Advice Line with Eric Ryan of Method

Method co-founder and serial entrepreneur Eric Ryan joins Guy on the Advice Line to answer questions from three early-stage founders. Plus, Eric shares his strategies for entering new market categories, and gives an update on his latest venture, Tandy, a functional candy company. First, Aubrey in Tennessee asks how to find a mentor to help her and her husband with their expanding line of bakeries and restaurants. Then Maggie from Chicago weighs whether it’s time to take on an outside investor for her unique travel luggage. And finally, Matt in Arizona wonders how to best scale his three-in-one adventure gloves in retail. Thank you to the founders Transparent Hospitality, Props Luggage and Flipmits for being a part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to Method’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/8d3ce6b4-53b5-42be-aac7-904e387a3f9e/embed as told by Eric and his co-founder Adam Lowry on the show in 2018. This episode was produced by Katherine Sypher with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch. You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com and on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 5:18Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas

• 6:03Guy Raz?

  from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Joining me this week is Eric Ryan. He's a serial entrepreneur, co-founder of, wait for it, Method, Welly, Ollie, and so many other brands. Eric, it's great to have you back on the show.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Guy, thanks for having me.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  You were originally on the show back in 2018, you and Adam Lowry, your Method co-founder. I interviewed you guys in person in San Francisco. And just to remind people of the story, you guys were childhood friends from Michigan. You were both on the sailing teams. And then after college, you moved to San Francisco. And then in the 90s, you guys started to talk about starting a cleaning products business. And this, by the way, was when everyone in San Francisco in the 90s was talking about a tech company. You guys were talking about a cleaning products company, but one that was environmentally friendly, but that actually worked. And so in 2001, you launched Method, selling the now very well-known colorful soaps in

• 7:10Speaker 01

  those sleek bottles, which we talked about on the show, how you spent so much time designing those bottles. The brand was eventually acquired by Essie Johnson. Then you went on to co-found, as I mentioned, a bunch of other brands, including the gummy vitamin company, Ollie, and the first aid brand, Welly, which were also acquired. By the way, if you guys haven't heard my original episode with Eric Ryan and Adam Lowry, I really recommend it. It's an excellent episode, and we will put a link to it in the show notes. Eric, before we get to today's callers, it's been a few years since you've been on the show. So I wanted to just kind of ask a couple of questions. First of all, one of the things that you've done and really started with with Method

• 7:52Speaker 01

  is you're not an expert necessarily in any of these things, in vitamins, or soap, or first aid. But you go into spaces where you find opportunities. So how do you? How do you think about about starting businesses? I mean, do you are you literally looking for where there might be an opportunity?

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I definitely have like a little bit of an academic approach to it. Unlike a lot of founders will follow something they're really passionate about, or they see a problem in the world they want to solve. I really start with like categories. And so I will look for spaces that I think are a sea of saveness. And that's kind of the clue dig here. And what I do is I look for what I call like the culture shift or the macro trend that that category is missing. So in the case of method, we found two is lifestyle in the home. Like, nobody thought about these products as a as a form of self-expression in your home. I mean, you look at a dish soap more than you use it. At the same time, this is back in 2000, you couldn't buy a natural product outside of a natural store. But yet you were asked to pollute when you clean or use poison to make your home healthier.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  So those were the two macro trends of high design and deep sustainability that we built the brand off of. And so within each business, that's the opportunity I look for. And I kind of then, you know, build a strategy around it. And to your point of like, you just got to get in and figure it out.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember you talking about with method that you used to just wander the aisles of grocery stores looking for ideas.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Still do.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  So right now I'm focused on building a functional candy brand called Tandy. You can find it at Target, Amazon.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  It's going to be CVS.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  And functional means it's kind of got healthy things in it, like nootropics or whatever.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  That's right. So it's I've always wanted, I think Willy Wonka is my favorite movie of all time. So let's go be Willy. So Tandy is a better for you candy, low sugar, nothing artificial, tastes great, but each one has a functional benefit.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  It's amazing how many different brands you've built and and how so many of them have been successful. One of the things that I think is really critical to mention, Eric, is that you've also started brands that didn't work out. Right, which is which is really important to know, right? Is that in order to have those big successes, you know, Ollie and Welly and method, you also you've got to take big, big swings, right?

