Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Advice Line with Jane Wurwand of Dermalogica (2024) About this episode Jane Wurwand, co-founder of the global skincare brand Dermalogica, joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early stage founders. Plus, Jane shares her philosophy on the importance of customer education for building a trusted brand.
First we meet Camille in Virginia, who’s wondering how to scale her vegan baby food company without compromising on quality. Then Molly in Maine, who’s trying to build a community of new parents for her baby-friendly workout classes. And Sarah in Connecticut, who’s considering whether to expand beyond her core performance underwear product.
Thank you to the founders of Chunky Vegan, Baby Booty and Paradis Sport for being part of the show.
If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.
And be sure to listen to Dermalogica’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episodes/2b212701-7ac6-4313-b948-080832f2cbf0 as told by Jane on the show in 2016.
This episode was produced by Katherine Sypher. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 10,800 words · 8 speakers
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5:14 Speaker 00 Hey, everyone, it's Guy here. So this week on the How I Built This advice line, we're bringing you an episode from the archives. And in this episode, I take calls with Jane Werwin. She's the co-founder of the global skincare brand, Dermalogica. And Jane gives amazing advice to three early-stage entrepreneurs and talks about the importance of customer education for building a trusted brand. This episode first aired in December of 2024. It's a great one. I hope you enjoy it.
5:42 Speaker 00 Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected] . And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.
6:26 Speaker 00 It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Jane Worwin. She's the co-founder of the pioneering skincare brand, Dermalogica. Jane, welcome back to How I Built This.
6:48 Speaker 01 Thank you so much, Guy. It's such a pleasure to be back here. I was one of your first, and I'm thrilled to be on this.
6:54 Speaker 00 Way back in 2016. And for those of you who haven't heard that story, we will include a link in the episode description. It's an amazing story. Essentially, Jane grew up in Scotland, tragically lost her father at a very young age. And after that happened, I think about this all the time, Jane, which your mom told you. I give this advice to people. She said to all of her daughters, "I want you to develop a skill so you never have to depend on a man. You can always be independent." Basically, is what she said. And for you, you became a beautician, which eventually brought you to California in the early 80s.
7:27 Speaker 01 I love that you say beautician. That's such an old word. I'm a skin therapist, but I get it. I get it.
7:32 Speaker 00 I think that's what you trained as, right, initially?
7:34 Speaker 01 Yes, my original diploma. You've got a great memory, Guy. You've probably been swatting up.
7:39 Speaker 00 And yeah, I'm still working. I'm just, you know, as I get older, it's going. But I'm still working. So you eventually come to California. This is the early 80s. And you opened, you and your husband Raymond, you leased a space, a small space, opened a skincare, a place to teach skincare classes and to do skincare.
7:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:55 Speaker 00 And at the time, if I remember, like, people, skincare regimens were basically soap and water. Like, people didn't really know what to do.
8:02 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Yeah, 80s. It was big hair, big makeup, no skincare.
8:06 Speaker 00 And your business was an education business. It wasn't even a skincare brand business. But of course, over time, you started to, you know, people started to ask you what, you know, what kind of products they should use. And you realized that really, there wasn't anything available. So you started to make them. You convinced a manufacturer to help you produce your products of scale. You called it Dermalogica.
8:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:25 Speaker 00 And the rest is history. I mean, fast forward 2015. You and Raymond sold a majority stake of the business, Unilever. And Dermalogica is a massive skincare brand. Everybody listening knows Dermalogica. It's an incredible story.
8:38 Speaker 01 Thank you.
8:39 Speaker 00 Jane, before we bring on our callers, I want to ask you a couple of questions. And the first one was about the approach you took, right? Because you and Raymond were, you were really scrappy. You had to be, right? When you were getting your first products to market, you didn't have any money.
8:52 Speaker 01 Nope.
8:53 Speaker 00 You convinced a manufacturer to give you a chance with almost no money upfront. And then you launched with like 27 products.
9:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I know.
9:01 Speaker 00 All at once, right?
9:03 Speaker 01 I know. If someone asked me if they could do that, I would say no. Yes, 27.
9:07 Speaker 00 I mean, that's my question. Would you take that same approach today? Like, what are your thoughts about focusing on like one product, doing that, crushing that really well for a while versus just going all out with like 20 products from the get go?
9:20 Speaker 01 Well, we really felt strongly we had to introduce that many products because skincare, as we saw it, was a regimen. And so we had to have more than one or two products. So that was deliberate. And it also set us apart because you couldn't just grab one product and it would do everything. There was no miracle product. We were basing it on education. We had $14,000 of self-funding. And we've never took outside funding all the way through to the acquisition. We'd never had, we had no debt.
9:50 Speaker 00 That's amazing.
9:51 Speaker 01 Yeah. And so to do that, we needed a selection of product. But focus is the number one word I would use. Focus, focus, focus. We didn't introduce makeup. We didn't introduce hair products. We didn't introduce nail products. Everyone told us diversify, spread your look. No, no, no. Skincare, skincare, skincare. And I think niching is really important when you're a startup. Directing your energy and time and attention at one target market. You can expand once you secure that. But start off in something that you feel strongly you've got a unique position in.
10:30 Speaker 00 Jane, when you started Dermalogica, totally different landscape. Now, you know, there are giant stores that are dedicated to, obviously, beauty. And there were some, but not quite like today, the Sephora's and the, you know, companies like that. I mean, on the one hand, it's a lot easier. The barrier to entry is lower. There are lots of co-manufacturers. You don't need as much money to start. But on the other hand, it is, it is just a massive market. To break into it is so challenging. If you were to start Dermalogica today, right?
11:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:04 Speaker 00 What do you think you would have to do differently to, to gain traction?
11:08 Speaker 01 You know, it's really interesting. I would do exactly the same as we did when we started. I would niche it with education. It's a different environment, but people still want to hear expert advice. And, you know, even, even the most entertaining 10-year-old on TikTok talking about aging skincare is not, that's entertainment. It's not that they might not have some good points, but the different thing is about, and it is very different because the barrier to entry is easier now. You can set up your own channel in your kitchen if you wanted to, and plenty of people do.
11:46 Speaker 01 However, that is not as solid a relationship as we had to build, which was literally word of mouth. You had to meet that person. You had to touch that person. You had to introduce your product to them. There was no internet. There was no cellphone.
12:02 Speaker 00 A better, simpler time, Jane.
12:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, simpler time. And when you built it, that relationship was real. That comes first before the sale. I always say tell, don't sell. You're not ready to sell until I am ready to buy. And the way I would be ready to buy as a consumer is I want to want your product. I want to understand what it does. And then you've got to be able to build an emotion in me that says, oh, my gosh, I'm going to buy that. Especially if you're in the prestige market because it's not going to be an inexpensive purchase. And it has to deliver on what you just promised. And we did that through education.
12:41 Speaker 00 I mean, essentially what you're saying, which is something I say often, so people hearing this will be tired of it, is the fundamentals remain the same.
12:50 Speaker 01 Yep. Yeah, the plumbing's different, but it's exactly the same stuff coming through it.
12:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
12:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:56 Speaker 00 Yeah. All right. We're gonna have lots to talk about, of course, Jane. Let's bring on our first caller and find out what is going on. Hello, caller. Welcome to the Advice Line here on How I Built This. You're on with me and Jane Wurwand. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a tiny bit about your business.
13:12 Speaker 02 Hi, Guy and Jane. I'm Camille Hardy, originally from Pasadena, California. I'm now based in Leesburg, Virginia, where I founded Chunky Vegan. And at Chunky Vegan, we're on a mission to redefine baby food with farm-to-table, nutrient-rich meals crafted for early-stage eaters.
13:30 Speaker 00 Awesome. Camille, thank you for calling in. I'm excited to talk to you. So tell me a little bit more about Chunky Vegan. It's baby food that you sell, how and where?
13:40 Speaker 02 Currently, we're selling at farmers' markets, pop-up shops, daycares, and places like that. And it's direct to consumer currently.
13:49 Speaker 00 And it's in a, like, a glass jar?
13:52 Speaker 02 Yes.
13:52 Speaker 00 And it's refrigerated?
13:54 Speaker 02 Yes. So all of our food is farm-fresh, so it's all plant-based. We don't have any preservatives. So it should be refrigerated and eaten within four days. And if not, you can freeze it for up to six months.
14:06 Speaker 00 Okay, Camille, I'm assuming, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm gonna assume that this business started because you became a parent.
14:13 Speaker 02 It absolutely did start because I became a parent. And it also started because I'm, when I moved from Pasadena to Virginia, the options in terms of healthy or clean eating weren't as available as they were.
14:27 Speaker 00 In California, yeah.
14:29 Speaker 02 Yeah. And so I had to be really creative and very selective. And I just really wasn't satisfied with what was available to feed my son. So I started to make the food for him myself, initially sourcing it from the grocery stores. But then, as I kind of learned, like, well, where are they sourcing this from? And how's the food being treated? I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole, and I gradually kind of refined how I was sourcing certain foods for my son. And that's how, that's how it initially started.
14:58 Speaker 00 Awesome. And what's your question for us today?
15:01 Speaker 02 So the business has been, we established the business last year, actually, July of 2023, but we launched last month. And what I am finding, I'm just in a bit of a, kind of a... A weird space. A lot of the other baby food brands, they say they're organic and you know, they're clean packaged, but then they throw it in a pouch or plastic. So from end to end, what we offer, we're, we're just very intentional about the whole process of how we deliver our product, from the packaging, the glass, to the, the ingredients we source, to the way that we combine those ingredients to make the nutrient density. And so how can
15:41 Speaker 02 we Chunky Vegan effectively scale up while maintaining the quality and the sustainability standards that set us apart? Because a lot of advice we have been given was to, you know, cut back on our, either our packaging or scale back on these ingredients, but that degrades the quality of our product.
15:59 Speaker 00 All right. Lots to answer and lots to talk about. Jane, I want to bring you in. First of all, do you have any questions for Camille before we get to her question?
16:07 Speaker 01 I just pulled up your website. First of all, I have to just tell you, where were you when I had a baby 30 years ago? I love everything about this. It's, I think you're in exactly the sweet spot. I also have to tell you, your website looks great.
16:22 Speaker 02 Thank you.
16:24 Speaker 01 Really good. I like the brand identity and, but you've got low numbers on Instagram. I see 267 on your Instagram.
16:32 Speaker 02 Yes.
16:32 Speaker 01 Now, you've just started, so I understand that. Do you feel comfortable on, on, you know, the social platforms? And if you do, which ones are you on right now?
16:42 Speaker 02 I mean, I feel comfortable. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, and LinkedIn.
16:47 Speaker 01 Okay.
16:47 Speaker 02 But we're just, the traction is, it's not really picking up the way that I thought that it would.
16:52 Speaker 01 I would put a pin in that because it should work for you and it may have to just be very targeted with your message. It's got to be tight and targeted. That's another conversation, but don't lighten up on that. Go, go heavy on that. It's, you've got a great message.
