Advice Line with Chieh Huang of Boxed

Today’s callers: Alec from California wonders if it’s time to bring production for his beef tallow skincare brand out of his kitchen to a co-manufacturer. Then, Jessica from California has a hit horse care product on her hands: is a major pet distributor a dream partnership or a brand-killer? And Eli in Minnesota is curious if he should tweak his signature anti-inflammatory coffee blend for bulk brewing or protect the original taste? Plus, Chieh reflects on his exit from Boxed and how his latest venture, Pelgo https://www.pelgo.com/, helps people through similarly significant career transitions. Thank you to the founders of Surfing Cow, Tail Cinch, and Makor Coffee for being a part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to the founding story of Boxed https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/c6e1ce0f-b867-4773-bf88-526fe1644d52/embed as told by Chieh on the show in 2021. This episode was produced by Rommel Wood with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ and on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 5:19Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on this show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Boxed co-founder Che Wang. Che, it's so great to have you back on the show.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me back, Guy. It's gonna be a great conversation.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  So you, Che, you were first on How I Built This in 2021. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. But basically, 2013, you launched Boxed, which was an online bulk retailer that you could get toilet paper and laundry detergent. And I think it was like- 500 of the most common household items, products, foods that people would buy. I remember you talking about, you know, packing up boxes and pallets of boxes coming to your parents' garage in New Jersey. And you guys sent out tens of millions of these boxes of groceries around the country. Since then, Boxed went public in 2021. And you ran into some difficult times after the pandemic ended.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, by 2023, you guys filed for bankruptcy, which I'm sure was extremely difficult. I mean, the story of building Boxed and the success you guys achieved was amazing. And I'm sure just what happened was so hard. I mean, I have a million questions for you, but first of all, what was it like for you just personally going through that? Because I can't imagine it was easy in any way.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been a wild, traumatic, I would say, decade since the founding of Boxed. But if we had a time machine and we traveled back to my parents' garage and we told that person that story about what will happen in the next 10 years of our journey and my life, I would say, sign me up now. Because the people I've met, the people we've helped, the things I've learned, I just wouldn't trade it for the world.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  I love that. You know, it's interesting because a lot of people write in and say, why don't you guys focus on companies that didn't make it, right? That failed. But of course, over, you know, 10 years of doing this show, we've had some companies that, you know, aren't around anymore. It happens.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  You know, there are a variety of reasons. I mean, in your case, there were probably macroeconomic, you know, challenges and competition from Sam's Club and Costco and other big box retailers. What, I mean, ultimately, in your view,

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Was there anything that you could have done or could have been done differently to have prevented bankruptcy?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  For sure. First and foremost, any decision, especially business decision in life is, could I have done better? And we probably need 10 hours of tape in order to go through all the things that I feel like I personally could have done better. But hindsight's 2020. With that said, the macro factors were really tough. So we were coming out of COVID. We were a new issuance of public stock in the New York Stock Exchange. We were unprofitable, small-ish cap. So we were a little bit above a billion in terms of market cap.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  And all an e-commerce COVID story. And so that was really tough. And as your stock price starts to go down, people get spooked, your vendors get spooked, and everyone gets spooked. And so we still had, what, almost $20 million cash left in the bank? But collectively, we decided the best kind of path forward was boxed, was to sell our software business. So BlackRock ended up buying that and owning that. And then the e-commerce business unfortunately was shut down, but has since been resurrected. But I have nothing to do with the boxed that has been resurrected today.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  So I know you presumably, you know, took some time off, but I think you did some interesting things afterwards to distance with the World Economic Forum, I think. And now you are starting up a new company. Tell me about it.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Someone I had known for a while, who's a recruiter, called and said, I've got the perfect job for you. And I said, I think you're full of it. And he's like, why? And I said, you're a recruiter. This is exactly what you say about every job. And he said, that's true, but this one is really compelling. And it ended up being at the World Economic Forum. So being able to get that. I guess that point of view on kind of macroeconomic conditions around the world and being able to meet interesting people from around the world, both in the private and public sectors, really helped me incubate this next idea, both from an idea perspective, but more importantly, from a co-founder perspective.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  So, I mean, tell me more about about how it works.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  So the company is called Pelgo, P E L G O. My co-founder in this company is a gentleman named Frank D'Souza, whom I met at the World Economic Forum. He co-founded and was a CEO of Cognizant, which is now like a Fortune 2 or 300 company, founded in the 90s. And so, basically, we had this thesis that there's going to be not only job destruction in America because of AI, but also job creation. And what we found was that there's so many folks incentivized on job destruction. And if that happens, who's taking care of the folks that are actually exiting their jobs? Meaning that who's helping them prepare their resumes? Who's helping them retrain?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  And who's helping them find their next job in an AI-enabled world? And of course, we came upon this industry called outplacement. But what we found is outplacement is, you know, costs several thousand dollars. And unless you're a certain level of executive, you generally don't get it. And so, we thought, well, why don't we create an outplacement service where it really is for everyone? It costs a fraction of what it does normally. And so, that's what we do. We help folks land their next job faster, in a more cost-effective way. And that's Pelgo.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  Well, congrats. I mean, it's exciting to be, I'm sure, now back in the trenches.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love every moment of it. I feel like my stress is up 100%, but my happiness is up 500%. So, it's a fair trade.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  All right, Che, are you ready to take our first call?

