Advice Line with Norma Kamali of Norma Kamali

Iconic fashion designer Norma Kamali joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early stage founders. Plus, Norma shares her take on balancing a strong creative vision with the financial realities of building a worldwide brand. First we meet Ahmed in the U. K,, who’s refining a narrative for his eyeglass store concept in hopes of attracting investors. Then Bob in Chicago, who wants to change how people view lunch with his fast casual soup restaurants. And Adreana in Sacramento, who’s wondering if outside investment is the best way to scale her inclusive activewear business. Thank you to the founders of Cambridge Spectacle Company, Sunny Bowls and the Love Her Shop for being part of the show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to Norma Kamali’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/c7309ac2-0a78-4055-befd-8d44fe35f85f/embed as told by Norma on the show in 2021. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch. You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2 a.m. kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan,

• 0:46Guy Raz?

  build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt. We get support from U.S. Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't.

• 1:32Guy Raz?

  Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems. But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned, money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back

• 2:16Guy Raz?

  on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer. For the first time ever,

• 3:00Guy Raz?

  new Delta SkyMiles Reserve American Express Card members can earn two Delta Comfort Round Trip flights for travel within the 48 contiguous US states, Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands. Plus, you can earn 50,000 bonus miles towards your next getaway. And who doesn't appreciate an elevated airport experience? Delta SkyMiles Reserve Card members get access to the Delta Sky Club, your pre-flight oasis to recharge, with 15 visits and four one-time guest passes each medallion year when flying Delta together. That's up to $950 in annual value. Value estimate based on $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits

• 3:45Guy Raz?

  or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. Make every trip feel more rewarding with the car that upgrades your travel. Apply today at delta.com/cardsocial. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Flights are fulfilled as flight certificates valid for Delta Comfort or Delta Maine to select domestic destinations. Book 21-plus days in advance. Up to $80 per person and taxes and fees apply. Other restrictions apply. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talk to on this show, because the best

• 4:27Guy Raz?

  ones obsess over things their customers will never see. Tiny details, invisible improvements, relentless iteration. And not because anyone's watching, but because it makes the product better. That's what the mobile brand does. It engineers fuel the same way great founders engineer their products. Mobile Supreme Plus Premium Gas helps keep engines three times cleaner, which can mean better performance and improved gas mileage. It's for people who care about what's under the hood, even if they never see it. Three times cleaner compared to mobile regular gas in port fuel-injected engines. Actual results may vary. Visit mobilefuels.com for details.

• 5:12Guy Raz?

  This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform, featuring email, SMS, reviews, and more. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at K-L-A-V-I-Y-O dot com. Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice,

• 5:57Guy Raz?

  give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is fashion designer, legendary fashion designer, Norma Kamali.

• 6:41Guy Raz?

  Norma, welcome back to the show.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  I'm happy to be back.

• 6:45Guy Raz?

  It's so great to have you back on the show. You were first on How I Built This in 2021. And of course, you told the story of how you built your hugely influential fashion business. And of course, if those of you listening have not yet heard that story, please check out our feed. We've just posted the original episode. And we'll also put a link in the description. It is such an amazing story. But basically, in the 60s, Norma was working as an airline clerk and then using her employee discount to fly to London and then buy up clothes, sort of secondhand clothes there, and then opened a store in New York to sell them. Eventually, started designing your own clothing. And you created all these iconic pieces,

• 7:26Guy Raz?

  Farrah Fawcett's red swimsuit, the sleeping bag jacket, and really built one of the first great American brands. And let me just say it again, Norma. You are a legend. Eight decades of life, and you are still actively running your brand out of New York City today.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yep. Yes, very actively and enjoying every minute of it. I feel privileged to have a creative life. I'm very lucky.

• 7:57Guy Raz?

  And total inspiration, Norma. You really are. We have a bunch of early-stage founders here, ready to jump on. But before they do, if you'll indulge me, I've got a couple of questions for you before we bring them on. So, you know, you really built your brand on designs that stood out, in part because they were so different. They were kind of weird at the time. But just because customers love a product, right? And they love and loved yours, it doesn't always mean that the business is profitable. There was a point in your journey where you were really hot in the New York fashion world, but you guys were having trouble paying the rent. I remember you telling us this story.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:39Guy Raz?

  How do you turn customer love and satisfaction and buzz around your brand into growth, into profitability?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot of creative people believe they're not good at business. And I believe that that's not true. I think it's something we've been fed to believe. And I think the more you can learn about business, and maybe it's by having really good mentors. I was very fortunate to have incredible advice throughout my career and learning as much as I could about how to look at where I needed help in the business, how I needed to evaluate sales versus productivity,

• 9:33Speaker 01

  and also how to maximize the opportunity of the attention you're getting from the press. And that's as important as the creative concept storytelling. Norma.

