Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Advice Line with Jeffrey Hollender of Seventh Generation About this episode Today’s callers: Kristina in Ohio looks for avenues beyond organic social media to market her furniture designed for toddlers and parents alike. Then Phil in Michigan considers the best messaging to brew interest in his farm-made cherry vinegar. And Caroline in California scouts new ways to cultivate curiosity around her plant-based dog food.
Plus, Jeffrey discusses the quiet momentum of social businesses as they navigate ‘greenhushing’ and a polarized political climate.
Thank you to the founders of Twenty Five and Pine, Red Truck Orchards, and Petaluma for being a part of our show.
If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.
And be sure to listen to Seventh Generation’s founding story https://wondery.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episode/10386-seventh-generation-alan-newman-and-jeffrey-hollender/ as told by Jeffrey and his co-founder Alan in 2021.
This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley.
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4:23 Speaker 00 Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on this show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Seventh Generation co-founder Jeffrey Hollander. Jeffrey, it's so great to have you back on the show. Welcome back.
5:00 Speaker 01 I'm happy to be here. Great to see you again.
5:02 Speaker 00 You were first on How I Built This in 2021. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. And in that episode, we had you on with your co-founder, Alan Newman, that you hadn't spoken to in decades. And in 1992, as we talked about in the story, the board of directors pushed Alan out. You stayed on as CEO until 2010. And by 2016, Seventh Generation was acquired by Unilever for about $600 to $700 million. It's an amazing story because it really uncovered the delicate relationship between two partners. And you just have recently put a book out about your story called Built for a Better World: How Seventh Generation Pioneered a Movement That Changed the Purpose of Business.
5:47 Speaker 00 So congrats on that, Jeffrey.
5:49 Speaker 01 Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited about it.
5:51 Speaker 00 Before I ask you about the book, I know that when you came on, it was a big deal because the two of you, it was the first time you had spoken in years. And there was a lot of sensitive things that we talked about. How did you feel about that? I mean, of course, the time on show was hard, but on reflection, how did you feel about it?
6:10 Speaker 01 I felt great about it. In some ways, it helped reconcile some unresolved issues.
6:17 Speaker 01 And I think we both approached it with an openness to reevaluate what we thought we did right and wrong. And so it was sort of a growing experience in a way, a bit of a healing experience. So I'm thrilled that you gave us the opportunity to do that.
6:36 Speaker 00 I mean, it was clear that there was, there was a lot of mutual respect. And it was, you know, it was hard because when partners fall out, it's hard. But the two of you came and really talked about, about that story, I thought, in a really candid way. You know, I'm curious about the book writing process. What, what did you want to do in the book? What was your, what was your aim?
6:59 Speaker 01 I wanted to try to gather together all the lessons that we learned running Seventh Generation as a business that put its purpose ahead of profit. And I wanted other businesses who wanted to follow in our footsteps to learn from what we had learned and what I thought business needs to do in the future. Responsible business has not fixed all the problems we're facing in the world, and we need to make some dramatic changes if that is going to happen.
7:31 Speaker 00 Yeah. When you, when you work with founders who have a social mission, right? Who, you know, who want to, and again, that is, there's been a bit of a shift, right? There was, it was a lot of that kind of startup energy happening, you know, it sort of between 2010, 2020. I think some of it's faded a little bit, but there was a sort of the one to one, you know, buy one, we'll give one away kind of thing. And a lot of socially focused businesses. It seems like that has faded a little bit. First of all, do you agree with that?
8:05 Speaker 01 I can't understand why it looks like that, given what you read in the newspaper. But When I look at who's signing up for my class and when I talk to people, the enthusiasm they have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems in some regards is growing, but it's not being talked about as much as it was before because people are scared, sort of stick their head up and say, hey, I'm doing this great stuff. There is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things and they don't talk about them. And part of it is the sort of political environment we live in.
8:48 Speaker 01 And we have many aspects of responsible business like diversity and inclusion that businesses have a great business case for doing because it has a positive effect on the company. But it also comes with risks. So people continue the practice. They just don't call it diversity and inclusion and they don't really publicize it on their website in spite of the fact that they continue to do it. And that's a confusing landscape. But we can't afford to have business take its eye off the critical nature of addressing social and environmental problems we have. We just can't afford that.
9:31 Speaker 00 Yeah. What, and I'm curious because you also teach at NYU, right? You teach business class. When you have young people who are saying, hey, you know, I want to do what you did at Seventh Generation. I want to start something that's going to have an impact and that's going to be a sustainable, robust business. What advice do you give? Because it's a very different world than it was when, you know, you and Alan were, you know, hippies in Burlington, Vermont, starting Seventh Generation.
