Advice Line with Curt Richardson of OtterBox

Today’s callers: Andy from Sarasota weighs whether the path to scalability for his live game show business is through personality or product. Then, Marissa from Tampa wants to recapture sales for her fairy tale-inspired teas after taking a hiatus to focus on her family. And Vince from New Jersey wonders how to allocate marketing dollars for his sustainable baby gear company.. Plus, Curt reflects on the importance of focus in sustaining OtterBox as a leading tech accessories brand over 30 years. Thank you to the founders of Mr GameShow, Gilded Coach Teas, and Evrloop for being a part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to OtterBox's founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/6af71551-3c72-4d02-9d91-2c6174a0a154/embed as told by Curt on the show in 2019. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ and on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Guy Raz?

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• 1:29Guy Raz?

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• 2:59Guy Raz?

  Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just

• 3:43Guy Raz?

  might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is OtterBox founder Kurt Richardson. Kurt was first on the show back in 2019. And if you missed that episode and you want to go back and listen, we will drop a link to it in our episode show notes. Kurt grew up in a tiny mountain town in southern Colorado. And when he was just 21, Kurt bought his own small plastics company. And for years, he had a really rough time of it until he came across a book called The E-Myth, which helped him understand what truly matters at the core.

• 4:26Guy Raz?

  And this insight eventually led Kurt to build Otter products, which started out as small waterproof boxes for outdoor enthusiasts. And when the iPhone exploded in popularity, OtterBox was in place to become the dominant phone case brand in the US, growing the company from $5 to $575 million in just five years. Fast forward to today, Kurt is no longer the CEO, but he's now the company's Chief Visionary Officer, and we are so happy to have him back on the show. Kurt, welcome back to How I Built This.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  No, thank you for having me. I remember when we met in Denver, it was a great time.

• 5:03Guy Raz?

  We did. We did a live show together. It was super fun. When you were on that show back in 2019, what did you think the next five years would look like? And of course, what eventually actually happened?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  I was out or getting out of running day to day by then, which was something I desired. I think any entrepreneur many times hits a size of a business where it's like, okay, this is beyond my skills. I'm great at startup, but this has turned into operational.

• 5:34Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  So I went through a number of CEOs in the meantime, learned some hard lessons there. And we've got a great CEO and great executive team now in place at Otter and seeing some great benefits from it.

• 5:47Guy Raz?

  Initially, OtterBox was known as the protective case. If you dropped a phone from a building, you knew it was going to be fine. Now, you've got a whole range of products out there. I mean, when you are the top brand, what does growth look like? How do you innovate? How do you get bigger? Or is that even, does it even matter?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Well, we've been around 30 years. So for us, it really is listening to the customer, watching the market. A lot of things have changed and continue to evolve in the marketplace, although we've really become a commodity. So when we grew, we went clear up to 1.1 billion in revenue. And the market has shrunk. People don't buy phones as often. So as far as overall revenue, we've dropped, but as far as overall profit, we've come up. So for Otter, it was all about getting better at what we do and how we sell the product, whether it's D to C, whether it's through distribution.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  You don't always have to be first to be there, but when you get there, you need to be very present.

• 6:58Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Kurt, I remember, we spoke about this a little bit, but one of the other things that you're focused on is this other business that you started called Blue Ocean Enterprises, really focusing on investing in businesses that are designed to stimulate the economy and engage the community. I hear from a lot of startup founders who are trying to build the next interesting or cool consumer brand or consumer product. And often I'll say, the businesses that are consistently successful, at least in the US, are the ones you don't hear about, the boring, I hate to use that word, but the boring

• 7:36Guy Raz?

  businesses that actually provide goods and services that many industries need. And really, OtterBox started out that way. You weren't making, it evolved into what it is today. If you were starting OtterBox today with no brand and no distribution and no capital, really, could you still build it in the same way? Or would you have to do it differently, do you think?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  I don't know that I would have to do it differently. Would I do it differently? Well, sure, I'd love to have the kind of capital to really just hit it hard. But you know what? There's a lot to be learned from bootstrapping it. There's a lot to be learned from having to do stuff the hard way. I think it makes you a better business person. It also makes you looking like, how do I do this differently? The innovation isn't always in the product. The innovation is very much so in the business. How do I do this business right in the right way? And I think that's a huge question that a lot of people never ask. They're always looking for the next new product, and we've done that.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  We did coolers, we did clothing, all of which we don't do anymore. Focus is so important. We focus on phone cases and mobile accessories.

