Supergoop!: Holly Thaggard

In 2005, the trajectory of Holly Thaggard's life completely changed when a good friend of hers was diagnosed with skin cancer. Holly realized that most people weren't taking sunscreen seriously, so she sidelined her vocation as a harpist to dive headfirst into the unfamiliar world of SPF. After a false start trying to market her sunscreen to elementary schools, Holly pivoted to retail, hiring a publicist she could barely afford. She eventually got her products into Sephora, a success that helped turn Supergoop! into a multi-million dollar brand. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 0:45Guy Raz?

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• 1:30Guy Raz?

  based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?

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• 4:21Guy Raz?

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• 5:06Guy Raz?

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• 5:28Speaker 01

  I had created these sunscreen swipes, and apparently, the swipes were a huge hit. So I would go around to stores during that period, and the swipes were always gone. They were just wiped off the shelf. But the problem was, I knew that my sales couldn't be great if there were no products on the shelf. And so I'd go into as many stores as I could with swipes in my bag and literally like stock the shelves. Like I'd give them product, which is crazy, right?

• 6:05Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 6:16Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Holly Thaggard decided that sunscreen should be used every day and at every time of year, and how that idea grew into the multimillion-dollar brand Supergoop.

• 6:32Guy Raz?

  There's a concept in business known as product market fit. It was popularized by the well-known Silicon Valley venture capitalist Andy Radcliffe. And the idea is pretty simple. You have a product. If there's a market fit, people will buy it. If not, they won't. Sometimes, there's no product market fit because the product solves a problem that no one really has. For example, Cheetos Lip Balm. Did someone really think there was a market for Cheetos Lip Balm? At other times, there's no product market fit because the idea comes too early, before people are ready. Like Pets.com, which fizzled out in 2001.

• 7:12Guy Raz?

  But a decade later, Chewy.com, which basically does the same thing, took off and is now valued at more than $10 billion. But not having an exact product market fit doesn't necessarily mean your idea is doomed to fail. Think about Airbnb or Lyft. There was no market for those ideas at first. It took those companies a lot of time to convince consumers that it wasn't weird sleeping at a random person's house or hopping in their car. Airbnb and Lyft had to create the market for what they offered. And it's kind of the same story for Holly Thaggard and Supergoop. The vast majority of people think of sunscreen as something you use at the beach, or you

• 7:55Guy Raz?

  slather on small children before they go outdoors. But Holly wanted to convince people that they needed to use sunscreen every day, all the time, year-round, like getting dressed, or brushing your teeth, or taking vitamins. Her whole plan was to work with educators to create awareness around skin cancer, something thousands of people are diagnosed with in the US alone every single day. And Holly's business model would be based on selling giant sunscreen dispensers, kind of like those hand sanitizer dispensers, to schools. But as you will hear, that whole business model was doomed from the start. And not just because there was no product market fit.

• 8:38Guy Raz?

  So Holly had to pivot and completely rethink her idea of how to get people to use sunscreen every day. And in the process, had to basically build out a market for her product. And although her mission is still very much a work in progress, Supergoop is now one of the top-rated sunscreens on the market. The company did about $40 million in revenue in 2018 and became profitable last year. And so far, even seems to be navigating the economic uncertainty of the pandemic. And as I often say when introducing the story of a founder, nothing about Holly's early life in Baton Rouge, Louisiana hinted at the career she would ultimately choose, except for one important thing. Both her parents were entrepreneurs.

• 9:23Guy Raz?

  Her dad ran a machinery business and her mom was an accomplished portrait painter.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, she and my maternal grandmother, even her mother, they were both amazing artists. And I watched my mother's career go from, when I was younger, she created a custom handbag brand that Neiman Marcus could not keep in stock, all hand painted and monogrammed. And she went on ultimately to paint portraits, senators and judges.

• 9:52Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  She's very talented. I feel fortunate to have her as a mother because I have portraits now of my children and I didn't have to pay for them.

• 10:01Guy Raz?

  Yeah, that's so cool. And so, I guess as a kid, like as a little girl, you took up the harp? Is that right? How old were you?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I did, you know, but I'd even back up a little bit to that as I started on the piano. And I played the piano for several years. Gosh, I started in, I think, second grade. And by the time I got to fifth grade, I saw this bright, shiny gold harp that I didn't see anywhere other than my grandmother's living room. And I thought, gosh, if I could switch gears and play the harp, it would, you know, there's not a lot of competition.

• 10:36Guy Raz?

  You could be the best harpist because there are bright, there probably weren't that many around you.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and everything sounds beautiful on the harp. Even when you mess up, it's pretty.

• 10:46Guy Raz?

  Yeah. By the way, as a, you know, a fifth grader or sixth grader, how did you carry the harp? Was it on wheels?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  It has a dolly and you learn how to handle it. It's not so much that it's heavy as that it has so many moving parts.

• 11:01Guy Raz?

  But you were not bringing the harp onto the school bus?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  No, no. And in fact, I played at home. And then for the talent shows, of course, I'd show up. But it wasn't really until high school that I began getting really excited about the harp because I saw it more as a business. And the idea of creating a business around Holly the Harpist was exciting to me.

• 11:26Guy Raz?

  Wow, wait. So you, as you sort of got better at the harp, you thought, hey, this could be my business? Like, you were thinking this in high school?

• 11:33Speaker 01

  I was. I was actually already working on the weekends and every Sunday for brunch at the local country club.

• 11:41Guy Raz?

  Like in the dining room? You would just be in the corner playing the harp?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:45Guy Raz?

  Be Holly the Harpist?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Be Holly the Harpist. And I could kind of set my price because there wasn't a lot of competition. So I really started out playing for like a hundred dollars an hour, which was a lot when you're in ninth grade.

• 11:58Guy Raz?

  Wow. All right. So you are Holly the Harpist, playing harp for money, which is awesome. And, and you decided to go to school at Louisiana State University, which is not that too far from, from where you live, I guess.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:12Guy Raz?

  And what did you, did you study music there?

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yes, I did. So I was never really that great of a student. I, I spent those first two years in college studying music. I totally did not fit in with anyone in the music school. I realized how serious the musicians were in college. And I was more interested in doing what I was already doing, which was performing and playing. And I was at the time, you know, still getting jobs in, in New Orleans at the Museum of Art. And I played a little backup for Aretha Franklin when she came through and-

• 12:48Guy Raz?

  What? Wow. What did you, what did you play with Aretha Franklin?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Amazing Grace.

• 12:54Guy Raz?

  Wow. That's amazing. If there ever is a song to play with Aretha Franklin, you run the harp, man, that's amazing.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  And look, that makes me sound like I was this great harpist, but like I was so winging it. I had no idea, but I knew I couldn't say no and I had no business. I literally had to break down every measure and I was that reading music type student, you know? But you keep in mind, like, I enjoyed the business of Holly the Harpist way more than I enjoyed playing the harp.

• 13:21Guy Raz?

  So if you, I mean, if you didn't enjoy playing the harp that much, what, like, what did you decide that you wanted to do professionally?

• 13:29Speaker 01

  So I had also grown up, because I think I'm such an organized person and I love pencils and supplies and things. I grew up thinking that being a teacher would be really fun. And I often, even when my little brother would get home from school and, you know, keep in mind, he was seven years younger than I was. I would sort of start a new session in his room and get worksheets for him and pass out my sheets. And, and so I thought, well, maybe I should, maybe I should be a teacher.

