The Laundress: Lindsey Boyd

In the late 1990s, while working in high-end fashion in NYC, Lindsey Boyd came to despise the weekly ritual of dry-cleaning; not only was it expensive, but it often did damage to her clothes. So she and college friend Gwen Whiting studied up on the science of dirty laundry to create The Laundress: a line of eco-friendly detergents gentle enough to be used at home on "dry-clean only" items like cashmere and silk. For years, the company operated on credit cards and faced hurdles like snoozing investors and counterfeiters. But The Laundress grew a loyal following, and in 2019, it was sold to Unilever for a reported $100 million. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.

• 0:45Guy Raz?

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• 1:30Guy Raz?

  based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?

• 2:14Guy Raz?

  So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea. What separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt.

• 2:54Guy Raz?

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• 3:36Guy Raz?

  The agents bring speed and scale and people bring taste, judgment and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities, it's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.

• 4:21Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 5:06Guy Raz?

  If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built. Hey there, it's Guy here. And really quick, before we start this brand-new episode of the show, How I Built This isn't just a podcast, but also a book. A book filled with stories and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs about the gift of failure, the beauty of ideas, and the path to building something meaningful. You can preorder the book right now, wherever you get your books,

• 5:50Guy Raz?

  or by visiting guyroz.com.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  We didn't find, there wasn't a partner that we had met that really understood the business. And actually, one of the meetings, the guy fell asleep on us. We were presenting to them.

• 6:06Guy Raz?

  Classy.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, classy. And he was trying to act like he wasn't sleeping, and we noticed right away. And we're like, really? We spent a lot of time presenting, and we're very passionate about our ideas, and then someone's falling asleep. That didn't really bode well with us.

• 6:27Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 6:39Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how two friends looked at a mountain of dirty laundry and saw a hole in the market, and how that turned into The Laundress, a line of detergents they sold for a reported $100 million.

• 6:58Guy Raz?

  A lot of people ask me to name the single thing that most entrepreneurs have in common. There's resilience, the ability to withstand rejection, unshakable optimism. You get my drift. But a much, much simpler example is that most of them, before they started, had day jobs: a desk, a phone, a boss, coworkers. And in a lot of cases, that day job was what inspired the business that they would come to be known for. Sadie Lincoln worked at 24 Hour Fitness for nearly a decade before she left to start her own

• 7:37Guy Raz?

  fitness brand, Bar Three. Alex Blumberg was a public radio producer for nearly 15 years before he left to found his own podcast company, Gimlet. Janice Bryant-Howroyd got a job temping as a secretary in LA in the late 1970s and eventually started her own employment agency called Act One. For Lindsey Boyd, it was a marketing job in fashion, first for Brooks Brothers and then for Chanel, that inspired her business. But not a fashion brand, even though, as you will hear, she did briefly have her own line of t-shirts. But instead, Lindsey's work in the fashion industry exposed her to a jaw-dropping amount

• 8:20Guy Raz?

  of dry cleaning. This was in the early 2000s, and it occurred to her that many of the solvents and chemicals used in dry cleaning were really bad for those delicate outfits. And that's where she thought there might be an opportunity. So for two years, she and her college friend Gwen Whiting dove into the science of dirty laundry, a quest that would lead them to develop a line of eco-friendly detergents that would eliminate the need to go to the dry cleaner. And in 2004, they launched The Laundress, a brand that now sells dozens of laundry products and accessories and has stores and customers around the world. But for the first six years, as you

• 9:03Guy Raz?

  will hear, they struggled to make a profit and even to keep the business afloat. They eventually did, of course, and in 2019, The Laundress was purchased by Unilever reportedly for $100 million. But long before she became an eco-cleaning mogul, Lindsey thought about becoming a biologist. She grew up in New York's Hudson Valley, and when it came time for college, she decided to major in marine biology at the College of Charleston in South Carolina.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  But I realized that while I loved science, it wasn't really the ultimate thing for me. I couldn't see myself doing that as a career. In the very beginning of my sophomore year, I said, this is not, I can't stay here. You know, this is not for me. I was taking extracurriculum activities at night in fashion. And then my childhood friend was at Cornell University at the textile program, and she said, you should, you should come here. You should look at this program. You would love it. So I went to visit her, and that was it. I mean, I fell in love with the program. I fell in love with the school, and I had the grades, and I got in.

• 10:18Guy Raz?

  So you, you went to Cornell to study textiles?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:22Guy Raz?

  What were you learning? Were you learning about the business of apparel or the science of textiles, or both?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Both, yeah. We were learning about, we were in a lab burning different fibers and finding out what the reaction was and different chemicals and understanding the chemical makeup of what cellulose is and cotton fibers and

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Really the technic, the scientific side of it. And then the other courses were around retail math and how to, you know, for more of a business side of it. I also did an independent study in color theory. And then art history and sort of fashion history too. So, understanding trends and forecasting. So it was a, it was a mix of everything that you would need to know to set yourself up. If you, you know, if you want to go into more of the scientific side of it, or the business side or design.

• 11:20Guy Raz?

  And when you were at college, I guess you met a person who would eventually, who will eventually feature in the story, Gwen Whiting. She was also in the program studying, studying apparel and textiles?

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. She was majoring in the design side of it.

• 11:37Guy Raz?

  And were you like in the same dorm? Or, or you just kind of met and became friends?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually our, the childhood friend I was speaking about before, she was friends with her, with Gwen. So that, at that point, we became friends and met and then, and that was it. I mean, there was no talk about doing a business in college or

• 11:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  anything of that nature, no.

• 11:58Guy Raz?

  And I should mention, we're going to hear about Gwen a little later on. But, but after college, I guess you went off and like did a bunch of different things. And what, what was your first job out of college?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  My first job was at Brooks Brothers.

• 12:11Guy Raz?

  Oh, right.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  I was in product development in the, in the high-end men's division. I like being hands-on, so I got to meet with the seamstress and then talk about textiles and got to go to all of the fabric mills and then price the collection. It was a lot, so much fun. I had the best time.

• 12:34Guy Raz?

  So you were at Brooks Brothers for about two years, I guess. And, and you get a job with Chanel?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:41Guy Raz?

  Chanel, no introduction needed.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:44Guy Raz?

  Did they, did you apply for it? Did they, did they recruit you?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  I found an ad in Women's Wear Daily.

• 12:50Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  I think it's like one of the few times they put an ad in. And I read that, that was my paper. And I didn't know anyone there. I just sent in my resume. And called them and called them and called them and then I got the job.

• 13:05Guy Raz?

  As a, as what?

• 13:06Speaker 01

  As a junior account executive in ready to wear.

• 13:11Guy Raz?

