Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Advice Line with Jeff and Curran Dandurand of Jack Black Skin Care About this episode Jack Black Skin Care co-founders Jeff and Curran Dandurand join Guy on the Advice Line to answer questions from three early-stage founders. Plus, how the Dandurands are passing the entrepreneurial torch one carbonated beverage at a time.
First we meet Inga from Maine, who’s navigating the role advisors can play for her kelp farm and skincare business. Next we hear from Ashley in Utah, who’s on a quest to find her target market for her luxury home and tableware brand. Then Brent in British Columbia, who’s learning how to build a strong culture around his camping cookware business.
Thank you to the founders of Cold Current Kelp, Âme Atendre and GOSO Cookware for being part of the show.
If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.
And to hear the founding story of Jack Back Skin Care, check out Jeff and Curran’s first appearance on the show in 2023 https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/b72b6aa1-6ecd-447e-9e8e-cd37f369a33f/embed.
This episode was produced by Iman Maani. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.
You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com and on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/.
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Transcript 10,348 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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5:18 Guy Raz? Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. And each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And so if you are building something and you need advice, go ahead and give us a call and you might just be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message with your name, a bit about your business, and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. Or you can send us a voice memo at [email protected] . And make sure to tell us how to reach you. Also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.
6:03 Guy Raz? It's filled with insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com or on Substack, and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's go. Joining me this week are Jeff and current Dan Durand, co-founders of Jack Black Skincare. Jeff and current, it's great to have you back on the show.
6:23 Speaker 01 Great to be here.
6:24 Speaker 02 Thanks for having us. Good to see you again.
6:25 Guy Raz? Great to see you. You, of course, were guests on How I Built This originally in 2023. And if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link in the podcast description. You guys launched this business in 2000 as a men's skincare brand, and this is back when almost nobody was thinking about the the men's skincare market. And I we should be clear, because I know this sometimes comes up. This is not the same name as the well-known actor. You guys came up with that name independently, just to confirm.
6:54 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Right. No relation.
6:56 Guy Raz? No relation. But a great but a great guy. Seems like a great guy. Actually, I've interviewed him before. He's an amazing guy. There are so many awesome lessons in that episode, including how you like targeted golf clubs and men's locker rooms and sort of higher end gyms and and how you sort of were inspired by cigar labels on old cigar boxes and how that really helped you gain traction with the brand. And again, we will put a link to that episode in the podcast description. But before we get to our callers today, I was hoping if I could ask you guys a couple of questions. So it's, you know, just sort of thinking about skincare, it is incredibly crowded market, right? Even more skincare brands for men now than there were when you guys launched in 2000. And while it's not
7:39 Guy Raz? the same type of crowding as the women's skincare market, there's still a lot more competitors. So if you were starting Jack Black today, you know, it's a different environment. Do you think you would use the same playbook? Or do you think you might do things a little bit differently?
7:53 Speaker 02 I think it'd be very difficult to start a a men's skincare brand today. The space is very crowded. I've noticed going into stores that the retail space allowed for men's skincare has shrunk. I think a lot of that's because of the direct to consumer strategy that most brands take.
8:12 Guy Raz? Yes.
8:13 Speaker 02 So there's less space available. Honestly, I don't think I would do it again. I think that our timing was so good. I just think it'd be very, very hard to start a men's skincare company today. I really do and gain traction and build a big brand.
8:29 Guy Raz? Do you think that, I mean, there's, obviously, there's two ways of going about it. You guys started with the sort of the wholesale approach, right? Trying to sell to boutiques and then department stores. But a lot of brands we talked to on the show are really focused on direct to consumer. Harder today than it was 10 years ago, right? Because there are so many brands are doing this. But we have had, you know, recently, we've told the story of a brand called Beyond Yoga, which really started back in 2005 as a wholesale brand, you know, really selling to retailers. I mean, it's almost counterintuitive, but do you think that if you were trying to start it today, you would still go with the wholesale route, still trying to sell it in retail?
9:07 Speaker 01 I think so. I think for a strong brand, you need to have both. You need to be in brick and mortar and you need to have a strong presence online. Because people do want to touch and feel and try the product and they want to experience it before they buy it. So I think, you know, the successful brands in the long term are going to be able to play well in both areas.
9:28 Guy Raz? You know, I know that both of you guys have stepped away from, from the company a few years after it was acquired. Tell me a little bit about some of the things that you guys are up to. I mean, I know you're in Dallas. There's a lot of startups there. You're probably asked to come to all kinds of startup events and talk about what you built. You know, what, what kinds of things are you guys up to?
9:46 Speaker 02 Our son Dylan started a company. He's called Not Beer. And Curran is helping him with the branding on that. I've helped them a little bit with the distribution side of it.
10:00 Guy Raz? And from what I understand, Not Beer is sparkling water, right?
10:04 Speaker 01 Right. But with a fun beer-like positioning and personality. Yeah. So socially, it's, it's really fun to drink when you don't want to drink a beer, but you feel like you're drinking a beer. And I think from the product standpoint, it's got a really smooth, mellow carbonation. So it's a lot easier to drink than, say, Topo Chico. And he's already gotten some good distribution. So he's in what I call the dark days of a startup. A lot of heavy lifting and a lot of setbacks and a lot of tough sledding, but we've been there and so we can advise them on how to stay resilient and focused. I'm on a couple of boards of beauty companies, all women's brands.