• 9:50Guy Raz?

  Your, you know, your brand was and is your vision, right? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs can identify with that, right? That feeling. But at a certain point, certainly in your industry, to become a global brand, you often have to partner with bigger companies, right? You worked with Walmart, you worked with, you did a lot of interesting things. So how do you protect your vision when you start to do things like, you know, work with partners, with bigger partners?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  That's the, that's the big challenge. And I still am the sole owner of my company, which tells you I really like to control the fit and the quality of the product. But I was copied a lot and I wasn't making money because other people were making money for my designs.

• 10:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  And when I knew I did a collection that I felt was strong, I partnered with Jones Apparel. And it was a huge success because I had the ability to use their manufacturing and distribution and sales with my designs and sort of storytelling. And the combination was incredibly profitable for everyone. By doing that, it gave me exposure and the ability to do many other things. And also go to sleep at night knowing I could pay the rent finally.

• 11:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I love it. All right, Norma, why don't we bring in our first caller?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Great.

• 11:33Guy Raz?

  And let's bring caller number one on to the show. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with me and Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business and we'll take it from there.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Well, hello. Lovely to meet you both. My name is Ahmed Ijas. I am calling from England in the United Kingdom and I am the founder of Cambridge Spectacle Company. We make beautiful glasses and we've started to do eye examinations as well now.

• 12:02Guy Raz?

  Amazing. Okay. Welcome to the show, Ahmed, and thank you for calling in. So you have a

• 12:07Guy Raz?

  is it like a, are you an optometrist? Do you do like eye exams and sell glasses?

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I am actually an optometrist by training. But when I started this brand, I actually quit my job as an optometrist and started focusing on designing glasses, designing prescription eyewear. Yeah. So we initially started with a sort of a distribution deal with a big company in the UK who were part of Walmart at the time as their opticians. And, you know, that was great. But we've moved into opening our own optometry practices now. So, you know, sort of similar to Warby Parker in the United States, that kind of brand.

• 12:49Guy Raz?

  I see. Okay. Now I'm starting to make sense. You're basically trying to model your business off of Warby Parker in the US, like basically high designs, high end quality designs, but at a lower price point.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So, you know, for me, Warby, when those guys, you know, did what they did, I was just sort of qualifying from university and I thought it was game changing. And I didn't quite understand why we didn't have something similar in the UK. And, you know, we weren't celebrating British eyewear. We know we've got Oakley and Ray-Ban as American companies. And there's a lot of Scandinavian companies out there. But I felt that there really needed to be a, you know, hopefully one day, a global British eyewear brand that dominates.

• 13:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And presumably Warby Parker doesn't operate. I think they only operate in the US, right?

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I did send them an email in 2015 and I said to them, to the customer service, I'd love to start this in the, in the UK, but I didn't hear back. So I thought, well, I better start this myself.

• 13:51Guy Raz?

  Nice. Well, I'm sure you heard our episode with Warby Parker with Neil

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Both of them, yeah.

• 13:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And amazing story. Okay, so what's the vision here? The vision presumably is to try and scale this thing.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so look, we're opening a second store in London in the next week or so. So, so we've just acquired a store there and we've acquired that customer database. And all the frames are going to be, you know, changed to Cambridge Spectacle Co. frames. And then we're in, we're in negotiations right now to, to open a third store in Birmingham. So the goal is three sites by, by the end of this year.

• 14:26Guy Raz?

  How are you, how are you financing all this?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Well, it's part of my question, but we, we're, we're sort of angel investor backed. So a friend of mine, he sort of said, how much do you need to get going? And I had no money, but I had a deal on the table with Asda opticians. I didn't tell them I had no money. And my friend, you know, I told him I needed a hundred and fifty thousand pounds to get going. And he fortunately said, I'll, I'll do you the full amount, Ahmed, because I know you and I trust you. So he, he kicked us off and then we did a little bit of crowdfunding as well via a European crowd equity platform.

• 15:02Guy Raz?

  I got a bunch of questions for you, but before I do that, I want to hear what your question is for us today.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. So look, I, I think, you know, that customer proposition is strong and, you know, customers seem to love our brand. But the, the question really is, how, how do we get that same kind of excitement around the brand across to investors? Because it's very difficult when you're in a pitch and you've got, you know, five, 10 minutes and they're seeing pitch after pitches as angels or VC for them to fall in love with your brand. So, you know, how, how are we really going to be able to translate that love and show them not just the financials? But hey, this is, this is going to be big, you know, customers love this and.

• 15:41Guy Raz?

  How do you get, how do you generate the buzz to, to attract investors? Just out of curiosity, what, what's your revenue right now?