• 13:57Guy Raz?

  And, and I guess that's what you did. I read that you, you went on to, to study education and got your first teaching job, I think in Baton Rouge. Is that, is that right?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  It was. So there was a private Episcopal school in Baton Rouge that was, actually I later learned, was quite difficult to get a job there as a first year out of college.

• 14:19Guy Raz?

  And how was it?

• 14:21Speaker 01

  It was fantastic. So I had a wonderful year. I poured my heart into doing everything that I had learned in college. I also, kind of looking back now, I think I poured my heart into outdoing every other teacher in the school and kept my eye on trying to impress the, the board that had given me the opportunity to be there. But I loved every second of it. I, and in fact, I still talk to those 17 students, many of them, today.

• 14:51Guy Raz?

  But from what I've read, you only, you were only a teacher for a year. I mean, you had this, you know, promising career. What, why aren't you a teacher today? What happened?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, the end of the school year came when contracts are placed in the teachers' boxes. And I didn't receive one and.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  And the school said they were not offering me a return contract. And I later learned as a first year teacher, you're considered provisional. And they said, you know, this was due to problems and concerns that were were brought up from my other peer teachers and not really fitting in well.

• 15:29Guy Raz?

  What did that mean?

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. I I didn't know either. I did a lot of exploration at that moment, but I was devastated.

• 15:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  I, you know, I had gone to college to to be a third grade school teacher. And and here my career was seemingly ending very quickly.

• 15:49Guy Raz?

  And and you never got any more specific feedback? Like, what was it that you did or not do or?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  I did. I did. And I learned, you know, I was sort of breaking rules. I wasn't eating lunch with the other teachers. I wasn't hanging out in the teacher's lounge, talking and connecting. And and I, if I was, you know, being completely honest with myself, I did feel a little claustrophobic within the four walls of a classroom. And they were, in a way, right. I did constantly look for ways to sort of leave campus early. Or, you know, I'd say I had a hard job and and double book myself. And, you know, it it there was, that wasn't in the cards for me.

• 16:32Guy Raz?

  And. Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  But, you know, after a couple of months of exploring these these things, I just decided I'm going to move on.

• 16:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, it is amazing, though, that setbacks can actually be a blessing that you don't, you don't realize at the time, right? Like, a hu, like, had you had this amazing year and they renewed your contract and you stayed there, you might not have ever done what you did.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I'm so grateful that that played out like it did because I don't think I would have been pushed to go and change directions. I would have kept that cush job. And, you know, that that's not what was in the cards for my life's work.

• 17:15Guy Raz?

  So what did you end up doing next?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Well, at the time, my brother was starting college at SMU in Dallas. And I had plenty of time on my hands, so I went to help him move in the dorms. And all I could do was look around at all the beautiful homes in Highland Park and how they all really needed Holly the Harpist in their life.

• 17:37Guy Raz?

  So you decided to stay in Dallas after helping him move in?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Well, I knew that if I were going to propose a move to my parents, that I needed to have a job lined up. So I actually, during that brief weekend visit, I walked over to the Dallas Country Club and knocked on the door of the general manager's office and introduced myself and told them all about my music and that I was hoping that they might look to have some new entertainment in their dining room. And I went back, convinced my parents that I could make a living performing and moved my harp to Dallas, found an apartment and literally did the kind of back of the napkin math, like, how many hours a week do I need to play the harp to pay for the rent?

• 18:25Guy Raz?

  This is like 1996, I think.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:28Guy Raz?

  So you're like in your, you know, 22, 23 years old, living in Dallas, playing the harp, and that's, that becomes your business, Holly the Harpist?

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Holly the Harpist, yes. So I went from Dallas Country Club to the Petroleum Club, to Brook Hollow Golf Club, and did this, made the same introduction. And this is really when I realized that building this business of Holly the Harpist was when I lost all track of time and creating like direct mail pieces and looking into the book of lists. I often would read the CEOs and write letters to their home. You know, I'm from the South, so writing letters has always been a big part of my upbringing. But I got a really good response from, from just the jobs that I had and spent the next 10 years of my life actually performing. And that's how I paid the rent.

• 19:22Guy Raz?

  You are the Harpist of choice, or one of them, I guess, in Dallas and probably making a decent living.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  I was doing really well. My rates had gone up to, I had a $1,000 minimum for any party, which often, if a, if a party was only an hour, that's a, that's a great.

• 19:40Guy Raz?

  That's great.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Great money.

• 19:41Guy Raz?

  That's like a lawyer, that's like a senior partner at a law firm in New York.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Right, I just wasn't billing the hours the lawyer would bill.

• 19:49Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And what about your personal life? Were you married? Were you single at the time?

• 19:55Speaker 01

  You know, no, I was just dating in Dallas. And until my late twenties, did I not meet my now husband and his very best, closest friend in college. I performed, I played the harp for many rehearsal dinners and weddings for their family. And Mary Montgomery, you know, the person I worked, that would engage me for these, said, "You've got to meet my son's best friend." And so that's how I met Ty. And we continued dating as I performed and played until, I guess, we were engaged when we were about 31.

• 20:31Guy Raz?

  And so this was like, what, 2004-ish, you got engaged around then?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  2000, more like '02, I think.

• 20:38Guy Raz?

  Then '02, okay.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  But when Ty and I started talking about a family and being married and everything, you know, performing on Mother's Day and Christmas and Thanksgiving and continuing on that path, just felt like it was time to retire. And it's exhausting playing evenings. And that's not a real great life for having a family.

• 21:00Guy Raz?

  Sure. So you're kind of done with the harp side of your life. You're newly married. And I guess you, something happens in 2005, which is a friend of yours is diagnosed with skin cancer.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:14Guy Raz?

  And first of all, this is, I didn't know this, but this is like one of the most diagnosed form of cancer, you know, full stop.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:21Guy Raz?

  When your friend was diagnosed, what was the prognosis?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Oh, and he's fine now. But, you know, I started thinking, and a good college friend of mine was going through her residency in dermatology at the time. And I was talking with her about my friend's skin cancer. And, you know, she said, "Holly, it's not about the beach. It's about that every single day cumulative exposure that ultimately, and usually much later in life, becomes skin cancer." But for your friend who has blonde hair and blue eyes. And, you know, it happened at a much younger age.

• 21:56Guy Raz?

  It's not about going to the beach and not using sun lotion, suntan lotion.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:59Guy Raz?

  Or sunblock, whatever. It's just about being outside every day. And over time, some people develop skin cancer. And by the way, most people who do develop skin cancer, it's generally highly curable if it's caught relatively early.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yes, if found early.

• 22:17Guy Raz?

  So you, to hear this, and what? And then you're thinking?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Well, my initial thought was this could have just as easily have been me. I have blonde hair, I have blue eyes. And I remember, gosh, my spring break in my middle school years, I remember going to Florida and lying on the roof of this house we rented. And I got so blistering sunburned that I was sick and swollen. And it ruined my entire week.

• 22:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  But then I also immediately thought about my 17 kids that I taught that year in the classroom. And never once did I see a tube of sunscreen on the school campus. Despite the fact that the children were on the playground in the middle of the day and often even staying and in sports in the afternoon, no one was wearing sunscreen.

• 23:03Guy Raz?

  And to be clear, the vast majority of us are not wearing sunscreen all the time. Right? This is just not part of our... It's not like brushing your teeth. Most people just don't do this. This is 2005, and you start to think, what? Like, hey, maybe I can figure out a way to get people to wear sunscreen all the time, not just at the beach? Was that what you were thinking, like, immediately?

