FIGS: Trina Spear and Heather Hasson. The $2.5 Billion Scrubs Brand That Investors Said Would Never Work

Heather Hasson and Trina Spear saw an opportunity nobody else seemed to notice: millions of healthcare workers were spending long days in uncomfortable, ill-fitting scrubs. So they set out to reinvent them. Heather was a designer with almost no money. To join her, Trina left a prestigious job at Blackstone and cashed out her retirement. They sold scrubs out of a car, got rejected by hundreds of investors, and eventually built FIGS into a multibillion-dollar public company. Along the way, they paid $40 million to fight a lawsuit, navigated a pandemic, and watched their company’s valuation swing by billions. This week, Heather and Trina share how they built the “Lululemon of Scrubs”—and why your net worth is not the same thing as self worth. What you’ll learn How a trip to Kenya changed Heather’s view of uniforms–and led her to start her own scarf and tie business How Heather spotted an opportunity in a stale category: healthcare workers want comfortable clothes, too How free coffee became a tool for customer growth How the founders endured hundreds of investor rejections and learned to pursue a quick no How FIGS built a community that is “diehard obsessed” with their products How it pays–and what it costs– to defend your company against competitor lawsuits Why net worth shouldn’t determine self-worth How Heather and Trina think about resilience, luck, and building a company that lasts Timestamps: 07:05 - Heather’s dreams to become a surgeon and launch a handbag business fall through, so she takes a life-changing trip to Kenya 13:53 - Heather meets a healthcare friend for coffee: “What are you wearing?... This is garbage.” 20:46 - Trina beats Heather in a tennis match, and the two become business partners 29:38 - Trina walks away from Blackstone to join Heather, and everyone asks, “What are you doing?” 35:05 - FIGS launches: Healthcare workers get it, but investors don’t 47:56 - A big-time investor comes on board—from the movie business 52:17 - A competitor sues for $800 million, and Heather and Trina use anger to their advantage 59:46 - COVID hits… and a year later, FIGS goes public 1:08:22 - No major plans to diversify: FIGS is all-in on scrubs for now This episode was researched and produced by Katherine Sypher with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Follow How I Built This: Instagram → @howibuiltthis X → @HowIBuiltThis Facebook → How I Built This Follow Guy Raz: Instagram → @guy.raz Youtube → guy_raz X → @guyraz Substack → guyraz.substack.com Website → guyraz.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:08Guy Raz?

  The value of what you have, the shares you have, are worth a lot of money.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we made the Forbes wealthiest women alive or whatever list. And then the following year, after the stock went from like $50 to $5, we were the two women who fell off. Meet the two women who are now not on the list. We're an $8 billion company. Now we're a $400 million company, $600 million company. Now we're $2 billion. Like, none of it, it's so transient, and you can't get really tied emotionally to any of it.

• 0:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  In terms of your self-worth, let alone your net worth.

• 0:56Guy Raz?

  Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how two founders with barely any background in healthcare built FIGS, what some people call the Lululemon of scrubs.

• 1:23Guy Raz?

  If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer. For the first time ever, new Delta SkyMiles Reserve American Express card members can earn two Delta Comfort round-trip flights for travel within the 48 contiguous US states, Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands. Plus, you can earn 50,000 bonus miles towards your next getaway. And who doesn't appreciate an elevated airport experience? Delta SkyMiles Reserve card members get access to the Delta Sky Club, your pre-flight oasis to recharge, with 15 visits and four one-time guest passes each medallion year when flying Delta together. That's up to

• 2:06Guy Raz?

  $950 in annual value. Value estimate based on $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. Make every trip feel more rewarding with the card that upgrades your travel. Apply today at delta.com/cardsocial. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Flights are fulfilled as flight certificates valid for Delta Comfort or Delta Main to select domestic destinations. Book 21-plus days in advance. Up to $80 per person, and taxes and fees apply. Other restrictions apply.

• 2:46Guy Raz?

  All right, so I'm going to give you a really good idea, an idea for a business that, if executed correctly, could make you a lot of cash. Here it is. Here it is. Ready? Adult incontinence. Okay, maybe not what you thought I'd say, but hear me out. There are 26 million adults in America who experience some form of leakage, which is a little over 7% of the US population. Now, if you could come up with cool products or a better experience to help them feel less embarrassed or awkward, I would argue this could be huge. But most

• 3:27Guy Raz?

  of us wouldn't even look at a category like this, because, well, it only reaches a fraction of the total population. But that fraction of people, they can be massively important consumers. This was the brilliant insight that today's guests had around a different product: hospital scrubs. There are 24 million healthcare workers in the US, again, around 7% of the US population. And many, if not most of them, wear scrubs. And for a very long time, scrubs were things you bought at a medical supply store. They were boring and baggy, and almost no one looked good in them. But Heather Hasson and Trina Spear

• 4:07Guy Raz?

  saw an opportunity to reimagine scrubs and to build a brand around them. In 2013, they formally launched FIGS. And initially, they faced a lot of skepticism, from friends and especially from investors. But what they proved was that there was a demand for a better-fitting, better-looking hospital scrub. Today, FIGS is a publicly traded company with a market cap of over $2.5 billion. And Heather and Trina are still very much running the business. In many ways, the two are total opposites. Trina grew up in Miami and followed a traditional business path. She went to Harvard Business School and worked in finance

• 4:49Guy Raz?

  for a few years afterwards. Heather, on the other hand, grew up in Los Angeles and attended the University of Wisconsin-Madison. And though she was always creative, what she really wanted to be was a doctor.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yes, I always wanted to be a surgeon, actually specifically a reconstructive surgeon, so I could combine the two skill sets, which is art and science, into one. And, you know, I tried really, really, really hard in school, and I just, I didn't cut it. I didn't do well, and so. But I tried so hard. Organic chemistry is impossible, whoever, you know, possible.

• 5:27Guy Raz?

  That's where people, like, that's where it ends for a lot of people, organic chemistry, right? It's just so hard.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  It's really hard. I think, I mean, anatomy is really hard. Everything's really hard. So I didn't, I didn't become a doctor.

• 5:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  But I really, I was into fashion. I love fashion. And I got out of school and, you know, got a job and...

• 5:52Guy Raz?

  Where did you get a job?

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I got a job at, a few jobs.

• 5:55Guy Raz?

  In Madison or in LA or where?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, in New York, too. So in New York. So I got a job at Levi's.

• 6:01Guy Raz?

  Oh, you moved to New York after you graduated?

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Very, very briefly.

• 6:05Guy Raz?

  And worked for Levi's in New York?

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Correct, yes.

• 6:09Guy Raz?

  Okay, so you're in New York, and I guess at some point, you started a business, a handbag business. Tell me about, I guess this is around, like, 2005, maybe?

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:20Guy Raz?

  2006. Tell me, tell me what this is. Tell me the story.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  So I started, you know, I love design, so I started making handbags and...

• 6:28Guy Raz?

  How?

• 6:29Speaker 02

  I had some connections in Italy. So in college, right, I went to Italy for about a year and a half. And I was actually making coats and selling coats to Americans. And that's, I think, my first foray into actual, like, designing with my hands, not just drawing, but, you know, cutting patterns and things like that.

• 6:50Guy Raz?