• 15:48Speaker 02

  So we're doing about, in the store, about twenty thousand pounds to twenty five thousand pounds, about thirty to thirty five thousand dollars a month. That's in the first year.

• 15:57Guy Raz?

  That's great. Okay. So you're looking at three to three hundred fifty thousand, maybe four hundred thousand revenue this year. Let me bring in Norma Kamali. Norma, I have a lot of questions. You may have questions for Ahmed.

• 16:09Guy Raz?

  Go. Let's hear, let's hear your thoughts.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think the first question I have is.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  What makes you different other than your ambition to use your reputation

• 16:26Speaker 01

  and your history and and value? But it really takes a lot more to sell someone and it it has to be done maybe in a sentence or two and and no more. So what what is different about your product? Or your approach to marketing your product? That would make me want to invest in in your potential success?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, I think from a from a customer point of view, we always tell them how our designs are inspired by Cambridge and made by us rather than any designer label.

• 17:13Guy Raz?

  You say Cambridge like the the the town of Cambridge?

• 17:15Speaker 02

  The city, yeah.

• 17:16Guy Raz?

  The university, the sort of aura of that town?

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So I I lived there for a while and my brother who helped out is is an MBA from the university. And so we we will always, you know, discuss with the patients the fact that we we all the glasses are inspired by that city named after roads, places in that city. And that's what customers seem to be responding well to. And then also, we we give a portion of our profits to iResearch as well. But I think, Norma, this is where I I struggle that if I gave that across to an investor, it's probably not the thing that excites them. Or maybe it is, like, you know, it's maybe I'm just not explaining it and and they would be excited by that.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Well, I I must say, I now think, oh, this is interesting. It's a very authentic British brand that has the character of history and quality just by that reference. And the the idea of your contributing to the health and well being of iCare is very nice and very a sign of goodwill and on top of this classic British history that you're basing the brand on. So those two points definitely have more of my interest than.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  The idea of the name and you're opening different, you know, brick and mortar locations. First, knowing that that history and the reference definitely raises interest.

• 18:50Guy Raz?

  You know, it's interesting because I'm looking at your website here and your question is, how do we generate more buzz around the story? And the story is, if the story is Cambridge, like the university, the aura of that place, I'm not seeing enough of that. What Warby Parker did really well was, first of all, it was an invented name, right? And they they took two names from Jack Kerouac books and put them together. But then they named their glasses. They gave each pair of glasses, each design, like an interesting name. Like, is there a world where, could you, just looking at like the list of graduates of the University of Cambridge, I mean, could you call one like George the Fifth, you know, a pair of glasses called the Cornwall?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:31Guy Raz?

  Here you go, Pitt the Younger.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 19:34Guy Raz?

  There's all these people who, Nehru, Nehru went to Cambridge. Could you call a pair of the Nehrus? I mean, it just seems like there's a way to connect it more closely. Because for most people, Cambridge is the university, right? Maybe even make like a pair called like the Philbies, right? Because those spies went there. To me, if the story is about Britain, Cambridge, you got to lean into that more before you're going to really be able to get people excited about it.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think Guy, that's an incredible approach and idea. You know, Prince, I think, was named when we designed that after Prince Charles at the time. He's now King Charles because he went to the University of Cambridge. But you wouldn't really know that looking at it, right? So I think, yeah, we must do better at that. And if that's what generates the buzz, and as Norma says, if you are excited by the fact that it's linked so heavily to Cambridge, then that's a great idea.

• 20:32Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Norma, the other thing I'm wondering about is, like in fashion, right? The trick is to get the cool kids to wear your stuff. Like, the other thing Warby Parker did is, they found the cool kids who are frugal. Who didn't have money but could wear their glasses.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 20:50Guy Raz?

  That's those the people they got those glasses on, right? Nor normally, I mean, it's the same in fashion, right?

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been thinking from the beginning of the conversation. Well, what's the demographic? We know if you have a great price, you can have a younger demographic. And I think having some sort of an interaction with the clients to take pictures of themselves, put it on social media, wearing your glasses. And also, how how many things can you do with those glasses? They can obviously be prescription. They can I use mine for my computer where I have a soft tint. But I also have sunglass versions of my prescription.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  So I think having, you know, really rolling out all the possibilities and looking at marketing it through actual evolution of your client base.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think I think that's that's a good idea. I mean, when we when we started the brand, we had to think about the the audience and, you know, older, young. And whilst we knew older people would buy very focals and bifocals and they would be ultimately more expensive and more more profitable. We decided that, well, if you build a brand for younger people, the older people will come. But if you build a brand for older people, the younger people won't come to it. Right? So so so, yeah, I think I think we do need to go back to to making sure that we get the younger people into to promote the brand, as you say, Warby did, yeah, which would which would be a great idea.

• 22:25Guy Raz?

