Advice Line with Tom Rinks of Sun Bum

Sun Bum co-founder Tom Rinks joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders about refining their brand identities. Today we meet Wendy, a former comedian whose sugar scrub takes the sticky-icky off your hands. Then Allyson, who went from producing reality television to trucker hats designed for women’s heads. And Zephyrus, an opera performer with a new way for kids to hear their favorite bedtime stories. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to Sun Bum’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/4f5c000b-9ccc-4c06-870d-f80444c56ccd/embed as told by Tom on the show in 2023. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo. You can follow HIBT on X https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 5:07Guy Raz?

  Visit mobilefuels.com for details. Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.

• 5:50Guy Raz?

  You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right. On today's show, my advice buddy is the legendary Tom Rinks. Tom is the mastermind creative behind some of the most innovative products of the past 25 years, including the Taco Bell Chihuahua, Daily on Tequila, and of course, Sun Bum skin products. Tom, my friend, welcome to the show.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Thanks, Guy. Great to be here. Love ya.

• 6:34Guy Raz?

  Tom, you were, of course, last on How I Built This, telling us your incredible life story. And for those of you who haven't heard it, we will put a link to it in the show notes. But basically, it's a story of how you built Sun Bum into an iconic sunscreen and skincare brand. And Tom, I have told your story so many times to friends and colleagues, how you spent more than a year looking for inspiration, everything from Mondrian paintings to Eames chairs, to Japanese streetwear, to wooden surfboards, and how all of that, and the story of that, really came together in designing the Sun Bum brand. Tom, I suspect that branding and design is going to come up in our calls today. But let me just start

• 7:15Guy Raz?

  by asking you a general question about branding. In your view, right, why does brand and design matter when you're putting out a product? Why is it that important?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  It matters because everybody buys on feeling, Guy, like everybody. So if you don't give them the right feeling that they want, whether that be in your packaging, in your advertising, wherever, if you don't give them the feeling that they're looking for, they're not going to buy. And it doesn't mean it has to be a cool brand, like a cool surfer brand, because cool is different to everybody. It could be, I want to feel rich, so I need to buy Louis Vuitton or Prada, because I think that's cool. I might want to feel like I'm an outdoorsman. If I was an outdoorsman, I want to buy Patagonia, and I want to drive a Subaru, or whatever that is. And so you got to give me that feeling

• 8:10Speaker 01

  to know that it's going to deliver what I want it to deliver. And it may just be wanting to deliver a message that it's a smart brand, it's going to actually clean my... The clog in my drain.

• 8:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  So 10 times more unclogging strength is what I need to feel. I need to know that it's going to work because I got a problem and it's going to fix it. So the brand is what gives you the feeling to accomplish what you need to get done, which is why you're purchasing the product.

• 8:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Tom, uh, should we take some calls? Why don't we take a, why don't we take our first caller? What do you say?

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:46Guy Raz?

  Okay. Caller, first caller, uh, are you on the line?

• 8:50Speaker 02

  I am on the line. Here I am. I'm here.

• 8:53Guy Raz?

  Hello.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 8:54Guy Raz?

  Hello, Wendy. I think it's Wendy. Um, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and, uh, what your business is.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Thank you. Guy and Tom, hello, and nice to meet you. My name is Wendy Kushel, and I'm from a little old town in South Carolina called Bluffton. And I have a business called Wendola's Low Country Sugar Scrub.

• 9:15Guy Raz?

  Okay. Tell us about Wendola's Low Country Sugar Scrub. What is it? I mean, I'm assuming it's a scrub, skin scrub, or?

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Yes, it is a skin scrub, but I started out with a body scrub. I'd never heard of a sugar scrub in my 50s.

• 9:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Somebody told me to try sugar and coconut oil and rub it all over my body. And I was like, oh, my God, this is the most amazing thing I've ever done in my life.

• 9:36Guy Raz?

  Wait, you just say coconut oil and you mix it with granulated sugar? And just scrub? Because, right, because sugar's an exfoliant, right? It's going to take off old, dead skin, right?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:45Guy Raz?

  And it's not like you're going to become diabetic just rubbing sugar into your skin.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  It doesn't soak in that way, Guy.

• 9:49Guy Raz?

  Okay, I got you. Just make sure. All right.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I did that. I did that. And then I, I said, I'm going to start a sugar scrub company, but I didn't know that I could formulate or make anything myself. So I, it's some, because I was in the game, these ladies suggested something that would maybe take away the icky smells after you cook, you use it, you soften your hands. And that's how I came up with the hand scrub.

• 10:14Guy Raz?

  Okay. And tell me, what, what, what's your question for us?

