Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Advice Line with Eric Ryan of Method returns About this episode Today’s callers: Christina from California wonders how to build trust with her fragrance brand formulated without allergens. Then, James, also from California, assesses how he can create more brand awareness for his kids' flip flop company. And Ben from Florida evaluates whether he should raise outside capital for his light-up jewelry products.
Plus, Eric’s philosophy on identifying strong founders and the brands now that he’s moved from being an entrepreneur to being an investor.
Thank you to the founders of Havyn, Pidgin Toes, and Reserved for Humans for being a part of our show.
If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.
And be sure to listen to Method’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/8d3ce6b4-53b5-42be-aac7-904e387a3f9e/embed as told by Eric Ryan and Adam Lowry on the show in 2018.
This episode was produced by Noor Gill with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Casey Herman. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.
You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ and on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/.
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5:17 Speaker 00 Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on this show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Eric Ryan. He's a serial entrepreneur and the co-founder of Method, Ollie, Wellie, Tandy, just a whole bunch of incredible brands, and that's not all of them. And this is actually the second time Eric has joined
5:59 Speaker 00 me on the How I Built This Advice Line to take your calls. Eric, thank you so much for coming back.
6:03 Speaker 01 Oh, so happy to be back, Guy. Thank you for having me.
6:06 Speaker 00 And of course, if any of you listening haven't heard the original story about how Eric and Adam Lowry built the cleaning products brand, Method, you gotta check it out. It's an awesome story. We will put a link to it in the show notes. Eric, when you were on Advice Line back last summer, we got an update on some of the projects that you had kind of wound down. Give us a sense of what's going on right now. What are you up to? You are so busy. You've got all these different things happening at the same time. Give us an update.
6:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I've moved much more into the venture investing space. And I joined Graycroft. We are launching a new $150 million dedicated consumer fund. We just made our first two investments. So I've officially made the move from entrepreneur to investor.
6:49 Speaker 00 Wow. And how does that feel? I mean, you were on the other side of the table for so long and probably had some opinions about some of the investors that you talked to. Yeah, what is that, what's that like?
6:59 Speaker 01 You know, it's like, when you're an entrepreneur, as we're about to talk to several of them today, you very much feel like a quarterback and you get sacked over and over. So to be on the sidelines and playing coach feels really good, where you can say to somebody, get back in the game. You got this. So after years of getting sacked, it's, I'm really enjoying starting to play coach.
7:20 Speaker 00 Tell me a little bit about, I know your philosophy about, about building businesses was, was basically identifying opportunities for brands that, you know, that, that needed a disruption or cultural shift, right? Like cleaning products or vitamins or, you know, first aid, right? Which is all these things you did. Do you apply that to, to what you look for in, in other startups that you, you're going to invest in?
7:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, very much so. And we work really closely with like Target as a retail partner. And so I focus very much on identifying in any given category over the next three to five years, like what are going to be the big macro trends? And then it's just pattern matching and going out and scouting and finding founders and entrepreneurs then who are kind of building into that.
8:04 Speaker 00 Interesting, yeah. As you know, you're here in the Bay Area and it seems like it's, it's here with more intensity right now, this idea that Investors are really cold on consumer products right now.
8:17 Speaker 01 Very much so.
8:17 Speaker 00 Consumer brands, CPG, right? Because of a variety of reasons. There was a sort of exuberant period where a lot of money went into consumer brands and a lot of them didn't, or some of them didn't work out. And it's tough. It's a tough market. It's tough to hit $100 million, right? Which is really where a brand is either, you know, a target for acquisition or raises more money and then pursues going public. I mean, is that, is it real? Is it true? And if so, what's your sense of why?
8:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, you know, I think it's a great time to be getting back into consumer. That's why I love our timing of building this fund. And what you said is exactly what happened. We really saw, you know, around 2020, 21, and even before that, a lot of tech money poured into consumer. And the things that were like literally a recipe would suddenly be classified as food tech. And these insane valuations got applied that brought out all sorts of bad behaviors of trying to grow too fast. And I think now we've seen a really great reset. And it's never been easier to start a company, but it's never been harder to scale one. And I think as an investor, really picking the founders and the brands that you think fundamentally can be 100, 200 million brands, like one of them I've been involved with
9:27 Speaker 01 for the last three years is Googles, the mac and cheese. And, you know, trying to find those Googles are not easy.