• 8:57Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Well, Kurt, we asked you to come onto the show to help us do what was one of the things that you really love doing, which is mentoring. And we've got some callers waiting for advice with some questions. You ready to take our first call?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 9:10Guy Raz?

  All right, let's bring on our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Kurt Richardson, founder of OtterBox. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, please.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Hello, Guy. Hello, Kurt. This is Andy Jeremiah in Sarasota, Florida. My wife, Tracy, and I founded Mr. Game Show Florida in 2020. We conduct live game show events in the many gated communities in the area. Our mission is to have everybody play a game at least once a week. So we offer free print and play games and game night ideas on our website as well.

• 9:40Guy Raz?

  All right. Thanks for calling in, Andy. Okay, so Mr. Game Show. So tell me, you convene game nights. Tell me specifically what you do.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  So our primary business is putting on live game show events. So communities here are always looking for something to put on their calendar. So we offer Music Bingo, a twist on Family Feud, a twist on the Wheel of Fortune. The unique part about our games is that we're very scalable from 12 to 200 people. And we just make sure everybody has a ton of fun.

• 10:08Guy Raz?

  And these are retirement communities, I'm assuming, right? Mainly?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, most of them are definitely 50 plus. But yeah, there are some family communities now in this area as well.

• 10:17Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay, cool. And how long have you been doing this?

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Well, we started in 2020. Out of COVID, our community was looking for games and we just started doing Music Bingo in the parking lot. It went so well, I started offering it to other nearby communities. And, you know, things took off from there.

• 10:32Guy Raz?

  Wow. And tell me, how many events do you do a year, roughly?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  We average about 10 events a month as a side hustle. We did just over 50K last year, all through word of mouth, no advertising, no social media.

• 10:46Guy Raz?

  Okay. And what does an event cost?

• 10:50Speaker 02

  We start at 350 for a 90 minute event. And it'll go a little bit more if we have to travel farther than a little radius that we like to stay in.

• 10:57Guy Raz?

  Okay, so pretty, you know, relatively affordable even for an events budget at a community center. Okay.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 11:04Guy Raz?

  Before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

• 11:06Speaker 02

  So we'd like to scale Mr. Game Show nationwide by providing our content to others who want to start their own local game show business. It's relatively low cost to start. We have great, unique content. We have a twist on a lot of, you know, popular, familiar games. We just want to get that material out to more folks. And we're just looking for a good pathway to get there.

• 11:26Guy Raz?

  All right, Kurt Richardson, I'll bring you in here. Andy's got this business. They're hosting games. Trying to figure out how to scale this, how to make this a bigger brand or bigger business.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, scalability, big question. And a tough one when it's so dependent on you. There's a lot of different ways to go here. Maybe it's an app kind of thing that they can buy into and you're giving them new content all the time. Maybe it's a video play. It's a training tool. It's a kit somebody buys. Maybe it's a subscription based deal. That could be one way to go about it. To me, it seems like you've got to create a lot of content. So I guess, are you technical enough to be able to do that on your own? Can you, you and your wife put together that? Or that's sellable?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  We have, I mean, I was a former corporate trainer. So I'm great at developing, you know, documentation. And so we have a lot of, you know, for example, our trivia game, we have over 26 sets, you know, unique sets, ready to go, which I think are easy for other folks to kind of grab and, you know, promote themselves in their local market.

• 12:38Guy Raz?

  Andy, I have a question for you. What do you, if I say to you, hey, what's your product? What's your, what are you selling? What's your answer?

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Fun. We're selling fun.

• 12:47Guy Raz?

  Fun. Okay. I would argue, I would argue, and I don't, I can tell by just talking to you here, and I haven't been there, I would argue that you are the product, that you and Tracy are the product, because it's not just Music Bingo. It's what you're bringing to it, the charisma and the excitement, probably the way you host, probably the way you write questions or jokes, you know, making sure that people have a great experience. And so the challenge is, is how do you scale Andy and Tracy, right? You know, we had a question about, similar to this in a recent advice line episode from somebody who had a training business and was trying to figure out how to scale that. And I, my advice to

• 13:30Guy Raz?

  them is the same I would give to you, which is, you may want to start with an experiment. So where in Florida are you?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Sarasota area.

