Advice Line with Jeni Britton of Jeni's Splendid Ice Creams (2025)

Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams founder Jeni Britton joins Guy on the Advice Line to answer questions from three early-stage entrepreneurs. Plus, how Jeni’s newest venture Floura is tackling one of America’s largest dietary needs—fiber. First, we meet Jesse in Washington, D. C., who’s wondering how to best focus marketing efforts for his frozen french fry company. Then Casey from Boston, who's questioning the pressure she's feeling to pursue outside capital for her frozen pierogi brand. And finally, Callie from Los Angeles asks about the pros and cons of contracting a PR firm to promote her purple sweet potato pet treats. Thank you to the founders of Jesse & Ben’s, Jaju Pierogi and Ubae.co for being a part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams’ founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/d65b7e32-c8a8-4902-86b4-82a7180b055a/embed as told by Jeni on the show in 2018. This episode was produced by Katherine Sypher with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch. You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ and on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  Before we get into the episode, thanks to our presenting sponsor, Anthropic. They make Claude, an AI built for the problems that take real thinking, research, strategy, planning, and making sense of a lot of moving pieces. Give it a try, for the next thing, you can't quite stop turning over in your head. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai/hibt. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question, not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job?

• 0:43Guy Raz?

  Anthropic got built the same way, a public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears, and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions.

• 1:28Guy Raz?

  Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt. We get support from US Bank, a question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions, gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever

• 2:11Guy Raz?

  card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems. But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned, money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus.

• 2:53Guy Raz?

  And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes, based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Hey, everyone. So this week, we're revisiting one of our favorite episodes from The Advice Line. It's the episode with Jenny Britton, the founder of Jenny's Splendid Ice Creams. And stick around to the very end of the episode, because we checked back in with our callers,

• 3:36Guy Raz?

  and they have some really awesome updates. This episode first ran in March of 2025, and I hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call, and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions

• 4:20Guy Raz?

  that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Jenny Britton. She's the founder of Jenny's Splendid Ice Creams. Jenny, it's great to have you back on the show.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Hey, Guy. It's so, so great to be back.

• 4:54Guy Raz?

  You were a guest on the show back in 2018. We did a live show in Columbus, Ohio. It was so fun. And by the way, guys, if you haven't heard that original episode, we will put a link in the episode description. You, of course, started Jenny's. Your first location was in a food hall, and then you opened your first scoop shop a few years later. And I think most people know your ice cream. Creamy, amazing, weirdly wonderful flavors like powdered jelly doughnut, and brambleberry crisp, and Texas sheet cake, and my current favorite, I have to say, brown butter brittle.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  That's my favorite.

• 5:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah. We have a pint and a half. My son eats a pint of your ice cream, like, almost daily. It's very, it's just really amazing, when they're growing, how much ice cream they eat.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I know that very well, too. My kids eat a lot of ice cream as well. We are an ice cream family, of course. But yes, that one's my favorite, too, and the one that I always, always, always have in my freezer.

• 5:51Guy Raz?

  It's so good. Today, your ice creams are sold, I think, in about 80, at least 80 scoop shops across the country.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 5:59Guy Raz?

  12,000 retail locations. You built an incredible business. Jenny, before we get to today's callers, I want to ask you a couple of questions about your story. I mean, when you were in college, right, you had this moment when you knew you wanted to make ice cream, right? Basically, for the rest of your life. And you dropped out of the Ohio State University to start what would become Jenny's, first called Scream Ice Cream.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. In 1996, I walked out of art class, literally.

• 6:26Guy Raz?

  I mean, yeah, you walked out. And so a lot of, you know, a lot of callers have asked this in the past, which is when, like, how do you know that it was the right thing to do at that time?

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I didn't question it. It wasn't something that I sat and thought, is this really right? Is it not right? I just knew that I couldn't do art anymore. And I had spent my entire life in art. My grandmother's an art teacher. My mother's an artist. And it just wasn't for me anymore. I just wanted to be making ice cream, and I wanted to be serving ice cream, and I wanted to light people up in that way. And I didn't know at all what I was doing. And I just thought it was just going to be, you know, you make ice cream, you serve it, people love it, and then, you know, you become Ben and Jerry's overnight.

• 7:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  And obviously, that's not true. You know, that was just the beginning.

• 7:08Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I think a lot of people assume that brands start in coastal cities, LA, New York, San Francisco. But you started this in Columbus and built a national brand, really on the sheer force of the quality of the product and the branding and the look of it. Tell me, why do you think Columbus turned out to be the perfect place for you to launch the business?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Columbus is a perfect place. And these smaller markets are really perfect for a lot of reasons, actually. I mean, I was in Columbus, and one of the reasons that I wanted to be an ice cream maker is because I drove by farms every day. You go 20 minutes outside of downtown, and you're driving by dairy farms. So I knew that we were a dairy state, because I saw it in front of me. So I thought, okay, great, it's awesome for ice cream. And we forget that a lot of innovation can come from the middle of the country, whether it's in food, especially in food, where we have ag states. But also, when you're in a smaller, small to mid-sized city, the city gets behind it in a different way. You know, you can, you can really try things and also fail a lot, and people still stick with you. And I have noticed that in big cities, everybody's trying new things.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Everybody's got something going on, and it's really hard to stand out.

