Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Advice Line with Randy Goldberg of Bombas About this episode Bombas co-founder and Chief Brand Officer Randy Goldberg joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders about building brands and reaching new communities.
Today we meet Rivky, an Orthodox Jewish woman who's redefining modest clothing for plus-size women. Then Shyam, a rocket engineer who wants to introduce Americans to a popular South Asian tabletop game. And Änna, a boutique owner who wants to translate her hip brick-and-mortar vibes into the digital space.
If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.
And check out Bombas's founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/ec5eed7b-0786-4c23-86fd-fd7827031188/embed from Randy’s first appearance on the show in 2022.
This episode was produced by Alex Cheng with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.
You can follow HIBT on X https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 10,634 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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5:18 Guy Raz? Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected] .
5:57 Guy Raz? And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me on today's episode is the one and only Randy Goldberg. He's one of the founders and the chief branding officer of Bombas. Randy, it's great to have you back on the show. Welcome.
6:25 Speaker 01 So great to be here.
6:27 Guy Raz? So Randy, most, most people know Bombas because of course of their socks. You guys took on a boring and largely ignored category in 2013, and you built it into a massive brand. And we had you and your co-founder, David Heath, on How I Built This. I think this was back in September of 2022. And if anyone listening has not heard it, please scroll back and listen to the episode of Bombas. We'll put the link in the podcast description as well. You should really check out. It's a great episode. Just to kind of paraphrase, sorry, you guys actually, you and David actually met at a previous job. You were working at a startup called Urban Daddy. And then eventually you start talking about building your own business. And then basically you came up with this idea because you guys read a report
7:10 Guy Raz? that socks were the single most requested item in homeless shelters. And you wanted to figure out, how can we address this? And that was Bombas because you give a pair to people in need when you sell them. You guys are still running the company today.
7:24 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
7:25 Guy Raz? You've been there since the very beginning. Tell me a little bit, Randy, about how, you know, it's a different environment, right? There's more competitors. A lot of people have seen the success of Bombas and have come into this space. And you guys have expanded out way beyond socks to T-shirts and all kinds of things. Tell me how you guys stay out ahead, you know, in a much more competitive environment.
7:48 Speaker 01 Staying ahead, maybe kind of counterintuitively, is not about trying to run as fast as you can. It's about staying focused on the things that you do best, the things that you're most confident in as a business. Sure, trying to see around the corner a little bit, but not at the expense of really understanding who you are as a business. I think as you grow as a business, you have a better and truer sense of the things that really set you apart in the marketplace and that you feel that you do well enough that you could teach other people. And I think you have to press your advantages and explore and stay curious, but stay focused and stay curious. That's the balance.
8:29 Guy Raz? Yeah. Randy, what do you say we take a call?
8:32 Speaker 01 Let's do it.
8:33 Guy Raz? All right, let's do it. Caller number one, first caller, are you on the line?
8:37 Speaker 02 Hi, I'm here.
8:38 Guy Raz? Hello, hello. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just briefly about your business.
8:44 Speaker 02 My name is Rifki Itzkowicz. I am an Orthodox Jewish fashion designer and body positive advocate from Queens, New York, and I am the founder of Impact Fashion, a size-inclusive modest clothing line available in sizes 2 through 28.
9:00 Guy Raz? Amazing. Okay, so Rifki, please tell us the question that you brought for us today.
9:04 Speaker 02 So Impact Fashion is very well-known in the Orthodox Jewish community. I was able to use word of mouth, social media, personal networking to grow the brand, and it was a lot of work, but it wasn't particularly difficult because it was easy to speak to my community about the kind of nuances and issues that we encounter because they're the issues that I encounter as well. And I also had immediate credibility, speaking as a member of the community.
9:31 Guy Raz? Okay.
9:31 Speaker 02 There are lots of other modest dressing communities, whether that's for religious reasons or just women who choose to dress this way. And particularly with the religious communities, those tend to be somewhat insular, you know, with their own lingo and their own concerns and their own nuances. And I don't really know how to talk to them.
9:50 Guy Raz? Got it.
9:50 Speaker 02 So do you have any advice on strategies or methods to break into those communities?
9:56 Guy Raz? All right, we're going to get to your question in a moment, but first, a couple of questions for you, Rifki. So let's start with, okay, so you are an Orthodox Jewish woman, you are a fashion designer, and you've got this company called Impact Fashion, where you make size-inclusive dresses for women who dress modestly. So just to kind of, because we're obviously, this is audio, modesty means like arms covered, legs covered, not jeans or pants, but like dresses kind of thing?
10:20 Speaker 02 So not specifically dresses.
10:22 Guy Raz? Mm-hmm.
10:22 Speaker 02 What modesty means changes depending on who you're talking to. But in the Orthodox Jewish tradition, you're talking about covered elbows, covered knees, and covered collarbones. That's that two bumps right at the base of your neck.
10:34 Guy Raz? Yep.
10:34 Speaker 02 And the women generally don't wear pants. So I'll wear like a skirt and a top. Most of what I design is dresses. I just like to wear dresses, but I do have occasionally some separates on the line as well.
10:45 Speaker 01 Very cool.
10:45 Guy Raz? Cool. I'm looking at your website now. These are beautiful designs and cuts and, I mean, just the- Really, you're super talented.
10:54 Speaker 01 I agree, Guy. I looked at the site. Everything looks so cool.
10:58 Guy Raz? By the way, just generally, women in general, you see that long dresses are back. They've been back in the style for a while.
11:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, it's actually part of like a reaction to COVID because we all went a little bit more comfortable and longer is easier to wear. But even to speak to that point, even the long dresses that you would see in, let's say, a regular department store, a lot of them will have really high slits or they'll be made from a sheer fabric.