  And in, working in New York City?

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yes, working in New York City on Fifth Avenue, above the boutique.

• 13:17Guy Raz?

  This is gonna be a super dumb question and I'm super embarrassed to ask this because like I've been, you know, in media and journalism for more than 23 years. But I did not realize until I was doing prep for this interview, I'm so, I'm just gonna say this outright and be transparent with everyone listening. I just thought Chanel made bags and perfumes and sunglasses. I didn't know they made clothes.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  That's okay. I'm sure you're not the only one.

• 13:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah, but they make like coats and dresses. I mean, high design, expensive, very expensive stuff.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:45Guy Raz?

  And what does it mean to be a junior account executive in sales at Chanel? What do you actually do?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  So what we did was, we did a ton of trunk shows and what trunk shows are, are you basically schlep around a trunk of samples to different department stores and meet with customers that are coming to that store. And you sell the collection based on samples, you do pre-orders. So we did a ton of traveling. I think I was in a different place probably every two weeks doing that.

• 14:17Guy Raz?

  And you would show up with a trunk full of different sizes of different apparel and whoever showed up could, could buy them and maybe get like a, like a deal on it?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Well, not exactly. So we would show up with one size of the sample. It was a sample and the sample represented the size that the model wore during the runway show or, you know, the, the show in which it was represented in, in France. So, um, we would set up a rack of clothing and then we'd take orders and, um, that was...

• 14:54Speaker 01

  A big majority of what I did. So I had a lot of interaction with customers. I really enjoyed that. And we went to France. We got to go to all of the fashion shows.

• 15:03Guy Raz?

  Ooh.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

• 15:06Guy Raz?

  So pretty cool life and learning about this kind of brand. And I read that like, you know, you're doing this job at Chanel and you're kind of focused on it, but you still, you had like little side hustles, like you, you had like a couple of little businesses, like a hat box business.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:24Guy Raz?

  And then you started a t-shirt brand, like,

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:27Guy Raz?

  What, tell me about that. What was that?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  So I always had businesses on the side. I like to paint. And my mom had bought these boxes. They were cardboard recyclable boxes and they were kind of, they were called hat boxes, but I use them as storage boxes. And I was painting them and friends of mine were saying they wanted them. And I thought, oh, I should sell them. And so I did my own, I created my own website. I learned HTML, like kind of website building for dummies. I bought the website domain sassystorage.com and started selling them online, out of my apartment. And I did that for a little while and then I realized I didn't really know what I was doing. So I moved on.

• 16:13Guy Raz?

  The hat box business wasn't booming?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  The hat box business was not booming. No.

• 16:18Guy Raz?

  Got it. All right. So you knew, you know that this is not, sassy storage was not gonna

• 16:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:23Guy Raz?

  be the thing.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  No, it was not moving the needle for me.

• 16:25Guy Raz?

  Unless, unless you had the royal family as your, as your customers.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  That is correct.

• 16:30Guy Raz?

  Because they wore a lot of hats.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  I had to move to the UK.

• 16:33Guy Raz?

  So what, so what, what was the next business you came up with?

• 16:36Speaker 01

  So a friend of mine, we were tie dye, it was t-shirt business called Jessica Lindsey. Her name was Jessica. Obviously the other part is, is pretty obvious.

• 16:47Guy Raz?

  Lindsey, yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yes. And we were making tie dye t-shirts. We were just tie dyeing t-shirts. And people want to know where the t-shirt came from. And we were like, we made them in our bathroom.

• 16:57Guy Raz?

  And but were they just like tie dye t-shirts that many of us listening?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  They were Hanes tank tops.

• 17:02Guy Raz?

  Just Hanes t-shirts that you just? You took rubber bands and tie dye. Like, we'd learned at camp when we were kids?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:08Guy Raz?

  What was so special about them?

• 17:10Speaker 01

  We had an embellishment, like, I'm blanking on the name of what it's called. We had a machine, like a grommet machine.

• 17:21Guy Raz?

  Oh, and you could put gems and stuff?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  We were putting studs. Yes, we were doing rhinestones and studs around the collar.

• 17:29Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  To add a little, you know, we were bedazzling them.

• 17:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I love this.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so that was the main differentiator from the regular Hanes tie dye t-shirts.

• 17:44Guy Raz?

  Right. This is like the summer in the summertime of like 2000, 2001, 2002?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  In 2000.

• 17:52Guy Raz?

  What were you selling the shirts for, by the way?

• 17:54Speaker 01

  It depended on who we were selling it to. But ultimately, Saks Fifth Avenue and Henry Bendels bought them.

• 17:59Guy Raz?

  Wait, sorry. Wait. People are asking about your tie dye shirts that you made in your bathroom. Then you're selling them to Saks Fifth Avenue and Henry Bendel. There must be something that happened in between.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think we were selling them. We were selling them for basically nothing. You know, we were selling them for like $25 or something to friends and people that wanted them. Because it wasn't really about that for us. We were just, I mean, some petty cash, but not... We weren't quitting our day jobs, let's put it that way.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  We saw this demand, me being in sales, and she was also, she was actually in magazine, working for magazines.

• 18:40Guy Raz?

  This is your friend Jessica?

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And actually, we have an article that Time Out Magazine did on our t-shirts. That she helped secure that, yeah. And we saw the trend in the contemporary floors, where people were, this is when James Pierce t-shirts were coming out and $100 t-shirts were popular. So, we called on a few boutiques where we knew people.

• 19:05Guy Raz?

  And how many would they buy? Like, when you went to these buyers, would they say, yeah, we'll order 100 or 50? I mean, you were still making them with grommet, a grom machine in your apartment?

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Yes, in the basement of my friend's apartment. We were grommeting. My hand had blisters on them from pressing the machine.

• 19:23Guy Raz?

  And did they ask you, because you were doing your day job and you were working on this on the weekend, I guess, and did they ask you, like, I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of the Saks buyer, that, were they like, so tell me a little bit about your supply chain, or, you know, where you get your t-shirts?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 19:38Guy Raz?

  Nothing?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 19:40Guy Raz?

  They were like, great, we'll take 50?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:42Guy Raz?

  And what, and what did they price them at?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  They priced them around $80.

• 19:45Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we, we shifted our quality from Hanes to American Apparel.

• 19:51Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  So, we were buying them at wholesale in the Garment District and downtown and just buying them by the bundles. And we didn't have any space for the boxes that came for our Saks order that was like 550 shirts or some insane amount.

• 20:07Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  And we kind of looked around and we're like, wow, we're really in over our head here.

• 20:14Guy Raz?

  You guys had a real business. And, and these, this is called Jessica Lindsey, the brand, right?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yes, Jessica Lindsey, yes.