• 8:21Guy Raz?

  And, of course, the cost of doing business is lower, just the startup costs are lower in a place like Columbus versus Brooklyn, New York.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  It would be impossible to do what we do at Jenny's. All of our money would have been in You know, rent and paying people and all the things that you have to do in Brooklyn that would be different from Columbus.

• 8:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  And here we can put it all in the ice cream. And that's just a huge difference.

• 8:43Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Jenny, before we get to our callers, you have a new product that you've launched. A completely, I think it's a completely separate company.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  It is.

• 8:50Guy Raz?

  Called Flora. And these are energy bars or bars, but they're like high in fiber, like 13, 14 grams of fiber per bar. Tell me about this new like business that you've launched.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, Flora is a fiber company. We actually make fiber or pull fiber from produce trimmings. So we are located actually inside of a 600,000 square foot produce processing company that makes cut produce for all your favorite grocers.

• 9:18Guy Raz?

  Like baby carrots or, you know, stuff like that?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Mots apples, for instance.

• 9:23Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  And so we can take the apple cores and then make them into a paste, which becomes the base of our bars. And so we also work with watermelon rinds. We actually ferment the watermelon rinds a little bit, which opens up cellulose and pectin and prebiotic fiber there. We work with honeydew, cantaloupe rinds, mango skins. These are really high in fiber and then 95% of Americans are deficient in fiber and it's the cause of many chronic illnesses across America. So I don't know, you know, people are like, how do you go from ice cream to fiber? And to me, it's just the same thing. It's about making people feel better. I learned after I was able to kind of step back a little bit from Jenny's over the last five years, how important fiber is and how

• 9:58Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  absent it is from our food system. And we really need this to have a healthy microbiome. So yeah, so Flora exists to get people fiber every day.

• 10:08Guy Raz?

  That's so cool. Congrats on that. It's really true. I mean, I eat so many vegetables and I still add psyllium husk to my morning smoothie. I eat chia seed pudding every day. We don't eat enough fiber.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  And you have to work to do it. You have to actually try.

• 10:25Guy Raz?

  It's really hard.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  And also, you know, of course, there's this sustainability aspect because all of these ingredients were going into the landfill, but they are really good for you and you should be eating them.

• 10:34Guy Raz?

  Yep, for sure. Well, all right, congrats on that. I can't wait to try them.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Thank you. Back at the beginning.

• 10:39Guy Raz?

  Back at the beginning. I love it. Let's bring in our first caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with me and Jenny Britton. Welcome, please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Hey, Guy. Hey, Jenny. My name is Jesse Koenig. I'm calling in from Washington DC. I'm one of the co-founders of Jesse and Ben's. And what makes our fries special is that we don't use seed oils or any weird ingredients. It's just non-GMO potatoes, healthy fats like grass-fed beef tallow or avocado oil and salts and seasonings. That's it. Just real ingredients you can pronounce and none of the bad stuff.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 11:16Guy Raz?

  I love it. Welcome to the show, Jesse. Thanks for calling in. So these are, you, these are sold frozen in a bag like that you would get at the grocery store in the freezer aisle?

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yep, they are frozen french fries you'd find right in the freezer aisle next to some of the big red bags you probably recognize from, from a long time to been there.

• 11:32Guy Raz?

  And then you take them home and you just put them on a baking sheet and you bake them?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Right in the air fryer. Air fryer is great. People love their air fryers. I like to bake them in the oven, too. They're great in the oven as well. It's kind of like a twice fried Belgian style fry you'd get at a restaurant and we do the first fry and you're basically doing that finished cooking at home, either in the air fryer or in the oven.

• 11:52Guy Raz?

  I got it. Cool. Tell me a little bit about how you started the business.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Our background is actually in restaurants and

• 11:58Guy Raz?

  You say our, you've got a, you've got a partner. That's, that would be Ben.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  That would be Ben, exactly.

• 12:02Guy Raz?

  I guess the Ben and Jesse and Ben's.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Yes, we're the guys behind the fries. I'm one half of the equation being Jesse.

• 12:07Guy Raz?

  All right.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Ben and I, we met in college. We were friends. We decided this brilliant idea that we were going to get into the food industry with no experience, jumped right into it in DC in 2014 with food trucks and farmers markets and kind of running around the city.

• 12:22Guy Raz?

  What were you selling? What kind of food?

• 12:23Speaker 02

  It actually started out with gourmet, grass-fed beef spiral cut hot dogs, of all things. It was a very niche, funky thing. Hand-cut fries were a huge part of the menu from day one. And we eventually pivoted the concept a little bit more into the burger space and building a better fast food concept. We've had our best year ever in 2019. We signed our first lease, getting ready to open up in 2020. And it was not the best time, as you might imagine, to be opening your first restaurant.

• 12:48Guy Raz?

  Yes.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Yes. So we were building our restaurant in March, getting ready to open in May. And that actually led us to this kind of idea for french fries because we were trying to solve a problem at our restaurant. We were hand-cutting fries for our food trucks and farmers markets and now this new restaurant. And we thought, we need to survive. We don't know what we're going to do. What if we could use a frozen french fry? But since it's always been, you know, a core part of our business from the earliest days, we couldn't sacrifice the quality of our fries.