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yes. So I found this study by Memorial Sloan Kettering that was talking about how most people knew sunscreen prevents skin cancer. But I think it was like 70% don't wear it, just like you said, every single day. And the number one reason was because it didn't feel good on the skin. And I think just being a child of two entrepreneurs and always thinking about creating and building and researching, and this just was really interesting. I also think that I have always been a product person, which I think kind of goes back to being with my mother and often critiquing other art and talking about skin tones and colors and the composition of things being so important.

• 24:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Um, to the success of that. And so I was thinking, why don't schools offer sunscreen? Why don't children have access to sunscreen in schools? And for me, I just took it to this extreme of like, gosh, we wouldn't send the kids on the playground without a fence around the playground.

• 24:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  But we're sending them out on the playground with a carcinogen above them.

• 24:36Guy Raz?

  So the original idea you had was, let me figure out how to get sunscreen into schools. Like, like, um, you know, we've got like hand sanitizer dispensers.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:46Guy Raz?

  Like you would have those around schools and that would, that would essentially be your, your business.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Yes. And in part, I also knew the importance of education around this. And, you know, I was a teacher and, uh, you know, it's not really a, it wasn't a shortage of SPF products in the country that were causing the epidemic. It was a lack of education around the importance of wearing SPF every single day.

• 25:10Guy Raz?

  So was your, this is 2005, was your idea to find an existing sunscreen brand? And then just get schools to put that into their, like into the hallways? Was that, or did you already from the beginning think, I'm going to make a sunscreen?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Well, so the first step was to what is, what is out there? And I really wanted to look, I did not grow up wearing sunscreen every single day. So I was thinking, what is that product that I should have been wearing? And so I, I looked on the market and, you know, like you said, in 2005, SPF was an incredibly sleepy category and it was owned by the mass channels of distribution like Walgreens and Target and Walmart. And what I found was that SPF was being promoted and marketed as an incredibly seasonal thing. And you couldn't actually even find SPF outside of May, June, or July.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  And when I did find it, I looked at the ingredients and found that 90% of what was on the market was just full of very controversial ingredients.

• 26:14Guy Raz?

  What, what's an example of that?

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Well, so, one of those that was often spotlighted was the ingredient oxybenzone, which was being found in breast cancer tissue. And what I also found is that every single chemical formula in the country relied on oxybenzone for its efficacy.

• 26:34Guy Raz?

  Even the organic brands?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Well, so, there were two types of formulas. There were the chemical formulas, which are those that absorb easily into the skin and they're great for athletes. And then there's mineral formulas.

• 26:46Guy Raz?

  And the mineral formulas, just to be clear, there's the ones that are like really white on your skin, like the zincs sort of sticks and stuff?

• 26:52Speaker 01

  They feel real thick and pasty on the skin.

• 26:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah, sure. And essentially, you couldn't rub in the natural ones into your skin. And you're thinking, hey, why isn't there a natural one that can do that?

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yes, I felt like there was such an opportunity to do both chemical formulas, which there are advantages to, in a clean and healthy way, and mineral formulas, I felt needed an upgrade too, because they didn't need to feel so thick and pasty. Because if there were options for people to wear sunscreen every single day that were beautiful and luxurious and felt great, then that would be that first step closer to stopping skin cancer.

• 27:32Guy Raz?

  All right. I'm thinking, if I'm you, it's 2005, 2006, and I'm starting to kind of, you know, it sounds like you're kind of following this idea and thinking there might be something there. And you're obviously learning as much as you can about sunscreen. But when I've read the backs of comparative brands that I think are pretty great, I don't understand any of the words. Were you, weren't you like looking at the backs of sunscreen bottles and like, what is this? And what, like, did you even know what those things were?

• 28:03Speaker 01

  No, it was a lot of research, a lot of exploring. I found that there was a national sunscreen symposium, and I reached out to every chemist that was speaking at that event. And I just picked everybody's brain and just became obsessed with learning.

• 28:17Guy Raz?

  You called them or you emailed them and asked them what? You said, "I'm Holly and I'm doing, I'm starting a sunscreen brand." Like, what was your pitch to them? Why would they give you the time?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Well, fortunately for me, the chemists, all the response was very kind to me. And they taught me so much about ingredient decks. And most of those chemists were not up for the challenge of... The challenge that I gave was, "I'm interested in creating an SPF product that does not have oxybenzone, does not rely on parabens, propylene glycol, a handful of other ingredients that I just wasn't that fond of." And most of what I heard was, "It can't be done."

• 28:56Guy Raz?

  "It can't be done." They were saying, "You can't make a sunscreen that is nonchemical that can be rubbed into skin?"

• 29:04Speaker 01

  They were saying that you can't make a sunscreen that will test to a high efficacious SPF number without the use of oxybenzone. And without the preservative system of a paraben, which is what keeps your product healthy and clean, it couldn't be done, so parabens were needed.

• 29:23Guy Raz?

  Why is sunscreen... I had no idea that sunscreen was so complex.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Well, I think that what is so complicated is not necessarily having an efficacious sunscreen. It's limiting yourself to a certain set of ingredients and then making it aesthetically so pleasing that it would make Guy Raz want to pick it up and put it on his skin every single day.

• 29:44Guy Raz?

  Got it. Because now, if you ask me, like, if you saw me on the beach in the summertime, you would think I was a zebra because I'd just have giant white stripes all over my face. Because I'm fine with that, I don't care. But you can't do that every day, right? You can get away with that at the beach. Or if you were three years old. I remember, like, slathering on white zinc stuff on my kid's face. But you can't... You're saying, "You wanted to do something that you could use every day." And you can't, you can't look like a zebra every day.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Well, and the reason for that is that in my research, I learned that there's UVA rays and there's UVB rays. And UVB rays cause that burning on your skin that changes the color of your skin. But UVA rays are not only aging, but they penetrate deeper into the skin than UVB. And they're present in all seasons, no matter what the weather is, even on a cloudy day. And they're skin cancer-causing.

• 30:37Guy Raz?

  So you clearly are starting to develop an expertise on sunscreen, but like, you're not picking like cookies to bake. You can't do this alone. You actually have to go and find somebody willing to make you a product that doesn't have the ingredients that you don't want it to have, but that does what you want it to do.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Correct. That is the joke around our family is you had to do sunscreen, Holly, because it's very difficult to formulate.

• 31:06Guy Raz?

  And so where do you go?

• 31:07Speaker 01

  I started with the first chemist that said, that's interesting. That's an interesting idea. I didn't realize that oxybenzone was so controversial. And he was willing to completely pro bono start working on a formula to see if we could rise to the challenge of creating something that felt great on the skin and was healthy in ingredient choices.

• 31:29Guy Raz?

  And wait, who was this lab? And where were they? And how'd you get in touch with them?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so through those conversations with chemists from the National Sunscreen Symposium is who I found that the first chemist. It was in California and I'm in Texas. And I think, you know, in a good way, a lot of chemists are a little nerdy and up for challenging things like that. And I just got lucky too, I think.

• 31:55Guy Raz?

  But how did you convince this chemist to make your prototype? I mean, putting on my hat as like a entrepreneur hat, right? And that's not enough for...

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 32:07Guy Raz?

