Advice Line with Jamie Siminoff of Ring

Ring founder Jamie Siminoff joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three founders about balancing short- and long-term goals. Today, we meet Vico, an industrial designer in southern California who's launching a crowdfunding campaign for his patented ergonomic desk. Then Iyin, a Baltimore-based product specialist seeking to balance accessibility and profitability for her ethically-sourced chocolate brand. And Franchesca, an Atlanta area educator deliberating whether to pursue small-business certifications for her motivational classroom posters. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to Ring’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/af1fddb0-fa8c-4848-ab50-c320f535dc3b/embed as told by Jamie on the show in 2020. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch. You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.

• 0:45Guy Raz?

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• 1:30Guy Raz?

  based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?

• 2:14Guy Raz?

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• 4:23Guy Raz?

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• 5:07Guy Raz?

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• 5:23Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.

• 6:08Guy Raz?

  It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Jamie Siminoff. He's the creator of the Ring video doorbell. Jamie, welcome back to the show.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me back on.

• 6:29Guy Raz?

  It's great to have you. Jamie, I remember when you were on the show back in 2020 to, of course, to tell the story of how you created Ring. You were, you know, you are, were and are a tinkerer. Like you made your first prototype. It would become the Ring doorbell like in your garage, right?

• 6:49Speaker 01

  That's exactly, yeah. I was in my garage and couldn't hear the doorbell and just got an iPhone. And, you know, like anyone, just build your own Wi-Fi doorbell.

• 6:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And of course, you pursued that idea, which was a bet that would eventually pay off in spades when Ring was acquired by Amazon. But there was a lot of, a lot of false starts. There was a, you were on Shark Tank and that didn't work out. And you shipped thousands of doorbells that didn't work initially. Since you've been on the show, give us an update of what's going on in your life right now.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  So I ended up leaving Amazon and Ring about a year ago. I started a company called Honest Days Work, which the idea was that there's better ways to build platforms for independent contractors, especially the ones that really care about the job, which we call the Honest Days Worker. I then merged that into a public company that had a lot of trouble, that was doing door locks and systems for apartments. So if you think about it, apartment buildings are amazing places for independent contractors because there's a lot of scale right there. So we kind of merged that in and then we bought another company called Hello Tech and kind of put this whole thing together. And we're trying to build a new way of doing property management and we're rebranding the company to Door and door.com.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  You know, I do love a four-letter domain name. And so I've been in the process for like the last year of kind of turning something around. And it's really, you know, a lot of ways with these callers, you know, thinking about it, like I'm kind of back with them in a lot of ways, you know?

• 8:13Guy Raz?

  You're back in square one. Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:15Guy Raz?

  That's so cool. All right, well, let's, let's, let's bring in our first caller, Jamie, and see, see if we can help him out.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:22Guy Raz?

  Hello, caller.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Hi, guy. Hi, Jamie. Thank you for having me on.

• 8:26Guy Raz?

  Hello, hello. Please tell us your name. Tell me where, tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  My name is Victor Ugornandez, or as my friends and family like to call me, Vico. I am calling in from Orange County, California.

• 8:39Guy Raz?

  And tell me a little bit about your business.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  I am the inventor of the ErgoFlex desk. A smart desk that's about to launch into the market later this year.

• 8:47Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay, we're going to ask you about this in a moment. And what's your question that you brought for us today, Victor?

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Well, my question is, since we're looking to launch in a couple of months here, we are looking to launch a Kickstarter campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, and we'd like to get some insight on how to best prepare and complete a successful campaign.

• 9:09Guy Raz?

  Cool. All right. Well, you're in the right place, Victor. Let's start with a little bit about what you're creating. So these are ergonomic desks. I'm assuming this is like what you mean by that is these are like standing desks or sitting desks, or they're designed to make sure your posture is right and you're not going to get carpal tunnel syndrome and all that stuff?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. It's actually a sit and stand desk that I recently got a patent for late last year for its tilt capability. So in addition to sit and stand, it tilts up to 70 degrees.

• 9:39Guy Raz?

  Oh, nice.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Originally for my, my purpose was for it to turn into an artist easel. And now everything's motorized, controlled through an app, and soon you'll be able to control it through a voice command.

• 9:49Guy Raz?

  Oh, wow.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  For people with disabilities.

• 9:51Guy Raz?

  Oh, so you can control it through an app. So it's all electronic. And how did you? Are you an artist? Like, tell me how you came up with this whole thing?

• 10:01Speaker 02

  My background was visual arts. I studied in Cal Poly Humboldt, and mainly my focus was sculpture, graphic design. And I started my career up there doing that kind of work. And I wanted to, you know, get a desk. And the sit and stand desks had just come onto the market. So I went to purchase one, but I couldn't find anything that was really suiting to what I was needing. So I decided to create my own desk. And, you know, that has been a seven year journey now.

• 10:26Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  From a very, you know, hands-on, mobile desk unit to now pretty much a robot desk that can sit, stand.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Tilt and then I also added omnidirectional ground movement powered wheels at the bottom so that the desk can be driven, kind of like an RC car. It's all connected through wifi.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  But it doesn't do the work for you.

• 10:48Guy Raz?

  Doesn't do the work for you. You still have to do the work, Jamie.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Still have to do the work. Okay, I just want to make sure. I don't know where the autonomy stops. I just wanted to make sure.

• 10:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah, you still got it. But wow, it's like, it's like the coolest remote control car. Can I, can I ask you a question, Victor, about who do you imagine using this desk? Artists, draftspeople, or just anybody in an office?

