HIBT Lab! Cotopaxi: Davis Smith

Davis Smith has spent the last nine years building the outdoor gear and clothing brand, Cotopaxi. The company’s slogan, Gear for Good, encapsulates everything about the way they do business, from using recycled and remnant materials to donating a portion of their revenue to nonprofits that fight poverty. It’s a story that Davis told when he was first on How I Built This in 2020 https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/86a6d0d5-1af5-4ee7-9556-84a56530121d/embed. This week on How I Built This Lab, Davis returns to give Guy an update on how Cotopaxi weathered the COVID-19 pandemic and transitioned to a remote-first workplace. Plus, why Davis is stepping down from his role as CEO to pursue another passion: serving his church for three years as a mission leader in Brazil. This episode was produced by Chris Maccini and edited by John Isabella, with music by Ramtin Arablouei. Our audio engineer was Katherine Silva. You can follow HIBT on Twitter https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis, and email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 3:45Guy Raz?

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• 4:29Guy Raz?

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• 5:14Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz. So when we last had Davis Smith on the show, it was March of 2020. COVID-19 lockdowns had just begun. Retail stores were shuttering, and we just had no idea what the next few weeks or months or even years would look like. Now, at the time, Davis's company, the outdoor gear and clothing brand Cotopaxi, had been around for about six years, and it was just on the edge of turning a profit for the first time. And in that episode, he told the incredible story of how he went from selling pool tables online and baby supplies in Brazil to building a brand that makes quality gear and clothing using mainly recycled and remnant materials, and then donates a portion of their revenue to nonprofits that are fighting poverty around the world.

• 5:57Guy Raz?

  Plus, he explained why he bought two llamas on Craigslist to help launch the brand. It's a great story, and if you haven't heard it, you should definitely go back into our podcast queue and listen to that episode. Anyway, we invited Davis back onto the show this week because he has some major updates to share, like lessons from COVID-19 and shifting to a remote-first workplace, or how Cotopaxi's social impact work has evolved, and why he's recently decided to step down from his role as CEO to take on a new challenge, move back to Brazil, and dedicate three years of his life to serving his church. Davis, great to have you back. Welcome back to the show.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, Guy. This is so fun. It's so fun to be back.

• 6:39Guy Raz?

  All right, we're gonna, obviously, get an update on what's going on in your life, because it's a pretty significant update. But let's go back to where we left off in March of 2020. This was, you were one of the first interviews I did right as COVID was just like blowing up. And you were obviously really nervous, right? Your business was just teetering on like, the edge of profitability after like, six years of kind of grinding, grinding away. And then COVID hits, and everybody's freaking out. The stock market's dropping, like, everyone's like, thinking this is gonna be a disaster, the economy's gonna spiral out of control. But I want to play you something you said at the time in the interview. So just take a listen to this.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Okay. You know, these are really, these are really hard times to prepare for. And as a leader, what's important is to stay optimistic. It's to unite your team around your mission, around each other. And that's what we've found has been really interesting. And I feel like, I feel more connected to my team now than I, than I did before this crisis.

• 7:43Guy Raz?

  It's interesting to hear your voice, because there's a little bit of a quaver in your voice there. You're thinking, man, what is gonna happen? Tell me how the next few months unfolded for you.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, man. Even listening to that, I can remember the emotions. And you're right, like, I heard that in my voice as well.

• 7:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  There was so much uncertainty, so much fear, unknown. And, you know, that was, it was in the end of March. So there were so many things that we just didn't know how they were gonna work out. But, you know, in the end, looking back, those next six months were transformational for our business.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  When we had some hard things, our number one product, our hero product is this amazing travel bag.

• 8:24Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  And no one's traveling, no one's gonna buy the bag and our store, we had to shut down our stores. There were like so many crazy things that were happening. At the same time, like I felt alive. Like I was spending every single day thinking through, how can I innovate in some unique way? And our whole team was rallying behind this idea of innovating together and solving problems. And we, instead of doing layoffs, we decided to cut our executive salaries in a pretty significant way. And we cut everyone's pay by 10% for three months. And then we cut it down to 5% for the rest of the year. And then by the end of the year, we ended up giving all the money back to people and we gave bonuses for the first time in the history of the business. Like it ended up working out, but we, we found

• 9:07Speaker 01

  new ways to innovate and be creative together. And it was a hard year, but also something that brought us together in such a unique way.

• 9:15Guy Raz?

  When did you start to see a turnaround? I mean, March, right? All of a sudden, stores are closed. You're primarily selling bags at that point, but also apparel. And then obviously, a lot of people started to just buy things from home. When did you start to see that shift happen? Was it, was it in like April?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Q3.

• 9:34Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  It was Q3. Yeah. Q2 was hard for us. It was year over year, Q2 was pretty much flat, barely up. And then Q3, we grew 90, over 90%.

• 9:46Guy Raz?

  What happened?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Over the previous.

• 9:47Guy Raz?

  What happened?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Masks. Masks saved us. And

• 9:51Guy Raz?