17:07 Speaker 02 Okay.
17:08 Speaker 01 I love your brand identity. I don't know if you're familiar with you, the, the company Farmer's Dog?
17:14 Speaker 02 Yes.
17:14 Speaker 01 Okay. Oh, I know it's for babies, but this just reminded me of the branding for Farmer's Dog. And those, anyone who's listening who doesn't know Farmer's Dog, it's like a gourmet dog food customized for your dog. I have a rescued Chihuahua terrier mix who honestly would eat anything. He'd chew a chair if that was all that was on the, on for him. But he gets Farmer's Dog. And the reason it, we did it was it's so much better. He is so much happier. He's like a young puppy and he's thirteen years old. Okay, so I really look at that website because there's a brand identity there that comes through and people like me respond to it. And that's what you need for your consumer.
17:57 Speaker 01 You're charging twelve on the website, it says twelve dollars for six ounces of baby food? Yes. Okay, so you're a high end product and you should be. We're a premium brand. Yeah, and you're a premium brand, you should be. So you've got to niche it that way. A couple, a couple of things, education, education, education. Make sure there's a plenty of it on your, on your site and in your materials. Why are in season veggies important? What do people say about can babies be vegan? You know, I mean, people will say, can, I don't know, can my baby be of it? Yes. Um, one thing I would say, I love what you said earlier, you, you've niched your initial
18:38 Speaker 01 distribution to farmer's markets, um, preschools, perhaps you said. Uh, I would look at your niche, local grocery stores. Yes. Especially anything, health food stores, anything which has small, the small high end. You, you're familiar from California with Arrow One? Yes, I am, I love that store. I love that store too. Arrow One, for anyone listening who doesn't know it, is a California based grocery market, but it's very high end. But they talk about ethically sourced foods. This is about your body and the planet. And they have a slogan as you walk in the store and it says, if we sell it, it's good for you.
19:20 Speaker 01 I feel like that is an outlet that you could target, maybe not yet, but that should be in your sights. I would not go to a big supermarket, don't go anywhere near a Kroger or even a Whole Foods.
19:34 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:34 Speaker 01 Yet, not yet, not now, because they could eat you alive. With the terms they would want, the amount of product you'd have to supply and you would be carrying the cost of that. Until they paid and those payments could be four months later. These are, they're fantastic food retailers, but it's not where you need to be right now. So niche it small, niche it tight and make sure that Junkie Vegan is found where you can target high end customers. Because your average buyer is not going to be the person that wants the, the necessarily just, you know, the, the quick easy fix. They could have found that already on the shelves.
20:15 Speaker 00 I, I think, I think, well, first of all, I think Jane, your advice about, about focusing locally is critical right now. You, Camille, you've just launched and so you are in the test and learn phase.
20:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:27 Speaker 00 And this is a hard phase because you're not going to see velocity and traction as quickly as you like. It's very rare for a new business to do that, especially in your category, right? Because baby food is challenging, right? People, they've got to trust that your food is safe and healthy for their child, right? What I think you, you should consider is thinking of this time as the test and learn time, which is to keep a diary. Write everything down, review and measure, right? Because over time, you are, you're, you're going to start to see what works and what doesn't work. I mean, the challenge that you face is you have a premium product. It is not shelf stable.
21:11 Speaker 00 You've got to refrigerate it and its shelf life is limited, so it's got to be sold really quickly. So over time, could you serve it in the frozen section? Could it be, I think you could preserve most of the nutrients if you freeze it.
21:25 Speaker 01 I like that better. It looks better. I think that's a great advantage, actually.
21:30 Speaker 00 Is there a world where you would be, you would consider maybe high pressure processing to preserve the nutrients and putting it in, you know, also in the refrigerated section, but maybe it would extend the shelf life longer? Maybe you use other packaging that's not so heavy. I love glass. I'm a big fan of glass and I, glass is heavy, so grocers don't always like it, but nobody recycles plastic. Those pouches are challenging. But I think that you're going to learn over time what works. And now is the time to really lean into the newspaper in Leesburg, the alternative weeklies, the farmers markets, parent groups, and start to develop a following there because
22:15 Speaker 00 you're just outside of one of the most important media and cultural centers of the United States, the Washington DC metropolitan area. There's an opportunity to kind of get a foothold in that market. But I think that right now, as you're starting, you really want to just measure what people say. You want to write things down. You want to ask people for their feedback and you want to start to see how you might make it even more accessible to people over time.
22:45 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, and build your community.
22:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
22:49 Speaker 02 We've done that. We have, we literally started surveys, doing, conducting surveys and case studies.
22:55 Speaker 00 Great, yes.
22:56 Speaker 02 Last April. So that's, that's been ongoing and we've been getting a lot of feedback. And that's what allowed us to refine our, the meal offerings to like these six staple things that we launched with. Now that we've launched and we're opening up to a wider audience, we're still getting more, more feedback.
23:14 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:15 Speaker 02 More inputs that we can further refine and just see how we can go from there.
23:20 Speaker 00 What I like about what you're doing is that it is a, you're focusing on nutrient density, something that people are really interested in. And Jane, I think this goes to, right back to what we talked about earlier, which is the fundamentals. Like, in this, in this case, a lot of your energy has to be, aims towards really doubling down, educating parents. Like, are they gonna get everything they want from, you know, the, the big brands that are available on the shelves? It might be fine enough for them. But, but what you're saying is, look, this is different.