  I mean, you can't just call somebody up and say, I have this mission. I want to do it. And then the person says, okay, I'm going to devote all this time in my lab to working on building a prototype for you. Like, it had to have been harder than that. Maybe it wasn't. I don't know.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  You know, I think telling my story, my intention for this magic formula that we were going to create was to put it in every school across America. And so I sold that story of, gosh, we're going to create this and every child in the country is going to be wearing this game-changing SPF.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  That is when, and the process of creating an SPF product takes a while. And once I had that kind of off and running with the right chemist who I felt was up for the challenge, I then sort of pivoted my time and attention to how are we going to do this in a beautiful way that's fun and playful and, you know, more of the marketing's and education side of the business.

• 33:06Guy Raz?

  And did you fly out to work with the chemist or were you just dealing with the person on the phone or email or like, how did that work?

• 33:14Speaker 01

  We had a lot of phone calls about what I felt like, you know, the characteristics of the texture, the feel. And then they started mailing FedEx. We did mailing samples and then I'd give feedback on those samples.

• 33:27Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  And I just kind of passed them around to my family and asked what they thought of this goop or that goop and.

• 33:33Guy Raz?

  You already knew you were going to call it goop.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  I did not. I just actually called it goop because I didn't know the word lab sample, I think. You know, I wasn't in the beauty industry.

• 33:43Guy Raz?

  It's sort of glop or whatever it was. Yeah. It was goopy.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:46Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And in the meantime, what were you doing? I mean, you're living in Dallas still at the time?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 33:52Guy Raz?

  What were you, what were you?

• 33:54Speaker 01

  I was completely obsessed with this project. I pulled my sister, who's an excellent writer, into helping me create an educational curriculum. You know, I mean, changing consumer behavior is like one of the most difficult things to do, right? But I looked at campaigns like Lady Bird Johnson's Don't Be a Litter Bug. When she was first lady, she started that Don't Be a Litter Bug campaign.

• 34:17Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  And it wasn't necessarily the children that were throwing the Diet Cokes out the window, but it was their parents.

• 34:24Guy Raz?

  Hmm.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  And so I thought, this is really interesting because through a very playful way, she's got the kids telling their parents not to be a litter bug.

• 34:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Which is going to ultimately change, you know, the parents' behavior. And so I thought if I could create this first formula and make it a fun and playful way that appealed to young children to then sort of bug the adults in their life, there was something there.

• 34:52Guy Raz?

  So you've got this, this product that's being developed and what are they making it with? I mean, if all these scientists were saying, hey, you got to use oxybenzone, that's the most effective way to protect your skin from UV rays and there's no other way to do it. What, I mean, what?

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, what I learned was oxybenzone is not the only way. It's the most inexpensive way. And begin, going back to most SPF was a mass product. And mass products are, you know, as inexpensive as possible. It turned out that there was a counterpart, avabenzone, that could help achieve the efficacy needed, but it just costs a little bit more.

• 35:36Guy Raz?

  Ava benzone.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Ava benzone. And that's still today, what we've used in our chemical formulas.

• 35:43Guy Raz?

  And where does that come from?

• 35:45Speaker 01

  It's a raw ingredient that you buy from the people that make, I mean, there's different brand names like Parcels that make that.

• 35:53Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So you managed to work with this lab entirely remotely? Like, you never had to go and present to them or anything? They just, they just kind of?

• 36:02Speaker 01

  I didn't have the money to go and promote. You know, I was bootstrapping this with my new husband and we were thinking about having a baby and he was thinking, actually, about going out on his own at the time. He has a background and he was, practiced law out of law school and he has a real entrepreneurial spirit as well. And so, we were both bootstrapping, all of the cost.

• 36:27Guy Raz?

  All right. So you're going back and forth and you finally settle on what you think is right? And how do you know? Like, how did you know that they finally got it? Like, the smell of it and the feel of it? Was it just, you were just using your own, your own judgment, your own instinct?

• 36:45Speaker 01

  You know, it was probably the 15th or 20th iteration on a formula that we had tweaked many times over those two years, that finally felt amazing on the skin. And it tested because, right, it has to be efficacious. And it was then that I literally said, "This is super." And the name immediately occurred to me that I had, I had also, in that moment, named, named the brand.

• 37:12Guy Raz?

  Super Goop?

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Super Goop.

• 37:14Guy Raz?

  And was it SPF 50, 15, or 30, or what?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a 50.

• 37:21Guy Raz?

  It's a 50, okay.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Which is exactly what we were aiming for.

• 37:24Guy Raz?

  And so, you get the, finally, you get the one that works? And do you like slather it on and go outside and just stand outside in the sun?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  I started wearing it every single day because I had to know over the long term if that was something that was actually a pleasant experience, right? And in fact, I've always believed in no animal testing or anything. So I often laughed and made my husband the guinea pig and would say, hey, can you put some of this in your eyes and make sure it doesn't burn?

• 37:52Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Had you by that point formed like an LLC and done all the formal stuff that people do to start a business?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, along the way, I definitely relied on my husband. He had, I mentioned, a background in law. And he helped me with registering the trademark and forming an LLC. Kind of just put a few of the things that weren't too costly in place to start creating this business.

• 38:22Guy Raz?

  So you've got the formula, you've got the name, and now it's time to go to the schools. And I'm assuming, you know, you kind of rip out your old playbook where when you contacted the CEOs of companies to play the harp, or you called all these scientists. I'm assuming you start calling school administrators?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  You're right. I whipped out my playbook and started talking to the heads of schools and school boards. And I very quickly learned that as an over the counter drug, sunscreen is actually prohibited in schools across America.

• 38:52Guy Raz?

  So you just spent two years building this prototype only to discover that you have no market, no marketplace.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:01Guy Raz?

  Wow. Your whole business model is down the tubes.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 39:07Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, how Holly eventually pivots out of schools and into retail, and along the way hires a publicist that she cannot afford and makes a connection at Sephora that she cannot afford to lose. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

• 39:33Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it was 2007, and Holly Thaggard had a big problem. She'd built a sunscreen company, Supergoop, with the goal of getting SPF into schools. But at the time, most public schools did not allow students to use sunscreen without a prescription or a doctor's note. So Holly thought, well, maybe I should try the private schools, where the rules aren't as strict. And she actually made a bit of headway.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  I did. I launched five private schools.

• 40:06Guy Raz?

  All in Dallas, Dallas area?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  No, Dallas and Louisiana, Baton Rouge, where I'm from, and in Dallas.

• 40:13Guy Raz?

  So how did you approach the schools? Did you, did you just get like a directory or go online and just type?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  I did. I think I looked in the private school directories by city, and I would call and ask for a meeting. I've all, you know, dating back to sitting under my father's desk, reading and listening to Zig Ziglar tapes, which is what I did throughout my childhood.

• 40:36Guy Raz?

  Zig Ziglar, was he just like that, like that guy who told you, like motivational speaker on sale, like for sales, right?

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a sales and marketing genius.

• 40:46Guy Raz?

  Guru, like he had these tapes in the 70s and 80s, maybe, is that right?

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. I learned from Zig so many things that I still reference today. You know, you have to have so many no's before a yes. And attitude is everything, being optimistic and thinking positively. And, I mean, I spent weekends sitting under my father's desk, listening and absorbing these neatly organized tapes that he would bring home from having been president of the Sales and Marketing Club. And that really shaped how I approached things, because, you know, those conversations with those schools, I just, I just kept going, kept going. If one said no, I'd go to another one.