  Really?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yes. When we were, I was seeing masks everywhere. I was watching the news and I'd see nurses wearing our masks, you know, on the streets. We'd see, you know, anchors on, on, on the news, wearing our masks. It was, it was crazy.

• 10:04Guy Raz?

  How much were the masks, by the way?

• 10:07Speaker 01

  I can't remember how much.

• 10:08Guy Raz?

  10 or 15 bucks?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I think 11 dollars, maybe. Yeah.

• 10:11Guy Raz?

  That's what saved you?

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, masks saved us. I mean,

• 10:14Guy Raz?

  That's wild.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  And certainly people started spending more time in the outdoors and that was helpful. While our travel bag was kind of put on pause, people were spending time hiking and they were buying our, our day hiking packs and they were going outdoors for the first time. So that was definitely a lift. But we ended up having our first profitable year in 2020 and it was significantly profitable. And it allowed us to pay those bonuses to our team. And, and then in 2021, we grew a little over 60%. And then in 2022, we grew over 90, about 90%.

• 10:45Guy Raz?

  Wow. And in that first year, I mean, I know, obviously, a lot of your products are made overseas. How did you deal with with the supply chain challenges and just getting things shipped over here?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  It was really challenging. I mean, the supply chain the last few years has been very, very hard. Everything from, you know, the container crisis, you know, boats being stuck in ports to the cost of containers skyrocketed. We were air shipping, you know, traditionally, we air shipped very little and all of a sudden we were air shipping a lot, which not only increased our costs, but we're carbon neutral. So we we offset any of those costs. So it was, you know, those were scary times. Our factories also were dealing with having to manage COVID. And those early days, if someone got it, like, they shut down the whole factory. So, um, yeah, very unique time.

• 11:35Guy Raz?

  Um, one of the things you told me in our interview back in 2020 was that COVID was going to see three different types of CEO responses. One, there's going to be, there would be the fear-based CEO, just kind of freaking out, blaming other people. The unfocused CEO, head in the sand, not making decisions. And the strategy-focused CEO, somebody who could see opportunities in the challenges. And you admitted that you didn't know which one you would become, but you would hope to become number three, that you would hope to stay focused, innovate, see opportunities in the challenges. Were there times where you were a little bit of a fear-based CEO or an unfocused CEO in those early days?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Oh, certainly. I mean, I look back and there's, there's moments of fear that were almost overwhelming in those first few days especially. But, you know, I shared with my entire team this idea, and it wasn't just about the CEO, it was about all of us. Like, how can all of us be strategy-focused instead of fear-focused? And so when we kind of all rallied around that idea, it was amazing. All of a sudden, it was a lot easier to be strategy-focused because like, I don't need to be afraid because no one else is afraid. Like, we are working together to go solve problems. So that was, uh, it was great. It was, um, again, it brought us together in such a unique way. And, and we changed some big things. I was the biggest believer in being in the office guy. Like, I, I had never

• 12:59Speaker 01

  worked at home, ever. I went to the office every day. I, if someone joined our team, they had to move to Utah. Uh, I discouraged people from working at home. I was such a big believer in culture, and I just thought, we have to be together to build this great culture. And pretty soon that whole thing unraveled and I realized, you know what? We don't need to be together. This is actually working.

• 13:20Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  And all of a sudden, you know, in August of 2020, we'd made the decision, we're remote first forever.

• 13:26Guy Raz?

  So you, you guys are entirely remote first now. You're headquartered in, in Salt Lake, right?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Correct. And we still have our office.

• 13:33Guy Raz?

  In Utah. Okay. And do you go in?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I go in a few times a month. Uh, I work at home every day.

• 13:40Guy Raz?

  So completely remote. You, I think you've got now about 300 employees?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little over 300 employees and a huge number of the employees we've hired over the last three years, which is the majority of our employees, because we've grown so much.

• 13:51Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Live outside of Utah.

• 13:53Guy Raz?

  So here, here's my question about that. You have an office, you have a physical space that you lease in Salt Lake that's largely empty. I mean, how do you deal with that? That has to be a drain on, on your, you know, your resources.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. The interesting thing is some people still choose to go to the office every day. There are some people that love going in and some people that even move to Utah when they get the job. So yeah, people still go in the office. When I go, there's still people there. Some days are quieter than others. Some days are bustling. But given this, you know, our team size is like four or five times bigger than it was three years ago.

• 14:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  But our office, we've only grown it, like we actually had to add a little bit of space, but it's, you know, we've, there's actually a lot of cost savings and then that cost savings we use in flying people to Salt Lake. So there's, it kind of is a wash, but.

• 14:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  What happens is we actually get the best people. We just hired the CEO of Eddie Bauer, joined our team last year as the president, Damian Wong.

• 14:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  He's unbelievable.

• 14:50Guy Raz?

  So he's in Seattle and then you hired Brad Harangu. I know he used to be at General Mills.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah.

• 14:55Guy Raz?

