Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Advice Line with Chris Ruder of Spikeball About this episode Spikeball founder and CEO Chris Ruder joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders. Plus, Chris shares an early-days strategy that ended up revealing surprising intel about his core customers.
First we meet Jimmy in California, who’s wondering how to find passionate managers as he scales his chain of parkour gyms. Then Cindy in Massachusetts, who’s looking to expand her running brand beyond its niche with a new product. And Nigel in New York, who’s poising himself for a comeback after his Rockaway Beach surf shop went under last year.
Thank you to the founders of Freedom in Motion Gym, Pen and Paces, and Station RBNY Surf Shop for being a part of our show.
If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.
And be sure to listen to Spikeball’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/5647ea96-2d6d-4abd-b6f7-c05ed8b6ed0b/embed as told by Chris on the show in 2023.
This episode was produced by Sam Paulson, who also composed the music. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch.
You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 10,375 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Guy Raz? Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2 a.m. kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan,
0:46 Guy Raz? build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt. We get support from U.S. Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't.
1:32 Guy Raz? Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems. But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned, money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back
2:16 Guy Raz? on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer. For the first time ever,
3:00 Guy Raz? new Delta SkyMiles Reserve American Express Card members can earn two Delta Comfort Round Trip flights for travel within the 48 contiguous US states, Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands. Plus, you can earn 50,000 bonus miles towards your next getaway. And who doesn't appreciate an elevated airport experience? Delta SkyMiles Reserve Card members get access to the Delta Sky Club, your pre-flight oasis to recharge, with 15 visits and four one-time guest passes each medallion year when flying Delta together. That's up to $950 in annual value. Value estimate based on $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits
3:45 Guy Raz? or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. Make every trip feel more rewarding with the car that upgrades your travel. Apply today at delta.com/cardsocial. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Flights are fulfilled as flight certificates valid for Delta Comfort or Delta Maine to select domestic destinations. Book 21-plus days in advance. Up to $80 per person and taxes and fees apply. Other restrictions apply. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talked to on this show, because the best
4:27 Guy Raz? ones obsess over things their customers will never see. Tiny details, invisible improvements, relentless iteration. And not because anyone's watching, but because it makes the product better. That's what the mobile brand does. It engineers fuel the same way great founders engineer their products. Mobile Supreme Plus Premium Gas helps keep engines three times cleaner, which can mean better performance and improved gas mileage. It's for people who care about what's under the hood, even if they never see it. Three times cleaner compared to mobile regular gas in port fuel-injected engines. Actual results may vary. Visit mobilefuels.com for details.
5:11 Guy Raz? This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform, featuring email, SMS, reviews, and more. This Black Friday/Cyber Monday, make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at K-L-A-V-I-Y-O dot com slash B-F-C-M.
5:43 Guy Raz? Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected] . And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.
6:27 Guy Raz? It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Chris Ruder, the founder and CEO of Spikeball. Chris, welcome back to the show.
6:46 Speaker 01 Thanks so much. Happy to be here.
6:49 Guy Raz? Chris, you were first on How I Built This back in 2023, and you told us all about how you turned Spikeball into a brand and how you helped turn the sport of round net into a professional sport. And by the way, if you haven't heard that episode with Chris and Spikeball, we'll put a link in the show description. And I guess we should explain to people who haven't heard the episode that Spikeball is basically-- and you guys listening have seen it. If you're at the beach, or at a lake, or something in a park, it's basically four people standing around what looks like a little trampoline and spiking a ball into that trampoline. And it's like, sort of, how do you describe it? It's like volleyball meets--
7:28 Speaker 01 The one line I like to use is, "If volleyball and foursquare had a baby."
7:32 Guy Raz? Oh, yeah. That's it.
7:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's essentially identical to two-on-two volleyball. Rather than hitting a ball over the net, you're spiking a ball off a net that looks a lot like a trampoline.
7:43 Guy Raz? Chris, you painstakingly built this brand into a mainstream game, starting with like PE teachers, ultimate frisbee players, Christian youth groups. You weren't connected to any of these groups. You just found that that's where the product was resonating. How did that happen? And when that happened, how did you lean into those groups?
8:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. You know, when the first few years of the business, you could only buy Spikeball on Spikeball.com.
8:13 Guy Raz? Right.
8:14 Speaker 01 We had the benefit of, I was able to communicate literally with 100% of our customers. I could email them and ask questions. And nearly every single customer I replied saying, "Hey, thanks for buying Spikeball. I'm gonna mail it tonight or tomorrow. It should show up in a few days." "By the way, if you don't mind me asking, how did you hear about it?" And that's where I heard a lot of people said, "Oh, I'm a PE teacher and I'm always looking for new games." And new games are ways to engage kids that normally don't engage. Or I'd hear from people saying, "Oh, I was at an ultimate tournament and I saw some people playing there." Or, "I'm a camp director at a Christian camp," or something along those lines.
8:55 Speaker 01 But I asked the question enough times over the years where I was able to identify these themes in these buckets. You know, and I also thought that, you know, when I launched it, I was like, "Yeah, volleyball players are gonna love this game." And that was just what I thought. They wound up hating it.
9:11 Speaker 01 But it was these groups that I never would have thought of in a million years that loved it. And once I did identify those, then I started, you know, getting to know them. Some of them, I'd say, "Hey, would you mind, can we get on a call?" Like, you know, "I've never heard of this thing called Young Life. Like, what is it and can I learn from you?" And, "Oh, by the way, do you have any other friends in that community that I can maybe send a free set or two to?" So that free product was really critical in the early days of spreading the word.