  You know, there's this an episode of the show we did, maybe a year or two ago, on Mod Pizza. And actually, the founders were on the advice line a couple of months ago. And what's cool, you should listen to that episode, because their first business that they started was called Seattle Coffee Company. And they started it in a kiosk at Covent Garden. And they saw what was happening with Starbucks in the US at the time. And this was in the 90s. They saw Starbucks was growing so fast, they decided to replicate that model in the UK. There were two Americans, Ali and Scott Svensson. And they very quickly found investors to scale Seattle Coffee Company and just build, I think they built like 50 locations across the UK in a just a matter of a few years.

• 23:10Guy Raz?

  And then, of course, they Starbucks came in and bought it. And converted the mall to Starbucks, which was a great outcome for everybody. To me, there's a world where something like that could happen, you know, where a world where Warby Parker decides to go to the UK. You know, but but to get that kind of money and to build that scale quickly. Back to your question, you've got to just get your story down because because you have all the the fundamentals, the foundation there. It's just now really chiseling away and getting it right.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, look, going to 50 stores is, you know, my ambition is to get to 100 stores. And if Warby Parker or someone comes along, we'd be we'd be happy to talk at that point. We have actually spoken to a big British VC here in in the UK, and they have said that get to five stores. And we will look at backing you to get to 20 with, you know, a few million pounds. So but we had a connection to that investor at that VC firm. So he's been great and he's been monitoring our progress. But it's just making sure that the other VCs do follow on in that round as well. And having that kind of growth story that Warby had in America.

• 24:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah, it's awesome. Awesome idea. I'm Eddie Jazz. Thanks so much. The brand is called Cambridge Spectacle. Good luck.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 24:30Guy Raz?

  Good luck to you.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Nice to meet you both. Thank you. Thanks so much for the advice.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 24:35Guy Raz?

  I mean, he's got Cromwell's. I'm looking at this list. He's got the the Nehru's.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  So much fun.

• 24:42Guy Raz?

  Wallpools.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:44Guy Raz?

  He just has the name after people who have been long dead.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  I think he has to focus on the story and creating a buzz before he opens more stores. I think getting really grounding that message, true British character and fun.

• 25:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and I mean, the thing about the UK is that it's the total addressable market there is still significant, right? Population 65 million. It's a bit, I mean, it's a you can build a huge brand just in the UK.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:18Guy Raz?

  Not you can't do that in every European country. It's not easy to do that in like, you know, Liechtenstein. But you could do that in the UK.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:28Guy Raz?

  Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 25:54Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is fashion designer Norma Kamali. Norma, what do you say? Should we take another call?

• 26:03Speaker 01

  I think so. Lots of fun.

• 26:05Guy Raz?

  Hello, caller. Please join us. Welcome to The Advice Line. You are on with me. Norma Kamali, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just very briefly about your business.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  I'm Bob Wolka from Chicago, big fan of the show. Sunny Bowls, which I'm the founder of, is a new category in the fast casual restaurant industry where soup is the star of the menu. Our goal is to become the sweet green of soup.

• 26:32Guy Raz?

  I love it. Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in, the sweet green of soup. That's very clear. I know exactly, I can already imagine exactly what you're trying to do. So you've got one shop in Chicago right now?

• 26:45Speaker 03

  We have two, one at the Merchandise Mart and one at Northwestern Hospital.

• 26:49Guy Raz?

  And when did you start this? When did you launch this brand?

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Well, I started it when COVID was still a thing, toward the end of it. And I'm a contrarian and just believe that if I started when all the restaurants were closing and I could build brand and start to learn a business that I didn't know, that's what I did.

• 27:08Guy Raz?

  I love it. Were you in food at the time? I mean, was that your background?

• 27:13Speaker 03

  My whole career was in real estate and I had this idea when I was in my 20s. And I finally decided to open it when I was 58.

• 27:23Guy Raz?

  I love it. So really, starting from scratch at 58, we just did a great episode about Lily's Chocolates and Cynthia Tice was 57 when she started that brand. So you opened the first location, you've got two now, and it's soup, basically. That's what you tell?

• 27:40Speaker 03

  So soup is the star. So if you picture an ice cream store, but instead of ice cream, we have 10 soups that were actually designed by a James Beard Award-winning chef.

• 27:51Guy Raz?

  Nice.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  And you pair it, or you can pair it with a sandwich or one of our salads. And in lieu of cold soup, we've designed a unique line of smoothie bowls, which actually have an ice cream-like texture but are healthy. It's like eating a healthy ice cream, and that's designed for the summer months.

• 28:11Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. And what's your question for us?

• 28:16Speaker 03

  So my question is that, so people love, they crave our soup after they try us, and we have a 4.9 star rating on Google. But there is a resistance to getting, not the first adopters, but people that, when they think of going to lunch, they think of Mexican, they think of hamburgers, they think of a salad, they don't think of soup. And the other thing is, when you're competing against brands that are already well-known, that we are not top of mind. And so my question is, how do we continue to acquire new customers?