• 41:24Guy Raz?

  And so a school would say, no, no interest. And you would say, OK, well, thank you very much. And you would move on.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  I'd move on, but I'd still keep them informed of everything I was doing. Because, you know, I also learned from those tapes that no is just tell me more, right? And so, you know, I'd hear no, and I'd, I'd realize that maybe they're just going to say no for another month, and then they'll eventually say yes.

• 41:47Guy Raz?

  So it's 2007, you've got this formula. You're in a couple of private schools, but that's not enough presumably to really sustain a business.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:56Guy Raz?

  And how were you dealing with finances? I mean, you had to get the product made from that. I'm assuming that lab was making the product for you, even for those five schools?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yes, they were making it in large pumps and we were really just coming up with every which way we could financially pay for it.

• 42:12Guy Raz?

  And how was that?

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Well, I know our AMX was maxed out to the limit, which was like $30,000. It wasn't a huge number, but it was always about that. And I also convinced the people that were making this product that they needed to also -- I didn't have a warehouse or anything, so I convinced them to warehouse it for me and then let me pay as I pulled from the warehouse. And then, of course, I could also go play the harp. And anytime I started to get concerned about cash, I'd take a harp job and use that to pay for the product. It was pretty messy, actually. We didn't keep real good track of the financials at that point because we were just still kind of testing this whole model.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  And you're right that that soon became, after one year of being in the school that year, it seemingly became hard to scale.

• 43:03Guy Raz?

  And did you, I mean, I'm assuming you were not packaging these into small bottles with the branding and the logo. This was just like, or were you?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Not yet. They were still in 24-ounce containers. They did have our logo, which I had created in Photoshop. And I sort of self-taught how to make a label and how to make a barcode.

• 43:28Guy Raz?

  The logo that you even have to this day, you created that in Photoshop?

• 43:32Speaker 01

  I did. And actually, the logo today, we just had a refresh on our brand about four months ago, actually, and tweaked a little bit here and there with my handwriting. I'm also obsessed with handwriting. And so we digitally used my handwriting to tweak the original logo.

• 43:55Guy Raz?

  So you've got the product and you're trying to, you know, mount a campaign and to get people to know more about this, but it doesn't sound like you're really making a whole lot of traction. The schools thing wasn't, doesn't sound like it was really working. So what did you, how were you going to build this out into something bigger?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Well, so I started just looking at what retail would look like and what is the world of prestige children's retail? And how do brands go into what I thought were some of the best storytellers, like FAO Schwarz in New York, or the now defunct Giggle was a very popular, very highly curated store of just the best of the best things from San Francisco to New York. And started down this path of going to trade shows and showing my line to buyers of Little Prestige Mom and Pop and retailers that could help support my vision and tell the story in their, in their location across the country.

• 44:54Guy Raz?

  Your husband was a lawyer, so he had some income, but were you like getting help from friends and family at this point? I mean, cause still like, right, you can't run the business on air and were you asking people for help?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So my husband was not practicing law anymore. He was actually going out on his own in real estate investing. And so we were definitely depleting all of our savings. And it really wasn't until, I think Thanksgiving of, gosh, 2008-ish that we asked my dad for $25,000, I think.

• 45:33Guy Raz?

  So he kind of saved you?

• 45:35Speaker 01

  He did. It was that, you know, every entrepreneur has the Thanksgiving dinner story. And I had another trade show I wanted to go to in Vegas and I asked, you know, my dad at the dinner table, I think, like if he'd be willing to give us $25,000. And that really forced this conversation of how are you planning to scale this? Because I think at this point, we were like literally making 45,000 in sales, I want to say. A year. And how are you going to scale this, Holly? Because even if you double, tripled your trade show, at this trade show that you want to go to, you know, that's still not much money.

• 46:20Guy Raz?

  And did you need the money for that trade show to make product to bring to that trade show?

• 46:26Speaker 01

  No, I needed the money for, to actually pay for the trade show itself, to like, pay for the booth.

• 46:34Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  And I had, at that point, also received a phone call from the skincare buyer at Sephora.

• 46:43Guy Raz?

  So wait, while all this other stuff is going on, Sephora, which is like a huge beauty company, like retail company, they also reach out to you? Like, how did the buyer even know about the product?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Well, she was a new mom, and she had been shopping at Giggles, which was that little boutique retailer that I landed at one of my other trade shows. And she purchased it for her child and also took it to the Sephora corporate office. And they started passing it around and having this conversation. Apparently, what they shared with me was that they felt most skincare today, and this was, you know, 2008, '09, was really highly clinical and built on doctor-driven brands and not fun and playful. And they thought there was something really interesting about a brand that was very serious in technology, but doing it in a very fun and playful spirit.

• 47:38Guy Raz?

  So, all right, so Sephora calls you out of the blue. By the way, I think at this time, you had your phone number on the, on the bottle, right?

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:47Guy Raz?

  Your personal cell number?

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Well, and that was so that if anybody wanted to talk about Supergoop, they would reach me directly. And, and she said, we like what you're doing, and, and we don't think that you're ready for a meeting, but we thought maybe we could be helpful. And you know, Sephora is known to really nurture indie brands and, and brands with strong founder visions. And, and she said, you know, I thought I would reach out and just share a few things that might be a good idea for you before, if you're interested in us. And then maybe you can get in touch when you feel that you've grown up a little bit.

• 48:20Guy Raz?

  And, by the way, what was her name?

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Kim Holt.

• 48:23Guy Raz?

  And what did Kim suggest you do?

• 48:25Speaker 01

  She said you need press.

• 48:27Guy Raz?

  She said, you need, if you want to get into Sephora, you got to start with getting some more press.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Yes. So in 2008, you know, this is before Instagram and influencer marketing. And it was all really about those press placements that you'd get in the magazine that showed your product. They were very product driven and that's what sold product in Sephora. So I had none of that.

• 48:50Guy Raz?

  So what did you do?

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Well, so that 25,000 that my dad, the next day left our home after Thanksgiving and he left a check on the counter and he said to me, Holly, go get your elephant. And that was his way of saying, stop messing with all these small little retailers and, and go get a big account. And so I went to Vegas and we put that booth together. But what I found when, when I got to Vegas was, was just like, I could have cried. I had really fought to be in the natural and organic and very thoughtfully curated selections of the show. But what I found was I was smack dab in the middle of all of the granola

• 49:37Speaker 01

  and very homegrown brands and all of the very cool, modern, beautifully aesthetic brands were up on the second floor. And the lady in the booth right next to me had a brand called Happy Green Bee. And she spent the whole show, all five days knitting. And, and the show was so slow that I spent most of my time in her booth, learning to knit.

• 50:02Guy Raz?

  I thought this was, you were going to tell me about how you found a publicist. Did you find them at the show?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Well, kind of. The last day, when everyone was breaking apart their booths and everything, I was, you know, walking around and someone came up to me and said, gosh, you've really gotten to be good buddies with Roxanne. And I said, oh, I know, you know, we had way too much time to talk during this show, not, not enough sales. And they said, well, I would imagine she could really help you. And, and I was like, what do you mean? And she said, you know who that is, Holly? It's Roxanne Quimby, the founder of Burt's Bees.

• 50:32Guy Raz?

  Oh, you saw Roxanne Quimby, who has been on our show. We've had her on our show. She's amazing. You, so you, you, you, did you go up to her?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I went right back over there and I was like, Roxanne, how could you not tell me that you were the, you were Roxanne Quimby, the founder of Burt's Bees?