9:39 Guy Raz? Yeah. And Young Life is a massive Christian youth group, which, again, you weren't involved with it. It's not like something you came... It was just, it just kinda came to you. I know that, since we've talked, and actually around the time we talked, you were introducing new products like paddles, which I think are interchangeable with pickleball, right? There are paddles that you can use to play Spikeball, but you can also use them to play pickleball.
10:01 Speaker 01 They're designed for more casual play. Yeah, they're not like, if you're a hardcore pickleball player, you're going to get a real paddle, of course. But yeah, they're very versatile. And you know, I was just at one of our tournaments this last weekend and watched some of our top players ever just kind of playing off on the side with paddles and laughing and diving. And we're just trying to find new fun ways to use our existing stuff.
10:22 Guy Raz? Yeah. Chris, I think it's probably time that we take in our first call. What do you think?
10:28 Speaker 01 Let's do it.
10:28 Guy Raz? Let's do it. Okay. Hello, caller. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a tiny bit about your business.
10:37 Speaker 02 Hi, Chris and Guy. My name is Jimmy Davidson. I'm calling in from Riverside in Southern California. I'm the founder of Freedom in Motion. We're a chain of parkour gyms where we teach kids, teens, and adults the sport of parkour here in our indoor obstacle course gyms.
10:52 Guy Raz? Wow, parkour, like people dancing off walls and jumping and swinging. And this is like gymnastics meets like urban landscape.
11:02 Speaker 02 It's like Spider-Man without the webs. It's like skateboarding without the skateboard. We actually try to distance ourselves from gymnastics pretty heavily, so we're not gymnastics at all. But you know, we take the outdoor environment, the walls, the railings, the parking curbs, and our mission is to transform all of that into a playground.
11:22 Guy Raz? So cool. So you and you're based in Riverside. And how many gyms do you have?
11:26 Speaker 02 We have three gyms currently, one in Mirrieta, California, Riverside, California, and Loma Linda, which is one of the Blue Zone cities. So that's kind of a cool mix right there.
11:34 Guy Raz? Yeah.
11:34 Speaker 02 And we intend on opening many more gyms. So hopefully, I actually live in Oakland, despite my gyms being down there, California. And I hope to have a gym up here soon, too.
11:44 Guy Raz? All right. So Jimmy, tell me how you how this started. I mean, it's a great idea. I think of like, when my kids were little, we used to take them like jamboree and, you know, and like rock climbing walls, which are awesome. But I'd never heard of a parkour gym. How did you get this idea?
11:58 Speaker 02 So in high school, when I had first discovered parkour, this is right around when YouTube kind of first came out, so found parkour through that. In high school, we had a parkour club and it became the largest club on campus at 150 kids. So imagine like a wave of 150 kids coming to climb all over your stuff. It was a lot of fun.
12:18 Guy Raz? You would just go to like a park or you would just go to anywhere, an outdoor space?
12:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, like the urban architecture in different areas provides different opportunities for movement and play and you can work on balance on those handrails, you can work on climbing over walls on these walls over here. And so, and here's kind of how we got to me opening a gym. It got to the point where I was teaching kids, like parents were paying me to coach their kids one-on-one and I would take them to just some parks outside. And you probably can imagine that sometimes the local city government didn't like us climbing all over their city hall architecture in the front. So I had a meeting with the mayor at the time, this is when I was 19, I'm 31 now. And I had this adorable presentation on like, here's parkour, you know, I like printed stuff
13:06 Speaker 02 out of my mom's computer and I was like, let's have a parkour park, just like a skate park. And the mayor at the time was like, I don't know what parkour is, never heard of it, sounds like a liability nightmare, you're best off opening up in the private sector. So after I went and Googled, what does private sector mean, I figured out we have to open up our own gym. And you know, then, and I'm 19, so like, then it was a whole hurdle of like business landlords like taking me seriously as a 19-year-old, they didn't also not knowing what parkour was, how do we find the money for that? Like, it was a whole challenge, but in 2014, by the time I was 21, we were able to open our first gym in Myrieta.
13:46 Guy Raz? Wow, how did you finance that?
13:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, a few ways. So I had been coaching a lot of kids, doing a lot of private lessons and things, so I had a, you know, a few thousand dollars from that, I had a job on the side, a few thousand dollars from that. We had a couple people give us some money, we had an original investor give us some money. Our business had one iteration and then it failed and then we reopened. You know, so like, there's a little bit of of play and how the financing worked out there. Um, but yeah, so a few sources and we were very scrappy with it.
14:17 Guy Raz? Wow. So then you are you open this gym and describe for me like what it looks. Actually, you know what? I'm on your website now, so I can see it. Freedom in motion. I see like all kinds of like bars to hang off and and padded things to jump on to and off of and
14:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:34 Guy Raz? ramps and yeah.
14:36 Speaker 02 It's like a 3D obstacle course. We have walls, we have different platforms. Um, and it's not like Ninja Warrior where Ninja Warrior has like bungee cords and and weird rotaty things. Parkour is actually a it's a martial art, right? It's the martial art of movement, just not fighting. So our indoor gyms simulate the outside architecture of like walls and rails and things to jump and land on. Um, and so our indoor parkour course just has all sorts of shapes and heights and and things for us, our coaches to train our students, the whole variety of of movements that come with parkour.
15:12 Guy Raz? Hmm. That's so cool. Um, and before I forget, what's your question that you brought for us today?
15:19 Speaker 02 Absolutely. So our parkour gyms thrive on a super passionate team. We need these passionate people to inspire a passion for movement and for play within our students. Uh, we have three gyms now. I personally plan on growing this to a hundred million dollar company with a lot of gyms. So my question is, how can I invest in my most passionate employees to grow their skills? And how do I scale the recruitment of passionate and skilled people as we continue to open more parkour gym locations?
