Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Briogeo: Nancy Twine About this episode In 2010, a tragic personal event changed the trajectory of Nancy Twine's life. Suddenly, her promising job on the trading floor at Goldman Sachs no longer seemed fulfilling; she wanted something more. Drawing inspiration from the homemade hair treatments she used to make with her mom, Nancy decided to create a line of shampoos and conditioners that catered to all textures of hair without using harmful additives. But as an African American entrepreneur pitching beauty products to white, male investors, she had a tough time raising money. Finally in 2013, with an investment of $100K, Nancy launched Briogeo, eventually landed it in Sephora, and—even in the midst of an economic crisis—is expecting it to do $40M in sales this year.
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0:00 Guy Raz? We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.
0:45 Guy Raz? But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned. Money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes
1:30 Guy Raz? based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?
2:14 Guy Raz? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea. What separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt.
2:54 Guy Raz? Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting and a CMS built in, so the work is production ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together.
3:36 Guy Raz? The agents bring speed and scale and people bring taste, judgment and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities. It's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.
4:21 Guy Raz? NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.
5:06 Guy Raz? If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built.
5:27 Speaker 01 So I walk into this auditorium, and I look around, and I'm like, oh, here we go again. There were five of us who were going onstage to pitch our ideas. And the four other men who were presenting all had tech companies. And I just remember being like, oh, my gosh, not again.
5:47 Guy Raz? It's like, what's your app?
5:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, right.
5:49 Guy Raz? Wait, this is a what? Shampoo? No, no. Where's your app?
5:52 Speaker 01 Exactly. It was painful.
5:59 Guy Raz? From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.
6:12 Guy Raz? I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how old family skincare recipes and a personal tragedy inspired Nancy Twine to build a natural haircare line called Briogeo, one of the fastest-growing hair brands sold at Sephora.
6:32 Guy Raz? The easiest part about building a business is the day you imagine it in your head, because everything that happens after it is really hard. The research, the business plan, the pitch to investors, finding the factory, the distributor, the shops to sell your product. Each one of these steps is an obstacle. And for the most part, each step creates a new problem. Too many problems can become overwhelming. And soon enough, it can also become tempting to just ditch the whole idea entirely. So to avoid that trap, Nancy Twine took each problem one at a time,
7:15 Guy Raz? which is good, because her idea was pretty complicated: to build a line of natural shampoos and conditioners without most of the synthetic ingredients you'd find in other haircare products. She also wanted to design a line of products for all hair types and textures. And she wanted those products on the shelves of Sephora, one of the premier beauty retailers in the world. All of these problems Nancy would eventually solve. Her brand, Briogeo, is now carried by Sephora and is expected to do almost $40 million in sales this year. But to get there, especially with zero experience in the beauty industry,
7:58 Guy Raz? was going to pose a series of major challenges, starting with finding a chemist who actually believed you could make this stuff without parabens, or sulfates, or phthalates, or any of the other common chemicals you need to make shelf-stable shampoo.
8:16 Guy Raz? Her biggest early challenge, though, was having the courage to start the business at all. It was 2010, and Nancy was in her 20s, on the fast track as a trader for Goldman Sachs in New York. And one day, without any warning, a tragedy completely upended her life and prompted Nancy to reevaluate the way she was living it, which we'll get to. Nancy grew up on Long Island in New York. Her parents split up when she was a kid. Nancy's mother was a physician, and the Twines were one of the few Black families in their neighborhood.
8:55 Speaker 01 My mom was a family doctor, and I don't even know if that term is quite used anymore. And I do remember at a young age, being at her doctor's office, and it was always full. You know, a lot of people ask me where I got this very confident entrepreneurial experience from, but I think that there was so much value and power of me seeing my mom running a successful practice, really running a business. My mom was an entrepreneur. And seeing that at a young age, seeing her confidence, seeing her joy, and the fact that being a female, being a Black female, was not a hindrance to any of the dreams and goals that I would
9:40 Speaker 01 ultimately have in life.
9:42 Guy Raz? And I read that, like, as a kid, you used to go to West Virginia a lot. But what's the connection to West Virginia?
9:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, so my mom is from West Virginia. She's one of eight children. And my grandmother is from there, and that's where she raised her tribe in a very small rural town called Rand, R-A-N-D.
10:02 Guy Raz? What did you know about her upbringing? I mean, it's like, I think to this day, it's one of the whitest states in the country, and obviously, one of the poorest states in the country. Did she ever talk about what her childhood was like there?
10:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was, you know, it was definitely a tough childhood. They didn't grow up with a lot. And the fact that my mom grew up in that type of environment, not only not having a lot, but not being able to see what success and beyond that lifestyle could look like. Because so much of wanting to become better
10:36 Speaker 01 Or becoming successful comes from seeing other people who look like you that have done it. And when you don't even see the possibility, but knowing within you that it exists and having that faith and belief in yourself, it's so, so powerful. And that was very much my mom's story.
10:57 Guy Raz? So I guess as a kid, right, you used to go to West Virginia to visit your grandma, who was, from what I understand, the like, the local beauty guru. Like, what did that mean? What did she, she like, give people beauty tips?
11:10 Speaker 01 It was a little bit different than that. I think, you know, my grandmother, again, was really kind of faced with the challenge of providing for eight children with very, very little. And she was very thrifty. I know one of the things that she used to do is she would stretch the little bits of product that she would get her hands on. So, you know, maybe she used some oils and extracts to stretch, you know, a quarter bottle of lotion to be able to fill it back up to a full bottle. And she learned how to distill her own essential oils. And this kind of natural chemistry created this unique situation
11:55 Speaker 01 that I think ultimately too inspired my mom to later become a chemist and then a MD PhD.
12:04 Guy Raz? So what, do you remember what your grandmother used to make?
12:07 Speaker 01 Yeah. So one of the things that was kind of interesting, because it wasn't really a product that I used growing up, but these kind of thick kind of butters that you could use for all different sorts of things. Really dry skin, feet, elbows, knees. And then, you know, other sort of medicinal needs, like cuts or burns, different types of salves that would almost leave your skin glistening. But I just remember visiting that house. And it was just like, a lot, a lot of stuff, lots of jars. Anything you needed, you could find in that house. And if you didn't find it precisely, it could be made or derived from something.
12:51 Speaker 01 And that was really kind of the attitude and spirit.
12:54 Guy Raz? Yeah. So you, you went on to, when you went to college, you went to University of Virginia?
13:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
13:01 Guy Raz? First of all, what, how, what was your experience like at UVA?
13:06 Speaker 01 I had a phenomenal experience at UVA. But I think one of the things that was so different starting out there was that a lot of the other black men and women didn't have the same type of diverse high school experience that I had. So I know that there were a lot of people where it was the first time really ever in their life, they were around white people. So there were elements of self segregation that I witnessed during my early times at UVA that I didn't quite understand in terms of, you know,
13:47 Speaker 01 black groups separating themselves in the libraries or in the dining halls. And it was so new to me because it just was so different than my experience in high school where everyone sat with each other.