23:54 Speaker 01 I think it's critical because you don't want to be confused with another baby food. This is not actually a baby food. This is a healthy start to your child's life. So be prepared that not everyone is gonna want to go with you. That's fine. You don't need them. You need a very small percentage to go with you. So target them hard. Speak to their, to their mind, to their heart. They'll, they'll be there because this is the right thing. It is the right thing to be available. And I feel like you have a great opportunity. But you're in the
24:27 Speaker 00 Sample.
24:28 Speaker 01 You're in the first sample, sample, sample.
24:30 Speaker 00 Sample, sample, sample.
24:31 Speaker 02 That, and that, that's been the closer. That's been what gets people in and they buy, is offering the tasting. So everywhere we go, we have samples. But we're, we're trying to create, it's not just a baby food brand. We want a, a community. We want awareness. We want education. So we want to teach parents the repercussions of the convenience of grabbing that pouch and having something that they can sit in a bag for hours, unrefrigerated. And what that, you know, what that costs your child. We want to teach, like, the, the real meaning of how true food should be, be treated. True food is not shelf stable. We don't use typical ingredients. We don't use oatmeal or any rice based, anything in our, in our foods. And that's all very important and people don't know those things.
25:16 Speaker 01 So, package everything you said into a little program, little workshop, and pitch it to pediatricians in your area, pitch it to mommy and baby groups, pitch it to neonatal classes, all of those kind of things that we all did. Because it's important that you're not in there to sell your brand. You're in there to tell about the education behind your brand. And then, they won't have to be sold your brand. They'll want to buy it because they'll understand why it's so important.
25:44 Speaker 00 Absolutely. Camille Hardy, the brand is called Chunky Vegan in Leesburg, Virginia. Thank you so much. Good luck.
25:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, good luck.
25:51 Speaker 02 Guy, Jane, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have this opportunity to speak with both of you.
25:56 Speaker 01 Thank you.
25:58 Speaker 00 Do you know what you could do is you could have like a, like a bar, right? Like, but instead of like tequila shots for babies, you just bring them up to the bar and you give them like shots of Chunky Vegan.
26:09 Speaker 01 I love it. A little pop up in one of the stores at the farmer's market and, you know, bring your baby over and feed them.
26:15 Speaker 00 And then you could have tequila shots for the parents.
26:18 Speaker 01 Absolutely, because that's what you need.
26:19 Speaker 00 And then the baby's eating the Chunky Vegan, the mom's got a little tequila and soda water.
26:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's working for me.
26:28 Speaker 00 We are next business.
26:30 Speaker 00 We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
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30:20 Speaker 00 Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Dermalogica founder Jane Wurwand. And Jane, what do you say? Let's take another call?
30:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, let's take it.
30:31 Speaker 00 Hello, welcome to the advice line. You are on with Jane Wurwand. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
30:38 Speaker 03 Hey Jane, hey Guy. My name is Molly Brubaker. I'm the founder of Baby Booty and we are based in Portland, Maine. Baby Booty is boutique fitness for parents where you bring your baby or toddler along, but the focus is on you. So we offer energetic fitness classes based on the everyday movements of new parenthood. So you can focus on getting stronger physically, emotionally, and mentally. Our studios are located in Portland, Maine, and Boston, Massachusetts, with a hope to franchise at some point.
31:10 Speaker 00 Awesome. Well, thank you for calling in Molly. So Baby Booty, like boot, like booty is like boot camp kind of thing?
31:17 Speaker 03 Yeah, like work your booty.
31:19 Speaker 00 Oh, work your booty. I got you.
31:21 Speaker 03 It gets stronger. Yeah.
31:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, I got you. Yeah. And, and you can, in the classes, like what you, you bring your baby to the class and the baby's just kind of like wander around and do their thing? Or are they like deposited in another room where they're cared for?
31:38 Speaker 03 Okay, so we kind of seek to eliminate the need for childcare. So your baby's there. We have baby-proofed studios. The babies are socializing, they're playing, they're eating snacks, they're playing with the toys, or they're strapped to your body.
31:53 Speaker 00 Wow. You've got like goldfish crumbs on the ground and apple juice spilled and you got like the workout class going on all around it?
32:00 Speaker 03 You know it. It's a bit chaotic, but it really works. It's amazing actually to see the chaos, but the focus is there for the parents. So we welcome baby wearing. So if you have an infant, you can strap them on so you don't have to think about them. We have parents with toddlers four and under who are, you know, cruising around on bikes, weaving in and out of our feet. But really, it's a win-win because you don't You don't need childcare, you can focus on yourself for that hour and then your baby also gets to socialize.
32:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm on your website now and I see you li- literally like half of these moms have their baby Bjorn's on.
32:38 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:39 Speaker 00 And the babe like, like from, from The Hangover and you've got them exercising with the baby in the baby Bjorn.
32:46 Speaker 01 Is, is each of them with their own baby or can you kind of swap your babies? I'm teasing, I'm teasing.
32:52 Speaker 03 I mean, our instructors are known to carry other people's babies around if they need help, but literally like I look around, I look around my classes and I'm like, why are more people not seeing how badass all these parents are?
33:04 Speaker 00 Yeah.
33:04 Speaker 03 They're here, they're getting physically stronger after having a baby or becoming a new parent. And one thing that's really special about, about Baby Booty is that every single class is half workout, half social circle.
33:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
33:17 Speaker 03 So I'm trying to find that sweet spot between you can socialize, you can connect with other parents and your babies are there, but they're not the focus. I think there's, in our, in our culture, there's really like kind of a lack of support for new parents, right? And that's symbolic in the-
33:34 Speaker 00 I've been, yes, especially moms. And I'm a dad and I can say that as having, having been there 15 years ago. What, what's your question that you brought for us today?
33:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, so how can I shift the mindset and behavior of my current and potential customers to also prioritize self-care by coming to Baby Booty and not feel guilt in a culture where we feel like our kids always come first?
33:58 Speaker 00 Got it. Okay, we'll get to that question in a sec. Jane, let's bring you in. Questions, questions, questions for Molly.
34:07 Speaker 01 I love what you're doing. I, so let me backtrack because I'm quite excited about all of this. When we started Dermalogica, we quickly realized, we started with education and classes. And what we quickly realized was students who were already qualified and working in salons were coming back to the same class more than once, which seemed odd because they'd already learned, you know, about acne or whatever it was. What we realized was they weren't just coming for the education, they were coming for the community. And I think that's exactly what you've got. I think you've got a workout studio. But what is, I'm willing to bet, one of the strongest pulls for people to come there is because, yes, they can bring their baby, so that solves the childcare issue.
34:52 Speaker 01 Secondly, they're with a like-minded group. It's connection, it's community, it's sisterhood. It is knowing that you're not on your own, knowing that you're not the only one that doesn't get it right first time. That is critically important because what everyone is craving right now is community and connection. So I would just really emphasize to you, don't underestimate this community aspect. Make every excuse you can to have them come into the studio. Whether it's a workshop, whether it's a baby class, whether it's somebody giving a presentation on something. Get it on social media. I looked at your Instagram just quickly and you've only got
35:36 Speaker 01 a three thou- a little over three thousand people. You can get more than that.
35:40 Speaker 00 It's pretty good, actually.
35:42 Speaker 01 It's not bad, but your moms can keep, your moms can kind of flesh that out themselves. You know, have them post, do the competitions when they post. Anything you can think about, any idea that builds community, build it in your business.
35:57 Speaker 03 Yeah, for sure.
35:58 Speaker 01 So you have a membership? There's a membership aspect to this? And what does that look like?
36:04 Speaker 03 Yeah, so you can join as an unlimited member. You get access to on-demand classes, live-streamed classes, unlimited classes in the studio.
36:12 Speaker 01 And sort of what's ballpark pricing on your membership?
36:15 Speaker 03 It's roughly like eighty-nine dollars a month. It's very affordable.
36:19 Speaker 01 Okay, great. And I can take out a month to month or can I take out six months or a year? How does it work?
36:25 Speaker 03 Yep, you can do month to month, or if you do six months upfront, you get a little bit of a discount.
36:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, Molly, a couple of questions for you. First of all, you mentioned that you'd like to be, you know, one day, you've got two locations and you'd like to franchise this. How is, give me a sense of how the business is doing now. Are you? Are you guys profitable yet? I mean, it's tough. It's a new business, but where are you right now with the business?
36:50 Speaker 03 Yeah. No, we are not profitable. I have no outside funding, so I've bootstrapped this entirely. I've taken some really big risks, some scary risks in terms of opening my second studio in Boston. Obviously, it's a lot more expensive than Maine, and I've had to make some really tough decisions. I haven't paid myself ever. I had to just let go of a manager, a beloved manager, just because I couldn't pay her. So I have a big vision and I am not going to give up. But yeah, it's definitely hard. And just scraping by each month, I'm just treading water, like keeping my head up, keeping a positive attitude. Yeah.
37:33 Speaker 00 I love that, and thank you for saying that. First of all, here's the thing. I mean, what Jane tapped into, I mean, social media, we tend to overemphasize the importance. I think we overemphasize the importance of it, and I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I do recognize that there are big parts of it that are critical. And in this case, what you're trying to do is to remind new parents, and I think probably most of your clients are women, but I do see some men in the classes as well, so new parents, that they've got to give themselves, like, they have to take care of themselves too, because it's part of being a good parent and taking care of your child, especially when they're little, is taking care of yourself.
38:17 Speaker 00 And what your value proposition here is, we're going to make it easy for you. Just come, just show up. And I think that if there's a way to kind of send that message through videos, I mean, you probably are already doing some of that, but I would really lean into that, that idea of like... Bring you and your baby and just come and we will take care of everything else.
38:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're here. Your community is here and we're waiting for you.
38:42 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:43 Speaker 01 I have a quick question. Why did you open the second? What prompted you to open the second location in in Boston when when you hadn't? You said you've never drawn a salary. I totally understand all of that. That's that's very normal. But but why did you then expand to a second location?
38:59 Speaker 03 So when I started the business in 2021 here in Portland, Maine, I also started doing pop up classes in Boston in that area because that's actually where I'm from. And
39:09 Speaker 01 Okay.
39:10 Speaker 03 I was just so excited. I just felt there was a need as I was a brand new mom myself. And I just thought there's so many parents who could who could utilize this. And it was successful in the pop ups that I then said, well, we should just have our own studio space because the idea is to really have that home base for new parents to have a place to go and a sense of purpose.
39:31 Speaker 01 So for all the right reasons, but did you sign a lease on the premises?
39:35 Speaker 03 I did. Yeah.
39:36 Speaker 01 How long is your lease?
39:38 Speaker 03 It's five years.
39:39 Speaker 01 Okay. So that's a stretch because you were how many? At that time when you opened in Boston, how many? And does it just you teaching? Or did you have other people teaching with you?
39:52 Speaker 03 So in in total, my total team between the two studios, I have 17 instructors. And when I opened, I had, yeah, I had a team, I think of six and a and a manager. So I do go down. I do go down there as often as I can. And, you know, I've learned, actually, I have to run that studio a little bit differently than I do in Maine, just because the clientele is different. And it's it's so nuanced because
40:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:20 Speaker 03 A market like Boston is a big city. We have a lot of more working moms, you know, career moms, they're going back to work. So I'm trying to navigate all of those like nuances of Within that demographic and figure out the right messaging.