  And did he stay in Minnesota?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  He stayed in Minnesota. Yep. And then, uh, we hired, uh, Grace Zunsick from, uh, she was the chief people officer of Chobani. She stayed in New York and it's like.

• 15:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  This works. It all works. And.

• 15:06Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  You know, there's some unique challenges, guy, like for sure. Like I'm not going to pretend it's like, it's all, it's better in every way. But we've, it just takes a little more effort and I found. You know, one of the things I do every day, I send a video to somebody on our team to just let them know how grateful I am for them. And the responses I get back are crazy. Like people, it means so much to them. And you know, a lot of times they'll respond back with like this really heartfelt message. Every other Friday, we do something we call a virtual hike. Everyone has a Zoom invite on their calendar and they dial in and they can go on a walk around the block with their dog, or they can go on a nearby trail. And then someone on the team tells everyone their life story.

• 15:47Guy Raz?

  Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  It's crazy. I mean, people are opening, like, one woman talked about how she'd been adopted when she was young. And they're opening up in ways that like, that just didn't happen when I ran into people at the water cooler in the office.

• 15:59Guy Raz?

  You know, I think that's really interesting and important because a lot of people, you know, who work together don't know each other. They don't know their, their stories, right? And, and so that's a really interesting approach. On the other hand, though, you know, I'm, I'm talking to leaders who are worried about this, that for a while, they thought, okay, this, this could work. And, and, but that they do feel like, you know, remote environment, people miss out on those creative exchanges that result in new products or new ideas or new designs. I mean, you've got, obviously, a business that makes lots of different things, travel bags, apparel. So how do you, I don't know, how do those moments of serendipity

• 16:44Guy Raz?

  happen in, in a remote environment? How are you recreating that?

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think there's a few things we're doing. Number one, we still get together in person. I think that's really important. You have to, as a business-

• 16:55Guy Raz?

  You fly in like, what, once a month or once every quarter or something?

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, once a month, our executive team gets together. Our product team is getting together at least once a month, oftentimes more. We also do these, these things called innovation tournaments. And it was something I learned when I was in business school. I took a class where the whole class had to come up with 10 business ideas. And then over the course of this, this class, the ideas slowly got narrowed and voted on. And we narrowed it down to three ideas from hundreds of ideas. And so we've, we, we run these processes. We do it via Zoom. And the whole team comes together with, I give them the challenge a week ahead of time. People come together. We, we go off into breakout groups online. And you, in a small team of five or six people, you share your best ideas and they share theirs. And then you pick your favorite ideas. And then you pitch it to the whole company with one slide in one minute.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  And so we found these really unique ways to continue innovating and coming together, even though it's virtual. So those things have really helped us continue to have that innovative spirit that's really important to us.

• 17:54Guy Raz?

  So you have found that it's working. And again, I want to dig in on this a little bit more because I get a lot of questions from leaders about how to deal with a remote environment, how to keep people not just motivated, but also happy. You know, because when you're working by yourself for a long time, you can't, of course, be more productive. There are fewer distractions, but it can be isolating. You know, it can be lonely. And so how do you make sure that people, I don't know, don't feel lonely? And also, how do you get younger people to get mentorship, right? Which usually happens, at least in my case, or in the case of people who are older, happened

• 18:38Guy Raz?

  by going and working in an office and finding somebody older, more experienced, to show them what to do.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, these are some hard things, and I'm not sure that we've absolutely figured out the solution to these things. But I do think, you know, like the mentorship was a big one that I was worried about as well. And I think what we've seen, at least over the three years that we've been doing this, is that it is working. And we just have to be very specific about it. We talk a lot about mentorship. We hire great leaders that are natural mentors, that are spending time calling and doing video calls and stuff with their team members and spending that time with them. And it just takes a little bit more intentionality than it used to, where before it would just kind of serendipitously, you'd like walk by your boss and you'd start chatting about something. Now it takes a little bit more discipline. But I think if you get the right leaders, it still works.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  And I will say, Guy, like, what's working for us isn't going to work for every company. This is working for us, and we've found ways that it's really been a huge strength for us. And while the areas that are, you know, that are challenging, we're finding ways to get around those or to kind of invest in those areas. But, you know, for every business, it might not be the right answer.

• 19:49Guy Raz?

  We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Davis shares an update on a story from our first interview about the nine-year-old boy he met on the streets of Cusco in Peru in 2001, who was part of the inspiration for Kodapaxi in the first place. Stay with us. You're listening to How I Built This Lab.