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Okay. If you Google hand scrub, you're not going to really come up with just a hand scrub. You might come up with like a Gojo type of O'Keefe's Working Hands thing. Or you might come up with a product that's a body and a hand scrub. Mine is a niche made for the hands and it says in big letters on the label, the hand scrub. But I would like to ask, what can I do to let the customer know what this is, what it does, and how to use it?

• 10:45Guy Raz?

  Tom, before we answer Wendy's question, do you have any questions, just clarifying questions for her?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, is it different than soap?

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Yes, it's not an antibacterial, although shea butter, which is one of my ingredients, and beeswax have natural antibacterial properties. This is something that's made to exfoliate, which is going to take away dead skin cells. But then it moisturizes your hands like a lotion. So no, it's not a soap, but it is something you wash just like you would with soap with water. The water activates the scrub, the sugars dissolve, and then these butters, you know, raw shea butter and coconut butter, they melt into your skin and you're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:29Guy Raz?

  And like buttery skin, you're basically turning skin into buttery skin.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. It's the fat you want on your skin, not inside or the outside.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  I love butter.

• 11:39Guy Raz?

  I love butter too. I love it. I love eating it.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Extra butter on pancakes, just extra cream.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  If you ever have dipped your hands into shea butter, you would love that too. It's beautiful.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  So where do, when do you use it? Is it by your bathroom sink? Is it by your kitchen sink? Cause I looked on your website too and it's, it's like, it seems like it gets rid of odors and things like that.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yes, some of the SKUs do and those, yes, you would keep by your kitchen sink. You touch the garlic, you touch the seafood, you touch the onion, whatever, refresh your hands. Otherwise, it's nice in the regular bathroom, just makes your hands feel good. You know that you're softening your hands, like someone wouldn't use a lotion as you would use it.

• 12:17Guy Raz?

  All right. So your question is, how do you get consumers to understand your product? How do you even show people how to use it? I have a lot of thoughts. Tom, do you want to start on this?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just kind of catching up. So it says, it says removes wonky cooking smells from the hands. Is that, is that what it, what does it say on the packaging?

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Yes. Well,

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Is that what it says?

• 12:39Speaker 02

  For this one, it's for that SKU, you're looking at the herbal line, which yes, it does say,

• 12:45Speaker 02

  uh, no, keep the scrub by your sink, grab a small bit, wash with water, mushy mush, washy wash, all up in those foxy fox hands of yours.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Got it, got it, got it.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  So that's what it says.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Okay. So it's the hand scrubs.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  On the package that it does that.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  So it's Wendell's, the hand scrub, the hand scrub rosemary mint. I'm looking at that, right?

• 13:03Speaker 02

  For that one.

• 13:04Guy Raz?

  And you've got tons and tons of different, you've got the gardener scrub, the chef's line, you've got a line for chefs. You've got the man scrub.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Oh, the manly scrub.

• 13:13Guy Raz?

  And this is only for hands, right? This is not foot scrub. These are not.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  These are not. I have a separate line on there. Yeah, that's another story. But yes, these are the hand scrubs is what my niche is, which is what I'm going after. Period.

• 13:27Guy Raz?

  Okay. Tom, any, any initial advice? Cause I have a piece of advice, but I want, I want to hear yours first, if you, if you have it.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Well, it's looking at it. It just seems like the messages are kind of a little bit confusing. Right? They're kind of all over the place. There's some fun. You want to be like fun and live, laugh, scrub. And then it's kind of, then there's some other ones that are like luxurious and more spa seeming. I think for me, you know, you've really got it. You've really got to get some attention. It's so hard, right? Like hand lotions and all that stuff that's out there and they know the, the, all the organic stuff. I did, I was doing probably, I don't even know that I've ever told anybody this, certainly not on air. We, Baby Bum came out with a, was going to come out with a nipple butter, a nipple cream.

• 14:19Guy Raz?

  Oh, this is the baby version of Sun Bum, the baby line.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Baby version of Sun Bum. I had an ad that I wanted to do for a standalone thing that just would be on shelf that would say, your baby sucks. Big, huge letters. So you're gonna need this product underneath, really small.

• 14:35Guy Raz?

  And that didn't make it?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  No, we never, we didn't make the product, but I was so proud of that. Only, I know it would never make it and no star would carry that. But, but it was just, you just had to get people's attention, you know? And I, and also on the, on the lip balm side, I was wondering, how am I gonna ever take on ChapStick? And I was sitting having a taco at the taco stand in Encinitas and looked over and there was a, a bar there, First Street Bar, and it said, best burgers in San Diego. And I was like, yeah, I should go try those burgers sometime. It's like those coffee shops, those best, best coffee in town, but voted best. That's the only reason I'm ever gonna stop and check out their coffee or go to the, I would've never gone to that bar to check out their burger unless it said best burgers.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And so we ended up making it signage that said world's greatest lip balm to us in little parentheses underneath it. So it was, you know, world's greatest lip balm. So my long way to make a point is really gotta get some attention. I know you're gonna describe what this thing actually is, but you know, Wendell's amazing

• 15:42Guy Raz?

  world's greatest scrub.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Sugar scrub, you know, I love coconut.