• 28:54Guy Raz?

  How do you break through, right?

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:56Guy Raz?

  All right. Norma, thoughts for Bob? Questions for Bob?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  The first thing I'm thinking is, what is the value added? Is there nutritional value? Do you have information about the ingredients? Is it something that's efficient for, especially for women or men who are working out and they want to keep their...

• 29:24Guy Raz?

  Protein.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, high protein and really low carbs. I love soup.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  But I always, I want to know the value of the calories I'm eating. What will the takeaway be?

• 29:41Speaker 03

  So, just to give you an idea, we had one customer who went to their dietitian and said, "You can eat everything in the store." Um, we actually have one soup that's a wellness soup. But all, all of our soups are gluten-free, dairy-free, with a lot of vegan options. We have 10 soups, five of them are meat, four chicken, and one delicious chili. Um, and then five that are vegetarian. So they're, I mean, we put, the reason I said Sweet Green is because I do look at us as in the healthy, fast, casual sector.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  The nutrition, I think, is everything, and I think really promoting, so many people take supplements for good health, and if they know that in the soup, they're going to get that nutrition, um, and have a tasty kind of lunch at the same time, that's just a bonus.

• 30:38Guy Raz?

  Bob, I'm curious, your, your question is, how do I get people to think of soup as a meal? And I imagine that really it's lunch, the lunchtime crowd.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 30:49Guy Raz?

  That you want to focus on. And I'm looking at your website, very nice, I love the graphics and the drawings and designs. But there's two things I don't see here. I don't see ingredients, which I think would be really great to put on there, just, you know, because I'm assuming there's clean, simple ingredients, you're using vegetables and broths. The second thing is, is there a world, and these are, and you know this as a, as a guy who's been around in business for a long time, sometimes a slogan, or a, or a mantra, or a mission statement can be transformational when everyone can gather around a shared, common definition of what you're doing. And I, I wonder if there's a world where you put something under Sunny Bowls instead

• 31:30Guy Raz?

  of superfood that says, you know, "A new way to lunch," or "A new way to think about," yeah, your, your meal.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  One of the things we're trying to do also, like on our Instagram, is have three kind of pillars. One, healthy, two, delicious, and three, we're trying to create kind of a humorous brand.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  To get people to connect. So, you know, I think of GEICO and doing things that get people to wanna view us and so forth.

• 32:03Guy Raz?

  To me, it seems like the opportunity is in a breakthrough product, like, or a breakthrough delivery mechanism, where people start to talk about one thing that you're doing that then brings other people in. So here's my idea. Norma, I wanna, I wanna get your sense. Give me real feedback. Don't just say, I love the idea. Because if it's a stupid idea, tell me it's a stupid idea. But you know how, how people walk, how people consume coffee today, right? They get a cup of coffee at Starbucks and they walk down the street with it. They're, they're drinking the Starbucks coffee. What if there was like, a puree soup, like a sippin' soup, that you serve in like a to-go coffee cup with your logo on it and

• 32:47Guy Raz?

  you kind of market it as a grab and go?

• 32:50Speaker 03

  Well, it's funny, because one of the ideas I've had for the store is, you know, when Panera, you have the push for the coffee, but instead of coffee, we have different bone broth.

• 33:00Guy Raz?

  Oh, yes.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  So you drink that as your...

• 33:03Guy Raz?

  Are you doing that?

• 33:04Speaker 03

  My, my direct, my operations person is fighting me on it.

• 33:08Guy Raz?

  But you haven't started doing that yet?

• 33:10Speaker 03

  No, we have not started doing that.

• 33:11Guy Raz?

  Bone broth, Norma, bone broth. Bone broth is no collagen. It's got, it's a hot thing. People love bone broth.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I, there was a, there's a brand in the US, in New York, that did a very successful bone broth presentation. However, in the summer months, they fell apart. And they, they couldn't carry it, as busy as they were in the winter. But I think the idea of having a cup that really says, I am drinking soup, and it's from this place, and, and that it's bold and beautiful. I love that idea.

• 33:57Guy Raz?

  Uh, yeah. I mean, that, you know, I think about, the thing that Norma talked about with protein, to me, I, we hear it time and again. Protein is where this is going. Everybody is building protein, not everybody, but lots of people are building protein brands. And I, and Norma, you, you've written about this. You are, by the way, Bob, Norma is one of the foremost experts, really, truly experts on aging nutrition America. And Norma, you, you're on this protein thing, right? This is a big part of you, of how you, and it's not like you're eating steaks and chops every night, but, but it's, it's a quality protein.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Right. Protein, I think, is really looked at now very carefully in building strength, muscle mass. And for me, it's very hard to get that protein in because I don't eat meat. But if I can get protein in any way, I'll have soup and vegetables and anything else, protein powders that can even be added to the soups. I think there's so much opportunity there.