• 10:13Speaker 02

  That's right. I loved Tony, my dear friend, Tony Shay, who we lost, would always say like, sometimes you're you're sitting at the wrong poker table. And, you know, until you get into an industry and really understand the characteristics of it. And look, you always have to go in being naive. And having that beginner's eye, otherwise you wouldn't do it. But no, failure is part of it. I've had failures of both on the business side as well as within the, you know, companies that have been, you know, successful. You know, method, we had an original personal care line called Block.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  A massive failure.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  We talked about that massive failure and cost you guys a lot of money.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  That's right. And you pick yourself up and you get right back at it and you keep building. But no, failure has to be part of it. And as I said to my kids, like with skiing, if you're not falling down, well, you're just not trying hard enough.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  And really you've become known as a, as a sort of a creative brand builder. Like you focus a lot on, in the method conversation, we talked, I think, you know, a significant part of that conversation was just talking about the bottle design. That, that really was so important, even though you were making an organic, because a lot of people think, okay, let's make an organic soap, we'll slap organic on the label, it'll say toxic free and, you know, and people will flock to it for those reasons. And your, your view was, well, that's not good enough. Let's make a beautiful bottle that looks so nice, you want to put on your sink. And, you know, if they discover it's organic afterwards, great.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Like, so is design for you the core, the sort of the center of how you build products?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  It is, and it's not just, I mean, I see design as part of a tool in creating brands that have an incredible emotional connection. And I want to create brands and products that the second you see it, you want it. And then hopefully you actually need it, which is fun going into these, like more fundamental categories. But the, the heart of it, what I'm trying to create is almost like objects of desire. And I want to create this emotional connection through great design, great creativity, like working every touch point to be able to do that. And I think if you really dig down a little deeper, kind of part of, like I say, I'm a one trick pony, but part of my trick is, I try to almost bring like an inner child approach to these very serious categories. And so, I mean, you look at method, it almost looks like what a, what a kid would want to clean with.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Ollie, what I did was I brought kids gummy vitamins to the adult market. Wellie, I got adults to wear, you know, bandages that were, were supposed to be for kids. And I think that's how I create that emotional connection is this almost like, as I said, inner, inner child approach to these very, very serious categories.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Eric, when you launched method, you know, 25 years ago, it was a different landscape. But how, how does it, I mean, how do you think about? Distributing a product, selling a product, is it, are you leaning heavily into online? Is it, do you still believe in the traditional, you know, Walmarts, Targets and Krogers of the world?

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I very much do. I think today it's just much more of an omni-channel approach. I don't think it's one or the other. And I don't think consumers look at that way. They don't, when they see a brand that started off as more of a traditional D to C online brand, they see it inside of a Target. They don't think of like, oh, there's that D to C brand now available in wholesale. They think like, oh, that's that brand I love. And I think vice versa. And then for someone like me, those retail partnerships are, I still think there's no more valuable real estate in America than an end cap at a Target. And the efficiency of scales working with them is still really important.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  And is, for example, with candy, is it enough to have an end cap or to have decent placement at Target? Or, and then, you know, if you build it, they will come kind of thing? Like it will sell on its own? Or do you still have to, you know, are you still putting in considerable dollars into marketing the thing?

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think of, you know, I still think of advertising as a tax on an unremarkable product. And the better you get the product, the packaging, and something that creates that immediate connection, then marketing is really just gravy and jet fuel to be able to accelerate that. But today, no, you've got to, you've got to be able to win on shelf immediately. You've got to do that through great visual merchandising, great packaging, a product, you know, a product that is instantly, you know, you can instantly understand. But then, no, you have to be building through Instagram, social, TikTok. You kind of have to do it all today to build a modern brand. And the ones that are really breaking out, you're seeing their ability to do that.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, congrats on everything you've built and on what you're building now with Tandy. I'm excited to see where that goes. Why don't we bring in our first caller? You ready?

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  All right. Hello, caller. Welcome to the advice line, Your Honor, with Eric Ryan. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Hi, Guy. Hi, Eric. My name is Aubrey Wolaski. I'm calling from Franklin, Tennessee. My husband and I own Transparent Hospitality. We have five locations in northern Nevada and we recently just moved our four little kids to the greater Nashville area to expand our bakery and restaurant concept called Perren.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  All right, well, welcome to the show, Aubrey. So you have a business that is a food business and what other, what's under that besides a bakery?

• 15:24Speaker 03

  So we kind of expanded our bakery concept. It's a bakery, vanwastery, naturally leavened bread restaurant. And we expanded it to Perren Grocery where we have three different locations in Reno. We do have a little restaurant called Clayo. It's a rotisserie. So we recently decided to combine our rotisserie concept and our bakery concept and open in the Nashville area. So we are, we just opened, actually, I'm upstairs of the restaurant. We opened this week in Franklin, Tennessee.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Oh, congrats.

• 15:54Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Wait, do you have, you have five locations and four kids?

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  So you've got, and you're splitting this between Reno, Nevada and Franklin, Tennessee. Okay, let's, let's dive into this. And you do this with your husband, you said?

• 16:08Speaker 03

  Yes, my husband Tyler.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Okay, and tell me how you guys, how this all started? Because this is a sprawling business. You've got a bakery called Perren, right? And then a grocery and you've got a rotisserie restaurant and then bakery and restaurants in Tennessee?