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, because it tilts up to 70 degrees, it could really be used for pretty much almost applications. So like a drafter for architecture is about 35 to 40 degrees. And then just for your ergonomics, as far as your shoulders and your neck and strains, right? And also for people with disabilities. I have somebody in our family who has a disability and that's something that is important to me to be able to serve that underserved community. And so I soon realized that this actually would benefit a lot of people and increase their creativity as well.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  So to your question of the pre-sale Kickstarter, what's worrying me right now is that you have a lot of customers, but fringe on each one. Like I'm a stand-up, I mean, I'm standing now. I don't actually even own a chair in any office that I have, so.

• 11:59Guy Raz?

  You don't own a chair in any of your offices?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 12:02Guy Raz?

  Good for you.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  And I, and I could buy one. I mean, I just want to like, just so you know, I mean, I could.

• 12:06Guy Raz?

  If you need me to send you one, Jamie, let me know.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  I appreciate it. But I, but I, I'm a standing person, but the tilt for me wouldn't help me. Like, like the way I work, what I'm doing, like that wouldn't be, like, I'm not doing artist things. And so I think on each one of these categories, you're like in sort of a piece. And so the thing about Kickstarter is you need to get, like, obviously groups into it. So how do you find? What are the other, like, top three? Somewhat niche, small communities that you could enter into to get to sort of buy this. That's how I'd be looking at it, you know, because niches can be still big. It doesn't mean they're small.

• 12:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  But how do I find them? Like, how do I find this person that wants this?

• 12:43Guy Raz?

  Like an architect or even like a nurse in like a hospital, right? Like you're talking about specific types of people, Jamie, right?

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, my goal to that effect was I'm going to try to partner up with about five different influencers in different spaces, right? That that have a good following, one in the ergonomics field, one in the gaming, one in the cultural celebrity field. One of the visual artists and we will design a custom unit for them. And then one will go off to the raffle for the crowdfunding campaign so that any follower of theirs can, you know, have a minimum donation of a $1, $5 and then be submitted to the raffle.

• 13:21Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. And, and tell me how you, and do you have a prototype, a working prototype?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yes, actually it's consumer ready. So it actually, um, uh, my engineer, I flew him out from the Philippines. We pretty much put the final touches on all the sensors, all the safety. It has collision detection. So if it was to collide with anything on any motors, everything stops. I'm about to meet with him really soon and we're about to get the code to do the voice control. So that you'll be able to tell it to go to a certain height, tell to a certain angle, maybe rotate certain degrees. And then later down the line, the AI camera also will be available for you to be able to say, hey, desk, come over here. And so, you know, I think that really for people with disabilities, that's going to be a really huge benefit. If somebody's bedridden or, you know, in a wheelchair.

• 14:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah, like, hey, desk, bring me my, my lunch. Or, or I could be like, but if I said, hey, desk, can you go run Jamie over? It wouldn't do that.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  It'll collide, it'll stop. Well, actually it'll stop. It'll be like, oh, there it is.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  It might do it if you ask it to.

• 14:18Guy Raz?

  I'm going to override that. Hey, desk, go bug Jamie, just go bump him.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I mean, and again, this is where like it's, it's, um, there's a lot there. And it's a like, as you talk, it's like a little all over the place, though. I think it's like, for example, if you maybe just focused on people that are in some ways, don't have the capability to move around. Like they might be able to access insurance to buy the desk.

• 14:41Guy Raz?

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  And so I think there's like. Interesting things. It's just that the one thing I worry about when I hear something does everything is that it's it's hard to sell it. And it's like even in my own, in my new business, I have that problem of like trying to boil things down to focus it. And it's very hard to do that because a lot of things can do a lot of things, but it's really like the magic a lot of times comes from focusing it.

• 15:03Guy Raz?

  Well, right now Victor's got one issue on on his plate, right, which is which is Kickstarter. You want to launch this on Kickstarter. Jamie, you didn't launch Ring on Kickstarter, but you did it. You did a crowdfunding campaign.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:15Guy Raz?

  And so Victor's trying to figure out like, what, what should he do? Right? And so like the obvious things are make a video. And I know you've got a video on your website that I'm looking at right now, but you got to make a better video. And how do you like, how does he get attention for this thing? How does he get people like psyched to be like, I want that thing?

• 15:34Speaker 01

  I mean, it's like feels so Tik Tok-y of like the driving to someone who has a disability or like, you know, sort of from the emotional side of Tik Tok to the fun side. That's a great point. Of doing things like it feels like there's just so many little bites that you could have at that that could go viral.

• 15:49Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, I can imagine a video where you've got like, you've got like, a couple people just like carrying this really heavy desk from one part of a room to another. And then you come out and you're like, why do you have a heavy desk in one spot? Like, the future is a desk that moves for you and that that you can stand and sit, something like that, you know? I keep, I've referred to this several times on the advice line, which is Liquid Death. And Jamie, I know you probably know this story, but you know, Mike Cesario didn't have a big budget when he launched that brand. He spent $1,500 making a viral video that went truly went viral. I mean, you may have seen it. It's like the last scene

• 16:30Guy Raz?

  is somebody just kind of, it's kind of crazy, but he did this. Somebody being waterboarded with Liquid Death, right? Like, he was really kind of playing into the absurd. But you can imagine like with a small budget and a couple of iPhones, making a really funny video that also shows the functionality. Like, to me, that's, that's where you got to start.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  I totally agree. Dollar Shave Club, Liquid Death, some of those have like, they've just like amazing as I sit here and drink Liquid Death right now. And so I do think it's like, it doesn't have to be outlandish. Like, outlandish could be in your own way. It doesn't have to just be. Crazy, it can also be very emotional. And as I think like, you know, depending, you sound like someone also has like grounded in some things that like are more emotional about what you built. And I think if you can try to get that out, that can also be as viral as, you know, waterboarding someone with a can of water, which is pretty hysterical, I think.