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• 23:15Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. My guest is Davis Smith, founder and CEO of the outdoor gear and clothing brand Kotopaxi. So I want to play another bit of our interview from 2020. This is a story you told about this little boy Edgar that you met in Cusco in Peru when you were there in 2001. And I should preface this by saying you spent a lot of time in Latin America as a child because your parents were missionaries there and you did a mission in Bolivia as well. But 2001, you're in Peru and you meet this boy Edgar. And he was the person who was in your mind when you thought of Cotopaxi like 15, 14 years later. Here's the tape.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Our last night in Cusco, as we were walking back to our place, it was close to midnight. We saw two little boys cuddled against each other on the sidewalk, trying to stay warm with their sweaters pulled over their knees. We could see our breath in the air. And as we got closer, we recognized that one of them was Edgar. And I woke him up and I asked him why he was sleeping on the street. And he told me that someone had stolen his shoe shining kit and he was too afraid to go home. His mom relied on him to help feed his family. We gave him the little bit of cash we had. We didn't have much. And the next morning, we got on a bus to leave Cusco. We went around the main plaza with this bus and at the stop to let some people on and off, we looked out the window and we saw Edgar and he saw us. And we had just enough time where we slid open the window of this bus and he like ran

• 24:40Speaker 01

  next to it waving goodbye to us. And he had a big bag of candy in one arm that he'd bought with the money we gave him and he was now selling that candy in the streets. And he's, you know, an entrepreneur, which I just love now. So every day since 2001, I've thought of Edgar. And pretty quickly I landed on this idea of building a business that could help others. It was, I was inspired by Warby Parker, my classmates in school. I was inspired by Tom's shoes and I thought, you know, this is a way I could make a meaningful impact in the world.

• 25:09Guy Raz?

  All right. When we spoke at that time, not long after we talked, you, you published a blog post with an update on that story. And you ended up reconnecting with him. Tell me how you found him.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is, honestly, this is like one of the most beautiful stories of my life. And as I mentioned, like I actually get emotional just thinking about this and him. But I've had him in my mind, you know, every day for over two decades. And a couple of years after starting Code of Pax, he actually went back to Peru with the desire to find Edgar. And the challenge was that I, I only knew his first name. I knew he was nine years old in 2001. I knew he shined shoes. So I didn't have a lot to go on, but I had, I had two pictures of him. And so I went into the main plaza of Cusco and I started showing people this picture on my phone. And of course, people are curious. They see this really tall, you know, pasty,

• 26:07Speaker 01

  bald guy speaking Spanish and

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Pretty soon this crowd started gathering around and they were wondering, you know, why I was there and I'm showing this picture and pretty soon somebody called out in the back and said, I know who that is. I know who that person is. He's my best friend. And we walked over to a payphone. I put some change in this phone and he dialed the number and someone answered and I said, I'm looking for Edgar. And he said, this is Edgar. And I was just overcome with emotion. And I was just like Edgar, there's no way you're going to remember me, but you might remember a night when you were nine years old, when somebody stole your shoe shining kit. And he was silent for a second. And then he said, are you the one that used to come find me? And we ended up spending

• 26:51Speaker 01

  the entire next day together. And he wanted to take me up to his home. We rode a little mini bus van up into the hills of Cusco and then walked up this really steep hill to get to his home. And he told me his life story that he'd been orphaned. When he was young, his mom died giving birth to his younger brother when Edgar was 11. And his dad died of alcohol abuse a few years later. And so he raised his younger siblings for some amount of time on the on the streets of Cusco and in a shelter. And when we got to this home, he was so proud to show it to me. It was a home that was made of mud, mud bricks, and their toilet was a hole in the

• 27:28Speaker 01

  ground. And I have to tell you, like, I was, I was so heartbroken to see how he was living. And at the same time, I was so proud because he was so proud of what he had. And so we started talking about what his dreams were. And if he could do anything, what would he do? And he told me if he could do anything, he'd be a tour guide that he'd learned English, speaking to tourists every single day since he was a little boy. And he knew the streets of Cusco so well. And so we put together a plan to help him go through a three year program where he would learn to be a tour guide. And so he's finished that program. And it's been amazing. You know, he's one of the

• 28:10Speaker 01

  most active Facebook users on the planet. So we're in touch all the time. And, you know, during the pandemic, it was incredibly challenging. He reached out and just said, you know, there's no tourists allowed in Peru. I don't know how to support my family. We have, we have nothing. We have no safety net. I went to bed that night just ill. I, you know, he was asking for help and I didn't know what to do. Like, do I just send him money? Like, is, that seems so easy, but like, do I create this problem where all of a sudden he's coming to me anytime there's a, there's an issue? And I wasn't sure what the right thing was. And, you know, I'm a religious person. So I, I, I went to bed that night and I prayed and I asked God to help me, to help me know how to help Edgar and what to do. And in the middle of the night, I had

• 28:55Speaker 01

  this idea, kind of, not necessarily in a dream, I was like, kind of half awake, half asleep. And I was just, could hardly sleep, just worrying about him. And I had this idea that I knew would work. And I reached out to Edgar and I, I said, hey, I, what do you think of this idea of creating a virtual walking tour of Cusco? And I know I could sell it to my friends and family. Like, people would pay $10 to go get a virtual walking tour of Cusco. Everyone's locked in their homes during the pandemic. And he created this video on his own, and it's amazing. And he now has his own, you can go to edgertours.com. He's got it. He is a tour agent. He's amazing. He's just so inspiring to me. So this has just been, it's been a beautiful experience. I've loved it.

• 29:37Guy Raz?