• 16:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  And all called Perren?

• 16:26Speaker 03

  All called Perren, yes. So we're kind of, I mean, we have never done this before. We're kind of just going for it, as you can tell, we had four kids. So we actually, we met at culinary school at the CIA in Hyde Park, New York.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  You and Tyler did?

• 16:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Oh, nice, okay.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  We're very passionate for the industry, but we also were really passionate about changing the industry. So we actually started as private chefs in the Lake Tahoe area. That snowballed into having a catering company and to supply our own catering company with great bread. My husband taught himself the sourdough and then laminated pastries. And we decided to open a little bakery on the side while doing our catering company.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Wow. I'm, I'm looking at your website for Perren. But by the way, what does Perren mean?

• 17:11Speaker 03

  It's short for perennial.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Oh, nice, okay. And it's a great, I love the little rabbit logo you've got. It's really cool. And the, wow, the pastries look absolutely amazing. Before I ask you more questions, tell me what question you brought for us today.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  Okay, so as young entrepreneurs, my biggest question is how do we find a mentor that can help guide us, help us with large questions while still maintaining the ethos and the vision that we personally have?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  All right, good place to be. You've got two of them right here for the next few minutes. But before we answer your question, Eric, any questions for Aubrey?

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, first of all, I love your, I'm just looking at your site right now. I love your identity and I'm just in awe of how much you're doing. It's absolutely incredible. So congrats on everything. It's gotta be exhausting, but tell me a little bit more on mentor advisor. Where are the areas in the business that you're feeling most insecure or where you feel like you need the most support as you're scaling up this business?

• 18:11Speaker 03

  Probably around scale. We started as 23, 24-year-olds, really only leaning on our own intuition and what felt right, knowing that the backbone of everything was being very transparent. That's why we coined our company Transparent Hospitality with not only our customers, but with our own team. We have now a team of 120 people.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 18:33Speaker 03

  We're not ever trying to become a, I mean, everyone says, are you going to, you know, franchise? Will you become a chain? I think we have so much energy and so much growth and we know all the things that we want to do and we want to be able to pace that out. So for us, we've never had a mentor. We've really just kind of gone with it and hoped for the best. But as we get a little bit more serious and have a little bit more people to take care of, we want to make sure that we're, you know, bouncing ideas off of people, especially as we grow into a larger city. So I would say it's predominantly about, about the growth and, you know, gauging whether or not it is a good point to grow or when to take a pause.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Aubrey, you, I imagine you feel like you're on a hamster wheel that just is never gonna stop. Is that fair to say?

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Yes, but it's all our own doing, you know, so it's a happy hamster wheel, if you will.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm just in awe of what you guys have done because I know the food space so well. And Eric, you've been involved as an investor, I know, in some food brands. And it's a challenging, you know, bakeries, restaurants, really challenging business.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, to Guy's point, I sit on a couple of restaurant boards. One of them, you're probably familiar with Flower and Water here in San Francisco. And they're going through a similar process that you are, we're building out a chain of pizzerias and starting to scale up the business. But have you thought, you've taken new outside capital, have you thought about putting together either a small board or a small advisor group? And there's different ways to compensate them through cash, you know, which is considered more phantom equity. But if you consider putting together like a small, maybe like a trio of advisors that could start to work with you, almost as a board.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 03

  I would love to do that.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, one of the ways many, certainly high-end restaurants make it and thrive is there is usually an investor or a group of investors behind it, but certainly one kind of main investor who joins as an operator as well. And I know that's to be the case with several, you know, sort of Michelin-style restaurants in the Bay Area. What you guys are doing is just high level. And you want to, as you said, you want to find somebody like a Danny Meyer, somebody who's not going to compromise, right, on qualities, who's not somebody who's just going to want to expand and just sell franchises. And, you know, soon you're going to be going to your bakeries and people are going to be just making Pillsbury, you know, Pillsbury croissants or something, right? You don't want that. You want somebody who really believes in the business.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  I wonder whether, Eric, whether that person is also an investor, somebody who joins as an investor, but who also part of that is that they are helping to guide the business.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I get it too, like, you have full control right now. And once you bring in outside capital, it comes with expectations of how are you going to provide a liquidity return on that. But if you can find the opportunity to bring in a long-term partner who is, who wants to build it for cash flow, so you don't ever have that pressure to sell the business someday, and to Guy's point, who can also be a great, you know, smart money, a great strategic partner. And look, this is a real passion industry, too. And so finding somebody who's got that same passion that you have could be a nice Goldilocks fit.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Can I ask you a question regarding that investment piece? You know, we've, we've had this for about six years now, so we do have, you know, a pretty decent sales. How do you classify what would be worth it to bring the investor to give up equity?