• 35:08Guy Raz?

  I think that there's one, one other idea I have for you, one other slogan. Your grandmother was right. Something like that.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  We have a Bobby's Chicken Soup.

• 35:19Guy Raz?

  Perfect. Or maybe under there, you say, your grandmother was right.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 35:22Guy Raz?

  Right? Cause soup, nourishing, nutritious, filled with vitamins, you know, it's some, some way to get across the idea that you're in one quick, efficient delivery mechanism, you're getting pretty much everything you need for that meal.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:43Guy Raz?

  Bob, I'm gonna come to Chicago, once your new slogan is, gets out and says, new way to eat lunch, I'm gonna say, it's me, Bob. And I'm, and I want my bowl of chili.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  I, you're, you're more than welcome. Love to have you.

• 35:56Guy Raz?

  All right. Bob will cough sunny bowls. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Lots of luck, Bob. Good luck.

• 36:02Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 36:03Guy Raz?

  I mean, so, so you don't do bone broth, right? Because you're, you're vegetarian.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  I have started bone broth, but I, there are other broths that are vegetable broths. And some, I'm just started eating chicken. I have to say, it's been a struggle.

• 36:19Guy Raz?

  It's just because it's gross to you?

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, as long as it's not recognizable, there's sort of kebabs and things like that that I can deal with.

• 36:28Guy Raz?

  But I, I mean, as you know, I eat meat, but I love tofu. I think tofu is a great protein source.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:33Guy Raz?

  Beans, great protein source.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. That's, for me, it's probably where I get most of my protein.

• 36:41Guy Raz?

  Norma, I, I wish people listening could see you right now. Because I'm, as you know, I'm 50. You're my model. I want to be you. That's what I want to be. I, I mean, you're, you, you're physically fit, you're energetic, you're beautiful, you're just, you've got all these incredible energy ideas. I mean, how, how do we get there? What's the fountain of youth? What's the secret?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I think, you know, in the, the world we live in now, there's so much really good information on healthy lifestyle. And the ability to, to change habits to more positive, proactive, aging with power attitudes. And learning something new every day and really keep moving. All of that is where everybody is going. And you're an example of

• 37:35Guy Raz?

  No, I'm not.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  what that lets you are.

• 37:38Guy Raz?

  You are, but, but how do you stay? I mean, I think a big part of it, Norma, isn't just what you eat and your exercise, but your outlook. How do you? I mean, I think part of it's just, you're just wired that way. You're just a positive. You're wired that way, but it's a practice too, right?

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, I think so. And one of the things that I realize is, and that was pointed out to me by Marty.

• 38:04Guy Raz?

  Marty's your partner.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Yes, and so he says, you know, you wake up every morning, no matter how bad the day before was, as if everything is okay. And I look at it as, well, I have a new start. I have a new chance to try it again and not sort of hang in the dreary feeling of the day before. And I think that that's important to really clean the slate, take another look at it and give it another shot.

• 38:42Guy Raz?

  Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

• 39:02Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Norma Kamali. So, Norma, let's get right back into it and take another call.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  I'm looking forward to, yes.

• 39:14Guy Raz?

  Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself. Tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Hi there, Norma. Hi there, Guy. My name is Adriana Alvarez. I'm calling from Sacramento, California. I am the owner and the founder of LoveHerShop.com. We are an athleisure brand and we are best known for our leggings. We do bring affordable products to the market, high-quality products that women would typically want to see at a better price.

• 39:48Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in. So Adriana, tell us a little bit more about their, it's activewear apparel. Like stuff you'd wear to workout, basically?

• 39:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely. It's all workout apparel and all of our products are designed and engineered in-house by our all-woman team. And these leggings, they came about to the market after I had an experience with a pair of leggings that were gifted to me that were from a very well-known brand. They were very expensive. They were over a hundred dollars a pair. And after I used them, I realized that they actually didn't work for me. And I didn't know if they didn't work for me because, I mean, so many women use this particular brand. But then I started realizing when I went back to the group of women and moms that I was working out with, a lot of them said the same thing. So it turns out that, you know, moms or women that have curves,

• 40:44Speaker 04

  women that have different body types, we do need something that holds us in a little bit better, that kind of accentuates our curves. And also, a lot of the moms that I was working out with were not willing to pay a hundred dollars for a pair of leggings.

• 40:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Wow, it's so cool. So, and so it's not like quote unquote sort of plus-size, is designed for all body types, essentially?