9:34 Speaker 00 All right. Well, I think that the answer to this question is yes. Are you ready for our first call?
9:38 Speaker 01 Let's do it.
9:39 Speaker 00 All right. Let's, let's bring our first caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
9:48 Speaker 02 Hi, Guy. Hi, Eric. My name is Christina Pang. I am calling from San Diego today, and I am the founder of Haven Beauty. Our mission is to bring joy and beauty to the lives of all through scent. And the way that we are doing that is by building the first fine fragrance and skincare brand formulated without the 82 known fragrance allergens, so that everyone, including those who have had to give up fragrance in the past, can enjoy it again.
10:14 Speaker 00 All right. Welcome to the show, Christina. So Haven is a, it's basically perfume, but that is for people who stopped using it because they were allergic to it?
10:25 Speaker 02 Yes, so we do perfumes as well as fragranced skincare. And we also have some home fragrance products. And it is designed to be suitable even for people who haven't been able to use it. So we're not.
10:39 Speaker 00 Interesting.
10:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, we're not excluding people who just generally love fragrance, but we're making it possible for those who haven't been able to enjoy it.
10:48 Speaker 00 You know, I think as somebody who reacts to things with my skin, I think most, maybe not most, but like, I feel like at least a third of the human population has some reaction to things like, you know. And so this is really interesting to me because I imagine, right? A lot of people are allergic to things in perfumes and they stop using it. Tell me the idea behind it. Did you have this issue yourself?
11:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, so you know, my background has been in the beauty industry. But then when I had my eldest child, he was born severely allergic and had also severe eczema. And so what we found was that he was just reacting to everything. So even clean, natural products, we were getting reactions to. And it wasn't until we cut all fragrance out of our lives, including natural fragrances, that his skin began to clear up. So naturally, we kind of started looking into, hey, what is it about fragrance that is causing so many issues? And what we found is that fragrance ingredients in general, including natural ones, they contain a lot of allergens.
11:56 Speaker 02 And so it's not necessarily toxic, but if you're allergic to it, it's going to give you a reaction. And, you know, because he also had multiple food allergies, from that journey, we had discovered, hey, if you exclude what he's allergic to, you know, we're still able to make great food. So it's kind of a similar concept. We were applying to fragrance, skincare, beauty.
12:22 Speaker 00 That seems really hard, right? Because a lot of fragrances are just oils, right? Like lavender or something. And I mean, imagine you can't create a line of endless scents, right? There are only certain ones that work.
12:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's really, really challenging. And that's also why it hasn't really been done, because you're effectively going from thousands of fragrance ingredients, limiting that palette to maybe a couple hundred, if you're lucky. It's also something you can't necessarily do at home yourself in your own kitchen. You know, you you do need to partner with a specialized fragrance lab because they use these techniques to kind of separate the compounds that are allergenic from those that aren't.
13:05 Speaker 00 And tell me a little bit about the business. What did you say you launched?
13:07 Speaker 02 So I started the business August of 2024, after I left my corporate job. We were already kind of working on candles and things. And then we started working on the beauty and personal care. After that, we launched our first product last summer in July.
13:25 Speaker 00 Okay. And and tell me about your sales last year. How'd you do?
13:29 Speaker 02 We ended the year a little bit over 100,000 this year to date. We're on track to maybe get to 250, 300. But we do have a stretch goal for ourselves of 400.
13:41 Speaker 00 And where are you selling the products?
13:43 Speaker 02 We initially launched on direct to consumer. We also have wholesale accounts with several luxury resorts and spas. And just last month, we launched nationwide at Anthropologie.
13:55 Speaker 00 Okay, awesome. I want to bring in Eric Ryan. But before I do, tell us your question, and we'll see if we can answer it.
14:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, so effectively, there have been millions of consumers with eczema, sensitive skin. They've been trained to think fragrance is bad and just to avoid fragrance entirely. And even the experts that they trust, like dermatologists, have been trained to think that as well. So when you're introducing a new idea into an established category like that, you know, how do you rebuild that trust and help people feel comfortable giving fragrance a try again, especially if you have a very limited marketing budget?
14:33 Speaker 00 Okay, Eric Ryan, I want to bring you in. Any thoughts, ideas, questions that you may have for Christina?
14:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think you nailed it, which is like, you've got a really good idea. Fragrance is a hot category, particularly with Gen Alpha and Gen Z. Let me ask you a quick question. What percentage of consumers have fragrance allergies or are easily irritated by fragrances?
14:56 Speaker 02 So there's about 30 million Americans who have eczema and then more than 100 million people who self identify as having sensitive skin. So that's a pretty big number because you can assume that most of them, a significant portion of them, aren't able to use fragrance products.
15:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, okay. It's fascinating because you're entering into a huge category that's growing and there's a really big addressable audience today, but you nailed it, which is the challenge of reeducating them, going from fragrance is bad to me to fragrance is safe for me. That's a huge leap. I think, you know, really educating consumers is hard, reeducating them is even harder. And so I think you're approaching it the right way. Just looking at the packaging is really beautiful and I think you have to create a brand that is appealing to everybody that just happens to be allergen free and really kind of run two paths, which continue to bring in people who don't have sensitivities
15:59 Speaker 01 but really love this idea of a fragrance that's just better for me in general, right? Because we're all questioning what's in these products while at the same time bringing in this group that's written off fragrances. But I think if you focus only on them, it's a much slower build and just like nailing your emotional hook, the idea of like, you know, fragrance you can finally wear and finding influencers who previously have never been able to wear a fragrance, finally I can wear fragrance again.
16:29 Speaker 00 So Eric, what you're saying is, is that it's probably a better idea to try and appeal to everybody who's looking for a quote unquote, better for you fragrance or better for you products. I mean, one of the things that I think Christina would probably benefit from is having some kind of clinical study. And if that's not possible, like even dermatologists who could speak to the products like testimonials or even customer test. I mean, your website's great, but I don't see any of that. Maybe I'm missing it. Is that something that you're exploring and that you might want to try?
17:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, we have done several clinical tests. Actually, you can imagine clinical tests are quite expensive. So we've done some on sensitive skin first, and they have come out with just incredible results. So we do share those with dermatologists that we speak with. We were also trying to work with some third parties to kind of like get different seals and everything. But again, it's quite expensive because there's just so many tests involved. And then I think one of the things we found is a lot of times these tests are also testing on healthy skin. And so since we're trying to prove something works for skin that's been really sensitized,
17:47 Speaker 02 it's also more expensive to recruit that population. So we are working on it, but it's taking a little bit longer.
17:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. One other idea too. So you're currently working with Anthropologie, and I would imagine you're starting to think about Alta and really working with a retailer to create this, you know, fragrance safe. At the end of the day, like you're not really building a brand, you're building a completely new category. And I would really brand that category, maybe around the idea of allergen-free fragrance, and make that a destination inside of a retailer. So if you sit down with Alta, it's not about selling Haven, which by the way, is a great brand name. I think, again, the design is beautiful, and you can really see your beauty background coming through. But if you sit down with like an Alta or a Target and work with them on this idea that Haven is not a new brand, it's really a new category, and then brand that category and then position yourself, of course, as the leader of that category.
18:42 Speaker 02 That's really great. I love that.
18:44 Speaker 01 I really think the, this idea of allergy-free is relevant to everybody because it really means it's a safer fragrance. I think you want to really build this fragrance back to like, at the end of the day, it is the most beautiful, amazing, like it just wins as a great fragrance that, oh, happens to be allergen-free. That core audience who is really in need for them, I think that's a marketing tactic. That is going to be a harder climb of convincing them that actually now fragrance is safe for you.
19:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:15 Speaker 01 But I think ultimately to turn this into a big brand, you've got to serve both audiences. And look, most innovation comes from like really serving the needs of an extreme user that then you apply that to a general population. And fragrance, the challenge with fragrance is yes, it's a big category, it's growing, but it's insanely crowded. And I think the allergen free really gives you a meaningful point of difference. That's both rational as well as the emotion of selling a beautiful, fine fragrance.
19:43 Speaker 00 The brand is called Haven. Christina Penn, good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you.
19:47 Speaker 01 Thanks Christina. Great to meet you.
19:49 Speaker 00 All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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23:45 Speaker 00 Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is serial entrepreneur Eric Ryan. And we're taking your calls. And Eric, you ready for our next one?
23:54 Speaker 01 Let's do it.
23:55 Speaker 00 All right, let's bring our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Eric Ryan, co-founder of Method and founder of many other products. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, please.