• 50:47Guy Raz?

  She's super low key.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Super low key. And she said, Holly, I wanted to hear your story and your vision without you knowing that.

• 50:56Guy Raz?

  So then what? I mean, do you like exchange numbers, emails, you go for coffee? What do you do?

• 51:02Speaker 01

  No, it was the last day of the show. She said very quickly, how can I help you? I want to help. I like what you're doing. And I said, I need a PR firm in New York and I can't get one to save my life.

• 51:14Guy Raz?

  And?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  And an hour later Nancy Berman was calling me while I was in a cab to the airport. And Nancy is the founder of Berman Communications, which was known as the biggest beauty PR firm in New York. And she said, I just got off the phone with Roxanne Quimby and she says, I need to fly to Texas to meet you.

• 51:35Guy Raz?

  She says, I got to fly to Texas to meet you. You're doing 45,000 bucks a year in sales.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:42Guy Raz?

  And this is like a big shot PR person.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 51:46Guy Raz?

  And you're like, great, let's do it.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  No, actually, I immediately kicked into, well, she needs to know there's competition because I know this is going to cost me an arm and a leg. And so I said, well, actually, I'm going to be in New York next week interviewing several other PR firms and I'd love to schedule you in.

• 52:04Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Which was totally made up on the fly.

• 52:08Guy Raz?

  Nice. So, okay, so then you like you fly to New York?

• 52:12Speaker 01

  So, well, then I grabbed my sister, my brother, my husband. You know, the company was still just me, so I had to put people in the room to look like we were doing something bigger than we were. And I did, in fact, get several other PR meetings with quite a few of her competitors based on being able to call and saying, I'm coming to New York to sit down with Nancy Berman next week and I'd like to also, I hear I should also be talking with your firm.

• 52:36Guy Raz?

  Huh. So Nancy, presumably you end up working with Nancy?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  She did. She rolled out the red carpet and I was very impressed with, we were all very impressed with her pitch.

• 52:47Guy Raz?

  But given that you only had 45,000 revenue for the year, which is not profit, how much did Nancy cost you to bring her on?

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Well, that was the hard part. Because when it got to be the last page of her proposal was where we started talking about money and knowing that the world of PR wasn't going to talk about SPF outside of the summer months, she pitched me on a six-month contract that would go from January to June. And she felt in that time, we could in January hit the long leads to make sure we were in the April, May books. And she would charge us $12,000 a month, but only six months out of the 12. So $72,000.

• 53:31Guy Raz?

  And you thought?

• 53:33Speaker 01

  I think I might have said, have you been listening to everything that I've been talking about? Because I'm trying to de-seasonalize a category and it's never going to happen if I'm only talking to the beauty editors. And I think, you know, everybody's going, oh, my gosh, she's trying to convince now Nancy to take a 12-month retainer. And I always credit my husband for this because that sounds crazy to pay 12 months of a retainer when we weren't even making in revenue. But he was adamant about, you've got to do this, Holly. This is your path to Sephora, and that's your elephant. And we will figure out how to pay for this.

• 54:08Guy Raz?

  So you were going to pay, basically, you had to, you decide, we're going to get the best publicist because this is our moonshot here. It's going to cost us two years of our revenue to get this publicist. And you basically take the plunge.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  And I think she came down to about $8,000 a month because it was a 12-month retainer.

• 54:29Guy Raz?

  Right. When you signed on with her, where was she able to place stories about Supergoop?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  In all the beauty magazines. So Allure and, you know, just the traditional press.

• 54:42Guy Raz?

  And did that move the needle? Did you get, did you start to get a lot of, a lot of people inquiring?

• 54:48Speaker 01

  We did. And, and we also got, that helped a lot with the launch in Barneys, New York, which Nancy set up an interview with the beauty buyer of Barneys. And she actually was a skin cancer survivor. So she really, very fair skin. Her name is Bettina O'Neil. And she bought into the idea of building a skincare brand with a foundation in SPF.

• 55:13Guy Raz?

  And Barney's certainly at that time was really important, a really influential place to be.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, we launched in the Apothecary and you know, there are things that came from that that were super inspiring along the way, like being asked to, I know we got a call once from Elon Musk's team to put Supergoop into all of his roadsters that were taking a press tour down the BCH or something. And I thought, you know, gosh, if Supergoop makes sense, because the roadster was a convertible, you know, could be in every cup holder.

• 55:46Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  A lot of, a lot of cool people would see it. I think that's the year that we also were asked to join the TED conference in Long Beach and put our products into the hands of all the attendees. And that's-

• 55:57Guy Raz?

  And by the way, they don't pay you for that. You gotta donate that.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  That was 100% donation. And I had to create a custom box because I wanted my story to be on the box, because I knew that if it weren't, nobody would know what the meaning behind the product was. So I really kind of went out on a limb there.

• 56:16Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And at what point do you feel comfortable to reach back out to Sephora and say, hey, look, you know, we've been, we've gotten in a couple of magazines and we're getting a little bit more publicity? Because I'm assuming you're still not really profitable at this point.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  No. No, we're not. This was in a couple of years after that press and growing. And my revenue went from 45 to, I know, 150 to, I think, 600. So we were, you know, we were increasing and growing the business. It was by no means profitable. And I don't think I was even keeping quite good track of the finances like that. I just knew I had to keep going. And it was actually in 2010 when I felt like I was ready to talk again to Sephora.

• 57:04Guy Raz?

  You called the same person who originally called you?

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I called her and left her a voicemail and told her that I was going to be in San Francisco the following week for, I gave her a five or six day range, because I wanted to make sure that she could find a minute for me on her calendar. And she didn't call me back.

• 57:26Guy Raz?

  And so how did you get her attention?

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Well, so I felt obligated to go to San Francisco because I said on her voicemail that I was going to be there on other business and I didn't, I was afraid that she might eventually call during that week and then if I weren't in San Francisco, she'd be calling me out.

• 57:46Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  And I didn't even have a hotel reserved when I got on the plane to go there. I just knew that I had to be there and I cried the whole way there and found a shoebox of a hotel in Union Square that I remember like going in and it didn't even have windows and the bathroom was down the hall. And I was so upset because we, we didn't have a lot of money and this was an expensive, you know, thing for me to go do when I didn't really have anything to do there.

• 58:16Guy Raz?

  Does she call you back?

• 58:17Speaker 01

  So I went to bed that night and at 11:30, my cell phone lit up and it said Sephora on it. And that's how I had programmed her name into my phone was as Sephora.

• 58:29Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  And I don't know why she was up late at the office that night, but she said, I think you might be in San Francisco. And she said, well, we would love to meet with you. Are you available tomorrow morning at 10 a.m.?

• 58:41Guy Raz?

  Amazing. So you go to, go to Sephora headquarters and, and did you have a bunch of product with you, like samples?

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Oh, I was so prepared. I had foam boards with each of my products, the pricing, you know, and I had product with me and they just said, tell me about what you're trying to do here. And I walked them through my story from teacher to, to where we are today and why I needed their help and, and why I felt like they could help put a megaphone to this message.

• 59:11Guy Raz?

  And did they say, all right, we're in, we, we will, we'll work with you?

• 59:14Speaker 01

  They did not. They just,

• 59:16Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  They just said, we enjoyed meeting you. I thought the meeting went really well. It lasted, you know, a good hour and a half and, and I felt pretty good about the potential and they said they would be in touch.