• 15:47Guy Raz?

  Best on the planet. According to some people, you can make that, I mean, I mean, Tom, you're right. How, how many restaurants or burger joints you go to this is world's greatest burger? There's at least five of them in San Francisco. And some of those burgers are not the world's greatest, but it doesn't matter, especially if in the parentheses under you say, according to my mother or something, you know?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Right, like, like Wendell's famous sugar scrub. Okay, what have I been missing? It's famous? How come I've never heard of this before?

• 16:16Guy Raz?

  I don't know about Wendell's.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know this art. So I'm gonna, so something like that, something, something to get me to think, this is really something that I haven't heard about and no, and how come I haven't heard about? How come I haven't tried this coffee?

• 16:28Guy Raz?

  I think you, you put world famous Wendell's and then you could just, you just put world famous, add that in.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  I think you're absolutely right. I don't know why, this is the best advice. I'm, I'm, I'm literally gonna change all my labels. I'm getting it, world famous, it's great.

• 16:44Guy Raz?

  All right, here's something, here's, here's a practical thing that you should try. You have an incredible, you have incredible charisma because you're so, you're jumping out of this microphone, like you are in the room with, you are in the room with everybody listening and you have this incredible personality. You need to be scrubbing your hands multiple times a day and putting videos out wherever you can, on TikTok, Instagram. Now, I'm not saying millions of people are gonna find you, but you're funny and you're, you're interesting and you've got a lot to say about this and I need to see you or other people or go out on the streets and be like, can I, could I just scrub your hands? Can I give you a hand scrub?

• 17:27Guy Raz?

  Just try weird things like that and just put it out, even if it's to 100 or 500 people.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  That's interesting. I'm gonna do that. I think I'm gonna scrub a person's hands in all 50 states in 30 days. I think I'm gonna do that.

• 17:39Guy Raz?

  That's a great idea. Or, and go into kitchens and say, I'm gonna scrub the hands of these hardworking chefs. And just go in and say, hey, take a break, everybody, I'm gonna scrub your hands. And then just leave some tins and you go to the next restaurant.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  I think that's great. It's, it's, it's boots on the ground, going and doing.

• 17:55Guy Raz?

  Going and doing.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  And I, and I think just one more time, just be really disciplined, be really disciplined on who, what the brand is, right? If you look at Ben and Jerry's and the names of their products and the humor and the way they write, they went all in on that. Liquid Death, all in on their edge. It's just so, I know who they are. When I look at your brand, I see you're over here and then you're over here and then your first spa and then your live laugh scrub and then your, no, it's coconut sugar and it's like, I wanna see like a coconut oil and organic cocoa butter, like putting some of those words on will attract that organic, natural customer without saying it's natural or all organic, but you can still put the words on it that are the buzzwords that people

• 18:39Speaker 01

  look at it and say, oh, that's good for me and it's gonna make my hands and it sounds luxurious and it seems kinda cool and you're cool, but you gotta get me there to even look at the can and that's where I think the name's gotta change.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Well, that's a lot of words on a label. How am I gonna get all that in there?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  No, you're kinda, you're repeating stuff. You're repeating, you know, you got the hand scrub, the hand scrub twice on the front. You got, and you're repeating stuff left to right on the label. You have the same thing, I think, on one side as the other. You got, you got some, I mean, you can't put it all, but.

• 19:09Guy Raz?

  No, and, and, and Tom, I think, right, I think what you're saying is, You throw those words out on a piece of paper and you distill it into one or two or three words that tell a story about you, about this product, Wendell's world famous coconut scrub, you know?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe lose, maybe lose the live laugh scrub and give a, give a something else there, you know what I mean? Cause I don't know what that is. I don't know what that means yet. I don't know what, what I'm, how I'm supposed to live, what I'm laughing at and scrub. I'm not, I'm not a fan of that. So maybe you can, maybe take some words out and put some important words in for people to be like, oh, it's natural. It's got these coconut oils and all that. It's fun and it's world famous. How come, how, I gotta try it. Commit to your personality. Like if I was talking to you like separately, I would be, I would be listening to you and just like Guy pointed out, like you're funny and you've got a great personality. Um, and so go with that. Like that's what it is. Don't try to be a spa. If you're not a spa person, don't try to be a spa person.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  If you're, if you, you are, and so just come down to the essence of your personality and, and be authentic and be vulnerable. Go all in on you.

• 20:19Guy Raz?

  Yep. All right. Wendy Kushel, Wendy Kushel of Wendell's now world famous sugar based hand scrub. Thanks so much, Wendy. We're going to be following you. Good luck.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Thank you, both of you. It was wonderful to speak to both of you.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  You too.