14:00 Guy Raz? Yeah.
14:00 Speaker 01 But one of the things that I focused on or made emphasis of was that I really wanted to continue my experience of having a diverse group of friends. And I didn't want to self segregate. And I was able to really build a community of close friends that span all different sorts of ethnicities and backgrounds.
14:22 Guy Raz? And when you went to college, did you, did you like have any idea of what you wanted to like eventually do for a career?
14:30 Speaker 01 So entering UVA, I would have never thought that I would become a finance person. What I did know is that I loved music. I was in an a cappella group in college.
14:43 Guy Raz? Oh, wow. Did you, would you guys wear like matching blazers?
14:46 Speaker 01 No, we were actually a really cool hip a cappella group. We were actually UVA's first hip hop a cappella group. And so I had so much fun and that stemmed from me really finding music in high school and it created kind of this fantasy for me of one day being a pop star like a Mariah Carey. But when I went to UVA and got exposed to hundreds of talented singers, both within my a cappella group and outside of it. It was a awakening that I was just okay.
15:25 Guy Raz? This is not going to be what was going to pay the bills in the future.
15:28 Speaker 01 Right, exactly.
15:30 Guy Raz? So no, no music career, but instead you decide to study finance. And what, like, what was the idea behind that? Did just kind of like seem like a good way to get a well-paying, stable job?
15:43 Speaker 01 So outside of wanting to be a, you know, musical pop star, I also had this hobby of creating and selling things. I was very, very entrepreneurial as a child. In middle school, this is when the movie Clueless came out and those cool like feather pins were so popular. But no one like knew where they could get them because Etsy wasn't around. And I went to Michael's, my local craft store, and got ribbon, pens, all sorts of stuff, feathers, and created replicas of those Clueless feather pins. And I would sell them at school.
16:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, I have a lot of different stories of these like little mini entrepreneurial ventures. I loved creating and then the validation that came from people actually wanting to spend their money on my creations. And so ultimately, when I kind of gave up on the idea of becoming a famous pop star, I started to think more about how I could translate the passion for entrepreneurism into a career path and major. And so that was really kind of the first part of my journey of even contemplating a career in finance.
17:02 Guy Raz? And you did a summer internship at Goldman Sachs, I read.
17:05 Speaker 01 Yep.
17:05 Guy Raz? And what did you do there?
17:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I actually interned for two summers. I spent my first summer in legal and compliance. And I quickly realized that that part of the firm was just not something I was interested in. I was very, very bored. And while I was in legal and compliance, I was actually sitting on the sales and trading floor. And I was so intrigued by what was going on around me. And I said, I don't know what that is, but I want to do that. That is where the action is at. I mean, people are standing up in their seats. They're shouting across the room. People were having fun. There was so much energy. And I thought to myself, I have another summer that I could spend at Goldman. I want to spend it in sales and trading.
17:51 Speaker 01 And so voila, that next summer, I did a sales and trading internship. And you come in each morning and you never know what you're going to get. Markets are constantly moving. They're so dynamic. And not only that, there's just a lot of camaraderie on that sales and trading floor, which is so incredible. So to me, it was one of the most exciting things that I could be doing in the finance world.
18:17 Guy Raz? So right after that, you graduate. It's 2007 and that internship lands you a job working for Goldman Sachs on the trading floor.
18:26 Speaker 01 Yep.
18:27 Guy Raz? And then a year later, 2008, the financial crisis. And obviously, there must have been layoffs. You had managed to hang on to your job, but were you nervous, ever nervous about getting fired? About losing your job?
18:42 Speaker 01 I was definitely nervous because so many of my friends in my internship class had gotten laid off in 2008. It was part of the reason why I knew I had to make myself invaluable. I knew that if I became invaluable, it would be very hard for my team to lay me off, which is why I invested the time and energy into being an incredible support, not only for my team, but teams around me that needed support.
19:11 Guy Raz? I mean, were you just working all the time? Did you even have time for friends or to do anything outside of work?
19:17 Speaker 01 I was working a lot. And I think that my goal of making myself indispensable to protect my career during a tumultuous time probably put me in the position of being taken advantage of at times. There were, I'm sure, some of my classmates who would never come in on a Sunday night randomly because their boss texted them.
19:46 Speaker 01 However, everyone knew that I would be the first person to say yes and leave a dinner with my family to go into the office to work on a deck for my boss, even with 15 minutes notice.
20:01 Guy Raz? Is that something that your mom would have, would have expected you to do? Like your dinner with your mom and you get the call and you're like, and she's like, "Go, you gotta go, they need your help."
20:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, she was the type to say, you know, "Get there and get on it, you gotta do what you've gotta do." Yeah, I never was guilt tripped, I was encouraged. And so from that standpoint, um, my family and my friends understood.
20:25 Guy Raz? All right, so you are clearly working crazy on Wall Street. You're in your mid twenties, you've got a good salary, um, and your life takes a turn, a tragically unexpected turn. Your mom is killed, she is hit by a car and that's it. I mean, what, what a, um, just probably shocking thing to experience in your life. I mean, you were go, go, go, and all of a sudden, your mom's gone.
21:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, um, it was a huge shock. I have friends who have lost their parents through battles with cancer, Alzheimer's, but it was a journey that they had mentally prepared themselves for. I didn't have that opportunity. But not only that, it was the first time that I truly realized that this life is not promised to anyone and we owe it to ourselves to find our happiness, to pursue our passions.
21:45 Speaker 01 And to make the most of this life because it's so, so fragile. And I feel like I had been so naive. I never even fathomed my mom not being around to see her grandchildren, any of that.
21:59 Guy Raz? Yeah, none of us do.
22:01 Speaker 01 Yeah. I will say that my brother and I have always been close, but that experience, you know, brought us even closer. And I couldn't have imagined going through that experience on my own. And I did take some time off.
22:20 Guy Raz? Yeah. How much time? Do you remember how much time you took off?
22:24 Speaker 01 I took off about two months, which doesn't seem like a lot of time. And it probably wasn't. But because I had been working so much, that two months felt like a year.
22:37 Guy Raz? Yeah. And during that time, did you start to kind of reevaluate your own? Like, I don't know what your life was about and what you wanted to do with it. And did your mom's death kind of force you to think about, well, what is this all about? What am I doing?
22:51 Speaker 01 It did. You know, another thing that was really sad for me is I remember, you know, the weeks and even months leading up to my mom's passing. So much of our conversations were just around the fact that I was working way too much and I was exhausted. And even some nights I would call her crying because I felt like I couldn't do it anymore. And I wish that our conversations would have been more substantive. And, you know, after the experience of losing my mom so suddenly and realizing that this life isn't necessarily promised to me either, I knew that whatever I was going to do, I
23:32 Speaker 01 wanted to wake up every day and be excited about going into the office.
23:38 Guy Raz? At the time of your mother's death, was she, was she still working as a physician full-time?