  Yeah. It's, it's an incredible story. Okay, so, so Coto Paxi, I want to ask you about, is a, is a B Corp. And we've had several B Corps on How I Built This in the past. Basically, these are for-profit companies that are committed to donating a percentage of their revenue to charities and to sort of commit to doing right by the planet. And, you know, there's a lot of, I think, understandable skepticism around this, right? Because people think, oh, you know, this is greenwashing, or it's really just about making more money. But I want to sort of get a sense of what that actually means. Because I, I know that you're committed to giving at least 1% of your revenue, not profit, right? Your revenue to, to nonprofits and charities, right? And I, and I know you've given more than that, sometimes up to 3%

• 30:22Guy Raz?

  of your revenue. But still, to a lot of people, that might not sound like a lot. So can you explain at least, from your perspective, why that is a lot?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, the first five years of the business, we'd, we'd given away more money than we ever made. In fact, the, the last conversation you and I had, at that point, we'd given away money every single year that we, you know, that exceeded any profits that we'd made. Which I think is important because if you say, if a company says profits, like, well, if you're not making money, then you're not giving anything. So

• 30:52Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And it's a sacrifice and it was painful. And I think, actually, I think that's good. I'm a believer in sacrifice, personal sacrifice, business sacrifice. When you do things that are a little bit uncomfortable and painful, I think it makes you better. And so, you know, for us, those first few years were challenging, but we always made that contribution, typically about 2%, which was more than we'd committed to, which was, you know, we committed to 1%. In 2020, we had a better year, so we actually gave close to 3%, 2.9%. And we try to be as generous as we can. And over the history of our business, the last almost nine years, we've helped and aided 3.8 million people living in poverty through our efforts. It's something, it's the reason we exist. We don't exist to sell backpacks

• 31:37Speaker 01

  or to sell jackets. We exist to fight poverty. It's why people join our team. It's why I'm here. It's what I wake up thinking about every single day.

• 31:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  And it makes us who we are.

• 31:47Guy Raz?

  On that note, you got, you received a $45 million investment from Bain Capital in 2021, which really helped, you know, supercharge the growth of Cotopaxi. And now, I mean, when we spoke, you were 30 million. I think now you're on track to be about 160 million in revenue in 2023. So that also means you're producing more stuff, right? You're making more stuff. And I know that a, an important part of what you do is to, is, is that you wanted the materials you use to be recycled materials or upcycled materials. How much of, you know, given your growth and the fact that you're making more stuff, how are you able to make sure that, you know, your environmental impact is mitigated?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:31Guy Raz?

  Right? Because more stuff you make, the more pollution you create, the more carbon you're burning.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, you know, a lot has happened in the last three years, as you pointed out, Bain Capital, Double Impact, it's their fund that's focused specifically on social impact companies like ours invested in. They've been unbelievably great. They are fantastic people, fantastic investors. The first thing that they did was they tied our bonuses, our compensation as, as leaders in the company to our impact work, which is so unique. Like, I don't know any other investor that's thinking that way. So they've been a really great partner over the last couple of years.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  To your question about manufacturing, this is a real challenge for me, actually. I feel very proud of the way that we've built the business. We call it the three Rs, remnant, recycled, and responsibly made materials and products. Last year, 97% of all of our products that we sold were made of the three, one of the three Rs. A huge amount of our product is made of remnant. It's not virgin material. We're using leftovers and that's, that's positive. At the same time, Guy, like the conflict I feel is I, I know that in 20 years, when that backpack's life is over, it's going to go into the landfill anyway. So we've kind of delayed the inevitable, but how do we stop making stuff out of products that are semi-permanent?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  And so that's something we're thinking a lot about and our team is working hard on. And I think one of the things that we have to remember, and I have to remind myself is like, while we're not perfect, we can't let perfection get in the way of solving big problems. And the way we're going to be able to solve big problems is by having companies that are truly mission-driven go out and tackle these things. And so I'm a believer that we're going to be able to solve this.

• 34:17Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You know, one of the things that I appreciate about you and did in our previous interviews that you're, you've got a lot of self-doubt, which I think is important. I'm always a little skeptical of entrepreneurs who are 100% confident. I think self-doubt is critical. And, you know, you even struggle with things like this kind of, this idea that, you know, could your business by doing good actually have unintended negative consequences, right? Like there have been stories about Tom's shoes. We did Tom's, we had Blake on the show. It's a great product, great company. He doesn't own it anymore, but you know, there were stories about how this one-for-one model actually put small businesses out of business in parts of South America because everybody's getting a free pair of shoes.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 35:01Guy Raz?