10:49 Guy Raz? And you go way back in this industry because you were, you know, obviously had 15 years of experience in the industry even before you started more, before you started Jack Black.
10:59 Speaker 01 Yep, many decades. That's pretty much all I've done is beauty, beauty, marketing, product development and branding.
11:07 Guy Raz? It's a really, really fascinating category. We do, as you know, we do a lot of it on the show. Are you guys ready to take some calls? Sure, let's do it.
11:14 Speaker 01 Yep, looking forward to it.
11:16 Guy Raz? All right, let's bring in our first caller. Hello, welcome to Advice Line. You're on with Jeff and Kern Dandurand of Jack Black. Welcome to the show. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
11:28 Speaker 03 Hi, Guy, Jeff and Kern. It's so nice to be here. My name is Inga Potter. I'm calling from Kidderi, Maine. I'm the co-founder of Cold Current Kelp, where a women-founded kelp farm and skincare company. We grow kelp regeneratively off the coast of Maine, and we use our kelp to make our skincare products.
11:48 Guy Raz? Amazing. Perfect, perfect people to have on. So tell me a little bit more about, about Cold Current Kelp. So you harvest kelp off the coast of Maine, and then you turn that into like creams or what? Like, what are the products?
12:00 Speaker 03 So we make an extract from the kelp, and we currently, our product is a facial oil. It's called Kelp Glow. So we make it with nourishing oils that are great for your skin. We infuse our kelp extract into the oil. We have three scents and two sizes, and that's, that's our product as of now. We launched in August of 2023.
12:18 Guy Raz? And selling directly to consumers through your website.
12:21 Speaker 03 We sell directly to consumers, and we're currently in about 20 boutiques and a few small spas and, and stores.
12:29 Guy Raz? Inga, before we bring Jeff and Kern, tell us a little bit about how you, how this started. How did, how did you get into this? Do you have a background in skincare?
12:36 Speaker 03 No, actually, I'm a marine biologist by background.
12:39 Guy Raz? Okay, that's a good background to be involved in sea kelp harvesting.
12:42 Speaker 03 Yes, exactly. So sort of what drew me first to the business is actually the environmental benefits of growing kelp and farming kelp. And it's a really exciting and growing industry in Maine. So that was sort of the initial draw. But once, my co-founder's name is Krista Rose, and once we started doing some research about kelp, learning about all of these amazing bioactive compounds, we got really excited about finding some other high value uses for it besides just the dinner plate. So we found a lot of scientific research and evidence about the benefits of kelp for your skin and for your health. And we decided that a skincare product was an achievable goal. And that's, that's sort of how we framed our company.
13:20 Guy Raz? That's super cool. And tell us what your question is for us today.
13:24 Speaker 03 So my question is, we are sort of in those dark days, as Curran referred to, where we're really just kind of very hands on and doing everything. But we're wondering about the role advisors in business development. Given the stage of growth our company is in, we're facing a lot of, you know, really critical decisions about expanding our product line, about whether or not we seek investment, we're doing some R and D. We have a lot of questions, and we're just sort of wondering what role at this stage advisors should play, and how we obtain them, and, and how do we choose them, and sort of what capacity, what that should look like.
13:59 Guy Raz? All right. So you're, and you said about 18 months in. So, and you're, how, what have you guys done in sales so far?
14:05 Speaker 03 We've done about 50,000 in the last 12 months. We're growing really organically. We haven't invested anything in marketing. So our, we're actually seeing a lot of growth. We're getting a lot of earned media. So we're getting some, some great news coverage. We've earned some government grants. So we're getting a lot of attention, and people are enjoying our product. And that's kind of where we are.
14:27 Guy Raz? All right. Let me bring Jeff and Curran. Curran, first to you. I'm sure you may have some questions for Inga. Please fire away.
14:32 Speaker 01 Okay. First of all, I love your concept. Bravo. I think it's brilliant. And I think you've got a lot of potential. I think my question to you is, where do you need help? What expertise are you lacking? Because that's where you start, right?
14:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's a great question. My, my co-founder, business partner is a former attorney. So she brings a different skill set than I do. But we are, we've never had a business, never had a skincare company. So I think some of our critical questions have to do with, right now, we have one flagship product, which we manufacture on our own. We're looking to figure out sort of how to expand our product line. Do we seek, you know, a manufacturer to do that? That's one of our biggest questions. Seeking investment is another question. How, you know, when to do that, how to go about doing it? I would say those are kind of two of our biggest questions. And also like a marketing, you know, how much should we be investing in marketing? Versus sort of the organic growth that we're seeing just by doing our own social media and things like that. So kind of everything.
15:33 Speaker 01 I mean, I think you could benefit from having an advisor that has started a company in, in the beauty space and has done it kind of bootstrapping with a lean staff, not a lot of financing. And how did they grow it? What decisions did they make? What trade-offs did they make? I mean, I feel like you need to focus on sales because nothing really happens until you sell something. And you've got a great brand, you've got a great story, but you've got to get it out there. And I think sales is super important. Maybe even more so than marketing because you need to get distribution. You need to figure out how to place your product in the right retailers.
16:11 Speaker 02 How are you opening retail stores today? What's your process to opening up the retail partners you have today?