23:44 Speaker 01 No, she was retired. She was retired.
23:48 Guy Raz? So she was starting to enjoy retirement and... And I guess she was thinking about a business at that time, right?
23:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, my mom was in the process of starting her own skincare line. It was called something like Skincare RX, but it was all about kind of taking what she learned, chemistry and even her medical career. I mean, she was talking about infusing plasma into facial creams, like really cool advanced stuff. And I remember she had like two or three formulas that were pretty developed. And there were some packaging. It was like these white jars with gold lettering. And I was so kind of caught up in my finance life that I kind of forgot that my mom was working on this project in the background.
24:37 Speaker 01 And it really wasn't only until I had to start going through her stuff after the passing that I found the photos and was reminded of this project she was working on. And so I think definitely created this light bulb moment and also brought me back to some of the childhood memories that I had with my mom, where we were making a lot of our own beauty products in the kitchen of our home. Fortunately, we had access to a lot more than what my mom did growing up. We had a local health food store where we could actually buy extracts and oils and butters and salts and sugars.
25:20 Speaker 01 And we were making just custom beauty products for our needs, the needs of friends.
25:27 Guy Raz? Like skin creams mainly?
25:29 Speaker 01 Actually hair care products mainly, and partly because I have naturally very curly, curly hair. And the market for textured hair wasn't really established back then. So I found myself struggling with the products that were available and either needing to supplement them with other ingredients or just create my own products from scratch.
25:57 Guy Raz? I read that there was a point where you thought, all right, I want to do my own thing and I probably need to leave finance. And I guess your brother, he's an entrepreneur too, and he started like a digital media company. And I guess at a certain point, you called him and you're like, hey, can I come work with you? Did that happen?
26:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, it did happen. And I'm just going to be totally transparent with you. While I was at Goldman, I was seeing a therapist. And prior to my mom's passing, I was even thinking about, you know, what life beyond Goldman looked like. And she encouraged me to see if I could join my brother and his entrepreneurial ventures. And he said, you know, this is my thing. You should get your own thing. I was so disappointed and kind of offended. And I felt stuck because at the time, my own thing, like, what was that? What was that going to be? That was like this very nebulous, weird space that I just
27:02 Speaker 01 couldn't possibly think of, what would I do? And it really wasn't until my soul searching journey after my mom's passing, between these childhood memories of making my own products, where my mom had gotten to in the development of her brand, and then thinking, wow, I could create my own beauty product line.
27:30 Guy Raz? I guess at a certain point, you were, and this is something that's so cool about New York. Like, the cool thing about living in New York is that there are all these resources. And I guess at a certain point, you went to like a small business library. Like, you actually really thought, okay, I better learn about what it means to start a small business if I'm going to do this. What happened there?
27:49 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I know this sounds so nerdy, but the New York Small Business Library was game changing for me because I got access to research databases and reports that I otherwise would have had to have spent thousands of dollars on. And I was typing in different search terms, like natural personal care market, natural hair care, clean hair care. And one of the things that I noticed in these reports was that there were pretty meaningful sections on natural personal care for body, for skincare, but there were really small kind of paragraphs dedicated to natural hair care. And I thought that that was really interesting.
28:34 Speaker 01 And what it did tell me was that there were very few players in natural hair care at the time relative to the other categories, but that it was also a budding space. And that's really when the light bulb went off and I said, this is a huge white space potential. It makes sense because of my personal background of focus here. This has legs to run with.
28:58 Guy Raz? I mean, so you're looking through, just like doing research, right? You know, you want to do something in natural hair care products. And by the way, what does that mean? Like, because you see a lot of hair care products that say natural on them, or you know, free of this or free of that. But what did, and this is 2010, what did that mean?
29:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a great question because the word natural is not regulated the way that organic is. So natural means different things to different people. And for me, it meant utilizing a high, high percentage of naturally derived ingredients. And so basically what I mean by that is instead of, you know, pumping our products with silicones, which are synthetic polymers that give the illusion of shine on the hair, we actually used real natural oils to do that because not only is it natural, but the benefits, the vitamins, the nutrients, the minerals within natural oils actually serve a purpose
30:00 Speaker 01 in enhancing the hair's health that silicones do not. So that's really the foundational goal of why we do use natural clean ingredients in our products.
30:12 Guy Raz? All right. So you are thinking, hey, maybe I can do something here. Well, what's the next step you take? I mean, you're a trader at Goldman Sachs and obviously you're super smart and talented, but you're also pretty young and probably don't, I imagine you don't know a whole lot of people in the, in the beauty industry. So what, like, what's the next step? Who do you call? Where do you go?
30:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, so you know, after doing my research, I realized, one, there's a void for clean, natural hair care, but there's also a void for effective, clean, natural hair care. So I had a premise that was compelling because I wasn't just kind of hopping on something that already existed. I was creating something that didn't exist. And so I had never created a business plan before, and I knew it was something that I wanted to be thoughtful about. So I did what I always do, which is I consulted my friend Google. And I Googled "how to create a business plan." And I stumbled upon a website that offered a service where
31:17 Speaker 01 they would partner with you to understand your vision, and then also give you some help on the financial side in terms of, you know, forecasting financial statements. And that's how I went about creating my first business plan.
31:34 Guy Raz? Okay, so you're working on a business plan, but you don't actually have a product to sell yet. So what happens next?
31:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, so after I had my business plan created, I told myself that I was going to tell all of my friends about what it is I wanted to do. Because I knew if I went and told everyone that I wanted to start a clean, natural hair care product line, that they would ask me about it every time we went out. And I didn't want to disappoint them. So it was my way of holding myself accountable. And so, once I felt really good about the viability of this business plan, I knew the next thing that I needed to do was to start formulating. And that's where I was a little bit stuck, because without
32:24 Speaker 01 my mom, and without advanced knowledge of chemistry, I didn't feel comfortable formulating the products on my own in a way in which, you know, I could sell them to a Sephora, for example. And at the time, I had no idea that you could outsource R and D and manufacturing to an outside company. And I only learned about that because I had told a friend about my idea. And she said, oh, let me put you in touch with a friend who created a deodorant line. And I said, oh, I would love that. And I spoke to this friend and I go, how are you making this deodorant at home? And he said, I'm not, I'm using a contract manufacturer.
33:08 Speaker 01 So this was so fascinating for me. I said, this is cool. I can actually utilize the team and resources of another company to bring my idea to life. And so I was very, very organized. And I did a bunch of research on Google. I started attending some local trade shows. And I figured out the who's who and hair care contract manufacturing.
33:32 Guy Raz? But meantime, you are still working at Goldman Sachs, right?
33:35 Speaker 01 I am. And so that was really, really tricky, because this would have been 2011, 2012. I had just become a vice president. So I had gotten promoted. But I was also trying to allocate time to work on Brio Gio. So
33:52 Guy Raz? And by the way, did you already call it Brio Gio?
33:55 Speaker 01 No, it did not. It did not have a name.