• 20:20Guy Raz?

  I mean, when you were working at Chanel as a, as an account executive, were, were other, other people, your colleagues must have been like, Lindsey, I, I was just at Saks, I saw your t-shirts, it's so cool that you're selling to Saks.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Well, it was something that I was very open about doing on my free time.

• 20:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  And nothing that anyone ever questioned because we worked our butts off at Chanel. So it wasn't as if, you know, it was literally weekends, that was it. And that's something that obviously parlay's really well into the laundress because we, we knew that, you know, you have to work in your free time whenever you can, yeah, to make it happen.

• 21:03Guy Raz?

  All right, here, no, okay, so you've got this successful brand selling at some big names, I mean, Saks, Bendel. I'm thinking, if I'm you at that time, I'm thinking, this is big, this has huge potential, this is going to be a huge brand. Why doesn't Jessica Lindsey exist anymore today? What happened?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  You know, it was one of those things where You need a lot of financing for fashion.

• 21:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  And it wasn't something that it was, well, something we loved and knew. It wasn't ultimately something that we were able to take to the next step.

• 21:38Guy Raz?

  So you just kind of, it just kind of fizzled out. It wasn't, because if I'm hanging out with you at that time, I would hope, I would say, Lindsey, this is amazing. Like, you can really, you've already done a lot of the hard stuff. But actually, that's not true, because the hard stuff is taking it to scale and really building it out.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Because you- Financing and capital and infrastructure. And we were, we were really loose about how we were doing the business at the time. We, you know, it was a hobby and then it became, before we knew it, we had these sacks. It was almost like a challenge. I don't, you know, I think timing is really important. And the timing just wasn't right.

• 22:22Guy Raz?

  I'm assuming you didn't really make a whole lot of money out of it in the end.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Not at all, no.

• 22:26Guy Raz?

  Did you, I mean, this to me seems like a really cool experience, right? In so many ways, because in some ways, it showed you that you could actually start something and gain some traction.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I knew that no matter what I do, I'm going to do it 100%. So that, that definitely helped gain confidence. That definitely solidified that I needed to do something on my own, especially when my career in fashion was like, this industry that I was in was so specific, high, high fashion, couture fashion, very few jobs available. So I looked around and thought, my boss isn't going anywhere. My boss's boss isn't going anywhere. And these are coveted jobs. And there's no reason why they would go anywhere. And there was no place for me to go.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Like, I had hit the, I was, I was managing my department and I had sort of like the highest role that I could possibly have there without taking someone else's job. And I just, I wanted more. I wasn't satisfied.

• 23:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Meantime, your friend Gwen Whiting that you meet in college, is she living in New York too at the time?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  She was in London and then she ultimately came back to the city to work for Ralph Lauren.

• 23:50Guy Raz?

  Got it. And were you guys hanging out?

• 23:51Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 23:52Guy Raz?

  And, and so did you start to think, I mean, when did you start to think first, not about the business you would eventually do, but just about maybe, maybe, maybe starting a business? Do you remember what, some of the ideas you had in your mind?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean Gwen and I both wanted to start a business together. And so that's when we started getting, we started thinking together and coming up with ideas of what to do. We had a fashion brand idea, but then we kind of, you know, fashion is tough because it's tough to, to chase the trends. It's tough to, you need a lot of capital for production and we put that aside. We thought, you know what? We like fashion, but I don't think that this is, you know, this is, this is not the idea. This is not the long-term thing for us. And then we looked into beauty and we had a beauty idea. We went, we actually went to manufacturers and-

• 24:45Guy Raz?

  Like lotions or cosmetics?

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Cosmetics, cosmetics, lipstick and blush and things like that. And we had some samples made. We met with manufacturers. We came up with colors and-

• 24:58Guy Raz?

  So you were really kind of grinding through different ideas?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it was fun for us, you know, and I think that's-

• 25:06Guy Raz?

  Gwen was, by the way, living in New York by this point?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  She was in New York. We were actually, at one point, we were squatting together in our friend's apartment and watching reruns of Seinfeld every night with like this horrible tacky poster on, one piece of artwork was a poster on our wall. I remember we put sweaters in our oven. Like we were, you know, typical 20 something with not a lot of money in an apartment in New York City.

• 25:34Guy Raz?

  What was the poster?

• 25:35Speaker 01

  It was of- This Olympic skier, it was an Olympic skier. Yeah, we got it free.

• 25:42Guy Raz?

  But it sounds to me that like both of you had a real design aesthetic, like we could, we could maybe design something that's really great, really nice.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were both very creative and both working at very strong brands, which obviously had an impact on our brand. And we ultimately came up with a laundress out of a need and a void that we saw, like a need that we had and a void we saw in the market. The concept of doing laundry was nothing that I ever thought I would get into, but the, the concept of the brand and the product, it ultimately made a lot of sense.

• 26:22Guy Raz?

  How did that idea even come to you? Like while you guys are kind of grinding through maybe if an apparel brand, maybe like a fashion brand, maybe cosmetics, how did this idea of coming up with detergents or laundry cleaning? Like, was that your first idea to come up with detergents? Or was it to actually have like a, like a store?

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, the first idea was a service, brick and mortar store. At the time, I was spending a ton of money on my dry cleaning and Gwen was taking the train to New Jersey to do her laundry at her mom's house. Because we didn't trust anyone to do the laundry, you know? We had to do it ourselves. I was hand washing in my sink.

• 27:05Guy Raz?

  And by the way, I'm assuming you got really good deals on Chanel apparel and she got really good deals on Ralph Lauren apparel. So that's, you had a lot of that fancy stuff.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  A lot of really nice stuff. Actually, we were spending more to clean the items than on the actual items. So it sounds crazy, but it was in fact, at the time, their sample sales were insane. They were incredible. And then really just and hand washing, even in college, I was hand washing, but washing with baby shampoo and anything super gentle. I didn't like, I didn't like anything that was in the market.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  And I knew because of my textile experience that I didn't have to. You know, I didn't have to dry clean. Silk is washable. Cashmere is washable.

• 27:51Guy Raz?

  Really?

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And Gwen had had this incredible experience in London, um, washing a cashmere sweater, or someone had washed a cashmere, a service, a cashmere washing service. And so that was sort of like the tipping point of, oh, well, we, a service is a great idea, but we don't, what do we know about service? We know nothing about service. We know product. We know how to sell product. And we know about how to create a brand. And so that was when we, the wheels started going, you know? We were kind of, okay, let's, let's, we need a product. We need like a, you know, a product that works like a baby shampoo, something that's gentle.

• 28:35Guy Raz?