16:18 Speaker 03 That is such a great question. Neither of us are particularly great at the selling point. So I really appreciate Karen's advice on that. And I know Jeff, you, you are so talented at that as well. We've done a couple of trade shows. That's where we've gotten the majority of our retailers. We're also on a platform called Fair. So people are reaching out to us because they're finding us on Fair, which is kind of a platform where, you know, you can put your company and your products and retailers can find you. We've done a little bit of cold calling. We really would like to get into the spa market. But we're, we're not, we don't really have much of a process, I guess, is the long answer to that question.
16:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, the sales process is going to be, you know, critical at this point in your development. I think going to gift shows, going to spa shows, hiring independent contractors, salespeople to help you, anything that you can do to drive sales.
17:11 Speaker 03 How much emphasis would you put on the trade show circuit versus choosing companies and approaching them because they look like they align with our brand and investing in that?
17:21 Speaker 02 I think you have to do both. I think you have to cold call and try to connect with retailers that you think would be a good fit for your brand. I think you need to try to find salespeople that have similar type products that they're selling. They may be able to bring your brand in to sell as well. I mean, most of these salespeople are on straight commission. They're paid usually 15% of the wholesale order. So you don't have a lot of expense associated with having these people. But I think you got to really focus on opening up some accounts at this point.
17:55 Speaker 03 Okay, I appreciate that. So are there freelance salespeople then that could represent multiple brands?
18:00 Speaker 02 Hundreds of them, thousands.
18:02 Speaker 03 Okay.
18:02 Speaker 02 And off, off. Or rep groups. Yeah, independent rep groups.
18:07 Speaker 03 Okay.
18:08 Speaker 02 All over the country. And we use them to help us build and open up accounts for Jack Black. We had almost 1,000 accounts like that in, you know, over the course of years.
18:20 Speaker 03 So even if we're small, they would still kind of represent us?
18:24 Speaker 02 Maybe, maybe not. I think you have to have a good story. You have to be persistent. You have to follow up with them when they say no. You have to go to shows on your own without a rep group. You just have to talk to your existing retail partners and say, who's your best salesperson? I mean, the retail accounts you have today, I think I saw 20 on your website, whatever the best account is, I would go to that account and say, who's your best salesperson that comes in here and sells you product? That's the person that you need to talk to.
19:01 Speaker 03 Okay, that's great advice.
19:03 Guy Raz? You asked Inga about advisors and mentors. And one thought I had was, you're in Maine. There is a, like in any state, and particularly Maine, where people really are proud of being Mainers, there's going to be a strong community of entrepreneurs. I mean, we've had, you know, Tom Chappell, who founded Tom's of Maine, and Roxanne Quimby, who founded Bird's Bees. I mean, it might be worthwhile just going on LinkedIn and cold, you know, contacting some Maine-based founders that have managed to build an interesting business, because, especially in the personal care space, because I think that goes pretty far. You know, people are hearing about another Maine-based entrepreneur, they want to help you.
19:48 Guy Raz? And you'd be surprised at how many people will say, sure, I'll hop on a call.
19:52 Speaker 03 Okay, I love that. I love that. Yeah, those are definitely inspirational stories. So that's great advice, too. Thank you.
19:58 Guy Raz? One of the things that I'd love to see on your website is just, it's really cool, the video of you guys harvesting the kelp, and that's awesome, and I would keep that exactly how it is. But I would love to see just what it does for the skin. I'd love to see something like that.
20:14 Speaker 03 Okay, great. Yeah, we tried to include a section about the benefits of kelp and skincare, but maybe we need to do it a little more visually? Is that what you're suggesting?
20:23 Guy Raz? Yeah, I think so, yeah.
20:24 Speaker 03 Okay, okay.
20:25 Guy Raz? I think so, for sure.
20:27 Speaker 01 Or even you could do a small clinical study that shows your product.
20:33 Speaker 03 Oh, gosh.
20:34 Speaker 01 And how it works, and the before and afters, and the measurements of the elasticity, and the, you know, fine lines and wrinkles, and hyperpigmentation. You really need to establish the efficacy of kelp for your product. Because I know you cited all the research, which is great, and that's very legit, but you want to talk about your product and how it works.
20:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, absolutely.
20:57 Speaker 01 And I'd also show your reviews. I see you have the stars, but you can't drill into it and read the reviews.
21:03 Speaker 03 Okay, so put more details about the reviews. I guess we would love to do a clinical trial. I really appreciate that advice. I guess we were sort of intimidated at the financial.
21:13 Guy Raz? Cost?
21:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:15 Guy Raz? How much would that cost? Karen, how much do you think you could do a clinical trial? Could you do it for under $10,000?
21:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think you could. I mean, you're not going to have as many people in it, but you could have enough to talk about and to show before and afters, and get some measurements. And you could get different quotes. I mean, it all comes down to how many respondents, you know, you have in the study.
21:37 Guy Raz? Yeah, that is good advice. All right. The brand is called Cold Current Kelp. Inga Potter, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck.
21:44 Speaker 03 Thank you guys so much. Thank you so much, Jeff Curran and Guy. It was so great to be here. Thank you. All right.
21:49 Guy Raz? Thank you.
21:49 Speaker 03 Bye bye.
21:50 Guy Raz? All right. Bye bye. I mean, it makes sense to me that seek help, right? You know, there would be some, a lot of benefits to it.
21:57 Speaker 01 It's a great story all around.
21:59 Guy Raz? Did you guys ever experiment with like sea vegetables or anything like that in any of your products?