33:58 Guy Raz? Didn't have a name.
33:59 Speaker 01 Yeah. Basically, the way that I worked it was that after work is when I did all of my email stuff. So a lot of people were getting emails from me at like 9, 10 p.m. at night. And my calls, I would do those on my lunch break. Or some days I would take PTO when I just knew that I was going to have a really hectic day of calls and research. Because I had a ton of PTO, because I never took time off. So I never really took vacation. It was just more so days to work on my business plan.
34:30 Guy Raz? So you would call up, or you'd connect with Some of these potential factories and you would say, hey, I want to make hair care products like shampoos and conditioners and stuff, but with no sulfates, silicones, parabens, DEA, dyes, all this stuff that's in pretty much 99% of hair care products. And I imagine most of the time, they would be like, can't be done. That's not possible.
34:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it was very disappointing. Pretty much every conversation I had made the idea seem very farfetched. And sometimes I would get close. Sometimes manufacturers would say, oh, we just started developing shampoos without sulfates, but we need the silicone base in order for it to hydrate your hair. If you don't have the silicones, the clean surfactants are going to dry out the hair. You can't have one or the other. But you know, there was one contract manufacturer that came back to me and said, we've never done this before, but I think we can do it, especially if you're willing to dedicate the time to partner with our R and D team and to really work
35:38 Speaker 01 with us and give us some time.
35:40 Guy Raz? And by the way, I think just let's just be clear.
35:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:43 Guy Raz? We're not saying names or the name of this manufacturer because it's a trade secret, right?
35:47 Speaker 01 That's right.
35:48 Guy Raz? Okay.
35:49 Speaker 01 Yes.
35:50 Guy Raz? So keep going.
35:51 Speaker 01 Yeah. So there was a small contract manufacturer privately run and operated in the Midwest. I had an opportunity to meet with the CEO of the contract manufacturer. And I think he was kind of surprised that I was this finance girl who had this side project of, you know, starting a beauty product company. And I think he took note of my passion. And I've been fortunate to work with people who have extended courtesies and opportunities to me because the passion became infectious. So even though I wasn't coming in with a big check size or, you know, a big production run, I do think there are a lot of people that just have that heart inside of them that want to see the underdog
36:34 Speaker 01 succeed. And so luckily, I was able to get the time and attention and the dedicated lab time with the chemist to help me really tackle this project.
36:46 Guy Raz? Yeah. But you, I mean, you, you did not have a background in chemistry. So how did you even know, like, the words to use when you were talking to the lab chemist? Like even, even to tell them what you wanted them to make, like, Like, what would you say? Like, I want this to be like, what, yeah, what? What would you say?
37:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's a little hard sometimes to describe these things.
37:10 Guy Raz? Yeah.
37:11 Speaker 01 So I had to kind of study up on hair care terminology specifically. I was working on a treatment mask and I wanted it to have a very luxurious, buttery, rich texture. So it needed to have a higher viscosity. I also wanted the concentrations of what I called our NOVA complex. And NOVA stands for natural oils, vitamins, and antioxidants. I wanted the NOVA complex in this mask to be, you know, three times more concentrated than our other formulas.
37:44 Guy Raz? This is a hair mask?
37:45 Speaker 01 This is a hair mask.
37:46 Guy Raz? What is a hair mask? I don't, I'm gonna use one. I'm just gonna be honest with you. I've never, what is it?
37:51 Speaker 01 So it is a concentrated conditioning treatment that helps to repair, moisturize, and enhance the vitality of the hair.
38:02 Guy Raz? And all the while, you're funding this. I mean, your costs are not high at this point. It's just travel and stuff, but you're just funding it through your salary at Goldman Sachs, right?
38:09 Speaker 01 Yes, I was funding it through my salary, but I was being really mindful of how much I was spending because things do really add up quickly. And I didn't have products yet, so I didn't want to get too far with spend before making sure that I could actually do this.
38:25 Guy Raz? And what, what were you looking to make? Shampoo, conditioner? Like, tell me the things that you wanted them to kind of, like, the prototypes you wanted them to make for you.
38:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, so originally, I wanted to create a 15 SKU product line.
38:40 Guy Raz? 15? You wanted it to be 15, okay?
38:44 Speaker 01 15, because I wanted to have something for every hair texture type and I didn't want to leave anyone out. And I was speaking to a contact in the contract manufacturing space that really advised me against a 15 product SKU line coming out the gate. And he goes, "If you can do it with four products, it's your best bet."
39:06 Guy Raz? Who, who was this person advising you? Just a friend or mentor?
39:09 Speaker 01 So it was actually one of the contract manufacturers that I didn't end up going with, but gave me some really great advice.
39:15 Guy Raz? Which is a good lesson in, in, you know, you might get rejected from somebody or you might reject them, but you can really get some good advice from them.
39:22 Speaker 01 Yep.
39:22 Guy Raz? So you decide you're going to come up with four products. And what were those products going to be? What?
39:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, so that was a big challenge for me. You know, how was I going to create a diverse assortment with only four SKUs? So what I decided to do was to create one shampoo for all hair types.
39:40 Guy Raz? Okay.
39:40 Speaker 01 And then I had three conditioners that were texture specific. So with four products, I was able to hit a pretty diverse client base.
39:50 Guy Raz? All right, so you are, I think it took you about a year before you finally got this right. And in that year, were you telling your coworkers that you were working on this?
40:04 Speaker 01 No, so no one in my immediate team knew that I was working on this project. I had a couple of friends at Goldman that I confided in, but only a couple that I knew would not say anything because I was serious about my work and I didn't want to compromise that.
40:17 Guy Raz? And sure.
40:18 Speaker 01 I didn't want it to get out that I was doing both.
40:20 Guy Raz? So how are you, so you like were taking like a day here and a day there and flying to, to this manufacturer? And like coming back to New York? And is that what you were basically doing for a year?
40:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was, it was pretty crazy. And there were points in which I did start hitting a wall because I was getting very little sleep. You know, being on the trading floor, I was also working with the London market. So I needed to be at the desk by 7:00 AM. So I was getting to bed at like 1:00, 2:00 AM and then waking up at 5:30 AM, day over day over day. And it started to become unsustainable.
41:00 Guy Raz? Yeah. Do you think, I imagine one of the reasons why you were just grinding away was a way to kind of cope with you, with the loss of your mom?
41:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean. The project and process of building Brio Gio really became a therapy for me. I needed to take that energy and pour it into something positive. And there were a lot of people who were very quote unquote, proud of me that I didn't self-destruct or get into negative behavior like drinking or drugs and things like that. And for me, I really took the emotions of that experience and poured it into this project. And I think that's why the hours that I was devoting, the lack of sleep, all of that
41:55 Speaker 01 stuff, I just kept going because it was my therapy.
42:05 Guy Raz? When we come back in just a moment, how Nancy managed to convince a man with very little hair to invest in her hair care product company. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.