10:00 Speaker 01 You have to really understand the business case for doing what you're doing. You can't just decide I'm going to do some good things and make some good products and make people happy. You really have to understand from a financial perspective why doing the right thing has economic and financial benefits for the business, makes you more competitive. And as I said before, helps you attract the best talent that performs at its highest level of capability. And there is abundant research, much of which NYU has done itself, that demonstrates that people that run businesses in a responsible,
10:42 Speaker 01 purpose-driven fashion, generate better results, more profits, better growth. And as young students, they have to be very familiar with that landscape. So they can make the business case to investors who want to know that that money will be used effectively and successfully.
11:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, for sure. Jeffrey, great advice. Why don't we bring on some callers and see if we can give some more advice?
11:09 Speaker 01 Love to do that. Can't wait.
11:11 Speaker 00 All right, let's bring our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation. Welcome to the show. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
11:21 Speaker 02 Hi, Guy and Jeffrey. I'm Christina Molinaro, calling from Dayton, Ohio. I'm the co-founder of Twenty Five and Pine with my husband, Nick. We build functional furniture for parents and kids to share, where you make your space theirs in 10 seconds.
11:34 Speaker 00 Awesome. Christina, thanks for calling. So you're in Dayton, and you make furniture for toddlers? Is that, is that, am I describing that right?
11:42 Speaker 02 Well, a bunch of kids' furniture is built just for toddlers and just for kids. And so when we had our son, our furniture stopped working for us. It was either made for them or made for us, and it didn't work for both of us. So you're constantly choosing to sit on the floor and be uncomfortable, or send them into a playroom while you're emptying the dishwasher and they're somewhere else. And that's just like the part that nobody thinks about, I think, when they're designing kids' furniture, is that your space starts separating you from your kid. So we wanted to make furniture that helps you stay in the same space.
12:12 Speaker 00 So tell me a little bit about what the furniture looks like. Is it, is it, I mean, do you sell sofas and that? Like, what do you sell?
12:21 Speaker 02 So we built our business around side tables, pretty much. And so where we started was with a table and a chair set for him. So for him, it's a place to read, have a snack, play with his toys, something that's his size and easy for him to use.
12:33 Speaker 00 Okay.
12:33 Speaker 02 But then for us, it also works as well. So it's It's weight tested for adults, but the chair that he sits in actually flips and becomes a stool for one of us. And then the table flips into a bench so we can sit down and be a part of it with him. So we're not hovering, we're actually like sitting and participating and connecting with our son.
12:52 Speaker 00 So when you put it on its side, it's a chair or a bench. And then when you flip it, it's like a bench for an adult or you could use it as a side table, basically.
13:00 Speaker 02 Exactly.
13:01 Speaker 00 Awesome. And where are you making this stuff? Are you guys making it yourself?
13:07 Speaker 02 Yes. So we have been making all of everything by hand.
13:13 Speaker 00 Wow. So you're doing it like in your garage or like you rented a warehouse space or?
13:18 Speaker 02 So we did start in our apartment garage. And then when we bought a house, we moved it to the basement. And then a video went viral on Tik Tok and we no longer could fit in our basement and had to move into a commercial space. And luckily one became available, so we've been there since.
13:33 Speaker 00 Well, and give us a sense of what, how you're doing on sales.
13:37 Speaker 02 So our sales over the past like five years has been about $600,000.
13:42 Speaker 00 Is that in total or is that every year?
13:44 Speaker 02 Total sales for the past five years.
13:46 Speaker 00 Yep. Got it. All right. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us?
13:51 Speaker 02 So like I just mentioned, our business grew through organic social media, but we've reached the point where posting alone is no longer enough. So our question now is how do we build a sustainable way to reach parents who feel this problem before they know our product exists?
14:05 Speaker 00 Okay. Jeffrey Haldor, I want to bring you in here. This is a kid's bench or chair and also an adult chair and side table. It's really cool. I'm looking at the website now, but of course, you know, seems like, sounds like things have plateaued a little bit. So before you answer the question, thoughts or questions for Christina?
14:23 Speaker 01 Well, one thing I would say sort of right off the bat is don't give up on social media. Someone who's very knowledgeable once said to me, whatever worked 90 days ago, won't work today. And it is constantly changing and constantly being reinvented. And I think what you have to figure out is new ways to use social media to continue to attract new customers, because it's going to be the most cost effective way to reach people. And you know, one of the things I found is my kids are much better at it than I am. So if you're run out of ideas, find some younger people, teenagers, you know, and they might be able to help you discover new places to go, new things to do,
15:07 Speaker 01 new ways to attract the customers that want to buy this product.
15:13 Speaker 00 You mentioned Christina, something you said that you had a video that went viral or something that went viral in 20. What was that video?