15:50 Guy Raz? All right, I've got some thoughts. I want to turn it over to Chris Ruder of Spikeball. Chris, um, thoughts, questions for Jimmy?
15:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. Number one, congrats, Jimmy. This is such a cool concept. The fact that you don't have one, you've got three locations. Like, that's incredible. So you're starting to scale. You're finding what's working, what's not. I love that you didn't give up after the first one didn't quite work. You've got that grit, which is absolutely required. And most importantly, you're getting kids moving and being social and together. That's, you know, Spikeball, that's something we're trying to do as well. But I applaud anybody that, uh, is doing that. So that's, that's so cool.
16:31 Speaker 01 On the topic of how to engage employees, is it safe to assume? A decent amount of your early employees were already into parkour or kind of knew a decent amount about this before you showed up?
16:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, and you're totally right to clarify that. I opened the gym with a handful of my best friends, honestly. And so it's been a decade since we opened. So many of those friends have like trickled off. A lot of those friends, none of us knew what we were doing, right? So we all had like giant expectations of that we would be millionaires in in six months or less. And when that didn't come to fruition, you know, like, a lot of them just aren't around anymore.
17:12 Speaker 01 Hmm.
17:13 Speaker 02 So it's like, as we grow and we get multiple locations, I need managers who get the passion that we want to transform kids' lives, that they see the world as a playground. But also, they have the technical chops to like, manage multi-locations, run HR and and train like integrity and a culture of high performance into the coaches below them. Like, it's on that higher end that it can be tricky, like finding that skill-passion balance.
17:41 Guy Raz? Jimmy, do you, you're CEO of this, right, of the business?
17:45 Speaker 02 Correct, yeah.
17:46 Guy Raz? And so, and you've got three locations. And I imagine that probably a significant number of your trainers are college-aged, is that fair to say?
17:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, 20-year-olds, yeah.
17:55 Guy Raz? And so, right now, there's, I mean, decent turnover, maybe they might work for you for a year or two at most?
18:03 Speaker 02 It's like half and half. Some of them, yes, they come in, work for a while and then leave. And then the most passionate ones stick around for four, five, 10 years.
18:10 Guy Raz? And the question is, how do you invest in those, those folks to really help them help you? There's a book, I mean, and some people might, might kind of, you know, recoil when I say it, but it's, it's the most successful quick-service restaurant in the world, in terms of the yield sales per square foot, is Chick-fil-A. They beat everybody. Shake Shack in and out, McDonald's, even though they don't have as many locations, a typical Chick-fil-A does about $8 million in revenues, massive. And the founder, Truett Cathy, wrote a book many years ago, I think it's called Eat More Chicken, right? What's interesting about their approach, forget about everything else, you might think about Chick-fil-A.
18:52 Guy Raz? They have a system that basically develops talent from within. So if you go and work there as a checkout clerk and you say, hey, I want to manage the store, they will help you get there. Or you say, I want to own one of these one day. They have a very, very specific program that develops talent from within and grows people from within. In-N-Out Burger does a similar thing. It's worth looking at, even though you're doing a different kind of business, because you're so young, right, still as a CEO, and you're still trying to figure out the model here. But basically, you need to create a system that identifies those people and then starts to give them incentives to stay.
19:34 Guy Raz? So equity in the business, some kind of ownership as you grow, incentives to help you grow. So if you hit five locations or 10 locations, they get another point of, you know, whatever it might be, that creates value for them over time. You know, and I think that for you, you want to really read widely about what other people have done and how they've done it to give you a framework, because ultimately, you're going to have to go to lawyers and other people to help you actually, you know, codify this. But it's, but the principles around it are not that complicated. It's identify great people, give them a clear path to succeed and to grow, and incentivize
20:19 Guy Raz? them so as they help you grow, they benefit as well.
20:23 Speaker 02 Okay. And I think you're spot on. Get like essentially an internal leadership university baked into our back end of the parkour business. Yeah, I think that's awesome. I think the world of parkour could really benefit from having like a baked in kind of professional incubator.
20:41 Speaker 01 Jimmy, as you, as you think about your march to 100 million, and I love that you've got that goal, is it a franchise model you're thinking? Is it corporate owned or how do you think about these future locations?
20:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, so I am right before kind of really needing to pick that that path, right? Like, I see Starbucks has the corporate locations, whereas I see, you know, Chick-fil-A, you know, lets an owner own a single location, like you just said, Guy. And there's a few different ways to splice it up. I don't know yet. Ideally, we do it all in corporate because it's it's working with kids. So I want to really make sure that it's safe and effective and has that culture. The culture is so vital because if a parent walks into the gym and the culture is even just a little off, it doesn't work at all. So I guess my anxiety there is if we have franchises, I don't have like a total control over that.
21:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, Chick-fil-A's made it work, right? There's a million franchises that have done it. I understand the sensitivity around being with kids. So if I were in your shoes, I would study as many businesses that have physical locations, multi-location, and work with kids, whether that's a nursery school or jump zones or the inflatable house places or whatever, like copy their playbook. And I also love, Jimmy, that you mentioned the like employee university thing. Like, I think of McDonald's, you know, their hamburger university. So what is your version of that? And I think step one is, and it sounds like you've already started, documenting everything that's working.
22:19 Speaker 01 If you think of that star employee right now, what is it that makes she or he great? Write that down. That is that persona you want to try and multiply throughout your three locations and your fourth, fifth, sixth, then the more you can define that playbook, right?
22:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:38 Speaker 01 The more you can document what's working, I think the better off you'll be.
22:41 Speaker 02 Okay.