42:31 Guy Raz? Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So by the end of 2012, Nancy Twine is about two years into launching her line of natural hair products. And she's still got a few daunting problems to solve. For instance, she doesn't have a name for her company yet. And she needs to figure out how to convince retailers to sell her product. And at this point, Nancy starts to realize that she'll probably need some more money than what she has in her savings account.
43:03 Speaker 01 So by that point, the most money I spent was on the business plan, which was about 5,000. Some of the initial concepts for the packaging, which was, you know, north of 10K.
43:14 Guy Raz? Yeah.
43:15 Speaker 01 And then you factor in everything else. I was probably close to 25K.
43:19 Guy Raz? But you're bootstrapping this business. I mean, are you, I imagine you're thinking, all right, I gotta raise some money. Did you start to look around?
43:27 Speaker 01 I did. So I was self-funding a lot of it. But I knew that if I was going to start to scale this at some point, I didn't want to put myself in a position where I was completely maxed out. Because I also knew that it would be hard for me to focus on growing my business if I was thinking about, you know, how I was going to pay my rent. So I did. I started dabbling in going to investor meetups and pitching sessions, which was quite the experience.
44:00 Guy Raz? And you would go to these things and they were like, they're like speed dating, but pitching your business, right?
44:06 Speaker 01 It's so funny because, Guy, I didn't even know it was a thing. And I got invited to one of these things. And that's exactly what it was. You know, there was a line at each of these booths and you would do your one-minute elevator pitch. And it was nutso.
44:22 Guy Raz? And at this point, you were going to these pitch meetings with investors, angel investors, with bottles of your product?
44:28 Speaker 01 No, not even.
44:29 Guy Raz? You were just describing this concept?
44:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I had some artwork on a piece of paper. I would bring this thick piece of paper that had sketches of the packaging. It was really hard, Guy, to sell a brand that existed on paper
44:45 Guy Raz? I would think so, yes.
44:45 Speaker 01 to tech investors. I mean, it was kind of crazy.
44:48 Guy Raz? It's like, what's your app?
44:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, right, exactly.
44:50 Guy Raz? This is what? This is shampoo?
44:52 Speaker 01 Right.
44:52 Guy Raz? No, no, no, where's your app?
44:53 Speaker 01 Which is why, like, going to these networking events was so discouraging because I was, no one really cared about what I was doing. And I even felt like the people in the room weren't consumers of what I was offering.
45:06 Guy Raz? I imagine these were predominantly men.
45:09 Speaker 01 Yes.
45:09 Guy Raz? Probably white men who don't use hair masks. And many, some of them probably don't have hair. And also probably don't really understand your specific hair needs either.
45:20 Speaker 01 That's right.
45:21 Guy Raz? And by the way, how did you eventually settle on the name Brio Gio?
45:25 Speaker 01 I had so many like random names. I can't even remember, but I just remember I got to the point of frustration and knew that I needed help. And a friend of mine ended up putting me in touch with a guy who was a consultant. And for, you know, less than 500 bucks, he picked my brain on what I wanted this brand to be and gave me a ton of options. And Brio Gio stood out. So the word Brio is an Italian word that means vibrant, colorful, full of life. That's like our DNA essence. And the word Gio is Latin for of earth, of nature. And that speaks to our clean ingredient methodology.
46:05 Guy Raz? All right. So you are looking for money and you keep grinding away, going to these things. And at one of these things, you do meet somebody who actually says, yeah, yeah, I'll give you some money. Who was this person? How did that happen?
46:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. So there was a investing network out in Long Island. And I remember racing from work to try to make it there on time, which I did. And I-
46:30 Guy Raz? And this is in 2013?
46:31 Speaker 01 This was in 2012.
46:33 Guy Raz? 2012, okay.
46:34 Speaker 01 Yeah. And so I walk into this auditorium and I look around and I'm like, oh, here we go again. Exactly as you described, it was all white men, older men too, that, you know, filled the space. And then there were five of us who were going on stage to pitch our ideas. And the four other men who were presenting all had tech companies. And I just remember being like, oh, my gosh, not again. You know what's so hard about it, Guy, too, is that when you get onto a stage and you know that everyone there is probably not interested in what you have to offer, and you kind of have to fake that sense of enthusiasm?
47:15 Guy Raz? Yeah.
47:15 Speaker 01 It was painful.
47:17 Guy Raz? So here you are, there are four other guys, probably talking about their software as a service product, and then you present, and what, what happens?
47:25 Speaker 01 So I presented with passion, I had a great presentation, and then after the stage pitches, there was a breakout room in which the five of us each had a table where we could display our product concept or technology. And so for me, it was that, you know, poster board with the sketches of the product, and no one came to my table. It was so embarrassing. I was so upset, and at the very end, as I was packing up my table, a guy named Phil came by and said, "You gave the best presentation." And he said, "As you can tell, I have very
48:08 Speaker 01 little hair, I know little about hair care." But he goes, "I don't really invest in the products anyway, I invest in the people." And he goes, "You've got something, and here's my number, let's be in touch."
48:21 Guy Raz? And his name was Phil?
48:23 Speaker 01 Phil Palmetto, what a great guy.
48:25 Guy Raz? Phil Palmetto?
48:26 Speaker 01 Yes.
48:26 Guy Raz? So Phil gives you a card, and then I'm assuming you call him the next day or so?
48:30 Speaker 01 I didn't call him, he called me.
48:32 Guy Raz? Wow.
48:33 Speaker 01 I was on the trading desk, and I got this missed call, and I hopped off, and it was Phil. Phil had called, because he wanted to follow up, and he wanted to learn more. And that's where the dialogue started, and ultimately, a year later, after I had gotten my first retail commitment, he made his first investment in Brio Gio.
48:56 Guy Raz? How did you get a retail commitment?
48:59 Speaker 01 So after the lengthy process of formulating my first four products, I had now had a name for the company, I had the packaging design, I had done my first run of, you know, 400 pieces, or whatever the minimum was. And I was tasked with figuring out how I was going to bring the products to market. It's funny, Guy, because I just focused on one thing at a time.
49:23 Guy Raz? Sure.
49:23 Speaker 01 And so, once the products were made, I had to figure out how I was going to get them in front of retailers. And I had a business plan, so I knew who my target retailers were. I was targeting the prestige retailers of the world, like Sephora, Nordstrom, et cetera.
49:40 Guy Raz? But they weren't giving you the time of day because you were comparative nobody to other people in the industry, I guess.
49:45 Speaker 01 Right. So I knew I couldn't just cold email them. Like, that just wasn't gonna work. So, at the time, I had started building up some mentors in the space that encouraged me to go to a trade show and to invest in getting a booth.
49:58 Guy Raz? Which is not cheap. It's like two, three thousand, four thousand more.
50:02 Speaker 01 It was more than that.
50:03 Guy Raz? Wow.
50:03 Speaker 01 Because I elected to be in this very special section of the Cosmoprof Beauty Trade Show.
50:12 Guy Raz? Where is that? Is that in New York?
50:13 Speaker 01 That's in Las Vegas.