11:21 Guy Raz? Ah, yeah.
11:21 Speaker 02 So those are not things that women from my community would wear without altering them, which was a lot of what I was kind of running up against when I was working as a seamstress when I was finishing up college. So those kinds of alterations are the kinds of things that, I mean, Orthodox Jewish women make those alterations all the time.
11:38 Guy Raz? Like they would sew up a slit?
11:40 Speaker 02 Exactly. So we would sew up a slit or fill in the space or add a lining or build up a neckline or, I mean, any of two dozen alterations that you would need to make to something. So when Impact Fashion first started in 2016 as a wholesale line, it was actually part of a whole movement of Orthodox Jewish brands that were designed with this modesty first approach.
12:00 Guy Raz? Is it just you working on this business right now?
12:03 Speaker 02 I'm the only full-time person. I do have a graphic designer that I bring in as needed and like some freelancers here and there. I also operate out of my parents' house. So as needed, my younger brother and my mom and occasionally my dad pack orders.
12:17 Guy Raz? Where, so where are you manufacturing the dresses now?
12:19 Speaker 02 New York City, baby.
12:21 Guy Raz? In New York City? Wow, because your prices are not outrageous. I mean, they're $200, $300 and these are high quality, made in New York City. That's amazing.
12:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, so I have a fantastic factory that I work with here in the Garment Center.
12:34 Guy Raz? Wow.
12:34 Speaker 02 And the reason, I've kept it in New York City for a couple of reasons, most of them around like the ethical work experiences and sustainability factors. I just like the idea of something not having to sit on a boat for a month. But aside from that, it's also about being able to do these really small batches on pre-orders.
12:51 Guy Raz? All right, you obviously have a captive audience in the Orthodox Jewish community. They, you're from the community and people know about this and it serves a real need. The question is, how can you find other communities, religious communities, communities of women who dress modestly? There are plenty of them in the United States and even overseas. How do you find those communities and increase the market size? Randy, do you have, before we answer Rafi's question, do you have any questions for her about the business?
13:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. I do have a couple of related questions. Just in terms of the Orthodox Jewish community, the Frum community, do you feel like you've plateaued in terms of your growth?
13:30 Speaker 02 So I would say that in the Orthodox community as a whole, if you would pick 10 women at random, probably six have heard of me. But I'm also starting to see the end of the growth opportunity there. I'm starting to see the ceiling.
13:43 Speaker 01 Got it.
13:44 Guy Raz? So obviously, you want to expand that out. So tell me about some potential communities that this could appeal to.
13:51 Speaker 02 So a huge one that's not tied to a specific group is just working women in general. A lot of women who don't dress this way all the time have to do so for work. So that's a huge opportunity and probably the biggest market. In terms of other groups, you have the Mormon community, you have lots of different Christian communities, and then there's also the Muslim community as well. And each of those are small but important and very different. And I'm not even sure how to go about starting to talk to them.
14:18 Guy Raz? That's an amazing idea. Randy, what do you think? How do you market this to them?
14:24 Speaker 01 So today's world, I think we are heading to a place where you want to be borrowing community versus buying it. And the concept there, when I say that, is you want to be finding people that really resonate with a specific community that you're trying to find your way into, people that already have a head start there, influencers and creators.
14:52 Speaker 01 Are establishing themselves and micro communities are popping up everywhere. And the work of getting into those communities cannot come from a place of I'm a brand. I have dollars. I'm putting money to get in front of you. That's just doesn't read as authentic in today's world. So finding the people who you think best represent that community and have built a following, speaking authentically to them, and then figuring out the connective tissue between you and that person is the work of sort of hand to hand combat marketing in today's world. And I think, starting from that place, you mentioned working women, you mentioned Christian communities, you mentioned Muslim communities.
15:36 Speaker 01 Start by trying to find a list of the people who are having the biggest impact in those places. And then look at the people that those people are following and look at who's following them. And maybe you start to build out an idea of the type of person you can partner with.
15:51 Speaker 02 I've run up against that, actually. So I actually, I host a podcast called Be Impactful. It's tied in with this whole idea of women's empowerment and impact fashion, and it's about the women making a difference in their own corners of the world. And the reason why I started that podcast was so that I could talk to women in other communities. The problem that I ran into is that the people who were willing to talk to me, or the people who I could find at first, let me put it that way, turned out to not have been very accepted by their communities. Like, I am not a good judge of who is a good ambassador in an insular religious community, because someone who seems perfectly lovely to me, you know, someone who seems, and who I can have a great conversation with, and who I did have great conversations with, this has happened on a few different occasions.
16:33 Guy Raz? Might be an outcast.
16:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, so I seem to be attracting the outcasts.
16:37 Speaker 01 Right, I think we all are.
16:39 Speaker 02 Right, exactly. We love the underdogs.
16:42 Guy Raz? Nothing wrong with the outcasts, but they may not be the best influencers.
16:46 Speaker 02 Right, so like, I know in my community, there are certain influencers that are kind of like the outcast. And once a company works with that person, even if they go and they try to work with somebody else, they're already kind of tainted. So I've been kind of nervous to tie it to a specific person, because I don't really know if the person that I'm working with is the right kind of person.
17:09 Guy Raz? I think that there are two things going on here, right, Randy? One is, it's a brand about modesty, which could potentially have a wide appeal. And then size inclusive, which is also, and I wonder whether those are two separate categories, right? Like, can you, first of all, Randy, do you think you would market to each of those categories separately, or do you think it's better to focus on one of those two things?