40:34 Speaker 01 And do you have a manager in Boston?
40:36 Speaker 03 I do, yep.
40:37 Speaker 01 You do, okay. So they have to be your proxy. You've signed a five-year lease, so you're in. However, I would say that that's a big chunk to bite off and try and carry the cost of that, the overhead of that, and just the attention and energy of having to do that. Portland is a great location. Boston is a great location. I would think one would be enough to manage until you feel really strongly, you've got it worked out, and then expand to the second. But that's, you know, that's looking in the rearview mirror because you're already in there. But that's the balancing act, and you're picking up a lot of overhead there, I would imagine.
41:14 Speaker 03 I'm just laughing because a lot of people told me I was crazy. I opened the second location when I had a six-month-old baby and a toddler.
41:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:23 Speaker 03 And, you know.
41:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, you were crazy, but that's okay.
41:25 Speaker 00 We've had much crazier stories on the show. I think one of the... Look, I think you have an opportunity here, and clearly you're aware of it. I mean, you've got an opportunity here to really build and deepen the community. And I think one of the... In addition to this idea of making it easy, one of the things I think you can do, it's hard, and you're a mom, you're a parent, you've got to raise kids too, but if baby booty, at least in the Boston location, can be even more of a 360 location, you know, could you have a cooler that sells premium baby food? Could you have maybe apparel? Maybe you are selling apparel already.
42:07 Speaker 00 Are you selling baby products? Are you inviting pediatricians? I mean, there's tons. I mean, Boston is one of the medical centers of the United States. And so I would imagine there are tons and tons of neonatal specialists and maternity care specialists who would be delighted to come and talk, do a talk for free. Obviously, moms are busy. They don't have tons and tons of time. But all of those things generate buzz and interest. And so to me, you know, it's hard. It's not going to be easy, Molly. You've heard the show. You know how much of a sacrifice it is. But given that you've got the space and you've got the, you know, you've got the critical mass there.
42:50 Speaker 00 I think you can really think of it more as much more than than only a fitness space.
42:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:57 Speaker 03 Awesome. Yeah.
42:58 Speaker 01 And think of it as your community clubhouse.
43:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
43:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:02 Speaker 03 That's cute. Yeah. I um, I love, I love all that. I love when you said, um, have it be more of a 360. And you know, we're definitely trying. We've brought in CPR workshops.
43:12 Speaker 00 Good.
43:13 Speaker 03 Can I, you name it, different Moms Night Out and things like that. And in Boston, I, I am facing, you know, the clientele just feeling like that competition of they have so many other choices of things to do with their kids. They're so busy. They're working. The kids in daycare, they're going to swim class and gymnastics. And so, you know, how do I shift them to get into my, you know, my pump station, my, my mom's club, you know? It's that mentality um, that has been really challenging.
43:42 Speaker 01 And that may teach you something also interesting. You may find that your, your business model works better in a smaller community and not a city. And there's plenty of businesses that know, you know, they, they know that target and that's what they focus on. And, and conversely, if you feel like you can compete against the noise of the city and all the other options that there are to go there, then, you know, go for it.
44:05 Speaker 00 And partnerships, partnerships, partnerships, right? And why am I saying it three times? I don't know. People just say things three times in a row. But if you can, if you can start to even reach out on all LinkedIn, emails, reach out to baby, baby brands, you know, stroller companies, other brands that may want to come and talk to your clients about what they offer. Those brands will often promote you. They'll, they'll often say, we're going to be at Baby Booty, you know, and, and, and so little things like that actually can have a cumulative effect over time. It just, I, I think people are surprised at how often uh, they, they'll receive a response when you just reach out.
44:47 Speaker 01 Hundred percent.
44:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, for sure.
44:49 Speaker 00 All right. The company's called Baby Booty. Molly Brubaker, congrats. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. We'll be, we'll be keeping tabs on you.
44:55 Speaker 03 Hey, thank you, Jane. Thank you, Guy. What an honor to talk to you. I love it. Thank you, guys, so much. And it's not just for moms. So, you know, Jane, Guy, if you guys want to come and, and work out with us and dance, we'd love that.
45:06 Speaker 00 I'll put my 15-year-old in the, in the Baby Bjorn. She's a little, he's a little heavy.
45:11 Speaker 03 Oh, I love it. You can just strap him on your back.
45:13 Speaker 01 My 25-year-old can carry me in.
45:18 Speaker 00 All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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47:11 Speaker 00 Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Jane Werwind. Let's bring in our next and final caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Jane Werwind. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
47:25 Speaker 07 Hi Jane, hi Guy. I'm Sarah Wyman and I'm calling in from Lakeville, Connecticut. I'm the founder of Paradisport. It's spelled like paradise with no E at the end. We make performance underwear for athletes, designed by women for women, with our guaranteed stay in place promise. All of our products are certified BPA and PFAS free, made as sustainably as possible and built to last.
47:54 Speaker 00 Awesome. Well, thank you for calling in. Paradisport, I love it. And underwear, how did you start this brand? Tell me about it.
48:03 Speaker 07 This is really something that I found I needed. I had worn the same brand of active underwear for about 10 years. I played sports in college. I played Division One sports and I'm now still a very active person.
48:20 Speaker 00 Wow, what'd you play, by the way?
48:21 Speaker 07 I played field hockey, ice hockey and lacrosse.