• 17:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I wonder, Jamie, is there a, not a risk, but like, given that Victor's trying to create a mass appeal product, like if initially he's focusing on, you know, folks with disabilities, which obviously this is designed to also appeal to, would it send a signal that this is specifically for folks who have limited mobility or rather than anyone, like just anyone who wants a standing, sitting desk?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  I think, I think for sure, what you might want to do is break the brands up. Like, you might want to have a gaming one that's a little bit set up differently, under a different brand. It could be like, something like, you know, Gamer Extreme Desk by Vico. And then it's like, you know, healthcare desk by, it could be like, you know, kind of by, or you could do something to sort of do that, that it doesn't sort of translate over to something else.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that is great advice. That's kind of where I've been working on straddling. I mean, I have my business plan and I know that we can benefit a lot of different sectors. But yes, it's all about how to tailor the message for each sector and not muddy up the waters.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  I'm hoping that there's one that's big enough to be a business. Because if, if you have to do multiple to be a business, I really worry that you're going to have trouble being a business. Like, so hopefully like one of those, like maybe, I don't, I don't know how big disability is in general, but it might actually be that that, just that alone is so big.

• 18:46Guy Raz?

  It might be.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  That that's a business. And then you can do gaming off of that and all these other things, especially as you get your costs down and your manufacturing better and all the other sort of pieces solved.

• 18:54Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I also see it as like, you will discover this over time. I mean, you, you, once you put this out into the world, you'll start to see where you're getting traction and who's interested in the product. And that's, that often helps people figure out where their market is, you know, like they, they, they might have been targeting a completely different market, only to discover that like, this group of people uses it this way. And that, you know, your, your consumers, they kind of show you the way.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  And that's what's just so awesome about pre-sale in general and Kickstarter, is that you're truly, you're not surveying, you're getting like money votes. And, and when people vote with their dollars, it's very different than when they're voting with like a survey.

• 19:37Guy Raz?

  All right. And when do you hope to launch it?

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Um, hopefully in a couple of months. Yeah. So hopefully it'll be live around September so that the, you know, holiday season can be a great start for everybody.

• 19:51Guy Raz?

  Cool. The company's called Ergo Flex Desk. Victor Hernandez, thanks. Good luck, man.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Good luck, Vico.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, you guys. I really appreciate you guys and you guys are an inspiration. You know, How I Built This. And Jamie, thank you so much for everything, my friend.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Awesome. Thanks, Vico.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Take care.

• 20:07Guy Raz?

  Thank you. Jamie, you must have had had remote control cars, like the Frog.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Frog, everything. MRC Tamiya, was it? Like, yeah.

• 20:17Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Those were so sweet. Remember how fast?

• 20:21Speaker 01

  That's really what taught me engineering.

• 20:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I bet. I remember you talking about that. That's right. We talked about that.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Like, electric, everything, yeah.

• 20:29Guy Raz?

  We talked about the Frog, I remember. But I can hear that sound like on my, on my street where I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, that going down the...

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Music to my ears.

• 20:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Oh, my God, it was so sweet. They went so fast. And then they would crash and break and you'd have to, like, fix it.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  That was the best part. It's like when they broke, you had to, like, fix it and, you know, you learned.

• 20:50Guy Raz?

  I kind of, now, I mean, I don't think the Ergo Desk is gonna do that, like, to go that fast. But I mean, right?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Vico, maybe, I mean, as Vico was talking, it's gonna, like, go get food for you and bring it back. I mean, it's like a...

• 21:02Guy Raz?

  I know.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Door dasher.

• 21:03Guy Raz?

  It's like your own DoorDash robot.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:07Guy Raz?

  All right, Jamie, we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, luxury Nigerian chocolate that will spice up any dinner party, guaranteed. That's after the break. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line, right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 21:28Guy Raz?

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• 23:40Guy Raz?

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• 25:08Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Ring founder Jamie Siminoff. So Jamie, let's bring in our next caller.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  Hi, Jamie. Hi, Guy. I'm so excited to talk to you both.

• 25:21Guy Raz?

  How's it going? Welcome. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Ian Akilabi Aladimeji. Everyone calls me Ian. I'm calling from Baltimore, Maryland, and I'm the founder of Looji's Chocolate. So we sell delicious chocolate bars made with unique West African ingredients. And for every bar we sell, we actually give back a cocoa tree seedling back to a farmer where we source our cocoa from.

• 25:49Guy Raz?

  Amazing. Okay. And what's your question for us today?

• 25:52Speaker 03

  I'd love our bars to be more accessible, but as a bootstrap company, we're priced a little bit higher than I would like right now. So how should we think about our pricing strategy to remain affordable to our customers without compromising our commitment to quality and ethical sourcing and also ensure like the financial health of our business in the short and long term?

• 26:13Guy Raz?

  All right. We'll get to your question in a moment. I've got a bunch of questions. Jamie does, I'm sure as well. Let's start with your product. So you, these are, this is chocolate made and sourced in specifically in in West Africa, but in a specific country or?

• 26:28Speaker 03

  It's specifically in Nigeria. Exactly. So we sell chocolate bars that are made in Nigeria.

• 26:33Guy Raz?

  Nigeria. Okay. And most of the world's chocolate comes from Ivory Coast and Nigeria and like, and, and these countries, right? In, in West Africa. And, and I guess you, what you discovered that not a whole lot of it's actually made there. It's just that the raw materials are shipped. And then it's made in Europe or in the US or in South America or in Asia?