• 20:34Guy Raz?

  Thank you so much, Wendy.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 20:36Guy Raz?

  World famous, I'd go for, you're so right about that, Tom. Like how many times you pass a, any like a taco stand or a churro stand or, or a lemonade stand is like world famous. And you're like, huh, we don't, we're not like, oh, where's the, where's the, where's like the?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Where's the proof?

• 20:53Guy Raz?

  Where's the proof? Where's the committee that actually, you have no idea. They just write that.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Think about if you were like walking past the chip aisle, you're having a, you know, a Cinco de Mayo party, right? And you're walking past all the chips and then it's like world famous Wendell's chips. You know what I mean? You'd be like, ah, that gives you at least a second to pause, to read more, to look at the chip, to read the ingredients or whatever. But if you don't have that, if it's just like Wendy's chips, no, no chance.

• 21:25Guy Raz?

  Okay, Tom, we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we're going to hear from another caller, someone who went from producing reality TV shows to selling trucker hats. Stay with us, everyone. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting, and a CMS built in, so the work is production-ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents.

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• 25:20Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and I'm taking calls along with my friend, the branding expert, Tom Rinks. And Tom, I mean, you started Sun Bum more than a decade ago, I think. I think, you know, like, late 2009, I believe, if I got my timeframe right. And if you were doing it today, right, a lot has changed, right? The 2010s was kind of like the decade of direct to consumer, right? And in general, do you think it's harder to launch a consumer product now than, even than when you did it in 2010, or not?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I think you just have to find what's not being done. So with Sun Bum, I would just, when I did it in 2009 with my friends, we saw what was in the marketplace and we went in a different direction that we could go because we were small and we could just move faster and be with the times a little bit better. And we knew what that looked like. If I was going to do it now, I would do something opposite of Sun Bum. And so it'd be the opposite of cool. It would be like a nerd sunscreen or something.

• 26:24Guy Raz?

  Oh, I got you, Jay.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It would just be like, hey, it's just a product to protect you. And they all work pretty much the same. Buying our product isn't going to make you any cooler. And by the way, nobody's cool. Either everybody's cool or nobody's cool. So just wear sunscreen and carry on.

• 26:42Guy Raz?

  There you go. Okay, let's take another call. Tom, shall we?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 26:45Guy Raz?

  Okay, next caller is on the line. Is that Allison on the line with us?

• 26:50Speaker 03

  Yes, it is.

• 26:51Guy Raz?

  Allison, welcome. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  Sure. My name is Allison Mandelbaum, and I'm calling from Fairfield, Connecticut. And I'm the founder of Shady Lady, which is a beachy lifestyle brand. But we specialize in baseball and trucker hats that are made to fit the measurements of a woman's head.

• 27:14Guy Raz?

  Okay, and baseball and trucker hats made to fit the measurements of a woman's head, which we'll get to in a moment. And what's your question for us today?

• 27:22Speaker 03

  So my question today is, as a small business with a very little, little advertising budget, how do you get your brand out there if you don't have the backing of like, if you're not a celebrity, if you're not a huge influencer, once people see these hats, like, they love them, they love them because they are the best fit, they're so comfortable, but how do you cut through all that noise on social media and this crowded marketplace to get people to understand what's so different and special about these hats?

• 27:53Guy Raz?

  Okay, we'll get to your question in a moment. Allison, tell us a little bit about how you got into the, because I think you started, you founded this in 2020, right? How did you get into the hat business? What were you doing at the time?

• 28:04Speaker 03

  I mean, kind of by accident. So I was a TV, a reality TV producer by trade. I worked a lot at MTV, my Super Sweet 16, True Life, Catfish, all that fun. And then I had my two little kids and I was traveling a lot as a TV producer and kind of my lifestyle changed and all of a sudden, I just, I don't know what happened. I got this like entrepreneurial bug where I just kind of kept looking at things for different ideas and I just kind of became obsessed with finding something. You know, and Shady Lady, this really just grew out of me, not being able to find a hat that I felt like fit me well. I felt

• 28:46Speaker 03

  like my husband could easily throw on a baseball hat, walk out the door, you know, and looked great. I, you know, was a hot mess, two little kids, wanted to still, you know, look okay at pickup and drop off, but could not find a hat that fit me well. Like, they were all too big, too stiff. I felt like my ears, either I had to have them sticking out or tucked in. And so I, you know, kind of did some research around this and realized that even hats that are pink or say things like, you know, hashtag mom life, were still the same measurements as the hats that were made to fit men and that my husband was wearing. So I figured other women may be having this same problem that I am, you know, with hats

• 29:29Speaker 03

  not fitting correctly because they're just not made for us.

• 29:32Guy Raz?

  All right. So you started this in 2020 as a direct to consumer business, right?