48:23 Speaker 00 Wow. So you're no joke, Division One athlete.
48:26 Speaker 07 Well, I'm now in my late 40s. I am still active at skiing and running and hiking with my family. And the brand of active underwear I'd worn for years changed their cut and fabric and didn't work for me anymore. I ordered all these other brands. None of them were, some of them were really pretty bad. I'm trained as an architect and landscape architect and I've been running my own design business for 18 years now. And I sort of have that design mentality. And I thought, this is crazy that there aren't better options for active women. I just want something that I can go on a hike in and not have to worry
49:08 Speaker 07 about adjusting my underwear the whole time. And then I started talking to friends and I started realizing that there are a lot of other women out there who are looking for better products in this category. Having that design mentality, I started calling around to factories and ended up finding, after a lot of calling in factories in Asia and in the US, found an awesome designer in Vermont who
49:34 Speaker 07 Had experience designing for other underwear brands and for NASA and for
49:40 Speaker 00 Wow.
49:41 Speaker 07 The US military, actually. And she came up with our first prototype, which we then tested with Division One athletes. And we prototyped for a good year and a half. We had eight rounds of prototypes. So we've been very laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well.
50:01 Speaker 00 So you started this because you wanted to solve a problem that you had. You found a designer and now you've got, from what I gather, two different like sort of designs, right?
50:11 Speaker 07 Well, so we have two different lines for which we have a bikini and a thong. One is seamless. They're knit on circular machines.
50:20 Speaker 00 Okay.
50:21 Speaker 07 And they don't have any side seams. We have a natural fiber line that's made with fabric that comes from sustainably harvested beech tree pulp. And we're adding a couple of new styles. We're right now in development with a boy short and a hipster.
50:40 Speaker 00 And Sarah, tell me a little bit about your entirely self-funded.
50:44 Speaker 07 Yes.
50:45 Speaker 00 This bootstrap, okay, and mostly direct to consumer. So what are you guys roughly doing in sales right now? Have you cracked like $50,000, $100,000 a year?
50:55 Speaker 07 We're close. We're really close.
50:57 Speaker 00 Nice.
50:58 Speaker 01 Nice.
50:59 Speaker 00 Congrats. That's great. All right, how can we help you today?
51:02 Speaker 07 So the question that I had is that we've been laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well and trying to own that space. We do have customers asking us to work on a sports bra or sports shorts. What do you think about adding one or two other verticals like sports bras or sports shorts at this point in our process? Or should we just own underwear?
51:33 Speaker 00 Jane, who launched with 20 plus different SKUs. Jane, what do you think?
51:39 Speaker 01 First of all, I love this. I think it's great. I think you have a real shot of building a brand with this. I'm on your website. I love these three women running through the field with buffalo bison in the background in their underwear. It's just fantastic. It's very high quality. We need underwear that works like this. And I think I would not expand. You've got to own this underwear niche. You've got to be, when I think underwear, I've got to think parody. I think that there's all kinds of opportunities to expand within the underwear. I don't know, I do, I love Pilates, Pilates underwear. We need something when we're doing standing leg series, trust me. You've got a pregnant woman in one of
52:21 Speaker 01 your shots, but pregnancy underwear, there's specific sports, I imagine, like, I don't know, hurdles, pickleball, which is huge. Mens, I think, could be the next big step. I wouldn't charge into swimwear and shorts and all the rest of it until, you've got a great product going here and you've got great attention from press. I wouldn't spread yourself too thin.
52:44 Speaker 00 I'm going to jump in and make a counter, a counter argument to you, Jane.
52:48 Speaker 01 Okay, you go, Guy.
52:50 Speaker 00 I actually think, first of all, I think this, that, that being a women's brand is the way to go, at least for now.
52:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:56 Speaker 00 The thing about sports bras, to me, I would say you should go for it because you've solved, you've already solved the underwear problem. And I would imagine, and again, I'm, I'm a guy here, so I don't, you know, know this intimately as a two of you, but I would imagine that that's the other problem that a lot of women athletes have, right? Which is dealing with, with a bra or a top that isn't, you know, holding things together. And if you, if you know that you've solved the problem with underwear, I'm pretty sure you will know how to solve the problem with tops and sports bras as well. And I would think those two together would be a really powerful, um, you know, sorry, go ahead.
53:39 Speaker 01 It's two totally different parts of your body. I mean, a bra is very specific. I mean, whether it's, it's your size, it's your cup size, it's your, most people haven't got a clue what size bra they should be wearing. And I, I love that whole idea, and, but I think it's too soon. You're going to distract yourself with the underwire versus the front forcing, folding bras, the expandable straps, the, the crossover straps.
54:06 Speaker 00 Sports bras don't have wire in there, in there at all, do they?
54:08 Speaker 01 But. Well, that's probably one of the reasons why people, if you're larger breasted, you don't normally find one that really works for you. If you put on one without an underwire, it is more comfortable, but then you look as if you've got a dash and strapped around your chest. Everything sort of folds into the middle. So I think, it's not that I don't think you should ever do underwear like bras, but and slips and petticoats, what the heck's going on at that time. But I think there's such a market in lower half underwear before you concentrate on top half.
54:42 Speaker 00 I mean, she does have an opening here, Jane, because it's called Paradisport, not Paradis underwear. So this is, I mean, there's a bigger vision here, Sarah, right?
54:54 Speaker 01 Okay, all right.
54:55 Speaker 07 Maybe, but I, I do think that bras open up, they, they require so many sizes. And that with minimum orders per size, that's a huge hesitancy that I have there. But I also, I love the idea of doing one thing really well.