22:04 Speaker 01 Oh, gosh, I think we had seaweed, but sea kelp was not on the radar. But it has a lot of great attributes. It's environmentally friendly. I just, I love their story.
22:17 Guy Raz? I mean, she's a PhD in biology. I mean, there's a legit science behind this. So I think they, the more they lean into that, the better as well.
22:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, no, I like it.
22:27 Guy Raz? We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.
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26:23 Guy Raz? Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Jeff and current Dan Durand. So Jeff, current, let's get back to it. Take another call.
26:32 Speaker 01 Yep, let's go.
26:32 Guy Raz? Let's go. Caller, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Jeff and current Dan Durand, founders of Jack Black. Hello, welcome. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.
26:42 Speaker 06 Thank you. My name is Ashley Gold. I'm calling from Park City, Utah, and I'm the founder of Am Atand, an everyday luxury home and tableware brand dedicated to helping people reconnect with themselves, their spaces and the people in their lives. We design our own products and we make them in small batch production all over the world, from the United States to France to the Czech Republic. And our designs are based on function, sensory experience and aesthetics.
27:11 Guy Raz? Welcome to the show, Ashley. Thanks for calling in. And Am Atand. And so what does that mean, by the way? I should know.
27:16 Speaker 06 No, that's French for to take care of your soul.
27:19 Guy Raz? Got, oh, nice. Okay, so it's home, it's home goods or is it, is it like dinnerware, like plates?
27:25 Speaker 06 So it's plates. Yeah, we've got ceramics, glassware, crystal, wooden cutting boards, things that are in your home.
27:35 Guy Raz? And you design everything?
27:36 Speaker 06 We just, I have a designer, Dylan Williamson, who works with me and the two of us work on them together.
27:42 Guy Raz? And you're based in Park City and do you sell any of this in, in shops in Park City? Cause I'm looking at your website, this is fancy stuff. Park City is a fancy town.
27:50 Speaker 06 We do not, and that actually is actually my question is where to find our customers. We're currently direct to consumer only. We spend a lot of money on our photography and obviously the margins are better direct to consumer, but I do think we need to find the right places, the right retail locations for people to be able to touch and feel our products, to really see the quality. Because the price point is also high. They're expensive to design and manufacture in small batch production.
28:24 Guy Raz? Tell me a little bit about how you founded the business. What were you doing before? Were you, like, did you come from this industry?
28:30 Speaker 06 I am a lawyer by training, actually. I worked at Juul, which is an e-cigarette company.
28:35 Guy Raz? Oh, yes. The infamous Juul. So you were like their in-house lawyer or one of the lawyers?
28:40 Speaker 06 I had, I wore a lot of different hats while I was there. I ended as the chief administrative officer. I testified before Congress. It was a very, very challenging job. And maybe not for the reasons you might think. I still very much believe in the product for addicted smokers. The way that society and news and everybody talked about it and I felt like failed to actually have the conversations. Just led me to this broader sense that we are having trouble disagreeing respectfully. So I moved to Park City during COVID and decided to completely change what I was doing.
29:21 Speaker 06 And was really driven by being able to sit around the table, have difficult conversations, not necessarily agree, but spend the time together and connect as humans.
29:32 Guy Raz? Wow. All right. So you left that world behind and you moved to Park City to start this new business. And is this entirely self-funded?
29:40 Speaker 06 It is.
29:41 Guy Raz? And since you launched, how, how, how have you guys done in sales total?
29:46 Speaker 06 We, it is slow going. We made about $25,000 last year and would obviously love to see that grow substantially.
29:53 Guy Raz? Got it. Okay. So your question is how can we reach the right people?
29:56 Speaker 06 Yes.
29:56 Guy Raz? Right? And, and kind of convince them. I want to bring Jeff and Kern in before we answer Ashley's questions. Do you have any questions for, for her?
30:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, I do. First of all, your website is beautiful. I love your concept. I was struck by how broad your product line is, and that makes it extremely challenging when you're a startup, just your inventory costs, the cost of maintaining all those SKUs. So my question is, do you see the 80/20 rule coming into play in your product line thus far, meaning that 20% of your products generate 80% of your sales?
30:34 Speaker 06 Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Corinne. So I had a consultant who actually suggested that we had to have a relatively large number of products to launch, and yet, to your point, we are definitely seeing a few products be the ones that resonate with people. So I I mean, I like this idea of potentially narrowing down. For example, we have these beautiful hand-blown crystal tumblers that are made in the Czech Republic, and we have three colorways right now, and now we're expanding into a couple more colorways. So maybe if we find the products that people are gravitating to, we give people more color options of
31:16 Speaker 06 those products, but simplify the number of products that we offer.
31:21 Speaker 01 I totally agree, and I think you're going to build your community by focusing on your hero products at this stage in your development and making people fall in love with those products. And then you introduce them to the rest of your line as you evolve and as you get stronger, and that's how you build your community. First, they got to fall in love with your product. And it's a bit overwhelming when you look at your site because you have so much there. It's all very beautiful, but you kind of don't know where to start. And I think if you're going to go wholesale, that is way too much for a retailer to bring in. You know, they're going to focus on the bestsellers and your hero product, and what
32:03 Speaker 01 is that entry point product to your brand? And that's where you need to really focus right now, I think.
32:09 Speaker 06 And do you think that that entry point product needs to be a more affordable product, or is it okay if it's a more expensive product?