• 29:36Speaker 03

  So we're actually, right now, we're mostly wholesale and we do awesome in wholesale. Like, we're in Macy's and we got picked up by Ron John's Surf Shops and really like boutiques all over the country. But my wholesale margins are really small and they've gotten smaller. Like, all through COVID, you know, prices of materials went up, prices of shipping went up, and my wholesale margins just kind of kept getting down, down, down. So really, to keep the business going and keep it healthy and really have it thrive, I need to be doing more direct to consumer.

• 30:12Guy Raz?

  So before we answer Allison's questions, do you have any questions about her business?

• 30:18Speaker 01

  When you say your margins are bad, are you selling them for the same prices you're selling on your website? Or are you selling them for less?

• 30:25Speaker 03

  So my wholesale price is $15 and on my website, we sell them for $36.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Got it. And can I ask how they're selling at Ron John's and the places that they're actually are at retail? Are they selling okay?

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, they do well. I mean, you know, I think part of the problem, and you know, I've talked to Ron John about this a little bit, is they get lost a little bit because there's a huge wall of hats and a lot of, you know, Billabong, you know, displays and a lot of Roxy displays and our hats are kind of mixed in with all of it. You know, so that is like one problem, you know, but they do sell there. But it's, you know, but even then, in a store like that, I'm still not getting my, my like point and mission across of like, these are the best fitting hats because I made them to fit women. Like, they have shorter brims in the front and they have smaller domes and they sit right above your ears. Like, they really are an awesome fit.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's super important because I know from stuff that I've done before, like hats on, like women's hats, especially trucker hats, trying to fit them, really tough. Like you say, the ears stick out, you know, definitely if you don't have it, like show, show what that looks like on your website or show that a diagram of the problem of the hat world.

• 31:38Guy Raz?

  To lean into that, yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  For women. And then, you know, the double conundrum for you is it's not just the fit, right? Fit and fashion and there's so many brands. And so you not only have to have a better fit, which you do, it's a great looking hat. You have to have fashion, you have to know what's selling and you have to know what icons they want. So you have to be up on top of, you know, looking at the Ascot and Heart or Aviator Nation. What are they doing and not trying to think of it so much yourself, but trying to see what's really, really popular out there. You know, I know the happy faces. I think you have a happy face on your site.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  We do. This is a nice tote right next to me.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, some of those things are just those iconic pieces that people are actually, women are actually looking for. So it's kind of, you're kind of, you've got, you've got the hat that fits good, but you just have to be so on top of fashion.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  And then, you know, looking at your website, I just see, you know, there's you do beanies as well. And let me go back to that, like, like shady lady. Tell me about that one. I'm not so sure. Everybody wants to be a shady lady. What is it? And, and, you know, do you need like a thing underneath it? That's like custom shade since 2020, like something that says, oh, this is for shade. Like if the mission was more, because it's called shady lady to give shade to your face, which is so important. Then beanies don't make sense and you know tote bags don't super make sense unless they're a free gift. If you buy so much, but just leaning in to protection and face protection for women, especially with these hats.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  And staying super focused. So you're doing, you're doing big beach hats with big brims. You're doing visors, you're doing, you're doing lifeguard hats, you're staying in that lane. So you're really focused on the missional part of why you're doing this as opposed to the, the fashion part is huge. But if you have a little, little mission underneath it, it's like you'll be protecting your face. And that's really what it's all about.

• 33:42Guy Raz?

  I think, Tom, I think that's such an important point because. If ultimately, like you can create this wormhole in a crowded market, crowded category, right? Hats are crowded. But basically, what you're saying is, look, these are designed for women. And it doesn't, that doesn't jump right out at you in the way that you, you put this out on the website. So it's important to pull that out to make it clear that, you know, these are designed for women's heads. These are designed to look great on women. You know, Chip Wilson did this with Lululemon when he introduced that product, you know, 20 years ago and revolutionized, you know, activewear and yoga wear. Essentially, what you're saying is, this is designed for women. And to Tom's point, it's designed to protect you from the sun.

• 34:24Guy Raz?