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Exactly. Yeah. So like in 2019, when I lived in Ghana, I basically found out that over 70% of cocoa is grown in West Africa, but less than 1% of chocolate is actually manufactured there. And basically, once I learned that stat, I knew I wanted to be part of changing it. And that's why I started Luigi's Chocolate.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  I actually love to, yeah, like why? So it's, it's like, it's produced there, but it's not made there in terms of like the actual finished product. Why does that matter?

• 27:21Speaker 03

  So basically, most of the chocolate you find on your grocery shelves today are not made there. Typically, they buy the cocoa from like Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, then they ship it to the US or Europe. And that's where they actually produce the chocolate. So what that means is, as you can imagine, most of the value addition, the money, the resources don't actually stay within that community. And then also, a lot of them follow like a very typical and formulaic manufacturing process. Unfortunately, there are like a ton of middlemen between the farmers and the end users. A lot of them also have really negative and unethical sourcing practices. And then something that's really important to most customers is like, most of the chocolate we see on the shelves, they're like really boring. They use the same ingredients. But

• 28:06Speaker 03

  I think some people are also, a lot of chocolate lovers are really into unique inclusions that maybe could be local to the region where we're actually sourcing from.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  But the big thing is that by making it there, that instead of them being commodity farmers that are just getting bought by pound by some middleman distributor, now they actually can be part of the value that's created in chocolate. And that's meaningful to them and their communities.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  That's meaningful to them and their communities, as well as the person buying the chocolate, because you're essentially, your purchase is making an impact where you bought it. And then the actual, what we, like our best seller, we have a ginger with planting chips flavor chocolate bar. And we also have a spicy suya. Suya is a West African blend. So what you're actually buying is like a different type of chocolate as well.

• 28:53Guy Raz?

  So what's your, what's your like background? What do you do? And what have you been doing for most of your career? And is this your full-time gig right now?

• 29:03Speaker 03

  So as far as educational background, I studied chemical engineering, but I've never worked as a chemical engineer. I hated it. And I've always worked in technology. So right now I work in like a low-code SaaS company, like as a product expert. And right now, it's, I mean, it's not my full-time gig, but however, it's my second job. I don't think of it as a side hustle, because I feel like I work two jobs right now.

• 29:27Guy Raz?

  Okay. So I'm looking at the website, and I love your colors. I love the design scheme. I think that's super cool.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 29:33Guy Raz?

  One interesting thing is, and I just learned about this recently, one of the top-selling chocolate brands in Europe is Tony's Chocoloni Chocolate. Okay. And this is a relatively new brand, and it's a brand that was started by, basically, the story is they started by an ex-journalist who discovered like the, how chocolate farmers are exploited, and he wanted to create a more ethical chocolate brand. But from what I've learned, that isn't why the brand has been so successful. The story, you can see the story on the back of the bar, but I would go out on a limb and say, most people aren't reading it.

• 30:13Guy Raz?

  And that the reason why the brand is successful is because it tastes really good. And it looks like a cartoony chocolate, like it's got this cartoony logo on the front and it's sold in the US as well and around the world. And I think that while there's no question, there is a segment of the consumer market that is going to be interested in, in supporting what you do. I think your biggest value proposition is ginger plantain crunch is like these really interesting, unique flavors. I don't, Jamie, what do you, what do you think about that?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  It's a balance. You know, my, good friends of mine started Bowlin Branch, Missy and Scott Tannen. And they sort of had a similar thing to you, which is like they found out about cotton and that cotton, the way it's grown and like this sort of like how it affects communities in the places it's grown in India. And so they did a good job early on of doing that. But Guy, to your point, I think people buy Bowlin Branch sheets because they're great sheets.

• 31:14Guy Raz?

  I didn't even know that story. And that's right. I just knew that they make good sheets.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  So, but that was what was behind it. And I do like, I think there's something about authenticity behind a brand that matters. And so I love that it's not like, you're just not trying to build like XYZ chocolate. But I do, I think with Guy, I think you're right. I think the consumer sadly like, maybe it's not sadly like they, but you're right. Like they're going to like a interesting flavor of something and that's probably going to trump any sort of, you know, story which helps. But maybe, I think you're right.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  No, I a hundred percent understand what you're saying. And I actually could, I think as far as like my messaging initially, it was like, because of the reason I started it, it leaned a lot heavier on the impact aspect. But I've learned and it's starting to pivot more into like our, like our flavor profile. But I think what's challenging with that sometimes, and it feels like I'm competing on the same thing that any chocolate would be talking about. So it's sometimes it's challenging for me to see how to balance that.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm just, I'm trying to like, it is, it is, that's the balance. And I try to look at some others like Bowlin Branch that have done this and just see how they've balanced it. It sounds like Tony Chocoloni, it sounds like they've done a good job with that. You know, Liquid Death, which we, I find these ones I continue to talk about, that was death to plastic. Like, he cared about killing plastic and plastic water bottles, but I would say 1% of people know that.

• 32:44Speaker 03

  I didn't know that.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  So, but, you know, I built a huge brand. So, but I think, again, authenticity actually breeds something. There's something about having true authenticity that when you go into these brands, like at Ring, we cared about making neighborhoods safer. I'm not sure if everyone who bought a ring knew that, but we really cared about that. Like, that was something that was like super ingrained in what we did. And so I think there's something still about like having, like, hold on to that. Don't just because if it's just the ginger or whatever, like if it's the flavors you figure out that are selling, like, I think still holding on to that is important. Your question though was around the pricing and accessibility.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  And that thing concerned me because it's like you're trying to, like, on one hand, you're saying like, I'm doing all these premium things to help these communities. And on the other hand, you're like, I want to be the cheapest chocolate in the world. And it's like, it's like, these things are just like, feel like they're just so distant.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think you're bringing up the, the fighting thought process that I go through. Essentially, I definitely don't want to be the cheapest. Primarily, we've been selling online. And then more recently, we just got into like our first small retail store. And we just started actually trying to get into more stores. And I think as I've started that process, I'm starting to think through our pricing strategy.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Where are you, like, if Hershey's is, I don't even know, like, whatever, where are you?