• 13:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  And we decided to make our own frozen french fries because the only one we could find that really worked. And then we had these frozen fries and we walked the grocery store aisles and we just saw that sea of sameness we'd learned about from being longtime listeners of How I Built This.

• 13:28Guy Raz?

  Awesome.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  And realized there was a

• 13:29Guy Raz?

  I love it.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  A huge opportunity to just do something better and realized there was a real problem that needed solving.

• 13:34Guy Raz?

  Amazing. All right. Just to clarify though, these are sold in stores, not direct to consumer? Because it's kind of hard, I'm assuming, to ship these, right?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've had people all over the country trying to get us to ship french fries, which we've decided not to do for the time being.

• 13:49Guy Raz?

  Dry ice, it's hard. So where are they sold? How many shops or grocery stores are you in right now?

• 13:54Speaker 02

  So we just launched into retail in June of last year. So June 2024. And, you know, by kind of end of the year, early 2025, we're in about 400 grocery stores. And we're actually launching nationally with Sprouts Farmers Market soon. So we've got a lot going on this year and we're just trying to figure out one step at a time of what to do next.

• 14:13Guy Raz?

  All right. What's your question for us today?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Yes, my question's related to just how we should focus our marketing efforts. I know we're a, you know, small business. We don't have the budgets of the big guys. And we're getting ready for this nationwide launch in Sprouts. And we're trying to think about, you know, as we get into these new places, how should we be allocating our resources and our time and our budget? On one hand, it seems like there's a good case to be made to go and find the people that are already removing ultra-processed foods and seed oils from their diet because they kind of get it. They can be those early brand evangelists. On the other hand, it kind of seems like it could make sense to go find people who are buying lots of fries and don't even know about this problem. And if we can educate them and get them to know, hey, these fries not only taste better, but they might be better for you and your family, too.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  So we're just trying to figure out how we should, you know, really focus our effort when it comes to marketing as we're rolling into new places.

• 15:03Guy Raz?

  All right, we'll get to your question in a moment. I want to bring Jenny in. Jenny, you may have some answers to this question, but you may have questions of your own before we get to it.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Hi, Jesse.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Congratulations on your business.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  How cool. It's amazing. I feel like there's like a problem with like french fries right now. You guys identified it inside your company where it's like you can't actually buy like decent french fries, but making them is actually really hard, too. And if you're feeling it, I think the consumer is feeling it as well. I would love to know, where are you manufacturing? How are you manufacturing these?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  So we make all of our own french fries ourselves. We actually just opened a brand new 6,000 square foot facility in Rockville, Maryland. Because we are doing grass-fed beef tallow and avocado oil, and we think we have a very true-to-form process for these hand-cut, you know, Belgian-style fries, we don't really think there is an option elsewhere to do co-manufacturing. We kind of like controlling that part of the process. So we do it all. That's actually kind of what Ben's specialty is.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  And what are your, I mean, your established businesses, are people just sort of super excited about the fries? You know, I mean, is that something that, I mean, it sounds like it, but in addition to your burgers and the dogs and everything?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, at the restaurant level, I think for us, we were able to execute on making a fry that tastes as good as any french fry you ever had. But the sort of magic behind the scenes for us as operators is that we just open up a bag of our Jesse and Ben's fries, drop them into the fryer, and we've got a great french fry right there. And we actually do sell fries to other restaurants. It's kind of a sneaky wholesale business that we have that helps us grow our business and run our manufacturing plant profitably. Hopefully that's the idea at least. Easier said than done.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 16:44Guy Raz?

  It's really interesting. Jesse, can you give me a sense of what your, what your sales are right now with the fries? Are you guys, have you broken through $200,000 in sales?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so in our first 12 months in business, we've done into seven figures in sales.

• 16:56Guy Raz?

  Great.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  So it's been growing pretty quick.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 16:59Guy Raz?

  Well, let me, let me try to take a crack at your question because I think there's a parallel with what Jenny's done. And you mentioned this is an idea of like a higher quality version of something that you were used to, right? There's a lot of awareness on social media about, about seed oils and people are getting sort of weirded out about, about using them. And there's still some disputes about whether that, that's, you know, accurate or not. But I think that most of the people that you want to appeal to aren't really going to care about that as much yet. I still think it's new. I think most of the people are just going to like your product because it's delicious. It's a higher quality product and you can taste it. What, do you, do you think there's something to that, Jenny? Or do you disagree?

• 17:41Speaker 01

  I really do. If you go super deep on the seed oil thing, that science has not reached consensus yet. So it can be fad-like right now. And so you don't want to just be known for that. People who follow that will find you. They'll see tallow, they'll see avocado oil and they'll find you. But I will say, there is another component or an element that you, that, that, to think about, which is, you know, you're not just moving people from one fry company to another. In Jenny's, it was the same way because your customer, when you're in grocery, is not their customer, it's the buyer. And what the buyer wants to see is, yeah, sure, you can split some votes, that's okay. Are you bringing new people to the category? And so the new people that you're bringing, sure, it's some of the seed oil people, it's some of the health conscious people. It's also just people who love fries, who just don't think you can get good fries

• 18:26Speaker 01

  in the grocery store and you can't make them at home. And you have a story that can back that up. And that's going to bring new people into the category. And I think the buyers are going to really want to have you on the shelf.