  And I, you mentioned that it's really hard to get attention where you don't have celebrities or big influencers, but there are micro influencers who are focused on, on skincare and on protecting your skin from the sun, on using products like Tom's, you know, sun balm and other skincare products. It seems to me that if you can connect with one of these micro influencers, and it might cost you a thousand bucks, not that much, to get them to wear the hat and to talk about why this hat is so important as part of a whole regimen of skin protection for women, that could be an interesting wormhole.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yes. No, definitely. Definitely.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  I 100% agree. I think, I mean, I'm not the best D to C guy, but I would too, to your approach it. I would, I would do exactly what Guy said with some micro influencers to try to get some, some drive to your website.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  And then I would, you know, sun balm in the early days, you know, in Florida, we would give it to the breakers. We would give it to like the Four Seasons. And just tell them, you know, they'd be like, we don't have, we don't need it. We don't sell sunscreen or we already got plenty of sunscreen. Just take it and I'll come back next weekend. And if you don't want it, you know, if you didn't sell any, then you just, we'll just take it back or you could throw it away. And if it's sold, you can order some more. Early on, some of those breaks, that they would take it and they would sell it and then they would place an order. And as soon as they did, whether it was the breakers or the Four Seasons or whoever, we would just use that. The breakers carries it down, down the street. You should care.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  The Four Seasons, so all those aspirational hotels, I would go to some really high end hotels. And I think you look, you seem like a good salesperson and your product looks great. And I would, I would get just, I would do whatever it took to get into that one hotel. And then you go to the next hotels and say, hey, they, they have it. And they're like, whoa, it must be something if the Four Seasons is carrying it. I think a high end retail is a cheaper strategy, um, long term than trying to think about this D to C. But again, I'm not a D to C guy.

• 36:29Speaker 03

  No, I'm, I'm also not opposed to that. If like a big hotel, you know, yes, yes, please, I would totally be into that.

• 36:36Guy Raz?

  I, I would also, and this is not a shot in the dark. I mean, I've, we've, we've seen small, small brands do this with great success, which is to try and find, um, some kind of brand collaboration. You're seeing, again, you're seeing Liquid Death do this with different types of brands. These really interesting collaborations with, with makeup. It's good carry, you know, Rihanna and Fenty did it with ketchup. I could, I could imagine some kind of collaboration with a sunscreen or sun, you know, sun lotion brand that is designed for the face, right? Whether it's a, we're talking about Sun Bum here, but it could be, you know, Super Goop or, or, you know, or, or another, or even a small up and coming brand that seems like it's, you know, gaining some traction.

• 37:17Guy Raz?

  That might be easier to kind of reach some kind of collaboration where it's like hat and sunscreen together to protect your, your face. And you also, right, you also look great and it's designed for women's heads and, and, and that kind of thing.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that's an awesome idea. That's awesome.

• 37:34Guy Raz?

  Tom, any last minute advice for Allison? Words of wisdom?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  I know how hard it is, Allison, okay? I feel you so bad. I know it's so hard, right? I mean, I used to hawk t-shirts at Michigan games, like, and it's just so hard to keep going. But your product looks really, really, really great. And that's the bottom line. If you have a great product, you can make, you will make it. So it's really just hustling more and getting it in the right placement. And again, I would, I would say because it's so expensive and because you don't have your margins, those resorts can go higher. They can have a $50 trucker hat. You know what I mean? And you can make the money, but you gotta make the money. So you gotta go places where you can charge enough so you can stay in business and get these hats over the line.

• 38:22Speaker 03

  Yes. Thank you so much, guys. That was amazing.

• 38:25Guy Raz?

  Thanks, Allison. Allison Mandelbaum, Shady Lady. Good luck. We'll be following you.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 38:29Guy Raz?

  Bye-bye.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  Bye.

• 38:32Guy Raz?

  Tom, we're going to take another short break, but when we come back, one more call about a product that lets you read a bedtime story, even if you're far away from your kids. Stick around. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.

• 38:58Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I am Guy Raz, and I'm with Tom Rinks, founder of Sunbum. And we're taking questions from small business owners. And all right, Tom, let's bring on another caller. Hello, caller. Is it Zephiris?

• 39:15Speaker 04

  Zephiris, perfect.

• 39:17Guy Raz?

  Zephiris.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:18Guy Raz?

  Hello, Zephiris. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a quick little bit about your business.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  Sure. My name is Zephiris White. I'm calling from New York City, and my company is Read2Me. We invented and sell the Read2Me Recordable Book Buddy, which is a simple device that lets you record yourself reading pretty much any children's book. Then it attaches to the back cover of that book, and then the child in your life can hear you read to them without any screens whenever they want, even when you can't be together.

• 39:50Guy Raz?

  OK, all right. And Zephiris, what's your question that you brought for us?

• 39:54Speaker 04

  So it's a pretty unique product. There's not really anything like it out there, which is great. However, no one's searching for it. So like, no one's going online and searching for products to help me read to my kid when I'm away on business. So I'm looking for some guidance on maybe specific channels or ideas to help raise awareness of maybe the need for the product.

• 40:18Guy Raz?

  All right. All right, let's break it down. So this is a... Can you describe this product? It's like a recording device that you slide into a book, and then you record your voice reading the book, and then you hand that whole thing to a child, and then they can just listen to you reading it?

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's correct. It's probably about the size of a ruler and there are 21 buttons on the side.

• 40:41Guy Raz?

  Yep.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  It's completely contained. It doesn't require any apps or anything. So it's not going to become obsolete and it uses solid state memory. So it just attaches to the back cover of the book. So once you've recorded, then you give the book to the child and they can just open it up and press a button and hear that page, flip over to the next one, hear the next page.