15:21 Speaker 02 So that video, a bunch of the videos that have done well on social media were about this original side table that we had built our business on. The one that went mega viral was right before Christmas and it was a wine table. So you could, it would hold two glasses of wine. So you can imagine why that went viral and then our sales went off. And then that's when we were able to move into the commercial space.
15:43 Speaker 00 Was the video funny? Was it showing parent like, cause you mentioned, yeah, I mean, I've had, I have two kids that are grown now, but I remember toddler furniture is a pain. You can't sit in it. You can't, it's, it, you know, and then when the kid grows, it's useless. Like, tell me what you did with the videos.
16:01 Speaker 02 So all of our social media up to this point is just me in the shop, in my wood shop, explaining who I am, what we're doing, telling my story. So now I think it's more of just like a, I'm, it's, I'm in a different space. I'm in my house showing my kid, trying to not show his face, which is, as you probably know, a sensitive topic online.
16:18 Speaker 00 Sure.
16:19 Speaker 02 So I'm still trying to tell our story and whatnot. I'm just looking for other ways, I think, to reach them because I don't know that if people are just scrolling social media that they're like, oh, this is what I need. I don't, maybe the messaging isn't clicking, something is just, it's just different from what I've been selling for the past five years. So I'm just trying to figure out like what's next or what's missing or what I can do better.
16:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
16:41 Speaker 01 Do all the visitors for your social media come through to your website? Is that how it's set up?
16:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, in the past. And so a lot of our followers and email subscribers and things are from our old products and things as well.
16:55 Speaker 01 One of the things that you might look at is to also, there's probably lots of benefits to your product that people are not aware of when they see it online. And maybe there's an electronic newsletter that you can send out to everybody who's interested that shares more benefits than they might get from a TikTok or a Instagram message. And you know, maybe it's about the materials you use. Maybe it's a story about a friend of yours who used the furniture in an unusual way. Maybe it's about the finishes that are maybe non-toxic and safer for people to have in their home.
17:35 Speaker 01 Dig into all of the stories that you can tell about your business and find a way to keep telling those stories and engaging people in ways that will make them feel excited about buying products from you.
17:49 Speaker 00 Newsletters are terrific. It's a terrific idea. You know, I was thinking, Christina, there is an opportunity, because I'm looking at your website here. And you see there are babies and toddlers using it, and that's cool and that's great. And it says toddler furniture that doesn't look like kids furniture, which I think is a great message. You know, a lot of pet owners want pet furniture that doesn't look like pet furniture. And there's a whole category of that kind of furniture. But I think you have an opportunity to do funny things. You know, a couple of things you could do. You could take the videos that you've made that have worked the best, and you could put money behind them, some money, right? You know, let's say a couple thousand dollars, a lot, but you can try it and really push it out on Meta and TikTok and see what happens.
18:29 Speaker 00 But I would also consider using humor, like, you know, buy an inexpensive toddler chair, you know, wooden toddler chair that a lot of people might have, maybe even a well-known brand, right? And try to put your butt in that thing. And everyone is going to see that that is a nightmare and, you know, show that you've got the solution to this problem.
18:52 Speaker 02 I agree, and that makes so much sense. I just started some small running ads just to kind of test the waters and using AI just to like help me figure out how to do ads because it is intimidating. But I guess my other like hesitation, I like the funny idea. It's, I think I get tripped up a little bit because it's, we're not, we didn't, I mean, we designed it better, but other people do like sell this product. So we have another product in line that's about to launch. That's actually, it looks like a coffee table. And then you flip the top over and it has train tracks and spots for blocks to plug into. And so you can make little tunnels and things. So I think what you're saying, I keep thinking about that table more and getting more excited about things that I could do with that as well.
19:35 Speaker 00 I think you could do versions of it. I mean, I think the other thing is it might be worthwhile sort of seeding this with, you know, 10 or 15 creators or influencers who talk about toddlers and just saying, all right, we're going to send these out, you know, we're going to take a risk here. I see these sets are not cheap, right? But maybe you send a stool, you pick 10 influencers, you say, we're just going to send it to them and with no ask, but hopefully it'll work and hopefully they might talk about it.
20:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's a good idea.
20:09 Speaker 01 And you don't have to go after people that have a million followers.
20:12 Speaker 00 Exactly.
20:13 Speaker 01 The people with 10,000, 5,000, 100 followers are much more open to doing something with you and they won't charge you money. I think they'll be happy to help. And that's the way I would build sort of what you call brand ambassadors. People that love what you're doing and keep posting about it because they're excited about what you've accomplished.
20:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's a good point, too. And I'm sure parents who are busy with toddlers running around would be excited to have something to make their days easier, which is exactly what we're going after. So that'll make sense.
20:48 Speaker 00 Yeah. It's a, it's a really cool idea. I mean, again, I think, I think amplify the best performing content with some, a little bit of money if you can and try it and send it to some influencers with 5,000 or 10,000 followers. It's, that's, you know, significant and, and see what happens.
