Remembering Kate Spade

We are incredibly saddened by the loss of the brilliant designer and entrepreneur Kate Spade. We are grateful she and her husband Andy Spade shared their story with us in 2017. The origins of the Kate Spade brand can be drawn back to a 1991 conversation at a Mexican restaurant, when Andy asked Kate, "What's missing in designer handbags?" Kate's answer was a simple modern-shaped handbag that launched the iconic fashion brand. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  Hey, it's Guy here. So we've been hearing from a lot of you since we all found out the tragic news about Kate Spade. Kate and her husband, Andy, came to our New York studios last year, and they sat down for what would become one of my favorite all-time episodes of How I Built This. They were both so likable in every way. They were self-effacing and also self-deprecating. They were kind, giggly, smart, and most importantly, they were generous. They were generous with their reflections and generous with the lessons they learned all along the way. So as a small tribute to Kate, we decided to repost this interview. Listen to her voice and her laughter

• 0:43Guy Raz?

  and her warmth, and I think you'll get a sense of the kind of person she was.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  We were still not making any money. Nobody was making a salary. We were-- Andy was funding everything. I just remember thinking, I think we need to shut it down. I said, it's--

• 1:02Speaker 02

  We had run through our 401(k) money and, you know, all of our savings at that point. We still weren't seeing, you know, a progression that was going to pay us a salary in the next year, in the near future. So we thought, all right, we had a good run at it. We think we've had it.

• 1:21Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 1:35Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, how a Midwestern kid named Kate Brosnahan took a roll of burlap, sewed it into handbags, and launched an iconic brand called Kate Spade.

• 1:52Guy Raz?

  The person behind the brand you know as Kate Spade grew up as Kate Brosnahan in Kansas City, Missouri. And she always loved fashion, but she never planned to work in fashion. In fact, she wanted to be a journalist. So in the early 1980s, she went off to study journalism at Arizona State University. And that was where Kate met her future husband, Andy Spade.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  We worked together at a clothing store, and I was on the women's side. He was on the men's side. And one day, his car broke down. And he asked me for a ride home. And we really started off as really great friends.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  And the car continued to break down. So I think it nurtured our relationship along.

• 2:37Guy Raz?

  And the rest of the story, well, 30-plus years later, they're still together. Anyway, Kate graduated from college first. Andy was a few credits short. So she decided to backpack around Europe by herself.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Traveled around and came back to New York and went to a temp agency because I desperately needed some money.

• 3:00Guy Raz?

  Why did you want to move to New York?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Well, it was kind of, I really was expecting to go back to Arizona to be with Andy, but that's where my ticket, it started and ended in New York. And I didn't have the money to get back, so I needed a job in order to do that. So I started at a temp place and I was typing and they said, I don't think this is going to work out. And then she called the next day and said, can you get ready right now? Conde Nast called and they have a job in the fashion department. So they ended up hiring me. They didn't want to because I couldn't type. And my boss said, listen, she's great and I don't need her to type a lot. Because we were doing fashion shoots and styling, so it wasn't as, you know.

• 3:44Guy Raz?

  What were you doing at Conde Nast?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Well, I started as an assistant. So I was tying, you know, models' shoes on a photo shoot because they couldn't bend over in their clothes. That or getting hairstylists. Snickers, I'm telling you, whatever. I ironed and carried bags and it was a lot of work. I'll say that.

• 4:05Guy Raz?

  And meantime, Andy, you were back in Tempe at Arizona State University?