24:05 Speaker 03 Hey, Guy and Eric. It's an honor to be with you guys. I learn a lot from this show, so thanks very much for the opportunity. My name is James Chambliss. I'm from Orange County, California. I'm the founder of Pigeon Toes, which is a fun kids flip-flop brand. Our goal is to build the world's raddest, comfiest kids flip-flops. And our core focus and motto is Built for Comfort for Kids.
24:27 Speaker 00 And welcome to the show, James. So tell, what makes your, the flip-flops, right? And what makes them different or special from other flip-flops?
24:34 Speaker 03 Yeah, we've done a couple of core things, which, one of the number one complaints of kids, for the first time getting into flip-flops, is the scratchy toe cord between their toes. And so when we did some research and starting this out, we found that out. And so we've come up with just a really pillowy, soft toe cord. And then the second thing that kind of helps us stick out is kids can customize their strap design. And so what happens on our website is they're able to choose their flavor, which is the color. So that's the first choice. And then they're able to choose their topping, which is the strap design, which is kind of fun for them.
25:09 Speaker 00 Oh, cool. So it's customizable. So it's not just like ready to wear. You can actually design the flip-flop. Okay, cool. And tell me, you said you launched it last year. Have you been in the apparel business or in footwear? Or is like, how did this start?
25:24 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I've actually been in the apparel business. I started my core company out of college. And so I've been doing this for a while. I started with screen printing, doing mainly t-shirts and delivering them to the dorms. And it's kind of a funny story, but I used to put the t-shirts in my oven in my kitchen, because I didn't have a big conveyor belt oven to cure the ink. And so I would deliver them to the dorms, hot out of the oven. So I've been doing that for a while. Now I do some help with branding and kind of the the brand imagery, which is what I really love to do. And that's kind of what I did with Pigeon Toes.
25:54 Speaker 00 All right, you launched last year. Tell me how you're doing so far. Give me a sense of like, you know, of your sales, like quarterly sales.
26:03 Speaker 03 Yeah, so far today, we're about 15K. So we really got going to end of Q4 last year and started hitting the ground running then.
26:11 Speaker 00 Got it. Okay, before we dive in further, tell us your question.
26:15 Speaker 03 Yeah, so in a saturated market where I'm competing with brands with far more resources for content generation, plus the ability to undercut my $39 per pair price point, what can I do to build brand awareness and reach more customers?
26:30 Speaker 00 All right, Eric Ryan, pigeon toes, flip flops, customizable, and more comfortable questions or thoughts for James?
26:38 Speaker 01 I'm disappointed you're not solving the biggest problem with kids' flip flops, losing them. The number of times I had to buy more flip flops. I finally got to the point on vacation, I always packed two pairs for every kid, knowing that we would need a backup.
26:55 Speaker 01 I love, I'm just looking at the website too, and I love the branding, the overall approach. Let me ask you a question. At the heart of it, what are you really solving?
27:03 Speaker 03 That's a good question. I mean, I'd say that in the industry, I saw a gap where all the kids' flip flops were mainly adult lines dabbling in kids. And so I really wanted to come in and say, hey, we are the best done kids' flip flop brand dedicated to creating awesome kids' flip flops.
27:22 Speaker 01 It's really trying to win on a product iteration is tough because it almost becomes more of an invention than building a brand. I love the name Pigeon, by the way. I don't know if you could just drop toes and just like pigeon and just gives you a little bit more space to go, but even the idea of pigeon flip flops. And that I think will help you unlock again, like this bigger idea of like, what do you own? Do you own summer? Do you own kids' first flip flop moment? Do you own kids' shoes? But I think there's a bigger idea here that you're kind of working on. First though, is you got to win in this category. I think the customization really is, I think making that the hero is super, super smart. That's what's going to drive content and I would
28:04 Speaker 01 really focus as much as you can on driving customization and then telling those stories. The other part I'm really, I think you could do well here as part of customization is licensing. Licensing, especially with retailers, is a great quick shortcut to really build, even though you're borrowing someone else's brand equity, but particularly for kids, bringing in kids' characters and being able to custom on top of that, I think would really get that flywheel going and be able to drive a lot more content around it.
28:32 Speaker 03 That sounds like a lot of fun.
28:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, I agree. I saw, I must have been on Instagram or something, a shop in somewhere in Southeast Asia where you go in and there are flip flops on like a wheel and you spin the wheel and you can stop it on a maybe you've seen this and then you can pick the strap and I saw that and you could create these customizable flip flops. Now you're doing it here and so when I look at this, I think this is an experiential business. I think the direct to consumer is great and I hope it really blows up, but I think this is something that if you can kind of turn it into almost like a Build-A-Bear kind of thing, I mean, that's probably not the best analogy, but but maybe it's something kids do on vacation. Like they know they're going to go to
29:13 Speaker 00 a shop that has this product available and they can spin a wheel and pick their flip flop and then you know, spin another wheel and it's and maybe they could even put their name on it. To me, this feels like an experience that you can do with your kids on vacation, right? And it's like choose your own adventure. So it's not just a practical thing that you're going to want and wear, but it's a fun experience. And so I wonder whether, I mean, you said you're in Orange County. I mean, could you or have you tried to do a live experience like at even at a farmer's market? Or at a, you know, a sort of a fair or something where people can actually make them in real time?
29:52 Speaker 03 Yeah, I've had the thought and it's a really good idea, which kind of pushes me to want to do it more. You know, because I've really been trying through my website, how do I paint that picture, you know? And so I thought up close, I really might be able to see people's reaction to it and do something like that. But we could do it. Yeah, it's a good idea.
30:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think that's the gold. I think everything is built around customization. And guy, I love that too, because you could do hotel activations. And that then drives your entire content strategy. And then if you could layer on licensing on top of it to just continue to drive freshness and relevancy. And at the end of the day, I think you're not selling flip flops, you're really selling summer and celebrating summer. And summer sometimes is on a vacation during the winter. But that I think will give you the foundation that will start then unlock a bigger brand idea here as well.
30:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, can you imagine Eric being on vacation with your family somewhere and in the hotel lobby? There's somebody who offers this product and you've got a kid and they're like, I want those flip flops, right? And you would do it. I mean, make your flip flops in 10 minutes. How long does it take, by the way, to make a pair of these, James?
31:00 Speaker 03 Gosh, a few minutes per pair right now, which we're hopefully will speed up.
31:05 Speaker 00 That though, a few minutes is great. I mean, if it's part of an activity and it's customizable and even down the road, you get your name printed on the, you know, on it, what's the, on the strap? I mean, you can imagine all kinds of activations.
31:18 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah.
31:20 Speaker 01 How hard would it be to create event teams that go into, kind of building on Guy's idea? So you send event teams into hotels during peak moments and you use that to not only drive sales, but also drive content that ultimately fuels your marketing?
31:34 Speaker 03 There's a process right now with the straps, which is a little more labor intensive and takes a little bit of a skill set. And so that's my only concern. So we would have to figure out a way to streamline that and make it a little more foolproof, I think.
31:48 Speaker 00 But have you done it yourself, anything like that so far?
31:52 Speaker 03 Oh, no, I love the idea. Yeah. And I, there's plenty of them down here and I think doing that would be really fun.
31:58 Speaker 00 And
31:59 Speaker 03 And I know my kids will love it.
32:00 Speaker 00 And as Eric said, it's a chance to create content and to encourage people to do it. You know, scan this QR code, show us your design, you know, show us your flip flops, feature, put the kid, you know, and then eventually on your webpage, you want to see kids wearing these things. You want to see what it looks like on kids' feet.
32:15 Speaker 03 I love it. Yeah, it's great. It's a great idea.
32:17 Speaker 00 Eric, final thoughts or James?
32:18 Speaker 01 If you can create cost neutral marketing through events, then I think you solve your problem of how to create a flywheel here. And then how I agree with Guy is like, this is you're really selling an experience. And any way you can layer on that experience, vacation kits, summer bundles, and I think ultimately as a parent, like that would have been the best souvenir to come back with, with kids.
32:40 Speaker 00 Yep.
32:41 Speaker 03 Got it.
32:42 Speaker 00 And useful too, right?
32:43 Speaker 01 Exactly.
32:43 Speaker 00 Not just another piece of junk or like another stuffed animal that just gathers dust. Yeah.
32:48 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:49 Speaker 00 Awesome. The brand's called Pigeon Toes. James Chambliss, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.
32:54 Speaker 03 Thank you, guys. It was a pleasure.
32:55 Speaker 01 Thanks, James.
32:56 Speaker 00 Thanks.
