Advice Line with Christina Tosi of Milk Bar

Today’s callers: Whitney in Utah wonders how to bridge the gap between pre-seed and institutional investment for her fitness/retail combo space. Then Chloe in the U. K. considers which markets to target for her at-home crafting kits. And Christy in Washington wants to convert gifters into repeat customers for her coffee flavoring brand. Plus, Christina’s take on why Milk Bar is better served with her as Chief Experimenter rather than Chief Executive. Thank you to the founders of The Beau Collective, Cotton Clara, and Vashon Island Coffee Dust. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to the story of how Christina founded Milk Bar https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/e30b17f9-3ecb-493a-8880-f30efd9290b0/embed from our episode back in 2019. This episode was produced by J. C. Howard with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. You can follow HIBT on Twitter https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ and on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 4:22Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on this show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  Joining me this week is Milk Bar founder Christina Tozzi. Christina, great to have you back on the show. Welcome back.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Guy, I've missed you.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  I know you too.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  It's been so many years.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  You were on the show back in 2019. It was a live show. It was so fun. I remember that show. It was like jammed. People were cheering. They were so excited to see you. If anyone listening has missed that episode, go back and listen. We'll drop a link to it in the show notes, so check it out. The basic story, Milk Bar started in 2008. Christina opened up the first Milk Bar where they popularized, she popularized cereal, milk, ice cream, compost cookies, the now famous Milk Bar pie, which is insane. Fast forward to today, their cookies and treats and ice creams are available at thousands of retailers, Whole Foods and Sprouts and Walmart, and they're so good. Christina, the brown butter chocolate chip, the super crunchy mini cookies are so insane.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  They've completely messed up my, I'm gonna, no, not the sugar, but-

• 5:52Speaker 01

  A little bit of sugar.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  A little bit.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Didn't even, didn't even wrong.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  But I can't, I eat the whole bag. That's a problem. I just, I'm like, I just look at it and I'm like-

• 6:00Speaker 01

  It's the crunch. We're texture hounds, you know?

• 6:02Speaker 00

  It's so, they're so good. I know you stepped down as CEO of Milk Bar a couple of years ago to focus on, on the creative side of the business, which is, I think, probably the most interesting, the funnest part of the business. And I urge everybody to do that. Can you, can you give us a quick update on what you've been up to these days and a little bit about your role at Milk Bar?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  I mean, guy, when I think about the time we got to spend in person in 2019, like, we had no idea that night that the way that we walk through the world would change so dramatically. A year from then, let alone, we're what, five, six years from, from the now, seven years almost. A few years ago, I had two babies during, I got bored and I'd like to say, Will and I got bored and we started having babies, we got a giant dog and named her Butter. And then when it was time to kind of go back into work in the office, we moved everyone back into New York City and we thought, a lot of this does not work for us anymore. And one of my big things was because the Milk Bar business had been so stress tested

• 7:04Speaker 01

  through these last years since we spoke, I really had to take a step forward and backwards and to each side and sort of say, where am I best suited here? Like, I'm every bit as passionate, my tank is full with fuel, but I can't just keep driving down the same road, you know, the same feeling with the same map, it's all changed. And my biggest thing was, I am shortchanging the Milk Bar business, holding on to the CEO seat. I would much rather focus on what I'm specifically and uniquely positioned to do, which is like the creative, the culinary, right? Like, no one's taste buds are my taste buds or your taste buds.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  And so now I'm sitting in Nashville, Tennessee, which is where we moved about a year ago. I'm sitting in a garage where I do all my baking, what you can't see off camera is all of the different messy baking experiments I have in my head that might make it to the Milk Bar menu at some point. I just feel more alive and firing on all cylinders than ever, so.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  That's so awesome. And I can't wait to see that kitchen, all, all your, the tubs of like ingredients, I could just imagine them perfectly lining the counters and like, yeah, I sometimes, when I, when I use like odd ingredients, like milk powder for, for cooking, I think of you. Cause it's something you don't use every day, like you toast it and then you, how you use it and anyway. So thank you for that.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Chewy brown buttery notes. My favorite thing about you is that most people don't realize is that you are a baker and a foodie, among many other things.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  I wouldn't call, I, gosh, baker, I wish, I wish, I love cooking, I love cooking.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  If you're talking about toasting milk powder, my friend, you are a baker in my book.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  I'm curious, I mean, from a business perspective, right? I mean, you have, there are so many different things that you do, right? You have cookbooks and TV shows that you host. But from the milk bar side, right? There's the direct sales, the tins and the cakes and the milk bar pie. But also, as I mentioned, you can go into Whole Foods or Walmart or Sprouts and buy milk bar products off the shelf. Where do you guys see like the most potential for growth? Is it having more products on the shelves in big retailers? Is it direct to consumer?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  It's so interesting. You know, we've intentionally built our brand in a way that's much bigger and broader than what, you know, the top line revenue of our P and L is.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Because that's the challenge. It's the challenge for our sales channels to try and catch the size and reach of the brand. So I would say that our biggest opportunity is to continue to find ways to show up in unexpected places. We just did a Krispy Kreme collab that launched yesterday. And like, is that bringing money to our bottom line? Pennies, right? Like, it's not about that. It is getting to share like the milk bar spirit with people all across America. And for us, what's economically savvy about it is it's free earned brand and media as opposed to needing your sales channels to drive a revenue that brings enough money to like the EBITDA line that you can invest in it from a marketing standpoint.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Because at this point, if you're not running a profitable business in 2026.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  I don't know, like, you know, that was different in 2019.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's such an important insight because a lot of founders, right? And people who run brands don't always want to do the collaborations. They don't always want to focus on the brand sort of building side of it because it feels like a waste of time, you know? And you don't necessarily see the return.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  It's not measurable.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Right, you can't measure it. And but it opens you up. It sort of creates the foundation to find those those places where where you can find the products and and and the ideas that will connect in because people already know and trust the brand. And I think that's really important because a lot of people, a lot of brands, I mean, I've been on on this side of it too with some of the things I do, don't want to do the slow and sometimes hard and sometimes not so satisfying things like stand, you know, in front of a coffee shop all day or Whole Foods or whatever it might be.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yes, it that's that's it in a nutshell, Guy.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  All right, Christina, we should probably bring in some callers. Are you ready?