  Basically, it sounds like you were, you were thinking of a, a kind of a service, a dry cleaning service, but not a, a laundry slash dry cleaning service for delicate clothing that would use very gentle cleaners for, for people. But then you thought, eh, this is going to be too, too hard to do because opening a brick and mortar store in New York in 2002, I guess, was already pretty hard and expensive for, for the vast majority of people.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Oh, way too expensive. So we kind of, we asked the hard questions of like, what are we doing? We, we don't have any money and, and leaving our jobs was not, not an option. We had to moonlight for two years. We, we weren't, um, you know, independently wealthy kids. Like we were, our parents were like, keep your, you know, are you, when we ultimately left our jobs, they thought we were, you know, were crazy.

• 29:25Guy Raz?

  We'll, we'll get there, but in, in 2002, when you guys sort of sat down and said, we, let's just focus on, like, how did you focus on, instead of having a, a store, focusing on cleaning products? Do you remember how you got to that, that decision?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Well, we went away from the service quickly when we realized that. We didn't have the infrastructure. We visited a local dry cleaner, Green Cleaners, where we took a tour of their facilities and we were trying to partner with them. And it just was way over our heads. And at the time, we were, both of us were traveling a lot for our jobs. And I would, my first stop would be the local pharmacies, the local grocery stores, to find out what products and scents that they had that we didn't have. And Gwen had that same passion. We would buy detergents, not just detergents, but deodorants and baby cologne and fragrances and products from all over the world when we would travel.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  And we were noticing these different trends and things that, and found products that were for delicates that we didn't have in the US, that we were using and testing on our Chanel items and on our cashmere.

• 30:41Guy Raz?

  All right, so you settle on, let's make a product that people can use at home.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:47Guy Raz?

  Okay. And it sounds like you had, you had experience just doing it yourselves, but I imagine if you were really going to do this and jump into this, you had to do some significant research because we're talking about science. I mean, it's, right, I mean, there's fibers and different textiles and there's different things that might-

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Chemicals.

• 31:06Guy Raz?

  Chemicals that react differently. So where was your first stop? I mean, where did you go? Who'd you call? Who'd you go see? What would you, because this is also kind of pre-internet. It's not pre-internet, but the internet wasn't really what it is now, 2002.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 31:18Guy Raz?

  So where did you go?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  So we contacted our, we went back to our school.

• 31:24Guy Raz?

  To Cornell.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Cornell. And but our first, before we actually physically went there, we contacted a professor. She was an associate dean at the time and one of our, she was never our professor, but she was a professor in detergency. And again, we knew these resources that Cornell had, right? That they had these-

• 31:43Guy Raz?

  A professor in what, in detergency?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Detergency, yes. There's a science of detergency.

• 31:48Guy Raz?

  Wow, this is a professor, this is a professor at Cornell?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Guy Raz?

  Who's a professor of detergency? That's incredible.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:55Guy Raz?

  And you went to this professor and you said what?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  We, well, we sent her an email and asked her, told her we had an idea and we wanted to talk to her about- Creating detergents. We called it Fabric Care. And she was over the moon, wrote us back immediately and said, absolutely. Let me know when you want to meet. And so we quickly scheduled our time. We spent a weekend up in Ithaca. When we arrived into her office, we, well, we arrived with two huge bags of detergents. Again, back to that collection of detergents that we had been buying over many years of during our travels.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  So from bleach and detergent, from Argentina, from France, from Greece, and some American brands and things that we had collected and we liked, or things that we were questioning because we didn't know what the ingredients said. We just didn't know what that meant. And she had on her table in her office, books stacked so high and sticky notes coming out of the books. And she said, where do you want to begin?

• 33:11Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  And Gwen and I looked at each other like, oh, my goodness. This is, did we really sign up for this?

• 33:19Guy Raz?

  What was the name of this professor again?

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Kay Obendorf.

• 33:23Guy Raz?

  So you started to do some research on what would work best? And what did you start to discover?

• 33:28Speaker 01

  We discovered that we would spend a ton of time at Kinko's making copies.

• 33:34Guy Raz?

  Right, of all these textbooks?

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Of all the textbooks. And Gwen and I split them up and we had highlighters and we highlighted all of the pertinent information and, or what we thought would be important to educate ourselves on molecular structures and what happens when a fiber hits bleach.

• 33:52Guy Raz?

  These are like, this is like, this is like the Harold McGee of fun food and science.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 33:57Guy Raz?

  This reminds me, by the way, of Ken Grossman, who started Sierra Nevada. He went to the Library of Chico State and just kind of buried himself in the science of beer brewing. You really, like, these were like academic papers with like models and equations and stuff like that, right?

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:13Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Chemical Society books that come out every year. I mean, those were what we were reading. We were reading them.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  We loved it, though. It was really interesting. We wanted, we didn't want to go to a manufacturer and just say, "Make something for us." We wanted to know what we were making. And I think that's what's woven into the whole business, is that we wanted to make sure we were in control of what we were making.

• 34:39Guy Raz?

  So let's for a moment, talk about when you say "delicates," like clothing that people dry clean, what are we talking about? We're talking about cashmere, silk, what else are we talking about?

• 34:49Speaker 01

  So it's silk, cashmere, woolens, silk blends, things that, I mean, a lot of people obviously dry clean suits and things with heavy construction, like evening gowns, things like that.

• 35:02Guy Raz?

  Right. You can't just throw it in the wash, yeah.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 35:05Guy Raz?

  And by the way, what is the problem with dry cleaning? I mean, does it destroy, did it destroy clothes? I mean, besides the expense, I mean, what was your argument for, you know, your stuff being better than dry cleaning?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so ultimately, the chemicals in dry cleaning are not great for you, for the environment, or for the clothing. Especially the clothing, it leaves, it's not even really cleaning it. It's a solution that will take care of stains, and it cleans it, but it's not really taking out odor. So it's not, and it's not properly preserving the fibers. So ultimately, for an example, is when you're dry cleaning a sweater versus washing it, the dry cleaner will strip all the natural oils of the yarn, whereas washing it will bring out all the natural oils and keep it nice and fluffy and soft, and the reason

• 36:00Speaker 01

  why we love cashmere. So those were things, and even with a silk fabric, it wasn't really the best way to ultimately preserve, and it degrades fabric over time.

• 36:13Guy Raz?

  And so you were, and you were taking, you were trying to figure out how different chemicals affect different materials?

• 36:21Speaker 01

  We were trying to figure out why the industry looked the way it did, and understand why certain chemicals and things were in the product, and if we really needed it or not. And at the same time, trying to find alternatives that would be safe to wash these things that always, that people always think they have to dry clean. One of the main things for us is that we were questioning everything that the industry was doing. So we were wondering, like, why is everything blue? Is that beneficial to it?