  Okay, amazing.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  And then, you know, fast forward, now I'm in New York in 2005, starting this handbag company. And I had, you know, connections in Italy, because I was there doing that for about a year. And then I meet Steven, who was my business partner.

• 7:08Guy Raz?

  Who was Steven? Just some guy in New York? Or was he Italian?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Some guy in New York. He was actually Italian, too. He was actually Italian, from Italy, yeah. Really great guy. He started a bunch of different companies, you know, tech companies, cafes. He just did different things, really interesting human.

• 7:23Guy Raz?

  So he was your partner to start a handbag business. Did it ever, did it ever go anywhere? I mean, did you, did you make handbags?

• 7:32Speaker 02

  I did. Yeah, we did. We made beautiful handbags, beautiful...

• 7:35Guy Raz?

  Out of leather or what?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, yes. I'm a vegetarian now.

• 7:41Guy Raz?

  And where were you selling them?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  I didn't even get that far.

• 7:44Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  I didn't get that far. We just made a bunch of bags. We're about to go and, going to get like a, you know, a sales team and do the whole thing, but he passed away. He had lung cancer and he passed away. And it was very unfortunate. He died at a very young age, and it just...

• 8:01Guy Raz?

  How old was he?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  He was, I want to say, 36.

• 8:05Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was really young. But I was very fortunate. I mean, he, you know, he funded my business, and he really believed in me. And, you know, the whole thing just came shuttering down, crashed down, because, you know, passed away, and that was that.

• 8:22Guy Raz?

  So what did you, what did you do at that point? I mean, you've got a bunch of handbags, and you're so young, and this is kind of sputtering out.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  I honestly, I was so heartbroken for, you know, a number of things, that I decided to go to northern Kenya. I went there just to clear my head. I didn't go for any actual purpose, or I had nothing. I had no money. I had no plans. My business partner died from lung cancer. I had zero going for me. So I'm like, let me see what's going on in Kenya. But I think...

• 9:05Speaker 02

  I think my parents are probably like, what is she doing?

• 9:09Guy Raz?

  And what did that, I mean, did that lead to anything? Or was it just an awesome experience and kind of cleared your head as you had hoped?

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it led to actually a few things. So I was traveling around. It's really inexpensive in Kenya and you can travel for, you know, just a little bit of money. And I went to a lot of different schools and I was looking at these kids and I said, oh, my God, how come these kids aren't wearing uniforms? Or why aren't they going to school? And then, you know, a lot of the teachers were saying, well, they don't go to school because they don't have uniforms. And I said, that's ridiculous. And I thought, well, how much is it to make a uniform? Just like helping some, you know, kids out so they can go to school. And I think that this was my real foray into uniforms and the meaning of what a uniform really does. When you do see a child go to school, you know, they're put in a nice uniform and they go and they crush it.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  It's a different mentality and it's amazing if you can make even a difference in that respect. I just, it really stuck with me.

• 10:09Guy Raz?

  And so that experience, I guess, what like inspired you to figure out a way to get, to get school uniforms to those kids? And it's not entirely clear to me whether or how it's connected, but, but I guess while you're figuring this out, right? How to make these uniforms? You go back to LA

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:28Guy Raz?

  And started a business, not, but not bags this time, but I guess like scarves and ties and things like that?

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I wasn't actually intending it to be a business. It was really to help children, but I didn't have any money. So I had to sell ties so I could put these kids in school. So it wasn't, I wasn't doing it as like, oh, let me do a business. I was doing it so I can just help some people while I clear my head.

• 10:53Guy Raz?

  And the ties were bow ties and neckties and scarves? And they were like silk and wool and?

• 10:59Speaker 02

  The whole nine.

• 11:00Guy Raz?

  Tell me about that. How did you do that? I mean, again, you were young and clearly, you know, very resourceful, but like, how did you get it going? How did you get the money to buy the material and to then make this stuff? And, and that, because you were, you know, you were broke, basically.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, no, I had nothing. I really had a few thousand dollars in my pocket. But also the material for ties, it's very small compared to, you know, three yards for, you know, a pair of pants. I was working in retail stores in LA. I don't even know if it's around today, but it's called Theodore in Malibu. I was making nine dollars an hour and that my nine dollars an hour was actually paying for whatever I could afford for the ties.

• 11:45Guy Raz?

  So what do you, you want to help kids in Kenya? Where, how do you want to sell the ties? What's the game plan?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Literally like a door to door type of situation, a combination of, you know, website, trunk shows, word of mouth.

• 11:58Guy Raz?

  And did you call it figs at that point? I've seen

• 12:02Speaker 02

  I did.

• 12:02Guy Raz?

  References to fashion inspired global sophistication. That's what it stood for at the time. Is that right?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Well, I just put that, but I didn't, it didn't really. The, the real meaning behind it was I'm almost like a fruitarian. So I love figs. I love the fruit. So that's why.

• 12:22Guy Raz?

  So you're doing this, but it's not, this is not a huge business, of course. This is a small

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Tiny.

• 12:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Tiny. I wouldn't even call it a business. I would say this is like a little hobby. I'm just trying to, you know, get my ducks in a row and I wanted to design and I thought it was fun and I can put some kids in school and that, that was

• 12:42Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  And I put about 10,000 kids in school. So I, people bought a lot of ties from me.

• 12:48Guy Raz?

  And just, just rewinding for a sec to your time in Kenya. Another thing I think that you noticed while you were there was that medical workers didn't have proper uniforms as well, right? Like they didn't have scrubs. And I guess you want to do something about that, too?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah. I was in one clinic and they were, they let me in the OR, the operating theater, and they were operating on this little boy and they didn't have scrubs. And these nurses have been nurses for 25 years and these doctors, same thing. And I thought, let me just send them some scrubs, help them out.

• 13:25Guy Raz?

  And, and so when you came back to Los Angeles and you kind of implemented this as part of what you were already doing for kids and uniforms, how did you, you knew how to design clothing. Where did you get the scrubs made? Did you just like find a place in China? And, because this is, like today, you could just go to Alibaba or whatever and just like, I want a thousand scrubs and you get them next week, right? This is a little bit harder in 2010, 2011 to do.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  So in 2010, here in LA, you know, there's fabric stores and there's sewers and I bought fabric off the shelf.

• 13:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Made the pattern, hired a sewer, sewed up a few, I don't know, maybe 30, and then sent them out to a couple of clinics.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  I remember they were forest green and then I put the label in bright yellow, figs on them, and then I sent them out. And I didn't really think of anything of it. I was just trying to help people because it feels good to like look good. But then it triggered to me, I was, started to walk into certain hospitals and just sit there.

• 14:30Guy Raz?

  Did you have friends who worked as nurses or as

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:33Guy Raz?

  Medical workers?

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I definitely did. But yeah, it really, it really kind of struck when I started sitting in hospitals and I had coffee with a friend of mine who was a nurse practitioner. And she, when I met her for coffee, I was like, what are you wearing? You're a nurse practitioner. This is garbage.

• 14:54Guy Raz?

  But scrubs aren't supposed to look good. They're supposed to look like, right? It's like

• 14:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 14:58Guy Raz?

  But you, you sort of noticed this. You were like, you don't look good in those scrubs. I mean, who looks good in scrubs in 2010?