22:43 Guy Raz? Jimmy Davidson, Freedom in Motion Gym. Good luck, man. Congrats.
22:47 Speaker 02 All right, Chris, Guy, I really appreciate it. And Guy, when I hit 100 million, I have a straight-on goal to come back as a...
22:55 Guy Raz? We'll come back. We're gonna have you back. Okay. Thanks, Jimmy. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
23:17 Guy Raz? Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting, and a CMS built in, so the work is production-ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together.
23:59 Guy Raz? The agents bring speed and scale, and people bring taste, judgment, and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities, it's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.
24:44 Guy Raz? NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called "A Lining for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work." And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.
25:29 Guy Raz? If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. Netsuite.com/built. Stripe is built for whatever comes next, because the pace of change has never been faster than it is right now. New business models, new currencies, and new expectations for speed, reliability, and scale. Stripe builds financial infrastructure that helps businesses start, grow, and operate globally. From payments and billing, to fraud protection and cross-border payouts, Stripe is built
26:14 Guy Raz? to support the new pace of commerce. They're trusted by the companies building at the frontier, from 86% of the Forbes AI 50, to global leaders like Salesforce and OpenAI. In fact, more than 1.6% of global GDP flows through Stripe, with Stripe's users processing a combined $1.9 trillion last year. So if you're already thinking about what's next for your business, see what's possible at stripe.com.
26:55 Guy Raz? Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Chris Ruder. He's the founder of the outdoor sports game, Spikeball. What do you say, Chris? Should we take another call?
27:04 Speaker 01 We'd love it.
27:06 Guy Raz? Hello, caller. Welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This. You are on with me and Chris Ruder. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
27:16 Speaker 03 Hi, Guy. Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me today. My name is Cindy Chin Smith. I'm calling in from the Boston, Massachusetts, area. I am the founder of Penn and Paces. We create cheerful and uplifting products for runners. And we are best known for our Yell My Name bib kit, which allows marathoners to put their name on their shirts, so they can encourage spectators to yell their name on the race course.
27:39 Guy Raz? I love it. Okay, so Cindy, thank you for calling in. So basically, it's a kit that you can add to the bib. And the bib is like when you run a marathon, there's a, there's rules. You wear the bib that they give you, but you are allowed to attach your name to the bib?
27:55 Speaker 03 Yes, exactly. As long as it doesn't cover the number of the official bib, you can put it on top or on the back of your shirt or on your shorts.
28:02 Guy Raz? Which I guess I imagine is super meaningful when you're like mile 18 and you're just dying and someone's like, "Go Cindy!" Just a random person because they see your name.
28:13 Speaker 03 Absolutely. It's the best kind of motivator and a morale booster at the end.
28:18 Guy Raz? Yeah. Have you been in that situation yourself?
28:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, I actually ran my fifth marathon last year in Chicago. And absolutely, the crowds on the major marathons are electric. And when they yell your name, it's like nothing else.
28:34 Guy Raz? How did you get, how did you get into this business? Have you been in apparel or in sports? Like, what's, what's your story?
28:41 Speaker 03 No, yeah, I actually picked up running as an outlet to deal with stress and burnout while working in the Bay Area in tech. And it's needed something to, you know, go get outside and not be in my computer screen. And I fell in love with the sport and the community, so much so that I wanted to create a business out of it to uplift and support other runners.
29:01 Guy Raz? Where were you working in tech?
29:03 Speaker 03 I worked at Google for a couple of years and then startups in fintech since then.
29:08 Guy Raz? And so you completely left that behind and said, you know what, I'm going to start this, this running gear brand that has like positive messages that you can basically attach or wear or whatever.
29:20 Speaker 03 Exactly. I had my son two years ago and that's when, you know, I had the choice of, you know, starting my own business or going back to, you know, just a corporate job. But, you know, it was kind of a, you only live once kind of thing. So I wanted to take this opportunity to see what I can do with this business.
29:37 Guy Raz? And what, so besides the name, like you can pin your name to your bib, what else, what other things do you guys sell?
29:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, so our kind of next most popular line is shoe bags because, you know, runners have these really expensive sneakers now. And so I have introduced a travel sneaker bag that is kind of more fun than traditional kind of, you know, just plastic bags that people put their sneakers in for travel.
30:04 Guy Raz? Got it. Okay. And Cindy, what's your question for us today?
30:07 Speaker 03 Yeah. So, you know, my initial product, the Yell My Name Bib Kit is very, very niche. Even in the running community, you know, there's, it's only for like the major marathon. So I'm looking to expand into other products like these shoe bags and, you know, other kind of race day travel kits. And so, you know, I want to make them just like not plain and boring like running gear is currently. And so what advice would you have for me to market a product that's like fun and uplifting and the designs are their kind of main differentiator?
30:38 Guy Raz? All right, cool. I'm gonna bring you in, Chris. You, who has created a light up spike ball kit that enables people to play in the dark. So you know a little bit about accessorizing things. Do you have any questions for Cindy before we tackle her question?
30:55 Speaker 01 Number one, I wish this product was around years ago when I ran the Chicago Marathon, because if it were, maybe I would have broken the four hour mark, which was my goal, and I did not, unfortunately.
31:07 Guy Raz? You know what? We shouldn't laugh. Four hours, super impressive.
31:10 Speaker 03 Super impressive, yes.
31:11 Guy Raz? Yeah.
31:12 Speaker 01 Thank you. Thank you. I'll take it. Number one, I love it. Can you share a bit on the sales mix? So is the vast majority of your sale, the name tag? Is it the shoe bag? Or what's the general breakout there?