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, if you haven't done it already, and I'm sure you're, you and your husband probably get zero time together, but if you could like book a place to go for a few days and really build out what is your three to five year vision? And really build that vision and that plan of where do you want to get to? And then work backwards from there. Understand what, you know, can you self fund it? Or do you need capital to get there? And then, once you decide which path you need to go, I would then figure out what are the key areas that you feel like you need to bring some, you know, a few people in to really help you, whether it's, it's operations, finance? And then populate around a small advisor board of maybe three people, then you and your husband. So it keeps it to five. Odd numbers are always best.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  I think then, then you have a real clear vision of who you need around the table. And the beauty of putting together, like if you don't take outside capital, you don't need a true board, but, but having a group of people function as a board, it kind of creates these like tent pole moments and puts structure around the business to help you create a really clear rhythm to help you scale more. And then I think, once you build that plan, like I think everything flows from that, whether you do need to take capital or not, or if you want secondary to be able to get a little financial relief.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, Aubrey, you are in the hospitality business, right? At the end of the day?

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  I mean, obviously you're making an incredible product, I can see, but, but, but really, and I read your mission statement, really you're in the business of bringing people together around a shared experience, which is food. And I would really lean on finding somebody from that world, right? Somebody from the hospitality business. And sometimes it's hard to ask people like, can you be my mentor? Cause I'm asked that a lot and, and it's tough. I don't always have time, but I think a, a, maybe a better approach might be, can I talk to you? And ask for advice, but in the course of that conversation, your ask should be, who do you know that I should talk to? Or who are some other people who might be worth reaching out to? And could you make a connection?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Because sometimes people really do want to help, but they don't have time. And sometimes it's just a matter of finding that right person at the right place, the right time, who has the time and the interest and the passion. And I think it's about having the conversations first before directly just saying, do you want to be my mentor? Eric, do you get, because I'm sure you get that a lot too, Eric.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  I do. And that's why I think putting it into a structure of either a formal advisor or board, I think helps people get their head around to what the expectations are. And I agree in the first, you know, always get a coffee date. And if you walk away from that coffee date being either both really inspired or they were able to push or challenge your thinking, then you know there's somebody that you want in your orbit.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Again, get clear on like where you're taking this business. And then when you reach out to individuals, you want to, you want to really bring, you know, recruit them onto your journey of like, hey, over the next five years, we are going to scale this to here. I need, you know, we need an advisor group of three people. We need somebody who really helped, who's been there before and understands, how do you scale a service multi-unit business like this? I need somebody who really understands finance and how do we best capitalize this business? And something you may want to consider about so you, you can scale this without always your equity into it is CPG. You're building a brand that could really build a CPG business. But if you had three people around you, a great finance person, somebody who's scaled this type of business before and a CPG person,

• 25:25Speaker 02

  you kind of recruit them together as a team with you and bring them onto your journey. That may really help that what the next three to five years looks like for you.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Aubrey Olasky, the brand, a company called Perren. Congrats. Good luck. It's awesome.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Nice, nice, nice.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  Thank you, Guy. It was such a pleasure.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Incredible. Great to meet you.

• 25:44Speaker 03

  You too. Thanks.

• 25:45Guy Raz?

  I love, I mean, I know you know this business because you work with Flower and Water and I in San Francisco and I just love, I love these businesses because they are not cutting corners. Like you can see how they're rolling those croissants and how they're laminating that dough and it's so much work and then they, and then it gets sold for a couple bucks and that's it.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  It's such a bespoke business and the passion and energy that you have to put into this and do it every day and the fact that they're doing it as a married couple with four kids.

• 26:14Guy Raz?

  It's unbelievable.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  I think I want her as my mentor.

• 26:17Guy Raz?

  Right, I know. She, she could really, and she will be clearly one day. She's going to be mentoring people once she's kind of off the hamster wheel a little bit. But man, I don't think there's a direct flight from Nashville to Reno. So that must be a pretty challenging commute.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  No, but if we're like, I think Peren has the potential to be a big brand and hopefully just somebody listening there who could, who could reach out and potentially help them on their journey because I think they've got real potential.

• 26:43Guy Raz?

  Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on How I Built This Lab.

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• 30:41Speaker 01

  Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Method Ollie Wellie co-founder Eric Ryan. Eric, let's take another call.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  All right, let's do it.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Hello, welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Eric Ryan. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 31:00Speaker 06

  Hi, my name is Maggie Girth and I'm from Chicago, Illinois. And I founded Props Luggage, which is a carry-on suitcase that has its own built-in leg system, so you no longer need a luggage rack when you travel.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  You basically pull out the legs and you've got your bag is its own luggage rack. You don't have to bend down to get your stuff. It's just right there.

• 31:26Speaker 06

  It's right there.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Maggie, it's great to have you on the show. You have been to How I Built the Summits in the past. In 2018 and 2019, you were at the summits.