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Well, and when I was in college, right? You have to wear scrubs. And when you're in an ad, you have to wear scrubs.

• 15:09Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  And they do a one size fits all. So I had the extra large giant scrubs, right? And I didn't think of it then, but you have to roll your scrubs up, you're wearing it and it's like your sleeve is kind of getting in the way. And then, you know, meeting this woman for coffee and thinking, how has this not evolved since I was in school? How is this even possible? And that's when it really, it bothered me.

• 15:34Guy Raz?

  Okay, so the gear, I can see the gears in your head start turning, but I don't think you're quite there yet, thinking, oh, this is a business. You're just thinking, huh, maybe this is interesting.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Well, I did think there were, had to be something out there. So I said, let me go shopping for you first. Let me just go shopping. I'm going to go to these, where do you find a scrub store? And then I was driving so many miles away to go to these like strip malls and the scrubs were obviously the same as what she was wearing. And I was like, okay, there's nothing here. I'm going to tailor your scrubs. So that's what I did. And, and she called me, she was at Cedars and she called me, she goes, hey, can you tailor me another pair? And then one of her friends, she asked, said, Heather, can you tailor, you know, one of mine? I said, this is weird. And then that's when it shifted in my head. This is what I want to do. This is awesome.

• 16:26Guy Raz?

  Okay, at the time, I would just assume there's like a scrubs room at a hospital. You go there and there's like, okay, what do you need? And you just pull the scrubs out and you put them on and you go to work. That's not how it works?

• 16:39Speaker 02

  There was at the time, that's how it works, but not 100% of the industry. So a very small percent, the hospital did provide, right, in vending machines, scrubs, right, for their employees, for the HCPs.

• 16:50Guy Raz?

  But you got to, most people have to buy their own scrubs.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  That's correct. But if you were to go into a quote unquote scrub store, oh, my God. The retail experience, there are cardboard boxes, bedpans, crutches, everything in the store where it's like, why are you, why is a healthcare professional, right? Why is a surgeon, why is a dentist, why are they coming into this type of retail experience? I just thought it was like absurd and inappropriate.

• 17:24Guy Raz?

  I mean, it's interesting because just, just before I bring Trina in, did you get that reaction from people that you talked to? Were they like, I'm so angry that scrubs suck? Like, I wouldn't even know that people would think that. I would just think, oh, whatever, just like

• 17:39Speaker 02

  No, the reaction was, well, this is what we wear, Heather.

• 17:41Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  I was like, why? Just stop it. We're going to stop this. We're absolutely going to stop it.

• 17:46Guy Raz?

  That's why your, your reaction is so interesting. It's very unusual. I mean, you were literally angry about something that the people you were talking to didn't seem that angry about.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  They didn't seem angry. It's because they didn't know that there was something better.

• 18:00Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  I was very upset. It came from a place of being so upset that the people who are saving lives, the people who are pulling, you know, all nighters are subjected to wearing these boxy, ill-fitting, scratchy clothing every day. And after doing my research and like going to these scrub stores and getting calls from, you know, friends saying, hey, can you tailor my scrubs? I said, I'm going to make the best damn scrubs out there.

• 18:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  But of course I didn't have any money. So how was I going to do that? Right? How was I going to do that? But then I found a manufacturer who was really cool and believed in, in my vision and helped support the first production run of my designs. It was this very small production run. I think it was like 15,000 at the time. I got people off Craigslist to do a photo shoot, got it on the website and then started selling out of my car in emergency rooms.

• 19:02Guy Raz?

  Wow, okay. Trina, I want to bring, bring you into the story now because Heather was kind of taking this kind of windy path to get to figs. And at the same time, you were on a, I would say like a more traditional track. You, you had an MBA from Harvard and

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:20Guy Raz?

  When the two of you met, you were actually working in finance at Blackstone in New York.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:26Guy Raz?

  Heather is a random person in Southern California.

• 19:32Guy Raz?

  Doing something a little quirky. How did you even come across your radar?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  So we had a mutual friend. She worked at a private equity firm across the street from Blackstone. And we would go every day at 3:00 PM to get a coffee. You know, we would talk about random things. And she was like, my friend is working on this idea for scrubs. And I was like, that's really interesting. Could you connect us? And so she did.

• 19:58Guy Raz?

  Why did you think that was even interesting?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  You know, I think I wanted to do something more entrepreneurial. I, Blackstone, I realized there were a lot of people, a lot smarter than me, and a lot more passionate about the work that we were doing there. And I was like, even if I could, you know, get there in terms of all the things I would need to learn, which I think I could, it was that passion, I think, that separates, you know, the good from the great. And they were much more passionate about those jobs than I was.

• 20:29Guy Raz?

  Okay, so you contact Heather and you're like, hey, tell me about what you're doing.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And at the time, I was actually headed to LA to visit one of my friends from business school. And so I said, you know, would love to meet you. And she said, oh, I see that you play tennis. So why don't we hit some balls?

• 20:52Speaker 02

  I got smoked. I got smoked, smoked.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  So we met up, we played tennis. You know, I was in LA for, I think it was July 4th weekend. This was 2012. And we were talking about what she was doing and her idea and her vision. And, you know, what really stuck with me was this concept of, you know, there's so many companies that are building amazing product, amazing gear for athletes. And at the time, I mean, still to this day, you have Nike and Lululemon and Under Armour that are creating the most technical gear for people to score more goals and run faster and swim across all the lanes. But what about the people saving lives?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Who's building for them? Who's creating for them?

• 21:44Guy Raz?

  So here's my question for you, Trina, because I think you are, I mean, you're a business school grad and you're in finance and you're working with like data and you had done diligence as an analyst. So like, I'm thinking, I'm just going to take a leap here and think that you would want to know if there's actually a there there. Like, at the time, what, did you try to look into this and validate whether there was a real opportunity there?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and I didn't leave my job for about six months after I met Heather.

• 22:19Guy Raz?

  What did you start to like, look into to see if there was? What did you discover?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Well, I remember Heather said, well, before we start working together, can you help me with this financial model? And even before we would start working together, as a friend or as somebody I just met, can you help me with this? And so, and I think Heather, if you remember, you had somebody build something for you and you sent it to me. And I was like, this is crap. We got to redo this.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  And so I, you know, used all my financial modeling skills from banking and private equity. And to your point, Guy was, you know, started looking into the industry. How big is the market? Who are the players? How does it work? And it was such an attractive industry, right? Healthcare uniforms, healthcare apparel is mandated. You have to wear them to go to work every day. But the hospitals weren't paying for them. And the healthcare professionals were on their own to go buy them. The industry is replenishment driven. You have to order your uniform over and over and over again. It's a non-seasonal business. Most apparel companies are waiting for that holiday order, right? In order to, and that's where they make all their revenue for the year.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  It's a non-cyclical business. Healthcare is recession resistant and healthcare jobs are recession resistant. And so there's all these attractive dynamics, but the industry was fundamentally broken in that all the players were going about it wrong. They didn't sell to healthcare professionals, even though 85% of healthcare professionals buy their own uniforms. They sold through distributors. And that's where the problem was.

• 23:57Guy Raz?

  So this is amazing. I mean, 85% of medical workers had to buy their own scrubs. So that, right then and there, that's huge. Did you find out what the total addressable market was?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the total addressable market, so there's 24 million healthcare professionals in the US. There's 140 million healthcare professionals around the world. The industry in the United States at the time, I think, was about 10 billion. That's, it's a lot bigger today. It's over.