• 4:10Speaker 02

  I was back in Tempe. I was struggling with a few required courses. I think I had more credits than necessary, but there were a few that I couldn't get through. But I did start an advertising agency my senior year in college. And so I started trading ads for bartering food. So I'd go to a restaurant, for example, and I'd bring in the ad that they had running in the local paper. And I would show it to them and say, I think I can do better if I come back and show you a better version of this. Will you either pay me in food or give me a few hundred dollars? I had like 10 takers, so I ended up with 10 accounts. I mean, things were going well. And Kate, were you still planning to head back to Arizona at that point?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Yes. And I kept saying, oh, I'm coming back. I will only stay here for six months. Well, first of all, it was three months. Then I moved it to six. And then finally, I said, I have to be honest. I kind of liked my job. I loved it and I loved the, you know, the fast pace of New York. And suddenly, it just, I loved it.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Well, she got her job offer for $14,000 a year. Everything changed. She said, I'm staying. And that's when I said, well, I'm gonna, I'm moving to New York. And you just figured, I'll find something there? Yeah, I'd figured I'd find something there. I had a little portfolio of advertisements that I'd written and art directed. And so I took that with me to New York in hopes of finding a job. And what, did you guys, did you like move in together?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  We did.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  I forwarded a little bit of money that I had to Kate for a security deposit on the cheapest apartment she could find. And I remember arriving and Kate said, call me from a payphone on the corner when you arrive and I'll get out on the fire escape. So I called and I walked to 26 Renwick Street. And I looked up and she was out on the fire escape. And she threw down a sock with a key in it.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  It's easier to throw it down than to walk. And you had like your suitcase with you? I had one warm coat, a suitcase, and a portfolio. Wow. And did you, Kate, I know you went to an all-girls Catholic high school.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Did your parents have a problem with you living with Andy?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  They never really said much, but my mother was not pleased with it.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  She was not pleased with it at all. But, I mean, I just kept saying it was a matter of economics. We were just being practical.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  So Andy, did you actually land a job in advertising?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  I did. I was interviewing in a lot of programs like Y and R and Ogilvy and May there, but my portfolio didn't reflect the kinds of accounts that they were working on, Cars and IBM. But one day I was walking through Grand Central Station and a young man in a suit pulled me over. I was carrying my portfolio and he said, "What do you do?" And I said, "Well, I'm looking for a job as a copywriter." And he said, "Do you have a minute?" I said, "Sure." He said, "I'd love to look at your portfolio." And we stopped in Grand Central Station. He went through my portfolio and he said, "I think I might have something for you. I'm a recruiter. Just happened to see me while I was at Grand Central Station."

• 7:04Speaker 03

  Wow. Is that crazy?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  I can't believe this is an honest to God true story. And he went through it and he said, "Meet me in my office tomorrow," which I did. And he sent me on three or four interviewers, one of which was an agency named Bozell Jacobs Kenyon and Eckhart. And they had an opening for someone to work on the Army National Guard and Merrill Lynch. And he said, "I know you haven't had any experience on these types of businesses, but I like your chutzpah." At the time, I didn't know what chutzpah meant until I called someone and I said, "What does it mean?" And they said, "Oh, it means you have, you know, you took a chance starting your own business. It's a positive." And so I got that job.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  So, OK, so you guys are in your early 20s. You're living the New York life. Kate, you're working at Conde Nast.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Right, at Mademoiselle Magazine.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  At Mademoiselle Magazine, which is pretty great, actually.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  It was amazing. I mean, my mom framed when they put my name in the masthead. She still has it framed.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  And what were you doing? What did you start to do there?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Well, it was first assistant with a senior fashion editor. And then I was promoted to associate editor and I was in charge of all the accessories. And I did that for a couple of years, then they promoted me to senior fashion editor. And if there's one thing I did learn was how to be very resourceful. And it came in very handy for when we started our business because, I mean, it was, "Do not come back to me with no." I mean, "You figure it out." I mean, it would be, "We have to go on a shoot in two days and we need eight tickets to the Bahamas." And it was, "Figure out how to get us all there." I mean, if we're all on different airplanes, I don't care, but get us there. And I was like, "Make it happen."

• 8:45Speaker 03

  So I guess it was sort of the early 90s, like maybe 1991, when you decided to leave Mademoiselle Magazine.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  What was going on? Why did you decide to go?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  It's funny, you know, Andy and I were talking one night and I just said, I was looking ahead and I saw the fashion directors, that would be your next jump from being senior fashion editor. And I thought, I don't, I don't really see myself wanting that, that job. So Andy and I were out, honestly, at a Mexican restaurant and he just said, what about handbags? And I said, honey, you just don't start a handbag company. And he said, why not? How hard could it be? I thought, OK, really? He regrets those words.

• 9:29Guy Raz?

  Why handbags, Andy?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Well, she was an accessories editor and she collected, you know, handbags for her fashion shoots. That was one of her key responsibilities. So she would have to get handbags from, you know, vintage stores for beach shoots, straw bags. She had a, a personal collection that was amazing and then she knew every handbag company in the market. And I thought she understood it better than anyone, what's missing in the market.

• 9:51Guy Raz?

