Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Live From The HIBT Summit: Sara Blakely Of Spanx About this episode Our first episode from the 2019 How I Built This Summit features Sara Blakely, founder of Spanx. In front of a live audience, she tells Guy how she stayed confident in the earliest days of building the business, and why one day she still wound up sobbing on the floor of Office Depot. Every Thursday through the new year, we'll release new episodes from the HIBT Summit, so keep checking your podcast feed! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:03 Guy Raz? Today, we're releasing the very first interview from the 2019 How I Built This Summit, which happened in October in San Francisco. And I just want to say, it was super, super inspiring to have so many How I Built This founders gathered together in the same place at the same time for two days. People like Mike Krieger and Kevin Systrom of Instagram, Jen Rubio of Away, Stuart Butterfield of Slack, and many, many others. And they all sat down with me in front of a live audience and just talked, really honestly and openly, about the excitement and terror and challenges of starting a business, sharing lots of new ideas and stories along the way. And today's episode is with Sarah Blakely, founder of Spanx.
0:47 Guy Raz? If you haven't heard the original episode, you may want to go back and give it a listen. It was our very first and still one of our favorites because, really, it is such a crazy success story. With absolutely no experience in fashion or design, Sarah set out to create this new kind of undergarment, one that sort of smooths out the lumps and bumps under your clothes. Today, of course, Spanx is an international brand, and Sarah is a billionaire. And what you'll discover here is that she's also super open about the strategies she used to stay confident and optimistic when she was just getting started. I want to go back to 1998, when you first were experimenting, when you cut the feet and the legs off pantyhose
1:30 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:31 Guy Raz? and began to design what would become eventually Spanx. And on the podcast, you said something to me that I've never forgotten, and I'm going to quote here. You said, "Ideas are at their most vulnerable when they're brand new."
1:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:42 Guy Raz? In other words, that's when people say, "Oh, it's not going to work. It sucks. It's stupid. Forget it. If it's so great, why didn't other people do it?" You decided not to, pretty much not to tell anybody, to keep it a secret. And it was for that reason? Because you knew that you would be discouraged?
1:57 Speaker 01 Yes. Now, I shared my idea with people who could help me move it forward, like a patent attorney, the people in the manufacturing plants. But I decided I wasn't going to tell anybody just to say, "Hey, what do you..." You think of this for a while. Ideas are the most vulnerable in their infancy. And we all have amazing ideas. I'm a believer that everybody in their lifetime has at least one million dollar idea, maybe even a billion dollar idea. But it's our inclination as humans to immediately turn to our right or left and say to our friend or coworker, our husband and wife, and say, hey, I have this idea, what do you think? And out of love and concern, they'll say, well, you know, if it's such a great idea, why hasn't anybody done it? Or things like that.
2:41 Speaker 01 And then you end up spending all of your time defending it and explaining it rather than pursuing it. And so I pursued the idea of Spanx for one year before I told anybody. I sat my family down, I said, guys, you ready? All they knew was Sarah's working on some crazy idea, they didn't know what it was. And I sat them down and I said, okay, you ready? It's footless pantyhose. Right. You can imagine the response. They were like, what? And then I got all the, out of total love, you know, if it's such a good idea, Sarah, why doesn't it already exist? And, you know, honey, even if this is a good idea, you're going to spend your $5,000 in
3:22 Speaker 01 savings and within six months, the big guys could just knock you right out of the water. And I think, I really believe, Guy, that had I heard that in the minute that I had the idea and cut the feet out of my pantyhose, I really think I would not have started Spanx.
3:37 Guy Raz? You think if you would have told people, or family and friends, or the people whose sort of judgment, you know, could have affected you, you would have given up?
3:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, or I just would have been easily let that one fly right out the window and just been like, yeah, okay, maybe you're right. But I also, I had set intention for an idea two years before this, and that also helped me. So I sold fax machines door to door for seven years, and I was always kicked out of buildings, people would rip up my business card in my face all the time. And one day, I had had such a particularly bad day, I pulled off the side of the road, and that's when I thought, I'm in the wrong movie. Like, call the director, call the producer, call the writer. This is not my life. And I wrote down what I was good at in my apartment. I'm like, what are you good at, Sarah? And in my good column was sales. And I started asking myself, what is it about sales that I like?