• 13:38Guy Raz?

  Sarasota, okay. So you're not too far from Tampa, is that right? Okay. So maybe find somebody in Tampa that you can train, that you can give them your materials and let them run a few events and maybe show up and take notes and see what happens. See if customers are just as happy. And that's where you start to get the answer. Can this scale? Can I create material that I can license and build actually a business that is a Mr. Game Show branded or certified host, you know, down the line? Anyway, that's my initial thought. Kurt, sorry, back to you.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  No, I did. That was great. Because I was kind, honestly, I'm kind of stumped by this, just because I'm such a product guy. And this is a product, and you're right, and he's the product.

• 14:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Can he duplicate himself? Can he sell that? I mean, that's, that's the question. And that's a great experiment. I think that's one of probably a couple of different ways for you to go, yeah, this is doable, or eh, maybe not.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  You know, maybe it's just, maybe I'm just going to keep doing this and make my 50 to 75,000 a year and be good with it.

• 14:51Guy Raz?

  Now, you did say something interesting about your background, Andy. You said you were in corporate training at some point?

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Correct. Yes.

• 14:58Guy Raz?

  Okay, that's great. So you know, you know what it means to build scripts and to build, you know, content and a playbook and, you know, rules and all of the systems. So knowing that, if you can find compelling, exciting people, theoretically, this could work. You know, this is the whole Zumba model. In Zumba, you pay a license fee to be a Zumba instructor. Anybody could kind of replicate a Zumba like class, but to actually be a Zumba certified instructor, to get that, you know, on your, you know, on your title when you're trying to advertise a course, you've got to pay a license fee. That's, that's

• 15:41Guy Raz?

  the value. So maybe, you know, you start to build this out thinking, all right, can we make Mr. Game Show that thing? You know, oh, it's a Mr. Game Show host? We want this person in our retirement community. But I think I would start with identifying somebody who's interested in doing this, who you think you could train, and see what happens.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Great advice. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for the many words of wisdom. And Guy, thank you for all the inspiration you give entrepreneurs.

• 16:08Guy Raz?

  Thank you.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  And Kurt, thank you for the great role model that you've been to entrepreneurs as well. Thank you.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  You bet.

• 16:14Guy Raz?

  You are, Kurt. In fact, all the work that you've done in building a sustainable company and also building a community of employees who really benefit from what you've done and what you've been doing. So.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Well, thank you.

• 16:26Guy Raz?

  I echo that. Thank you. Thanks, Andy.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Thanks, Andy.

• 16:30Guy Raz?

  We're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

• 16:45Guy Raz?

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• 20:49Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Kurt Richardson. He's the founder of OtterBox and Blue Ocean. And we are taking your calls, and let's bring in our next caller.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  All right, I'm excited to talk.

• 21:03Guy Raz?

  Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Marissa Valenzuela. I'm calling from Tampa, Florida. And I am the founder and lead fairy godmother of Gilded Coach Teas, where we create enchanted teas inspired by fairy tales from all around the world.

• 21:22Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Welcome to the show, Marissa. So Gilded Coach Teas, you sell loose-leaf teas in bags?

• 21:30Speaker 03

  They're in like canisters. I have two sizes. So I have canisters, like a three-ounce size and a one-and-a-half ounce.

• 21:38Guy Raz?

  And these are cardboard canisters?

• 21:40Speaker 03

  The canisters, yes.

• 21:41Guy Raz?

  Okay, cool. And tell me, I love tea, I'm a big tea drinker. I've lately gotten into this really intense Chinese black tea that is...

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 21:51Guy Raz?

  Man, it gives me a big hit of caffeine in the morning. And because I switched from coffee, I gave up coffee at the beginning of this year. I love it, but tea, it's really my jam now. So what, tell me about your teas. Like if I was like, all right, Marissa, why should I buy your teas?