• 34:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. So like, let's say Hershey's is like $2. The Tony's Chocoloni, that guy I mentioned, is maybe $5 and we're at $10.50 per bar. There's like a craft chocolate space where there are, there are.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. So there, there's a lot that are in that space. But I think my goal in starting this was to make this more accessible to people. So I'm struggling to figure out how to think about that.

• 34:27Guy Raz?

  I, I think, I'll get to the price issue question in just a sec, but I think that. Because it's a premium product, I feel like you need to, and you can elevate that a bit more, right? Because I see you've got a video on your website, but I think there are a couple of things that I want to see. I want to see the factory. I want to see where it's made. I want to see somebody pouring the liquid chocolate into the molds. And because premium chocolate, people are willing to pay for it. It's like wine, right? And I think you can just show us that a little bit more. People really, once they can see what you're paying

• 35:07Guy Raz?

  for, it's handcrafted, it's made from the best quality. Like, we pick, you know, we roast, we have the best farmers. It's, this is different kind of chocolate that you're consuming.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, that makes sense. That video was when we shot, we talked about Kickstarter a little bit, but it was part of our Kickstarter campaign when we launched. So I think it's due for an upgrade, for sure.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Now, again, if you're too far outside of the premium side, like even, you know, there are price points you can fall out of, but it sounds like Tony's Chocoloni might have figured out that balance between Hershey's and sort of, like, they might be in that high volume but higher margin. Like, they figured out kind of that perfect sort of...

• 35:47Guy Raz?

  And it took them, it took them some time. But yeah, they did, right? They're in that, they're in that sort of mid-level price point. And you're not like, like, I just made chocolate chip cookies for friends recently, and I bought a really great chocolate and cut it up, you know? And like, this is what you're selling. You're selling like the kind of chocolate you'd, you'd serve at a dinner party after dinner with a glass of wine, maybe, or, you know, like, have, right? Like, this is something that you would really savor. And I think that there's something to this idea that you could, you could put on your label, like, you know, the finest cocoa beans, the best roasters, the most premium...

• 36:30Guy Raz?

  Ingredients, looji, something like that where it's just bam bam bam bam and it just pops off the shelves if it's at Whole Foods.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  I think what I'm hearing from what you're both saying is like, we are a premium product and it is definitely differentiated in the categories. Though what I was thinking about was like, I know long, in the long run, we probably want to get closer to like Tony Chocoloni type of pricing. So should I lower that price now? Or is it, what seemed more sustainable is like, you start high and then as you increase the volume, then I'll be able to like lower it.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I'll be a super hypocrite, you know, because it's like, that's what I did with Ring. I mean, when we came out with it, we were making them for more than we were selling them for. Um, I just, you know, it's some, in some ways, we priced it to what we knew the market would sus- like, the max the market would sustain but still buy it, knowing also that we had to get to volume, like the, the, the price we were paying for each one when we started was way more than if we got to volume and you're not going to get to volume if you just overcharge or charge, you know, kind of cost plus.

• 37:34Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  And so we had to kind of take that leap of faith that we would be able to raise enough money, sell enough to get the cost lower to then get the mar- you know, the margin in line to get the volume and that's, we played that game, you know, it's a kind of a, you know, bit of a game of chicken.

• 37:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Um, and it, and it worked, but I also could see like where that price was going. So I'd also say to you, how far out can you see?

• 37:57Speaker 03

  I see.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Like, like if you really, if you 10x sales, does pricing really come down that much?

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Um, with, with chips and all stuff, I could actually literally like, they gave me the thing, like if you buy 10,000, it's this, if you buy 100,000, it's this, I could like, on an Excel sheet, show exactly what it was going to be. So at least I wasn't doing it like just completely willy nilly if, so if you can see that, maybe then you do want to do that, but I'd, I'd make sure that it's actually going to. Come down and that you're not actually going to, you know, sort of to your mission, you're not going to then compress the worker to get the price down because you try, you know, it's like, almost like, you know, in the end, it'd be like this weird ironic ending.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I would take a page out of LVMH. I was just, I was, I just had the opportunity to go to Paris to see a bit of the Olympics, and it was amazing. And one of the things you're reminded of when you're in Paris is LVMH controls, owns Paris, and really Europe in many ways. And what's amazing about LVMH is their margins are, I think, are so high because it's brand, it's aspiration they're selling, right? But it's also quality. I mean, Gucci or Hermes, these are all high-end products. You know they're well-made, but you're also paying for the, the, the, the brand. You will get to the brand side, but I think you want to, you want to really present this as a really premium product. Start there.

• 39:18Guy Raz?

  It's, it's this thing that is made all in the same place. It's a really high-end luxury product, and, and I think it's worth trying that.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:30Guy Raz?

  The brand is called Lou G's Chocolate. Ian, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  Thank you both so much. I feel so inspired. Have a good one.

• 39:38Guy Raz?

  All right.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 39:40Guy Raz?

  Cool. I, yeah, I could, I could chop some of that up and put them on my cookies.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  I was, I was actually thinking, I'm like, do I get paid for the advice line? Could I get some chocolate, maybe, you know?

• 39:51Guy Raz?

  You know what? Next time you come up here, I'm going to get some of Lou G's Chocolate, and I'll make you cookies. I just made ice cream sandwiches. I made ice cream and cookies. Put them together, wrapped them for a little party I'm throwing.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love ice cream sandwiches.

• 40:06Guy Raz?