• 36:53Guy Raz?

  You mean the color was blue of the detergent?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Yes, the color of the detergent's blue. And we wanted to know why. Turns out, there isn't a reason why.

• 37:02Guy Raz?

  Oh, really?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  It goes back to bluing. Well, it goes back to people's perception of bluing agents. And that ultimately is a whitener.

• 37:10Guy Raz?

  Whitener, yeah, yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  So that's a very old thinking, but it's something that's stuck in the industry and it's still that way today. And so that helped us eliminate a lot of the things that were in the products at the time.

• 37:22Guy Raz?

  When you started to kind of come across things that might work and clean, in terms of cleaning, what kind of, what kind of ingredients did you come across?

• 37:33Speaker 01

  So enzymes. Enzymes were the real, and still are the differentiator for us. The products that work had enzymes. And ultimately, the ones that had more enzymes worked better.

• 37:48Guy Raz?

  Because they break down the stains.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  It breaks down the stains. Yes, exactly. And what we did, or what we do is we have, we have more enzymes and a higher concentration of them.

• 38:00Guy Raz?

  Where do you, what do you, I mean, I'm assuming you, both of you, you and Gwen decided, we gotta make some of this. Like, the guys who started Method Soap made it in their apartment in San Francisco. You gotta, like, make it.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:11Guy Raz?

  Like, where did you get the raw materials to kind of mix and mix your potions?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  We went to a, we went to a manufacturing show where they have contract manufacturers.

• 38:20Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  We wanted a concentrated product, less water, no color.

• 38:24Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  We didn't want any, you know, additives. We wanted it as a plant-based, no petroleum. And so we kind of, we identified all of those key things. And then we were able to come up with sort of the real recipe and formula.

• 38:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  To make everything not blow up, or, you know, we weren't, we weren't doing science projects in our kitchen.

• 38:45Guy Raz?

  Meantime, you're both still doing your day jobs.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:48Guy Raz?

  How are you financing? I mean, you go to, you want to get like a, a company, a manufacturer, to make you samples of what this could be. How are you paying for it?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  So initial, initial kind of crowdfunding before that was a thing, um, we threw what we called the soap splash and that was something, it was a for-profit party where we invited all of our friends and family and past boyfriends and current boyfriends and anyone that would show up. Um, we, we would say we served them wine and our idea and, um, we took donations at the door and we made all these really cute little cutouts of laundry hanging from a line and, and talked about, we didn't even have product at the time. We just kind of spoke about it.

• 39:35Guy Raz?

  And how much, do you remember like how much money did you?

• 39:38Speaker 01

  $10,000.

• 39:40Guy Raz?

  So these were not investors. It's just people helping out.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  This is just people helping out. And then ultimately we were able to secure an SBA loan of $100,000 and

• 39:51Guy Raz?

  How were you able to do that?

• 39:53Speaker 01

  We were able to do that through, well, we had really good credit and we also had our 401ks from our, from our jobs. So we were able to leverage, yes, that, um, which was really a blessing for us. We

• 40:12Guy Raz?

  Also scary because

• 40:13Speaker 01

  It is scary.

• 40:14Guy Raz?

  You're maxing out, putting in 15,000 bucks a year as a, as a young person and you were maybe getting a match from your, your company and you were putting that on the line, basically to get this loan.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  We put, we put everything on the line. We, you personally guarantee for everything. And, um, that was obviously a risk, but you know, we weren't scared of that. We were, we, we were so convinced that our idea was a home run. Um, and I think, but that's because it took two years of research and development before we actually left our jobs though. So that was like, we wanted some security, like we were risky, but it was more, it was a calculated risk a little bit.

• 40:55Guy Raz?

  And, and when people asked you, and they're like, Lindsey, tell me a little bit about the business that you're doing, what would you say? Well, we would just, we want to basically, we're making products that will kind of allow you to avoid the dry cleaner, to just do yourself.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, the initial elevator pitch, if you will, was that we were creating products that you could use for your everyday laundry, but, but most importantly, for things that you think you have to dry clean. And that was initially the conversation we had. And, you know, everyone wanted to know the price point. And the price point was, was mind blowing to people. And, and most, most people thought we were crazy.

• 41:32Guy Raz?

  Because, because why? What, what was the price point you had in mind?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  $20.

• 41:37Guy Raz?

  Wait, how much is a bottle of Tide? Like, like four or five bucks?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Tide is a, exactly. Yeah, depending on the size, but around that range.

• 41:44Guy Raz?

  And you were charging 20 bucks?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  20.

• 41:47Guy Raz?

  So people were like, what? You're nuts.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Nuts. Who wants laundry? Who wants, who wants that? It's laundry detergent. You know, what do you, who needs that? That's, that doesn't make any sense. That'll never do anything. People aren't going to invest in that. And, you know, there was definitely times where we were like, man, we're never going to get any financing or we're never going to get it, you know? How are we going to do this? Because people are just not buying our idea.

• 42:17Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, how Lindsey and Gwen managed to launch that idea despite the doubters, and how they would spend the next five years leapfrogging from one credit card to the next, just to keep the business from going under. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

• 42:52Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2004, and Lindsey and Gwen have just cobbled together about $100,000 to launch their first detergent products. And that money comes from all kinds of places, including a party they had for family and friends.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  And so that was the initial, initial hustle for us. And then we had the SBA loan, but we ultimately... Had a ton of credit cards that we were able to use to to continue building.

• 43:25Guy Raz?

  Nice.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  The business.

• 43:26Guy Raz?

  Just hopscotch from one to the next.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Yes, we got a lot. We had, I don't know, six different credit cards that we were using.

• 43:33Guy Raz?

  And by the way, what was the first product that you end up launching with?

• 43:36Speaker 01

  The, we launched with 13 products.

• 43:39Guy Raz?

  Wow, okay. So like different cleaners for different fabrics?

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. So we, we had all our signature detergent, which is like for every day. And then we divide, then the rest of it was more novelty. So products like delicate washable and cashmere. And we, we wanted to launch with a start to finish laundering experience, all in one scent, because there wasn't that experience for people. And so that created obviously more than just a few products to launch with.

• 44:11Guy Raz?

  How many actual bottles of things did you order? Like 5,000, 10,000, do you remember?

• 44:18Speaker 01

  We ordered about 250 of each SKU. A very small run. We were able to partner with a small manufacturer. That's not typical. Usually the, the runs are very high, but like at the time, it was like all we could possibly handle. Like there was no way that we were going. I mean, that would last us almost a year, six months to a year.

• 44:42Guy Raz?