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  All right, let's bring on our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Che Wang, founder of Boxed. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  My name is Alec, and I am calling from Cardiff by the Sea, California. It's a small, little beach town here in North County, San Diego. And I started a small skincare brand called Surfing Cow. It's just simple, natural skincare for people who live outside. Also, Guy, Che, dude, I'm so, so stoked to talk to you guys right now.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  Well, we're stoked to have you on, man.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  This is crazy. I have to say this also, Guy. I've listened to this show since 2016.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  2016, I'm going to business school. I'm like, "Brick, dude, I want to start a business." And I, I'm so inspired by it.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Aw, thank you.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  All the entrepreneurs that I've listened to and kind of felt like I have a little bit of that and you're able to pull that story and I related to it. So, yeah, I just want to say thank you.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Thank you. That's why we do it. That's why we get people like Che on the show. And they all come back because they want to do that. They want to serve you guys and give you the best advice they can give you. And, and that's, it's all about, it's all about building. Uh, so, all right, Alex, so you are, so Surfing Cow, I'm assuming you're a surfer, right?

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Okay. And, and it's a skincare brand, so like moisturizer, tell me what you sell.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. So first product was the sun balm. So mineral sun protection. And then I launched a second product in August, which is a moisturizer. Very, very simple.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  All right. I know. So Surfing makes sense because you're a surfer, right? You live in, near San Diego. What's the cow part?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a great question. So tallow, beef tallow, which is a really, really great ingredient. Historically, for, for many years for skin, is one of the main ingredients.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  In both products.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  Okay. So the beef tallow, like basically, how do you turn beef tallow into, I guess it's soft, right? Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's just, it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a fat, a beef fat suet. And then you, you render it down, render it down, you can deodorize it.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  It's so similar to our own, uh, skin barrier that, that it's very bioavailable for your skin to absorb.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  Wow. Okay. So this is really interesting because this is very, it's certainly unusual, right? It's, it's, it's skin stuff and sunscreen, uh, made with beef tallow, which, interesting. We're living in a beef tallow moment, as you know, right? We're at a beef, everybody's talking about beef tallow this and frying and beef tallow and...

• 14:30Speaker 02

  It can't, my sister kind of turned me on to tallow, the ingredient. A few years prior, I was getting into skincare. And then I was using tallow. I'm like, dude, I grew up in San Clemente, small beach town. I never wore sunscreen.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Cause I hated the fit was greasy. I was like, dude, this stuff just is like, not great. Lot of it historically has chemicals in it. Mineral sunscreen is becoming super popular. So I could make one in the kitchen.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Tell me, uh, how, so you launched this, uh, when did you launch this?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I started in January and I was just like, I'm going to document every step. And then in April, I launched.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Is it last year of 2025?