• 22:07Speaker 03

  Well, you should buy our teas if you are someone who happens to enjoy magic and nostalgia. So we have blends inspired by Cinderella. In fact, the first blend I ever came up with was called Once Upon a Time. And it is a hazelnut black tea with French vanilla creme as well. And it's hazelnut because in the original Grimm's fairy tale, there's no fairy godmother. There's a hazel tree that Cinderella sort of cries to and it grants her wishes. So I like to go back to the original fairy tale and base each blend off of that.

• 22:43Guy Raz?

  Wow, I'm looking at your website, and this makes sense now. I'm on the fairest of them all. I'm assuming this is from Snow White.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 22:51Guy Raz?

  You've got herbal tea with candied apple that you would steep. Oh, that's so cool, because she, of course, has the poisonous apple.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:00Guy Raz?

  So you are like a real fairy tale scholar.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. I haven't gotten a fairy tale scholar. That is, I'm gonna steal that. Thank you.

• 23:11Guy Raz?

  So you're blending these teas and selling them on your website. And tell me a little bit about, how long has the business been around? And yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  So we've been around since October 2020, and we've developed a couple blends, shelved a couple. We're in two stores at the moment locally.

• 23:31Guy Raz?

  And give me a sense of your sales. How are you doing roughly?

• 23:35Speaker 03

  So that kind of leads into my question.

• 23:39Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Our sales were doing really, really great for a while, where they were projected to go up and up and up, if you will. But I sort of took like a one-year hiatus when I had my first baby, personally. And ever since then, I felt that we've lost momentum. And I want to know what I can do to sort of regain that momentum and recapture those sales.

• 24:04Guy Raz?

  All right, regain momentum and recapture sales. And you feel like you're starting from scratch. Okay, Kurt Richardson will bring you on. Any thoughts, any advice on how to regain momentum?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Well, I guess right away, you've got to treat it like you're starting all over. Because you are, in some ways. But the nice thing is you've got product, and I love your story.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  I think story is huge.

• 24:27Guy Raz?

  Yep.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  You've got lots of opportunity with social media with this brand. I mean, this just reeks social media, good stuff. And I would really pour my attention into getting my story out. So people come to my website. And direct to consumer, I mean, this has it written all over it, and that's where I would go. You can play with some stores and stuff, but...

• 24:51Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Man, if you can go D to C, you're going to make so much more money for your efforts. I just, I love D to C.

• 24:58Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I agree. I love the story. I mean, all these teas are inspired by fairy tales. And then you start to see it when you look at the ingredients. The ingredients are awesome, and they sound delicious. I mean, looking at Little Sea Princess, obviously, and I should say, obviously, inspired by the Little Mermaid. It's got, I didn't even know what this is, Danish bilberry and sweet honeysuckle and a white tea blend. That sounds delicious.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Bilberry is like the Danish version of a blueberry.

• 25:25Guy Raz?

  Okay, and that's, of course, a Danish story, right?

• 25:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  And what's this dust?

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Oh, pixie dust. So it's our edible glitter that we call pixie dust. And we say you need a fairy's handful, and just the tiniest amount in your cup. And it makes everything sparkly and magical and enchanted. We used to put it in the tea itself and then like shake it up. So that way, when you scooped your tea out and steeped it, it was already covered for you. We've since stopped doing that because I don't own my commercial kitchen. And you know, people don't like it when they get glitter on their tools.

• 26:03Guy Raz?

  I think there is so much, I mean, and I'm going to tread carefully here, because I know that all kinds of kids love fairy tales. But I've been to Disney World and Disneyland, and I've got two boys. And I can tell you right now, they did not run to the princesses, even though that is the biggest, I think it's the biggest part of what Disney sells. Like I think it's just massive, right? So I can imagine birthday parties for girls, little girls. And it's just so many cool things. Here's what I would say, right? Because your question is, how do I jumpstart this? How do I regain the momentum? First of all, taking a year out, again, because you had a baby, is it awesome?

• 26:47Guy Raz?

  And I think that's just amazing, to give yourself that time with your kid.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 26:52Guy Raz?

  I would not put that kind of pressure on yourself, because that's exhausting. Maybe, I think the question is, like, what can I start to do consistently?

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 27:01Guy Raz?