32:18 Speaker 01 I think it depends on how expensive and how you can justify the price point, how easily you can communicate that it's worth the step up. It's always nice to have something that's a little more accessible to bring them into the brand and again, have them fall in love with you and then you can upgrade them as they become a fan. So I would be sensitive to that.
32:42 Speaker 06 Okay.
32:42 Guy Raz? One of the things that I thought of was, you know, you're in Park City, you're in an area just filled with affluent people throughout the year, especially as we speak, you know, people getting ready to go to Sundance. And I wonder how, whether you've tried to or considered working with some of the boutiques in Park City to at least have some of your items in the stores.
33:06 Speaker 06 I haven't, but I think it's a great idea.
33:09 Guy Raz? Yeah, I mean, because you know, you were in the Bay Area for a long time. So I'm sure you're familiar with Heath.
33:13 Speaker 06 Absolutely.
33:14 Guy Raz? Heath Ceramics, right? Heath Ceramics is a product that people are willing to spend a lot of money for. I have a few Heath serving bowls. They're very expensive, but they've been around for a long time and they've done things like collaborations with, you know, Alice Waters, one of the most famous chefs in America, where you go to her restaurants and everything is served on Heath, you know, plates. Now, that business was really revived in the last sort of decade or so by, by people who bought it. So to me, there's some interesting things that you could try to get people to say, oh, that's, that's Amatand. I mean, that's a really high-end brand. But you've got to, going from the website alone to that perception is challenging unless you have a celebrity who's behind you and backing
33:57 Guy Raz? this and also promoting it. I feel like you want to kind of build this out, I would say, starting in Park City because it's such a, I mean, it's one of those places that's small, but really influential because of the people who go there. Does that make sense?
34:13 Speaker 06 It totally makes sense. I think it's a great idea. And I like the idea. We've thought about influencers, but that's so, I really want this to be authentic. I want people who really, really love the products. And when people use them, they do fall in love with them. But
34:29 Speaker 01 The price point is high, so they need to be, there needs to be some reason to try it. And so maybe that is a local restaurant or some of the local retail shops.
34:41 Guy Raz? Yeah, I mean, I think that's the way to go. I mean, because it's a premium product, and by the way, with Jack Black, I mean, you guys were also making a premium product. I mean, this was not, it wasn't, you know, out of, you know, sort of astronomically expensive for most people, but it was, there was a premium price on it. And that's how you guys also positioned it, right?
35:02 Speaker 01 Right. But to your point, we made sure we did a lot of sampling and we demonstrated in store so people could feel it and touch it and see the textures and go, yeah, this is worth the premium. And so I like Guy's idea of getting placement in the right retailers so people can see your product, feel it, and see the context that it's marketed in with, in the right stores to establish your price point.
35:29 Speaker 02 I would even consider pinpointing five or six retailers in Park City, Deer Valley, you know, these super high-end ski resort areas, and going to them with, you know, I don't know how much inventory you have right now of certain items, but you could even go to them and, and I don't like to sell on consignment, we never did it, but I think you could at least offer that as a option to open up a retail account, to say, hey, I'm specifically targeting your store. I think it's beautiful. I think our products are beautiful. And I'd like to have the opportunity to sell my products here for the next 30 days. I'll come back in 30 days. If you've, whatever you've sold, you pay me for. If
36:14 Speaker 02 we don't sell anything, I'll just pick it up and move on. But I need a chance in your store. I love your store. I mean, we should do that all the time.
36:21 Speaker 01 I love that idea. That's a great idea. And you could do events. You could do events at the store and talk about your concept and talk about your products and...
36:31 Guy Raz? Yeah, and you're also, you also have the access to some really high-end hotels and resorts. Montage and Waldorf and St. Regis. There's a bunch of really super fancy hotels out there. I mean, people are paying $2,000, $3,000 a night, you know, to stay in these places and ski. I think there's a world where you try and get into those gift shops. I mean, those kinds of gift shops and those kinds of places, they want high-end local products.
36:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:57 Guy Raz? Especially high-end local products.
37:00 Speaker 01 And do you think that I need to go and sell this personally to each of these places?
37:06 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
37:06 Speaker 01 Yes, okay.
37:07 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
37:07 Speaker 01 And it's easy to do because you're there. Yeah, that's true.
37:11 Guy Raz? Jeff, you led the sales, right? It's hard. You gotta go in. How would you suggest she go and do that? Like, what should her pitch be?
37:20 Speaker 02 I mean, I would just, I would target the top five or six retailers. I'd find out who their buyer was or whoever owned the store. I would show up at their store unannounced. I'd ask for that person. I'd tell them, hey, I love your store. And I would say that, hey, I've got this product line and I want to find a home for it. I think you'd be a perfect home for this. And would you give me a shot?
37:45 Speaker 01 I can do that.
37:46 Guy Raz? All right. You got a plan. We've given you a plan, Ashley.
37:49 Speaker 01 I love it.
37:50 Guy Raz? Uh, the brand is called Amatanda. Uh, thanks so much. Good luck.
37:54 Speaker 01 Thank you so much. Thank you.
37:55 Guy Raz? Thanks for calling in. Yep.
37:56 Speaker 02 Bye-bye.
37:57 Guy Raz? Bye. Yeah, it's, I mean, I'm looking at her website. It's really, really nice stuff. But to convince, right, to convince people to spend that on this brand, I think they have to know it first a little bit, right?
38:09 Speaker 02 To Karen's point, there's a lot of items on that website. I mean,
38:13 Guy Raz? Yes.