  All right. So, so you, both of you guys still had some connections in the fashion world, because I mean, you had experience selling your t-shirts to Saks and, and, and you'd worked, you were, you were Chanel. So you were working with people who were buying Chanel products. And was the idea that you would sell the laundress products at stores like Saks and, and Bloomingdale's and, and Bendel? And was that the idea initially?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I, yes, it was definitely what can we tackle first? So that list consisted of friends of friends who had a boutique in the Hamptons, for instance, or, or in our, in our towns that we, that we grew up in, or even local stores in New York City. And then Bergdorf Goodman, they were a client of mine at Chanel. And that was a whole nother, I mean, going into department stores with a luxury detergent, if you know what a department store outline or layout looks like, it doesn't, there's no laundry section.

• 45:45Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  So while I had all of these contacts at department stores, it wasn't that simple. I had to speak to almost five or six different departments before anyone really even knew what to do with me or the product.

• 45:58Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  And even then, they didn't know what to do. I mean, I was selling the product at the cash register, you know, at the, at the counter because in order to get them to believe in that the product needed to be there.

• 46:13Guy Raz?

  I guess Bergdorf Goodman was your first big client to say, all right, we'll, we'll, we'll put this up there. How did you get into Bergdorf Goodman?

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Well, first I spoke with the lingerie buyer, um, because I, we, we were selling Delicate Wash. So this is a product that was very commonly found for women for washing lingerie. And then I was able to navigate, once I had credibility with the lingerie buyer, I was able to look at being with the cashmere buyer, and then ultimately with the beauty buyer, which is where everyone would want to be, you know, as far as selling a product like that. And the beauty buyer at the time loved the brand, loved the idea. And, you know, they had an exclusive, we gave them an exclusive for six months, um,

• 47:01Speaker 01

  to be the only people selling the laundress. And this worked out really well.

• 47:07Guy Raz?

  And by the way, were you keeping absolutely silent about this? Did people know that you were working on this?

• 47:11Speaker 01

  No one knew.

• 47:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  I wanted to make sure that my job was secure if, if I ultimately didn't take the leap or, um, I always wanted, I always had a plan B. I had a plan B for five years into the laundress. I always wanted to make sure that I was going to be. Relevant in my industry and be able to get another job.

• 47:33Guy Raz?

  Because you would not quit the job, your job yet.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 47:36Guy Raz?

  You needed that income.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  I needed that income. I needed that job and I wanted that job.

• 47:43Guy Raz?

  By the way, I read that you had this really uncomfortable moment at Bergdorf Goodman. Because when you went there to pitch your laundry products, apparently you ran into another Bergdorf buyer who knew you from Chanel.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  So I actually, I actually, at that same time, I ran, the woman that let me in, you know, through the security, I passed by my buyer's office, the, meaning the Chanel buyer that I work with, to get to this new buyer that I was meeting for the laundress. She was like, oh, do I have an appointment with you? I was like, no, no, no, I'm meeting with someone else. And I just kind of like, just hurried by, like, there was no, it was really awkward, really uncomfortable.

• 48:28Guy Raz?

  Because she was like, hey, what are you doing here?

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. She thought, am I, am I meeting you?

• 48:32Guy Raz?

  And what did you tell her?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  I said, no, no, no, I'm, I'm, no, I'm meeting with somebody else. Like, we're good, you know, and she, she didn't even question it.

• 48:40Guy Raz?

  Were you nervous that she was going to blow your cover?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  I was very nervous. But no, she didn't, it happened so quickly. And honestly, I left there so excited because they wanted the laundress that I think, at that point, I didn't really care.

• 48:56Guy Raz?

  And when, when did you pull the trigger on quitting your job? Like, right before you launched?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:02Guy Raz?

  Did anybody you know, your family or anybody say, are you sure you want to do this?

• 49:08Speaker 01

  My mom. She said, are you sure? You know, she, like, over and over again. And, you know, my family never doubted what I could do or couldn't do. But I, I think they were worried because then I was going to be their problem. And I think Gwen's family questioned her as well. I mean, this was, we were leaving coveted jobs and places we were very happy at. But we were passionate and then ultimately they supported that.

• 49:42Guy Raz?

  So you quit your job and you launched this, this thing. And was it like, you know, gangbusters? Was it, you know, just a frenzy to buy your stuff? Like all of a sudden, everybody going for the laundries? Or was it come more like crickets?

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Definitely not a frenzy. It was really difficult to get people on board. We had to, I mean, there was, there were moments when I made a list of stores to call and I would be calling and calling and calling and people wouldn't call me back. So I would go to the store to meet the buyer. And we're talking about boutiques now, the smaller boutiques, because that is the majority of our business. It was really the bulk of how the brand was built. I actually, there was a store in the West Village that I, that we really wanted to be in because the positioning was really good for our brand. And he refused to call me back. So I showed up with the products and I spent the whole day there.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  And I said, just let me sell the product for you and you don't have to take it after. I just want to show you that this is where our product should be. And ultimately he was one of our best clients in, in New York.

• 50:50Guy Raz?

  You, when you launched this, I mean, you, you, from what I understand, you had, you launched it with about a hundred and $10,000. So I'm assuming you're thinking, we need to make money quickly to be able to pay our bills and expand and make more product. But from what I understand, like the first, at least three years and probably four years, you were not profitable. You were actually losing money every year.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Right, that is true. We weren't making any money. We didn't take a salary. We had to write down what our bills were and, and pay our bills and that's it, you know? So we didn't lose our apartments. But we ultimately, between 2004 and 2008, we worked with rep groups. So different people that would sell the product for commission. So we positioned our products within showrooms in Dallas, in Atlanta, in LA, in New York.

• 51:46Guy Raz?

  Like showrooms of what?

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Showrooms where they had other brands. So linen, like bedding showrooms that where it would make sense for someone buying linens and bedding, that they would buy our product. We were also in fashion showrooms where there was clothing and then they would buy our products. So we positioned ourselves in places like that and we did a ton of trade shows.

• 52:10Guy Raz?

  So you had, you had to depend only on income from this business. But how did you, if you were not getting any income, how were you like paying your rent and buying food and stuff?

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Well, we had to pay our rent as a bill. It was like part of our, you know, accounts payable. So through, through our business in that way. Because everything was, everything was personally guaranteed, our credit cards. We used credit cards. And then we would look at our, our bills and our finances and say, okay, what, who needs to get paid first? You know, what's going to be cut off first? But we had orders coming in. So there was always a flow of cash. It's just that we weren't, anything that we made went back in, you know, back into the business. It wasn't like in our pocket.

• 52:57Guy Raz?