• 11:23Speaker 01

  I can't wait.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Take our first call?

• 11:24Speaker 01

  I can't wait.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  All right, let's do it. All right. Hello, caller, welcome to the device line. You are on with the founder of Milk Bar, Christina Tozzi. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Hello, Guy. Hello, Christina. I'm so excited to be here. My name is Whitney and I am calling in from Park City, Utah. My business is The Beau Collective and we are a fitness and retail hub where locals can sweat, shop, and stay connected.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Wow, OK, well, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in, Whitney. Are you here? So the The Beau Collective, as in B E A U, like my bow.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  OK, it's a fitness studio and a retail space. So explain, like, you walk in and what does what does that look like?

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Yes, it's kind of like a mullet, really. You walk in, it's a retail party up front and then fitness classes operate in the back. So when classes, before they begin and as after they're finished, we have space to dwell and we let people connect and shop and have coffee and hang at the social table before they leave.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Got it. OK, so and and what do you sell in this shop? I mean, is it mostly like workout gear and shirt?

• 12:33Speaker 02

  No, it's full scale, all the goods that we love from Lululemon, Marine Layer, things like that, where I've always just wanted to be able to shop before 10 a.m. and we're open at 6 a.m. when people are finishing their workout.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  It's all apparel, Whitney?

• 12:51Speaker 02

  It's apparel and gifts and home goods and brands and and things that we've loved and we've curated over the last decade.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Okay, and gimme and the classes are like.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  They began hit style, always forty five minutes, and then we've kind of evolved into more heavy lifting, more hybrid setups and things like that as well. But everybody can count on a forty five minute, high spirited experience every time they're in.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  All right, awesome. Tell us a little bit about the revenue, like how much comes from memberships or people going to classes, how much from the retail shop?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's about, at this point, it's a fifty five percent from the fitness, forty five percent from the retail.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  And and either of those growing more or less, you seeing trends in either direction?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  We're actually seeing the retail as an uptick.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  So I think convenience and delight and fun, where people can purchase things and a lot of these brands can showcase what they do to all of these people where they already are.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Got it. And and this is this is one location in Park City is, just give us a quick sense of the ambition here, is it is it a Park City business, you want to just, or or what?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yes, so the ambition and the plan right now, we're expanding and to my hometown in Phoenix, and I really do believe especially, you know, it's fitness and retail, but it's really community and connection that we're selling. And I really see that every town needs something like this. It's not a bar or restaurant, but it's hospitality in a healthy form, and it's getting people to move together, to pick up some goods that you don't have to run out in all of the traffic you can grab at sunrise. And it's really just a reimagined way for people to connect that's that's good for them.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Got it, okay, before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  We've run this business for ten years in Park City, it's profitable, it's doing great. So my question is, in the finance world of this, we're in that sweet spot, just north of friends and family fundraising and just, you know, below anything institutional. So my question is about Bridge Capital, when we're really trying to secure that, how do you really align with people that understand what you're building?

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Got it, and and this is you're raising money to open the location in Phoenix?