17:31 Speaker 01 I think the magic is in the center part of that Venn diagram and starting smaller. But just because it seems smaller doesn't mean there aren't thousands of people who could be interesting ambassadors for you. And the idea that someone might be a great guest for your podcast, but a bad influencer or ambassador for your brand is okay, right? So I think your approach to who you want to talk to and who you want to help carve a way in are two different things. I do think there's an uphill challenge in that communities that tend to be insular, this might not be the easiest nut to crack, right? But this feels like the kind of thing where when it works, it's going to really work.
18:16 Speaker 01 So having kind of a test and learn attitude and be willing to try a lot of things and fail in small ways, nothing that's going to sink you, but taking a lot of shots with a strategy is going to be the way forward here.
18:30 Guy Raz? Rupki, here's what I want to see on your site. I want to see different kinds of models on the site, right? Like, I'm assuming a lot of the people on the site are people you know, but I mean, there's a world where you work with, you know, you find an inexpensive agency and you work with different models who look differently, you know, starting with people who might be looking at plus-size dresses and then people who are just looking at long summer dresses. Because like, for example, this ribbed maxi drawstring dress looks like a Coachella dress. Like, you could imagine somebody going to Coachella in that dress, right? And not even caring or knowing that it was designed for an Orthodox Jewish
19:13 Guy Raz? woman who wanted to dress modestly. Like, it's a, there's a lot of potential here to kind of reach different types of consumers.
19:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, I hear that. In the past, when I've done kind of like played around with paid digital ads and stuff like that on Google, what I generally found was that the, if I started from the modesty place, it worked better than starting from the plus size place. Because there are a lot of plus size options, if like modesty is not your, your top concern, but there aren't as many mainstream modest options. And yeah, it's, it's an interesting idea to think of them. I've only ever thought about these pieces in a religious context, because the communities that I always envisioned kind of going to next were also religious communities, just because I, I'm from a religious community.
19:57 Speaker 01 I think there's an opportunity to put some of these ideas together. Guy was talking about having different looking people showing up on your site, right? Different skin tones, different versions of what plus looks like. I mean, seventy plus percent of American women are over a size fourteen, something in that range is the statistic. So there are a lot of businesses catering there. Your uniqueness is the modesty plus the plus size and you're looking to speak to other communities. So if you want to show up in these other communities and they come to your site, it has to feel like a welcoming place. So I think your story probably needs to be a little bit clearer on your site. And then some of the people who are on there need to start to look a little differently.
20:40 Speaker 01 Maybe some of the people who've been guests on your podcast, or you're going out and finding somebody who's interesting and you say to them, listen, I'm going to send you a dress. Will you shoot this? Maybe they keep the dress and you're making two of them, you know? This isn't going to be completely free, but there could be some interesting ways to start to get some new photography in, show a little bit more diversity, tell your story in a different way, and start to solve some of your marketing problems as well. Even if you have a successful campaign and you're starting to reach a different community, if they show up on your site and all they see are someone from somebody else's community, it's not necessarily going to feel like it's for them.
21:18 Speaker 02 That makes a lot of sense.
21:19 Speaker 01 You're having success making your community feel seen in your clothing. Would you say that's a
21:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's right on the head. Sure.
21:26 Speaker 01 That's the heart of it, right? And you want to expand into other communities. You cannot do that without that same intention of making those people feel seen. And that's going to take a little bit of work and it's going to take you maybe stepping a little outside of your comfort zone and meeting people where they are. But that's what great brands do in today's world. You don't wait for people to come into your world and ask them to change their ways for you. You go figure out ways that your brand attaches into their life and fits in seamlessly for them. And people will really appreciate it.
21:56 Speaker 02 So it's how can I be helpful to you in whatever way you would be using these clothes?
22:03 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Right?
22:04 Guy Raz? Yes.
22:05 Speaker 02 That makes a lot of sense.
22:06 Speaker 01 But the heart of what you do won't change. That's the thing. You don't have to change who you were. You don't have to give up who you are or what you believe in. You just have to show people that how it applies to their life rather than expect them to do that work and come to you.
22:20 Guy Raz? I love this. Rivkietskowitz, the brand is called Impact Fashion. So cool. It's so cool to see. Thank you so much for calling in. Thank you for bringing your question to us. We're going to be, we'll be following you.
22:29 Speaker 02 Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to implementing all of this.
22:33 Guy Raz? All right. Thanks. Randy, I love that.
22:36 Speaker 01 That was great.
22:37 Guy Raz? Agreed. I'm going to be, I'm going to follow this. This is a cool story. I mean, you know,
22:41 Speaker 01 I love it.
22:42 Guy Raz? To come out of any community, any sort of more insular, tightly knit community and to try and bring something to the world is, it's hard. It's really hard to do. It's cool.
22:51 Speaker 01 Wouldn't it be great if some of these dividing lines that seem really intense could be cracked
22:57 Guy Raz? Yeah.
22:58 Speaker 01 through in something like this where, and this is where clothes start to matter in a way that maybe you would never think about, you know, like can people share something through clothing that they might not share in any other way? Could that create an opportunity for more than one person to connect with someone who they never would connect with without abandoning who they were are or giving up on it, you know, finding that connective tissue? So interesting.
23:24 Guy Raz? Yeah, totally. Okay, Randy, we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, an entrepreneur who's asking, how do you get people excited about a game that they've never heard of? More on that in a moment. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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26:29 Guy Raz? Hey, welcome back to the Device Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and I'm here with Randy Goldberg, co-founder of Bombas, and we're taking your calls. Randy, let's bring in another caller. Yeah. All right. Hello, caller.
26:40 Speaker 03 Hello.
26:41 Guy Raz? Hello. Tell us your name. Tell us where you're calling from and just very briefly about your business.