• 59:30Guy Raz?

  And that was it.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I got to go home early.

• 59:32Guy Raz?

  So you go back in the plane. I'm assuming on the way back, you were not crying.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Well, actually, I, the next morning, woke up and, you know, my father, growing up, had this thing about doing things in twos. And he always said to me, the best time to accomplish something is after you've accomplished something. You're on a high, you feel optimistic, you feel good about yourself. And so whenever I had done something well, he would say, that's awesome, Holly, that's so great. I'm great, great to hear it. Now, what are you gonna do? And so I felt like that next morning, I had to figure out what the answer to, like, I felt really good. You're right, I wasn't crying, but I felt like I had to know what was next.

• 1:00:12Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, you must have been feeling pretty confident, because I think, like, maybe even the same day, you, you decided to reach out to the buyer of Nordstrom, too, right?

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I said that I was in San Francisco, talking with Sephora about a spring 2011 launch.

• 1:00:32Guy Raz?

  Which was not totally true, really.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I-

• 1:00:35Guy Raz?

  You were kind of bluffing.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Bluffing, hoping.

• 1:00:38Guy Raz?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Willing it to be true.

• 1:00:40Guy Raz?

  Yes, okay.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  And I would love to come through Orange County on the way back to Texas and share with her more about my brand.

• 1:00:49Guy Raz?

  And was she in?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  She sounded really interested and optimistic. Again, she didn't give me any answers, you know, Johnny on the spot, but she sounded interested. And, and I felt good about flying home and, and then doing the follow up that was needed to, to land both of these accounts. And I feel like that was a real important for me, was when I think about where I saw our brand, I felt like, so the Sephora demographic, the customer was young, and they're playing with makeup. They needed to understand how important it was to first protect their skin. And for the Nordstrom customer, I felt like that was the mom with three kids in tow and a stroller, and she really needed to be instrumental in teaching young children these healthy habits.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  So I felt like the two brands were the ideal launchpad for me in, in the country together.

• 1:01:41Guy Raz?

  But how do you get into them? What, what convinces Sephora to finally call you and say, okay, we'll do it? And, and then, of course, you know, what kind of shelf space you're gonna get, and how long? So what, what was the deal they offered you?

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, well, and to back up a little bit, I got home and for several weeks didn't, you know, I sent my follow-up email, my, you know, exactly as I should have post a meeting, but I didn't hear from either of them.

• 1:02:04Guy Raz?

  Oh, wow, nothing, not even like a great to meet you?

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  No, not, nothing, and...

• 1:02:09Guy Raz?

  Like the silent treatment for six weeks?

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  For the rest of that year, actually.

• 1:02:14Guy Raz?

  Oh, God.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  And so that's when my husband and I were kind of tapped out on the money side and, and we went to my brother, who, after graduating SMU, moved to New York, started a business and has been super successful, building it to several hundred people with his partners. And we asked him if he would be interested in investing.

• 1:02:36Guy Raz?

  And he agreed?

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  And he agreed. He said, you know, Holly, I'm, I'm, I think if he were here today on the podcast, he'd probably say, you know, I was betting on the jockey, not the horse. And he put in initially $750,000.

• 1:02:50Guy Raz?

  Wow. So you're assuming that, that in March of 2011, you're, you're going to do a nationwide launch somewhere, but you don't have any commitments, I guess, from Sephora or Nordstrom. So when, when do they call or when does Sephora call?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  January 26th. And I know the date because it's my brother's birthday and...

• 1:03:11Guy Raz?

  They, they called you on the 26th?

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  They called me on the 26th and it was actually...

• 1:03:14Guy Raz?

  2011.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Well, and she called and said, Holly, it's Kim. And I'm super excited to share that we are going to prepare for a summer launch in all stores and a big hit in cap for the 12 weeks of summer.

• 1:03:30Guy Raz?

  So, good news because Sephora is going to launch, but only 12 weeks and only in the summer, which kind of undermines your whole narrative because you don't, you're not selling a summer product.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:03:41Guy Raz?

  So what'd you say?

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  I said, you know, as flattering as this is, and I'm super excited and want this badly, I need to scale my size down to whatever size makes sense that you can assure me 12 months of distribution.

• 1:03:55Guy Raz?

  You're talking about the size of the bottle?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  The size of the space on the shelf, so...

• 1:04:00Guy Raz?

  On the shelf?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yes. An end cap is that big fancy thing at the end of the aisle where you have five shelves and it's full of products.

• 1:04:07Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  And I didn't expect that they would hold that for a 12-month period, so I convinced them. And this is how I really knew that Sephora was the right partner for me.

• 1:04:18Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  They listened. And they said, you know, let us take this back and think about how we could do this and assure you 12 months of distribution, which I also didn't know that that's kind of crazy. Really retailers don't launch with any guaranteed one year of distribution.

• 1:04:34Guy Raz?

  Right. And how much shelf space did they offer you?

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  So they later called and said they were excited to share that they were going to open a new wall in Sephora called Skincare Favorites. And they have secured six inches of space and to pick my two favorite products.

• 1:04:52Guy Raz?

  And is that, is that pretty good? Like, because I'm thinking six inches, my God, there's nothing in a big store. But is that, is that, were you happy with that?

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  I was ecstatic. This sounded like a dream. It sounded like something that I could manage. Again, I didn't have a team. I didn't have a marketing team. I didn't have people in the stores to help sell it. I, I felt like that was positioning us in the skincare category, which is how I've always seen our brand, as not a sunscreen brand. We are a true skincare, but all about protection. And that's our thing. So I was just thrilled.

• 1:05:22Guy Raz?

  So, summer of 2011, you debuted at Sephora?

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Yes. And I had nurtured the Nordstrom relationship along the way and keeping in touch. And, and we launched in 47 stores. So I, I had full distribution in Sephora and 47 Nordstroms and a lot of work to do.

• 1:05:42Guy Raz?

  Right, because you still, even if you're in Sephora or Nordstrom, it doesn't mean people are going to go to your product and buy it. You've got to explain, you've got to get them to buy it. So how did you do that?

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Exactly. Well, because of that 12 months of distribution, I think that really shaped how I thought about product. I've always thought about innovation in SPF and how do I create products that are game changing, that you will reach for in those shoulder seasons? And I had created these sunscreen swipes that were a way to reapply your SPF in a talette. And they were, at the time, pretty new to the world. And I didn't really realize it at the time because I didn't know what success meant at Sephora. But I would go around to stores during that period and the swipes were always gone. They were just wiped off the shelf.

• 1:06:31Guy Raz?

  Hmm. Oh, yeah. What explained that?

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Apparently, you know, the swipes were a huge hit and the world loved them. And the problem was I knew that my sales couldn't be great if there were no products on the shelf. And so I started what I like later coined within my family as reverse stealing. But I didn't know how to get product to the shelves and I knew I couldn't make the numbers if there weren't products. So I'd go into as many stores as I could with swipes in my bag and literally like stock the shelves. Like I'd give them product.

• 1:07:03Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Which is crazy, right?

• 1:07:06Guy Raz?

  Wow, I love that story.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  By the way, I've never told that story. It just popped in my head, which is so crazy. But like, I literally remember going into stores and pushing products onto the store shelves.

• 1:07:19Guy Raz?

  All right, so you are, you're now, you know, in these brands. And by the way, was there an immediate or fairly quick impact on your revenue? I mean, you'd gone from, what?