• 24:26Guy Raz?

  That's insane.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's over 12 billion now. It's $80 billion industry around the world. And so massive industry, yeah.

• 24:34Guy Raz?

  It's incredible. All right. So Trina, you meet Heather. And from what I understand, you started to come out to LA every couple of weekends to do informal work together, but you were not yet formally working together. Is that right?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  That's right. So, and, you know, in finance, you get a bonus at the end of the year. So at this point, I'd already put in about half the year. So you might as well wait for the other half. And I still had a lot of debt coming out of business school, right? I had only been at Blackstone for about a year when I met Heather. And Heather was, already had the collection and we were selling. And she was, I think Heather, you said to me, hey, Harvard girl, if you want to work with me, you got to sell some scrubs out of my car. And I was down. So we would go at 7:00 AM and 7:00 PM when all the doctors and nurses were changing shifts and we would sell scrubs on the sidewalk outside of emergency rooms.

• 25:35Guy Raz?

  And these were tops and bottoms?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Tops and bottoms, yeah. Tops and pants.

• 25:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  I always had the North Star of something in my head called a technical comfort. And so we wanted to come out with a product that had stretch and that was super soft and really worked for the HCP.

• 25:54Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  But also I thought, why don't we give healthcare professionals colors that I believe they should have? So for example, a graphite. So if you see, you know, business folks and they were slacks and they're wearing a Heather gray slacks, why shouldn't healthcare professionals wear that same type of Heather gray?

• 26:14Guy Raz?

  Okay. So you guys are selling scrubs out of trunks. And Trina, what did you see? I mean, were you, I mean, it sounds like clearly, like more and more, this was being validated in your mind. You were like, yeah, wow, people are just, were they flocking to the sidewalks? Was it like, I need a large, I need extra large, I need a small? Like, what was the scene like?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think there was some of that, but it was also, for me, it was a lot, it was a big learning experience of what do you, what do you love about your scrubs? What do you, what do you not like? And where do you hold your, you know, your tools? And what types of pockets are needed? But yes, we also sold a lot of scrubs on sidewalks. And we would go in the morning, we would go get a big thing of coffee from Starbucks, a big thing of hot cocoa. And we were just giving people free coffee and hot cocoa, coming off a night shift and, you know, learning more about them.

• 27:07Guy Raz?

  That's smart.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really great.

• 27:08Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Trina, you are still at Blackstone. I mean, I know that, that basically in January 2013, you decide to leave and go full time on Figs. But Heather, when Trina was like, hey, I think, I think I want to do that, I want to do this, what was your, how did you feel about that?

• 27:29Speaker 02

  In the beginning, I was like, absolutely not. Like, what?

• 27:33Guy Raz?

  Why? Yeah, why?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Because, you know, my, in terms of funding, right? My manufacturers were funding, myself and I had an intern, they were funding the production, which was, it's very hard to convince your manufacturer, hey, believe in my vision. I know it's going to sell. You got to, you know, front the production run.

• 27:53Guy Raz?

  So you had, you had this funded. So you're thinking, I don't need anybody.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Right. And then Trina and I, we got to know each other and I was like, we are magic. We are so different, but at the same time, we come from the same cloth, essentially, in terms of that we are both very competitive by nature. And I really appreciated her so much. I was like, I think we can do something awesome together. You're going to do everything I don't want to do. And she goes, great, I like to do that. I want to do those things. And I said, amazing.

• 28:32Guy Raz?

  Okay. And Trina, you had some savings, right? Your 401K through your work. And I'm assuming you still had some debt. But I have to imagine that to do this, you had to make, put in some cash to make a financial commitment.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and I think that was my commitment to Heather as well. Like, she had, you know, done a lot before I got involved. And so, you know, I did liquidate my 401K, which is a horrible tax decision for those listening.

• 29:05Guy Raz?

  It was 50% of everything.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, horrible. And I did have business school debt as well, still, that I was paying off.

• 29:13Guy Raz?

  So you put some money in. And do you mind telling us how much you were able to put in?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  $70,000.

• 29:19Guy Raz?

  Okay, so that was everything you had?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think it was, the 401K was $140,000.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Divide by two. Yeah.

• 29:28Guy Raz?

  And this is tricky. We always, there's a tricky conversation. Okay, we're going to be partners. How does this work? You know? Heather, you've been running this now, and you had it up and running. And now you've got a partner, springing in $70,000. You guys have to figure out how this business is going to be structured.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think we came up with an equity split that we both felt good about. And so, you know, Heather is a creative genius, and her equity was greater than mine. But I think that was in line with what was fair and what was right and what had been built. I think a lot of people really get caught up on, what am I getting? And what is, what are they getting? And we just have never had that relationship. Because at the end of the day, if it fails, we both lose. And if it's great and it's successful, we both win. But a part of me thought, like, even if this didn't work out, and I think Heather and I both have this belief in ourselves, like, I can only fall so far. Right? I did work, I did go to Harvard Business School. I did work at Blackstone. Like, if I wasn't going to do it in my late 20s, like, I was never going to do it. I didn't have a mortgage.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  I don't have a family. I don't have kids. Like, you know, if I wasn't, if I wasn't going to do it then, like, when would I do this?

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yes. And I think anytime you, you know, get into any type of partnership, especially business, it's a massive risk. But I think there was more, there was a larger risk, us not partnering up. Like, life is a risk. Just also have fun. Right? And so I thought Trina was also like, a lot of fun. And I want to have fun in life. And we only live once.

• 31:03Guy Raz?

  Did anybody say, Trina, you're going to leave Blackstone? Are you to sell scrubs? Like, really? Is that a good idea?

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Everybody said that. Everybody said that. They said, you know, what are you doing? And what's a scrub? Both questions.

• 31:23Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, Trina and Heather get turned away by hundreds of investors and learn the art of the quick no. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

• 31:44Guy Raz?

  The most successful business owners don't do it all themselves. They delegate. Upwork lets you build a team of highly skilled specialists for every function your business needs, so you can focus on what you do best and let experts handle the rest. Upwork gives your business fast access to highly skilled specialists with deep expertise, so you can fill critical skill gaps, launch projects faster, and scale support up or down without committing to full-time headcount. With Business Plus, you can access the top 1% of talent on Upwork. AI-powered shortlisting delivers a curated shortlist of top freelancers matched to your goals.

• 32:28Guy Raz?

  In under six hours, no endless searching required. Thousands of growing businesses already trust Upwork to hire highly skilled freelance professionals for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support. With over 170,000 freelancers holding five-star ratings, you can hire with the confidence that comes from hiring someone with a verified track record. It's free to sign up, and posting a job is easy. Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Upwork.com.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  Hi, it's Phoebe Judge, host of Criminal. I'm going on tour. If you like hearing me tell stories about people, well, I've decided to tell stories about my life and the people I love.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  A letter was left carelessly around. So I sort of got red-handed.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  It's a show about secrets and forgiveness. I hope you'll come see it. Find all our tour dates and get tickets at thisiscriminal.com/live.