26:46 Speaker 03 Hey, Guy. Hey, Randy. I'm Shyam. I'm calling in from Seattle, Washington, and I'm one of the co-founders of PlayKaram, a company dedicated to popularizing and selling the very popular South Asian tabletop game, Karam.
27:01 Guy Raz? Karam? Yeah. And what's your question?
27:04 Speaker 03 So, we feel like our product can be enjoyed by almost anybody, from young kids, older adults, anybody in between. And we're really trying to target, with the recent success of outdoor games like Spikeball and Pickleball, we see Karam as uniquely satisfying a similar demand, but for indoor play. So, our question is, how do we hone in our marketing strategy and our brand identity when our potential user base is so diverse and so big? Do we start with targeting specific demographics, or is there a way to broaden our scope to build our brand to scale more broadly?
27:41 Guy Raz? All right. Tell us about Karam first. I've seen Karam boards. I was a foreign correspondent. I went around the world. And it's basically a wooden, generally a wooden board, like square tabletop board with checkers pieces, type pieces on the board, right?
27:56 Speaker 03 Exactly. Yeah. It comes in a lot of different sizes, for sure.
27:59 Guy Raz? And tell me the basic rules of the game.
28:01 Speaker 03 Yeah. So, it's really similar to pool. If you've never played Karam, I like to say it's a combination of pool and shuffleboard, but for... Tabletop, you play with your fingers and it's similar to pool where your goal is to really just pocket all of your pieces into the corners.
28:17 Guy Raz? And do you flick it? Do you flick the caroms?
28:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah, you just flick it with your hands. There's a bunch of different versions, but the popular one is you just use your hands and you just flick, kinda like a striker, kinda like a cue, a pool cue, but it's called a striker.
28:29 Guy Raz? Yeah. What are the little round things called? The checkerboard pieces, what are they called?
28:34 Speaker 03 Those are called coins, yeah.
28:35 Guy Raz? Coins, okay. And are they made out of wood?
28:37 Speaker 03 Yeah, they can be made out of wood, they can be made out of acrylic, there's a bunch of different materials that can be made out of. So one of the things that we're focusing on as a brand and company is really making a product that's a little bit unique. I'm an engineer and I mean, we play the game almost every day, so there were a lot of things that us, as people who play it, wanted to see in a product for a wider audience.
29:01 Guy Raz? Tom, where are you an engineer, by the way?
29:03 Speaker 03 I'm an engineer at SpaceX.
29:05 Guy Raz? What?
29:06 Speaker 03 Heard of it.
29:07 Guy Raz? Nice. Wow. Oh my god, so what do you do there?
29:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, I work on the satellite factory, so I'm on the team that automates the production of all of our Starlink satellites.
29:17 Guy Raz? Wow. I have Starlink. You are literally a rocket engineer. You're a rocket engineer. We're talking about a wooden board game, amazing. So this is like your side hustle?
29:27 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things, like, people, everybody is on their screen all day, and when you work long hours and, you know, you're staring at a laptop all day, you don't want to get home and just watch TV with your partner or your family or friends. So I rediscovered the game recently, actually, when my partner got it for me for Christmas, and that was where, you know, the inspiration really came. Like, wow, this is like a great way to connect with family and friends offline, because it's not like chess or any like card games where you really have to like think and try to do stuff. It really is a really social game.
30:01 Guy Raz? And so, you haven't launched your company yet, right? This is just, you want to figure out how to do it?
30:06 Speaker 03 So, we're in our late stages of our manufacturing, running through our samples. I designed the board and the tooling and everything myself.
30:15 Guy Raz? Wow.
30:15 Speaker 03 But while we're feeling more confident about that side of the business, we're really trying to figure out how we can, you know, lock down the other side of it, which is how do we actually sell the thing?
30:24 Speaker 01 This is so interesting. So is this typically a family game?
30:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, typically, I would say a lot of South Asian families have a carrom board at home. It's a very popular family oriented game. I played it growing up with my family, actually, but you know, it gets pretty heated at home. So it's definitely one of those games. You got to play with the right, right people.
30:46 Speaker 01 Well, I guess that goes for any game, right? Is this a game where people bet on when they're playing?
30:53 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, that's a good point. We have a couple of ideas in terms of like how we would want to spin it like into a different audience. Like one of them is a drinking game and one of them is, is yeah, you don't typically bet on the game itself.
31:06 Speaker 01 Okay.
31:07 Speaker 03 I think carrom is a little bit faster, a little bit more family oriented, a little more wholesome, I think.
31:12 Speaker 01 Okay.
31:12 Speaker 03 In that kind of sense of the, the term.
31:15 Guy Raz? How much are you, are you going to sell each of these boards for?
31:18 Speaker 03 Yeah. So the boards are going to range from 99 to 120 for the size that it is, which is two feet by two feet.
31:25 Guy Raz? Yeah. So you have, you have an interesting task ahead of you and reminds me a little bit of, of this episode we did on Goyaki Yerba Mate, which is now a huge brand, right? They're all over the United States, but for like 15 years, these guys, this group of guys had to explain to American audiences what Yerba Mate was because people would try it. And it was this bitter tea that, you know, is consumed mainly in Argentina and Uruguay. But they had to explain to people the health benefits of it and like it's, it's, you know, it's medicinal properties and how it's like, it's a stimulant, but in a, in a safe and healthy way. And eventually they succeeded, you know, and they built a, a really great brand out of it, but it took a long time. Similarly, you've got to show people how, how this is played and how it's fun.
32:10 Guy Raz? And so to me, it seems like one of your approaches really has to be video. It has to be people playing this game and ways that people are interacting and connecting.