  Right? And this model, the one-for-one was really popular for a while. It's kind of gone away. How do you sort of? Make sure that what you're doing, because your mission is not to sell jackets and bags, as you said, your mission is to end poverty. But how do you do that without the unintended consequences?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So a year into our, less than a year into our business, I ended up hiring a chief impact officer. And this was something that was a little bit contentious with the board because they were like, Davis, like, we don't even have a marketer on the team yet. Why are you hiring someone to go give away the money better? And the argument that I made was if we can't do impact better than anyone else, we have nothing. So if we can figure out how to do this better than everyone, and we can, we can, we have something to go stand on as a brand. And so they supported me. We hired this amazing chief impact officer. And one of the first questions she asked me was like, hey, so tell me about the impact you're doing so far. And I was telling her about some of these causes I was supporting. There was an orphanage in Bolivia that I had visited when I was a missionary when I

• 36:06Speaker 01

  was 19. I was living in a little town in Bolivia. I was away from my family. I was feeling totally homesick. I just got off the phone with my parents. For the first time in six months, I talked to my parents. You only, at that time, you only spoke on Christmas and Mother's Day to your family.

• 36:22Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  So I was feeling really down. And then we went that afternoon to this orphanage. And we had saved up some of our money and we bought these little stockings and we brought them to the kids. All those feelings of self pity went away. And I felt so uplifted. And like, I've gone back to that orphanage a number of times over the years. And I was telling this chief impact officer about, like, I had gone there and I actually delivered cash to these nuns that were running this orphanage to help them. And she's like, Davis, that's horrible. And I'm like, wait, what do you mean? And she's like, well, what did, what did they do with the money? I'm like, I have no idea. She's like, well, how do you know they didn't just take it? It's like, well, they're, they're nuns. Like, they wouldn't take the money.

• 36:57Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  But the point that she was making was like, we have to be incredibly disciplined about where our money is going and how it's being used and measure it and track it. And so from those earliest days of the business, we were very intentional about how we thought about impact. And, you know, we don't use a buy one, give one model. We never really have, you know, having grown up in the developing world, I knew that giving someone a backpack for every backpack we sold or something wouldn't solve any problem.

• 37:21Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  So, you know, we've really focused on education, healthcare and livelihood training. Last year, we helped over 19,000 kids. We sponsored the education of 19,000 children in 2022. So like, these are the areas that we're really focused on.

• 37:34Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Guy Raz?

  We're going to take another quick break. Coming up in just a moment, more from Davis Smith about the future of Coto Paxi and why he's decided to step down from his role as CEO later this year. You're listening to How I Built This Lab.

• 37:55Speaker 03

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• 38:33Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest is Davis Smith, the founder of Coto Paxi. So one thing I've been wondering about since you were last on the show, and we've talked from time to time, but I know that you started Baby.com.br, which is a baby supply company in Brazil with your cousin, Kimball. And he was somebody who you were very close to as a child. He was like your best friend growing up. And the experience of running the business really took a toll on your friendship. Has that changed? Have you had a chance to? Because you spoke very fondly of him in the show, in the episode. And I wonder if you guys have had a chance to, I don't know, mend things or reconnect.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kimball and I, I mean, we were like brothers. There's no other way to say it. I mean, we did everything together. We, you know, we'd built homes on the same street. We went to business school at the same time. We vacationed together. And honestly, it's one of the most painful things in my life.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  That that relationship is is gone and I'm not sure what will happen in the future. It's something that I think about a lot and you know, we do communicate here and there, but it's it's not the same and I'm guessing it probably never will be, which pains me to even say, but but yeah, that's a hard, that's one of those sad moments and you know, that I have in my life for sure.

• 39:58Guy Raz?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I hope it one day, you know, to use cliche, time is a great healer.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, Guy, I will say like, since that last interview that we did, it's probably the question I get more than anything else from that podcast was like, people, people want to know how things are going with him. And I hope that someday I can come back and say, you know what, it worked out like we figured it out together.

• 40:20Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You are an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and you did a mission, you grew up, your parents did missions and you grew up in South America and in Brazil and, and you know, spent a lot of time there as a kid. And in January of this year, 2023, you made kind of a bombshell announcement, which is you announced you were stepping down from your role as CEO of Cotopaxi to spend three years in a unpaid leadership role on behalf of the church as the mission president in Recife, Brazil. You're going to oversee about 600 missionaries.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:02Guy Raz?

  You're leaving your business to do this. Obviously, you're committed to the to your church and your faith, but it's a big, that's a big deal.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, this wasn't on my radar, Guy. It wasn't something I'd ever really anticipated or planned on. I mean, I wanted to just do Cotopaxi the rest of my life. I mean, I just feel so called to this work. And then we got a phone call from a senior leader of our church at the very end of last year, and he asked if Aijalene and I would be willing to come.

• 41:33Guy Raz?

  This is your wife?

• 41:34Speaker 01

  This is my wife, yep. And a few hours later, we were in his office and. They just said, we were wondering if you would set aside your life for three years and, and move somewhere in the world. At the time, we didn't even know it would be Brazil. We had no idea where they would send us. And Asia Lane and I looked at each other. It took about one second and we looked back and we both said at the same time, yes, we will do it. And you know, it makes no sense financially. It makes no sense professionally. But from a values perspective, it means everything to us. There's nothing we could do that would be more meaningful. And you know, we've taught our kids every day that,

• 42:14Speaker 01

  you know, this is what life is about. It's not about making money. It's, it's about finding ways that we can use our lives to lift others and to give back. And sometimes we have to put aside our own wants to go do something, to be part of a great cause or a noble idea. And so for us, what better way to, to show our children that, that what we're saying, we really mean than to go do it ourselves. And so,

• 42:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  So yeah, we're, we're thrilled. I mean, we're, we're very nervous to be honest too, but we're, we're, we feel so honored to be asked and we're very excited.