32:58 Speaker 00 I mean, you've gone through this with your kids and, and at some point you're like, so you've had this thing on your shelf for like nine years that you bought, you know, at a souvenir shop and what are you going to do with it? And so eventually they're just going to go off to college and just leave it in their room and then they're going to box it up and put it in your basement. And then one day you're going to say, hey, you bought this for like $7 on vacation and I've been storing it in my basement for 19 years. And anyway, flip flops.
33:27 Speaker 01 Now, and every parent loves flip flops and there's nothing cuter than little flip flops with a kid's name on it and some sort of customization. So like, you know, parents will just eat this up. But I think that's the right approach, the way he's thinking about it.
33:40 Speaker 00 Okay. Next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your business questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
34:05 Speaker 00 Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Eric Ryan, who founded Method, Ollie, Welly and so many more brands. Eric, are you ready for our next call?
34:16 Speaker 01 Let's get into it.
34:16 Speaker 00 All right. Well, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Eric Ryan, co-founder of Method, founder of many other brands, Welly, Ollie, et cetera. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
34:29 Speaker 04 Thank you, Guy, and thank you, Eric. My name is Ben Forrest and I'm calling out of Deland, Florida. And I'm the founder of Reserved for Humans, which is a brand that is exploring a new category in jewelry. And our first product is the Spire Pendant, which is a light up crystal necklace that is designed to reveal the hidden textures and colors inside of natural stone. The Spire is the start to a broader line of illuminated jewelry with more designs currently in development.
34:58 Speaker 00 Awesome. Ben, thanks for, thanks for calling in. So it's a crystal that you wear around your neck and it has like a light in it, like you flip a switch and a light goes on?
35:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, currently you twist it to turn it on and it has a very soft light that lasts surprisingly a long period of time, over a week straight, where you can use it sparingly.
35:17 Speaker 00 Got it. And when did you launch this business?
35:20 Speaker 04 I soft-launched it last year in August. I say soft because I started with low quantity. The way it was the machine designed allowed me to start small, kind of test the market, not go broke with the tooling and everything.
35:35 Speaker 00 And tell me, who are your customers? Like, who's buying these things?
35:40 Speaker 04 So you would think music festivals, parties, everyone, like their first thing is like, go to the music festivals. And actually, all of our marketing is on Meta right now because I can't go past my bandwidth. It's just me doing the marketing. And our customers are very, very diverse in age and culture and background. And it's just surprising to learn how liquid the market is for this thing.
36:02 Speaker 00 And how have you done so far in sales?
36:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, so after soft-launching, I kind of stress-tested the ads and my high school friends and my mom just assembling these. And December, we did 92,000 in revenue.
36:17 Speaker 00 $92,000 in December?
36:20 Speaker 04 Yeah.
36:20 Speaker 00 Wow. Have you replicated that since?
36:23 Speaker 04 I actually turned everything off to go right to China. I spent two months there to get the assembly and work with factories and prepare for 3PL. And just now got back, actually a few days ago, and starting to turn the ads back on and prepare to scale.
36:44 Speaker 00 Wow, okay, this is interesting. All right, we've got a lot of questions for you. But before we get there, what's your question for us?
36:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, so the Spyro pendant appears to be the first of its kind, and we've already seen early traction. My concern is that if this truly becomes a new category in jewelry mainstream, like I really, truly believe it will, larger companies with more resources and speed can come in, especially given it's hardware. So should I raise outside capital now and expand the product line and build the brand around it? Or just continue bootstrapping? And don't listen to that little voice that's like, hurry up.
37:20 Speaker 00 Got it. Okay, Eric Ryan, I want to bring you in here. Interesting product, $90,000 in one month. I mean, wow.
37:28 Speaker 01 Now, Ben, what I love what you're doing is you're putting a fresh spin on jewelry. I mean, you're really creating digital jewelry. And jewelry has always been about expressing oneself. And what I love about the light approach is you're actually allowing people to express how they feel in that moment. And I think there's something really, really powerful in that. But you're also running the risk of becoming a one-hit novelty. And also just getting, you know, run over by fast followers from China and Etsy. So I think being really thoughtful about how you build a brand around this. And really laddering up to like, what is the big idea here? Because the big idea is not jewelry that lights up.
38:07 Speaker 01 I think the big idea is how this allows you to express yourself in a way that's always been inherent and true to jewelry. But it hasn't been done before. And you're just applying a modern approach to that. When people use the product, what do they, how do they really express what they love about it? What does it give them?