• 31:36Speaker 06

  I was there at both summits.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  And you met Eric, yeah, at our How I Built the Summits, yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 06

  I did. I met you, Guy, and I met Eric. So this is extremely thrilling. And I will tell you, I had this idea over years of traveling with four daughters and messy hotel rooms. I thought about it for years. And a friend of mine invited me to join her at the summit. And so I went with this idea in my head and went again the next year. And I will say, after the second year, I said, okay, it's time for me to...

• 32:16Speaker 01

  I'm in.

• 32:16Speaker 06

  Yes, I did.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  I'm going to do this. And what were you doing before you started this business?

• 32:21Speaker 06

  I was in investment banking out of school.

• 32:26Speaker 06

  And after our first daughter was born, I decided to stay home. And so basically, I was, I was raising my girls. And when they got a little bit older, I decided to just go for it.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I love it. So you started, so you basically started to work on this idea, which now is a real thing. You've sent me one, so thank you for that. I have it, it's awesome. And it's a, you, you worked, I think you worked with a designer, right? To get, get everything right. Like, is he wanted the legs to come out? And it's not just a, I think you can, like, you can use it at the airport to put like a cup of coffee on it, or even your legs to rest on it if you want. Like, I don't think you can sit on it.

• 33:04Speaker 06

  No, but a lot of people, so originally, uh, my vision was to use it in hotel rooms. Because, you know, there's always one luggage rack. But when it was launched, what became even more popular was, um, its use in the airports for people who travel a lot for work or pleasure. You know, how often are we all stranded in the airport for hours? And, um, you know, you kind of, you set it up and you put your laptop on it and you've got your own workstation, or you put your meal. You know, you don't want to be juggling your meal on your lap.

• 33:45Speaker 06

  So it, it really, um, it, it developed a lot more popularity for use in the airports, which was great.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Tell me, and I think you're mainly selling them direct to consumer, but you are in some stores, I think, some boutiques, right?

• 34:00Speaker 06

  Yes, actually, um, we started out, this has all been self-funded.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 34:06Speaker 06

  Yes, wow. My husband has been huge support, um, so we work together. But, um, we started out direct and then we were lucky enough to be, uh, put into the in-motion stores in airports.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:25Speaker 06

  We've also, um, we just recently got into the container store.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 34:30Speaker 06

  Which is nice.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Maggie, very, just very briefly, how are sales doing? I mean, this is a tough, this is a tough category, right? There are some very, very big players and

• 34:39Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Um, and it is a relatively crowded category, which isn't a problem. But how, you know, you're a small player. How, so far, how, how, how's it been with sales?

• 34:50Speaker 06

  The first year was a little bit slow because it was all direct on our Instagram. So it was about 50,000 the first year. Then we started to gain a little momentum and now we're on probably this year about 250.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  That's helpful. All right. And your question for us before I bring in Eric?

• 35:13Speaker 06

  So my question is, do I stop the self-funding and just realize in order to really move this ahead aggressively, do I decide to take on investors or partner or bank loans?

• 35:29Speaker 01

  All right. Eric Ryan. Lots to ponder, lots to think about.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think at the heart of it, like that's a personal decision. And I've always heard a great expression of you can either go for control or a financial win, meaning if you want to just continue to have full control and really build this yourself, it's going to be a slower, longer build, but you can have control. If you want to really scale up, you're going to have to and have a bigger financial win, you're going to have to give up some control. And that's what is required when you bring in partners and advisors. So it really goes back to a very personal question of what do you want to do? What type of business do you want to build? There's no right or wrong answer here. I think you've done a great job of disrupting the category with what I call an attribute. But the way you think about attributes, benefits and experiences, I think the opportunity,

• 36:18Speaker 02

  if you brought in outside capital is how do you turn this into a brand and a product experience that's bigger than just the props on it? And whether it's like you're really building a smart suitcase, a smart way to travel. I might even drop the S and just call it prop. But I think you've found a way into the category and a point of differentiation. But for this to be really a long-term success, the props is going to have to be just one of the attributes of a smarter way to travel.

• 36:47Speaker 06

  Right.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And is this patented? Is your design patented?

• 36:51Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  It is, OK. So it's a patented design and it's really, right now, going to appeal to people who also have this same problem. The question is, can you broaden it out to people who don't have this problem? Like, some people just don't care. They're just going to throw their suitcase on the ground at the hotel or on the... There's two beds and they're just... They just need one. They're going to throw it on the other bed. You know, when I think of suitcases that I have at work, I mean, some of them have, you know, actually, I guess fewer of them now have the plugs because the airlines don't like that. But, you know, just the different pockets or the different compartments or the different ways that they allow you to organize clothing inside. There are other features, the hard case and the hard shell. The look, right?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I think a lot of what differentiates sort of the higher end, the Ramoas, from, you know, the others is they focus on the design, the look of it. You know, I think those are all things you want to think about, right? And have you had any interest from investors so far? Have you been approached by anybody who said, "Hey, you know, I think this is something I'd like to get involved with"?