• 41:01Guy Raz?

  Zephros, tell me what you, you started this a couple of years ago. What were you doing at the time? Were you in book sales or in technology? Like what's your, is that your profession?

• 41:12Speaker 04

  No, not at all. I'm actually, I'm a specialty performer with the Metropolitan Opera, which means-

• 41:19Guy Raz?

  You're an opera singer?

• 41:21Speaker 04

  I'm not, no. Actually, if you go to the opera and you see someone on stage, but they're not singing, but maybe they're juggling fire or sword fighting or falling downstairs, that's me.

• 41:33Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 41:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. So not really anything to do with books, but books have always been a huge part of my life.

• 41:38Guy Raz?

  That's amazing. So how, so you're the guy like swallowing the fire swords?

• 41:42Speaker 04

  Yep, that's me. Not swallowing the fire swords, but I do do quite a bit of fire stuff.

• 41:47Guy Raz?

  So how did, how did this, how did this idea come about?

• 41:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, so this really started about 40 years ago. When I was little, my grandma lived pretty far away and she used to get picture books and record herself reading the book onto those old cassette tapes. And then she'd pack it up and send it and my sister and I would listen on the cassette tape to grandma read us the books. Then flash forward several decades, my sister had kids of her own. So we pulled out grandma's old tapes, thinking it'd be great for them to hear their great grandma. But if you've tried to listen to those old tapes, they degrade over time and they were just unusable. So that's when I started thinking about the idea that

• 42:33Speaker 04

  it'd be great if there was something out there that would, would hold that recording forever.

• 42:39Guy Raz?

  And how did you develop it? How did you even crack this thing? Was it, where did you start?

• 42:46Speaker 04

  So that was a real stroke of luck. I met my partner, Arden, who, she's a single mom, so we did a lot of reading to her son. But she also is a former Navy engineer. And one time, yeah, really helpful. One time, I was talking about, the idea came up and I was talking about it. I was like, do you think you could design the circuitry for something like that? And she was like, yeah, I used to work on fighter jets. I think I can do that. So it's a two-person show. It's just her and I. We designed it, had it manufactured, ordered 5,000 of them, stacked them up in our apartment. We do all the marketing ourselves, all the fulfillment, all the sales. So, yeah, that was kind of the genesis of the product.

• 43:29Guy Raz?

  All right. So Zephyrus, your question is, how do you get people to know about this thing? Right? Awareness, that's your question, right?

• 43:36Speaker 04

  Awareness, right. We started wholesaling to indie bookshops because we figured we had a captive audience. And that's been going very well, but it's a relatively small audience. So, yeah, so we're just trying to generate awareness and looking for specific channels that would be most productive for that.

• 43:54Guy Raz?

  I have an idea. Tom, do you want to go first or do you want me to start? You start. Okay, I'll start. Okay. I think that your marketing focus for the short term, and maybe short to medium term, needs to entirely be grandparents, right? Because eventually it's uncles and aunts and maybe, you know, if there's like, if the parents are divorced and one of the parents can't see the kid all the time. But I think, because grandparents have cash, they got money usually, right? And this is something you can imagine them saying, yeah, I want to do this. Now, it doesn't seem very hard to do. I'm looking in the instructions that, you know, so you get a grandparent recording it. I think that

• 44:38Guy Raz?

  Obviously, the way people market products, and especially direct to consumer products, is through social media marketing. And there are influen- there are micro-influencers in every category. There are tons of grandparent micro-influencers. These are people who charge a little bit of money to talk about products. And there are probably some with 10,000 followers or 5,000 followers. But that, if they can show this product and how it's being used by their grandchild, that, I think, is a way to start. Tom, what do you think?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've got so many thoughts. I'm just looking at the website.

• 45:10Guy Raz?

  Uh huh.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, people who know me know I'm super brutally honest and-

• 45:16Guy Raz?

  Sure. We need this. This is what this is for, Tom.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Bring it on. They're just like, as I was coming to get on this podcast, they were like, you know, don't crush any souls, crush any, don't crush the spirits like you do. No, I'm all ready. I'm prepared.

• 45:28Guy Raz?

  But he's girding himself, Tom.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Yep. Okay.

• 45:31Guy Raz?

  He's ready.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  So I'll start by saying, I think this is a genius product. That's unbelievable, to be honest with you. Okay? And I see huge space for this. I think the idea is great. I think the execution is tough, man. I think the website's tough. I think the photography is tough. I think the colors that you chose back in the day were tough. Because you're not that, right? But in a world of Apple, you know, this just can't exist like this for such a great idea. But it's such a great idea. I would put, I would go all in. You're onstage, and I know that's your life. But man, you gotta, if you're gonna do something like this, needs to be completely redesigned or retouched. Doesn't have to be, not the

• 46:15Speaker 01

  technical parts of it, just the aesthetic parts of it.