32:22 Speaker 03 Totally. Yeah. One of the things that we really have going for us is on TikTok and Instagram. And I think even the ESPN TikTok, they post videos sometimes of like people playing the game, like in the traditional format. So it's really popular online and in social media, but there's not really. A product like ours on the market anywhere and definitely not in the United States.
32:43 Guy Raz? Yeah, what makes yours different because I'm looking at Amazon, you can buy a carom board on Amazon. But how is yours going to be different?
32:50 Speaker 03 Ours is a little bit more simple in terms of the design aesthetic. Like it's a it's a balance between keeping the roots of the game and and the cultural significance of the game itself and trying to design it in a way that feels more appealing, like something you can leave out on a coffee table and not feel like you need to put it away. The really nice boards are like that, but again, they cost so much money. So we're really trying to to bring that barrier of entry down.
33:18 Speaker 01 You know, you mentioned this was a family game traditionally, but do you feel like this is a game that people will play mostly in their homes or also out at bars or with groups of friends in different settings? I'm curious where you want to start because I think that'll help hone in on the strategy of how you might market it because you have a lot of opportunity.
33:37 Speaker 03 Definitely. I think because the game is so visually impactful, like you see the game, you see people playing it. And I think because the rules are so similar to like pool, you kind of understand it when you watch it. So for us, we're thinking more along the lines of like a coffee shop, a cafe, somewhere where you can really see other people playing it or even at a park. I could see this in like New York at, you know, people like playing chess outside, people may be playing carom outside. So it's definitely a game that in my mind I envision being more portable and on the go. But living here in the Pacific Northwest, one of the best parts about the game is you can play it indoors.
34:16 Guy Raz? You know, it seems like a natural like first entry point, right? Would be with like second, third generation South Asian communities in the United States, right? That would be an obvious play because those kids or the grandkids of immigrants would have might have been exposed to the game. But the other thing you mentioned, the drinking game aspect of it seems to me like there's there is a lot, there's some potential there, like you could imagine like. A bar, right? A bar that has games or tabletops where there's some kind of integrated thing that you do.
34:49 Speaker 03 Right, right. I think one of the things that we're also thinking about, and we love the idea of, you know, drinking it ourselves, but I think in terms of our brand, like, how do we, I don't want to become like a trend. I see so many of these games that come and trend and go and trend and go. And it's so hard, I think, to navigate when you're trying to sell a product that's more of an experience that can last a long time. But I don't want to turn it into like a commodity that only happens in certain events. It's hard to find a balance. And that's really what I've been struggling with mentally.
35:21 Speaker 01 It seems like if you got to the point where this was well-known enough to be a commodity, that would be a great problem to address then. You know, for now, you have both the challenge of something that's relatively unknown, you know, and the opportunity that it's relatively unknown and you can be the one to make it known, right? And again, I think it's, you're gonna have to focus in a few different places and see what sticks and see who's posting about it, right? If you can get people posting videos of themselves playing this and people are like, what is this game? How do I get it? And you're the first resource when they go to look it up, that's where I think you start to get traction. And worrying about becoming a fad, I think there would be something great about getting
36:05 Speaker 01 that type of exposure if you're smart about how to capitalize on it. And if you have, if your intentions are right, once you get to that point.
36:12 Guy Raz? I would also suggest you listen to our episode about Spikeball, if you haven't heard it, that we did on the show a couple, a couple of months ago, or maybe a year ago. Because it took them a while, but then it took off. And it started with smaller groups of people that they didn't anticipate. They thought it was like a beach volleyball kind of crowd that would go for it. And they were going to beach volleyball tournaments and they were trying to really penetrate those communities. They ended up having a lot of success initially with church youth groups. Just they had no idea. Like church youth groups started to buy, and Amish communities randomly were just buying Spikeball because it turns out that it's a game that was safe to be played, it was like a safe coed game. And it turns out they really built the brand, you know, on these communities, these sort
36:57 Guy Raz? of niche communities, and then eventually it became a mass marketed product. And that's the thing to me, like, seems like there's an opportunity to find a group. And it may be that you would start with, with, you know, second, third generation South Asian kids or young people. But, but you might also find that it could be like church youth groups. Like there are organized church youth groups in the United States, you know? And, and really, it seems like this is the kind of product that you've got to go to a trade show. You got to go to trade shows and, you know, talk about what you're doing. But you could also think about non-traditional trade shows, like that may not be about games at all, but that might be about, you know, travel and leisure or something totally unrelated,
37:39 Guy Raz? but where you can start to think about ways and places where you could, you could put these boards. You also want to think about places where you can just give them away for free.
37:48 Speaker 01 Definitely.
37:49 Guy Raz? Right? Where you can have them in a hotel lobby, for example, like a cool hotel lobby. Like, I think about like, something like that.
37:56 Speaker 03 Absolutely. Yeah, I'm just so excited to share the game. It's, it's such a big part of our lives and, well, you guys will be the first, first two to get the final product.
38:05 Guy Raz? Oh, yeah.
38:05 Speaker 03 We'll love to see the videos.
38:07 Guy Raz? I'd love it. Randy, I'm gonna, we're gonna, I'm gonna drink you under the carom table.
38:11 Speaker 01 Bring it, guy. I'm ready.
38:12 Guy Raz? All right, all right. Shahn Patel, the company's called Play Carom. Thank you so much.
38:17 Speaker 03 Yeah, thank you so much.
38:19 Guy Raz? Yeah. Keep us posted.
38:20 Speaker 03 Will do.
38:21 Guy Raz? Yeah.
38:22 Speaker 01 Interesting.
38:22 Guy Raz? I'm trying to figure out, you could, you like, every time you flick one in, like, the other guy's got to take a shot or something. I don't, I don't want to, you know, encourage like binge drinking, but you can imagine.