• 41:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely all body types, but these definitely are leggings that you would work out in. For example, we get a lot of the feedback from our customers stating that they love that our leggings stay in place during workouts that require a lot of jumping, jump squats. Also, women have ran marathons in our leggings. And one of the biggest things I think we get is the way that they feel on their body is more of a shapewear effect, but they do look amazing and they kind of lift and tone and they kind of suck you in.

• 41:39Guy Raz?

  Wow. And I'm looking at your website now and it's like 35 bucks for a pair of leggings. I think, you know, just to name a brand, we've had the founder of Lululemon on the show a few years ago, Chip Wilson. He's not involved anymore, but they're like a hundred bucks for a pair of Lululemons. And this is a very competitive space that you've gotten into, athleisure wear. Really hard for one person to start it on their own. Are you bootstrapping this thing?

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I started this business after, it actually started as a side hustle, but during COVID, I worked for the Coca-Cola company and during COVID, Coca-Cola decided to kill off a brand that I was helping manage. And at that point, I decided to take my severance package and Injected a hundred percent in my own business and first year of sales. This is when I was still running it out of my house. I did over a million dollars in sales.

• 42:34Guy Raz?

  Wow. And that was purely by doing like social media ads and stuff like that?

• 42:38Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, ads. I've never paid for an influencer to speak about our brand. Our customers are influencers. Um, I've kind of always been an authentic person where I don't want somebody to sell me something because they're being paid to be, you know, out there selling it. So, um, I think what has made us very successful is a lot of like moms have power, man. Moms will share with their social media groups and, um, that's kind of how we took off.

• 43:05Guy Raz?

  That's awesome. And what's your question for us today?

• 43:08Speaker 04

  So my question is, we're currently like in a, at an expansion stage. We've been growing and we've been so blessed with the growth. However, um, we are looking, I don't know if it's right now is a good time for us to look for outside investors to bring into their business so that we can say yes to a lot of the, um, things that we have currently been saying no to just because we don't have the staff, um, or we don't have the expertise in, in those areas.

• 43:32Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. Norma, wow, right up your alley. We're talking about an apparel brand here. Um, and, and Adriana is doing something different. It's, it's a lower price point. It's, you know, really designed to accentuate curves. She's bootstrapped this thing. You have, have bootstrapped your business and now you're a hundred percent owner of it. First of all, questions for, for Adriana?

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, your website looks fantastic.

• 44:03Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  The mom's focus, very specialized. Everything looks great. I love that you have a huge marketplace to, to reach out to. Nothing better than moms who have had babies. They want to feel good. They always want to work out. They want to feel held in. I commend you for really being very smart about what you decided to put your severance money in, and that was a good idea. I think the next step is usually the tough one because you have to make big decisions. Where are you going to get additional funding? I think.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  There are choices you have, and I think friends and family are always a good step. People that are your customers could also be good investors. I think before you jump into a relationship where they take a part of your business or a percentage of what you're doing, I think you're still identifying who you are and building that. And I think you have a little ways to go as far as investment in fabric and cost of goods. Where do you make the, where do you make them?

• 45:24Speaker 04

  We do make it all overseas. We have five different manufacturers, five different cut and sews. But we do actually have our own. We source our material and then we have our material sent to our cut and sews. Just so that, because we're very specific on the material we're using.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  And is the distribution other than your website?

• 45:44Speaker 04

  No, not at all. We started as really just doing pop up shops. And when we pivoted over to online sales, that's when the business and the focus really took us there, so we couldn't pivot back, just because we're doing so much online sales.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what about sales on TikTok or Instagram or?

• 46:03Speaker 04

  We do not sell on TikTok. We have an Instagram page, but we do not sell directly on Instagram either.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  I would try it. I would try it. We do very well. I, I think it's a, it's a very big opportunity. Learn a little bit more about it because it opens up another, it's like having another store.

• 46:24Speaker 04

  I see.

• 46:26Guy Raz?

  Adriana, are you specifically targeting moms or, or, or women who are mom ages?

• 46:35Speaker 04

  Um, it is women that are mom ages because we do have a lot of customers uh that are not moms, but are like, we get a lot of college customers too.

• 46:45Guy Raz?

  Between like 20 and 40.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely. Um, I would say it's between 25 and 45 is our, our demographic, our sweet spot.

• 46:53Guy Raz?