21:08 Speaker 02 I'll try it. It's so intimidating, but I, I'll do it.
21:14 Speaker 00 Good, good luck. The brand is called 25 and Pie. Christina Molinaro, thanks so, so much for calling in.
21:18 Speaker 02 Thank you so much for having me. Big fan, so thanks.
21:21 Speaker 00 All right. Thank you. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.
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25:16 Speaker 00 Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation. And Jeffrey, you ready for the next call? Absolutely. Let's go. Okay, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
25:37 Speaker 03 Sure. My name is Phil Halsted. I am co-founder with my wife Sarah of Red Truck Orchards. I'm calling from our farm here in Northport, Michigan. And Red Truck Orchards produces vinegar from cherries. We live on a cherry farm. And our cherries are a super fruit, so they're full of these natural anthocyanins, which act as antioxidants and anti-inflammatories in our bodies. Our cherry vinegar is good for you. It tastes great, and it's made and bottled right here on the farm.
26:06 Speaker 00 Wow, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in, Phil. So cherries, I guess I should have known this. Are there like a big thing in in that part of Michigan?
26:16 Speaker 03 Cherries are a big thing like in New York, Utah, obviously in Northwest.
26:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
26:21 Speaker 03 But up here in Michigan, we call it the tart cherry capital of the world. It's here in Traverse City, Michigan. We're just north of there.
26:29 Speaker 00 Which is like the perfect cherry you want for a cherry pie, actually.
26:33 Speaker 03 It's a great cherry pie and our vinegar is made from these tart Montmorency cherries that have these health benefits, but also very flavorful with a mix in also sweet cherries like those that you buy in the grocery store.
26:47 Speaker 00 All right. Cherry vinegar, I think, pretty straightforward. You basically take cherries and let them sit and like grapes and turn into basically wine and then you let that keep fermenting and turns into vinegar, right?
27:00 Speaker 03 Kind of. What we've done is create a proprietary process in which we take the whole cherry without the pit. Instead of taking cherry juice and just laying it ferment, we take the whole cherry, yes, with yeast, create this exceptional wine and then we destroy it with this specifically cultured acido bacteria we've developed to make the flavor and the type of cherry vinegar that we have. So it's a skin on double fermented product. We're not taking juice. We're not taking and flavoring apple cider vinegar.
27:33 Speaker 00 All right. And so your product is cherry vinegar and where do you, are you selling this mainly online?
27:41 Speaker 03 We're selling it online as well as we are just getting to about 50 retailers here throughout Michigan and then we're trying to scale that up with a distributor. So this business is built to scale so that we can achieve our purpose, which is to support and strengthen farms here up in Northwest Michigan. They're in distress. They need some additional sustainable pricing and we're trying to help them.
28:05 Speaker 00 So you're buying up the cherries and then turning into vinegar and is this going to be your only product or do you have a sort of down the line, do you imagine sort of creating a broader product line?
28:18 Speaker 03 Really good question. We see cherry vinegar as being like a new category of vinegar. So you have like your apple cider vinegar, you have your grapes vinegars. So we can make a balsamic version, we can age it, we can take it and flavor it if you've seen like apple cider vinegar, but it's a new vinegar base. And then what we want to do is basically we have a Pipeline of these new products over time that we'll bring out.
28:44 Speaker 00 Great. And what's, how much does a bottle cost?
28:47 Speaker 03 Seventeen ninety-nine.
28:48 Speaker 00 So this is a premium priced product, which means it must be a premium product.
28:53 Speaker 03 It is a premium product. It has, if you think of it as apple cider vinegar, so we have the mother. We have the same acidity vinegar, vinegar is good for you, but then we have all these polyphenols and the super fruit of cherries. And of course, as we get our scale up, then we can bring that price down.
29:09 Speaker 00 Got it. Okay. So you're still, and I imagine not yet profitable because you're, you're still pretty new.
29:15 Speaker 03 Unfortunately not. Yes.
29:16 Speaker 00 Yeah. Okay. And before I bring in Jeffrey, your question for us?
29:20 Speaker 03 Well, when our purpose to achieve and support local farms by producing this vinegar, what we're trying to do is really understand our messaging and actions that would accelerate trial and increase purchase intent. That's what we're trying to do.
29:34 Speaker 00 So you're trying to figure out a messaging here. Okay. Jeffrey, I want to bring you in here. I'm, as you are a healthy guy and I should say, I drink a tablespoon of diluted apple cider vinegar every day. I believe in it. I put it in water. I think it's great for insulin, increasing insulin resistance and blood sugar management, and I love it.
29:56 Speaker 00 So I've been doing that for years. Anyway, Jeffrey, messaging around cherry cider vinegar.