• 18:38Guy Raz?

  What are you guys doing for sampling? I mean, do you have air fryers set up in some of these grocery stores and just handing out a hot french fry while you're shopping for groceries? I mean, my God.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  We've done it a couple of times. We actually just were jokingly serious, but joking about this idea of like, what if we just got a giant food truck and drove it down the East Coast and had a french fry tour bus and just did cool activations? But I think tasting definitely is believing. We've had a lot of success just finding these really influential people online and on social media, seeding out the product, having them give honest reviews and giving their experience. And that's been really effective. But I think you're right. When you put an air fryer out and you give somebody a couple of french fries in the grocery store, it's very hard to keep them on the shelf. We're selling out stores that way, definitely.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you go right to your customer in the grocery store. I mean, it's a really great way. Sir Kensington's actually did a really cool thing. You should partner with them. They sent a truck out and they did french fries, but it was to sell their condiments. And they had this cute like container and I happened to catch it at my Whole Foods and they had their mayo and their ketchup. And so you would go up and you would get that. And it's like, I've been a huge fan of Sir Kensington since.

• 19:45Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, you're like, as Jenny said, like, when people would ask her to describe the flavor, she would say, we packed more, as much chocolate into this pint as we could possibly get. When you have people, trained people who are sampling Jesse and Ben's at Sprouts or wherever it is, then they can say, and it's made with avocado oil or beef tallow. And, you know, whatever the pitch is, I mean, here you go. It's going to change your mind about oven fries and it's available in the freezer section just around the corner.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  I love that. That's a pretty good pitch too, Guy. We have to hire you to do some samples.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  I love selling other people's products for them. I think it's like, it's so great. And in fact, it's a good thing to do to be, to listen to how other people talk about your products because you'll talk about it one way, but listen to what other people are saying. And then also, when you're thinking about your pitch, think to your customers, think about what do I want them to say to other people? And talk to them the exact way because what you say, they often sort of say in your words to somebody else. And that word of mouth is going to be everything.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  I think that's great advice. I really appreciate the help.

• 20:45Guy Raz?

  Jesse Koenig, the brand is called Jesse and Ben's. Thanks for calling in. Good luck, Ben.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Thanks so much. We really appreciate you guys.

• 20:51Guy Raz?

  Great having you.

• 20:54Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I love french fries. And Jenny, you know, french fries and a great steak for me is like, one of the greatest moments ever.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Oh, same. I'm really excited about this tallow and sea salt, though. And I agree, like, I know a lot of people are talking about tallow, but, you know, like, we're just going back to like some first principles of like, how do you make great french fries? I know I'm in the Midwest, so I'm hoping that my stores carry them.

• 21:20Guy Raz?

  Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

• 21:39Guy Raz?

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• 24:47Guy Raz?

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• 25:32Guy Raz?

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• 25:47Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Jenny's Splendid Ice Creams founder, Jenny Britton. Jenny, why don't we, let's take another call.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:58Guy Raz?

  Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Jenny Britton. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 26:04Speaker 03

  Hello, nice to meet you both. My name's Casey White and I'm calling from Boston, Massachusetts. And I'm the co-founder of Jaju Pierogi. And we specialize in high-quality Polish dumplings. We're producing high-quality Polish dumplings at scale using our grandfather's recipes to grocery stores throughout the country.

• 26:24Guy Raz?

  Amazing. Well, thanks for calling in, Casey. And so pierogis, dumplings, these are, I think most people know they are stuffed with potatoes and cheese and I think you can get in with meat.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  You can put anything you want inside pasta dough, right? So we make a bunch of different flavors from potato and cheese, kielbasa, which is a pork sausage, and red bell pepper, sweet potato, caramelized onion, jalapeno cheddar, we name it, we can put it inside.

• 26:53Guy Raz?

  So this sold frozen in bags in the grocery store and like you just heat it up in the oven?

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Yep. So we boil them and freeze them. So you can air fry them, you can bake them. My favorite is sauteing them with some butter oil for about eight to 10 minutes on the stove. You could even microwave them if you wanted to. So just reheating them.

• 27:13Guy Raz?

  And tell me how you started the business. Tell me the story behind it.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, so my sister and I grew up on our grandfather's pierogi. So Jaju is our brand name and that's the phonetic spelling of grandfather in Polish. So we grew up on his pierogi and always had them like in the freezer, like our Kraft mac and cheese. Like that was our snack, our go-to thing. All of our friends would ask, hey, where'd you get those? Like, I can't find handmade dumplings anywhere. And we were like, really? Because we always had them. So we just assumed that.

• 27:44Guy Raz?

  Everybody had them.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we actually drove back to our grandfather's store and found his handwritten recipes in the back of the store and just started tinkering on our kitchen table and kind of like that small business story, right? Started going to pop-ups, farmers markets. We started doing this around the time breweries were like really hot and new. So pierogi and beer is like the perfect combination. So we would hop around and do that and quickly realized that, yeah, people could not find pierogi anywhere. People were like driving from neighboring states to come to our events. It was crazy, but it was awesome. So we kept going with it once we we saw that demand.

• 28:28Guy Raz?

  Wow, that's super cool. All right. So you're not sold direct to consumer or you are?