  Uh, you know, we, we did a, an episode on 21 Seeds Tequila recently and that, the, what differentiated that brand was basically it was, it was, it was tequila for moms, you know, or, or, or book club. It was, and, and people were making tequila for frat boys and, you know, men sipping tequila. Nobody was making, I mean, very few people were focusing on, on moms. And I, I love this idea because if you look, and I just looked at this, if you look at the spending power of women in the United States between 25 and 45, it's like five to 15 trillion dollars a year. It's a massive amount of money, you know, in terms of what they spend, not obviously on athleisure wear, just everything, you know, overall, but it's a huge opportunity. And there's a, a clear thesis here, which I really love.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's very impressive. And I think, um, there are a lot of mom bloggers too, that are so good and they really have a great audience. And you might want to invite some of them to be a part of your world, you know? I, I think doing collaborations now would be a good idea for you. And I think the bloggers are all so good. They tell their stories about being mothers and how they feel about their bodies and, and what's going on in their lives. And I think bringing in that conversation and making

• 48:18Speaker 01

  your website also a place where people go for information, just to bring, populate it more, would be, I think, a lot of fun.

• 48:27Speaker 04

  I love that idea.

• 48:29Guy Raz?

  Adriana, what do you, I mean, in terms of raising money, what, what, obviously it would enable you to scale, but just roughly, what are you estimating your revenue to be this year?

• 48:41Speaker 04

  Our revenue right now, we're targeted at being, we're ending the year at $2 million in sales.

• 48:45Guy Raz?

  Awesome, amazing.

• 48:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the key points that we would need the capital for that we haven't done, but we want to go into is wholesale distribution, expanding and creating a petite line and more sizes, like plus sizes.

• 49:00Guy Raz?

  So, so there's an argument to be made, right? That, that having outside capital will help you get there. People are going to give you different, different advice, right? Some people are going to say, hang on as long as possible, because the longer you can hold on and scale it on your own, the greater the value and the more you can retain. That being said, you know, if you can find the right partner who has wholesale apparel experience, you know, maybe it's a factory, maybe they become a co-investor. That's where I, I think it starts to make sense to really explore it. If it's just a money play, if it's just about finding somebody with, you know, extra cash,

• 49:40Guy Raz?

  but without the expertise, I would say, no way, you know, focus on building the business on your own. But if you can find a really experienced strategic investor who knows how to get in to wholesale, who's done it, then it makes sense to me. And, and, I mean, I, to me, it seems like that's really what you're, what you want to look for, and that's not easy, that's going to take some time.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I want to add, be very careful about entering the wholesale distribution network.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  First of all, one of my questions is costing and making sure that you're meeting your margins because you are selling through your own website. I'm sure you have a cushion there.

• 50:31Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  But once you get into wholesale.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  There are going to be all kinds of questions, wanting discounts, wanting all kinds of promotional money. You're in their hands. They are also buying other brands who compete with you, and you lose the control you have right now. So I would look at more and more opportunities where you have the control, you have the profit margin, especially if you make a mistake, especially if something happens with a fabric you bought, or something goes wrong. You have a cushion because of the margin. But before you go into wholesale, take a serious, I would be happy to, if you wanted to reach out to me, I'd be happy

• 51:20Speaker 01

  to walk you through that because it's very different. And it doesn't mean you can't do it. It's just being very sure about every, expanding out in your world first, to take every opportunity. But I love it. I'm really impressed. I really am. I know you're going to be successful. I'm positive. Thank you.

• 51:46Guy Raz?

  Adriana, congrats. Adriana Alvarez, love her shop. Good luck.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Congratulations.

• 51:54Guy Raz?

  Norma, before I let you go, one last question, which I ask everybody who's been, who's come back on as a mentor, which is, if you were to like, travel back in time to the Norma in the 1960s, Norma Kamali in the 1960s, and you could say, Norma, I'm coming from 2024 with a piece of advice, something I want you to know, what's something that you would want her to know about business?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I have to say, I really benefited from my mistakes and learning and getting advice from people who really helped me along the way. And we demonstrated that, you demonstrated. I am so impressed with your advice. And you, of course, are an expert on entrepreneurs. And every bit of advice you gave today was stunning. It was amazing.

• 52:52Guy Raz?

  Thank you.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  So you deserve the reputation you have. You earned it. This is such a generous. Venture for you to take. And I just love you and I'm so proud to know you. You're really an extraordinary man.

• 53:08Guy Raz?

  Both blush and cry, Norma. At the same time. Well, you're the best. You know, you're the best and I hope to come see you in New York soon.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  We'll see you soon. Hope so.

• 53:18Guy Raz?

  That is the iconic fashion designer Norma Kamali. And by the way, if you haven't heard Norma's original, How I Built This, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Well, I started to make some things and I would put them in the store to see how they would do. And they would do really well. And so the majority of the stocks slowly became my designs. And I had a full page in Vogue and I had a good sized page in Bazaar. And that was beyond belief because I thought, somebody is going to find me out. I don't know what I'm doing. And I have a full page in Vogue and Bazaar. This is nuts. Like, I don't have a clue.

• 54:19Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with. And hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298

• 55:02Guy Raz?

  and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music. Composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Chris Messini, Carla Estevez, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Devin Schwartz, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.