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  150 went to like 600.

• 1:07:33Guy Raz?

  In a year, in that year, 2011. Wow. So that was, and then what about 2012?

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  We kept doubling. We've been doubling and sometimes more than that since.

• 1:07:42Guy Raz?

  So 2012, you passed a million dollars in sales?

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:45Guy Raz?

  Did it now start to become easier to raise money outside? Because up until this point, it was just family, it was your dad, your brother, you and your husband.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:53Guy Raz?

  Now, to scale, I'm imagining you wanted to go out and raise more money because it costs money. You got to make the product, you had to make the bottles, and distribution's expensive. Or did you, did you say, you know, we're not going to raise money, we're going to self-fund this thing?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  No, no. And I've always known, you know, when you have this vision to change the way the world thinks about sunscreen, scaling is super important. And also, I'm dealing with a category where we actually have to convince people why they need to wear SPF and then why supergoop. So, you know, I often say, like, imagine, I was having lunch with the founders of MZ Wallace, which is a handbag brand, and I said, you know, imagine if you had to convince women everywhere to carry a bag with them everywhere with their water bottle and their wallet and their purse and their phone and their umbrella.

• 1:08:39Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  You don't. You just have to sell them on your bags. But for me, I've always looked at it like I have to convince first people why it's so important that they protect their skin, and then secondary to that is why supergoop. So yes, it's been very expensive from a marketing perspective, and I was still not profitable at that point. So raising money was something that was just a necessary thing that we had to do.

• 1:09:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And so I guess you were eventually able to raise like, like $2 million from, from a combination of friends and family and even some, some private investors and people in the medical field. And I should mention tennis star Maria Sharapova. How did that happen?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that was just a phone call from her agent that said, I'm Maria Sharapova's agent, and I'm like Googling Maria Sharapova and seeing what's in the word sunscreen. And he said, she found your product at Sephora, and it's the only product she can compete in.

• 1:09:37Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  And it doesn't burn her eyes. And so she's interested if you guys are, have... Ever thought about making an investment and actually this was a just about the same time as our friends and family was still open and I thought the first thing I need to do is get to LA to meet her because of course if we're going to have an investor come into the brand, she's becoming part of our family and so I want to make sure.

• 1:10:00Guy Raz?

  And she could also be a brand ambassador or spokesperson presumably.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we flew out there and spent a day visiting with she and her agent and you know honestly put the deal together really quickly.

• 1:10:14Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:10:17Guy Raz?

  Holly, as you grew, and today I think that the latest public numbers I've found are that you did like 40 million in revenue in 2018 and maybe more in 2019, I'm assuming. But at a certain point, you decided to open up a New York office. You were based in San Antonio. You've got a New York office. You hired a president to more or less to run the company. And from what I understand, like this was sort of a request from your investors. You're like, hey, Holly, you're great. You're really good at what you do, but like you need an operations person. That's not your strength. Was that, is that true? Is that how it went down?

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so we had our Series A followed our friends and family and one of the former partners at TSG, John Kenny, was going off on his own to create what is now Colt Capital. And he asked to lead our Series A round. And he said, Holly, what is it you want to do for this next phase of Supergoop? And I said, John, I want to build a team. I want help. I want a presence in New York City. And we decided together that it was time to go on that search for a brand president who could be the perfect integrator for my vision. And she's been now with us for four years.

• 1:11:32Guy Raz?

  And this is Amanda Baldwin, right?

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Yes. And having had Amanda to help was a real turning point for me in realizing the time to put our foot on the gas and build the team that we needed to take this and make the magic of Supergoop happen.

• 1:11:52Guy Raz?

  So let's talk about this moment now. No one is going into Sephora. Presumably, most Sephora's are closed, if not all of them. Nordstrom's are closed. And who knows when they're going to open up? Some may open. But I mean, I have to assume that you've got direct to consumer. You can buy Supergoop online. But I've got to assume that, like, probably 99.9% of businesses, you've taken a hit in recent weeks.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I mean, I think definitely we had to reset. But I think what's been really neat is we're having real breakout conversations. In fact, this week, we launched Sephora Canada. And I trained over Zoom 350 of the cast members in Canada.

• 1:12:37Guy Raz?

  Oh, wow. Wow.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  We're still there. And you mentioned direct to consumer is still very, very strong. We, in fact, relaunched our Supergoop.com platform yesterday. And this time has given us all a minute to really focus on these things and how business in general is being impacted by what's going on.

• 1:12:57Guy Raz?

  Are you, I mean, obviously, we've done a lot of companies that are cash-intensive companies and that don't have 90, 180 days of cash sitting around. They might have 45 days of cash sitting around. And a lot of those businesses won't be able to make it, even with investors and so on. I have to assume that your business is a little bit different. For one thing, you're making a product that is relatively self-stable and it's not as cash-intensive. Or am I wrong?

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Well, fortunately, 2019 for Supergoop was our year to get to profitability and double-digit profitability this year. So having Amanda, a brand president, and a husband and a brother that's all very strong in finance. We have remodeled the entire year to remain profitable and continue pushing and even spending money.

• 1:13:53Guy Raz?

  Do you think that what's happened to you and the success of the company is because of your skill and work ethic? Or do you think more of it has to do with luck?

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  I think it's a little bit of both, Guy. You know, if I think back, was it was it skill that positioned me next to Roxanne Quimby in Vegas? No, but it was very strategic in that I was telling my story to everybody that would listen. And same is true with my launch at Sephora, because gosh, I was lucky, the skincare buyer that year happened to be pregnant and shopping and giggle. But, you know, I put my number on the carton and and so anybody could reach me and that was that was strategic.

• 1:14:38Guy Raz?

  There's something you you mentioned earlier, but I want to ask you this again. What do you think? How do you think being a musician, playing the harp, helped you be an entrepreneur?

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  I think being a musician has really helped me in just learning those, how to break it down. And, you know, you can be overwhelmed if you open a picture, opening a piece of sheet music and there's just notes everywhere and staff and it can look very jumbled and like, how in the world am I ever going to learn this whole song? But what you learn in music is to break it down and learn the first measure, learn the right hand, then learn the left, and then put the right and the left together. And then, once you've mastered that, go on to the second measure. And if you continue to break it down like that, you eventually have a have a beautiful song. And I think also, though, for for me, because I started performing at such a young age, it gave me so much confidence. And if

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  you think about, you know, playing Here Comes the Bride to a church that's full of people that are everyone's dead silent, and you are the music, you're the only thing that anyone's listening to. And this is this bride's biggest day of her life, it really gives you the confidence to think you can do anything. And that helps me and has over the years as we've been fundraising. And you've got to be completely confident to walk into any scenario and and pitch your brand and sell them on a valuation that you believe in. And I think the music really is what what gave me that.

• 1:16:12Guy Raz?

  That's Holly Thagert, founder of Supergoop. By the way, Holly's come full circle with her original idea of getting sunscreen into schools. Since she got her start, a bunch of states have changed their laws and now allow kids to use sunscreen in schools without a prescription. So Supergoop has started a program where they give it out for free. In this past school year, they donated 3,000 pumps of Supergoop to schools across the country. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to write us, it's [email protected]. If you want to tweet at us, it's at HowIBuiltThis or at Guy Raz. This episode was produced by James Delahoussaye with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.

• 1:16:57Guy Raz?

  Thanks also to Candice Lim, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.