• 28:32Speaker 03

  We do sell direct to consumer on our website. We don't do, it's not a large part of our business because as you said before, you know, frozen is pretty expensive.

• 28:40Guy Raz?

  It's challenging, yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Yep, not easy to do, but we do offer it. And but most of our business is to grocery. So now we're in about 2,700 stores throughout the country. Whole Foods, Sprouts, a lot of stores in the natural channel. And then we still do, we do have a big event part of our business that we still operate mostly in the summer months, like music festivals and stuff like that.

• 29:06Guy Raz?

  Right. And and give us a sense of your your sales right now.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  So last year, we finished at 2.5 million.

• 29:13Guy Raz?

  That's great.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  This year, we should do almost four because we're actually getting into Costco, which is exciting.

• 29:19Guy Raz?

  Oh, wow. All right. So so before we dive in with more questions, what's your question for us?

• 29:23Speaker 03

  So my question is, how does a company sustainably grow in the CPG industry without raising a ton of capital? Or is raising a ton of capital just part of the equation?

• 29:36Guy Raz?

  All right, big question. And Jenny, I know you've got a lot of thoughts on that. Jenny, questions for Casey?

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Hey, Casey. First of all, congratulations. What an accomplishment. I mean, to have 2,700 plus stores is, I mean, I know from my experience at Jenny's, this is a slog that is not easy to do. And I just applaud you.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  I just, I guess, when I think of bringing capital, I think the first thing I think of is that entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs for a reason. And that's because we like to do things our way and differently. And we like to explore and discover and all of that. And when you bring in outside capital, you lose all of that. And so, you know, are who's on your team? How many people do you have? Are you ready to sort of like let go of that kind of control?

• 30:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's the hard part, right? Because it's like, we're a very small lean team. So we've been very methodical in our growth. Like, we've been around for nine years. And so a lot of people, right, they say, oh, like, nine years, like, maybe you should be in 10,000 stores or whatever. And we say, like, well, we've just methodically grown because we didn't want to take, you know, outside investment and stuff like that. And so it's kind of just like that point, like, okay, if we want to get into the club stores, the big, you know, the bigger guys, like, we need some upfront money to do packaging, like, just all of the logistics and all of that piece of it. And so that's what I struggle with. Because it's like, right, I don't want to give away control. I want to be able to

• 31:00Speaker 03

  still make the big decisions, but also like, where do I get the money from to do so?

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that's, that's always that sort of catch 22 or whatever, you know, where you're trying to to grow and and you need the money to grow. Have you looked into like SBA and like the sort of SBA and bank loans? Because I think, you know, the thing is, we don't really ever talk about that. And it can be such an incredible resource, especially, you know, the first answer is, you're doing it. This is how you do it. This is actually how you raise a company in the best way, because you have control and you're growing and you're doing it. And that's another question, too, for you is like, what would you do with the money? I mean, it's package, if it's just packaging and getting into a store, you might be able to get a loan for that.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Have you looked into bank loans? And is that something that you would consider versus bringing in a partner?

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, open to all options. We have taken some bank loans, the SBA. COVID was a great time to get federal money. So that really helped us. So there's definitely that avenue. It's just funny, like, being in the industry, the CPG industry, I don't know if it's because you're just surrounded by people, right, who are always like, I raised X, and I raised this, and this round series, A, B, C, D, E. Like, it's like, is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Right? But I agree with you. It's like, fine, you can get creative with how you need to front load anything, right? If it's just packaging, like, in this case, most of it is, right? It's just accomplishing the execution of a new store, then why

• 32:32Speaker 03

  give, you know, 25% of your business away to someone who is never going to care as much as I do?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're going to have a lot of opinions on how you do things.

• 32:41Guy Raz?

  And I mean, look, and to be frank, it is a, and we've talked about this on the advice line before, it happens to be a more challenging environment to raise money, especially in food and CPG businesses now. You know, what I'm hearing from investors right now in the food space is they're waiting, they're really looking for brands to hit 50, really $100 million in sales. You know, a couple of years ago, it was 20. If a brand hit $20 million in sales, it was a target for acquisition, you know. That being said, I mean, you have some friends and family who have invested in the business, right?

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Right. Yep, they have.

• 33:21Guy Raz?

  And so, I mean, is there talk or thought about maybe going back to them? And if that's something that you need, is that an option?

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's also, that's part of my plan of attack, right? It's like, when we did that round, you, I learned a lot about myself and my connections, right? Like, people want to help you, whether they're giving you money or not, they want to help you and they give you the advice that kind of leads you to the next person that might, you know, write that check, who believes in your company, has been seeing us grow it for years, right? So that's kind of my first plan of attack. It's like, okay, look at my network, the people that I trust and have believed in this product, tap them first. Because I was pleasantly surprised the first time. So I probably will be pleasantly surprised the second time I do this.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Well, just to get to this other, this other point that you're making, which is like, it does feel like, and I felt like this at Jenny's too, it does feel like, even now, like, like, your success as an entrepreneur is not whether you're actually selling or creating value for your customers. It's about whether you've gotten what round of funding you're in. And I'm so fundamentally against that. I mean, I think that it has to be, as entrepreneurs, it has to be about our customers, really creating value for people. And, and honestly, I think the best way to do it is this, I talk about this at Jenny's all the time, but like, start small and build, just keep building. Jenny's took on partners in 2015, but that was, we started in 2002.