38:25 Speaker 04 I think it kind of just scratches that itch, your inner child. And that's, it sounds silly, but that's kind of how it started is just the curiosity and, and the wonder behind this, this object, which you can assign meaning. And I think it also, it like invites curiosity. So a lot of people, they, they tell us they get so many compliments and I see it myself, wearing it. It just kind of stands out. So people are like, what is that? How does, does that light up? Is that a crystal? And it just like creates a moment by just wearing it too.
38:57 Speaker 01 And then the capital question, have you started to talk to investors yet?
39:01 Speaker 04 I haven't, one just kind of like saw our story one day, like in the midst of December. And I just jumped the gun and like sent him some and he apparently loved it. But I didn't want to seem desperate and like keep following up. I don't know when the, the right time is, and that's what brought me here.
39:17 Speaker 01 Well, one thing I can tell you is the right time to raise money is when you don't need it. And you're also kind of solving an imaginary problem right now, which is to take capital or not take capital. But you don't know yet if you can even raise capital for this. And so my advice would be, don't worry about the decision to raise or not raise. I would start reaching out to investors and really go into those conversations, not trying to prove yourself, but really improve yourself. Like going in and really listening and understanding. And the great thing is like, you don't actually have to ask for the money because if anybody's excited about it, of course, they'll always offer to invest. That's what investors do. But I think right now, I would put aside the decision whether I have to raise capital or not, and I would just start taking meetings and really use that to learn.
40:01 Speaker 01 And then, if you have an investor that really wants to move forward with you, then make the decision whether to take that investment. And the worst case is, you don't need the capital yet, you want to keep bootstrapping it, but you've started to warm up an investor base, so when you do need the money, you're not starting cold.
40:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, my feeling, it's slightly different, which is, I don't think you're in a, I think it's a great idea to talk to investors, I don't think you're in a position to raise money. Ninety-two thousand in a month is incredible, but people want to see that repeated, right? They want to see consistency. The other thing is, is that, and I'm just going to put this very bluntly, and then I'm going to follow up with, I'm going to give you some bad news, but then I'm going to follow up with some good news, which is, I don't believe you have a defensible product. This is a product that can be replicated, right? The good news is, if you build a brand around it, then you create that moat. And it sounds like that's really where you want to put your energy, which I think is where you absolutely should be putting your energy.
40:58 Speaker 00 And the brand around this thing, I mean, I'm not a crystal wearer, but I can imagine the kind of person that wants to wear a glow-in-the-dark crystal, and I mean this with all sincerity, not in any way like, oh, that's a sort of a weird hippie, but I mean, it's a person who wants to be part of a community, right? What does it mean to wear this? It's almost like people who wear fancy watches, you know, people who wear certain fancy brands of watches, they will recognize somebody else wearing that watch, and they will oftentimes have a conversation, like across, I've seen this happen in restaurants and bars, you know, or some people wave at each other when they're driving the same car. That's the community you want to build.
41:41 Speaker 00 And so I think that you have a lot of work, but really interesting work ahead of you, to focus on that community aspect of this, of what these are, because somebody else can come up with light-up crystals. So now, the question is, well, why are they going to buy your crystals? Because they're reserved for humans, right? This is your brand. So that's, that's where I think you are right now. And I agree with Eric, you're not in a place to raise money, and you shouldn't be, but having those conversations certainly doesn't hurt. I just don't know if you're going to have the bandwidth to do that, and build a brand, and focus on advertising, and production, and et cetera, et cetera.
42:17 Speaker 04 I love that. Thank you. And maybe I'll take up Eric's advice and take these meetings when I have the bandwidth, just for practice and maybe something will happen.
42:27 Speaker 01 That's right. Build those relationships and just get as much free learning as you can while you're on this journey.
42:32 Speaker 00 Eric, you also, it's amazing how many categories you have experience in and you built brands and you have experience in jewelry as well. How do you, I mean, I'm putting you on the spot a little bit here, but how would you think about starting to build a brand around, you know, a light up crystal, a pendant around your neck?