  I know, man. They're good. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but when we come back, inspirational posters created for teachers by a teacher. I'm Guy Raz, and hopefully, we've got the answers here on the advice line. Stick around. You're listening to How I Built This Lab.

• 40:31Speaker 04

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• 41:12Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Jamie Siminoff. He's the founder of Ring, which is perhaps most famous for its video doorbell. Jamie, what do you say? Let's bring in our last caller.

• 41:25Speaker 05

  Hello, Guy. Hello, Jamie.

• 41:28Guy Raz?

  Hi. Hello, hello. Tell us, please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  I'm Francesca Thompson from Atlanta, Georgia, the founder of Thrive12. It is an educational resource company designed to support teachers with cool tools and products to use in their classroom. And we're laser focused on diversity because we understand that every student matters.

• 41:52Guy Raz?

  Awesome. And what's your question for us today?

• 41:55Speaker 05

  So I am at the point where I'm transitioning from my teacher pay teacher site to actual storefront on Amazon. And I want to know, at this stage, should I be focused on the different certifications that you can get, like women's own small business certifications, minority women's business certification? Because with Amazon, they actually do have some support for minority businesses. But I'm not sure if I need to do that right now.

• 42:27Guy Raz?

  All right, we'll get to your question in a moment. Let me ask you first a bit about the business. So if I understand it correctly, you make Posters like for classrooms that are like inspirational posters sort of, right?

• 42:40Speaker 05

  Correct. They're very inclusive. They look like students that I teach, my black and brown students.

• 42:46Guy Raz?

  You're a teacher?

• 42:48Speaker 05

  Yes, I am.

• 42:49Guy Raz?

  Your teacher in Atlanta?

• 42:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm, well, I'm in Gwinnett County Schools. It's the largest school district in Georgia.

• 42:56Guy Raz?

  Oh, cool. What do you teach?

• 42:57Speaker 05

  So I was teaching entrepreneurship.

• 43:01Guy Raz?

  Oh, awesome. Nice.

• 43:03Speaker 05

  But now I'm more of a career coach and I help the teachers with developing their classes.

• 43:08Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. And these posters right now are digital only, like you buy it and then you get you down like I'm clicking on one. It says like, I chat, I tweet, I post, I study. It's two bucks. You've got another one. It's, it's a, it's a woman on the poster says lead, serve, excel.

• 43:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:26Guy Raz?

  And, and it's two bucks. And so you download it and then you are responsible for printing it and putting it up.

• 43:33Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 43:34Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  And so I want to have physical posters now that I can ship directly to teachers in school districts.

• 43:41Guy Raz?

  Cool. All right. We'll get your question on with Jamie. Uh, I'm sure you've got some questions for Francesca.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  I guess, is there, like, is there a, I mean, I'm not a teacher. So like, what would be the market for this? Are teachers always looking for these things or how are they looking? I just, I just.

• 43:56Speaker 05

  So we have our classrooms and every year during the summertime when we come back, like right now, we're always looking for products to decorate our classrooms.

• 44:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 05

  And so a lot of school districts give you a little small budget to use to buy products for your classes. And then a lot of teachers actually have to fund that stuff theirself. But we're always looking for things to change our classroom space, definitely things for the holidays as well. We're always, teachers just love to decorate.

• 44:26Guy Raz?

  And the idea here is really to like to inspire kids with these posters. And I mean, there are different kinds of people, right? There's different kinds of kids, like some kids will see these posters and it just won't resonate. But but you have you had the experience where kids will see a poster like this and it's something that'll just click in their head like, yeah, I'm gonna like, I'm looking at a poster that says, "Trust your ability," and it's a it's a disabled man kicking a soccer ball.

• 44:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:50Guy Raz?

  Like, have you seen kids just like, I don't know, just respond to these things in ways that surprised you?

• 44:57Speaker 05

  Yes, one of the posters, if you see, is of an African American student with a drone. And that's probably been one of my most popular ones because, one, the kids look at the poster and they see him and then they're like, what is that? You know, it just is something that inspires them to look into that product and see if they can learn how to use and fly drones as well. So that one always gets the attention of our students.

• 45:25Guy Raz?

  And you design all these posters yourself?

• 45:28Speaker 05

  Yes, I do.

• 45:29Guy Raz?

  All right, the price point is really low, right? I mean, they're like $2, $3.

• 45:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:34Guy Raz?

  So you're gonna have to do a lot of volume to build a sustainable business. But I imagine you have a different plan in the future. I'd be curious to hear what your vision is because you you're an entrepreneurship teacher. So you've got, I know you've got a five year plan.

• 45:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:49Guy Raz?

  Tell me, tell us about it.

• 45:50Speaker 05

  So it's that low because I'm staying at the price point of of most products that are on teacher pay teacher sites because they are downloading it and they're responsible for it. But once I move to my storefront, Amazon storefront, it is going to definitely, I can see those posters ranging anywhere from $15 to $19. And then hopefully, eventually I'll roll out our games as well.

• 46:15Guy Raz?

  And and do you see this long term only for schools? Or do you see this as a, you know, for like nonprofits or for businesses? And, you know, like, remember Successories? Like, back in the day, that was like the OG. You'd go into like a warehouse and it would be like teamwork and it would be like a giant soaring eagle and it would say, you know, like, "Strength" or something, right?

• 46:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:37Guy Raz?

  And and that was a thing and some offices still have that. I mean, are you, do you see this kind of product as something like that?

• 46:44Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, you know, I was only thinking schools, but now that you've said that, I think that is definitely a great idea. Because I'm thinking all the school districts in the United States and just all the teachers that would definitely benefit. But like you said, different companies could definitely benefit from the product as well.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  I mean, even just like people buying it for their kids' rooms.