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Cool. All right. Well, tell me a little bit about how the business is doing right now. You're, you, you are making it yourself or you, you have a, an outside manufacturer?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Last year it was just shy of 74,000. And then this year, we're projected to do, uh, like 220, 250 with the way January, February, March is, has, has gone so far. So pretty cool, but I'm still in my house. So I'm like, uh, I guess I can just keep, keep going.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  I love that. I'm looking at your website and you've got the, the, you break down how much it costs you to make each unit. So, uh, which is amazing. Obviously you sell it for more than what it costs because you got to make a profit, but, uh, that's really cool. So, all right. So you are on track to do about $200,000 this year in sales? You think?

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, this month, just in March has been like, you know, it went from like three orders or five orders to like, it's like 20, 25 a day.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  And, and all social media marketing or social media ads? Is that how you're doing it? How you're reaching people?

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Wow. Awesome. Okay. Before we, we, we dive in further, tell us what your question is for us.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  My question is, I want you guys to close your eyes here for a second.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Really? If you were in my shoes, obviously I've started this business. I'm, I'm a solopreneur, if you will, and there's a lot of people saying, maybe do this, do this, do this. It's a growing skincare brand. I'm still making, doing everything at home. I'm packing the orders. I'm Che, I'm writing the names on the thank you cards. I'm signing them. What levers would you guys pull? What would you be focused on right now for this business to ensure that it's?

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Grows healthy and I don't lose the soul that people have fallen in love with.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Hmm. Okay. Interesting. What would you do to make it grow? Okay, I have some thoughts. But Che, thoughts, questions for Alec?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  This is really interesting, Guy. I'm really glad you invited me because learning about these companies is fascinating. And Alec, I just closed my eyes and I couldn't help but feel jealousy that you're next to a beach and I'm here freezing in New Jersey. But, but man, I mean, you've, it seems like you're starting to catch lightning in a bottle. I even, when Guy kind of like clarified the revenue number, I was like, wait, like, can I, can you say that again? And you just started? That is pretty wild. And I'm just wondering what happens if literally 3,000 orders comes your way tomorrow.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  I feel like your neighbors are gonna be really angry and you're gonna be usurping their kitchens.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  All my friends make fun of me still because they'll call me. They're like, are you in, are you in Surfing Cow HQ? Which is just my house, you know? And they're like, are you cooking? I call it, you know, cooking because I make everything myself.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  So my initial reaction is like, geez, your number one job right now is to make sure this thing can scale. So the wheels don't fall off in the coming months. If your orders are late, if they're substandard, that's an Alec problem. That's a Surfing Cow problem. That's not a customer problem. They don't want to know that, oh, so many other folks like this brand that I can't get it anymore. Or it takes two weeks to get it. Getting the working capital to actually potentially begin professional manufacturing of this product. That's something you're gonna have to figure out and figure out pretty quickly.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think, I, I agree. You can't make this yourself for, in the long term. Especially if you're looking at trying to hit 200 grand in sales this year. That's just not possible. And I'm sure you're hiring some people part-time to help you, you know, fill jars and label them and ship them out. But it's just not sustainable. I mean, you've gotta really find somebody who can make them for you. And what you want to focus on right now is locking down the formula. Now, you may have already done that. But if you haven't, you really wanna finalize your exact formulation. Because when you go and work with the co-manufacture, you know, small changes cost money. And so you wanna really have it locked down as close as possible to what it should be. It means you need to be testing, and maybe you've already done some of this,

• 19:10Speaker 00

  shelf life, consistency, how does it affect, you know, heat? If you stick it on a counter in a warm house, does it turn into, you know, coconut oil liquefies, right? Yeah. You wanna kind of look at all of those things. And then you wanna find a small to mid-size contract manufacturer. Now, you're very lucky, you are in California. There are probably half a dozen of these places in California and Utah and other states that are FDA-registered, that specialize in natural products, that have worked with early-stage brands like yours. And so you really wanna start focusing on finding that partner to make your formula to the exact specifications. Now, in terms of growing the brand in other ways,

• 19:55Speaker 00

  I think you also have this natural opportunity. It's surfing cow, you're a surfer. There's a lot of interest and enthusiasm around natural products, especially animal products. You're not gonna get vegans using this, of course. But that's a small percentage of the population. But I do think you have an opportunity to go and see if you can do collaborations with some other San Diego-based brands, like Viori. You know, huge brand, been on the show before. Reef, see if they might be open. I mean, they're bigger brands, but see if they might be open to doing something with you. And then, you know, down the road, you wanna start to look at Whole Foods, right? Because Whole Foods loves local products.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  But I wouldn't jump into huge orders right away. I would really start with pilot runs, working with a co-man. But that, to me...