42:50 Speaker 01 It's a really exciting challenge, but it's not an easy challenge. And that's why I was going back to like, it's how does this product make you feel when you wear it? And how does it allow you to express your feelings to other people? And I think in a lot of ways, you've kind of created the modern day mood ring. And if there's a way to be able to really build into it, that you can express your mood or your energy on the spot through it. And I think that does what Guy said is like, then it creates conversations. So when you're in a social setting or a bar and somebody like recognizes it, that's a great conversation starter. But I think that's really the big idea here is, like I said, jewelry's always been about expressing individuality and personality
43:34 Speaker 01 and what you care about. But no one's ever been able to express their mood in real time through jewelry. And now because you can apply digital technology to do that, I think that's really the big idea. And that's what drives the community that Guy is referring to.
43:47 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I'm thinking like, you want to have people posting photos of them at Burning Man or I don't know, just festivals. And I'm just spitballing here, but like a desert festival, you know? To me, it's like that's, it's a community of people who are open, artistic, sort of free spirited and spiritual, maybe. And there's a lot of different directions you can go in. And one thing is, have you tapped into your customer base? Have you had a chance to ask, who are you? What do you like? What are you interested in? Have you, and if you haven't, then you should start to do that.
44:28 Speaker 04 So our ads are quite different and I've used different models and different like the festival vibe. I went into Bonnaroo and filmed and did reactions and stuff, but a lot of them are like, I have a model friend that's wearing a denim jacket, very normal clothes and he's got some other chains on, walking in slow motion and that's hitting a whole different market of just normal, not crystal lovers and music festival rave goers. It's just like, it fits in with like, oh, like that could be my style and you can wear it with anything.
45:03 Speaker 00 It's like, Eric, it's like how like super high end, you know, sort of high fashion people wear HOKAs. Like they're wearing HOKAs with their outfit because HOKA became a thing too, even though it's a consumer brand that anybody can buy, pretty much.
45:20 Speaker 01 Yeah. You know, I think a big idea of digital jewelry is going to become a real thing because it allows you to enhance the appearance of it. If it's done in a really subtle way, which I think is what you're trying to do, the people who are using it and expressing their energy in real moments, in real life, that is like the community you're building and that's the big idea.
45:38 Speaker 04 I love that. Thank you.
45:39 Speaker 00 Awesome. Ben Forrest, the brand's called Preserve for Humans. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.
45:43 Speaker 04 Thank you so much.
45:44 Speaker 01 Thanks, Ben.
45:45 Speaker 00 All right. Eric, now that you are a VC.
45:49 Speaker 01 Sounds so fancy, doesn't it?
45:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, fancy. Sounds very fancy. What now that you have all of this sort of knowledge about, you know, how to run businesses, how to start them. And I've asked you a version of this in the past, but I'm wondering if you have another piece of advice for yourself or like, you know, when you were starting out and also when you were talking to investors, you know, now that you're on the other side of the table, what would have been helpful for you to know that you know now?
46:18 Speaker 01 You know, I think a common theme in almost everybody we heard today is just confidence. Like, all these people are clearly accomplished and have that ability. But the hardest part is the mental game and that self-confidence to keep going when things get hard. And at the end of the day, you know, it's not the capital risk or the time risk. It's really your personal reputation risk and willing to put that out there. But it's the mind games. And I find too, as I've moved to the venture side, that's why I use the word coach. Like, so much of my job is to just almost play therapist and really help people stay confident and focused on the right things in this journey. And that's the part I wish I had more help with in those early years.
46:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, awesome. Eric, thanks so much for coming back onto the show.
47:02 Speaker 01 Always a pleasure, Guy.
47:03 Speaker 00 That's Eric Ryan. He's co-founder of Method, Ollie, Welly, and many more brands. By the way, if you haven't heard our Method episode with Eric and his co-founder Adam, you gotta go back and check it out. It's a great story. And here's one of my favorite moments from that episode. I read at one point, Eric, that to prove that this really was non-toxic, you actually drank it.
47:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I was in London. You know, I love the British press, they're so skeptical. And she said, is it, you know, safe enough to drink? I was like, sure. So we both took a shot at the toilet bowl cleaner.
47:35 Speaker 00 Okay.
47:36 Speaker 01 And then I immediately text Adam. Finally, he got back to me. I was like, hey, just drank the toilet bowl cleaner. I'm gonna be okay, right?
47:47 Speaker 00 Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Nora Gill with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.
48:31 Speaker 00 It was edited by Casey Herman. And our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, John Isabella, Kerry Thompson, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
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