• 34:46Guy Raz?

  2002, yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Another business from 1996. You know, I was learning that whole time. I built my brand so that when we brought in a private equity firm, who we're still with and we love, I mean, we're very lucky on that front. But when we brought them in, the brand was established enough that I still had power, you know, you know, to put it frankly. Do you have a board of advisors or a board of some people that you you lean on?

• 35:11Speaker 03

  We do. We have a few. We haven't fully built out a board, which I think we need to do.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  I have found that very helpful. I thought I thought that was helpful at Jenny's. When we brought in the private equity firm in 2016, actually, we organized a board. And that just made us kind of prepare for, you know, we had to sort of tell everybody what we were doing every month. We had to get prepared for that meeting. We had to, you know, but it also helped us just organize together as a team. They were so helpful to us. So I have a new company now, Flora, and we've already formed a board. And we went out and found people who are real experts there. And I think there are a lot of people who would want to help you because you're already out proving it.

• 35:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  And then also, when you get to that point, if you do a little later, want to go for for funding, you've already got your board established. So that gives you a little extra leverage.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:57Guy Raz?

  I think that's, I think that's great advice. Casey White, the brand is called Jodhu Pierogi. Good luck.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 36:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, Jenny, do you know, obviously, it's a, like, it's a different time environment to raise outside capital in food, right, in the food business. But it was important, right? I mean, it really helped you kind of super scale your business.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we looked for partners, and in doing this at Flora, too, we look for partners who could be, who could add more value to the company, who could really help us. I mean, we were just a scrappy team. And when they, when they came in, we sort of formed an executive team of professionals who understood how to do it. And that was a game changer, because there are methods that we just, you just have to know, you have to learn.

• 36:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah. What are you hearing, I mean, if anything, about fundraising, especially for food brands right now?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny you should ask, because I'm literally in the middle of it. I've been doing this for the last, you know, I've been building this company for two years, really scrappy, and we've gotten some angel investors for early stage, just to get us to kind of figure out what we're doing. And now we're kind of going after the bigger funding. But we are finding, yes, of course, it's very tight, very, very tight. And I think you have to have a massive opportunity where I'm hearing people say that, you know, they're looking for companies who could become a billion dollar company.

• 37:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  If you think about food, that's massive. You know, I mean, that's just, that's just global scale, almost. They're throwing around that B word a lot.

• 37:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Stay with us, because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line, right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 40:24Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Jenny Britton, founder of Jenny's Splendid Ice Creams. So Jenny, let's get back into it and take another call.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Okay, sure. Let's go.

• 40:37Guy Raz?

  Hello, welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Jenny Britton. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Hi, Guy. Hi, Jenny. My name is Callie Saher. I'm calling in from Los Angeles, California. I'm the founder of Ube.co, and we make organic purple sweet potato pet treats tailored to sensitive stomach and skin pets.

• 40:58Guy Raz?

  So purple sweet potato, tell me the connection between purple sweet potatoes and like dog treats for sensitive stomachs.

• 41:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, for sure. They're made of organic purple sweet potatoes as our main ingredient. The term for it is ube.

• 41:13Guy Raz?

  ube, yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, a lot of Filipino community loves that as a really high-fiber ingredient in a lot of food and desserts. So I was looking at just in general in the market, there's not a lot of treats that's tailored to sensitive stomach pets. And I have a dog that has a very sensitive stomach. He is a Cavapu, and he's just from when he was young, it was really hard to find high-fiber treats for him. So I was cooking a lot of sweet potatoes, a lot of pumpkin, things like that for him. And then I found purple sweet potatoes.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  And then I was doing a lot of research, because my background is in science, and I found that there's a lot of antioxidants and vitamins and minerals that are really good for their health in purple sweet potatoes. So that's how it started.

• 42:11Guy Raz?

  Wow. And tell me where you're selling them. Are they, is it direct to consumer through your website right now?

• 42:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, mainly direct to consumers. We have, we're in 10 local stores around LA and two in Hawaii. Yeah.

• 42:26Guy Raz?

  Cool. I mean, give me a sense a little bit about your sales. Have you guys broken $25,000, $50,000 in sales yet?

• 42:33Speaker 04

  We've broken $50,000 in sales, but not to 100K yet.

• 42:37Guy Raz?

  Right. Okay, cool. And what's your question for us today?

• 42:40Speaker 04

  So my question is, right now, currently, we have only relied on organic growth, achieving about like 30% returning customer rate online. But we're facing like a really big challenge in reaching new customers. And I think to scale the business effectively, I think it's time to like partner with a PR firm for marketing to allow me to focus on product development. So how can I find a reputable PR firm to help promote Ube.co and expand our reach?

• 43:12Guy Raz?

  All right. Jenny, I want to bring you in. Dog treats, sensitive stomachs, makes a lot of sense. Sweet potatoes. Let's go. Let's figure this out.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Amazing. Callie, congrats on your business. It's so cool. I mean, I'm always floored. I have two animals, and I adore them. And I always just like, I'm really tuned into this idea that people spend so much money on their pets. And, you know, we need to like care for our pets. We do. We care for them like they're our children.

• 43:39Guy Raz?