  And what was missing in the market at the time, Kate?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  At the time, things were very, bags were too complicated. And I really loved very simple kind of architectural shapes. And I would wear these very simple shapes, none of which were famous designers. I mean, there were no names. If someone were to say, whose is that? I'd say, I don't know. I bought it at a vintage store or it's a straw bag I got in Mexico. So, and they were all very square and simple. And I thought, gosh, I mean, why can't we find something just clean and simple and modern?

• 10:23Guy Raz?

  So, OK, so about this time that, that you wanted to quit, you were thinking, like, I'm done with fashion magazines?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:30Guy Raz?

  And Andy was like, you know, bags, you know, like, why don't you try to do this, this on your own?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely. He had actually said it before I quit, so I kind of already had it in the back of my mind. And I remember at the very beginning thinking, why didn't I stay? I could have made an income while I was working on this. And someone said to me, The truth is, you would never have done it had you stayed. Because I wouldn't have been as scrappy or as, I mean, it was kind of, you know, do or die. So I think if I'd still been working, I would have been like, uh, a little bit more lackadaisical about it, whereas when you don't have an income coming in, you're doing whatever you can to make it happen.

• 11:07Speaker 03

  So how did you even start to, to design handbags? I mean, you had no background in design.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  How did you even know what to do and like, what, and how to sew things and put rivets in and all that stuff?

• 11:20Speaker 01

  It's funny, I did not know. And I did start by buying big sheets of white paper. And I would cut out and tape, honestly, the shape that I wanted. And then I'd look at it and I'd make it shorter, smaller, cut it. And I went to a pattern maker that I found in the back of Women's Wear Daily. She advertised that she made patterns. So I contacted her. She worked out of her apartment and she was as patient as could be with me because I didn't know anything. And I remember being really embarrassed about that, that I wasn't, you know, a student from Parsons or RISD or FIT, that I really didn't know what I was doing. And I honestly started with paper, then we'd make a sample out of any kind of fabric, muslin.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  And then I kind of got the shape down and I had to find a manufacturer. So I called Women's Wear Daily. They connected me to a department that, they really said, we don't do that. But someone in the fashion department said, oh, it's so odd. I know someone, and he had left himself, this production guy, to start his own business.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  So was this guy that, that you found, was he, was he a designer?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  He wasn't a designer, he was a manufacturer. So he did the production. And so I brought in my samples and he was like, okay, well, I want some money up front. And he really was very nervous that I wasn't going to pay him. But he took our tiny little production, honestly, which would be Ten bags at a time, you know.

• 12:48Speaker 03

  And how, how long after, like, you, you sort of start to sketch out designs was this? Was this like a few weeks later, a month later? What, what, did you, were you working on this idea for a long time in your apartment?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, I'd say at least a year, Andy.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, at least a year, and you were freelancing at night and certain days a week as a stylist. And, you know, after getting the patterns made, the, the next big challenge was finding someone who would sell us fabric. And because we didn't have any experience, none of the fabric houses would sell us anything other than 100 yards, for example, right?

• 13:23Speaker 03

  And 100 yards was obviously too much.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  500 yards.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  We only needed to make six bags. We had six shapes, so we only needed probably 40 yards, 30 yards?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  20, 25. So I called, I looked in the Yellow Pages, and I looked up burlap, and I found a potato sack company that was willing to sell to me.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  Huh.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  And they had three different, you know, weights, and I needed the heaviest weight so that it was, you know, substantial enough for a handbag. And that was actually our first collection.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Made out of burlap?

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Made out of burlap.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  So what did the bags look like? Were they were sort of, I'm imagining like brown burlap, kind of rectangular little bags?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely, with raffia fringe and this webbing handle. And I found a webbing company also in the Yellow Pages.

• 14:15Speaker 03

  All right, so you get this, you get these samples, and then what you, how do you get that, how do you start? What's the first thing you do?

