Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz How I Built Resilience: Live with Cathy Hughes About this episode Cathy Hughes is the founder of Urban One, the largest African American-owned broadcast network with 54 radio stations around the United States. Cathy spoke with Guy about the impact of the Black Lives Matter movement and how Black entrepreneurs can meet the challenges of the COVID-19 crisis. These conversations are excerpts from our How I Built Resilience series, where Guy talks online with founders and entrepreneurs about how they're navigating turbulent times. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Guy Raz? We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.
0:45 Guy Raz? But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned. Money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes
1:30 Guy Raz? based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?
2:14 Guy Raz? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea. What separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt.
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4:21 Guy Raz? NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.
5:06 Guy Raz? If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built. Hey, everyone, and welcome to How I Built This: Resilience Edition. This is the place we've been talking with entrepreneurs about how to think creatively during this really disruptive moment. Now, back in 2016, pretty soon after we launched How I Built This, we featured the story of Cathy Hughes. And if you haven't heard it, it's well worth going back to listen to. Cathy built the largest African-American broadcast network in the United States,
5:50 Guy Raz? starting with one small radio station in Washington DC in 1981. Her company, Urban One, has expanded to include a cable network, digital brands, and 54 radio stations. A few days ago, I called up Cathy to find out how she's doing, what's going on with the business, and her thoughts on the mass demonstrations against racial injustice happening across America and around the world. First of all, Cathy, how are you doing? I mean, where do we begin? Pandemic, economic meltdown, mass demonstrations about racial injustice. I mean, what a time, what a moment in our history.
6:31 Speaker 01 One of the things, it's given me regular, consistent, daily time to meditate and pray and really concentrate on what it's going to take for us to pull ourselves out of this. Because the frightening thing is that everyone globally, this isn't just an American problem or a black community problem, this is a global problem. And it really doesn't make much sense to solve a problem if there's no one here to participate in the benefit of the solution to the problem. Then at the same time, I'm so encouraged by the demonstrations and the number of young
7:14 Speaker 01 people that I see that aren't going to accept things being the status quo any longer. We're doing a tribute to the mayor of the District of Columbia because, as you know, she painted 16th Street, which leads directly into the front door of the White House, Black Lives Matter, and changed the name to the Black Lives Matter Avenue. But the issue is, particularly when we're talking about business, there is never again going to be a normal. Entrepreneurs in general are in incredibly bad shape. I'm encouraged by the demonstration, but I'm also frightened by the reality, the economic
7:55 Speaker 01 reality of how do you effectuate change when the people you're effectuating for are sick and dying and lacking the funds to implement the changes. The impact on America, I don't think the media, the White House, I don't think anyone's being totally true with us, giving us the truth in terms of how this is going to devastate. The majority of employment in the United States of America is based on small businesses, small entrepreneurs. They are being wiped out. They are being totally eliminated. They were already under fire, trying to compete. What happens when we don't have these independent entrepreneurial ventures to provide services,
8:39 Speaker 01 number one, and also to provide employment? So while I'm encouraged, I'm also frightened.
8:46 Guy Raz? You know, Kathy, it's really sobering to hear you talk about that because you're probably one of the most optimistic people I've ever met in my life. I remember when you were on the show, I kept asking you about, you know, all of the struggles that you went through, and I want to talk about some of them. Being bankrupt for years, having creditors break down your neck and still being positive, knowing that you were going to succeed. I remember you saying, "I knew. I had no doubt. I was worried, but I was never worried that I wouldn't make it." And that was like, it was such a charge, you know, when you said that in the show, because, I mean, you really struggled for so many years to build this now an empire.
9:22 Speaker 01 To have it shut down, to have me to have to furlough 382 broadcasters about six weeks ago. When I look back at the challenges that I had, the struggles that I went through to build this company, they were almost like a picnic compared to what we're going through now. I worry. So far, all of our charitable ventures have been in terms of feeding the elderly and the children, so many of whom depended on their schools to provide them with nourishment. And when you are facing starvation on the behalf of the masses, when you are faced with some people now not wanting to go back to work because they make more
10:07 Speaker 01 on unemployment than they do being gainfully employed. So my struggles were like good days compared to what I think we're getting ready to go through in this country.
10:18 Guy Raz? Yeah. I mean, you mentioned urban ones had furloughs, media organizations are, you know, in crisis.
10:25 Speaker 01 Salary cuts. My salary was cut by 30%. My CEO salary, all of my personalities, everyone took a 20% pay cut and so that we didn't have to have additional layoffs. But how do you keep up with your cost of living, your normal everyday functions? Certainly, no one thinks that in their fourth quarter, they're going to be faced with an economic crisis because you prepare if you're smart. And particularly entrepreneurs, they see being able to provide opportunity and stability and a future for the people who work for
11:08 Speaker 01 them. All of that is now gone.