  We do.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  I love your background in science, and I think this can really carry you. And I'm just curious, as a scientist, what was your, how does that specifically help you wade through the research? Because when you get a PR firm, I think what they're going to do is figure out what your message is. And so figuring out like, okay, let's say you're a scientist, you looked through all the research, you created this, you know, this idea based on what you know, and now you're sharing it with other people. And so have you thought about like how to use your experience in a way that, to communicate that with others? And I think that would be like what a PR firm might help you do, too.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. I've thought a lot about this, actually. I was planning to do like a fun ingredient list for each product that I launch with the scientific terms of the ingredients in it. But also, there's like a little bit of hesitant in the sense that, oh, would people think that it's like more like medicinal or like, you know, is it chemical? You know, the words kind of sound like scary. So I try to use just like simpler terms, antioxidants, high in vitamins and fiber, things like that. But like my message right now is not coming out as clear as I want it to be.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's so much a part of what we tackle as entrepreneurs, especially in the beginning, when it's just us doing everything. Getting your communications, what you're saying, right? Because you're right, even though it matters that the science is accurate and that it's there, what are you actually communicating to the customer that activates your customer? And you learn that by selling, by selling to people and listening to feedback with your audience. What's resonating? What are people really, I mean, yes, the product works. We hope, yes, it works. But why? And what is the thing that you can then use? Because then that becomes your communication strategy, which then leads into like when you go and try to get on The Today Show.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think from last year, we did a lot of farmer's market and like sell directly to customers. And we found that one of the things they're most like interested about is just the ube itself. We have a slogan called ube for my bay. And everyone's like, oh, I love ube, so my dogs must love ube, too. And it turns out they do. So I think that's a good way to attract people. But I think what kept the people coming back is the health benefits, the fiber, the vitamin, the antioxidants. You can see, you can see the improvement in their gut health by feeding them the treats.

• 46:07Guy Raz?

  And what about, I mean, I know you're small and you're probably scrappy, but I mean, have you tried putting, playing around with social media ads?

• 46:18Speaker 04

  Yes. I've done it, just me and my husband, learning from like YouTube and everything, and just launched the ads. And it didn't turn out so well. Like pretty much we broke even on what we spent.

• 46:31Guy Raz?

  Okay. Great. Customer acquisition is getting harder and harder on social media, but I will just say this.

• 46:38Guy Raz?

  We have an episode of the show on Misfits Market, which sells like food that would otherwise get thrown away, you know, an apple with a blemish or something. And what they did, and again, this is in 2018, so it was a slightly different environment, but still effective today, I think. Instead of focusing on, hey, you know, this is still edible, or we sell food for 30% less. They would literally have like a weird freakish looking carrot, right, a photo of it. And it would just say, this carrot needs a home. That was the ad. And people would click on it because it was so weird. You have a product that's unusual. You're using purple sweet potatoes. I know them, right? But if you go to, you can have them at Trader Joe's, but a lot of people would be like, a purple sweet potato? What is that? Right?

• 47:22Guy Raz?

  And so because you've got this sort of, literally, like what Seth Godin would call a purple cow product, right, it's so, it's unusual. It stands out. I feel like that could be really just an interesting thing to try.

• 47:36Speaker 04

  Right, right. I think, I think we just need a lot of guidance in, in marketing and PR right now. Because I've tried a few things and I'm, I honestly am not good at social media. And I have hired a part-time person to help me with TikTok. And it's not working as well as I want it to. Because obviously, people don't care as much as I do. So, and I've been reached out by so many PR firms in Los Angeles, obviously, that like, they could help. They could help pitch. They could help get us into stores. They could help. They promised so many, it's not like a promise, but they're trying to sell their PR firms, obviously. But it's just hard to find who I can trust.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  I find that PR firms can be really awesome. But you have to have somebody, you have to have somebody at that firm who is your champion.

• 48:28Guy Raz?

  Yes.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Who adores you, who believes in you, who wants to push it forward. Otherwise, it falls flat and you just, you kind of go nowhere and it's very expensive. You might be better suited to spend that money on somebody who can work for you in multiple places, who could have some contacts with media or know how to speak to them. Might be able to also help you with social media or even do that. But who can really organize this communication? Just somebody who's like saying, this is our message out there and where are we going to put it? Who are we going to tell this to? Who can just kind of come in and help organize all that? And then that is their only job. And it wouldn't even, doesn't even have to be full-time yet, you know?

• 49:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I think that's really good advice. PR firms are tricky, right? I mean, if you find, it's that perfect fit. And Jenny's right. I mean, they have to love the product. And if you can find somebody, I mean, look, if you find a firm that has made a pitch and you say to them, look, my budget is, you know, $10,000 or $5,000, like, this is what we can pay. So show us what you can do with that. I mean, there's an argument to be made that you could, if you're willing to take that kind of risk with that amount of money, it might be worth the risk.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:42Guy Raz?