50:14 Guy Raz? And how much did your booth cost?
50:16 Speaker 01 It cost about $10,000 for that weekend.
50:19 Guy Raz? And then that was just for the space. You had to, like, bring your stuff with you and, like, signage and, right?
50:25 Speaker 01 Yeah. There was travel. I had to design the space. I needed staffing. So I think when it was all said and done, it was probably closer to 15,000.
50:35 Guy Raz? And meantime, no one at Goldman Sachs knows this. Like, you're like, okay, have a great weekend. And you're flying to Las Vegas to go have a booth at this, at this trade show.
50:44 Speaker 01 Yeah. It was a little weird. And I did, I started feeling guilty. I'm like, ah, this isn't right. Like, you know, I'm kind of living this double life.
50:51 Guy Raz? But clearly by 2013, this is like, this train has left the station. Now you've got one foot really in this, this side, the hair care products. And, and you get to this show and you're standing there, you've got your, your bottles all lined up. And, and people are passing by and people stop and start to talk to you?
51:11 Speaker 01 Yeah. And it, if you've never been to a trade show, it is a very, very overwhelming series of days because you were talking nonstop and you have to be on and you have to be at that booth because you never know who's gonna come by.
51:26 Guy Raz? You can't even go to the bathroom?
51:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. It's very hard. And I actually did step away to the bathroom and, and miss the buyer who I was there for. Luckily, they came back. But that's how it happens.
51:37 Guy Raz? All right. So you're there presumably, hopefully, to get some kind of deal, somebody to purchase, to make a purchase order. And who ends up ordering from you?
51:46 Speaker 01 Yeah. So the first day I was handing out just lots of samples and buyers were very intrigued because they're always intrigued by newness and they had never seen the brand before. But the buyers that I gave samples to, most of them came back the next day and said, I used the products last night or this morning. Like, tell me more. And so some of those buyers included, you know, Urban Outfitters, Nordstrom. And then on the very last day, the Sephora team came by. And that was, what's really funny is that I didn't even know that they were the Sephora team until they left because there was a group of four of them and their badges
52:29 Speaker 01 were turned the other way because they don't want to be kind of like smothered by everyone who's looking for the Sephora team. So when they came by, I actually had no idea. And when they walked off, another brand came up to my booth and said, oh, my gosh, how did the conversation with Sephora go? And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, oh, those four women were from Sephora.
52:53 Guy Raz? But they didn't make an order? They didn't put in an order?
52:55 Speaker 01 They didn't make an order. I got no contacts. I had no business cards. And I was actually very, very disappointed because they were the people I came to see and I left without getting any information or an ability to even contact any of them.
53:13 Guy Raz? Did you leave with any orders?
53:15 Speaker 01 I left with no orders, but I did leave with interest from Urban Outfitters.
53:20 Guy Raz? So Urban Outfitters stopped by. And by the way, were there people who assumed because you are an African American woman, that this you were making products for, you know, quote unquote, ethnic aisle products? You know what I mean? Like, that this was specifically for women of color? I mean, was there, did people make that assumption initially?
53:41 Speaker 01 You know, I figured that people would, which is why when I designed my booth, I was very intentional about having hair model imagery at my booth that really displayed the diversity of our intended consumer. So I think when people saw the breadth of ethnicities and skin tones and hair texture types, I think it helped to offset maybe that stereotype.
54:08 Guy Raz? Yeah, I mean, even when you go to your website now, I mean, we're jumping ahead, but it's like, you know, there's just different skin tones and, and different hairstyles. And it's like every single hair type and ethnicity is represented on your, on your website.
54:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, and that's, that's been a day one mission of the Brio Gio brand was to create, you know, problem solution formulas, but that really speaks to a diverse spectrum of women and now men as well. And it really just kind of reflects, I think, my experience of growing up. And I've been so fortunate to have a diverse group of friends. And I never wanted any of my friends to feel like they couldn't use Brio Gio too.
54:51 Guy Raz? All right, so you come back from that trade show and then I'm assuming you start to pick the phones on Urban Outfitters.
54:57 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. So that, that moved pretty quickly. So they, they did eventually put an order in that fall. And that was actually the milestone that Philip, who I spoke about a little earlier, Philip was then ready to commit some capital to the, to the company.
55:15 Guy Raz? Cause you needed cash to place that order.
55:19 Speaker 01 That's right.
55:20 Guy Raz? If, and by the, how many, do you remember how many bottles they bought or?
55:25 Speaker 01 So they bought the stock. They pretty much bought all of the stock that I had so that those few hundred units.
55:31 Guy Raz? Right.
55:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:31 Guy Raz? So it was, they were kind of dipping their toe into this.
55:34 Speaker 01 That's right.
55:35 Guy Raz? And so you didn't have to make extra product, but that was enough to get Phil to say, all right, I'm in, I'll give you some money.
55:40 Speaker 01 Yes.
55:41 Guy Raz? And what'd he give you?
55:43 Speaker 01 So he gave me the first time about a hundred thousand dollars.
55:46 Guy Raz? Which, and was that a game changer for you at this point?
55:49 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. I mean, that, that was huge. I mean, I knew that I could, you know, scale the next production run. It was still me at the time, so I wasn't at a point where I needed to invest in, in staffing. But it was really all about being able to scale the inventory.
56:05 Guy Raz? All right, so you get into Urban Outfitters. But then the next challenge, and I love that like methodical way you do this. You're like, you kind of break it up into bite sized chunks. Like, let me tackle this problem and then I'll tackle the next problem. But the next problem was getting people to buy it at Urban Outfitters. Like, getting people to be aware of it, right?
56:22 Speaker 01 That's right. So, one of the other investments that I made early on was a PR agency. And that was really important because I had to get the story out there. One of the things that I did that was a little bit different is I made myself available to the editors. And I told my PR agency that I didn't want them to just pitch editors over email because I wouldn't be able to really tell the full story. And because I was in New York, I asked them if they could set me up with desk side appointments, where I would actually meet the editor and be able to have a face to face connection. And so, I was able to create relationships with editors at a dozen of publications.
57:07 Speaker 01 And I started getting press out of the gate.
57:09 Guy Raz? Wow.
57:10 Speaker 01 From even some of the bigger publications, like, you know, Allure and Marie Claire and Refinery 29.
57:18 Guy Raz? Now, knowing what I know about the beauty industry from the interviews we've done on the show, Sephora is like Valhalla. Like, you gotta be in Sephora.
57:28 Speaker 01 That's right.
57:29 Guy Raz? Was Sephora like front and center in your mind? Like, were you thinking, I gotta get in there?
57:34 Speaker 01 Front and center. I mean, I needed to be in Sephora. I built this brand to be in Sephora.
57:41 Guy Raz? Wow.
57:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:42 Guy Raz? Wow. So, how did you, like, what do you, how do you find out who to contact at Sephora? Is it like [email protected] ?