11:12 Guy Raz? Kathy, I know that Urban One convened a town hall recently called, I think it was called We Are One, and just kind of shifting gears for a sec, I mean, we're in this incredible moment with mass demonstrations happening all over the United States, all over the world, and I'm sure you've seen polls that have shown significant majorities of the American public now agree with the notion that racial injustice is a serious issue. It seems to be different this time. These demonstrations seem to be different, seem to be really creating a much more profound national discussion about racial justice, about historical memory.
11:48 Speaker 01 Oh, yes, no, it's totally different. It's so interesting. My most recent favorite protest sign said, "All of the president's friends are not racist, but those who are not did not think the racism would be a deal breaker." What's happening with these protests, these young people, people around the world, people of all ethnicities, you know, all demographics, they're saying it is a deal breaker. The reality is that history has to be sick and tired of repeating itself, because these are the same issues that sparked the riots
12:28 Speaker 01 of the 60s. Kent State, Kent State, when those kids were gunned down at that university, it was a wake-up call. For almost nine minutes, all of the world could see a person murdered. The trauma on our young people, our children, because all of the networks, Facebook, everybody just keeps playing it over and over and over and over and over again. I don't think that a five, an eight, a 10-year-old, I don't want, at my age, to see somebody murdered at the hands of another human being. And then to have it, it's so long, it's so drawn out, almost nine minutes.
13:14 Speaker 01 So you almost had to be in a coma. If you had any level, like I said, you may not have been a racist. But the issue of racism was not a deal breaker for you. It wasn't a deal breaker with the company that you worked for or owned. It wasn't a deal breaker for you in terms of the neighborhood or education. Now it is, and this murder is what triggered it. The question is, where is the strategy? Who's going to be responsible for figuring out? How do you fix it? The other thing that that really gives me optimism, though, is the fact that we are really sticking together better than I've ever seen.
13:56 Speaker 01 Always, there's some disagreeable element in any type of movement or change. That's just human nature. But I'm seeing people being more supportive of each other across all types of lines, as I said, demographics, ethnicity, name something. They're coming together. Oh, young LGBT. People are kind of shying away from being judgmental. They're being a lot more appreciative of human nature. And I think that started with COVID-19. COVID-19 was an equal opportunity killer. Does not care about anything other than taking you out of this life. And when you're faced with this whole issue of death,
14:41 Speaker 01 you start becoming sensitized, I think. And then with the protests behind it, we were already raw. We were already nervous and concerned about what was happening. We couldn't leave our homes. Still, a lot of the wiser ones still are not leaving their homes yet, waiting to see if these protests are going to spike the infection rate. And so it is entirely different guy. And while I'm concerned about the economics of it, and that worries me, at the same time, I'm optimistic and happy that it's bringing us together. America is populated by the most brilliant minds on the planet. And so many of those most brilliant minds are people of color.
15:25 Speaker 01 As always, we will rise to the occasion. We will do what is necessary, not just to save our own selves, but to save and preserve the country that we love and live in.
15:37 Guy Raz? When we come back in just a moment, we'll hear more from Cathy about how Black businesses have been affected by COVID-19 and what young entrepreneurs can take from this moment. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This, Resilience Edition from NPR.
15:57 Guy Raz? Hey, welcome back to How I Built This, Resilience Edition. Cathy Hughes founded Radio One by purchasing a Washington DC radio station and then expanding her media empire all across the United States. DC was the city where Cathy started her incredible career, and she's especially proud of what the city's doing right now. Yeah, I remember when you told the story about your life. You grew up in Omaha, Nebraska, one of the few African-American families in Omaha at the time. And you arrived to DC, and I remember you describing it as this just magical experience for you because it was a Black city.
16:33 Speaker 01 Excuse me, still is. What Mayor Muriel Bowser just did, stuff happens in Washington DC that shakes the entire world. You like to always, you know, America likes to claim that that's the White House and that's the government. No, that's the people. What she did, she painted that street herself. She was out there with that paint crew. Okay, I mean, wow. So I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it still happens to me in Washington. I couldn't have experienced that in Omaha, Nebraska. You couldn't have experienced that in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago. That's DC strong. I love it.
17:10 Guy Raz? Yeah.
17:11 Speaker 01 I'm sorry, I get excited when I think about it. That's my enthusiasm returning. Thank you. So go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm still fascinated.