31:27 Speaker 03 Yeah, I would say 95% is coming from the Yell My Name Bib Kit. And I introduced, you know, other products, but the main next category were these shoe bags, but it's not very big right now. It's about 5%.
31:40 Speaker 01 Got it.
31:41 Guy Raz? And can you give us a sense of how have you, have you broken $25,000 in sales?
31:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, we have. And so we're, we were seeing a lot of growth this year, especially. We've grown year over year 50%. And then we're, you know, looking to grow a lot more in the future.
31:58 Guy Raz? And selling entirely direct to consumer?
32:00 Speaker 03 Entirely direct to consumer. I've done a little bit of pop up shops, a little bit of wholesale, but mainly on my website, Instagram. And we started doing Amazon as well.
32:10 Guy Raz? And you're financing this whole thing yourself?
32:12 Speaker 03 Exactly.
32:13 Guy Raz? And so presumably your budget is pretty tight, right? Because you can't, you don't, you can't spend tens of thousands of dollars, or maybe even thousands of dollars on marketing.
32:20 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly. I want to keep it lean and I don't want to overspend. I want to do, you know, kind of spend wisely as well.
32:27 Guy Raz? But it sounds like the shoebag is really where you see the growth.
32:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, I do see there's a potential there and it's also a bigger market opportunity, right? There's not a ton of marathoners out there who are running major marathons, but everybody has shoes, like even, you know, non-runners like travel with sneakers and things like that. But I do see that there's an opportunity for demand and also, you know, for gifting.
32:52 Guy Raz? Yeah, I mean, this is actually a not, it's not an uncommon problem. I would say this is in the, in the focus group of one, namely me, which is every time I pack and travel, I'm like, ah, do I put my shoes this way? Do I, I don't want the bottom of my shoes touching my clothes. So like, how do I pack them? And I know people listening to this right now are picturing this because they're going through the same thing. You're packing your suitcase and you're like, I don't want the bottom of my shoes, that sticky gum or dirt on them to touch my clothing. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna angle them like this. But, but a shoebag, a proper shoebag that would still give me room in my suitcase, that makes a lot of sense.
33:31 Speaker 03 Absolutely. And the other trend that I'm trying to hop on is that their grocery bags are being banned from, you know, stores and most people put them in grocery bags. But really to be more sustainable and kind of eco-friendly, like a reusable, like travel shoebag makes a lot of sense.
33:47 Guy Raz? All right. So Chris, as somebody who cultivated these niche groups, you know, found out who's buying at church youth groups and you're like, well, let's lean into that and PE teachers, let's lean into that. I mean, right now we're thinking about runners because Cindy's a runner. But I mean, there's got to be other folks you should be targeting.
34:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, I would, I don't want to say go deep and wide, but I guess as you're still in the early days and exploring, I think that's probably the route. So one, How many marathon runners are there in the US?
34:21 Guy Raz? Let alone worldwide.
34:22 Speaker 01 But I'd say start in the US. I'm assuming it's massive. I was just in Chicago recently and it was a few days after the marathon and seeing the amount of people walking around with branded gear.
34:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
34:34 Speaker 01 It was even like four or five days after the race and people were still wearing it. I was seeing it everywhere. So just like you go to a concert and you, you're, you have no problem spending $50 on a T-shirt because it's this special event. I think like people are in a different frame of mind around these events, especially when it's a massive thing like a marathon. So can you do more onsite sales there? Or maybe go there and witness with a pen and a paper, like what other product ideas can you get? That would be my version of going deep. And then the wide is what other events have bibs or like the name kit?
35:18 Speaker 01 I think of mountain bike races.
35:20 Guy Raz? All triathlons, all kinds of things.
35:22 Speaker 01 All that, yeah. So is that the wide version? And with the shoe carrier, I mean, my God, any place that has cleats, running shoes, whatever. Can you make a different version for each sport? And I think as long as you're making something that where you've identified a need.
35:41 Speaker 03 Yep.
35:41 Speaker 01 And you're not like, oh, I think this could be cool. I'll just do it because I like it. In my experience, identify needs that other people have or a problem that you think you can solve and run straight in that direction.
35:56 Guy Raz? Yeah, I, I, I agree. I also think that, and Cindy, you've probably already thought of this, but I do think that runners are a tribe, a really passionate tribe. As you know, you're a runner yourself. And I feel like to get to that tribe, you've got to be in the shops too. You've got to be able to get into those shops and many of these shops are independently owned.
36:19 Speaker 03 Yeah.
36:19 Guy Raz? You know, the, the proprietors in there, they're, they're interested in showcasing things that are going to be interesting to their customers. And I, I would really, you're in Boston, I imagine there are amazing running stores there. Have you gone to any of them?
36:33 Speaker 03 Yes, I've reached out to probably half of the running stores in the United States. And you know, and there's been some good, good reception on some of my smaller products. But yeah, I guess the question would be is like, you know, any kind of tips in getting into these stores that, you know, may not initially show interest.
36:51 Speaker 01 We weren't in any stores for our first five years. 100% spikeball.com. For us, we were so focused on building the brand, building the community and building sales at spikeball.com. Eventually, all the stores called us. When Dick's Sporting Goods reached out and said, we'd like to carry your product, I thought it was a joke or somebody messing with me. Same thing when Walmart did it, when Target did it, and all sorts of these small mom and pop toy shops and sporting goods stores. So from what I understand, that's not normal. But man, did it work for us. Because I think if I would have called them in the early days, they would have said, what is this trampoline?
37:36 Speaker 01 Nobody knows what it is. And I think what resulted in them calling us, they saw this sort of cult-like following. They saw this quirky thing that people were into it. It wasn't Chris Ruder trying to tell them, the store, that this was an amazing thing. There was all this outside validation on social media and elsewhere, proving that the world is into this. The more of that you can get, the easier it will be to get into stores.