30:02 Speaker 01 Well, you shared with me some of the educational literature you have, which I think is terrific because I think the primary challenge we have is letting people know all of the benefits that this product has. That's a tough thing to do at retail. It's very hard to put all that information onto a bottle. And consumers don't spend a lot of time reading labels in the store. So I would continue to work away at your social media. I think that there's many, many people that would be interested in this product. You have lots of information to share with them. And I would drive people to your website to buy by sharing the information on places
30:46 Speaker 01 like TikTok and Instagram.
30:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, you know, I'm looking at your website here there it's, you know, it's nice, but there are a lot of things that you can do, small tweaks, I think, that will help you start to shape your message. Jeffrey is talking about social media, which is absolutely critical, but you got to shape the message that you're going to deliver on social media. And I think that one of the easiest things, the low hanging fruit, so to speak here, is helping people understand how to use this. So morning ritual, one tablespoon of water, upgrade your salad for lunch. In the afternoon, pour some of this in a glass with sparkling water and you've got a great pick me up. Just something like that, you know, where
31:27 Speaker 00 it's like one, two, three every day. And then you start to shape and help people understand how they should be using this.
31:36 Speaker 01 I think you also have to work a little bit on your search situation because when you type in cherry vinegar, you end up getting sherry vinegar, not cherry vinegar. And that is going to be confusing to your potential customers. And we got to get the algorithm to work so that it doesn't send people to the wrong place when they're searching for you, because that's critical.
32:01 Speaker 03 Got it. Yeah. Good point.
32:04 Speaker 00 You know, I think that for you, it's really what you're after is that first taste. Like you need, you've got to get people to try it, right? You want to generate that first try. And I imagine you're going to farmer's markets, probably locally, right? But, you know, let's face it, Northport is, I'm looking at the map here. I mean, Traverse City is the closest kind of big, bigger place. It's small, right? You want to get to Grand Rapids, you want to get to Chicago, Milwaukee, and you want to get into stores where you can sample this, where you can get people to just taste this. And you got to be there to do that.
32:44 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
32:45 Speaker 01 Nothing replaces those sampling programs because many people have never experienced this before. And you've got to convert them. And as Guy said, there's no better way to convert them than to let them taste the product.
33:02 Speaker 03 Agreed. We have sampling set up here locally, farmers markets, local stores, retailers. We're down in Detroit area. So we've got some distribution down there, about 10, 15 stores. But absolutely, we need to get more people to trial it and then follow through.
33:19 Speaker 01 What do you do after someone makes a purchase on your website? When's the next time they hear from you?
33:24 Speaker 03 I think we need to improve that for sure. What they do is we bring them on to our email list if they opt in for that. And then basically about every two weeks or three weeks, we're sending out email updates on the business, the farm recipes. We have about 50 recipes online and building upon that. I really question whether that's frequent enough, whether every two weeks is sufficient. What are your thoughts?
33:52 Speaker 01 I don't think two weeks is bad. I have some people do that daily and I find it quite irritating and I unsubscribe. And I think the more fulfilling the experience of reading it can be by giving them really important health information and telling the story of the farm and the opportunity that you're creating for retailers. That's going to draw people into the product. And unfortunately, sometimes it takes many, many newsletters before someone will give you a second chance. But one way to monitor the health of your business is how many people come back for that second purchase. I would hope that it would be over 50% at least to know that you've satisfied them with what they bought.
34:36 Speaker 03 We are excited about that. We've got people in California, New Jersey, buying a third time, fourth time, fifth time, people buying two bottles, four bottles, they're sharing it with their friends. So we're seeing that. We just need to grow faster if we were going to achieve our goal.
34:53 Speaker 00 And I think a lot of it is just nailing down your message, right? Millions of people are interested in metabolic health. And so I would really tap into some of that. One tablespoon of water to regulate blood sugar every day. Upgrade your salad and then have it in sparkling water in the afternoons. Just hammer those ideas and start at the website and then build those out at the farmer's markets, on social media, videos of people tasting this and saying, wait a minute, this is great. So I would really start with just nailing down the message and then amplifying that out wherever you go.
35:33 Speaker 03 I like that. Super simple.
35:35 Speaker 00 Super simple. Yeah. Last thoughts for Phil. Jeffrey?
35:39 Speaker 01 Well, you know, as we talked about before, Guy, finding people, particularly people that people will recognize, talking about loving the product is a way to attract attention to your brand. So if you can find people, and I would send them samples. I would find some people that maybe are really into cooking or into these types of products. Send them a sample blind, ask them what they think about it. And if they love it, maybe they'll talk about it.
36:10 Speaker 00 Yeah. And finally, you've got a great story. Michigan cherries, specific cherries that really are about this part of Michigan. People love that. And I think you could also lean into that as well.