• 47:06Speaker 05

  You're right. That's a good, really good idea.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  That's why, like, as I'm thinking about it, it is an interesting, like, I kind of love it, the drone-like one, like, just like, I love how that resonates.

• 47:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Um, because I do think there's things that kids don't realize they can do. And if you can just, it's like sparks, like sparks, you're just going to spark them in the right direction now, because with the internet and everything else, like, you can find your way. It's just, but you need that, that ignition point.

• 47:31Guy Raz?

  Hmm.

• 47:32Speaker 05

  Yeah. And when I think about, like, some of my students, like, some of my students with disabilities, just to see something like that on the wall that represents them, and they've never have seen anything like that, that just makes them, you know, feel really good about themselves. And if I'm not mistaken, I think Barbie just launched, um,

• 47:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah, Down Syndrome, Syndrome, I saw that.

• 47:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:52Guy Raz?

  So cool, yeah.

• 47:53Speaker 05

  Yeah. So it's things like that, that we kind of take for granted. We don't know, realize that these things are really needed, um, and that it really will help a student out.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Hmm. As you start to do this more and increase the price, I also wonder if you can find people that have made it, whether it's an engineer at Amazon or someone, and make them the poster.

• 48:13Guy Raz?

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  You know, it gives it a little bit more, I don't say authenticity, but there's something about it that, like, the, like, a little paragraph on the bottom.

• 48:21Guy Raz?

  A real person.

• 48:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Like, this is Dr. Blah, blah, blah, who

• 48:25Guy Raz?

  And is an engineer at Amazon, yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  This, and now is this.

• 48:28Speaker 05

  I love it.

• 48:29Guy Raz?

  Um, to your question, Francesca, about, so your question is, like, should I gain access to certifications, like the Women Own Small Business Certification, or Minority Business Certification? First of all, how, um, how much work is it to get a certification? Is it something that takes months? Is it a lot of paperwork?

• 48:47Speaker 05

  So, um, there is some paperwork involved, and the biggest thing is that some of these certifications, there are fees. And right, right now, with me being at this early stage, and trying to, you see, you saw my products are two and three and four and five dollars right now. So I'm trying to See if it's something I should fit in right now, or can that be something I can look at later and then add on? I just don't know if I I want everything to be perfect when we finally launch our store, but is it something I need to do right now?

• 49:19Guy Raz?

  I mean, I I I have a thought about this and and and I'd be curious to hear your take, Jamie, which is we are living at a moment in time where just getting attention for anything is so much harder because it's an information tsunami, right? Like, like, and we we hear this on the show all the time. You know, 10 years ago, if you launched through influencers on Instagram, you could get a lot of traction. 15 years ago, if you bought ad search on Google, like, you could really scale a business. Today, it's so much harder to convert customers through social media. We're hearing that so much. Jamie, you guys, you may have experienced it even even a ring, you know, at the time when you were still there. It's just harder to break through. And so my first response, when you ask, should I be certified?

• 50:04Guy Raz?

  Is if this is going to give you some advantage? If this is going to position your business in a way that otherwise you might not get that kind of exposure, my answer is yeah, absolutely. But of course, the calculation is, is it, you know, is it going to take a lot of time? Is it going to be really expensive? Or is it is it something that is, you know, modestly affordable? Like, maybe it might cost a few hundred bucks and it might take you a week. Then I would say, yeah, absolutely. Like, if Amazon has a program that they're going to say, yeah, we're going to put this out in front of more people, or other platforms are going to say, hey, you know, Francesca's business qualifies under this program we're doing. I would say, go for it. Jamie, what do you think?

• 50:48Speaker 01

  I I think it's exactly right. I think just be very tactical about it in terms of like, if it's going to return $1,000 and it costs 100, do it. If it's going to return 100 and it costs 1,000, it's not worth it, I think, right now in your business.

• 51:01Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Because I I think you're like, yes, and you're authentic, the product's authentic. It's like, all of these things are there. So unless there's something. That's going to give you the return. I don't think a certification, I don't think the teacher looking at your products is gonna say, wait a second, is this certified?

• 51:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Um, but at the same time, if Amazon's gonna give you more advertising dollars, or some access to something, and they do, I, I, you know, I've seen those programs. It's great. Take advantage of it. They're there for a reason. I love it. Like, use them all, all you can.

• 51:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. They help you with, uh, with Amazon. It's like customer engagement. They help you with the virtual bundling and things like that. Um, if you get these certifications.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  So I just would look at like, again, cost to the return of that, because it's not unlimited return. But there is, those are big, pretty, pretty big advantages on Amazon.

• 51:52Guy Raz?

  And also, um, you know, it, it, it, you know, as you know, as you know, being a teacher, trying to sell into school districts is almost impossible, like trying to sell anything to school districts. But there might, there might be an opportunity, right? You, you never know. So it, it seems to me, and by, by the way, do you know how much it costs to get certified, one of these certifications?

• 52:13Speaker 05

  One I was looking at was around, uh, 300 bucks, um, to file the paperwork.

• 52:20Guy Raz?

  That seems worth the time and the price.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's probably worth it.

• 52:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely look into that. Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Guy was saying it's harder to break through, and I think it's always hard in the moment to break through. I think it's ea-, when we look back, we see what was breaking through, but I think what it, what definitely happens is it changes how to break through.

• 52:39Guy Raz?

  Yes.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  So it goes from Google AdWords, to influencers, to Facebook, to Instagram, to TikTok, to whatever. And I think being aggressive and trying to find those things, I'd also look at with that, with Amazon, there's a program with Shopify where you can tie that into your Amazon, so you could have sort of a bit of a standalone site as well, but have Amazon as the backend. So I would, I would also look into, to how you could do that again. You have such a like rich media content product that you're going to want to be able to really display it and show it, change it out. And then I bet you there's so many people that would love to be on a poster that have made it.