• 33:48Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's early 2013, and Trina leaves her job at Blackstone and moves to LA so she can work with Heather full-time on figs. The two of them are sharing an apartment, and they start to use Shopify to fulfill orders.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  So we had a two-bedroom apartment, and the living room was cleared to have our stacks of figs. And they were in these light plastic poly bags at the time, which would slide, and Trina would always, you know, pile up the right colors and the right sizes. We would ship out of our, quote-unquote, warehouse.

• 34:25Guy Raz?

  And the initial, like, units, let's say, were made where? I mean, I'm assuming they're made overseas. They're made in Asia. Even though, I know there's still quite a bit of manufacturing that happens in LA. Clothing is made there. It's just, it's very expensive to make it there.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  We tried that too, though. I mean, we tried in the beginning. It was, you know, production in Los Angeles, production in China, production in Vietnam. And then I was in Vietnam for quite some time.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  And we did have a production issue early on. And so, in order to, like, really get the quality and the fit right, we ended up, to Heather's point, coming back to LA to perfect it, to then go back overseas. And so that's kind of how that worked.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I would spend a lot of time in Vietnam, commercializing our product, right? I spent a lot-

• 35:13Guy Raz?

  Working at the factories?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, dye houses, factories, yarn mills, everything. So I'm very particular about our fabric, very particular about our yarn, very particular, and it takes a lot of time and energy. And especially when you're creating your own fabric and you're not just buying something off the shelf. And I think when I was doing that and dealing with the commercialization of the product and perfecting the product, Trina was out running our operations and then raising capital.

• 35:42Guy Raz?

  So from what I gather, you were able to, you guys were able to bring in $2 million from friends, like, a friends and family round? And do you remember how many people it took? Because 2 million, I mean, it's not that easy to raise $2 million. Like, how many people were in on that? Do you remember?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  I think it was about 40 to 50 people. $5,000 checks, $10,000 checks. People that believed in me, believed in Heather. You know, we actually didn't really take money from family at all along the way.

• 36:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Were you nervous about doing that? Like, because that, if you lost it all, like, they'd lose money. I don't know.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  I think it was they wouldn't give us the money.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't give us the money.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  More than-

• 36:27Speaker 01

  And, yeah. And, yeah, I think I didn't want that to be an additional pressure. It was, it was enough pressure, given what, you know, we set out to do.

• 36:37Guy Raz?

  All right, let's talk about, Trina, you arrive in 2013, and you guys are living in a two-bedroom apartment. And you've got a website on Shopify. And I'm just going to throw out a number there. I'm thinking you're doing, I don't know, no, you can't be doing more than $20,000, $30,000 a month, right? At that point?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Less than that.

• 36:57Guy Raz?

  Less than that, okay. So, small, okay. So, and again, at the time, it was, you know, in 2013, it was, it was a unisex clothing? Or was it specifically for, cut for?

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. No, it was specifically cut for male and female. And we really tailored the product. And I was really focused on-

• 37:21Speaker 01

  The glutes area. The glutes area was a big deal, right?

• 37:26Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You know, it's interesting you say that because, I mean, this is, this was the secret success of Lululemon. Everybody who bought them said, "They make my butt look better." Right? And that, and that, and that was a key kind of innovation that they, that they, they had. And so it makes sense that that would be an area you would think about.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we still think about it today. And I think also bringing fashion to healthcare professionals, to the design, was very, very, very important. So, back in 2013, we had, I think, very original, not just fabrication, right? But also the style, the silhouettes. And we had our first, like, for example, a slim pant. We had a slim pant and everybody was like, "What is this? This is horrible." This is, and I was like, "No, we need a slim pant." And that was actually one of our, our top sellers.

• 38:16Guy Raz?

  Instead of just baggy, like, scrubs?

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And so we came out with something called a Rafaela top, right? Which is a top with no sleeves, essentially. And everybody's like, "This is crazy. What are you doing?"

• 38:29Guy Raz?

  Like a muscle shirt.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Like a muscle shirt. Exactly. Like a muscle shirt. And so, you know, everybody's like, "What is this? This is not going to sell. This is terrible." I was like, "No, it's forgiving, it's flowy, it's feminine. You could wear underscrubs. What's an underscrub?" Right? We invented the underscrub, the layering pieces. And that was our number one selling top.

• 38:51Guy Raz?

  Huh. Now, let's talk about, even before you raised the, the first real seed round, which I think happened in 2014, what was the, sort of, the thinking about how you were going to sell these products? Because you need to bring in cash. And one of the things that I would have thought of, that everybody thought of, I'm sure, was like, "Hey, you're going to make money by just selling these in B2B. Like, go to hospitals, go to medical centers, go to private clinics, and just have them buy tons of this stuff." Did you get any traction with that approach?

• 39:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:28Guy Raz?

  None?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:30Guy Raz?

  They weren't, they weren't interested?

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, they weren't interested, they didn't get it, they aren't the end, they're not our customer, right? For the most part, the administration of hospitals and clinics are not our, they're not healthcare professionals that are, you know, helping patients and doing that work. It was super frustrating and upsetting, but at the same time, that was the blessing. Is that, like, none of the, the routes that we were going, that most companies go, they go for, "I'm going to sign up a celebrity, I'm going to get a lot of press, and I'm going to go get some big institution to say we're great." All of those things didn't work for us. Every aspect of getting a gatekeeper to say, "Oh, FIGS will do great," none of that worked. And the only thing that ended up truly working was going direct to this community and building

• 40:15Speaker 01

  a relationship with them, one-to-one at scale.

• 40:18Guy Raz?

  Yeah. It, it's interesting because, like, a nurse, for example, right? It's a, it's a very good job. I saw the median salary for a nurse in the United States is close to $100,000 a year. Now, we're talking about 2014, so it was different, but still, it's a, it's a very, it's an in-demand job, it's a hard job, but it's a, it's a very good job. And so, I'm assuming that, that the scrubs that they were buying, that were available to them, might have been a little bit cheaper than what you guys were selling, but a lot of these people had the incomes to pay a little bit more for something a little nicer. Is that, is that right?

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think that the, we think a lot about, like, the price-to-value ratio. So, because these companies that were making scrubs sold through distributors and paid licensing fees, the cost of their product was really low. Because in their margin structure, they were giving 60% of the total price to the retailer, and they were giving 8% to 12% of the retail price to the license holder. So that let, left very little to innovate or create a great product. We were selling direct. And so when you think about our business model, our cost is about double, but we only had to charge about 15% to 20% more.

• 41:38Guy Raz?

  Because you didn't have all of the middlemen.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Because we didn't have all the middlemen.

• 41:41Guy Raz?

  Makes total sense, right? And direct-to-consumer, certainly in 2014, like, that was the way to go, but you still had to acquire customers, and that would require cash, which meant that you still had to raise money. I mean, apparel is cash-intensive business. We know that from, you know, dozens of episodes of this show and just, you know, knowing more about the industry. So, so going to really start to raise money, I think in 2014, this is when you, I think, started to go to more institutional investors or professional investors.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:17Guy Raz?

  But the process of raising that money, I think, I have to think you do get no's.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Oh, we got, I mean, we probably got 300 to 400 no's.

• 42:26Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  And then...

• 42:28Guy Raz?

  300 to 400?

• 42:29Speaker 01

  300 to 400 no's. Easy.

• 42:31Guy Raz?