• 42:41Guy Raz?

  Is that something that really you can't say no to, right? I mean, if you, you know, because on the one hand, like I'm thinking about the, the church leadership and like, who in, in leadership was like, let's get this guy who's got this really successful business and let's pull him away from it for three years. But there's a reason why they picked you. And so I guess, you really can't say no to that, right?

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Well, it would be like if Moses came and asked you to do something, it would be like, sure, you could say no, but like, if you really believe, if you have faith, like, why, why would you? And, and I will say too, Guy, we're not special. Like there, we're one of over 400 other couples that have been asked to do this around the world for three years. And I'm one of about 60,000 missionaries in our church that have set aside their lives. And some of them have made much bigger sacrifices than I'm making. And these are young kids at the beginning of, of their lives. These are older, senior people that are done with their careers, that are leaving behind grandchildren to go somewhere in the world. There, there are people like me that are in the middle of their career, maybe the peak of their career.

• 43:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  And so I, there's nothing really that's special about what we're doing, like, but we feel part of this great cause that we really, really believe in.

• 43:48Guy Raz?

  And you're going there with three of your children. I know one is going to stay behind. She's in college. So it's, I mean, that's also a big change for, for the whole family.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And honestly, this is, one of the things I'm most excited about, Guy, is that our kids get to have this amazing experience internationally like I did as a kid. And our two oldest daughters had this experience living in Brazil when I built that last business. So our, our daughter that's going to be a senior in high school next year, she's going to miss her senior year in the US, but she, she remembers, you know, going to kindergarten and first grade and second grade in Brazil. And she has these fond memories there. And she's been so positive. She's not complained once. And in fact, when we got the assignment, Aijalene read it out loud. We waited two months to know where we were going to go. And she read it. And when she read Brazil, both of our girls started crying out of happiness, just the emotion of like, oh, we're so grateful that it's Brazil. And that's where our little boys are going to have this experience. So yeah, we're, we're so excited.

• 44:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I was joking with you before we started recording that, that I know it may seem like a, a sacrifice, but you are going to Recife, Brazil, which is a beautiful beach town. So it may be okay.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it is a beautiful place. It's, it's, you know, the, we're talking to the mission leaders that are there now that we're going to be replacing. And they said there's four seasons, hot, hotter, even hotter, and rain. So, but it is beautiful. And there's certainly a lot of poverty in the northeast of Brazil. And you know, the, the most exciting thing I think for me, Guy, is like, these young missionaries, they are going to have a life-changing experience. Cause I know my two years in Bolivia were life-changing for me. And we just hope that we can inspire them and move them to do something, not just for these two years, but something beyond that, that they can go make a difference in the world, that they can use their lives to be a force for good. And they're going to be able to influence us and we're going to be able to influence them for the next 40 years. And so we're so excited about that.

• 45:32Guy Raz?

  I mean, obviously your investors and your leadership team, you know, and I think in part you brought in that leadership team because of this change. But I know that they obviously support this. But I wonder, will you be able to fully? Unplug from Cotopaxi during those three years? Or are you gonna stay kind of updated from time to time?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna stay updated. I'm gonna be joining the board meetings. I'm gonna be moving into a chairman role. Every quarter, I'm gonna do a meeting with all new employees, which I love doing this currently. I do it, actually currently I do it every month. But all new employees I have a meeting with and I just kind of walk them through our history as a brand and why we do this and what our mission is and purpose. And really, it's about inspiring them and for me to get to know them a little bit. So I'm gonna do that once a quarter. Other than that, I'm not gonna be super involved. I'm not gonna have, I don't think the time or the bandwidth to do it. And I really trust this team that I've hired. They're incredible. They're so, in fact, Damian, I mean, I'm watching him. He joined our team in May of last year. As I watch him lead, I'm just blown away.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  I'm thinking, oh, that's what a CEO is supposed to do. Like, this is amazing. Like, I, I just have so much confidence in him and this team that like, in some ways, I feel like, ah, they don't even need me. Like, and I will say, there's a little bit of sadness and grief that comes along with moving away from a CEO role.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Because it's so much of who you are and I, it's part, I feel like it's part of my identity. And that's probably not a good thing. But I just feel so connected to what we are.

• 47:03Guy Raz?