• 53:19Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  You know, that, that would represent all these different areas you're talking about. And then kind of even them posting it and putting their poster out. Like, I think they'd be so proud of that.

• 53:29Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Um, and so that might be a way of also just creating this sort of like, what a great flywheel to create.

• 53:36Guy Raz?

  I would also start with like, I'd start locally, right? You're in Atlanta. Just think about some cool, I mean, I just, to talk about representation, I mean, Topo Watana, who started Calendly, he was on our show a couple of years ago.

• 53:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:49Guy Raz?

  You know, born in, in Nigeria and is now running a billion dollar company. Like, how about a poster of a guy like that? And it just says, you know, um, tech entrepreneur or Yes. And I would just start locally and just contact people. Go to LinkedIn and just find people in the Atlanta area.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Arthur Blank from Home Depot.

• 54:07Guy Raz?

  Arthur Blank from Home Depot. I think there's some cool opportunities, just starting locally. See if you can maybe partner with somebody, some folks who would be willing to be put on a, an inspirational poster.

• 54:18Speaker 05

  I would love it.

• 54:19Guy Raz?

  Cool. Francesca Thompson, the brand's called Thrive 12. Good luck. Thank you so much for calling in.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Good luck, Francesca.

• 54:26Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 54:28Guy Raz?

  I'm gonna get a poster that says, that with, with your picture on it, Jamie, and it just says, see, even you can make it. If this guy made it, you're gonna be fine.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  See, you know what's crazy is on like TikTok and Instagram, on the reels, people keep cutting up my shark tank and then putting like the story like in like a, in a reel. It's over like a hundred million views, like way over a hundred.

• 54:52Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Oh, it's crazy. And it's just this like, you know, got denied, then did this, then did this, and then like sold for a billion dollars. Now, it usually says that I'm a billionaire, which is when you sell your company for a billion dollars, you actually don't get all of it.

• 55:03Guy Raz?

  You're not a billionaire. Yeah.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  But I appreciate.

• 55:05Guy Raz?

  That's fine.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, like I said, I appreciate it. You know, it's nice.

• 55:08Guy Raz?

  But then everyone's like, hey, Jamie, can I get like 10 bucks?

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the, that's the downside of it.

• 55:14Guy Raz?

  Jamie, before I let you go, I have, I'd be curious, like now that you have, of course, started, scaled and exited the business that you, that you built, if you could like go back in time to you in the garage, you know, I remember you telling the story about your wife and she was kind of, you know, she was funding, she was paying the bills, like she, she had a job and you were struggling and you were kind of really flailing and nervous and she, she was like, let's take a mortgage out of our home and all this stuff. I remember you told me this story, you cried.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  I, I do every time I think about that one, yeah.

• 55:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah. What, what would you've told yourself, aside from like, hey, it's gonna be okay? What advice would you've given to, to Jamie Siminoff before anybody knew that he, his product would be successful?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  I mean, sadly, it's not advice because you don't know, but if I, if I really knew, yeah, I think just saying like, it's like, just keep your head down, it's gonna be okay. I think that's the hardest part of entrepreneurship is you don't know it's gonna be okay, because it might not be. And that's also why it's good to work on products that you care about, because at least then you've spent some time on something that matters. But, you know, even now, I'm, I'm back in a new business and, you know, it's, I'm very positive and I'm excited and I'm working hard, but like, you don't know where these things are gonna go and how big they can get and what impact they can have. And I think that's the hardest part is that you're kind of driving through a dark tunnel as an entrepreneur and you just, sometimes you see a glimmer of light, but it's, it's rare to see the full light until you're very far down

• 56:48Speaker 01

  that tunnel. And you don't know how long the tunnel is. Like, it could be one year, it could be seven years, it could be 30 years, it could be infinite.

• 56:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And obviously, that's hard when you're in the middle of it.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  And it's hard when you're talking to other entrepreneurs, because you can't just say, like, it's gonna be okay, keep your head down and work, because it's not true.

• 57:06Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Like, you could keep your head down and work hard and do the right things and not get there. Now, I think most people, if they keep their head down, hustle, work hard, focus. Like, I do think you end up with a higher chance of making it.

• 57:21Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and it may not be the thing that you originally intended to do, but I think you're right. In almost every case on our show and just in conversations I've had, it's like if you focus, keep your head down, work really hard, you will be led to where you need to be going.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's where your show has been. I think if someone, to me, it's the Harvard Business Review of today's generation, because

• 57:46Guy Raz?

  Thank you.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  It really documented what it's like, and you go back deeper than just like, oh, you became a successful entrepreneur, congratulations. Like, what do you do now? It really does tell the story of how you get there. And I think that's, it resonates with people and gives them an understanding of what it's going to look like going through that tunnel.

• 58:06Guy Raz?

  Well, I hope people listen to your episode if they haven't heard it already. Jamie Siminoff, founder of Ring, thanks so much for joining us on the Device Line.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 58:14Guy Raz?

  And by the way, if you guys haven't heard Jamie's original How I Built This episode, you have to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  We start hearing, it's like the week before Christmas, people are contacting me and saying, it's not working. And their video was coming through like, an old TV tuner, like, it was like, all like, lines through it, and just, you couldn't see the picture. So, most of our units are now in the field with customers, that not only do they not work, but we can't change that software on them. So they're basically bricks.

• 58:48Guy Raz?

  You cannot fix the ones that people have?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't rewrite the software on this chip. And so, this was like, the end of the world. Like, this really was. Basically, the business is over.

• 59:00Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues, or questions. You'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there.

• 59:45Guy Raz?

  And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rouch. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.