  How are you pitching 300 to 400 people?

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Easily. Oh, I'm, we're a machine. We don't stop. I mean, and it was, it was, it was life or death, right? It was, we, we were very focused on getting fast no's. Fast no's. So, you know, when people were not sure, or were not getting back to us, okay, that's a no.

• 42:52Guy Raz?

  Why would people say no? Because you would show them the data and say, "Here's the opportunity." What were, what were the reasons?

• 42:59Speaker 01

  No, nobody cares. No one cares. As a healthcare professional, you don't care how you look. You're getting blood and you're getting liquids on you, nobody cares. Well, actually, you know, and we can talk about all the reasons people do care, but... And also, one thing from an investor's standpoint, they were like, "The TAM's not big enough. It's not big enough. It's not big enough."

• 43:18Guy Raz?

  But you were saying there's 20 million people.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  It's not big enough, it's not big enough, right? And our point was, maybe it's not, but that's not the right business to invest in. You need to create the TAM. If you create TAM, that's a whole nother ballgame. That's something you would want to invest in.

• 43:38Guy Raz?

  Wow. So you, you couldn't convince investors, every investor?

• 43:42Speaker 01

  That's right. And it took a, a number of contrarian thinkers who believed in us and believed in, in what we could do, that, that did it best.

• 43:54Guy Raz?

  Okay. You raised the money, 3 million.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Well, it was 2 million was the seed. We raised a million-dollar bridge round, and then we raised another two, and then we raised five, to get us to a total 10 million.

• 44:05Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:07Guy Raz?

  I want to talk about this time. This was kind of a golden moment, 2014 to, really, 2018, 2019, even into 2020, for direct, reaching consumers directly through, particularly, Facebook. Right? Like, and, and some people have said it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Like, you could really, the customer acquisition costs were, we know, were much lower. You were going to be a direct-to-consumer brand. So, I have to assume that some of that was going to go to really try and target health workers who are on Facebook.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Digital marketing was definitely part of our marketing strategy, and, you know, I think our, the unique benefit that we had was that the other players weren't really doing digital marketing, like, at all, right? And then over time, because we, because healthcare professionals are in very densely populated institutions, word of mouth very quickly became our largest customer acquisition driver. And so, you know, healthcare professionals are walking billboards, wearing FIGS.

• 45:19Guy Raz?

  Yes, it's a tribe.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:21Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, this is, it's, it's interesting, right? Because it is, because it's a unique product, and it is, even though millions of people are buying this, you don't, most of us don't see it, unless, you do see people wearing scrubs if you live near a hospital, right? But for the most part, most people who don't work in the healthcare industry don't see scrubs all day.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think the thing that is truly unique about FIGS is how we've built a community around a profession. And that community is diehard, obsessed with FIGS, and we are obsessed with them. And that's the thing you can't replicate, that's the thing you can't copy. This is a very tightly knit community that we penetrated very early on and became like a part of their life in a way that was inextricable.

• 46:14Guy Raz?

  Okay. So either around this time or within this period of time, you guys were co-CEOs, I should mention.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  At that time, Heather was CEO. I think I was COO at that time. And then we became co-CEO, I believe in 2017.

• 46:32Guy Raz?

  Okay. And there was an investor who you guys met or caught. He kind of, I mean, he found out about you, a guy named Thomas Toll, who would become significant, a significant investor, the significant investor. Tell me about him. He was already a very wealthy guy. He'd owned some innovation labs. Tell me about how he, who he was, how he came across the business.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So in 2014, 2015, one of our investors said, you know, you got to meet Thomas Toll. He runs a movie studio called Legendary Entertainment. And we got to get Fig Scrubs into the movies. And we were trying everything at this time. And so we meet with Thomas. And, you know, I think Heather, both Heather and I were like, that's not going to be the thing. But at the time, we just said, okay, let's meet with Thomas and see what we can do here. The conversation was super interesting. We ended up, he ended up investing in our seed round and our Series A. And he really got it.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  And he was focused on these outdated industries, right? That were, in his words, run by the mafia. And not to say that the medical apparel industry was that. But if you look at what like Uber did with the cab industry or what, you know, like that type of phenomenon that, you know, these garmentos were just running these industries and not building, really bringing technology in the best minds to build something truly innovative. That was the thesis. And he said, you're doing that in the medical apparel industry. And so he invested in us. And then in 2017, you know, he bought out all of our other investors for a great return.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  And then that took time and it was a process. But we ended up getting that done.

• 48:31Guy Raz?

  And he, he would end up, as you say, not only putting in more money, but then basically buying out the cap table, like clearing the cap table in 2017.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:40Guy Raz?

  So I think, I think this would be a turning point, right? Because you are, you would have now some really significant cash behind the business to, to scale it further. Because I think by the end of 2015, I think you'd done about a million, you'd broken, cracked a million in sales.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 48:57Guy Raz?

  Roughly, okay. And do you remember 2016 roughly?

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Four million.

• 49:01Guy Raz?

  Four million, okay, great. So you're now, in 2017, Thomas Toll buys out, or he basically clears cap table, puts, I think about $65 million into the company, becomes the majority owner of Fig's. Now, on the one hand, this is great because you don't have a bunch of investors and a bunch of calls. But on the other hand, it could be tricky because now you've got one investor. And so there, there're different, there's different views on whether this is an advantage or not. I think in the end, it worked out for everybody. But was there ever a part of you, or did anybody say or give you advice like, hey, you want to be careful having just one investor behind you because that's your boss?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  I mean, we structured it, I think, really well, where Heather and I had two out of the three seats on the board. So we've never lost control of this company to this day. We have, we control the vote. So we have, as a public company. And so I think that was something that we were really focused on. In 2015, we had raised money from a group called Campfire Capital.

• 50:11Guy Raz?

  Out of Vancouver, right?

• 50:12Speaker 01

  And, you know, one of the reasons Thomas ended up buying them out in addition to all the other investors is that they tried to kick us out.

• 50:19Guy Raz?

  They tried to kick you guys out as the operators?

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 50:21Guy Raz?

  Uh huh.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Thomas was, he was an entrepreneur. He was an operator. And so he wasn't about kicking out the founders. He was about ensuring that we had all the support and resources we needed to go and crush it. And it worked out great.

• 50:35Guy Raz?

  And it meant that you didn't have to fundraise.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Well, and at that point, though, by 2017, we, we were making money. So really, 2018, we did 55 million in sales. 2019 was 110 million, 263 in 2020. And then the rest is history.

• 50:52Guy Raz?

  Okay. Basically, as you start to get more and more successful, I imagine you start to attract attention. Because even at this point, I don't think that any big sort of well-known brands were making scrubs. Now, Fabletics does it and other, their other competitors have gotten into this space because they see there's money to be made. But you guys got sued by this company called Strategic Partners. And they have a lot of different brands that they own that do scrubs, like Dickies. And I think Dickies is one of them.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Cherokee, Dickies and Cherokee, mainly.

• 51:24Guy Raz?

  They sued you guys for, I don't know, a bunch of different things, that you made false claims about your products and that maybe that you stole trade secrets from them. And this went on for like, a long time. Like it was like a four-year legal battle that you decided, you guys decided to fight this.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I mean, this was a company that was basically suing us for, they were basically saying everything that we had ever done was a lie.