• 14:21Speaker 01

  You go to these accessory shows.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Trade shows.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Trade shows, and you have to get accepted. And we did, and of course, you know, you're, you get the worst spot because all the famous people end up in the front.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  This was in, in New York?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  In New York, at Javits Center.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  This was the first trade show you went to, debut the Kate Spade burlap bag?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Yes. And we honest to God brought in our own tables, our own chairs. We brought in lamps.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  From our apartment. Our apartment, actually, our booth turned into our apartment for the

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Basically.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  For the week, yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 03

  Were you guys nervous? I mean, Kate, were you like, I don't know, were you worried that maybe somebody from Kinda and Astor would see you and you'd be a little embarrassed?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:01Speaker 03

  Or that somebody would sort of call you out and say, what do you do? Or who are you guys? Were you freaking out?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yes. I was. Because the editors can buy, as well as the buyers, to the trade shows. And I really didn't tell my parents or my family about it, or anyone for that matter, because I thought if it doesn't work, I will be so embarrassed, because everyone kept saying, why would you have quit your job? You had insurance, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, who do you think you are? I just knew my family would just, you know, oh, you got a little hot-headed, big-headed there in New York and think you can start this company. So I kept it on the down-low.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  We intentionally didn't really talk about it much to family, because I think secretly we both thought it would fail.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  How did people respond to the bags?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Well, I remember crying, because when I came home, we hadn't even sold enough to cover the cost of the booth. And I started crying. And Andy said, well, who did you get? And I said, well, we got Barney's. And he said, okay. And I said, Fred Segal in Los Angeles. And he was like, right. And then it was, he goes, Katie, he said, you've got two of the best stores in America. Why are you crying? I said, I think we should shut it down. I'm very conservative. And I said, I have no interest in losing money. I said, and we've, you know, we've already spent $4,000. And now that's it for me. I'm not a gambler. So that's where Andy was like, no, keep going. And also, I have to give a great deal of credit to the editors. Now, at the time, we weren't selling a lot,

• 16:34Speaker 01

  but the editors were putting us in the magazines a lot.

• 16:38Speaker 03

  What was it about your bags that appealed to them, or that got their attention?

• 16:42Speaker 01

  I think because it wasn't anything anyone was doing. And everyone, there's a fabric show in Paris called Première Vision that all the designers go to. So sometimes you could end up with the same materials. Mine came out of the Yellow Pages. Chances are, I wasn't going to run into any people that had the same materials. So we were doing something different, which was really to our advantage.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  So editors were like, look at these beautiful burlap bags.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Well, they thought they were beautiful, but I knew they thought they were interesting.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  And we did. We got a lot of credits. And that's when my mother first found out. And she was embarrassed. And she called and said, you know, how embarrassing that you didn't tell me. And my friend had to tell me. And I said, oh, you know, I don't know. I don't want to make a big deal of this. And, you know, OK, it's one credit. That's not a business, you know?

• 17:31Speaker 03

  How did you come up-- how did you sort of land on the name Kate Spade?

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Well, that was Andy. Because we were-- I was not Kate Spade. I was Kate Brosnahan. And I kept coming up with these names. And Andy kept saying Kate Spade, because we were 50/50 partners. And finally, I just said, OK. And everyone said, I love it. Kate Spade, New York. And I remember telling, to your point about my Catholic parents, I told my mom. Honestly, she burst into flames. And she was like, but you're not Kate Spade. And I said, I know. But she said, oh, now you'll never be Kate Spade. Now you've, you know, you've jinxed it. And why would you name it Kate Spade? And I said, well, it's my first name, his last name. And it's like Dolce and Gabbana. And she goes, who the hell's that?

• 18:19Speaker 01

  And I said, never mind. I said, it'll work. We hope.

• 18:29Guy Raz?

  In just a minute, why, after three years of making no money, Kate and Andy almost walked away from their little handbag company. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

• 18:48Guy Raz?

  It's How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So when Kate and Andy debuted the original Kate Spade bag, they got orders from Barneys and Fred Segal. And that was a big deal in the world of fashion. But even with those orders, it didn't mean Kate and Andy were suddenly flush with cash or living large in New York. It wasn't even a guarantee that the company was going to be successful. In fact, Andy, he kept his full-time job in advertising.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  You know, paying the overhead.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Basically, the rent and the other expenses, right?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Well, Kate freelanced and started the company. And I just thought, well, we're both 29, 30 years old. And-- You know, it's time to do it. We don't have children. Let's not quit, even if we lose everything. Kate can always go back to a fashion job. I can continue to work in advertising.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  And you guys were running the company like out of your apartment?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Well, we had to move to a loft in Tribeca because we were in a small apartment. Then we moved to a loft. We had boxes, honestly, guy, everywhere. To the point where our loft bed was up these stairs that we'd crawl up. The entire apartment was just a sea of brown boxes. But that sounds like we were doing very well.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  But it really wasn't. We were still...