4:29 Speaker 01 And I realized I really liked selling somebody something that they needed or would improve their life. And I wrote down, I'm going to invent something that I can sell to millions of people that will make them feel good. And then I looked up and I said, I need the idea. And so, two years later, when I cut the feet out of my pantyhose to go to a party, I had never worked in fashion or retail, but I cut the feet out and I solved this undergarment issue, kind of, because they rolled up my legs all night. But, you know, I looked smooth, I had no lines, and I thought this should exist for women. But because I had set that intention and been so clear with the universe two years prior and said, please give me the idea.
5:11 Speaker 01 You know, I believe ideas are gifts from the universe, and I think they're very precious. And I think the minute we get them, we should write them down instantly. I've been carrying the same style notebook with me for 20 years, and now I mostly use my phone, but I keep a log of every thought and idea that I think could potentially be something.
5:30 Guy Raz? You know, I think about your story a lot because in those early days where you were going door to door, selling fax machines, getting doors slammed in your face, I wonder if that built resiliency. Did you have to be exposed to that kind of rejection in order to be able to start this company?
5:47 Speaker 01 100%. I believe that cold calling is one of life's greatest trainings.
5:52 Guy Raz? Wow.
5:53 Speaker 01 I had to learn how to be quick on my feet. I had to learn how to win somebody over quickly. I had to learn to get to the heart of the matter in a sales scenario very quickly, which is when I learned what's in it for them and get to the point very quickly and don't sell the product, sell the problem you're solving. I learned all this through massive mega trial and error and door after door slamming in my face. And that helped me so much with Spanx because for the first two years, I was working on Spanx at night and on the weekends while I was still selling fax machines by day. And that, I got told no for two years.
6:27 Guy Raz? All the time.
6:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, it was basically no. Which I just want to point out, if you invent something, or if you're an innovator, it means you're doing something that's different than how everybody else is doing it, you're going to hear the word no. That's cool.
6:43 Guy Raz? If, I mean, if you, say you had told people about this idea, people who loved you and cared about you, maybe some of them would have said, "Hey, you know, Sarah, why don't you go work for a fashion company for a couple of years and get experience in the industry and learn about it and learn the ins and outs, and then, you know, you'll know what to do, you'll have connections and so on." But I wonder if, in some ways, you had sort of an intuitive advantage, given that you, I mean, you told me on the show, you didn't know anything about the industry.
7:11 Speaker 01 Right. I mean, that's really logical advice to give.
7:14 Guy Raz? Right.
7:15 Speaker 01 Especially as a parent to a child. Like, go get experience before you go do this.
7:20 Guy Raz? Right.
7:21 Speaker 01 So, there's a very high likelihood I, you know, would have heard that right away. And, you know, one of the things, my life was so bad when I was selling fax machines door to door, and I had this conversation one time with my dad, and he said, "Honey, you know, you live in Atlanta now, go get a job at CNN, or go work at Coke." And this voice inside of me said, "But then I might be content." And, and I thought, "I need to be miserable right now." Like, I need to stay miserable, because if I stay in rock bottom and I'm this unhappy, I'm gonna ensure that I am willing to take some sort of a leap that terrifies me.
8:02 Guy Raz? But, I mean, even early on, you didn't ask for permission. I mean, you didn't ask for permission when you went to Neiman Marcus. I mean, your products were on display in sort of the back of the hosiery section, and you surreptitiously moved them next to the cash register.
8:17 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:18 Guy Raz? So people would notice them. You didn't ask for permission, and you, it was almost like you were fearless. You wouldn't, you weren't worried about the consequences of, of doing those kinds of things.
8:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm definitely not fearless. I'm courageous. And there's a big difference. I'm afraid of so many things. Like, those days that I moved the stand when no one gave me permission to, I was shaking. But I believe the difference is that courage is doing things despite fear, and, you know, we build our courage muscle by continuing to just face it and do it. But I was terrified during all of those steps. I will say that I think being an entrepreneur and charting your own course, especially if you're going to be doing things different than how everybody else does it, which is where real change and innovation for society and the world happens, you have to be someone who is willing to ask for forgiveness, not permission.
9:11 Speaker 01 And I still, I still live my life that way. You know, I, I feel like there were so many fundamental things that happened in the early days where I would just ask for forgiveness.
9:22 Guy Raz? If Spanx had not gotten any traction in the first few years, do you think you would have persisted and kept going?