• 37:53Speaker 06

  We have had a few, but nobody that we've moved forward with. One thing that I would love to ask both of you is, you know, my intent was never to just have a one product. You can't have a brand. So this was never my intent, just to have the one carry-on suitcase. I always... I have a plan in my head. I've had high demand for the next size from those who have the carry-on. They now want the larger case. But then the tariffs just hit, so things have been paused. But to that question, like, how important do you think it is to expand the line?

• 38:38Speaker 06

  You can't just have a company or a brand that has one product.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's really, really hard long term to build one product. I think you'd be in one category really well. I think the white space for you too, and some of those brands that Guy just mentioned that are really elevated in design and like Toomey, but they're at a very high price point. And you have a much more sophisticated customer and a younger customer that is traveling, you know, 20 year olds travel in ways that 20 year olds used not to travel. And so I think you could build, you know, elevate the design, you know, the prop feature is part of this overall more smart approach to baggage. But I think you gotta, you could ladder up, build a bigger brand that feels more elevated, but at a affordable price point. I think that that's the real white space opportunity. But yeah, it's got to be bigger than a product feature and it's got to be bigger than just one suitcase

• 39:27Speaker 02

  to build a successful company here.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I agree. And I also, I would also go back to your, to your original question about whether, whether to seek out, out help. I mean, I think that, look, as, as you know, being a former investment banker yourself, it's a tough environment now. It's a tough time to raise money in any CPG category. I think Eric, you can probably attest to that, although you probably don't have a problem because of your track record.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  It's always, it's always hard.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a tough environment now, right? People, money is tight because of uncertainty, right? Tariffs, the economy, what's going to happen? The bond market's scared. But that being said, I mean, you're in Chicago, right? There's a robust sort of network of, of founders and builders. I was just in Chicago a couple of weeks ago and met with some and it's an awesome, just an awesome hub of, of entrepreneurship. I mean, if you have conversations and you can start to have conversations around potential partners, I would really consider it, especially if you could find somebody who has some experience in travel or in hospitality, some, some, something connected to this space, brand building, who can help you sort of develop it. I, I think

• 40:36Speaker 01

  that it might be worth thinking about bringing somebody on if, if you can find it.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Right. Right. And to build on that, you don't have to make the decision to raise capital. You could make the decision just to go explore it. So Plan A could be to continue to bootstrap it and grow it organically. And then to Guy's point, go out there, really socialize and see if you find a partner that would be a great fit, that you're inspired by. And then you can make the decision whether you take the capital or not.

• 41:01Speaker 06

  Right. I would also be open to the idea and I would love your thoughts on just licensing the leg system idea to larger brands.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  I think it's a great thing to explore, for sure. Eric, what do you think, Eric?

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's free cash flow. So that's always a great, a great thing. Less likely to get knocked off than somebody trying to work around your patent if they're just able to access it. And I think it'll put pressure on you to build props into something bigger than just that feature if you're going to be able to license it to others. So, and same thing, like you don't have to make the choice to do it or not. You just make the choice to go explore it, see what opportunities come along, and then you can make the decision to execute a deal like that or not. But free cash flow for a founder like this all day long.

• 41:44Speaker 06

  Right.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Maggie, you're at the brand is called Props Luggage. Maggie, thank you so much for calling in. Thanks so much for coming to the summits and keep us posted.

• 41:52Speaker 06

  Thank you. So, I so appreciate both of you and I hope you have another summit.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  I hope so, too.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Great to meet you, Maggie.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  All right.

• 42:00Speaker 06

  Nice to meet you, too.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I do not, I can't remember the last time I checked a bag.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think checking a bag is a failure as a traveler. I think I fell in love with my wife when I did our first trip together and I saw how small her carry-on was.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Eric Ryan, brand builder extraordinaire. Eric, let's get back to it and take another call.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  All right, let's do it.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Eric Ryan. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 43:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, hi Guy, hi Eric. Thrilled to be here. I'm Matt Angorn calling from Scottsdale, Arizona. I am co-founder of Flitmitts 3-in-1 Adventure Gloves. Flitmitts switch or flip between a mitten, a fingerless glove, and sweatbands. They help you stay warm when you're cold and dry when you're hot.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  So, like sweatpants for your hand, basically? Is that what you're saying?

• 43:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, sweatbands.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Sweatbands, sweatbands.

• 44:01Speaker 07

  Yeah, so they wear as gloves.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  I was like, sweatpants?

• 44:03Speaker 07

  Yeah, they convert to mittens for like running. And then, yeah, they just slide them down and you're wearing the sweatbands. And they keep you dry or act as a hand towel when you're running.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is a flitmitt. It's like a glove that opens up and then it can, your fingers are free or it can go on your wrist. Tell me what, just before I ask you about the business, what are the use cases here?