• 20:00Speaker 03

  You were shipping out things from the apartment?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, for at least two and a half years.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  So Katie would take the train to Brooklyn to the factory, pick up the boxes, take them back on the subway.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  In trash bags.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  In trash bags, walk them up, a five-floor walk-up. And she was shipping and packing bags and doing everything and taking orders on the fax machine. I remember they'd come through in the middle of the night. We'd hear, "Rrr, rrr, rrr." I go, "Good." We'd get excited.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  But the orders would not be that big because it was hard to... For people at that time to kind of... Once they started selling, then you get bigger orders. So it was really very gradual. I mean, it was at least three years before we paid ourselves maybe 15,000 a year.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  That's the fourth year we paid ourselves 15,000. And we were still working out of our apartment.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  And it was our home office and our shipping warehouse and our home.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Did you start to see, in the first year or two, women walking around New York with Kate's bait bags?

• 21:00Speaker 01

  I did, most of whom were editors, who were getting them at a very good discount. But eventually, we started to see it. And I remember thinking, when I did, that was a big deal. And, you know, I think it took people a while. Even my family, my sister was working at Gucci and actually called me and said, "We're all pitching in." For mom, for Mother's Day, to get her a Gucci bag. And I thought, what? Are you serious?

• 21:30Speaker 02

  I remember that.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Because I really didn't think it would be much. I still should be upset with them about that. Hopefully, they're listening.

• 21:38Speaker 03

  So, so all the while, you're shipping bags out, you're getting orders in, and you are still designing bags?

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  So you're working like crazy?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  We are. And what we ended up doing was we took on two partners for sweat equity only. It was my friend Elise Aaron's, my best friend since I was 18, and then Pamela Bell, someone that we'd just met through friends here in New York. So the three of us were in cars going to the factories. I was really doing the design only, but, you know, I also was steaming the bags, boxing, packing, all of it.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  And how were you guys funding all this? I mean, was it, was it all with your own money?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got a job offer to work for Saatchi in Saatchi in L.A. And I, I almost tripled my salary. And, you know, we were still funding the company ourselves. And we needed money for fabric, and we needed money for the trade shows. And so we both agreed that I would go to L.A.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  Oh, Andy, you did move to L.A.?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Oh, he did. And I thought I could go back and forth. And at the time, Elise and Pamela would hold down the New York part, and I would do FedEx in all my designs and materials and...

• 22:45Speaker 02

  I rented a little house that I called the house I never lived in. I never bought a piece of furniture. And I just took the money and sent it, you know, put it back into the business.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  Did you ever hit a point in, in the first few years where you thought this was going to collapse? This was going to fail?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yes. And I remember calling back to Elise and Pamela in New York, and I said, I think we need to shut it down. I said, it's...

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Wow, were you guys like in debt or?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  It was hard. I mean, it was, we were still not making any money. Nobody was making a salary. We were, Andy was funding everything. And at that point, we were all kind of putting money in. Pamela would put in some, Elise. And I just remember thinking, oh, again, it's like...

• 23:23Speaker 02

  We had run through our 401(k) money and, you know, all of our savings at that point. We still weren't seeing, you know, a progression that was going to pay us a salary in the next year, in the near future. And we thought, all right, we had a good run at it. And I think we called the partners who we brought in as equity partners on a handshake without any salary. And we said, we think we've had it because we were exhausted. And they said, well, we just left to start with you. And we haven't had any returns on our time we've put in. The deal's not, you know, not working. So we felt like you can't just walk out. And I remember we spoke and said, all right, we're going to go back.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Do you remember what year that was?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think. 95?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  95, 96, 95, probably. 95. And I did get another job in New York, a great job, actually.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  But still, the company was not making money, not profitable. What was the turning point? What happened?