38:15 Speaker 02 It's everything.
38:16 Speaker 01 They've got to have a lot of their capital tied up in inventory to maintain all those skis and the different colors and... Just makes it tough when you're just starting out like that to have that kind of carrying costs in your inventory.
38:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, sculptures, games, they.
38:32 Guy Raz? Yeah, I'm looking at sculptures, yeah.
38:34 Speaker 02 All kinds of things.
38:35 Guy Raz? Yeah, and over time, they can, they can move that inventory, but it may, it may make sense to focus on the, the serve ware, the dinner ware, the drink ware, right? And then, you know, because you got a stationery and the food and gifts, but really nice stuff. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
39:20 Guy Raz? Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guests today are Jack Black Skincare co-founders Kern and Jeff Dandurand. Jeff Kern, let's take another call.
39:31 Speaker 01 Yep, let's do it.
39:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, let's go.
39:33 Guy Raz? All right, let's bring in our final caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Jeff and Kern Dandurand, founders of Jack Black Skincare. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
39:45 Speaker 07 Yeah, hi, everyone. I'm really excited to be here. My name is Brent, and I'm calling from the beautiful mountain town of Nelson, British Columbia, Canada, and I'm the founder of GoSo Cookware. So GoSo Cookware is a line of premium quality camp cookware, so designed for people who both love to cook and love to camp.
40:03 Guy Raz? Got it, okay. And tell us a little bit about what makes this, because cookware for camping exists. So what, what's so special about GoSo?
40:11 Speaker 07 Totally. So cookware for camping definitely exists. You have, you know, heavy duty cast iron pans, which are great, but they're really bulky, heavy.
40:17 Guy Raz? And heavy, you don't want to, you don't want to backpack with that on?
40:20 Speaker 07 No, you don't.
40:21 Guy Raz? Within there, yeah.
40:22 Speaker 07 Yeah, so then the answer to that is, well, there's also really lightweight backpacking equipment, right? Backpacking cookware, which is great if you like to boil water. But if you want to do anything else, then there's like nothing really in between. And so I created a frying pan that is a carbon steel frying pan. So carbon steel has all of the great benefits of a cast iron frying pan where there's no toxic.
40:44 Guy Raz? Heats evenly.
40:45 Speaker 07 Totally heats evenly. There's no toxic coatings. My pan is made in America out of fourteen gauge American carbon steel. It's great cooking properties that you can season it. So it's almost nonstick. But then we created a custom made, completely removable handle. So it's a handle that can lock on to the pan. Or you can take it off. So if you pack up the pan and the handle, they all pack down to a very small footprint. So it packs as a, as like a bowls, basically? Yeah, exactly. It's two pans, an eight inch and a ten inch pan that's stacked together. And then the handle nestles in the side. So you have two frying pans in the, the footprint of like a ten inch circle. And you get two pans. Okay. How did you start? I'm assuming you're a camper.
41:28 Speaker 07 So tell me the idea behind this. When did this business start? I love to camp. I love to cook. I've been doing it for a long time with my family. And to this day, that's what me and my friends love to do is we get outside and eat good food together, essentially. I actually started a YouTube channel a couple of years ago, a COVID project around teaching people who ride motorcycles, then go camping off their motorcycles, how to cook better. The idea was that, you know, they're passing past their grocery store at some, like at some point in the day usually. So like, why not cook something a little bit better than rehydrated food? Right? You're out there, you're having this beautiful experience, eat a good meal, you know, like it's fully worth it. Um, so that was my motivation, but then my frustration came in that I didn't have, I, I bought like the best camp frying pan I could find. But it was aluminum, it was coated in Teflon, the handle wasn't that great.
42:12 Speaker 07 It got banged up, scratched. And when I tried to cook something at a higher temperature, the whole thing warped and burned. And I was like, man, this, this, it really wasn't meeting what I, what I, what I needed and wanted. So. Yeah, I started on the journey earnestly in around twenty, early twenty twenty-three, did lots of market research through that time. And then last year, early twenty-four, we started, I started working towards producing a Kickstarter campaign. And last summer, launched my business through Kickstarter.
42:38 Guy Raz? I was gonna ask, how did you finance this thing? So you did a Kickstarter, how much did you raise?
42:41 Speaker 07 Yeah, it's fun, man. We raised a total of 166,000 Canadian dollars.
42:48 Guy Raz? Nice.
42:48 Speaker 07 Yeah, and our project was funded within the first hour of opening. And yeah, we're just on the verge of shipping that. So a year later, I've gone from like a prototype idea to we're shipping our product.
43:02 Guy Raz? Yep. All right, so you got the Kickstarter done, you got the money in. Now you're shipping the product out, obviously with all those Kickstarter supporters.
43:08 Speaker 07 Yeah.
43:09 Guy Raz? But now the hard part begins because you've got to now we reach a much bigger audience and try to get more attention. So before we dive in a bit more, what's your question for us?
43:18 Speaker 07 Yeah, so my question is around building a culture around a product. So GOSO stands for Get Outside, Stay Outside. And ultimately, that's what I want people to do. It's kind of our motto. We want people to get into the outdoors and connect with each other. And I want to create a culture around our product where people aren't just using the cookware to sustain themselves in the outdoors, but rather they're using it to create meals that are a catalyst for connection, right? So the question I have is how do I best create a culture around cooking in the outdoors while connecting it to my product, the Everywhere Pan?