17:20 Guy Raz? Well, and during the 70s and during the 80s, you really convened a lot of conversations through your stations in DC. You've got, I think, Urban One's got five or six stations in DC alone in the DC area. You've seen and experienced a lot of businesses like sort of pay lip service to diversity and inclusion. But I wonder whether, I mean, whether now there's this notion that silence is taking a position, that you can't be silent. We're seeing corporations. I mean, I went on Amazon today and Amazon's got a statement about racial injustice and it's all over the place. And I wonder, I mean, do you worry that it's just, once again, kind of corporations paying lip service?
17:59 Speaker 01 Absolutely, absolutely. How dare the NFL commissioner talk about how they support diversity and they literally blackballed Colin Kaepernick. All right, until he gets a job, their apology is not legitimate in a lot of black folks' minds, including mine. Professional football is black talent. All right, no question about that. And they were going to call them SOBs, said fire them. Blackballed Colin Kaepernick and now they're holier than thou. Oh, we are so sorry. We were so wrong. That's not what should have been coming out of his freaking mouth. What he should have been saying was, I've got 10 teams all vying
18:42 Speaker 01 to offer Colin Kaepernick a contract. That's what's different, Guy, when you ask what's different. See, before, we would have been, oh, well, you know, they gave Jay-Z a contract to do the entertainment, which Jay-Z should not have taken, which is not going to be a popular opinion. Okay, but we should have stood strong behind Colin Kaepernick. And he's one of the greatest quarterbacks alive today, still. Okay?
19:06 Guy Raz? Right.
19:06 Speaker 01 No question about that. And he's still sitting on the sideline and you're going to act like you're so concerned. Plus, $250 million spent over a 10-year period is equivalent to the celebrations that they finance when they win the Super Bowl. That's no money for the NFL. Okay, again, you've got to really follow the dollar. It's almost as if those who do the worst in terms of diversity and opportunities of power within their corporation for people of color are the ones with the most sincere apologies. Young people don't want to hear it and a whole bunch of us older folks don't either.
19:44 Guy Raz? Which is why it's important to talk about it.
19:46 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely, absolutely. The dialogue. I was so proud of the other night. Jane Fonda in her eighties called out white America. Okay, now she certainly does not have the relationship with white America that she once had when she was their number one box office attraction. But still, she has a lot of power, a lot of influence. I was so happy to hear her just hit it square on. So many are, but when these corporations are all, every corporation in America. We start getting emails and communications from our staff saying, are you all going to issue a statement? Which my management team went ahead and did because we are a publicly held corporation. The reality is I live my statement every day.
20:29 Speaker 01 I don't need to apologize for anything. No, I didn't please everyone and I couldn't help everyone, but I live it. I don't talk the talk. I try to walk the walk and I require that of my company. So I'm a little suspect with all these major corporations and you know, you look at their boards. How many black members do they have on their boards? How many people of color, black and brown are in decision making? Positions within those corporations now are saying, oh, racism is so bad. Cool. Let's get past the apology stage. Let's send me some strategy. This is what I'm going to do. And like I said, two hundred and fifty million dollars spread over ten years is the cost of the Super Bowl party if they win.
21:14 Guy Raz? Right. So, I mean, I mean, the arguments we're hearing is like, actions speak louder than words, right? It's, it's, take action. You know, something you mentioned earlier in a conversation about entrepreneurship and this is the thing, like How I Built This is about a celebration of entrepreneurship. But as you know, Kathy, entrepreneurship in the United States has actually been declining over the last thirty years and it's been.
21:38 Speaker 01 Because of consolidation, because of the big boxes, because of these major corporations buying out everybody and putting them all under one umbrella. It has been an incredible decline, but you know that we've lost almost a half a million black businesses between February and April. It's like four hundred and eighty thousand black businesses have closed forever. Ninety days we're talking about, that's again, when you go back to, when we go back to your earlier question, that's why I'm afraid.
22:09 Guy Raz? I wonder, I mean, it's, it's sort of a weird question to ask, but I wonder whether, you know, kind of going back to this idea of being at the, at the sort of the low point in our economy. And when you sort of, given the conversations that, that we're having and the demonstrations that we're seeing around the country, I mean, do you, do you think in some ways that there, that this could also be a moment for young black entrepreneurs or, or first time black entrepreneurs to really break through? Like if you were the Cathy Hughes of 1981, 1980.