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Okay, got it, and so you've raised some, and just roughly, how much have you raised from friends and family?

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Friends and family, we've raised about 600,000.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Okay, and you need closer to a million to open this up?

• 15:21Speaker 02

  We need about 200,000 more.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Okay, got it. All right, I want to bring Christina in. Just launch into it, Christina.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I am so excited for you, Whitney. Just really quickly, will you give me like, what is the like, average order value? Or whatever acronym you use in place of AOV for a customer? Whether they're buying from the retail or the fitness?

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Yes, retail average ticket is between 60 and 85. And then 200 dollar memberships monthly. We have about 200 members.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  I got an idea there for you. Okay, I'm coming back to that. And then what about day parts, night parts? Like, are people coming in and buying in retail at 6:00 AM? Or does that happen during a certain consolidated time of day?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Sure, a typical day is we open the doors at 6:00 AM. Classes run from 6:00 to 10:00 AM. All of those people, call it 80, 100 participants and members, they're able to shop at any point. And then when classes end, the location is in a center. So we just open as a shop and behind the ship lap wall is just vacant until the classes start again.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  So. And is your vision that you continue to build Bo Collective and own and operate it yourself as a, as a private company?

• 16:35Speaker 02

  I, I think we would establish guardians in different markets and cities that have been trained through us that where we own it at a corporate level. But then we have great local people that care so much about the communities that we, we grow them that way.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Got it, like a franchise-ish model. I mean, my, my first thought in like fun, the fundraising, like the niss of your question, right? Like, how do I complete this sort of like 200K bridge round? One of my first thoughts, Whitney, as you were talking about this new community that you're going into, the power of community, the collective. 200K is a lot of money and not a lot of money, depending on who you're talking to on the fundraising round. One of my thoughts is, why not pre-sell some of your memberships, right? Like, knowing what the cost of a membership is? How do you pre-sell the access to this really cool collective and community? What could that look like? I think that could be really interesting.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  I also wrote down, as you said, Park City, like, let's think about what works in Park City, right? Or what Park City is. It's a pretty affluent area. I immediately thought, oh, my gosh, Arizona, is it going to be in Paradise Valley? What about Aspen? What about Jackson Hole? Like, people that have the finances to both want to spend on the retail level, have maybe a little bit more free time, create community, and that also want to care for their own health and wellbeing. Like, what does that look like? Because one of my questions, how is this new market going to support you? How do you know how much you need? That's always the question when you're opening a new unit. Is this market the right fit? And then the other thing I'd really inspire in you to do is, if you don't already have

• 18:17Speaker 01

  the space, like, really get in there with landlords, because there's a lot of vacant spaces all across America. And you can get really great landlord terms. You can get them to pay for your TI, which stands for Tenant Improvements. A lot of them will build out a space for you, deliver the electric you need, the plumbing, et cetera, et cetera. There is a way that you might not even need 200K, or maybe you need less than that, and really bring the landlord in, because it sounds like whoever the landlord is, this Bo Collective is an amenity to them, whether it's to the other tenants on the right or the left, or if it's, you know, mixed use and there is commercial or residential above. Like, there could be some wheeling and dealing there as you're modeling Bo Collective.

• 19:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's interesting, because you have, and I was thinking about, you mentioned some of these other places, right? Paris Valley. I look at, you know, I'm looking at photos of the Bo Collective, I'm thinking of, like, Kilauea and Kauai, you know, some, one of these really cool places where you've got a bunch of affluent people. And I wonder whether you might want to consider something a little radical. Ripped out of the playbook of, there's a bagel chain here in California, a small chain called Boy Chick Bagels, it got a lot of press in the New York Times a few years ago. When they expanded outside of Berkeley, in Northern and Southern California... They actually offered a chance for their customers to have some equity, you know, and small checks. And maybe it's like a bunch of checks for a thousand bucks.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm not saying that's easy, but you know, could you get 200 people? Or, or even smaller checks or some might write 5,000. And, and maybe it's again, it's like a convertible note alone. And they get a 10% discount card, which they can use in Phoenix or in Park City. And, and they're a member of the club, you know? It's like they're not just a, they're an investor, but they're an insider. I mean, if, if you've got passionate people are going there, it might be worth literally putting up a flyer and saying, would you be interested in investing in our expansion? And, you know, it could, could be, it could be an interesting way to raise money.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  I think you're right. In the spirit of our people, we really are kind of like the tailgaters, the people that, you know, went to college and some days miss it a little bit, right? It's, it's a coed vibe of people that just root for each other. They're such great people that really turning it into even just on a small scale, that they could have a piece of it could be really fun.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And by the way, Whitney, like what guy is talking about? If you think about it, like, how do people choose like where they're going to work out or shop? I don't know about you, but for me, it's like proximity, right? The easiest.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  So like, how do you canvas the area closest to your new Phoenix Bo Collective? With word of mouth, maybe you're a part of, you know, other local business owners and shops where you're putting up these physical flyers or digital flyers. On top of that, you get these people to buy in. Girl, you don't even have to be stressed out about marketing when you open, right? Because you already have 200 or 400 new customers.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  Who are gonna be spreading the word.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  That are excited to come in. And what I'd also say to you, Whitney, is a few things. One, one person's opinion.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  You want to take institutional capital as late in the game as possible, if not wait forever, right? Like, challenge yourself to never take it. There's a lot of great things that come from institutional capital, but you're on the record, right? Like, they believe in you and your vision and your dream, but there is a lot of extra work in terms of reporting and strategy and board level things that also take you away from the founder entrepreneurial visionary spirit. And there are so many clever, creative ways in nowadays than ever before to not have to go to that well. I think a lot of times as early on entrepreneurs, I know I was that way, thinking, that's a sign that I've made it, right? When I'm able