• 51:51Guy Raz?

  They were, obviously, your business was, as it was growing, it started to threaten, potentially threaten their business.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we had, you know, the legal battle started in 2019, early 2019. And so that's when I think they woke up and realized like, you know, we were doing something unique and different. And, and healthcare professionals love Fig's. And they needed to, and their whole strategy is litigation, not innovation. So, so that was their whole playbook with suing companies and taking them out of business. And we thought, we're not going to, we're not going to take this line down. We got to go fight this.

• 52:29Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, we'll find out how the jury ruled in the case and who wound up benefiting the most. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This.

• 53:00Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's early 2022. And after a three-year legal battle, the lawsuit against Fig's has finally come to a close. The jury winds up ruling in favor of Heather and Trina. But the founders pay a big price.

• 53:20Guy Raz?

  How much did this cost you guys to fight?

• 53:22Speaker 01

  $40 million.

• 53:23Guy Raz?

  $40 million to fight this?

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:28Guy Raz?

  It's so crazy to me. The only winners are the lawyers.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  That's right. But that's, I mean, that's America, right? The most litigious country on the planet.

• 53:37Guy Raz?

  It's so crazy.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  But I would say like, it's also the best thing that ever happened to us. Like, I mean, I don't know if Heather would agree, but.

• 53:43Guy Raz?

  $40 million? It's a lot.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  No, not that part. But like, this really showed the world, like, not to, you can't mess with us. We're not going to settle. We're, we're going to fight you because we know who we are and that we didn't do anything wrong.

• 53:56Guy Raz?

  They wanted you guys to settle, presumably.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and lawyers, at times, we're like, let's, let's just settle this. And I have to give credit to our board. Our board at the time, because we were already public. So we had, you know, amazing people that said, no, we're not going to take this line down. We're going to, we're going to fight. We're going to go to trial.

• 54:13Guy Raz?

  What if you could have settled for $2 million and, you know, and not admitting anything?

• 54:19Speaker 01

  I mean, we probably would have done that, but that wasn't the case.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  I think you have to think about the cost of doing business. So we were being sued for, I believe it was $800 million, right? So if we're going to spend 40 or 60, that's absolutely worth it because we knew we were going to win. Because we just did. We knew we were going to win because what, what they were suing us for was just ridiculous. And they lost because we were innovative. That's really how we won. Because we're an innovative company and we put great product out there. We have a great business. And that is why we won the lawsuit. But 40 or 50 million dollars, we spent way more than that because of our time, right? So my time and Trina's time and the company's time and the board's time, it's.

• 55:01Guy Raz?

  Discovery and depositions.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  That's right. You know, and if you can compartmentalize and block that and keep going and doing your day, awesome. It's, it is hard to do, but you got to train yourself to be able to do that. So you, you keep going forward and, you know, building a great company, even though you're being sued here for $800 million in the background.

• 55:19Guy Raz?

  How did you compartmentalize? How did you just do your job and also, oh, God, I got to do deposition today?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  I mean, it was really hard.

• 55:28Guy Raz?

  And, and you're going to have lawyers, their lawyers are going to be aggressive. They're going to ask you all kinds of aggressive questions. They're going to try and make you mad. They're going to try, they, they want you to get mad. They want you to get testy. They want you to lose your cool.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Well, not to speak for Heather, but I think one of the things that helped us win was how angry she was at the trial. And the jury saw how angry we were, that this has taken so much of our time and it is so ridiculous. And, you know, and I think that, I mean, I didn't do a great job of compartmentalizing over that time, especially not at trial. I mean, it was all day long. We were living in a hotel in Santa Ana. Like, it was, I don't know how people do it if you don't have money. I don't know how you do it. It's awful. And so, you know, I do think the anger, I think, at many times, our lawyers were like, don't be angry. You have to be this, you have to be that. And in the end, we were just authentic and honest because we didn't know how to be anything else.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  And, you know, I would say the best moment of that whole thing was after we won, we met the jury. We had a jury and we met them. And they were crying and just saying how sorry they were that we went through this. I mean, it was just, I mean, it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable.

• 56:42Guy Raz?

  It's been, yeah, it's part of, I guess, part of business in, in America. Okay. So I wanted, because this trial would take so long, but I want to wind back for a sec, which is COVID. And wow, I mean, it this turned into, for obvious reasons, an insane moment for you because all of a sudden, there is a massive need for, obviously, you know, clothing, but PPE, protective gear, and which was not your business. This is not what you were doing. But you very quickly got into that business, making masks and gown, certain gowns, isolation hazmat suits. Like, tell me about just, how did you get that done so quickly?

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I would say, just to be clear, on the hazmat suits, isolation gowns, and other PPE, we didn't sell that. So that was all donation during that time. But, you know, we did shift our supply chain. We did, you know, find suppliers to help us make PPE. We were making masks that, you know, were actually maybe two, we had N95s, and then we also had our figs masks that we, you know, were selling. And I think-

• 57:56Guy Raz?

  The cloth ones, right?

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so I think it was, it was just like, we felt this deep responsibility that we needed to show up and support, given who we are and what we do and the business that we're in, to ensure that our community was safe and taken care of.

• 58:12Guy Raz?

  How are you dealing with supply chain challenges? I mean, there were, all of a sudden, like, a shipping container went from, you know, 35 bucks to like, $2,000, for example. And, and they were, there was a backlog. I mean, how were you, how were you guys keeping up with demand during that time?

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it was hard. And we were, we weren't necessarily keeping up with demand. I mean, if-

• 58:37Guy Raz?

  Were there shortages in the website? Like, sold out, sold out?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. All across the board. But I think we had incredible manufacturing relationships, right? Our partners, we had worked with for, at that point, eight years, you know, seven, eight years, right? So they were in it with us.

• 58:54Guy Raz?

  During this time, because 2021 was still COVID. You, you guys go public. You do an IPO, and you go public in 2021, May 2021. And I have to, I mean, this is an amazing opportunity and moment, because you had done, had such an incredible year in 2020. Was that sort of the idea, like, wow, we have an opportunity, we better seize it at this point, because we are really, we're doing great?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  I don't think we thought about that like that. It wasn't about the capitalizing on the opportunity. I think it was, the company should be a public company. You know, we had built a real business with the scale and with a disciplined approach around revenue and profitability. We did have one investor that at some point would need liquidity. And then the IPO was really about celebrating our community. We brought 150 healthcare professionals to the New York Stock Exchange. We had the best party ever. They rang the bell with us, not our, you know, our management team. It was a moment to celebrate them, and it was a moment to celebrate all that we had done to get to this point.

• 1:00:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Guy Raz?