• 24:21Speaker 01

  I would say the stores really started to buy more. We were in Saks and Neiman's. And when the larger department stores started to buy, it kind of really took off. And we won the CFDA Award, which is the Council of Fashion Designers of America. And there were reporters from around the country, not just New York, at the show that were saying, oh, who is this? And so that really, really helped us a great deal, I have to say.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  That was the award that most small American designers didn't win at the time. It was usually Ralph Lauren, Calvin Klein, Donna, Karen, all of those people. And I remember, Kate, when we came back to New York and we were hoping something would happen, that either Neiman's or Saks, they were buying for two or three stores. And they said, we're going to buy for all of our stores. And that was 50 stores or more than 50 stores. And that quadrupled our business.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  But what you have to realize is, when that happens, although it's very good, you also have to upfront pay for the production. They don't pay you for 30 to 60 days. So I remember thinking, how are we going to afford this? But we never borrowed a dime, ever.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Was there something that you guys did, like a business decision that you made that was the key to turning this around? Or was it just more people started to discover it? And you had just persevered through those rough years? And then it finally just kind of on its own, you know, got discovered?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  That's exactly what happened. I mean, it really was just kind of a little bit of a snowball effect. You know, it just got a little bigger and a little bigger and a little bigger. And I think at the point where the larger department stores were picking us up, I think then we realized, I think we have a business here. We loved it. We kept getting larger and larger spaces and stores, which is very important. You know, at first, you're on a tiny little table, then maybe you get a few bigger space and shelves, and the next thing you know, you have store and store, shop and shop is what they call them, where your name is above it, really big.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. How did you feel about that, to see your, to walk into a fancy, you know, store and see your name there?

• 26:30Speaker 01

  I think it was more fun for my mom, actually. But it was a lot of fun. I have to say, in the opening of stores, you know, we'd opened a store in SoHo, tiny little 300 square foot store, and the next thing, you know, we're opening a bigger store in New York, and then we're opening in Los Angeles and Chicago. And, you know, it was kind of, at that point, it became a little dizzying and a bit of a whirlwind, but it was fun.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  And so, at some point, you guys sold a part of the company. Was that to sort of scale up, or like, to make it even bigger?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  You know, it was also a safety net, quite honestly, for us personally. And it was Nevin Marcus, and we thought that would be somebody that would be in a position to help us.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  And they bought a little bit more than 50% of the company at the time?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  They did. They bought 56%.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  And reportedly for more than $30 million. So was that just insane to you guys?

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yes, it was.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  They were, I think, our biggest client or store at the time. And we were doing very well with them, and they had just started investing in other little brands that they thought had potential. And yeah, they came to us. We were completely in shock.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  And it was exciting, because we thought, wow. If everything goes away tomorrow, you know, we'll be able to sustain the business.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  I mean, it was really about, you know, being able to have a bit of an essay going forward for the four of us.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  And then what did that mean when Neiman Marcus bought more than half the company? How did it change Kate Spade?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  We started going into more categories because they were encouraging that, which a lot of the stores, not just Neiman's, you know, it was Saks, all of them were really encouraging us to branch out into other categories. So we did Stationery Next, which that was right when the phones and emails and all that were replacing people writing notes. And people came to us and they said, well, when we said another category, we didn't mean, you know, a dying category. So I think what they were implying was shoes. They really wanted some real substantial second categories or third, fourth. So then we started doing shoes and it really just started, you know, I think it was just a good boost.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  And, I mean, you guys probably had to go from you and Andy and your two partners to lots of employees quickly, right?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  We did, but we had done that actually, you know, in the process, slowly, slowly changing, you know, offices. And we'd take a floor and then we'd take another floor in the building and then we started hiring people.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  We started hiring departments.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  And different departments and production people and then hiring people that had more experience. So I really had a lot of people around and Andy did. Andy really surrounded himself with a really great art department. And I really had great designers with me and I think we really developed employees that were amazing.

• 29:16Speaker 03

  When did you start to see Kate Spade bags all over the place? Like, because of course Kate is a huge iconic brand. When did you first kind of realize that that was the case?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  I'd say it was about 97. It was still very New York, though, I must say. Very New York, Los Angeles, Chicago.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  I think it was about 98 or 99, where you would see them, you know, in any city that you went to.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  And counterfeit started around 90.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  That was about true, yes.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  And we started seeing them on Canal Street.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Which Andy said, that's actually a compliment. He said, you know, you're doing something right when they're on every blanket on every street corner.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  And I think, I think we celebrated for a day and then the next day that was over.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  You guys sold the rest of your, your share of Kate Spade, I guess, in around 2007 and kind of just walked away from it. Why'd you decide to do that?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  So, we had a baby in 2005 and I just remember thinking, it was a perfect opportunity. And I think the point was that Neiman Marcus at the time was selling themselves to Texas Pacific. And they involved us, and I must give them a lot of credit for that. But when we sold, I remember thinking, now, it's kind of like we have a, a boss. And I, I remember thinking, I want to leave on, on good terms. It was a perfect time to leave. I wanted to spend time with my daughter. It was, you've heard so many horror stories about people who sell and then they stay and then they fight and then they sue. And I just thought, ugh, that's too ugly for me. So, we left on great terms.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  We stayed, we did a turnover for a year, I think we were there.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, transitioned to make sure all the employees who we loved had, had agreements to carry on and making sure everyone understood what the process was.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  And they understood, the new owners understood. And they were very gracious and I think we all handled it very well. And it was seamless. It was a very quiet exit.