  It's natural. It's natural for that to be part of, a central part of your identity. But, but, I mean, you've made a decision that, that I think a lot of people would admire and certainly respect that, you know, doing something that is, because you're not gonna be paid for this. Obviously, this is not a financial incentive. It's a, this comes from a deep place inside of you.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've loved over the last nine years being able to spend my time working on something that I really believe in. And I think these three years are gonna be that dialed up another level. Because this is something that's brought me so much joy. So much peace and direction in my life and I've seen it do the same for others. When I was a young missionary in Bolivia and I, I stay in touch with the people that I, I met in Bolivia nearly every week, I'm on a call with somebody and I've seen the impact. And so for me, it's like, yes, this is something I believe in and I'm so excited to be a part of and you know what, I'll have the rest of my life to continue to build Cotopaxi when I get back. This is just three years to go do something that maybe is a little uncomfortable, um, that I'm a little bit scared and nervous about, but that will make us better and that will

• 48:08Speaker 01

  strengthen us and our family.

• 48:10Guy Raz?

  Well, one of the things I talk about in my book, and this is not a plug for my book, you don't have to buy my book if you're listening, but I do talk about legacy and it's a little bit early to talk about that. You're still a young man and Cotopaxi is still a young company, but you know, it's, you've taken it from nothing, zero to now 160 million in revenue as you prepare to leave. When you think about what you want this company to be, not as a brand, but as a, a mission, what does that look like? You know, last year, of course, famously Yvon Chouinard, uh, sort of gave away the ownership of his company to a trust and a hundred percent of the profits are committed to going to environmental causes, right? Um, and, and this was a sort of, you know, got a lot of attention.

• 48:52Guy Raz?

  Um, I mean, is there a world where Cotopaxi is, does something like that, something similar to that?

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Uh, I love that you're asking this. Um, it's something I've been thinking a lot about, actually for years and I, I've been inspired by Yvon Chouinard and by Patagonia since I started Cotopaxi. And I love what he did. I mean, this really bold move to protect their values and their mission in perpetuity, even beyond his life. And I've been asking myself like, what can I do? And you know, I'm 44, um, Yvon Chouinard is 84. Like, I don't know if I want to wait 40 years. Like, is there something I can do today that would allow us to cement our mission forever and protect it forever? The challenging thing, of course, is that I don't own 100% of my business like Yvonne.

• 49:38Guy Raz?

  You've got investors.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And honestly, I'm really proud of that. Like, I have over 70 employees, past and present, that own equity in this business. And I hope it becomes many more than that.

• 49:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  And I actually, I think, modern businesses, if we're gonna, if we're gonna transform capitalism, part of it needs to be ownership.

• 49:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  I would be most proud if, in 40 or 50 years, we had hundreds of people that had worked at our business and helped build it and grow it, that were able to put their kids through college, that we're able to buy a home, that we're able to even pass along wealth down to the next generation. And especially as we build a team with, that's more diverse and that has women in leadership. And like, all these things, like, we're gonna do capitalism differently. And I'm actually working on something right now that I'm really inspired by, this idea of maybe thinking a little bit differently, where we don't have to go public today, or have to go sell to a private equity firm that goes and levers the business. Like, how do we go get investors that are truly aligned with our purpose and mission? And that maybe even groups that have committed any gains that they have, that are gonna go

• 50:41Speaker 01

  back and build their communities and make the world better, where it's not just "Gear for Good," our slogan, but it's actually "Capital for Good." And I'm really moved by this idea. And so I'm working on something now. And I don't know exactly where to go, but I'm a big believer that there is a better way.

• 50:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You know, on that, on that topic of capitalism, how do you make the case to people who, you know, especially in the United States now, where there's a lot of conversations about what does fairness mean? What does equality mean? You know, do our values comport with, you know, these huge inequalities that we see? I'm curious to get your take on, what is the case you make for capitalism? And for capitalism being a force for good, if it can be?

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really believe it can be. That said, we are destroying the planet and we are leaving people behind. And the gap between those that have and those that don't is becoming wider. And so the question we have to ask ourselves is, what are we going to do about that? And are we okay with that? And I frankly am not. And I think we have to do capitalism better than we have, and I'm a believer that we can. And I'm hoping that there are people, just like Yvon Chouinard has inspired me, I hope there are young people listening to this and saying, I want to make a difference in the world, and I'm going to be able to learn from Kodapaxi. And hopefully, they can even do it better than we are. And that's the hope I have. But I believe in 100 years, those next generations will look back at ours, and that'll be the

• 52:07Speaker 01

  biggest criticism they had of us, is this overconsumption of things, the creation of garbage and waste, and the fact that we ignored populations of the world, huge swaths of people that were just left in poverty. And so that's where I think, and I'm inspired to go do more.

• 52:24Guy Raz?

  Davis Smith, thank you so much.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Thanks, Guy. Thanks for having me back.

• 52:28Guy Raz?

  That's Davis Smith, founder and CEO of Kodapaxi.

• 52:34Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. Please make sure to follow the show wherever you listen on any podcast app. Usually, there's just a follow button right at the top, so you don't miss any new episodes, and it is entirely free. If you want to contact our team, our email address is [email protected]. This episode was produced by Chris Messini with editing by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Katherine Silva. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, J.C. Howard, Liz Metzger, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, and Elaine Coats. Neva Grant is our supervising editor. Beth Donovan is our executive producer.

• 53:19Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.