• 22:08Speaker 01

  to raise money and leverage that money in and in, but there's so much else that comes with it. So unlocking this yourself is going to give you the future power of choice on so many different levels, while also training your entrepreneurial brain to be smart and savvy and gritty in all the ways that you are going to need for all of the years of Bo Collective to come.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  I totally agree. Whitney, it's congrats on building this. Good luck in Phoenix. The company's called the Bo Collective. If you're in Phoenix, look out for it. Whitney Kozlowski, thanks so much for calling in.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you so much.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm now I'm on the website. I'm like, yeah, the brands are cool. The clothes are cool. It's like a nice curated space. And yeah, I mean,

• 22:54Speaker 01

  The site is awesome. Should we quit our day jobs? I want to both go work for Whitney. Do you want to work out and then have a cookie? I will be your chief of staff, babe. Let's go.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

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• 26:56Speaker 00

  Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Christina Tozzi, the founder of Milkbar. And we're taking your calls. And let's bring in our next caller.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Ooh, I can't wait.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Hi, Guy and Christina. I'm Chloe, and I'm calling from Leicestershire in the UK. And I'm the founder of Cotton Clara. We make beginner-friendly craft kits that are designed to help people discover crafting and making, and hopefully find a hobby that they love.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in, Chloe. So Leicestershire is Midlands, right?

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, right in the middle. Yeah, Leicester, Nottingham, Birmingham.

• 27:35Speaker 00

  Birmingham, okay, cool.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  That area.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Awesome. Thank you for calling in. Thanks for listening to the show. So tell us a little bit about Cotton Clara. You sell craft kits?

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Describe them.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  So they're designed to be beginner friendly. I kind of saw this market, you know, 10 years ago, and it felt so old fashioned and I I felt like there was a gap for design led, modern kits that appeal to people that have a kind of are design conscious and want something beautiful in their homes.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  And what can you get? Like you make, I mean, is it is it like embroidery or sewing? Like, what are the things that you that you make?

• 28:16Speaker 03

  So depending on the kit, so you either create a kind of a little work of art that is framed in in the hoop that you stitch in and then you put it on your wall. Or we, one of our really popular kits is a friendship bracelet making kit.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  Oh, nice.

• 28:31Speaker 03

  We have paper craft kits, all different types of things. We have a flower press kit. So it depends which kind of craft you choose.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Awesome. And you said you started this 10 years ago, about 10 years ago?

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the the seed of an idea was 10 years ago, but really the business got serious in 2020, kind of end of 2019, 2020.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  And you sell everything direct to consumer or do you also sell into stores?

• 28:57Speaker 03

  It's about 60% direct to consumer and about 40% wholesale, but wholesale is really growing at the moment, especially wholesale to the US.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  Okay. And are most of your customers in the UK and Europe? Or also, you mentioned wholesale to the US. Where are they coming from, your customers?

• 29:12Speaker 03

  Most of our wholesale customers are in the US, but most of our D to C customers at the moment are in the UK.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  And where do you sell in the US, by the way?

• 29:19Speaker 03

  We sell to Barnes and Noble, Anthropologie, and then loads of kind of shops, independent, small, or maybe small in America, but in the UK, they're huge.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  And and give us a sense of what of of your annual sales, like what what do you expect to hit this year or?