  Right. And, and just curious, in, in those, in those early years when you weren't making money, did you ever, were you ever tempted to, to, to try and get outside money just to make sure you didn't collapse?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  No, we, we were able to, we had, we had money coming in. So it wasn't, we weren't concerned about collapsing. We probably could have done a lot more at a faster pace. Not probably, we definitely could have. But we. We wouldn't have the same amount of control. Our brand would most likely look very different today.

• 53:32Guy Raz?

  Is, I mean, when, when, when you, when investors eventually started to make pitches to you who want to invest, what, why did you conclude that it was not in your interest to take the money?

• 53:43Speaker 01

  They weren't gonna, they weren't gonna give us enough money to get, they wanted a lot of, they wanted a high percentage. They wanted a lot of equity for not, and not giving us that much money. And ultimately, the, what we were gonna do with that money wasn't gonna get us faster in sales. So, wasn't gonna get us to where we needed to be any faster.

• 54:05Guy Raz?

  So you were, you were getting some, like, firm saying, we'll give you a million dollars for 25%.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Right. So we would lose control, but not, we weren't gonna be, you know, a hundred million dollar company overnight. So, or whatever, you know, and just throwing that number out there. But like, it wasn't going to be, we weren't gonna get there any faster. And we were really happy with the, the direction of the brand.

• 54:27Guy Raz?

  Did you, did you feel like, I mean, when, when, when you would go to these firms and they offered you, you know, a little bit of money for a huge equity stake, did you walk out of those meetings just feeling like, undervalued and irritated?

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Yes, all the time. And actually, one of the meetings, the guys fell asleep on us when we were presenting to them.

• 54:50Guy Raz?

  Classy.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Classy, yeah, classy. And he was trying to like, act like he wasn't sleeping and, and we noticed right away. And we're like, really? And we, we spent a lot of time presenting and, and we're very passionate about our ideas. And then someone's falling asleep. That didn't really bode well with us. We didn't find, there wasn't a partner that we had, that we met that really understood the business. I think that becomes, that was something that if we found a partner that really got it, I think. That storyline would have been a little different.

• 55:26Guy Raz?

  I read that, like, I guess there's one instance where like, one of the customers you had went behind your back directly to your, to the factories that were making your product and had them white label the same products for them. Is that true?

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:40Guy Raz?

  What's, how did that happen?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Well, we had our, it was probably around 2006. We started selling to Russia. And it seems random, but it's not really random because Gwen had lived in Russia and we had some contacts there and there were some really beautiful stores there that, that we knew the laundress would be, you know, perfect for. And we found a distributor to sell the product to all of these stores. We did a huge launch and event. It was so much fun in Moscow and success like

• 56:20Speaker 01

  very quickly in that market. And so much so that we, you know, not having capital, like, we really couldn't keep up with the, the demand. And we also couldn't give anyone special payment terms. We needed the payment terms, you know? We were the ones that were, the ones that, you know, were struggling in that regard. And a lot of the distributors want, want to give payments over a period of time. And we really needed to be paid in advance before we shipped any goods, especially overseas. What if we never saw that money?

• 57:01Speaker 01

  So this specific distributor went directly to our manufacturer.

• 57:08Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  And he was buying the product from our manufacturer at a lower price.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  And so

• 57:16Guy Raz?

  Is that legal, by the way?

• 57:17Speaker 01

  No, no, it's not legal.

• 57:19Guy Raz?

  So what did you do?

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Well, what do you do when you don't have a lot of money to legally go after somebody? We confronted the manufacturer, we confronted the distributor, and we just stopped working with him. We owned our formulas and we went somewhere else.

• 57:38Guy Raz?

  I guess you didn't really have money to sue.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, suing him would have been a long headache and a lot of money. And we needed to move forward. And ultimately, the distributor that we were working with then, come to find out, which is even worse than what he was doing with the manufacturer, was that he was making counterfeit product.

• 57:59Guy Raz?

  Oh, my God.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  And we found out from a client because she had a rash. Those are the moments when we thought, oh, my goodness. How are we ever going to recover from this? You know, that was definitely a struggle for us.

• 58:16Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  So we had immediately said to the client, can I see the bottle? Can you send me the bottle? And so it turns out it wasn't our formulation. It was our branding, our name. So, you know, it looked like it was our product. And the same distributor that was selling our product

• 58:38Speaker 01

  was making additional units because he had a demand and he wanted to satisfy. And he didn't care, he was sacrificing, he was buying it cheaper, poor quality, and selling it. So we had both products in the market. So he was leveraging himself as being a licensed distributor of the laundries, because he was, and then selling counterfeit product at the same time. Yeah. So that, you know, we, early on, had all of our name trademarked in any country that we were sold to. So we owned the licensing and the trademarks. And when you have a distributor, you allow them to use your name and all those things.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  But it was really hard for our trademark lawyer to pin that down. And ultimately, it would have cost way too much money for not a lot of results. So we pulled from them and...

• 59:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  And luckily, it didn't become a global issue for us.

• 59:38Guy Raz?

  So while you were, I mean, you're trying to kind of get awareness, you're kind of the, I guess, the trajectory was good because you're growing.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 59:48Guy Raz?

  What was the turning point? I mean, I guess by 2008, you finally became profitable.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:55Guy Raz?

  I think you did 1.8 million dollars in sales and that's revenue. So, so maybe, you know, maybe you, you know, your, your expenses were like 1.7 million that year. So you were finally profitable, which meant that you and Gwen could finally take a salary. Maybe it was $50,000 each or $40,000 each. And what, what, what was the turning point? Was there anything in particular that got you to profitability?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yes, a few different things. We, well, our e-commerce business was continuing to grow and then we were also expanding globally. We signed up in 2006 with our first distributor in, in Europe. We also were able to get into areas of Asia as well. Some of our first clients were in Hong Kong as well as Tokyo.

• 1:00:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  So we were able to be profitable, take salaries, start hiring employees and running like a real business.

• 1:01:01Guy Raz?

  When you kind of turned a profit, was that, was that kind of the beginning of profitability from that point forward? Was it just, did you just grow? Because 2008, 2009, that's a financial crisis.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's a weird time for us because we were growing and it was a horrible time for, you know, our, our US business wasn't really growing at all. So we had to pivot quickly and focus on, we always had a diverse business portfolio from international, US retail, and then e-comm. And so we put a lot of our energy and focus on this, the, the markets or the clients that were doing well in the US. We put a lot of energy in them. So like really the bigger stores. And we looked to our international partners and spent a lot of time going over there and, and meeting the customers and putting

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  a lot of energy in those markets that were doing well. And this is something that

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  I think was really, really is important for brands to to think about and, and you know, having just one way for revenue, it can be really tough. I think about that now, too, during quarantine and what everyone's going through. It's very, um, it's important to to be creative and and think about, think of all the angles of what you're doing. Because if we were only sold in the US boutiques, we would not have come out of that the way we did.