43:52 Guy Raz? Jeff Curran, a lot to consider here. I'm just looking to create community, which makes sense because there's a certain community of passionate people who camp and want to cook. So what do you think?
44:03 Speaker 01 Well, I would start with your website. I think you can create a lot of compelling content on your site. You could have a lot of tips about your favorite trails and your hikes you've done. Right now, it's pretty bare bones.
44:17 Speaker 07 Yeah.
44:17 Speaker 01 I think you really need to fill that out, just showing what the Michelin Stargazer's all about, a lot of, you could do user-generated content.
44:28 Speaker 07 I want to thank you. I appreciate you recognizing the Michelin Stargazer. And that's kind of like the name we have for our community of people. You know, someone who loves to cook and loves to camp, that's a Michelin Stargazer.
44:39 Speaker 01 There's a lot of potential there. And that's how you can build your community and show what this is all about and bring it to life. I see on your site that you can sign up to get the newsletter, but I would tease it a little bit on your site with some of that content and show what it's all about so you can sample it a little bit and show them what they're going to get. Are you thinking to also sell to retailers or are you going to be DTC?
45:08 Speaker 07 I'd like to be a combo of both. Our, our plan is this first year to be direct to consumer. And in the future, we'd like to open up wholesale accounts. So ideally, starting next year and focusing on small, independent outdoor retailers. So yeah, small shops. This is a higher quality, higher like premium level product. So it's really focused towards not the, you know, the weekend camper, but people that are really passionate about spending time in the outdoors and passionate about cooking.
45:35 Speaker 01 Well, and I think your target market is very defined and very easy to market to. You know, outdoor enthusiasts, campers, you know, long through hikers. So it's going to be easy to find them on social media and target them. And I like the idea of going for the smaller retailer. And in every community, you've got that mom and pop hiking shop that would be perfect for you. Dealing with the big box guys will be tough in the early days, but I think the smaller retailer will really support you and educate their customer about your product.
46:10 Speaker 07 Right, I appreciate that.
46:12 Guy Raz? Yeah, I also think that, I mean, it's early days for you. You've just really launched it. And, and as we speak, it's, it's not really hiking weather in British Columbia. It's snowy. But, but, but this is the kind of product, I mean, you're in the right place to do this, right? Because you are in an outdoors hiking part of, of North America. And, you know, recently I saw this documentary. It's, it's just an aside because it's not really directly connected, but it's a documentary about that guy, Brian Johnson, a very strange guy, right? He's, he's, he's trying to live forever. He's trying to become younger. You've probably seen these videos of him and he injects himself with all kinds of gene therapy and takes 150 vitamins and pills a day and blood transfusions.
46:54 Guy Raz? What he did was he was basically very lonely and he wanted, and he's also building a business. And he just started tweeting out, hey, I'm going for a run, you know, in this part of Los Angeles, leaving 9:00 AM. And the first time he did it, like five people met him. Second time he did it, like 10 people showed up. Now he's been doing it for a couple of years. He's getting 400 people to these things. There's a, there's a world where I can imagine you doing a version of that where you're like, hey, I'm going to this trailhead and I'm going to be grilling up sausages in the morning and pancakes. Come, come on down for free sausages and pancakes until samples run out and have boxes of GoSo cookware available. You might get five people. You might get two people the first time. But, but you know, there are probably enough popular hiking trails that
47:39 Guy Raz? after a certain period of time, you're going to start to build momentum in the, you know, among a certain type of person who talks about these kinds of things.
47:47 Speaker 07 Yeah. Yeah. My, my plan this winter was to go to some ski parking lots and like get to like the trailhead of some ski touring areas. You know, make a sweet breakfast wrap and that sort of thing. And I think it'd be great for the content wise, but also creating that like really organic sense of community as well.
48:02 Speaker 02 You know, once I, I would imagine, once I have one of these carbon steel pans, I really don't need another one in six months. So what other products can you offer?
48:12 Speaker 07 No, that's the downfall of my business model is that they really, they're really durable and they really last a long time.
48:19 Speaker 07 But the idea is to, to build out more quality cookware products. So right now we have two offerings, an eight inch pan and a 10 inch pan. And then we'd like to build out into a 12 inch pan, a specific griddle pan that works along with it, lids. And then also some accessories to go along with it, scrubbers. We have two other scratch pads and some seasoning paste that go along with it. But yeah, so really I want to try and like not spread out too much and cover, you know, anything to do with cooking and camping. In the future, I'd love to just like kind of expand so that you can have a full kitchen that packs down into a very compact, compact set and then all higher quality stuff.
48:56 Guy Raz? And Brent, are you, uh, do you have any cash left from the fundraiser, from the Kickstarter fundraiser to play around with?
49:01 Speaker 07 There's a little bit, but not a ton. But yeah, a lot of it went into product development.
49:05 Guy Raz? I'm sure it did. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it might be worthwhile. You know, again, user generated content, seeing how people are using it, recipes on the website, I think would help and that, that's a, it doesn't cost a lot.
49:21 Guy Raz? But you could try, you know, things like making T-shirts, let's say Michelin Stargazer, right?
49:27 Speaker 07 Yeah.
49:27 Guy Raz? Cause it's kind of a cool idea. Michelin, obviously the food, Stargazer and, and with your logo on it and, you know, sort of hand those out at, you know, at, especially if you're going to go to a trade show, but, but also to, To kind of connect and find people in your area, because I think you're in an area. Like, how far are you from Vancouver, by the way?