36:25 Speaker 03 Okay, very good. Thank you. And come visit the farm.
36:28 Speaker 00 I would love to, yeah.
36:30 Speaker 03 Bloom will be here in May and cherries will start in July.
36:33 Speaker 00 I mean, I think it's one of the nicest places to be in the summer for sure, right?
36:37 Speaker 03 It's gorgeous.
36:37 Speaker 00 It's going to be amazing, yeah.
36:39 Speaker 03 But keep it a secret. You don't want too many people coming up.
36:42 Speaker 00 Phil Halstead of Red Trick Orchards, thanks so much. Good luck.
36:46 Speaker 03 Thank you.
36:47 Speaker 00 All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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38:41 Speaker 00 Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation, and let's bring in our next caller.
38:51 Speaker 05 Hi Guy and Jeffrey. My name is Caroline Buck. I'm here in Oakland, California. My husband and I started Petaluma, a direct-to-consumer dog food company, making plant-based formulas using whole food ingredients like chickpeas, pumpkin, peanut butter, tasty stuff like that.
39:10 Speaker 00 Awesome. Welcome to the show. Okay, so it's a direct-to-consumer, plant-based dog food company.
39:15 Speaker 05 Yes.
39:16 Speaker 00 Tell me about, I'm sure the first question you get a million times is, well, don't dogs eat meat? Isn't that, aren't they carnivores?
39:24 Speaker 05 Of course, yeah. It's the same question that most vegans vegetarians get when they go home for Thanksgiving for the first time, too, right? Like, aren't you wasting away now? Most people, I think, have been fed mostly like a marketing story about what dogs should be eating. They co-evolved with us 20, 30,000 years ago, maybe even longer ago, and they ate our scraps. And for most of human history and most parts of the world, we didn't throw out a lot of meat. So they had to evolve to have digestive enzymes to break down carbohydrates and starches. And they are true omnivores, like humans.
40:00 Speaker 00 Yeah. How, how did you come, I mean, imagine you and maybe your husband are both vegetarians or vegans?
40:07 Speaker 05 Yes. I had been kind of flirting with being vegetarian most of my life, but didn't really go full tilt until maybe 2016, 2017, on a New Year's resolution. I just went cold turkey and never looked back. I have a couple of dogs. And living at the time in San Francisco, I had a very crystal conversion moment of walking my dog in Golden Gate Park and him playing with a pig on a leash, someone's pet pig. And it was just like, all right, I'm officially, the lines have officially blurred. I now need to, to knock this off. So it was a personal dietary change before it became one for my dog.
40:46 Speaker 00 And how did you come up with this business idea? Did you have experience with pet food?
40:51 Speaker 05 No. I spent most of my career in tech. I've been in the Bay Area for my entire adult life. I worked at lots of startups. I saw lots of entrepreneurs up close. It took me a long time to want to create something myself, but it came out of a need and a desire for a product. I was, you know, someone who wasn't buying meat for myself. I was still buying like a 20 pound bag of mostly processed animal products every couple of weeks for my dogs. And it felt really incongruous. And vets have been prescribing vegetarian dog food for decades to manage allergies. The most common allergies to dogs, kind of strangely compared to humans, is chicken
41:34 Speaker 05 and beef. So it's not new, but I couldn't find something that felt like it was a similar quality level to what I'd been feeding before. So it started out in my husband and I making it ourselves, small batches. When you realize how much dog food you have to make it, you know, that gets hairy quickly. And it took us a long time to make something that we felt really excited and confident about.
41:59 Speaker 00 And this is dry dog food, right?
42:00 Speaker 05 Correct. Yeah. We make our food in a bakery. So it's not kibble. It's made the way like a treat would be made traditionally in an oven.
42:09 Speaker 00 So slow, low temperatures and, and, okay. Before we bring in Jeffrey, your question for us?
42:18 Speaker 05 So my question, plant-based dog food is obviously polarizing and it takes a few minutes to get grounded in what we're doing and why. And my instinct as a marketer has always been to just be super transparent and let the evidence, let the science do the work. But I think the controversy of the category, it can spark a lot of conversation and curiosity, but can also bring some outrage, especially in the world of running online ads or social media. So my question is, as a brand, how do you feed that curiosity without triggering the outrage?
42:53 Speaker 00 Oh, I got some good thoughts here. Jeffrey Holland, I want to bring you in here. Before we answer Caroline's question, any, any questions for her thoughts?
43:01 Speaker 01 Well, just tell me a little bit more about the outrage. Where is that coming from? What's creating that?