• 44:26Speaker 07

  Yeah, so we initially created this for trail runners. It was kind of our original case. You'd go running on a cold morning, your hands would be freezing, but then very quickly your hands get sweaty, you're looking for a place to put your gloves, and then at the end of your run, you've got soggy gloves and cold hands. And so this actually transitions through the whole run. It keeps you warm in the beginning, it keeps you dry in the middle of your run, and then at the end of your run, you can just slide them back on and they keep your hands warm again.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that guy. I lived on the East Coast 10 years ago. I lived in Washington DC. I used to love those freezing cold mornings, like 18, 19 degrees to take runs in. I just run better in them. But your hands, it's torture, right? They're so cold. But then when you warm up, it's, obviously it's better. So that's where the idea came from? This is a problem you had?

• 45:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, this was a problem I had. I used to run around in the trails in New Jersey and I just, my hands were always, I always had cold hands. I would wear fingerless gloves inside. I would buy them by packs of 12 and lose them. And so the ability to always have them on your wrist when you want them and then just slide them back onto your hands and then I'm having a lot of other value too.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  So tell me about where you're selling the FlipMits now. Where, like, where can you get them?

• 45:38Speaker 07

  Sure. So primarily via our Shopify store, flipmits.com. We're also on Amazon and we're on QVC. We actually did a test run with QVC in January. That went fairly well. So those are the three primary places. We've gone out and visited Walmart. The real challenge there has been, we've gotten a lot of great feedback from, and interest from retailers, but they don't really know where to put our products. Is it for runners? Is it for cyclists? Is it for hiking? And so that's kind of one of the challenges I'm calling about.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  And tell me a little bit about sales. I mean, how are you doing so far? How are you doing this year?

• 46:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, so it's been a roller coaster chasing inventory like so many different companies that call in. But we've done really well. We've done a little over 600,000 in sales to date.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  That's over the course of your whole, your whole business?

• 46:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. And a half of that came in 2024. So we kind of, you know, started off with one color, two sizes. We scaled to four sizes and four colors. And then we started launching graphics like skeleton hands and rainbows and trying to make it more fun. And so, yeah, and then we launched heavyweights last year. And then we're launching sun gloves this summer for sun and sweat. And we've been doing events, going to running events, and the feedback's been great. We've had customers buy 10, 12, 12 times.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Is this design patented at all?

• 47:02Speaker 07

  We've got trademarks and copyrights, but very difficult to patent apparel.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Has anybody knocked you off yet?

• 47:08Speaker 07

  Not yet. Waiting for it. Worried.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Hopefully it doesn't happen. What question do you have or challenge you're facing?

• 47:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, I would love your advice on scaling beyond Shopify and Amazon, right? We really, we were in, I did some boutique stores running cycling in the beginning. They were excited, but they didn't really move. And it does really well when I can explain it to people. People just go, oh, I get it when I give them a demo. But the, but the moving it on, off the, off the shelves on their own has been difficult. We have improved the packaging. We've put the photos of the product on the packaging. But I do wonder if we needed to take it to another level. Just kind of curious, what kind of advice you would have for me on that?

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, first of all, like seeing this is like, why did nobody think of this before? It's pretty genius.

• 47:54Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  I think a couple of ways to think about it. So I heard your problem before of like in conversations with Walmart and where, where does it go in the store? And looking at your site, it's your point too. There's this, this consumer education and I always look for things that like hit that intersection of novel and familiar. And you've got a really, really novel, obviously approach to gloves. It takes, it takes some education. So I think for retail to work, you've got to be able to really put it into that space of familiarity. And possibly maybe the right way to do that is you create different versions of it, targeting different use occasions. So if you were to go into Walmart, so you've got a sport version that can live in the sports section. That's calling out specifically for runners. Maybe you've got one that goes in the hunting section. Maybe you've got a seasonal one that comes out when the winter gloves and sits in the winter gloves.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I like that.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  So that always says that familiarity of like, I'm buying gloves. Oh, and then the, the novelty of like, oh, this is a different type of glove.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  I love that idea of, of, of thinking about different ways. And, and, and you are doing some of that already, I think, Matt.

• 48:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. And I love that approach and you, and you totally nailed it, right? I've got hunters, cyclists, I have tattoo artists, people from all walks of life. Anytime your hands are cold and you want control, you have nurses that use them because you can wear them underneath rubber gloves. And so they are so adaptable. So I love that idea of packaging them for specific activities versus just doing infographic after infographic, which is kind of the approach I've had so far.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  And you could call it like the runner's glove or the hunter's glove. But also too, like you've, you've kind of created the world's most versatile glove. I feel, I feel like you need to kind of ladder this up to the world's best at, at something.