• 46:18Guy Raz?

  The way it looks.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  And the way it looks and who you're focused on selling. So I would have another idea for this on top of Guy's idea. I, I mean, Arden, you said she was in the Navy? Yeah, she was. Yeah. Okay. To me, I would focus this whole thing initially. I mean, not the whole thing, but 99% of it. On military.

• 46:40Guy Raz?

  Ah.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Military.

• 46:42Speaker 04

  Several to, yeah. To military, deployed military members.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  I want to say there's a hundred thousand parents deployed every year, right? Which makes whatever that is 250,000 kids that are without parents to read them every night. I don't know how many millions of stories that are a year that aren't getting read to.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  But I would, there's, there's places that she should know that she shopped at called the Navy Exchange.

• 47:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  And the government has set up all these stores for all of the military veterans, their families on each base. I walked one once and they're like a Walmart. They're huge.

• 47:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  But they let all of the people who are serving our country get discounted gas, discounted food, discounted, and they're gigantic. And you have to be in the military to get it. And to me, if I saw this and it said, read to me, and you know, just because you're not home, doesn't mean you can't read to your child every night. And I see a kid in his bed with his teddy bear and you, you kind of push this straight towards the military.

• 47:49Guy Raz?

  Oh, such a great idea.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  I swear if I was, if I'm, so if I'm walking around Barnes and Noble, I don't know if I'm not a grandpa or I'm not thinking about it or I don't get it. But if I'm in one of those stores away from my family and I see, read to me, you know, you may not be there, but you can still read to them. And I see that and it looks like it was made for me. I'm, I'm getting that because I, that's going to pull every heart string.

• 48:14Guy Raz?

  That's a great idea. Tom, it's also, it's also a world where you could, where Zephyrus could create a program where people could buy one or donate one to somebody deployed, to a deployed, you know, someone deployed on a ship or deployed on, you know, on a mission somewhere around the world, right? You have a program on the site where it's like, hey, this Christmas, send one. To, you know, a soldier, marine.

• 48:40Speaker 04

  Oh, that's, that's an amazing idea. Yeah, that's fantastic.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  I love it. And, and you know, you're not trying to, when you go in there to sell them, you're not selling them a candy bar and you kind of pop, you know? You're not, you're not doing that. You're going to sell them something that their servicemen need and would benefit them. And that's why they exist in the first place. So you, you're in with that kind of a, with that kind of a store is just like, it seems like a no brainer to me. And I would, I would focus the marketing, the packaging, the website, all of that, just straight ahead at that. Like I see there's a, a kid on a blue velvet sofa with nail trim, you know, sitting there reading that book. No, it's a kid in bed with his teddy bear and his service father or mother, you know, he hears that voice to

• 49:25Speaker 01

  them. And you could, so you'd show them kind of recording it. I would go straight to, I would go straight to military. It's huge, huge.

• 49:33Guy Raz?

  It's a great idea. Zephrys White, your product is called Read To Me. We're going to be following it. Congrats. Thanks for calling in and good luck.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Amazing, amazing product.

• 49:43Speaker 04

  Thank you so much. This has really been a treat. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, guys.

• 49:46Guy Raz?

  Um, Tom, thank you so much for coming, coming back onto the show, coming out of this show and helping me dole out some advice. Oh, I think, I think it was helpful. I hope it was helpful.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. They were great, man. That was, those, those were some good guests. I liked it. Anytime, man. You're the best. I love you. Everybody loves you. I mean, let me tell your viewing audience, you didn't pay me to say this. You didn't pay me anything to do this. Um, but you know, you, everybody, whatever you think of Guy Raz, you're right. He is, he is an amazing man. So glad, glad for your success.

• 50:16Guy Raz?

  Tom, get on, now I don't even know what to say.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  No, you're good. You're good, man.

• 50:21Guy Raz?

  Well, thank you, Tom.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  I don't like too many people and I like you.

• 50:25Guy Raz?

  By the way, if you have not heard Tom Rinks's episode, you've got to go back and check it out. Just scroll up in your podcast queue. We'll put a link in the, in the description below. Check it out. It is an incredible story. If you want to learn anything about branding, about design, you've got to hear that episode. Um, thank you for listening to the show this week. If you are working on a business and you've got a problem that you need some advice on, you want to be on the show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the issues or questions that you would like some help with. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. Because people sometimes forget. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected],

• 51:10Guy Raz?

  or you can call 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. Oh, and one more thing. Don't forget to sign up for my new newsletter. You can sign up at guyraz.com. It's free and it's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. And we'll put all of this information in the show notes. And thanks. We'll see you back here next week. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Katherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson.

• 51:55Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.