  Each week, for three, for six months? The other thing is, I imagine, because you did have, you did reach, you know, sales that you were happy with, you probably still have the contacts of those people who bought your teas. So many businesses, and Kurt, you know this, so many businesses are focusing on customer acquisition, and costs are through the roof now. I mean, what used to be shooting fish in a barrel, you're now spending $80, $90, $100 more on customer acquisition costs. I don't think enough businesses focus on customer retention. That's really where, you know, a lot of times, that's where the sweet spot is, because that doesn't cost that much at all. You've already got the customers and the contacts.

• 27:44Guy Raz?

  I would really try and double down on identifying your best customers. Who ordered from you more than once? Are they, you know, have you been in touch with them? Can you offer them some incentive to start buying your tea again?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  One other thing I might have is maybe really focus on those people that Guy's talking about. Is it little girls with tea parties that you could sell a tea set with too?

• 28:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  You could sell a whole experience, your whole story. I mean, there's so many more things you could add to the tea that are up-selling could put you in a whole different spot. And you know, wow, my mom bought me this tea set. Well, the next little girl's going to want the same tea set. And teas, and maybe there's crackers or crumpets that can go with it too, right? I mean, have fun with this.

• 28:36Guy Raz?

  I imagine right now, you don't have a whole lot of cash to spend on social media advertising, but you can make, you can make social media posts.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 28:44Guy Raz?

  And who knows? Sometimes that, you know, something can really go viral without many dollars behind it. It can still happen, especially on TikTok. But I do think that, as Kurt said, that there's just so much potential for storytelling here, right? I mean, you're already telling stories in the tea. And have you, by the way, have you reached out to your previous customers?

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Yes, I do have a newsletter that I do a pretty good job, if I may say so myself, of keeping up with. And a lot of people, when they find us, are very intrigued by the story and the fairy tale aspect. So in that way, I do stay in touch with a lot of my core customers.

• 29:25Guy Raz?

  I would offer some kind of interesting incentive, like, hey, for, you know, our most loyal customers, we're experimenting. You know, if you order a tea, we'd love to send you a sample of some blends, and tell us what you think. I mean, I'm just sort of spitballing here, but I do think that... Or even, you know, a discount or something just to bring them, bring awareness back into their minds, right? To get you back on their radar.

• 29:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a great idea.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, and I've got a granddaughter and I don't know how many princess outfits she has. It's crazy. I think you got a chance here to sell a whole experience. It's just, you know, tea's part of it, you know, it's, it's maybe the outfits and the books. And I mean, there's just, there's a lot of meat here that's good, but you're gonna have to focus. Don't try to be everything to everybody. Find that little niche, maybe that princess niche.

• 30:18Guy Raz?

  Yep. Your core product is tea, but I think Kurt, you're on to something. I can, I mean, I would start to see if I see you, you offer weddings or wedding blends. But I mean, man, could you mount, could you, could you mount a whole tea party for a seven or eight or nine year old girl's birthday? I would think that there are plenty of parents in Tampa who would be willing to spend, you know, pretty decent money on a party like that.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  I, I agree. I agree. I do believe they are indeed out there. I just have to find them. So, thank you so much.

• 30:51Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Uh, the brand is called Gilded Coach Teas. Marissa Valenzuela, uh, thanks for calling in. Good luck.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. And before I go, Kurt, I just want to say thank you so much. I, you sparked my yearly re-listen and reread of the E-Myth. It's something every single year, I forget about it. Something sparks me to reread it and that would be listening to your episode. So, thank you for that. There's so many good tidbits in there.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  You bet. Thank you. Appreciate it.

• 31:19Guy Raz?

  Thank you, Marissa.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 31:22Guy Raz?

  We're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 34:16Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with OtterBox founder Kurt Richardson. Kurt, we have one more caller for today looking for some advice. Are you ready?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm ready.

• 34:29Guy Raz?

  Caller, welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Kurt Richardson, founder of OtterBox. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 34:35Speaker 04

  Hi, Guy, Kurt. I'm really excited to be here. Big fan of the show. Uh, my name is Vince Chudice. I'm calling in from Chatham, New Jersey. Um, my company, or my wife and my company, is called Everloop, and it is a sustainable baby gear company. Um, it's sustainable for two reasons. We make our products exclusively with recycled and regenerative materials, but also more importantly is that we buy our products back from our customers when they no longer need them for 20% cash back, so we can recycle it into new products. Our big thing is zero waste, nothing to landfill.