43:08 Speaker 05 You know, I think some of it is that most people have never heard of it before. So I think there is like a bit of a knee jerk reaction that people have of like, that's wrong, or that's not possible type of thing. And then food is just, as both of you know, very emotional and polarizing. And people have super strong opinions and especially dogs have kind of risen to the status of children for a lot of people. So what you're feeding them is a big thing.
43:37 Speaker 01 And are there any health studies about dogs on this diet getting healthier than alternatives?
43:45 Speaker 05 There are excellent studies that have come out in the last two years, really, showing that they go to the vet less often. There's lots of really specific things about plants that are similar to the benefits that humans get when they eat more fiber, for example, or they have more anti-inflammatory rich foods in their diet. But I would say like the most compelling evidence is just that it's as good and probably better than a lot of traditional dog foods. And I think that's, I've tried to, I've kind of strayed away from making a claim that it's like so much better because I don't want to lose people in feeling like I'm proselytizing or being preachy.
44:25 Speaker 01 I think you have to question that because
44:29 Speaker 05 Yeah.
44:30 Speaker 01 I'm not sure people want to buy something that's as good as what they're getting now or as good as something else that they can get. So I'm not sure I would go with that positioning. I think you've got to feel proud about what you're selling. And if it's not better, make it better because I think to survive, you've got to have a better alternative than other people have. You've got to have a story that talks about why you are better. And to the extent possible, you have to have evidence that backs that up.
44:58 Speaker 05 Yep.
44:59 Speaker 00 Yeah. So it's interesting because I'm looking at your website, okay, and it says guilt-free shelf-stable. And now, now I click on the website, Jeffrey, for Seventh Generation, and what does it say? The first thing it says is leave dishes extra clean. It doesn't say guilt-free cleaning. It doesn't say a better, it says extra clean dishes. It's talking about the function. And I think, to me, I think that if you start with, hey, it's guilt-free, it can be polarizing because some people might say, I don't feel guilty about serving my dog meat-based foods.
45:37 Speaker 00 But I think you should really use that skepticism as the fuel to tell your story and really actually Surface that. So, so if you were to make a video or you were to even have a message on your website, you would start with like, wait a minute, dogs can eat plant-based? Is this actually like good for them? Because this sounds wrong. And, and, and then you can say, well, that's a fair question. So let me kind of walk you through it. And really say, well, actually their bodies really respond well to simple whole foods like, you know, peanuts, peanut butter and, you know, oats, or whatever you're putting in the, in the food, sweet potatoes.
46:19 Speaker 01 You know, a crazy idea, but I think your best customers are going to be vegetarians who have dogs. And if you can find people who are vegetarians and have dogs, you're going to make a quick connection with the belief they already have about this diet being healthier. And the logic of it's good for me, it's probably good for my dog.
46:43 Speaker 05 Yeah, that's definitely been our, our core customer in the last few years. It's been that person who already has made that choice for themselves. They've already, you know, they've lived the Thanksgiving dinner without the turkey for many years.
46:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
46:56 Speaker 01 How do you find those people?
46:58 Speaker 05 Today, I mean, it's a lot of word of mouth, organic traffic to our site. We do run ads mostly on Google and we do run some like very small social campaigns. I've lost a bit of a stomach for social advertising. I haven't given up on it. We still do it in a smaller way. You're wading into the deep end sometimes and it can be a, a lot.
47:19 Speaker 00 And you are direct to consumer only, right? You're not doing, are you doing farmers markets?
47:23 Speaker 05 We are in Arowan stores in Los Angeles. Other than that, we're in just really small pet boutiques, mostly in LA and San Francisco.
47:33 Speaker 00 I, Jeffrey, I'm going to disagree with you. I don't think that, that, that they want to only appeal to, predominantly appeal to vegetarians. This is a very small market. I mean, we've looked at this. The number of people are vegetarians in the US is tiny. It's not enough, right? You want to appeal to people who do eat meat, but who might say, wait, this is interesting. Like I'm looking at your site here and, you know, I have an old dog, right? And my old dog has some kidney challenges and I see that maybe some of your food could benefit her, right? It's like that kind of stuff, you know, that I would really lean into. But, but start with this, acknowledge the skepticism, acknowledge because we have been.
48:14 Speaker 00 Sort of trained to think that dogs need to eat meat protein. And also, dog food's gross. The way they use that scrap meat and just the crappiest cuts of meat is really nasty. And it's why there are brands, premium brands of like refrigerated dog food that have done so well because they are focused on, you know, really expensive cuts. You have an alternative here and it's a great alternative. And that's, that's why I would, I would try to lean into social media, give it another chance, but try it with this, hey, it's, I get the skepticism kind of message.
48:53 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think I've, I've developed a siffer spine in the last few years, too. It's just polarization comes with some downsides, right? Like, I think it just, you have to kind of treat it as a sunk cost.
49:07 Speaker 01 What's the mix between online and retail sales?