38:04 Speaker 03 Yeah, that makes sense. It sounds like, build the brand and they will come.
38:08 Guy Raz? I also think there's value in seeing if you can just meet somebody face to face. If, if one of these store owners locally would be willing to meet with you, just to see you and to understand your passion and that you're, you're legit, you're a runner. You're not like some, you know, dilettante coming into this. This is your passion. And this is a problem that you are solving for yourself and you believe for other runners. And I think there's a lot of value in just trying to go one store at a time in person, at least initially.
38:40 Speaker 03 I love that idea. I gotta try that.
38:42 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
38:43 Guy Raz? Yeah.
38:44 Speaker 03 Thank you.
38:44 Guy Raz? Cindy, the brand is called Pen and Paces. Thanks so much for calling in. Congrats.
38:49 Speaker 03 Thank you.
38:50 Speaker 01 Thanks, Cindy.
38:52 Guy Raz? All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
39:19 Guy Raz? Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Chris Ruder, the founder of Spikeball. So, Chris, let's bring in our next caller. Sounds great. Hello, welcome to The Advice Line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
39:37 Speaker 04 Hey, Guy. Hi, Chris. I hope you guys are both doing well. My name is Nigel Lewis, and I'm calling from Rockaway Beach, New York currently. I'm the founder of Station Surf Shop, started back in 2016. And we're a traditional surf shop catering to the New York City surfer. We sell surfboards, wetsuits, wax, leashes, everything you would find at a normal surf shop if you lived in Southern or Northern California or Hawaii. You would find here. You can take the subway to the beach here. So we do rentals, like you would expect. We do a unique thing called surfboard lockers, because a lot of people in New York have small apartments, or husbands or wives that don't want surfboards in the apartment. But what I'm most proud of with the shop
40:22 Speaker 04 has been just the ability for people who kind of look like me to walk in and see someone that doesn't traditionally look like who they would see behind a surf shop counter. So that's been what I'm most proud of, and being able to facilitate that a little bit for this community.
40:39 Guy Raz? Awesome. Well, thank you for calling into the show, Nigel. All right, so Rockaway Beach Surf Shop, sounds like an awesome community. Tell me, how long have you been surfing?
40:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, so I grew up surfing. I'm originally from Barbados, been surfing since I was 10. And it's subtly different there, because in Barbados, it's a water lifestyle. So I'm actually very used to being in the ocean and swimming, diving, surfing, that type of stuff.
41:02 Guy Raz? And I always think of the Ramones when I think of Rockaway Beach.
41:06 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think everyone does.
41:08 Guy Raz? Everybody does, yeah, I'm probably not the only one.
41:12 Guy Raz? So, and what's your question for us today?
41:15 Speaker 04 So, I started this business and brought in some partners to help me just kind of financially get it going. My background is pretty deep in the surf and skate world. I've worked for a lot of brands, have been a sales rep and been into a lot of surf doors up and down the East Coast. That's what I did for work for quite a number of years. So, I understand what that looks like, but I financially, you know, I grew up pretty poor and kind of just grind it to make what I had. So, when I opened the shop, we did pretty well, but my partners always seemed to leave just because they have other interests that they're involved in and they're not committed to the grind. So, my last partner left and I had to buy him out and get it done, but it put me into a spot where I unfortunately had to close the shop. I'm in the process now of reopening.
41:58 Speaker 04 We were lucky enough to secure a partnership with Paragon Sports in New York City in Union Square to do a pop-up like they like what we're doing. They heard the story and they were like, hey, we'd love to give you a home until you figure it out. But this was a pretty important space for me and for the community and for all the organizations that we supported and it's gone. And it hit me very hard and I have the drive to kind of get it going again, but I'm just starting over, you know, like financially trying to get the money back up. And this time I'm looking to do it with no partners. So, how do you deal with loss? Our numbers were good and it didn't close due to lack of business being good. It's more just the amount of payout I had to do. I couldn't sustain it after giving out that much money.
42:44 Speaker 04 How do you deal with that to where you feel motivated, you know?
42:48 Guy Raz? So, you had the store.
42:50 Speaker 04 Yes.
42:50 Guy Raz? The station surf shop in Rockaway Beach. You closed it. When did you close it?
42:57 Speaker 04 In December.
42:58 Guy Raz? In December, okay. And now you're trying to reopen it and...
43:02 Speaker 04 Yes.
43:03 Guy Raz? And it was successful and people loved it and you had, you sold apparel and stuff. And I'm actually, I see you have an Instagram page up still, but now you're trying to figure out how to reopen it. And your question is, how do you, how do you kind of plow through failures? So first of all, I just, I really appreciate you calling, because you know, people call into the show with like, hey, how do I scale this and how do I market this? And you're like, we failed. And how do I recover from that? And it's such a critical question because, you know, a lot of people think how I built this is about success. Oh, success. It's not. It's actually about setbacks, mistakes and failures. And I say this over and over again, because I think the best entrepreneurs, Chris Root
43:48 Guy Raz? is one of them, who's had many failures on his path to success. Without those failures, you don't, you don't learn.
43:55 Speaker 01 Yeah. A lot of big shows in media, you'll see, you'll only hear the, the positive and oh, our growth chart was nothing but up and to the right the entire time.
44:05 Guy Raz? That's, that's BS. That's BS.
44:07 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. So I could do a couple of episodes of just the last couple of years, what we've been going through and holy smokes, is it, it's hard. And not everybody is cut out to be an entrepreneur. So I applaud you for giving a shot and seemingly you're dusting yourself off and saying, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try it again. And that's, that's incredible.