• 35:06Guy Raz?

  Wow. Okay, welcome to the show, Vince. So you make baby products. Tell me just, just a couple of products you make.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  We just launched this time last year. We launched with two products, a three-in-one highchair made from recycled HDP, um, given the plastic call-out, because I know Kurt knows plastics, and an organic bouncer chair. So something that you'd put your baby in, um, to lounge in. Yeah, so two products for now.

• 35:28Guy Raz?

  And, um, did you design these products yourself?

• 35:31Speaker 04

  No, I worked with, um, my, uh, my career before this was in the toy space, and I worked with some really stellar designers and engineers. I have a strong understanding of injection molding and manufacturing, but I'm not a designer and engineer by training. Um, so I worked with them to design these products using exclusively these materials.

• 35:49Guy Raz?

  And everything is, is recycled? All the plastic, all the materials you use are recycled?

• 35:54Speaker 04

  All the plastic is 100% curbside collected plastic, um, recycled plastic. We do use stainless steel, which we'll recycle when we get the product back. And when we use fabrics, for example, we use 100% organic cotton and organic wool. Um, and we do that so that we can actually compost the product when we're done with it. So it's a, it's a mix of, it's a mix of different ingredients.

• 36:15Guy Raz?

  So you were in the toy space for a while, and, and how did you come to this, this idea? I mean, baby products, uh, I think, interesting category. Uh, tell me about the decision to, to start this, this brand.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. So the first decade of my career was at a environmentally friendly toy company. I loved every day of it. I enjoyed Mondays as much as Fridays. Um, you know, we use recycled materials for those toys, but it really kind of dawned on me that, you know, if you went to recycle one of those products when you were done with it, it would go to landfill. And that's because recycling centers globally don't know what it is. They know what bottles are and cans are. Um, so that's where I kind of had this idea brewing, where it was like, what if we brought it back and recycled it ourselves? And that was kind of the, the jumping off point for the baby gear brand.

• 37:01Guy Raz?

  Wow. And tell me, you launched a year ago, and, and it's direct to consumer entirely?

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. So we, we launched a year ago with our two products. Um, you know, leveraging some contacts, a lot of contacts I've had. We are now live with Nordstrom, Pottery Barn Kids, uh, we're live on Target, we're live with Creighton Kids, Masonet, um, a lot of other third-party e-comm retailers, and then direct on our site. So, um, it's all direct to consumer. Uh, most of these products are drop ship, so we use their marketplace. Um, not too much gear is sold in store besides big box retailers, and things are, things are going well.

• 37:35Guy Raz?

  Tell me, how'd you do in your first year?

• 37:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. So our first, I mean, our first year, we only did like 18K in revenue, but this year we're on track to do 100K.

• 37:42Guy Raz?

  Amazing. Okay. Uh, before we dive into further, uh, what's your question for us?

• 37:46Speaker 04

  So my questioning is, is related to marketing. So most of our sales are baby registry-driven. And what that means is there's about a three to six month lag from discovery to purchase. And that makes knowing what marketing channel is working very challenging. Um, so my question is, is if you were in my shoes, would you place a lot of small bets in different channels like TikTok, Meta, or Pinterest, or others? Or would you pick a lane and go deep?

• 38:13Guy Raz?

  Interesting question. Okay, Kurt Richardson, I'd love to bring you in, say hello to Vince.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Hello, Vince. How are you?

• 38:19Speaker 04

  Hi, Kurt.

• 38:20Guy Raz?

  Thoughts, ideas, questions?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I get your question. Um, first of all, I'm a big, uh, I would shoot BBs until I hit something.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  And then when I hit it, I'd kick up to a 22 caliber, and when it really took off, I'd go 50 mag, 50 cal. You know, what I'm saying is, don't throw all your money down one hole at once. You, you've got a, you've got to fire a lot of bullets until you hit something significant, and then that's where you start to spend your money. Um, I'd be very careful just picking one channel that can, that, that, time is money. And if you spend all your time down one rat hole, um, and don't go down multiple ones until you find what you're looking for, it's gonna hurt you.