• 29:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, this year, we've just had our best year yet. We turned over 1.2 million dollars this year or last year. So that was our.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  Great. Amazing. So that's a huge milestone. And before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

• 29:48Speaker 03

  So our question is, our our business serves three different markets. So gifting, craft enthusiasts, like your classic crafter, and then the kind of wellness movement. And we're not sure which positioning will best drive the scale we need to build a truly profitable business. So we'd love advice on how to identify the audience most likely to buy repeatedly and how that should shape our product development and our route to market.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  All right. So, so gifters, crafters, wellnessers.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Uh, okay. Who do you, where do you go to? Okay. Christina, Christina Tozzi, I want to bring you in. Crafting, cool business, over a million dollars in sales now. Awesome. She's doing great. But there's some choices and decisions to make.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  It is so true. I mean, Chloe, first off, congratulations. 1.2 million. That's huge. Second of all, I want everything on your. I'm a crafter. I was raised by women. The granny spirit is alive and well in me. It's definitely how I was raised and all of the free time we crafted. Craft kits did not exist. So you had to like raid grandma's basement for, you know, for thread and for old pieces of fabric. The fabric store, the yard sales, that sort of stuff. I also think it's a really interesting moment where you're at where, to your point, like the business really started taking off in 2020.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Right? Like that shows like a macro trend, but an interesting one because I see your business as crafting, acknowledging that gifting and wellness are ways that crafting finds its way into people's lives that aren't just thinking about crafting first and foremost. Well, also, at least in the US, what we're seeing, we're seeing a lot of, like, there's a reason Etsy took off. But there's also a reason why craft stores like the big box, Michaels, Joann, a lot of those crafting first stores have suffered on just like a brick and mortar real estate basis. But also when you look at our other big boxes like a Target or a Walmart, they're doubling and tripling down into this crafty spirit.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  There's, you're on to something. You're on to an activity that we picked up in the pandemic that we haven't lost, right? That we're continuing to find really, really dynamic stickiness with, joyful stickiness with. As a baker, I am a believer that. The activities where we get to create and bring things to life, whether we're being serious about it or not being serious about it, are activities that are going to continue to be really powerful for us in an age that continues to be increasingly digital, right?

• 32:25Speaker 03

  We feel like that, like the potential is massive and huge, yeah, for kind of this industry.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  What do you, like, where, what do you want to do with, with Cotton Clara? Is it, is it international expansion? Is it, um, how are you thinking about that? I appreciate the like, what are we? But I am curious to sort of like, what do you want to be?

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, we want to be a, a big global brand. We want to get people making all over the world. But I, I want to be a brand that does that in a sustainable way. So, um, yeah, we're, we're dreaming really big.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Got it. Okay, here are some thoughts that I have for you, Chloe. I wonder if, and this is something my husband and I, my husband's also an entrepreneur. This is a game we play at home all the time. When we're faced with a challenge of like, is it this? Is it this? Is it this? We force ourselves to create one additional option. So when I hear you say, are we gifting? Are we crafting? Are we wellness? I go, what if you're none of those things? What would you be? And if I had to force myself to come up with another word, it's, it's makers, right? Like you're, what is that? What's the, why? What is the stickiness? I think it's because people are making something like, um, when we are at a crossroads at Milk Bar and we're trying to figure out, is this the right product or is that the right product? Is this the right language?

• 33:48Speaker 01

  What's going to be sticky? We go to our community first and knowing that you have a 60% DTC customer base, poll them. They may have some of the answers. They may give you some texture that helps give you direction. And then the other thing that I think could just be cool. I have a friend named Alisa. She's actually a neighbor of guys in San Francisco on the West Coast. She fell in love with baking and for her baking is about like community. She started doing this thing a few years ago called Cake Picnic.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  And she has gotten sponsors and now she throws these things and people come together in a park one day and they eat cake together. It's literally a party as an excuse to eat cake.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Yes. And people make these beautiful elaborate cakes. They do do it at Gold Gate Park. It's incredible.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  So part of me is like, what is the like, what is the makers picnic where people come and cross stitch together or friendship? I mean, girl, I'm a friendship bracelet wearing fiend over here. Like you need the idea of making crafting, whatever it is, to get out much further beyond growing your business. I believe that's going to be a secret to your global domination success and getting us excited about being makers.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  All right, Chloe, take it for what's worth, but I, I have a slightly different perspective, which is I actually think that your customer is the repeat customer. Like it doesn't matter if they're a gifter and they're buying or if it's, I think craft enthusiast probably is the most challenging because they are probably often looking for the best value or lowest price. Let's say not even best value. But it's like, so, and I think the wellness thing is really interesting, right? I don't think it's a trend. People aren't, you know, they're looking for ways to find fulfillment, spiritual meaning. And for better or worse, it's a massive exploding industry when you consider everything that fits inside

• 35:50Speaker 00

  of it. So I mean, I think that, you know, you want to start looking to see who's buying your stuff more than once. Who's buying it four or five times a year? What is it about them? Maybe contact them or, or see if they will talk to you in, in exchange for a free product and just download who they are, why they're buying it, what they like about it. Because I think every decision you make, whether it's a marketing campaign or social media or whatever you can put into that, it should all answer that question. How do we get people to come back? How do we deepen the relationship with them?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Wait, can I say one thing about the wellness thing? Because I like where you're going in it. My caveat or my sort of like asterisk that I'd say to it is, It is wellness, but it's inherently a joyful wellness pursuit.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  And so how do you think about what the right word choice is? Because if you use wellness too closely, it's gonna feel like you're saying eat your vegetables. And we as humans are gonna run in the other direction.