• 31:18Speaker 03

  Do you guys, I mean, you guys obviously had this incredibly strong marriage. I mean, you met when you were college students. You're still together. You have a, you created this, these amazing brands. And how do you, how do you have a marriage and a business and make it work?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  I mean, I'll say from my perspective, I remember people saying, how do you work together? And I was thrilled. And Andy, one day, said, listen. I said, oh, wait up, wait up, I'm not ready yet. And he said, oh, no, no, let me tell you right now, if you think that every day, we're going to go to office together, and we're going to have lunch together. He said, that's not happening. We actually worked on separate floors for that very reason, because I had a tendency to go into his office, and he'd be on the phone, and I'd say, get off the phone, I have something to tell you, or ask you. And that, we had to really, I had to, myself, find boundaries. And we had to make a conscious effort not to talk about it 24/7, which is, as you can tell by how quickly I talk, my tendency.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  And I also am very nervous person, I worry a lot, and Andy could not be more different.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  You were like the sleepless nights person?

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Yes. And always, you know, the sky is falling. And Andy was like, you know, it's fine.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  And I think that because we kind of grew up together, you know, from our 20s up until now in our 50s. And we actually have a lot in common, which helps.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  You guys recently launched a new company together. You call it Francis Valentine.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  And Kate, you changed your name from Kate Spade to Kate Valentine?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  I did. Well, I added it, I didn't change it. I just added Francis Valentine into it. So it's very, it's Catherine Noel Francis Valentine Brosnan Spade. It's like, pretty long.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Did you do it in part because Kate Spade had become its own thing, and beyond a single person?

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Yes, and I thought it was important to make sure that we weren't stepping on any toes, and that we distinguished our company. And I think that was important for both of us. I mean, people still call me Kate Spade, I go by it, but I get confused myself, so you can call me Francis if you want.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  And can you tell me about Francis Valentine? What does the company do?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  We are doing shoes and handbags. And we actually, when we started... It was initially just shoes. And although we've only been in business for a

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Not a year, just a year.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  A little over a year. But we've realized that people were expecting bags.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  And I mean, now you're, I mean, it's a little bit different, right? Because the hunger is, I'm sure it's still there, but it's not like a do or die thing. Like, it must be, but I don't know. Is it less stressful?

• 34:06Speaker 02

  We have air conditioning. I think that's the big difference, right? Elevators and air conditioning.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. I would say there's, it's both. I feel a little more confident. I think Andy feels the same because we've done it before. But on the same hand, you think that people are expecting a great deal. So there's still, there's still a lot of pressure, trust me. And we're self-financing again, so I'm not crazy about, as I mentioned earlier, losing any money.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  So, you know, this thing better work.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  Do you, when you walk past a Kate Spade shop today or see a bag, do you, do you feel an emotional attachment to it? Or is it sort of like, well, you know, that's a different thing now?

• 34:51Speaker 01

  It's funny, because I, I do look at it and I don't, people said, oh, do you have any regrets? And I remember thinking, oh, I hope I don't. And I never have. And I think they've done such a good job that luckily I don't have to have. And we do walk by the stores. And I have a funny story that we actually walked into a store to buy my daughter something. And we went to the cash register and she said, are you on our mailing list? And I said, I don't think so. And so then I used my maiden name and I said, she said, Brosnan. And then my daughter kind of kept nudging me. She was dying for me to say something. And I didn't. And then I remember thinking, you know, no, I'm not on your mailing list, but I think I helped create it.

• 35:35Guy Raz?

  That's Kate and Andy Spade. And by the way, if you've ever heard of Jack Spade Bags for Men, Kate and Andy were behind those two. And no, Jack is not a real person, just a cool name.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, people constantly are saying, "You know Jack and Kate Spade, right?" Or, "You know Kate and Jack Spade?" And then I don't want to embarrass them, but I'll say, "Oh, you mean Andy?" And they're like, "Oh, Andy."

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Too complicated.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  "Are you divorced? Where's Jack?"