57:49 Speaker 01 No, it was definitely a bit of a puzzle. And I remember one of the women in that group, who was kind of like the leader of the group, she had a unique memorable name. Her name was Margarita. And that's all I remembered. So, I did some Google searching and I found out her full name and who she was. And there was this website, I can't remember the name of the website, but it would help you to determine what the format of email addresses. And I emailed her.
58:18 Guy Raz? Okay.
58:19 Speaker 01 Just sent a little follow up email. I attached our brand book and told her that I would love the opportunity to come to San Francisco to meet with her in person, to discuss the opportunity further. And I never got a response. So I waited a month and then I said, all right, I need something that's going to make it like a no brainer to meet with me. So I decided to collect all of the press that I had gotten over the past couple of months. And I put together this really beautiful press book. And then I just decided to tell her that I was planning a trip to San Francisco, that I was going to actually be there. And so I finally got a response, which was a forward to her junior buyer.
59:02 Speaker 01 And she asked her junior buyer to take over the conversation. She's like, yeah, let's meet up at Pete's Coffee and let's chat.
59:12 Guy Raz? So this buyer says, yeah, come meet me at Pete's. So you've literally get on a plane and go to San Francisco to have a coffee at Pete's?
59:20 Speaker 01 Yes. I know, it's insane. It's so crazy thinking back at it. But it was so well worth the investment of the time and money because I really connected with that merchant. And she was also a person of color. She really took a particular liking to the fact that Briogeo really represented diversity. But she was very honest with me and said, you know, Nancy, we just aren't focused on building out our hair care category right now. You know, makeup is the thing and that's where we're focused. But if things change, you know, would love to be in touch.
1:00:00 Guy Raz? Okay, so that's a start. But it's a little bit disappointing because, you know, by this point, it's 2014. You're four years into this thing. And how are you going to change her mind?
1:00:11 Speaker 01 It was definitely a disappointing moment. And it was another moment in which I second guessed, you know, whether or not I had picked the right category because.
1:00:19 Guy Raz? Wow, already four years in, you're starting to think, oh, did I make a mistake?
1:00:23 Speaker 01 I did, because, you know, it was similar feedback that I had gotten from some of the other buyers. It was like, why hair care? Like, it's not the most interesting or like booming category within prestige beauty. I guess I was ahead of my time from that standpoint, but I also knew that like my time was running out in terms of putting the capital to work from my investors and also making that move to being a full-time entrepreneur. So I continued to stay in touch with the buyer just so that she knew that Brio Gio was in demand and, you know, things were going well.
1:01:01 Guy Raz? Yep.
1:01:01 Speaker 01 And then in February of 2014, I received an email that changed my life. I had sent the merchant buyer January's press summary. And a couple of weeks later, she responded and said, Nancy, it's so great to hear from you. The stars must have been aligned because we just got out of a town hall with our CEO. And he wants to start building out our hair care category at Sephora in a more meaningful way. And we want to test Brio Gio.
1:01:36 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:01:37 Speaker 01 I still have the email.
1:01:38 Guy Raz? Did you scream? Did you jump up and down?
1:01:40 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh, I just, it was the opportunity that I needed because I knew that I could do it. I just needed the opportunity.
1:01:53 Guy Raz? So they, they agreed to sell Brio Gio in their stores or what?
1:01:59 Speaker 01 So it was a test and the test was online only. So if I hit my targets, the next step would be to launch Brio Gio in 25 of the then 400 Sephora stores.
1:02:13 Guy Raz? By the way, you're still at Goldman Sachs at this point in, in early 2014.
1:02:19 Speaker 01 Yes, so I was still at Goldman and, and once I received that email from Sephora, I knew that it was the opportunity of a lifetime. And I knew that if I was going to do it right, I could not continue working a full-time job. And I owed it to myself to really give this opportunity a real chance.
1:02:38 Guy Raz? You had to leave.
1:02:39 Speaker 01 I had to leave, but I was nervous. I mean, I was, I was 28 years old. I was a vice president at Goldman. I was making good money. Yeah.
1:02:50 Guy Raz? But even though you were nervous, you knew it was the right thing.
1:02:52 Speaker 01 I knew it was the right thing and I really knew it was the right thing when I had talked to my brother and a couple of other friends and family members. And I was actually surprised by how supportive they were. I thought there was going to be at least one person that said, are you sure this is the right thing? Do you really want to do this? And not one person said that. They said, Nancy, we believe in you. Go for it.
1:03:16 Guy Raz? That's awesome. So you leave. Now you are, there is no safety net under you. This has got to work.
1:03:23 Speaker 01 It's gotta work. I mean, I put everything on the line. I resigned. I had no more income coming in. I wasn't paying myself. It was scary.
1:03:35 Guy Raz? Were you essentially funding the product by through the cash flow, like Sephora would do an order and then that's how you funded the business? Or were you already starting to seek out more outside investors?
1:03:47 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, I mean, I was using the little bit of cash that I had because the thing about retail is that you don't get the money until, you know, several days after you ship the product. And so I wasn't launching in Sephora until August of that same year. And they didn't place the order until July. So I left Goldman in April and I was living on no income from the business. I mean, I had some of the small orders from Urban Outfitters, but that wasn't enough.
1:04:20 Guy Raz? All right. So you get this order from Sephora.
1:04:23 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:04:24 Guy Raz? I mean, there's hundreds, maybe thousands of products available at Sephora.com. So how are you going to stand out? What did you do?
1:04:32 Speaker 01 So one of the most incredible investments I could have ever made at the time was partnering with a beauty sampling box called IPSY that curates different beauty samples for, you know, hundreds of thousands of subscribers.
1:04:48 Guy Raz? Like a Birchbox.
1:04:49 Speaker 01 Exactly. And our most universal product is our deep conditioning mask. And I thought it would be a good idea to sample that to a couple of hundred thousand people. And so that was a very difficult decision because I had to fund all of that inventory for that sampling program upfront. But getting that product in the hands of about 200,000 people, translated into incredible conversions at Sephora.
1:05:22 Guy Raz? So those sample boxes really kind of took off? Like people, that was all it took for people to start ordering it?
1:05:28 Speaker 01 Yep.
1:05:29 Guy Raz? And then how long before they decide to put you in the stores?
1:05:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, so Sephora has a cadence of twice a year in which they roll out brands into stores in March and in September. So we launched on dot com in August and we weren't yet ready to go into store just a month later in September. So once we hit March, we were ready for it and it was such an incredible moment. And the idea of having Briogeo, these four products I created, sitting on a Sephora shelf was just the experience of a lifetime.
1:06:06 Guy Raz? How do you, just out of curiosity, is it harder to keep your product shelf-stable? Because it's basically like things that degrade over time.
1:06:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good question. One of the things I'm very transparent about is that Briogeo products are not 100% natural and where we cannot find a effective, clean substitute, we will opt with a synthetic version so long as we really do our diligence to make sure that it's a safe synthetic.
1:06:36 Guy Raz? Right.