9:33 Speaker 01 Yes, I mean, when you said that, I just was looking at you so confused because I'm like, of course it would get traction because I was making the traction. I went to every department store in the country that bought Spanx to sell it and sold it for them. I stood in the store from 8:30 in the morning until 7:00 at night every day, selling my own product to ensure it was a success. And then the other thing I did, Guy, was I was buying my own product. So I was sending checks
10:01 Guy Raz? Right.
10:01 Speaker 01 to all of my friends around the country to go buy Spanx. So it was like, I was 100% sure it was gonna take off.
10:09 Guy Raz? Right.
10:11 Speaker 01 I mean, literally, I would call friends and I'd say, hey, it's Sarah. Can you go into Neiman Marcus in Dallas and look like you love this product called Spanx and buy it and I'll mail you a check? I mean, you have to. And then I would go stand in the department stores and I would be selling the product. And I realized that a lot of people just would ignore me. So I would ask friends to come over to Neiman's on their lunch break just to stand by my table and look interested.
10:38 Speaker 01 Because energy begets energy. So then all of a sudden, my friends, I'd be like, Q, go! And they'd be like, wow, this looks so interesting! And all of a sudden, all these shoppers would come over and, you know, I'd have to like push my friends aside and be like, okay, good. So.
10:53 Guy Raz? I mean, when you think about the arc of the story, right? You launched the product and within two years, Oprah is talking about it. I mean, it sounds like, just a flash, like so quickly. Did it feel like it was fast at the time or did it feel like a sort of a slow burn?
11:10 Speaker 01 The development of the product felt very slow. It took two years and I was working at night and on the weekends. But then, once I had the product made, it did feel like it was very fast. I mean, I quit my job on October 16th and Oprah called me in the beginning of November.
11:27 Guy Raz? Wow.
11:28 Speaker 01 And chose Spanx as her favorite product of the year.
11:31 Guy Raz? Which, of course, it blew up, right?
11:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
11:34 Guy Raz? You had an apartment in Atlanta at the time and you were stacked, boxes stacked and...
11:37 Speaker 01 I did, it was really a wild time.
11:40 Guy Raz? Yeah.
11:41 Speaker 01 I was the fulfillment house. So I had semi trucks coming to my apartment twice a week with boxes of Spanx. And I didn't have a website and you know, of course Oprah shows like, "You have a website, right?" Because that's a requirement to be a favorite thing. I was like, "Yes, yes I do." I had like six days to build a website. I didn't know what I was doing, I didn't know anything. I actually took a color copy of the packaging I had created on my friend's computer and scanned it and that was the homepage of my website for a year and a half.
12:10 Guy Raz? Sarah, as you know, the theme of this conference is kindness and collaboration. We deliberately wanted that to be the theme because it seems so un-businesslike and-ish and we want, we think that this show, people like you, the founders we've had on the show, really are redefining what it means to run a business, an ethical business and a kind company and a collaborative company. Can you share just one quick story of kindness, an act of kindness that you experienced when you, you know, when you were trying to ramp this thing up?
12:41 Speaker 01 I mean, there's, where do I begin? There's so many acts of kindness, that's the reason that I'm sitting here. But when I first started Spanx, it was about three months after I started it, I was at a cocktail party and three guys came up to me and they said, "Sarah, so we heard you invented something." And I said, "Yes, I did, I'm so excited." And one of the guys put his hand on my shoulder and he said, "Yep, great." He goes, "You know, business is war." And I just looked at him and the other guy goes, "Yep, I hope you're ready to go to war, Sarah." And I went back that night and sat on the floor of my apartment, and I think I was in Hello Kitty pajama bottoms. And I just was staring at the floor and I thought, "I don't want to go to war."
13:26 Speaker 01 Like, there has to be a better way, there has to be a different way. I have no interest in going to war. And I made a decision that night that I was going to go about this business in a very different way and use very different principles of, other than going to war. And I just want to say, I'm very happy that I believe there's a real shift happening now where the conversations around using kindness and vulnerability and empathy and intuition is finding its home inside of business, because I truly think it's about the balance.
13:55 Guy Raz? You know, Sarah, I think a lot of people are surprised when they hear stories of founders who are not naturally charismatic. I can think of like Yvon Chouinard, or Eileen Fisher, Tony Hsieh, they're more introverted. They have, there's an inner charisma they have, but they're more introverted and quiet. And you come across as very charismatic. First of all, is that something that you just are, or is it something you learned how to be as you grew into your, into your role?