• 49:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, I go back and forth between the age old wisdom of like, find your tribe and grow your tribe and, and really try and, um, you know, grow with their needs versus this product that can go so many different ways. And, and I kind of look at like Crocs, I feel like as a similar example sometimes where it's kind of different. It's still a shoe, but it's different and, and trying to take what I can learn from that.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I wonder whether you could do more of a weightlifting glove that has like grips on it, you know? Something that is really designed for weights or for the, the bar, but, but gripped.

• 50:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. I love that idea. I've done, um, I've done leather prototype palms and I've tried to do the grip one. Um, we've, we've been trying to produce in North America and I haven't been able to do, find how to do the grip in North America. So if anybody's listening, call me, but, um, that can do that. But, um, yeah, I love that idea. Like we've, I've had rock climbers ask for like extra grading on the side for, um, like rock abrasion and things like that. And so that's absolutely where I'd love to go. And it's been chasing that inventory and having that, you know, we were sold out for almost all of January, um, and just trying to get it back in stock before, you know, the season warmed up was a, was a heart attack for myself and my partner.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Looking at, I was debating whether you should ladder up and build a brand above this flip, flip mitts is, I think you're most more like a flip flop than a croc. And flip mitts feels, it's very much a product brand. And I was debating in my head like, okay, should you go up and build a brand above and then flip mitts is your product brand? But I don't know what you ladder up to. And I think I would do the opposite. I would like ladder down of what you're talking about. Be hyper specialized. So build, build these hyper specialized use, uses, just like you said. And also licensing could be really, I mean, University of Michigan, flip mitts available in the stadium, you know, starting in late October. Um, and like, look for those, you know, uh, I think licensing also could be a great way,

• 51:34Speaker 02

  to, to open up some of these usage occasions, but I would go hyper specialized.

• 51:38Speaker 07

  I love that.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  And we've had some, some small businesses on this show that have done licensing deals with, with big schools. It's, it's possible to do. It's not as, as onerous as one might imagine. And that's a, that's a great idea.

• 51:51Speaker 07

  I love that. I do imagine it to be incredibly onerous, but I do think it's an amazing opportunity and I appreciate the encouragement.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  The brand is called FlipMits. Matt Enghorn, thanks for calling in. Congrats. Good luck.

• 52:02Speaker 07

  Thank you so much, Guy and Eric. Appreciate it.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Great to meet you.

• 52:05Speaker 07

  Likewise.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Are you a runner? Is that, are you a runner? I can't remember.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Only, only when chased.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  I should run more.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, it's okay. I just did a long run the other day and I jacked up my Achilles heel and now I can't run. So I gotta wait for five days for it to heal up.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Isn't over 50 fun?

• 52:28Speaker 01

  It's so fun. So fun. Oh my god.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  But I go to CrossFit. I work out a lot, but I don't know. Running isn't-

• 52:33Speaker 01

  That's good. That's very good. You can wear flip mitts next time.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  I know. It's kind of like when those things, like, why did nobody think of that before? Lot of inventions today.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  A lot of inventions. Cool, right? Eric, before I let you go, a quick question that I ask everyone who comes on the show, which is now with all of this experience, you know, as you've become a wise old man, what would you have said to you, you know, when you were 22, 23, starting method, 24, I can't, you were so young, when you started that brand out with Adam? If you go back and say, hey, I'm gonna give you a piece of advice. Here it is.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  It would have been my relationship to time. Be much more patient and don't be in such a rush, you know, building, you know, building strong foundations takes time in entrepreneurship. But also at the same time, you know, treat, treat your time as what it is, the most precious, scarce commodity that, that you have. And I think pacing as an entrepreneurship is one of the biggest challenges. And I think it's a theme we heard today. If you really get to the heart of a lot of what everybody was struggling with, whether I take capital, how fast do I grow? It's really about the right pacing of building a business.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  That's Eric Ryan, the man behind the brands, Method, Ollie Welly, and so many others. Eric, it's great, great having you on the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Always a pleasure, Guy. Thank you.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  And by the way, if you haven't heard Eric's original, How I Built This episode, you gotta go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 54:09Guy Raz?

  I read at one point, Eric, that to prove that this really was nontoxic, you actually drank it.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I was in London. You know, I love the British press. They're so skeptical. And she said, is it, you know, safe enough to drink? I was like, sure. So we both took a shot at the toilet bowl cleaner.

• 54:27Guy Raz?

  OK.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  And then I immediately text Adam. Finally he got back to me. I was like, hey, just drank the toilet bowl cleaner. I'm gonna be OK, right?

• 54:36Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected]

• 55:14Guy Raz?

  or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifert with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Neil Rausch. Our production staff also includes Chris Messini, Alex Chung, J.C. Howard, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Kerry Thompson, John Isabella, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.