49:10 Speaker 05 It's like 99% online.
49:14 Speaker 01 Okay.
49:15 Speaker 00 So these are repeat customers?
49:16 Speaker 05 Yes, yeah, our, our core is subscribers.
49:20 Speaker 00 Awesome.
49:21 Speaker 01 Retail will take a lot of energy and a lot of attention. And if 99% of your people are coming online, that's where I would focus my energy.
49:30 Speaker 05 I agree, and I think dog food is still one of those things that makes a lot of sense for subscription. It's, it's awkward to buy, it's heavy, it's bulky, you can't run out. So I, I agree with you. And also, I don't have any experience in retail, so that's been a big reason why we haven't done it.
49:46 Speaker 00 I see you're doing free samples, which is really smart. Try before you buy. The other thing I would, I would, I don't know if you're doing this on your site, but, you know, every time you switch a dog's or any pet's food, except for one of my pets, he'll just eat anything. He'll just, she will eat absolutely, they're finicky, right? Sometimes like, what is this? And so, you know, maybe you should also encourage people to, hey, start, just mix it in with your food and, and try that.
50:13 Speaker 05 And similar to humans, like, if you're not 100% plant-based, you still get benefits from eating plants, right? Like, it's not a pure, it doesn't need to be all or nothing. Incorporating more fibrous foods in your dog's diet is positive. That's actually a very controversial sentence in the pet food world, but I feel confident in saying that adding more plants to your dog's diet is, is a good thing.
50:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I agree. Jeffrey, any, any final thoughts here?
50:42 Speaker 01 No, I would agree with Guy. You can't give up on social media. It's critical to grow your business and experiment with small amounts of money until you strike on something that works well. But you got to experiment.
50:57 Speaker 00 Yeah, and one other thing is, I think you got to, I'm going to throw something at you and it's going to be a pain, but I think you got to introduce dog treats.
51:07 Speaker 05 We have a chew, like a jerky, but not a treat. That's something we've been toying with for a while. So we have like a, it's just a single ingredient, sliced, dehydrated sweet potato. That's like an alternative for like a chicken jerky.
51:23 Speaker 00 Okay, nice. That's great. And that's a good start and maybe you can distribute that to, you know, some of these boutiques or cool stores that you like that where people take their dogs and people could just hand them a, you know, a treat. So you may want to try something like that. But I do think giving people the opportunity to start with a treat could be really cool.
51:43 Speaker 05 That's a good idea.
51:45 Speaker 00 Yeah. Caroline Buck, the brand is called Petaluma. It is a plant-based dog food company. Good luck. Thank you for calling.
51:52 Speaker 05 Thank you.
51:54 Speaker 00 Jeffrey, before I let you go, I ask this question of every guest who's come back on to the advice line, which is if you could go back to your time at Seventh Generation, when you really were like, you know, catalog business and just starting this out. And what do you wish you would have known back then that you now know with, you know, decades of experience and perspective that might have been helpful for you back then?
52:16 Speaker 01 One of the things that I've reflected on is growth. And we are obsessed with growth. The bigger, the faster, the better. And I think that that is a dangerous thing. I think that we need to monitor how obsessed we are with how fast we grow because it's a dangerous thing to be moving so quickly. And it's stressful and it challenges your employees. And I think that we need to, you know, I was excited when we were going 50% every year, but it was killing people at the same time. So I would say pick something that's more in moderation, that is comfortable, that doesn't create the challenges and the stress and the sleepless nights that growing
53:01 Speaker 01 that quickly does.
53:03 Speaker 00 That's Seventh Generation co-founder Jeffrey Hollander. Jeffrey, thanks so much for coming back onto the show.
53:08 Speaker 01 My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
53:10 Speaker 00 And by the way, if you haven't heard Jeffrey and his co-founder Alan Newman's original, How I Built This episode about Seventh Generation, you've got to check it out. It's really, really good. It's got a lot of wisdom. It's a great episode. Check it out. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.
53:24 Speaker 01 We were working with a tissue paper manufacturer out in Wisconsin that made all the paper products.
53:30 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:31 Speaker 01 They thought we were crazy, by the way, because, you know, we were selling unbleached, 100% recycled fiber bathroom tissue, which was the scratchy stuff that you found in a gas station.
53:45 Speaker 06 And we insisted that it said, "Made with 100% recycled paper." It had always been made with 100% recycled, but they hid that in all the material.
53:54 Speaker 00 Oh, because consumers didn't want that?
53:56 Speaker 06 No. Why would consumers want--
53:58 Speaker 00 No. Wow.
53:59 Speaker 06 Toilet paper made of recycled paper? They thought we were absolutely out of our mind.
54:03 Speaker 00 Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well.
54:44 Speaker 00 This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was Jimmy Keely. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
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