1:06:36 Speaker 01 And there is an organization in Europe called EcoCert, which declares what synthetic ingredients are safe for use in natural products. And so we use a synthetic but EcoCert preservative system that allows our products to have anywhere from a 24 to 30-month shelf life.
1:06:58 Guy Raz? And at this point now, that now that you're in Sephora, in the shops, and they're making bigger and bigger orders, and presumably they're by far and away your biggest platform now, how were you able to fund making more product?
1:07:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, so by that time, I had started to exhaust most of the money that I got from Phil.
1:07:18 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:07:19 Speaker 01 But I knew that I was going to need more money. So I reached out to Phil, put together a little deck of how I would use the funds to basically scale the growth of the business, which he was incentivized to do, given his equity position. He felt like it was a good business case. I had, you know, POs to point to. So he loaned me another 150K.
1:07:44 Guy Raz? So last year, you got, you raised around from, from a private equity firm that took an ownership stake in your business. And I'm assuming they approached you at this point.
1:07:54 Speaker 01 That's exactly what happened. Yeah.
1:07:56 Guy Raz? It's such an incre- I love this story because before that, you were going to these meetups and pitching your product to angel investors and nobody was interested except Phil. And then you launch and then people see how successful it is. And then all these private equity firms come like knocking on your door.
1:08:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, it was, it was really, it was really funny to see. I mean, I get it. I guess, you know, having Sephora behind the brand and seeing that growth definitely creates a much more compelling story than having a sketch on a piece of paper. But yeah, it was really interesting because the dynamics had changed quite a bit.
1:08:32 Guy Raz? So you are moving along, watching your sort of, your business grow and, which is amazing. I think the last I saw, and I know your, your numbers are not public, but what was reported was you were doing about 10 million in, in annual revenue and presumably at least that, if not more now.
1:08:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, so we will, you know, finish this year, close to 40 million in gross sales, which is pretty awesome. Yeah.
1:09:00 Guy Raz? All right, here we are, 2020. And you know this because you've heard this on the show. A lot of companies and businesses that have been on are in crisis. Retail is, is down.
1:09:13 Guy Raz? How is the business doing?
1:09:15 Speaker 01 I mean, I'm so fortunate guy in that our business is doing phenomenally well. We actually ended up revising up our pre-COVID budget.
1:09:26 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:09:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think, you know, the way that we think about hair care is very much from a treatment perspective, so it's less styling, but it's more treatment focused. And I think people have a bit more time to really spend on their self-care.
1:09:42 Guy Raz? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've heard that from other companies that focus on personal care products, you know, that self-care has become obviously really important as people are shut in. Then we have, God, so many crises, I don't even know where to begin. Then we have mass demonstrations, social justice movements, people demonstrating against racial injustice all around the country. You are a black entrepreneur. And I noted something you wrote on Instagram a while back, back in June. You wrote, "My bucket is nearing empty. I'm exhausted and emotionally drained. We all are."
1:10:24 Guy Raz? When you wrote, "My bucket is nearing empty," you were in New York City, living in Union Square. You're running a business. What did it mean when you wrote, "My bucket is nearing empty"?
1:10:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it meant a lot of different things. It meant kind of this renewed fear for especially black men in my life, my brother, family members. I mean, I even recall telling my brother, like, you know, be careful running in certain neighborhoods. You know, living in Union Square, there were a lot of incredible peaceful protests, many of which I actually participated in. But from my window, I mean, I saw violence erupt in protests, a lot of which were, you know, captured on social media, but seeing it from your window is another thing. And it's painful, it's hurtful to see that.
1:11:14 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:11:15 Speaker 01 And then, obviously, you know, I've experienced my own family tragedy and, you know, thinking about the families of those who were brutally killed and attacked and what they must be going through. I mean, it was just, it was a lot. And then on top of that, you know, there was a lot of outreach that I received, and I know it was of good spirit, you know, people wanting me to do interviews or be on their panel or... Talk about this and that, but it was all happening at once. And it was just, I was, I was really drained.
1:11:48 Guy Raz? Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, obviously, like, what an incredible achievement as an entrepreneur, this thing you built. But on the other hand, I guess you were sort of expected to be kind of like an example of a, of a successful black woman who's, who started her own business and everybody wanted to hear, hear from you. And that's gotta be exhausting.
1:12:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was really exhausting. And I kind of felt like, you know, there were so many people kind of coming out of the woodwork and like, I, I get it, but I don't believe that it is the responsibility of black people to fix the problem.
1:12:23 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:12:23 Speaker 01 However, I do feel that it's important that black people have a seat at the table when certain decisions are being made about progress, because so oftentimes we're not. So for me, it was very much a fine balance of how do I allocate my time to the things that I think I can be most impactful, knowing that I can't say yes to everything, but I have to say yes to some things because I can't just sit back and say, okay, it's your problem, go figure it out. Like, I know I have to be a part of the conversation. I really believe that.
1:12:58 Guy Raz? When you think about your whole story, it's just, you know, having that one random guy come up to you at the booth and say, here's my card, or someone giving you a piece of advice to start with four products. And do you think that what happened to you and your story happened because you got lucky or because you are really smart and you worked really hard and you have great skills?
1:13:20 Speaker 01 I think it's the latter plus something else you didn't mention. I don't, yeah, luck sometimes happen, but luck is not what this is about, because that means I would have struck luck over and over and over again, and luck is more of a random thing.
1:13:34 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:13:34 Speaker 01 I think this is all about the hard work and the time that I've put in, as you mentioned, but there's also a mindset of believing in myself that I've established that I think is probably the biggest attribute towards succeeding in anything that you put your mind to.
1:13:55 Guy Raz? Nancy, I'm gonna ask you a difficult question. It seems to me that so much of your confidence and your, what you have learned to be and to become, comes from your mom, from her, the lessons that you kind of... You absorbed by watching her and listening to her? And I wonder what you think she would have thought about this thing you're doing now?
1:14:22 Speaker 01 I know that she would be so proud. I mean, she would be, I don't even know if there's a word for it, Guy. Like, I don't even know if proud really justifies the feeling. But I have always felt like my mom has been a part of this journey. There have been so many incredible things that have unfolded over the course of the past 10 years. And I am a spiritual person, and I do feel her spirit has really helped to guide me down this path. And I just know that she is watching with eyes of joy and excitement. And I'm just so grateful to have had the opportunity as a young child again
1:15:04 Speaker 01 to see someone who looks like me defeat the odds and to overcome the challenges and to create success.
1:15:14 Guy Raz? That's Nancy Twine, founder and CEO of Briogeo. By the way, remember how Nancy's brother, who was also an entrepreneur, once told her that she couldn't join his company, that she had to start her own thing? Well, today, Nancy's brother actually works for her. He's in charge of Briogeo's direct-to-consumer business.
1:15:41 Guy Raz? Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can write to us at [email protected] . And if you want to follow us on Twitter, we're at HowIBuiltThis or at Guy Raz. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks also to Candace Lim, Gareth Gales, J.C. Howard, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
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