• 36:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  So what is the like wordsmith of this look like as you're? So you have a few different options when you go to talk to your repeat customers and A and N. Is it about unlocking creativity?

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Are they creativity kits and not crafting kits, you know, et cetera, et cetera?

• 37:04Speaker 03

  Clay, I really love that clay.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  I think that's a great idea. Unlock, you don't wanna say wellness exactly. It's like you're hitting people over the head with it. You wanna talk about unlocking creativity or? And you can also start to explore potential partnerships with really big candle brands. Or, you know, products that are sort of wellness-ish or adjacent that where you might have people interested in doing some kind of cross promotion or collaboration. This leads into this other idea, which could be, I mean, it takes some, some energy, but could be worth it. Like a vertical, just a business vertical, a completely separate part of your business, where you, you start to work with brands, you know, brands that we've had on the show like Airbnb or Canva Milk Bar.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, can I get a Milk Bar crust?

• 37:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm looking at some of your, your, um, your designs here and they're cool. Like little bento boxes and ramen and you could potentially, you know, Canva has a giant staff like convention every year. Thousands and thousands of people from around the world. Like, could there be some kind of collaboration where you can stitch a Canva logo? Or, uh, you know, something like that, which could be an interesting, totally separate business.

• 38:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that's great. All amazing ideas and yeah, lots to think about.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Chloe, congrats on the business. Cotton Clara, uh, good luck.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Keep going.

• 38:27Speaker 03

  Thanks so much.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  Keep it going.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  Thank you. Bye.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  Bye. The thing I love about this, these kids is that you can be completely useless. Like, I am really, I have a lot of patience for cooking, but for some reason, like, I just can't get my head around this. But I think, because this is easier.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  She's got things where it's like paint by numbers. I could get into that.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Also a friendship bracelet. I mean, I know your kids are like cusp, too old, but like, I make friendship bracelets all the time. Like, I bring embroidery thread in a little sewing kit on the plane with me because it is just, it's something that I can make for someone else. It makes me feel good. It makes them feel good. Like, because once you do it, Guy, you'll be hooked. You'll be like, I can't believe I made that.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  I'm sure.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Your friendship bracelet era is about to begin. Something tells me.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  It's about to begin. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line, right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 41:14Speaker 00

  Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Milk Bar founder Christina Tosi. So Christina, ready, ready for our next call?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Ooh, let's go.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  All right, let's bring in our final caller. Welcome to the advice line. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 41:31Speaker 07

  My name is Kristy Clement. I'm calling in from Washington State, and I'm the founder of Vashon Island Coffee Dust. So we make spice blends to flavor your coffee without sweeteners. So there's no coffee in Coffee Dust, just real spices, cinnamon, cardamom, cayenne, things like that to add to your coffee. And it's a clean alternative to creamers and syrups. Or if you're a black coffee drinker, it's just a fun way to change it up in the morning.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Oh, awesome. Welcome to the show, Kristy. So these are, they're powders, but it's not, they're not sweetened, and it's not like a, you know, powdered milk. It's, it's just spices that you add to the coffee.

• 42:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, so the whole idea is they're blends. Some people already add some cinnamon or nutmeg to your coffee, right? And these are super fun blends. So we have a gingerbread blend. We have a couple of spicy ones, a hot mama and a spicy papa that have cayenne in them. And the hot mama, for example, is cocoa and a little bit of cinnamon, some cayenne, and some sea salt. That's it.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  Interesting. And does it, I mean, I'm curious, because if you add that to coffee, it doesn't necessarily dissolve, right? I mean, does it, how does it like integrate with the coffee? Do you really get those flavors?

• 42:38Speaker 07

  You really do, yeah. So we get our spices ground extremely, extremely finely, and that helps to dissolve in. I'll also hit it with a frother. So you can add it to your coffee after you've made it, just dust it on top. That's what most people do. You can also froth it with your milk.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  Oh, I like that.

• 42:55Speaker 07

  Or you can add it to your grounds, use a little bit more, but you can brew it with your whole pot.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  How, how long, uh, when did you start this business?