• 39:11Speaker 04

  That's, that's very refreshing to hear. Um, I've talked to many different folks about it and agencies that focus on specific channels and everyone's selling their, their channel as the place to be.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Careful with agencies.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yes. We don't, we use consultants for the most part. Um, my gut has said to do what you're suggesting, and that's pepper the bets out there. And, you know, take your time, be methodical.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  Until you start understanding.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  You know, and back, back in the day for Otter, we, we, we used a lot of, uh, different channels to get different people to write about our products. And there's a lot of free marketing out there if you look for it, if you find the right people to talk about your product. Let other people talk about it. It has more credibility than you anyway. So, I mean, when you're blowing your own horn, people just know you're blowing your horn. But if somebody else is blowing it, it's much better advertising.

• 40:04Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 40:04Guy Raz?

  Vince, I have a, a slightly different take, which, which is to say,

• 40:11Guy Raz?

  It depends in part on what you are prepared to spend, right? I mean, if you're talking about tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think there's a compelling case to make that you do make small experiments. But one of the mistakes that we have seen early-stage founders make often is that they will put $5,000 or $10,000 into multiple channels, and it doesn't always tell you much. And I think one of the reasons why is because oftentimes, especially at the early stage, founders don't spend as much time as they should really getting obsessed with who is actually buying your product.

• 40:54Guy Raz?

  I would hasten to guess that most people buying your product are not buying it because they're necessarily environmentally conscious. Probably some are, but I would think that most people like the product. And the other thing that I think is probably the most compelling thing about this is the buyback.

• 41:14Speaker 04

  100%.

• 41:14Guy Raz?

  Right?

• 41:17Guy Raz?

  I mean, I can't think of any, I mean, very few baby products where they're like, yeah, you buy it and enjoy it, and then we will give you 20% of what it costs. We'll buy it back when you're done. That's very significant. I mean, that's a big deal.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  You hit the nail on the head. It's, you know, I go to a lot of consumer shows and we sell our pitch. We talk about the ingredients and everyone says, oh, that's great. I love that. And then when we say the buyback, the eyes just light up. And they say, sign me up. Let's add it to registry.

• 41:47Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And I would say before you even put a dollar down, I would try and call, literally, I'll buy things online. And I use a pseudonym, but I'll get an email from the founder saying, hey, to my pseudonym, we'd love to hear what you liked about our product. Give me a call, literally. And I'm very impressed when I see that. I mean, at this stage, I think you could do some of that. I mean, just do a call instead of having people fill out forms and see if you can get, you know, 10, 15, 20 more people giving you reasons why they did that. And once you start to build a profile of who that person is, that really can help you sharpen your focus on where you want to put those dollars.

• 42:30Guy Raz?

  Because I would say, three channels, four channels? Great. Seven, 10, 15 channels? Not, I'm not sure unless, again, you've got huge amounts of money to spend. But I think knowing who those people are will help you figure out where to put those marketing dollars. Does that make sense?

• 42:48Speaker 04

  That makes a lot of sense. Just going direct to the source to see.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  And mind you, I wasn't saying, I wasn't saying go 10 places. I would really research and pick four to five.

• 43:01Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  And then see what lands, see what hits. And again, my philosophy early on was I'm not going to spend money on advertising unless I can measure it. Because if you can't measure it, you have no clue where that money's going.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  I'm in that camp as well, Kurt. And that's been the challenge is I like seeing the data and the flow through. And I'm having trouble seeing that, which is tough for an ops guy.

• 43:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  But Guy hit it. I mean, if you can get ahold of your customer who bought it, where'd you hear about it? Why do you like it? Why'd you buy it? Great questions.

• 43:32Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and I think that the story is so compelling. And it really, to me, even beyond the regenerative, I love the regenerative stuff. I love that. I live for that. But I'm not the typical consumer on that. It's the buyback. I think of all of the baby stuff we had with our kids and just getting rid of it. And, you know, you sell some of it, you find people who want some of it, you throw away some of it. I mean, I'm embarrassed to tell you, you know, what we threw away. And that buyback is just very meaningful. It's basically saying, we got you. You're never going to have to deal with like, what to do with this thing when you're done.