38:31 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
38:32 Guy Raz? There is a considerable contingent of humans who would be like, yeah, all right, let's do it.
38:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:38 Guy Raz? You're on.
38:38 Speaker 01 I think you're right. Their, their initial marketing investment's going to have to be giving away products in the right places. And some of them won't be right, but getting boards in places where people will play it and having somebody who's excited about it, posting about it. Eventually, the word gets out if something is great and it'll find the audience. But, you know, I like the idea. You know, you mentioned Amish groups and Spikeball. That's so interesting. You have to be willing to be surprised and you have to be willing to test and learn.
39:08 Guy Raz? Yeah, for sure. All right, Randy, we're gonna take another quick break, but when we come back, a hip boutique that is trying to figure out how to translate its brick and mortar vibes into digital sales. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
39:38 Guy Raz? Hello and welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. I'm with Randy Goldberg, co-founder of Bombas, and we're answering your business questions. Randy, I believe we have our next caller on the line. Hello, caller.
39:51 Speaker 04 Hi.
39:52 Guy Raz? Hello, welcome. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
39:57 Speaker 04 Right, so my name's Anna Benchavanga. I own Urbana Boutique in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and the main mission of my business is helping people feel their best in the current iteration of their body. And I provide this through the conduit of affordable quality apparel, jewelry, and little tchotchkes.
40:14 Guy Raz? Cool. All right. Urbana Boutique is the name of it, right?
40:17 Speaker 04 Yes.
40:18 Guy Raz? And what question have you brought for us?
40:20 Speaker 04 So I come from the space of brick and mortar. And so my big thing is, I'm trying to figure out, I've built up such a beautiful community and rapport with the women that I directly serve, but how do I then build that same community rapport and appreciation in the digital space? Because the internet's so vast, and I'm trying to find my specific people in the vastness of the internet and really serve and help them.
40:47 Guy Raz? So tell me a little bit about the boutique. You have a store?
40:50 Speaker 04 Yes.
40:51 Guy Raz? And you're trying to sell more direct-to-consumer through the internet, is that right?
40:54 Speaker 04 Correct.
40:55 Guy Raz? Okay, and your boutique is in Pittsburgh, not in Pittsburgh, it's in Oakmont, near Pittsburgh?
41:00 Speaker 04 Yes, yeah, it's a suburb of Pittsburgh.
41:02 Guy Raz? And tell me who your clients are. I'm looking at your website now. Who are your customers?
41:06 Speaker 04 So my client, I would say, is 35 to 65-year-old women in creative fields, women who often put themselves last, a lot of stay-at-home moms, a lot of postpartum women, a lot of women in the workforce. And I don't know about you, but my mother couldn't spend $5 on herself without feeling guilty. And so I want to be able to provide the service of cool, quality pieces, but at a really affordable price point that women don't feel guilty and don't attach that guilt, and are able to treat themselves well so that they can then move through the world with that same kindness.
41:39 Guy Raz? I'm looking at, through your website, and a lot of different things.
41:42 Speaker 04 Yes.
41:43 Guy Raz? Definitely things that are different from Rivki's Impact Fashion.
41:46 Speaker 04 Yes.
41:47 Guy Raz? Some immodest clothing, but...
41:50 Guy Raz? Tell me about where you source your, like, how do you pick what you sell?
41:54 Speaker 04 Right. So I worked at a European boutique for a decade. I was a buyer and a salesperson. And so I try to bring that same aesthetic, but at a super affordable price point. So I do source from the different trade shows in the area as well as different marketplace platforms online.
42:11 Guy Raz? And the key is, I mean, you're obviously sourcing, you know, cool looking things.
42:15 Speaker 04 Yes.
42:15 Guy Raz? Can I say fashion forward or is that like a tired?
42:18 Speaker 04 No, you can say that.
42:20 Guy Raz? But at an affordable price, like really affordable, like a sweater is 40 bucks or a basic long sleeve is 30 bucks, satin kimono is $69. I mean, so you're basically going for affordability too.
42:34 Speaker 04 Correct.
42:34 Guy Raz? Cool. And when did you start this business?
42:37 Speaker 04 So I started the business in August of 2019. I was splitting a space with a coffee shop. I started in 400 square feet with three clothing racks and literally a room divider screen for people to try pieces on at the store. And then after the first holiday, I was like, this is working. I gotta go because a storefront had opened two doors down and the storefront opened and I signed the lease March 1st, 2020.
43:05 Guy Raz? Wow.
43:06 Speaker 04 It was really fun.
43:09 Guy Raz? How did you, how did you get through that?
43:10 Speaker 04 So, you know, COVID was horrible, but I firmly believe in finding the silver linings in things. And one of those silver linings was starting to delve into the digital space, which I had avoided for years and years and years because it's such a huge undertaking. And it's something that I just wasn't versed in. So it really forced me to kind of start working on that. So I was just grinding. I would be at the store. I would take deliveries to people's houses. Fortunately, the community, even though they weren't going anywhere, were still buying pieces on the, on the site. So I just really hustled and grinded till the cows came home.
43:51 Guy Raz? And so what 90, 95% of your sales are coming from in-store purchases right now?
43:56 Speaker 04 Yes.
43:56 Guy Raz? But you've got a website up that you
43:58 Speaker 04 Right.
43:58 Guy Raz? You want this out in the world, right? And so you wanna, you're trying to figure out how to bring more traffic and more revenue through the website.
44:05 Speaker 04 Right, because in, you know, on a beautiful day, like people come walking in, people are walking around, I'm able to make sales, but I want the consistency that comes with the e-commerce space and the consistency of having that steady flow of income when it's raining and three degrees and gray in Pittsburgh.