• 43:02Speaker 07

  About five years ago. This is, this is a COVID baby. I used to be an IT consultant, teaching software teams to act like startups. But I've never been in the food business and I was a new coffee drinker during COVID, filling, as most new coffee drinkers do, their coffee full of junk, right? Cream and sugar and things like that. But a friend introduced me to spice blends adding to coffee and I was able to get off the cream and the sugar using that method. And I just fell in love with it. I started playing around with other flavors and as work started picking back up, uh, at the end of the pandemic, I thought, all right, well, I don't have time for this. I'll just buy it from somebody because I was completely addicted at that point, but nobody made it. And so I knew I had to start a business.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  All right. Vashon Island, that's the island in the Puget Sound, right?

• 43:48Speaker 07

  It's in Puget Sound.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Puget Sound, forgive me.

• 43:50Speaker 07

  Yep, yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, in, near Seattle. Okay. So, uh, you are selling these how? Where? Mostly through your website?

• 43:58Speaker 07

  We have five different channels. We're on our website. We, we do a lot of in-person markets. We do Etsy. We have a wholesale channel. We're in about 50 independent gift stores and coffee shops across the country and we sell on Amazon.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  Awesome. And, um, how'd you guys do last year?

• 44:14Speaker 07

  We did 277,000 in revenue and we've been profitable from day one. So, and we've been doubling our revenue.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  Amazing. Okay. So, so before we dive in, uh, what is your question?

• 44:23Speaker 07

  So I know many Coffee Dust customers discover us through gifting and then become loyal buyers for themselves. And that flywheel feels really powerful, but I'm not sure how to deliberately design for it. Christina, I suspect you had a similar challenge with Milk Bar and I'd love both of your thoughts on how I can intentionally create that gifting loyal buyer loop.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  All right, Christina, Vashon Island Coffee Dust. Christie is looking for some, uh, you know, ideas on how to get those people coming back again. Again, um, thoughts, ideas, questions?

• 44:57Speaker 01

  You know, it's so, first of all, Christie, congratulations. Um, one, I think it's a great concept. Like people's drink ritual is truly that. It's sacred. It's a ritual. And I think because we all love food and flavor, like the sweet spot of what you're doing makes a lot of sense. You know, when we started Milk Bar, my, first of all, my goal was to like have a bakery and stay alive. I did not anticipate being a gifting experience. I thought I was just selling a warm cornflake chocolate marshmallow cookie out of the oven, or a slice of, you know, cake unfrosted on the sides, or a little ding a soft serve. And the DTC part of our business, we launched our care package business just so we could reach someone that was never going to make it to our New York

• 45:41Speaker 01

  City bakery. But what we realized really quickly that was that it became a thing. If it is gifting, you have to think first and foremost about, of course, the take rate, right? Who is, who is gifting it? And then how do they want it to appear as a gift? How do you make their job as the gift giver as big and brilliant as and easy as possible? So thinking about, you know, we chose a literally, it's shipping in the mail. It's insane to use a white box, right? It doesn't, doesn't arrive in pristine white box order. But babe, in a sea of cardboard Amazon boxes, when that box arrives, that we have social media, that's just people being like,

• 46:21Speaker 01

  oh, my gosh, I can see this white box with a pink milk script in a sea of cardboard, right? Like, how does it show up in a way that gives someone that tingly joyful, right? Like, I love that. And I think it's the same thing. If gifting is your segment, really, really thinking about that, and there's going to be some tension points, right? Between what is absolutely the most efficient and what is going to feel giftable and gif worthy, then you're thinking about, okay, so how do I afford nicer packaging? Can I bundle it with a frother? And then it's an even cooler experience, but I can actually charge more and afford for the nicer packaging because a frother doesn't actually cost that much money. Then when it's being gifted, how is it showing up in

• 47:05Speaker 01

  someone's life? For us, it's usually like a high value occasion. It's someone's birthday. It's someone's graduation. It's someone's wedding. For you, it might be a housewarming gift. This is going to be, it's free marketing for you, girl. It's like a Trojan horse, right? You get to be on their coffee counter. So what should that look like from a coffee counter standpoint? You don't see my coffee in my house because no one has figured out how to make The coffee experience look pretty enough to sit on the shelf of my kitchen and so it gets tucked away in a cabinet. Is there something beautiful that's also efficient in the way that it is used that can enhance someone's coffee station? Like those little things I think are really important. I'm, I'm, look at me, I'm like

• 47:46Speaker 01

  in and so excited for you and gonna try all these dust, but I'm also going, I drink coffee in the morning, but my evening tea, I want the healthful cinnamon turmeric ginger nutmeg. I want that in my tea at night. And so that's the other thing that I would just, you didn't ask for this advice, but I'm gonna give it to you as a very impassioned consumer. I have beverage rituals that extend beyond coffee and I believe that your dust could extend there too. And that could be an interesting way to expand and grow business.