  You say, you know, I don't know social media well. And I think most people feel that way. We're like, I don't know how to do it. But the reality is, most people who do know how to do it, they just figured it out by doing it.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  I love the idea of really going into social media. I know that it's, it's all very scary.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  But Guy is right, you learn by doing it. And also just remember that like, people like authenticity. And especially now, when it doesn't seem like anything is authentic. And you're such an authentic person, I can tell. You know, I mean, obviously. And people like that realness and just saying, just going out and saying, try to keep it under 30 seconds or even under 15. Just try to say like, this is why I did this. This is why it's good for your, for your puppy. Just show the behind the scenes and just start doing it. And then part of social media too, a big part of it, is just talking to everybody else. So going on every other, anybody who's talking about dogs or pets, being on their feed, talking to them.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Right. I was doing that a lot last year. That's why I started hiring another person to help me with like the comments, the likes, the messaging, all that, because it was taking a lot of my time. I'm still a full-time scientist at UCLA. And so this is like a part-time, passion business, you know, side thing that I hope, hope that it will turn into a full-time one day. But we depend a lot on brand ambassadors. Like, we use an app that, like, you know, search for brand ambassadors and they get like a percentage of the sales. So that has been really helpful. They make really good contents. But I do think the messaging needs to be a little more clear.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  I just want to say, like, when you said, I'm a full-time scientist at UCLA, like, I want to hear that. I'm a full-time scientist at UCLA. I started a dog food company because I needed something to feed my dog.

• 51:26Guy Raz?

  Totally.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  You know, and I decided to use Ube because it's purple, you need color, you need vibrancy, you need fiber, or dogs, you know, we all do. I love that so much, just that message over and over and over and over again.

• 51:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  People invest in you, even consumers and customers. Like, they want to know that like, oh, this came from somebody who really cares and really knows what they're doing.

• 51:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:47Guy Raz?

  Totally, yeah, 100% agree. The brand is called ube.co. Callie, thanks so much.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 51:53Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 51:54Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much for calling in and good luck. Jenny, I've already asked you about luck or skill on the show many years ago. But I have a different question for you, which is, if you were able to go back, you know, even in, not, not just at the beginning, but like 2005, 2010, you know, when you were still really scrappy business, you weren't this national brand yet. What, what advice now, you know, now that you know what you know here, at this point in your, in your life and career, do you think might have been helpful for you to have known then?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Oh, this is, I mean, this is what I say when, if people say, what, what would you have done differently?

• 52:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  And there are a lot of things I would have done differently, but it's all about who. In 20, in 2005, 2006, 2007, what I needed on my team were, I needed a coach. I needed to understand how founders carry power in companies as we were beginning to grow. There are leadership things that you can learn pretty quickly, especially if you have somebody on your side who can help you. A business advisor, that was so important to me, especially as we started to grow and to like, bring on people from the outside. And I needed to learn how to speak that language. I needed somebody on my side, outside of the company. And then I would just say, a great attorney. As a founder, you know, you have your, your company attorney or whatever, but you do need to have kind of your own really great attorney, just to have somebody to ask questions.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  There's so much. And if you're a leader in your company, you really need to have an, an understanding of law. So, so those people I would have had definitely on my side. Now, going back a little earlier than that, I think we get to like where Callie is. And I would have, I would also say communications. That was something that I spent a lot of time trying to figure out. And it would have been really, really cool to have somebody who could just, could come and say, here, here's what you're doing really well. This is what people are resonating with. Because you might, whatever you think is probably not the same as what's going on over the counter. So, so having that communications person to just help me know what I should be saying every single day.

• 53:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah, that's great advice. That's Jenny Britton, founder of Jenny's Splendid Ice Creams. Jenny, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, this has been so much fun. Thank you for inviting me, Guy and your team.

• 53:59Guy Raz?

  You're the best, you're the best. It's great having you. And by the way, if you haven't heard Jenny's original, How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out. We'll put a link in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  It was the call that none of us could have imagined, ever wanted to get. A pint of ice cream in Lincoln, Nebraska, tested positive for listeria. So we decided that we were going to recall everything, which meant that 265 tons of ice cream that had been out in the world came back to us. And there we were.

• 54:32Guy Raz?

  Did you think there was a possibility that you would shut down? That your business could basically end?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  I think at that point, we realized that that was it. And it was weird because I kept a journal at the time and I was like, I don't even have any ideas.

• 54:49Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, we checked in with our callers and we are glad to say that their businesses are all doing pretty well since we first spoke to them. And they're following some of our advice. Callie says Ube has seen stable growth and have had tons of folks reach out about her products. Casey says she took our advice to apply for SBA loans and grants. And those new funds have helped launch Jaju pierogis in Giant and Target stores throughout Midwest. And they've grown their food service by 40%. And Jesse says that Jesse & Benz has grown from being in 400 stores to now being in more than 5,000 stores across chains like Whole Foods, Sprouts, Target and Costco.

• 55:33Guy Raz?

  They also recently raised $10 million to help support all of this growth. And that round of investors included some legendary founders and friends of the show, including Andrew Abraham of Organe, Allison and Stephen Ellsworth of Poppy, and Nick Jemay of Sweetgreen. So congratulations again to Jesse, Casey and Callie. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rausch. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Kerry Thompson, J.C. Howard, Alex Chung, Chris Messine, Carla Estes, Sam Paulson, Elaine Coats and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This.

• 56:15Guy Raz?

  One more mention for our presenting sponsor, Anthropic. Claude is built for people who like to keep pulling on the thread, the research, the planning, the questions, the follow-through, until the work starts to make sense. So try Claude for the next problem worth solving.