44:29 Guy Raz? Nigel, the first thing they need is a pep talk. Okay. And then we're going to get down the brass tacks here. I think about John Foley. John Foley was on our show in 2019. Okay. And he founded Peloton. And Peloton was the hottest company during the pandemic. You couldn't get a Peloton. At one point, he was worth almost a billion dollars. And he lost almost all of it, actually. And I recently read an article where he, in the Wall Street Journal, where he basically said, look, I'm, you know, I lost virtually all my money. But he has started a new company around rugs, around sort of disrupting that market. And I love the energy and the spirit there, you know, because a lot of people laughed at him.
45:13 Guy Raz? Oh, John Foley. He doesn't care. He's like, no, no, it's fine. I had a setback. Peloton is amazing. Lost it all, but I'm, I'm, I learned a lot. I'm going to bounce back and I'm going to build this next thing. And he's fully into it. I actually think that's really inspiring because a lot of people are rooting against him, but I wouldn't, you know, especially given his track record. And it sounds like you had a really good track record here. I mean, seven years in the business, sustainable store. Okay, you had a setback. It was, you know, there are a variety of reasons, but most, most businesses don't make it past five years. But the fact that you've got a second chance now, that's really exciting. And so what, what I would say is really think about what you learned.
45:56 Guy Raz? Really spend time doing a self critique in a very constructive way. Write down the things that you don't want to do again.
46:06 Speaker 04 Right.
46:07 Guy Raz? And really use that seven years, those seven years as a gift that you were given, this gift to know what not to do in the second coming of this, right? The rebirth of it, right? Does that make sense?
46:21 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes complete sense. And, and the thing with myself is that I'm, I'm, I call my philosophy, I'm a realist. So if this thing wasn't working, I get it, right? And I'm smart enough to understand that there's many factors that affect a brick and mortar retail store, and I address those in my business plan and so on. And I really appreciate what you said because it does feel like I've learned a lot. And I am looking to, to dust myself off and come back, honestly, because the community is asking for it. I mean, there's three other surf shops here and everyone is like, when are you reopening? And the emails are coming in and Paragon has been doing relatively well with the pop-up that we're doing there. So, you know, I feel like the writing is on the wall. It's like, hey, this is just a setback.
47:06 Speaker 04 Step back up and keep going. But, you know, sometimes just the motivation for that, you know, like the pep talk was helpful and I definitely will take your advice and literally write down the things that I think maybe I could do, do better going forward. But yeah, I it's just I was always curious what the mindset is from people who are currently successful having failed to get back on that horse and really kind of not feel just beaten down on it. And then also to like financially to how do you deal with that, you know, because once you fail, like everything crumbles, right? Like your business, your personal credit is tied into the business part of it. If you're just a single person doing it and there are all these things I'm trying to navigate and it's a little bit harder, but it's almost it's where that you
47:51 Speaker 04 said have something to prove, but it's almost like I have something to prove to everyone who thought, oh, well, I knew this wasn't going to work. There's way more people that think it will and will work. So I'm just again, trying to navigate that and understand the best way to go about it.
48:06 Speaker 01 I so love that you have a community rallying around you.
48:11 Guy Raz? Yep.
48:12 Speaker 01 I love that you have a partner like Paragon. Our product has been in Paragon for years and they are fantastic. I so love that store. If you've never been, it's this quirky, massive sporting goods store in Manhattan. And what you have is I think what most brands would kill for. You have people asking for the product, essentially your store. You're down, they're rallying around you. And this comeback is not this like fabricated thing that a fancy ad campaign brings you back. It's gonna be the will of the people.
48:48 Speaker 04 Yeah.
48:48 Speaker 01 So I think I think the big, the question going through my mind is how can you leverage this group of people that want you to come back? You know, on one, one area of my mind goes to financially. So is there a Kickstarter or something that you get started? Or is it a private conversation with a few of these folks that?
49:07 Guy Raz? Become shareholders.
49:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, maybe able to buy a chunk of the company and you know, you're asking about finances. Is there a CFO that works for some other company but loves your store that would be your wingman or wingwoman to kind of help you and? I'm guessing there's a lot of gold in this community. And if you start asking questions, it sounds like they'd love to help you out.
49:28 Guy Raz? Nigel, I think, um, let me ask you a question because we're probably about the same age. And I think, I think oftentimes people in our generation have a harder time asking for help. Is that fair to say?
49:41 Speaker 04 It is. I mean, we did a, we did a GoFundMe and we got, you know, we raised, I think like $26,000 within the first week of it. Um, and that covered any like past due, right? I paid off some vendors and I'm stubborn in the sense that I didn't want to file for bankruptcy because I have been a sales rep and I know how that affects accounts. But yes, I have a hard time asking because in my mind and, you know, everyone works hard for their money. So I don't want to be like, hey, why don't you help me when obviously?
50:07 Guy Raz? No, no, but that's not what you're asking. You're saying, I'm going to give you an, you're not saying, why don't you help me? You're going to say, I have an opportunity for you.
50:14 Speaker 04 Right.
50:15 Guy Raz? It's to be a shareholder in this. See, what's so cool about what, what you're talking about is surfing is to me, and I'm, I'm in California. It's very intimidating, right? I, I don't, I wouldn't feel comfortable walking into a surf shop and saying, hey, I don't really know what I'm doing. Can you help me? Like I, I, I want a place that's like, awesome, cool, let's go. And, and that's what you're talking about.
50:37 Speaker 04 Yes.
50:38 Guy Raz? You're saying, this is like, it's like, uh, what was that movie, dodgeball? It's like the gym for everyone else.
50:45 Speaker 04 It is.