• 48:15Speaker 07

  They absolutely do. And we, and we do tend to, when we first explain it, it's, it's really about the coffee, but we do, when we send it out, send a little info sheet on what else you can use it in, because it is other beverages, but it's also, you know, add a little cocoa column, which is cocoa and lavender to your whipped cream and with some strawberries. It's amazing. I had a customer one time tell me they used captains on chicken as a dry rub, like blew my mind, right?

• 48:40Speaker 01

  It sounds like you have a fair amount of UGC, user generated content, anecdotally or otherwise, right? Like, did you know you could use captains on your next chicken bake? You know, did you know you could, you know, add this to hot water and get an incredible tea? You can steep this in your hot chocolate, et cetera, et cetera. Like you can really test and learn what's sticky for your regular customers without it feeling so direct of like a repeat ploy as opposed to giving them more reasons to come back because they hadn't thought about using your product in a different way.

• 49:14Speaker 00

  You know, I, I was thinking about what you were saying, Christina, and I, I totally agree. Like I, I, cause I'm looking at this product and I'm thinking, okay, you know, you want to focus on like making it really easy and frictionless on how to use it. And you had mentioned, Christie, that you sprinkle it on, on frothed coffee or something. Cause I didn't, I just figured, you know, people just mix into the coffee. So initially I was like, well, maybe, maybe you should have a QR code with a video. Maybe you do that already when people get it. Like here's a video, here's me making it, here's how I love to do it. But actually the frictionless side of this is. To think about, how do you make this so easy, right? Like, like a K cup, right? You don't, I looked this up, you don't need a license to make a K cup. I guess the patent or whatever expired over 10 years ago.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Anybody can make a K cup shaped pod where you just stick it in. And that's it, you've got it. You've got all the flavors and the benefits, et cetera.

• 50:10Speaker 07

  That's great. I love that.

• 50:12Speaker 00

  I mean, it's not easy to do right away. And, and sure, in the meantime, you know, you want to figure out again, how to, how to create repeat customers, right? Because you want people to use this every day.

• 50:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  Christy Clement, Vashon Island Coffee Dust. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.

• 50:28Speaker 07

  Thank you guys so much. It was a pleasure. I appreciate it.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, thanks.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Bye, Christy.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  Christina, you are like, wow, you're a business school professor because your practical advice is so good.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  You too, school of hard knocks, right? To run and grow a business over the last 18 years, right? Like, you learn a lot about what you don't know. And then you learn to stay super duper curious and passionate about what you don't know. You know, truly.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  Before I let you go, I want to ask you one, one final question, which is if you could go back 18 years to, you know, when, in those early days when you built out Milk Bar, what would have been helpful for you to know back then that, that may have made it a little easier, better, or maybe not? I don't know.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  You know, I, I'd spend a lot of my time these days reflecting, probably because I'm waiting for a batch of, you know, cookies or cake, whatever it is, to bake.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  It's not the early day advice, believe it or not. It's probably like the year three, year four, year five, all the way to like, maybe year 10 advice. And it's really simple. It's you know what you know better than anyone else. Do not lose the way as the founder, as the entrepreneur, you know what you know about your business better than anyone else. So stay open and curious, but do not ever shortchange what you know. You may not have a business degree, right? You may not have all these other things that these other collaborative partners or mentors have, but I'll tell you the one thing you have that no one else has, and it's what you know to be true right here.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  And I, I, that's one thing I, I'm saying it to you because I remind myself of it every single day. Once I learned it, I thought, ooh, I'm never going to forget it.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. Christina, thanks for coming back on the show.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  I had so much fun with you today. Thanks for having me, Guy.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  It's great having you. That's Christina Tosi, founder of Milk Bar. And by the way, if you haven't heard Christina's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out. Really great episode, super fun and funny. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  I just remember my BlackBerry kept buzzing and buzzing. And I was like, what is going-- like, did the bakery catch fire? Is my family OK? What could this possibly be? And I had all these voicemails. And I have-- my favorite voicemail was from this woman in Kansas City, who I think maybe was someone's grandma. And she was just like, well, I heard Anderson Cooper talk about this crackpot. And I'm never going to make it to New York. So would you mind shipping me one? And it was like, are you going to tell her? Are you going to call her back and tell her no? Because I was not going to call her back and tell her no. And we now have an online business where you can email us. And that is like, when opportunity knocks, what are you going to say?

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Like, mm, not today. When it's time to rise to the occasion, you rise.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keely.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Elaine Coats, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.