22:42 Speaker 01 Anytime there's a crisis, there are opportunities because people become more creative, they become more ingenious. Necessity is the mother of invention, is an old, old saying. The reality is, a lot of people are going to suffer during the next few years, I think, not just months, but a lot of people are going to have opportunities that would not have been available, who are going to come up with very creative, ingenious ideas and business ventures that are going to make a difference. I'm excited for them. And so many of them are fearless because when you're young and you realize that you
23:27 Speaker 01 have an opportunity to do something that you only thought before was a vision or a dream, but circumstances, the situation allowed you the opportunity to do that, the excitement, oh my goodness, is almost unheralded ever before. The opportunities that are going to come out of this in the medical field, in so many different fields, in technology. One of the problems, I think, with, you know, a significant decrease in black businesses is so many of us are in businesses that are classified as non-essential. And I think that some of those new businesses of the future are going to be ultra-essential.
24:09 Guy Raz? Yeah. You were on the show almost four years ago and your company is as influential as ever in terms of its cultural impact and importance. If you think about five years from now, you think about Urban One, you think about your influence, you think about the conversations you're convening, what is it that you want to take away from this time and really kind of apply to everything that you do?
24:35 Speaker 01 Well, number one, I think that all of us are going to come out with different business models. I think that the whole issue of expansive, expensive office space is going to be an issue. It took us a minute to get our rhythm going. It took us a minute to really understand how do you supervise everyone in their homes while they're busy trying to help their child homeschool and make certain that they live up to the responsibility of that paycheck they're getting. But we are learning. I would hope, my dream, my commitment would be that my company would be in a position
25:16 Speaker 01 to take that which we do now and multiply it a million times over to help that many more people. I've always felt that my company's mission had to be, to be of service to my community. Being the first African-American woman of a publicly traded corporation, I know that my fiduciary responsibility is to say that the number one priority is supposed to be to enhance shareholder value. Again, what we're going through now, I don't have to say that today. I said it almost in memory of when I used to have to say that. And I don't feel guilty about admitting that my whole purpose for being in business was
26:01 Speaker 01 to be a voice and an assistant to my community. I wanted to provide assistance to the people who listen to me or who now watch me on one of our two cable channels or interact or are a user on our internet companies. We've touched on a weekly basis, 92% of all of Black America interacts with one branch of my company in one form or fashion. I want that to just continue to grow and multiply. And I want to, once again, use those resources to build my community.
26:37 Speaker 01 I think still, and I have had this opinion since a very, very young age, that it is my responsibility to cure the ills, to help figure out and strategize the path to liberation and freedom for my people. It is my responsibility as a black entrepreneur to use my resources to help finance the correction of the ills that we have been plagued with. I cannot do that unless the system is willing to literally take its knee off my neck. Again, for people of color, watching, witnessing that murder,
27:17 Speaker 01 it was like boing, it was like slap, it was a light bulb going off. We realized that we have to look out for ourselves, but we cannot do that when there are institutions whose prime purpose in being in life, the only reason the police department exists, was those were the bounty hunters, those were the vigilantes during the days of slavery who went and got the slaves. Those were the overseers. They evolved into police departments, but that's where they started. They started patrolling and correcting the actions of blacks
27:58 Speaker 01 that they did not feel was consistent with the best interests of white people. And those institutions still have that number one goal. And so that's not a problem. Only white people can solve the problem of institutional racism. The problem I can solve is providing for my people, providing an education, a skill to help them achieve their full potential, financing the things that they need and want and are desirous of, and not having to depend on anyone, including the federal government, to provide that for us. That's a black responsibility to the black community.
28:37 Guy Raz? Cathy Hughes, just incredible. It's so great to see you. Thank you for coming back. Do you promise when we have the How I Built This summit, we can reconvene it when it's safe?
28:48 Speaker 01 I told you I'm gonna get there a week early. I'm gonna be there waiting on you all. I'm so sorry that I missed it. But also, Guy, thank you so much for the incredible work you and NPR do, sharing easily digestible and palatable information about it's not that complicated the way you present businesses to the general public. So often, you go and see or hear a speech or watch someone and you leave there thinking, wow, I really don't understand what they said. Guy, you and your team have an incredible talent for taking very complicated issues and simplifying them so that it's put in a layman's language and everyone can understand.
29:33 Speaker 01 And I thank you and salute you for that.
29:35 Guy Raz? Well, we're very fortunate to have guests like you who come on the show. So, thank you, Cathy, and see you soon.
29:42 Speaker 01 Thank you. God bless.
29:43 Guy Raz? That's an excerpt from my conversation with Cathy Hughes, the founder of Urban One. To see our full interview, you can go to facebook.com/HowIBuiltThis. Just search for videos. And if you want to see all of our past live interviews, you can find them there or at youtube.com/NPR. If you want to find out more about the How I Built This Resilience Series or other virtual NPR events, you can go to nprpresents.org. This episode was produced by Candace Lim with help from John Isabella, Julia Carney, Gianna Capadona, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Thanks for listening. Stay safe, and I'll see you in a few days. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This from NPR.
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