14:24 Speaker 01 I feel like this is who I am. So I feel like I've been this way since I was a little girl.
14:32 Guy Raz? Do you think it's an important quality to have as a founder?
14:35 Speaker 01 I mean, clearly not, because there's so many founders that aren't more extroverted. I think it's really fundamentally comes down to the belief in yourself and the profile of the person. Listen, you've got to hire your weaknesses as soon as you can afford to. I know what my weaknesses are, and if you're the kind of founder that sales and being out front in front of people and cold calling and doing all of that isn't your thing, then that's a great place for you to invest your money early on as soon as you can afford to. I needed to invest in an operator, very clearly. I was not good at that, I did not enjoy that. The day-to-day management of the company, the inventory, the logistics, I mean, literally... I remember when I first started and I had to be every department.
15:20 Speaker 01 I was the head of sales, the head marketer, the head packer and shipper. I was the before and after butt model. I was literally every department, okay? And one time, I don't know that I've ever told this story. One time in the beginning, when it was all happening, I was having to ship Neiman Marcus orders. I got my big break and the buyer said I'll put him at seven stores. And so I was in the aisle of Office Depot looking for a bill of lading and a manifest, okay? And all of a sudden, I sat on the floor of the aisle and started sobbing. I just started crying. And this man was looking for like, I don't know, envelopes. He's like, "Are you okay, honey?" I'm like, "What? A bill of lading? I don't even know what I'm doing."
16:05 Speaker 01 And it was highly overwhelming to me, that side of the business.
16:09 Guy Raz? How did you? How did you deal with?
16:11 Speaker 01 I still don't really know what a bill of lading is.
16:13 Guy Raz? Yeah, right. How did you manage your own personal anxiety in those early days and even as you began to grow?
16:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, I definitely have a lot of negative self-talk. It's a part of my life. I think it's a part of everybody's life. I will doubt myself often, I still do. And I've also trained myself to identify when it's happening. Because sometimes, we don't even know we're saying the stuff we're saying to ourself. And so the identification and the awareness is a big part of it. And then I will reframe it. I will just stop it. And I have certain things that I'll say to the voice when it starts happening, and I'll redirect it.
16:53 Guy Raz? I mean, it's remarkable, because I think a lot of people in this audience and beyond who know you would think of you as this, you know, a superhero, right? Like, that you would never have self-doubt or anxiety. But I think it's important to hear that, because a lot of the founders on our show have talked about that. Have talked about things like imposter syndrome, or about experiencing bouts of self-doubt, even now, even after they've been wildly successful.
17:22 Speaker 01 I think that's a big part of success. I think it's the people who can manage their own negative self-talk and their own self-doubt that really is a huge component to success. I mean, there's a quote that says, "Self-doubt will kill more successes than failures ever will." So I just happened to be lucky. I was going through a really hard time in my life at the age of 16. I watched my friend run over by a car and killed. And then my dad left home. My parents got separated. And when my dad moved out, he handed me these cassette tape from Wayne Dyer and said, "Sweetie, I wish I was your age when I listened to this instead of the age of 40." And then he left. And so I started
18:05 Speaker 01 listening to these and it talked about not caring what other people think about you, not fearing failure. And I started to cry in my bedroom. And I just remember thinking, "I have just spent 16 years in school being taught what to think, but nobody has ever taught me how to think." And it was like, it was like the lights went off and I went, "Oh, wait, I can control how I think." And then I became a student outside of school of that. Anything I could get my hands on of how can I train my thinking to process things in a way that propels me forward rather than holds me back. And I gotta say, in high school, nobody wanted to be stuck in my car. After a party, they're like, "Don't
18:50 Speaker 01 go in her car. She's gonna make you listen to that motivational stuff." I had it on at all times, literally. And then, and then I ended up on the cover of Forbes like 10 or 15 years later. And all my friends from Clearwater High texted me and they were like, "Damn, should have listened to that [bleep]."
19:11 Guy Raz? That's Sarah Blakely, founder of Spanx. Sarah joined me live onstage at the 2019 How I Built This Summit, which happened in October at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts in San Francisco. We're gonna be running more conversations from the summit every Thursday through the new year. So keep checking for updates. Next week, we've got Troy Carter, an investor and the former manager behind Lady Gaga. Thanks to J.C. Howard, who produced this episode, and Ramtin Arablouei, who composed the music. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
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