• 1:02:34Guy Raz?

  So you're growing and the growth is organic. It sounds like it's organic. And and by, I guess, what, 2015, you open a store, a brick and mortar store?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:47Guy Raz?

  And that was entirely financed just by the revenue that the company was generating?

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And that was the initial plan. We wanted the service in the store. We wanted to really show the lifestyle of laundry and have a place where people could go and ask questions and and try the products and smell the products. The scent experience is really, really important to our brand. And scent in general for detergents are very important to to clients and customers. I mean, they're they're very nostalgic and it makes them think of their, you know, our baby detergent people still use even though they don't have babies anymore, you know? It makes them think of that time. And I think coming from brands

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  with stores, it was something we always kind of dreamed of. We didn't know when that was going to happen. And and actually, our first store wasn't wasn't in New York City. It was in, um, Senjuku Station in Tokyo, Japan.

• 1:03:46Guy Raz?

  Really?

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Um, yes, a tiny little place. It's still there. It's fantastic. So they were the first people on board with having a having a laundress retail store and then New York, and then we have Seoul, Korea as well.

• 1:04:00Guy Raz?

  Yeah, why? I mean, it's interesting. Why? Why Seoul and Tokyo? Is there is there is that is the product is really resonating?

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Very strong markets.

• 1:04:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Very strong markets for us.

• 1:04:11Guy Raz?

  What explains that?

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Their tremendous understanding of fashion and their love for clothing. They are fanatics about caring for their wardrobe. So they jumped on board quickly and so did Europe as well, a lot faster than the US market.

• 1:04:30Guy Raz?

  So you guys are expanding, you're profitable, but, but I guess around like 2018,

• 1:04:37Guy Raz?

  you start thinking about finding a buyer for your brand.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Guy Raz?

  And, and why? Were you, were you both just like kind of done? Like, were you just really, I mean, I mean, you worked like insanely hard and you were, you just kind of burned out and is that, is that why?

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  It was more about us, it had to happen, otherwise we weren't going to be able to grow any bigger than we were. And I think

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  we

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  were scared about giving, you know, having an outside investor because we didn't know what that looked like. I mean, we were, we've been doing this for 15 years. It's like, what is that going to look like to us? We heard really scary stories from friends of ours that had businesses for a long time and we, you know, a lot of our friends that are successful and they're unhappy, they're miserable. And so, you know, I'm talking about not a startup getting money, but like being in this business and living and breathing it every day for 15 years and then having an outside partner come in and tell you to do things differently. It's not received well, I don't think. So we,

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  that was something that we explored and we had three different companies come to us with interest of

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  buying us and, and partnering with us. So the timing was just really meant to be and we were ready.

• 1:06:08Guy Raz?

  You got an offer from, that you accepted from Unilever?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:06:13Guy Raz?

  They bought your brand reportedly for a hundred million dollars and, and kept you on, you would stay on. I'm, I'm still working there. You're an employee of Unilever now.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:23Guy Raz?

  Running the business, but with, with Unilever behind you, you're now, I mean, it was one of the biggest multinationals in the world. I mean, the sky's the limit. You could probably scale in, in any way you want to.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  So it's interesting because that's the potential.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  But in the beginning, you know, it's really about keeping the brand integrity and the identity and the way that they work is that they really are adamant about keeping the brand separate, but obviously joined, but separate in the sense where we're still have our same office, we still have all the same employees and our DNA looks and feels the same. We have additional resources, but we are, we do really kind of run on our own still. So while scaling will happen, it's not, oh, you acquire, you get acquired and like poof, you're an overnight sensation. Like it's not, it doesn't work that quickly.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  And so navigating that has, that's the challenge now to really take what they have at our disposal and scaling.

• 1:07:34Guy Raz?

  When you, I mean, when you think about this journey you took and what happened, I mean, you know, you sold this company, made a lot of money. It was not a guaranteed slam dunk. It was a slow burn. It took a long time before you were able to really become profitable. There's a lot of stress. Do you think that the success of this company had to do with how hard you and Gwen worked? Or do you think some of it had to do with luck?

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  I think it had to do with the success of, I mean, how hard we worked. The success came from the hard work. Luck, you know, we carved out, we just, we went into an industry, like we disrupted a multi-billion dollar industry. I mean, we, we definitely were ahead of our time and, you know, and pioneering a product that didn't exist. Yeah, I think, I don't know. It depends on your definition of luck. I think you create your own luck.

• 1:08:35Guy Raz?

  Does, I mean, you, you really kind of struggled for so long with this business. And even when you could pay yourself, I can't imagine you ever really were able to pay yourself huge amounts of money, maybe, maybe it's more significant towards the end, but never, you know, I'm assuming, you know, this Unilever thing, it made you and Gwen rich. I mean, probably beyond what you ever imagined. Was that weird? Did that, did that kind of change the way you? Uh, I don't know, lived or, you know?

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think, um, because it was something, so, you know, along the journey, we saw a lot of our friends excel and save money and buy homes and, and all these things. And we weren't able to save. We didn't have any money to save. We were, all our money was going back into the business. So I think ultimately our goal of selling to a strategic was kind of our way of saving, if you will. Like, we knew, like, investing this, like, you know, everything into a business would ultimately pay off. And that was what happened.

• 1:09:40Guy Raz?

  That's Lindsey Boyd, co-founder of The Laundress. The company now sells more than 80 products, and they've expanded beyond just fabric care to include household cleaners as well. And while so many companies are suffering during the current economic crisis, Lindsey says their business is actually up by 150% because people are stuck at home doing cooking, cleaning, and, yes, laundry. If you go to a barbecue, by the way, would you still be comfortable wearing white?

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:15Guy Raz?

  You would. You'd do that. You'd wear white to a barbecue.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  I have a white sofa with two small children.

• 1:10:19Guy Raz?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  My whole house, my house is white.

• 1:10:23Guy Raz?

  My dog just threw up on our sofa. It's gray. What do I do? Quick. What do I do? It really happened.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Really? You need stain solution and bleach alternative?

• 1:10:30Guy Raz?

  Right away. Just go on there.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  No, you don't have to worry about the right away thing.

• 1:10:33Guy Raz?

  Oh, oh, good.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  You can do it later. A stain will still come out if it's properly treated.

• 1:10:41Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also write to us at [email protected]. If you want to send a tweet, it's at How I Built This or at Guy Raz. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks also to J.C. Howard, Candace Lim, Derek Gales, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.