44:23 Guy Raz? Randy, what do you make of this? I mean, here you are, you've got this brick and mortar store, clearly a cool boutique, and you're now, she's now trying to get this out into the world. But of course, there's a lot of noise out there.
44:37 Speaker 01 A lot.
44:37 Guy Raz? You know, it's not the same when you guys launched Bombas in 2013. You know, you could get some influencers and you could really grind into Instagram and Instagram was new. So where do you start?
44:49 Speaker 01 So much noise, so hard to break in, in the way that a lot of businesses did 10 years ago. And a lot of confusion even amongst big brands on where to go in terms of marketing. But I guess I would back up and ask a couple of questions if that's all right, Anna.
45:04 Speaker 04 Sure.
45:04 Speaker 01 In terms of the clothes, are you making the clothes yourself? Are you buying from other brands? Are you?
45:09 Speaker 04 No, it's, it's all different brands that I buy from.
45:12 Speaker 01 And is it clear what, what those brands are on your website?
45:14 Speaker 04 See, that's the other problem is that because there are so many boutiques opening in both physical brick and mortar and in the digital space. And I think the big differential factor is the fact that I actually go to the trade show. I feel everything. It is quality, even though it is really reasonably priced. And so online, it's difficult to, to really provide that kind of statement and to help that people understand, hey, this is not just. A $30 sweater you can get on Amazon. This is actual quality at $30.
45:47 Speaker 01 And is that $30 sweater, does it have a brand name in it when you get it?
45:52 Speaker 04 Yes.
45:52 Speaker 01 But that's not clear on your site what that brand is.
45:55 Speaker 04 No, I try to keep it that way just because people can source things. Other people are able to source things from the same places.
46:03 Guy Raz? Yeah, the, it seems like the advantage here, Randy, I think, is, is Anna's curation. And so I feel like you need to be more front and center. Like, we need to know that that's happening and we need to see you. I know you're on the website, but you gotta go to the about page. But I kinda wanna see you somehow, either you or your message upfront at the beginning, right? That I kinda feel like if you're out there, I'm looking at you and I'm thinking, well, she's, you know, got a great outfit on. She knows what she's talking about. I'm gonna trust her.
46:34 Speaker 04 Right.
46:34 Speaker 01 It seems like you've also built some community in Oakmont. Was that fair to say?
46:40 Speaker 04 Yes.
46:41 Speaker 01 You have customers that come in regularly and they come in to say hi and see what's in the store. And they're kind of, they don't know if something new is in, but they just stop in. They're just shopping. Is that right?
46:50 Speaker 04 Right.
46:51 Speaker 01 And a lot of it is very personal. You're at the store, I'm guessing?
46:53 Speaker 04 Every day of my life.
46:55 Speaker 01 Every day of your life.
46:56 Speaker 04 Except today's my mother's there for the couple hours. Yeah.
46:59 Speaker 01 Okay, that's great. So you're winning, like Guy said, and I think this is very astute, on fiscal curation in a world that doesn't have much of that anymore. Right? You're going to trade shows, you're touching and feeling things, you're making choices and you have a point of view. And that's super valuable in today's world. People want things that cut through, right? They want a point of view. But I feel like your website is not 100% a reflection of that. Like Guy said, I wanna know that perspective, that personality, that point of view in every page of your site. I want that to be so clear on the homepage. I wanna see the story on the about us. I wanna you to talk about how you're finding things.
47:44 Speaker 01 On the product detail pages, I wanna know not just this is a chic top. I wanna know why you picked it, what it feels like. And what it's going to be like for me.
47:53 Guy Raz? Oh, it's a great idea. I think about like the Jay Peterman catalog a little bit. Remember that?
47:58 Speaker 01 Totally. People think that's from Seinfeld, but that was a real.
48:00 Guy Raz? It's a real thing. It's a real thing. And it's a real thing. Actually, it's a long story. But anyway, I'm look, I just picked one thing randomly, the gold sparkle romper. How cool would it be if you could say, you know, there could be a funny little story about maybe how you saw this or how you found it, or I discovered this, this piece, and I feel like there is an opportunity to tell a story about every single item that you sell. It's not easy to do, but you can do it. And it's something you can actually control.
48:29 Speaker 04 Right. Yeah. I mean, the whole, I would say the bigger part of the mission is the people in the clothing. So I, I feel like that would be a good starting point to just have stories of women that have bought it, or the woman that I saw wearing it. Because ultimately, I believe if you put people first in whatever you're doing, you're going to be more successful. Understanding not just the clothing, but the people behind the clothing, I think is the bigger thing for me.
48:58 Speaker 01 I also think that the reason that your shop exists and the reason that you're doing this, you have a lot of passion behind this, and it's super clear, talking to us. It's not super clear on your site, and
49:08 Speaker 04 I know.
49:09 Speaker 01 That has got to be job one. It's, that is an easy thing to control, right? You don't have to pay a marketing agency to get in there and fix your site. There's some tactical things. You know, there's an ingredients section on the, on your product detail page. I feel like it was a template that just isn't filled in, and there's lots of dropdowns that don't have answers. I'm missing the reason that you exist as a brand and as a shop. And I want to see the, the great vibes that I'm sure at your shop come to life on the website. And if you can translate that story and not just tell people what it is, but show them what it is, that's where you need to start before you spend a dollar on digital marketing.
49:53 Speaker 04 Right. Cause it's so expensive and you can just. Lose so much money so incredibly quickly. That's why I haven't even thought about doing anything like that because I know my website needs some love, needs some work.