• 44:09Speaker 04

  Definitely. And it plays into the bigger vision, which is getting people locked into this circular ownership model, which is as soon as they use our high chair and send it back, you know, their child's probably ready for, you know, a walker or a rider, a bike of some sort or a scooter. So I'm glad to hear that it resonates with you because as a parent, like, it hit home when I landed on it. And especially because like, traditional donation channels won't take baby gear for liability reasons. So you have a lot of stuff that's gently used and no place to go.

• 44:41Guy Raz?

  I would really shout that from the rafters, even on your website. You know, I don't see that right at the front center. I would make that the core right now of what you are doing.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  One other slant I might have on this is maybe you look at the philanthropic side of this. Instead of, you know, you give this to, you have some programs you work with, you know, people who cannot afford this. So rather than recycling it, because it costs money to recycle that, right? It doesn't cost as much to get it into a program where now somebody else gets to use this thing that is, you're just cleaning it up and shipping it on and really helping somebody else. And that connects to, that could be part of your story in a big way.

• 45:24Speaker 04

  I love that. We've actually done some work with some hospitals. Again, not offering product, but steep discounts to like, get, you know, we are a young company and we are a bootstrap company. But it's a great way to build awareness. But honestly, I love that idea of offering the product that comes back to other folks that are in need.

• 45:42Guy Raz?

  Awesome. It's just a really, really cool idea. Vince Quodici, Everloop is the brand. Good luck. And yeah, keep us posted.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, keep at it.

• 45:55Guy Raz?

  Thank you. Kurt, thank you so much for coming back on the show and doing this. Before I let you go, I want to ask you a question that I've been asking everybody who does come back on, which is, you know, if you could go back to when you were first starting out, right? And give yourself some advice, what do you think might have been helpful for you to know that you didn't know then?

• 46:16Speaker 01

  I think for me to wrestle with the question, what do you want? What do I want? And it, many times, it doesn't have to do with the business. It has to do with the heart, not the head. And I think it's important that you discover that for yourself and let that be your guiding light going forward. Also, you know, I was really good at making things, but I wasn't really good at running things. So it's very important to get educated. There are different ways to do that. You go to college, but I'm not sure it's going to teach you that. There's a lot of great books out there. There's a lot of great mentors.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Nowadays, I mean, you can learn so much on YouTube and podcasts, I mean, like this. So educational. I would encourage people to dive into this type of media and learning because I learn that way from watching and listening, hearing other people's stories, learning from other people's mistakes and successes.

• 47:20Guy Raz?

  Yep, for sure. Well, Kurt, thanks so much for coming back onto the show. It was great having you.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  You bet. Thank you, Guy. It's fun, fun seeing you again.

• 47:29Guy Raz?

  You too.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  And it's great watching what you're doing. Thank you for doing that for the entrepreneurial community. It's so big. It's so important. You really mean the need.

• 47:38Guy Raz?

  Thanks for, and thanks for being part of it. That's Kurt Richardson, founder of OtterBox and Blue Ocean. And by the way, if you haven't heard Kurt's original How I Built This episode, go back and check it out, please. Great episode. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  This is a great story. So I remember being at CES and--

• 47:59Guy Raz?

  In Las Vegas.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  In Vegas. And Michael Cowan, who was the head guy for stuff at AT&T, came by and showed him the case. And he said, well, how much is it? I said, well, it retails for $49.95. He's like, you're crazy. $49.95? Who's going to buy a case? All the cases were like five bucks.

• 48:17Guy Raz?

  It's nuts.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. So he said, but we'll do a test. So they did a test and they were going to do a three-month test. Well, I think they did a three-day test because they all sold out.

• 48:29Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  They sold like crazy. I mean, it was like that UPS commercial, you know, where it's like,

• 48:34Speaker 01

  and we're going, oh, crap.

• 48:40Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with editing by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, J.C. Howard, Casey Herman, Elaine Coats, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This Lab.

• 49:11Guy Raz?

  One more mention for our presenting sponsor, Anthropic. Claude is built for people who like to keep pulling on the thread, the research, the planning, the questions, the follow-through, until the work starts to make sense. So try Claude for the next problem worth solving.