50:46 Guy Raz? And, and Right?
50:47 Speaker 04 And also the other part of this that I didn't really think about, because again, in Barbados, the majority of surfers are blacks. I don't think about this, but in America and in New York, we're the minority in the surfing community. So my aesthetic of the store wasn't, you know, this California based. You'd walk in and it'd be Bob Marley playing in the background and we'd have a little bit of rock and a little bit of soul, some James Brown. And I think people walked in and like you said, they didn't feel intimidated. And whenever we, we spoke to them, it was like, hey, station family. It was always a family conversation because I wanted you to walk in, your feet are wet and sandy. Yes. You know, you have your boards dripping of water because I'll just mop it up after. It's not that serious. And I think that connected and I know it did. I can't say I think it did. And that's why I'm so like gung ho to do it.
51:31 Speaker 04 But, um, you know, sometimes it's just good to hear the feedback from people who've, who've kind of been through it. And, you know, you just need that pep talk, like you said, yeah.
51:40 Guy Raz? And, and as Chris said, now you've got to start to harness that energy from the people like, we want you back. And so every time you hear that, You've got to say, okay, can we have a conversation? I'm thinking about raising money from the community as stakeholders. Everybody would have a stake in this business.
51:57 Speaker 04 Got it.
51:59 Guy Raz? You know, you don't even have to make an ask or we can just say, what do you think about this idea? And just start to have that conversation with people. I really want people to own this with me because this is an opportunity to serve the community and to build a sustainable business that everybody can benefit from.
52:16 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
52:19 Speaker 01 One point and one, I guess, thing to consider. I loved how you mentioned earlier the surfboard lockers. I'd never heard of such a thing, but man, that sounds cool. And do you, if you think of the, when the store was open, what parts of it worked really well and what parts didn't? I'm assuming you've already thought of all this, but obviously whatever didn't work, okay, maybe trim that. But, you know, is there a way to expand the lockers? I don't know if that's a moneymaker or not, but I love it. I love the vibe that you describe of the shop also, you know, people with sandy feet walking in, music playing, Bob Marley, like that, that seems very unique.
53:00 Speaker 04 Yes.
53:01 Speaker 01 For the surf culture and, you know, New York being one of the fashion hubs of the world. What, where my mind is going is merch and apparel. Like there's kids in South Dakota wearing Quicksilver and all sorts of other surf brands that aren't within a thousand miles of an ocean, but they just love that culture. And so is there a fashion designer you could work with that could learn your vibe, your brand, everything? And is that a new channel? I'm assuming you had T-shirts and hoodies and stuff. But could you multiply that times a hundred and really run with that? I don't know. That, that kind of excites me.
53:42 Speaker 04 Yeah, no, it's, it's great that you said that because that is, because I'm like, like you guys have said, this is what I've been jotting down for the next iteration. And, and exactly what you said is what I'm thinking is people came to get station merchandise, you know? And, and the lockers are a great business because it's almost like a subscription model. You leave your board, we charge 150 a month and we have 200 lockers, you know? And when they're full, it's awesome. And when they're half full, like it's still okay. But yes, I really appreciate the conversation. And a lot of these things that you guys have mentioned, I've been thinking about it. But to hear qualified people like yourselves kind of co-sign it.
54:21 Guy Raz? I don't know how qualified we are, but.
54:23 Speaker 04 Well, I will say, Guy, I am so honored to be on the show. I listened to almost every episode when I was starting my business because it gave me the motivation to understand that everyone started from somewhere. You know, some of these amazing guys that are multimillionaires now, you hear, oh yeah, I lost my first shipment. Like, it got held up in customs. And you're like, what? You know, so I really appreciate it. And I never thought that I would be on here, but I really appreciate them.
54:47 Guy Raz? But here you are.
54:48 Speaker 04 Yes.
54:49 Guy Raz? Here you are.
54:50 Speaker 04 Yep.
54:51 Guy Raz? Nigel Lewis of Station Surf Shop. Good luck. Congrats on this. I'm cheering you on.
54:56 Speaker 04 Appreciate it.
54:57 Guy Raz? And when I get to Rockaway Beach.
54:58 Speaker 04 Yes.
54:59 Guy Raz? I'm going right to the Station Surf Shop.
55:00 Speaker 04 Surf lesson on me. Surf lesson on me.
55:02 Guy Raz? All right.
55:03 Speaker 04 You too, Chris.
55:04 Guy Raz? Thanks, Nigel.
55:05 Speaker 04 Have a great day. Thank you.
55:07 Guy Raz? Thank you, Nigel. Chris, before I let you go, a question I ask a lot of people who come on to join me on the advice line, what do you wish you knew at the beginning of starting your business that you now know that would have been helpful for you? Spend less, save more. That's great advice because it's very actionable. I love that. Chris, thank you so much for coming back on to the show. Great to have you. Thank you so much. This was fun. That's Chris Ruder, founder and CEO of Spikeball. And by the way, if you haven't heard Chris's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and give it a listen. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
55:45 Speaker 01 At that time, I had no idea how much it was going to cost to manufacture. I had no idea how much to make a website. Back then, all websites were hand-coded, so they were really expensive to make, packaging, marketing, et cetera.
55:59 Guy Raz? What did you think you needed? How much money did you think you needed to raise?
56:03 Speaker 01 We actually didn't set a number. We kind of just said, invest whatever you're comfortable losing because chances are very good that you're going to lose it.
56:15 Guy Raz? Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully, we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there.
56:59 Guy Raz? And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson, who also composed the music. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Neil Rout. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chong, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
Previous Athletic Brewing Company: Bill Shufelt Next Noosa Yoghurt: Koel Thomae Page updated October 17, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