50:05 Speaker 01 Your website, it's a reflection of who you are as a brand and as a store.
50:09 Speaker 04 Yeah.
50:09 Speaker 01 So until you feel like you can write those things down and get into the mode where you can communicate all the wonderful things that you're saying through that tool, through that place, then you can't really go anywhere else. Start with one thing like that, then move on to your organic social channels and the stories that guys talking about, about your customers, about people who come into the shop, about you. Start talking to people. Think of it as your personal blog. Put yourself out there and start explaining why this is great. And I think you'll soon soon come to realize that instead of on your site saying affordable, unique chic, that sounds like marketing that sounds like anywhere.
50:49 Speaker 04 Right.
50:50 Speaker 01 Right? That could be Zara or Shein and that's certainly not what you're trying to do. Right?
50:54 Speaker 04 Right.
50:55 Speaker 01 Find the version of what makes you unique, the why of your business, the heart of who you are, and start to just put that out there. That's where you have to start.
51:06 Speaker 04 Yeah. Do you still believe in email marketing, Randy? Is that still the number one? Cause I mean, social media is kind of where I thrive. I really enjoy that part of it and I really enjoy giving like the behind the scenes, but everyone I've spoken with in the industry that I look up to has said that email marketing is still number one.
51:25 Speaker 01 Email marketing is a huge part of our business to this day. I mean, people still check emails. People have been talking about email dying for 15 years and it's still a hugely valuable channel. And I think it's got to be part of the mix. It's not the only thing, but it's a big part of what you can do, especially in retention marketing, you know, when you're trying to talk to your customers and your file and keep them updated. All of this comes back to the idea that you have a unique point of view. People want to see what that is. Why is it different than other things? Who are you talking to? How are you finding them? These are all just tools, but getting that story down? That's the first step.
52:01 Guy Raz? Agreed. Especially when it's, it's something that is value add for somebody. Right? Like they're learning something when they open that, that email. And that's the key, I think.
52:10 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think that's the biggest problem for me as like a moral issue. I think that I don't want to feel icky about doing the online sales portion of it. I still want it to very much be about the mission of helping women feel good in their body. But how do I accomplish both at the same time without? You know, I'm not trying to be too altruistic. I do have to make money. It is a business, but like, how do I, how do I add both? By adding a story to an email as opposed to just?
52:39 Speaker 01 You want to not feel icky about the online marketing? Get your story right. You feel good about your story. All marketing is trying to connect your story to potential customers. And grinding it out person by person every day, connecting those dots, having people understand what you're doing. That's marketing. It's, it's not trickery. It's getting people to pay attention to what you're doing. So start there. You're doing great.
53:04 Guy Raz? Yep.
53:04 Speaker 04 Great.
53:05 Guy Raz? Anna Benjavanga Urbana Boutique in Oakmont, Pennsylvania. Thank you so much for calling in.
53:11 Speaker 04 Thank you so much for the opportunity.
53:13 Guy Raz? Great having you on. All right. I'm working through this, Randy. I'm working through my prudishness on the show. Like this is, this is a critique that I get sometimes where people are like, you're too prude because I don't, you know, I normally don't say bad words and like, but I'm getting there and I'm looking and, and I'm looking at this stuff. I'm like, some of it, I, you know, to look what she is putting, not, and most of her, the things she's selling are skirts and dresses and sort of tunics and things like that. Satin kimonos.
53:44 Guy Raz? But she does have some things that, you know, are, I guess, you wouldn't really want to scroll at work, maybe, for some of those things.
53:50 Speaker 01 Maybe.
53:51 Guy Raz? But that's an opportunity. I mean, she's got an opportunity to tell funny stories about, about some of these things, which could be really cool.
53:58 Speaker 01 Absolutely. She has a mission and a point of view, and the fact that that's not clear in her digital world is the first opportunity. And then she can start to think about the others. People get distracted by everything everyone tells them. This type of marketing and that type of marketing and influencers and it's as expensive. Get your story straight, you know? What are you about? She has it down in the store. She has a community she's built. Translating that, that's where she's got to go first.
54:25 Guy Raz? Do you, uh, do you get like, are you getting like either nostalgia or PTSD, listening to all these early-stage founders? Like, does it take you back to your anxieties in 2013?
54:35 Speaker 01 Are those different things, nostalgia and PTSD? I, I've, I'm hearing, I feel some of the similarities and I, I also think these people are super smart. They have interesting ideas. There's a few things that connect the dots. And, you know, when we were just starting, we had people who gave us advice and were really helpful along the way. And those advisors and, you know, having access to someone like you, Guy, or a founder who had been there, even if it was a different category, invaluable as you're building a business because you're so close to it. And you just sometimes need someone to be like, eh, you know, actually, that.
55:12 Guy Raz? Randy Goldberg, co-founder of Bombas, and my friend, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Thank you so much for coming on the Advice Line.
55:18 Speaker 01 Thank you so much, Guy. I loved it.
55:19 Guy Raz? And by the way, if you guys have not heard Randy Goldberg's episode, the episode, The Story of Bombas, with his co-founder David Heath, please check it out. It's such a cool story. We will put a link to it in the show notes. And also, thank you for listening to the show this week. If you are working on a business, you've got a problem, an idea, you need some help, you need some psychotherapy, whatever it is, send us a one-minute message. Tell us about your business. Tell us about the issues or the questions that you'd like help with. And please make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] , or you can call and leave a message at 1-800-
56:00 Guy Raz? 433-1298. And don't forget to sign up for my newsletter at guyraz.com. It's free and full of great insights from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. And we'll put all of that in the show notes as well. This episode was produced by Alex Cheng with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Carla Estevez, Chris Messina, Casey Herman, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
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