  When you go public, literally, I mean, at this point, you knew, you had a sense it was going to happen, but now it becomes real. On paper, the both of you become very wealthy multimillionaires, like, worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And it might make you feel uncomfortable, and maybe not. I think it's an amazing achievement. But it's, it's true, right? Like, your shares are worth so much. And instantly, the both of you, who did not have, did not go into this business wealthy, did not come into the, you know, into this thing flush with cash, the value of what you have, the shares you have, are worth a lot of money. It's valued, you know, it's a multi-billion dollar brand at this point.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, to your point, it was on paper. And, you know, we made the Forbes, like, wealthiest women alive, or whatever, list. And then the following year, after the stock went from like, $50 to $5, we were the two women who fell off. Meet the two women who are now not on the list, right? So I think it was a point in time, right? It was a point in time. And not to say that we haven't done well, and we haven't, you know, taken money off the table, to your point, we have. And, and it's amazing, right? We're able to support our families, we're able to support people we love. And that's what being financially secure enables you to do. But that's not what drives us every day. And I think for me, it's like, having gone through that, right? That rollercoaster

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  of having nothing, being worth X, and then being worth nothing. Like, this, you know, we're an $8 billion company. Now we're a $400 million company, $600 million company. Now we're a $2 billion. Like, it, none of it, it's so transient. And you can't get real, really tied emotionally to any of it, in terms of your self-worth, let alone your net worth.

• 1:02:00Guy Raz?

  Well, it's interesting, because I think now, I think the market cap of the, of the brand is 2.4 billion, but you're more profitable than you've ever been. So it's, I think that's right. I mean, I've looked at the financials, and you're actually, your customer acquisition costs are lower. And so it's interesting, right, how that works?

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Right. And the public markets, you know, are at times rational, at times irrational, you know, over, you know, the standard quote, like, over time, it's a weighing machine. In the short term, it's a voting machine. But like, we went from, like, when we went public, like, the stock went up to $50 in the first month. And, you know, people are inviting Heather and I to their castles in Italy, right? And then, a year later, the stock's at $5, and it's like, we murdered their firstborn, right?

• 1:02:46Guy Raz?

  Oh, you're not invited to the castles in Italy anymore?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  No, it's like, we literally murdered their children. So, you know, I do think, like, having gone through that, you kind of realize it's all a little bit fake. And the amount of entrepreneurs that I'm sure you've probably interviewed, that sell their company for billions of dollars, and then go into deep depression, right?

• 1:03:05Guy Raz?

  Happens a lot. Not a lot, but it does happen. Yep. You lose sense of purpose.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  They don't have that purpose. Like, we're operating this company with the same amount of passion that we had in day one. But we just started a foundation. Like, it's so awesome. We built a hospital in Kenya. We have an advocacy platform where we're fighting for our community in DC, meeting with Bernie Sanders, meeting with Republicans, we're meeting with people across the aisle. And having, and I always say this, like, you have to do well. Like, you can't give back and do the things that we're doing without having a real business that makes money. And so, the business makes money, and that's super important, to being able to then do all of these other things that we're passionate about. But those things have to be tied together.

• 1:03:49Guy Raz?

  Do, Heather, I know you, you stepped down as co-CEO in 2022. You're the, I think, the executive chairman, Chair of the Board. And so, obviously, still involved in the company. And Trina, you are the CEO today, the sole CEO.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Guy Raz?

  And, I mean, it's, again, it's, I'm just curious, like, we've talked about your, sort of, your business life, right? Your public life. And did either of you have time for a personal life at all? And, I mean, was there any time to, you know, to, to focus on, on, on yourself and your own, you know, I don't know, the things that were not about the business?

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  I think for me, I'm just starting to figure that out, even in the past number of months. I think, you know, I do think we've sacrificed a lot to, and you have to, right? Like, they always say, you know, you want to be great, what are you willing to give up, right? What are you willing to sacrifice? And I think we've sacrificed a lot. And I'll just speak for myself, like, you know, I just started, you know, playing more tennis. I've just started dating and getting out there, right? And I think that's, I started seeing a therapist, which makes me, like, very LA. And so, I do think, like, when you're so maniacally focused on building a business and getting it to this scale, you, you do

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  give up aspects of yourself and of your personal life. And, and I feel like now, I'm trying to figure that out.

• 1:05:29Guy Raz?

  Okay. I think that, you know, again, the business is based on the public documents. I mean, you know, almost 19% margins, and EBITDA has hit 36.6 million in the last quarter, last reported quarter. There are, it's a different business now than it was in 2013, just from a business perspective for a moment.

• 1:05:51Guy Raz?

  Do you, you know, as a CEO, right? Do you see FIGS, as long as you are running it, focused entirely on this category on healthcare workers? Or do you imagine getting into like athleisure wear? Or like, whenever I travel, I always wear, you know, I'm not wearing jeans when I travel. I wear very comfortable, soft hoodies and joggers and stuff. Like, is, is there a world where you also are targeting that kind of consumer?

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Trina's gonna take this, but Guy, if we tell you all the things, we're gonna have to kill you, man.

• 1:06:27Guy Raz?

  That's true. That's true.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  No, I think the, I think there, we have 3 million active customers. There's 140 million healthcare professionals around the world. We have barely scratched the surface on getting into, you know, really, first off, having more healthcare professionals, no FIGS exists. There are just so many things. Like, if you look at the original vision board that Heather, like, put on the wall when we first met, like, we're like on number, like, 2 or 3, you know? And so I think there's always possibility in the future of things outside of healthcare. But, you know, the next decade, I would say, the runway is just so long and so big on what this company will be, that, you know, there's no reason.

• 1:07:11Guy Raz?

  When you think about, Heather, what happened, right? And how this unfolded and where you got to. And you became wealthy, and rightfully so. I mean, you deserved to be wealthy. And you became, your life unfolded in ways that maybe not everyone who knew you would have predicted. How much of, of this do you attribute, the success that you got? Do you attribute to the work and the hard grind and the every, the sweat? And how much do you think had to do with, with luck? Just being at the right business at the right time and the right momentum?

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  I think it's gotta be a combination of both. I think you need to have luck on your side. I think you need to hit that wave at the right time. And Trina and I, we are just even like brute force. We kind of wield it. Definitely, you know, I feel very lucky. I do.

• 1:08:06Guy Raz?

  Trina?

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, when luck showed up, we were ready for it. I think the luckiest thing is the people we've brought on, who helped us build this company. We have the best team. And when the luck disappeared, we had to be really smart and really resilient and do all these things that sucked and were super painful, so that we can get lucky again.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  Also, I feel lucky to, to feel so positive. Like, I wake up every day, like, really happy and positive. And I feel lucky that I feel that way.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  You know that the copy team, Heather, was talking about this the other day? They said even during COVID, like, they would write, like, this, like, you know, semi-dark copy. And they said that you kept being like, guys, it's too negative. Make it more positive. Like, they know what they're dealing with. They already know what they're dealing with. Like, we're the light. Like, we need to bring the positivity. Like, they literally said this the other day. And I was like, that's right. You've always pushed that, not just like for yourself, but for the brand, of bringing that light and positivity to like every aspect of how we show up. And it's so cool.

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks, Trina.

• 1:09:16Guy Raz?

  That's Heather Hasson and Trina Spear, co-founders of FIGS.

• 1:09:22Guy Raz?

  By the way, the brand had its red carpet debut last year at the Emmy Awards. Noah Wiley, the star of The Pit, wore a custom FIGS tuxedo in midnight blue. Wiley said he actually asked FIGS to make him a tux that was as comfortable as the scrubs he wore, on set.

• 1:09:42Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please do sign up for my newsletter at guyraz.com or on Substack. This episode was researched and produced by Catherine Seifer with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Anlee Huang. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Alex Chung, Sam Paulson, Carla Estevez, J.C. Howard, John Isabella, and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.