49:47 Speaker 07 I'm about eight hours east of Vancouver.
49:49 Guy Raz? Oh, okay, so you are deep in British Columbia.
49:51 Speaker 07 Yeah, it's a small little town, but we're loaded, like, we're a mecca of outdoor enthusiasts. Like, there's amazing skiing, amazing biking, like, it's a...
50:00 Guy Raz? So that's your community. I mean, that's really where you have to start. I mean, that's the, those are the force multipliers, because those are the people who know you. They know that you're local, they want to support you, and incentivize them to do that. I mean, if they, if they post, if they, maybe they get a shirt, something like that.
50:20 Speaker 01 And you might, you might think about hiring somebody to help you with social media.
50:25 Speaker 07 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I appreciate it. Any, like, any tips or any thoughts you think in regards to social media that you would, you'd have?
50:33 Guy Raz? Just flood the zones. You got a YouTube channel, you know what you're doing. Just keep at it, and I think recipes are really important. When you're offering somebody information or content that is useful to them, rather than just trying to sell the product, that's what sticks. You know, if you're like, oh, this guy is making a corned beef hash, oh, what's his pan? But you're focused on the corned beef hash, so I would, I would really lean into trying to do as much of that as you can. The brand is called Go So Cookware. Brent Frisker, thanks so much for calling.
51:05 Speaker 07 Yeah, thank you so much.
51:06 Speaker 01 Thanks, Brent.
51:07 Guy Raz? Good luck, Brent.
51:08 Speaker 07 Thank you.
51:08 Guy Raz? Great having you.
51:12 Guy Raz? I don't know about you guys, but when I, when I go on, like, long hikes and long trails, I look for a nice inn or hotel where I can sleep at night, or in a pitch tent.
51:24 Guy Raz? And a really good restaurant.
51:26 Speaker 01 Exactly.
51:27 Guy Raz? I'm not staying in a tent. No, and a glass of wine and a really nice rye by steak. Before I let you guys go, and thanks so much for coming on, tell me, if you were now, if you were going back 25 years, you know, to the beginning, because I know, I remember it was a struggle, you know, the story you guys told and how stressful it was, but of course, you managed to make it happen in a big way. If you were able to go back 25 years ago and, and give you guys advice or some words of encouragement back then, what do you think you might have said? Curran?
51:59 Speaker 01 Well, one thing, it's kind of tactical, but I would be more diligent in who I hired and do background checks because when you're in your early days and people don't really want to work for you because you're a startup, it's too risky, you don't have a lot of money, you're not getting the top talent, you're desperate and you take whoever you can find. And I learned the hard way, you need to do background checks on people. And even if it takes a while, because when you do hire the wrong people, it can cost you a lot, money and heartache and stress.
52:38 Speaker 01 The other thing I might change would be being more careful and doing more due diligence on retailers, distributors, like we got burned from distributors that basically just diverted our product and were total frauds. And just making sure the retailer's the right fit for your brand and that they're going to support your brand. So we made some mistakes in that area, and so just being more careful with that.
53:08 Speaker 02 That's sounding like my mistake for some reason.
53:11 Speaker 01 No, well, we were all in it together. You have to just say, I can figure this out, I've done it before, one foot in front of the other. So it's hard when you're in it, but you just have to have confidence in yourself that you'll figure it out, it's not the end of the world, there will be a solution.
53:31 Guy Raz? Yeah, you've got to kind of be your own coach. But you guys had each other, which also helped. Jeff, what do you think? I mean, similarly?
53:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's a couple of things. In the early days when we didn't have money, you know, I'd walk into our warehouse and I would just see, you know, tons of inventory, product everywhere.
53:53 Speaker 02 And I knew that's where our cash was tied up. Maybe being a little more careful about controlling new product development and, you know, our inventory in general. The second thing as a salesperson, I really regret this more than anything is I didn't know the product formulations as well as I should have. I knew I was, you know, that you get great results and the products worked well. But as a salesperson, I was focused on opening up new accounts, not the benefits of the products themselves. And there are significant benefits to the formulations that Kern and Emily developed. And I just didn't, I didn't dive into that science like I wish I would have today. I think I would have spent more time there.
54:36 Guy Raz? Yeah, that's good advice. Jeff and Kern Dandurand, thank you so much for coming back onto the show. So great having you.
54:42 Speaker 01 Thank you.
54:43 Speaker 02 Good seeing you again.
54:43 Speaker 01 It's an honor to be on.
54:45 Guy Raz? That's Jack Black Skincare co-founders Jeff and Kern Dandurand. And by the way, if you haven't heard their original How I Built This episode, you've got to go and check it out. A lot of great lessons in that episode. And you can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
55:02 Speaker 01 We had this, oh, seven foot tall, very beautiful wood floor standing fixture, laser cut logo. We spent a ton of money on it. And our idea was this is the display you're going to use in your golf shop.
55:16 Guy Raz? Okay.
55:17 Speaker 01 But people would look at that display and just like go on, what are you thinking? We don't need, we can't put that in our shop. We would never sell that much product. They just weren't interested. And Jeff's like, this isn't working. We got to pull the plug and we got to go get real jobs.
55:39 Guy Raz? Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Iman Maani, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.
56:23 Guy Raz? It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Elaine Coats, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Sam Paulson, J.C. Howard, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
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