55:17 Speaker 00 But if you want to scale something, right, and this, this, you've got a lot going for you. You've got a great logo, you've got a good name. I mean, underwear by women for women. You've got underwear for women athletes. I mean, you've got a lot going on. And I wonder whether you can build a whole business and scale a whole business on just one thing, right, on just underwear, especially as, as, you know, the other, the big 800 pound gorillas in the space, the aloes and the Lululemons and others who are, they may start to, they could start to make underwear. I don't know if they do. So I wonder whether there is an argument to be made that despite the complexity, it, it is worth the risk.
55:56 Speaker 01 I think there are companies that, that are known for their underwear, their lingerie, you know, and they may do panties and bras, but, but in any event, they, I. I love the idea of going narrow and deep. I think there's enough crazy people like me that really think about underwear in a different way that would be your customers. We might be divided here, Guy. I say, I say go narrow and deep.
56:26 Speaker 00 Or divided. But I love that. And by the way, this is the longest conversation I've had about women's underwear in my whole life. By the way, what is the name? Paradis? It's, it's, where's I come from?
56:37 Speaker 07 So it's paying homage to Marie Paradis, who is the first woman to climb Mont Blanc in the hot palace peak in the Alps.
56:46 Speaker 00 Oh, I love it.
56:47 Speaker 01 Okay, you just, you had me at Marie. What?
56:50 Speaker 07 It's an amazing story, too. She went up in 1808 with a party of men and she was wearing a wool skirt and leather shoes, leather town shoes, and she persisted and-
57:05 Speaker 01 Oh, you've got it on your website. Wait, I've just found her.
57:08 Speaker 00 And imagine how much more comfortable that, that climb would have been with your underwear.
57:13 Speaker 07 That's what we were thinking. We hope she would support our efforts to outfit women for comfort and performance. Yes.
57:22 Speaker 01 This is a great piece on the website, this Marie, Marie story. Plus, I think that, who are the Maries of today? I have a niece who's an ultra athlete in the UK. She's a GB athlete and she is an, she competes in Ironman and she just rode across the Atlantic, literally with two other women. Yeah. And they are out there, the Maries of the world. Marie Paradis is out there and waiting for your underwear.
57:50 Speaker 00 And look, you're, you're coming to the table with so much like standing as a former D1 athlete, Sarah. So, I mean-
57:57 Speaker 01 Yes.
57:57 Speaker 00 You know, I can imagine that, are you, do you have any ends at some of the universities? And, and I mean, are you able to get these to, to college students who women who are playing on the Stanford soccer team or the field hockey team at wherever?
58:12 Speaker 07 Yes, I played at Dartmouth College and the field hockey and lacrosse players have been my interns and fit testers and they're incredible. Yeah.
58:21 Speaker 00 I love it.
58:22 Speaker 07 I'd, I'd love, love to reach other college athletes as well.
58:25 Speaker 00 I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about this brand the next couple of years. Sarah, I say go into bras and sports bras. Jane says, don't. One of us, we might both be right.
58:36 Speaker 01 I say, listen to Sarah Blakely's interview with Guy. That was one of your early ones. Spanx.
58:42 Speaker 00 Yep. She did one thing right. You're right.
58:44 Speaker 01 Focus on that. And then you can expand. That's my model for you, Spanx.
58:49 Speaker 00 I think that's good advice. Sarah Wyman, Parody Sports. Congrats. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.
58:55 Speaker 07 Thank you so much for having me on the show. And Jane, thank you so much for everything you've done for women who own businesses. It's really incredible.
59:03 Speaker 01 Thank you. To be, to be continued. But thanks, thanks so much. And good luck. You've got, you've got something here.
59:09 Speaker 07 Thank you so much.
59:10 Speaker 00 Thank you. Jane, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question about if you could go back in time and you could say, Jane, do this, do that, you know, or know this. What's something that you wish you knew that might have been just to help a little bit more helpful?
59:29 Speaker 01 Oh, there's probably so much. But I think the one thing that does come to mind is that I wish I'd known sooner that there are no real experts out there. I mean, there are people that have more experience and they may have had more success and they may have made more money, but it doesn't mean that they're experts about your business. You know your business the best. You know what's driving it for you emotionally. You know your customers when you're an entrepreneur. And I, for a long time, I felt like I didn't know very much. I was kind of winging it. I was having some lucky hits and there must
1:00:13 Speaker 01 be experts out there that could be doing a lot better job. And then it wasn't too many years before I realized, actually, no, not always. You can hire in people to assist you, but there's no one that's going to run your brand or love your brand the way you do.
1:00:27 Speaker 00 For sure. Jane Wurwand, thank you so, so much for coming on the show.
1:00:32 Speaker 01 Thank you, Guy. Thanks so much for having me back. I loved it.
1:00:35 Speaker 00 That's Thermological co-founder Jane Wurwand. And by the way, if you haven't heard Jane's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
1:00:49 Speaker 01 We went to a contract manufacturer in Los Angeles, literally sort of fell on our swords and told them our dream, gave them the pitch and said, we need you to do like a test run for us. He said, look, I have absolutely no reason to do this because 99% of everyone that sits opposite me telling me this story does not succeed. But for some crazy reason, I think you've got something interesting and I want to be in for the ride.
1:01:19 Speaker 00 Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And
1:02:04 Speaker 00 we'll put all this in the podcast description as well.
1:02:08 Speaker 00 This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rausch. Our production staff also includes Neva Grant, Andrea Bruce, Alex Chung, Casey Herman, J.C. Howard, Kerry Thompson, Ramel Wood, Chris Messina, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
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