• 20:45Speaker 02

  And I think agreeing with Che here, that's gotta be your priority.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, Alec, I've literally been in your shoes before. And so I'm getting PTSD because you're at that cusp of like, this thing really beginning to kind of be a thing. Harkening back to my box days, we did not scale early enough from that point. And so we were still fulfilling out of my mom's house and we had to like, undrill her garage door. And there were 40 foot trucks coming down, you know, our residential street. So I think, yeah, I mean, getting someone to manufacture this. And the thing is, like, every single successful consumer brand that Guy has had on the show has been in your stage and has had a co-man bet on them.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  And given this website that I'm looking at and how you're this radical transparency ethos that you espouse, it doesn't shock me that people are giving it a try. I mean, you even put up your actual fixed.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's cost.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like your fixed cost, it's like, how much LLC filing has cost you? That's, it's pretty wild, man. You're like the Bridgewater associates of the beach. It's wild.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  I just thought it'd be a cool idea when I started. I'm like, you know, like, I've never, I've always had these questions of starting a business and obviously this podcast has been a huge resource, but the manufacturing piece, I guess I've been a little apprehensive because

• 22:17Speaker 02

  it's like, on one side of the coin, I feel like, yeah, I need to really just marry this business and maybe that does mean taking on outside capital and going to, Guy, you had mentioned FDA regulated facilities. Sunscreen is regulated as what they call an OTC drug. So it's, it could be, if I don't white label a formula, which I wouldn't, this would be like my own formula, you know, that could be upwards of $50,000 to $80,000 per SKU. It's a nine to 12 month process. And that's not that I'm like afraid of doing it, but I guess what I'm saying is I feel like you guys are giving me the maybe validation of like, dude, this thing has legs, go for it. Cause that's sort of my, I haven't taken

• 23:01Speaker 02

  any money since I've done this. I've tried to just fund it all myself. And I would love to continue to do that. But I guess the question is if it sounds like if I can't continue to just do it myself. It's like, do I just go for it and find manufacturing if that means taking on outside investment? Just so be it.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  I feel very strongly here, guys. So hopefully it's okay if I jump in. So in everyone I've ever talked to at your stage has asked the same question you're asking us and as well as you're asking yourself. I, you know, I'm only sharing my opinion. And for every one of my opinions, you'll probably find a counterpoint. I think it's okay to take outside capital because most businesses, the end result and the quote unquote end result for the founder, most businesses are quite binary. Like meaning that this is going to be really big. Like we're going to see Surfing Cow and Sephora and Whole Foods and everywhere over the next five, 10 years, or we're going to see it nowhere.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  And actually, when you think about the dilution that you'll take from outside capital, you know, if this becomes a billion dollar business, Alec, I think you're not going to find a very sympathetic Jay when you say, oh, my gosh, but I had to sell 15% of a billion dollar business. I'm like, well, Alec, here's a hundred dollar bill. Draw your eye, you know, because it's still so big and it'd be so life changing. But you know what you don't want to have happen is that it could have been a billion dollar business, but you didn't want to give up 15% of the company. So it's a zero dollar business today. So that's why, you know, I always say, don't worry too much about it. Focus on making this a really big business and all those other concerns are tertiary.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  I would alter slightly and say, if you do raise money, you want to, and I think, you know, you're not going to get institutional capital now. You're too small, but you want to get small dollar amounts from people you know. So I wouldn't raise, really, I would not raise more than $50,000 at most. And I would try to do it, you know, with small checks from people that you, you know, that you know, that believe in this, you know, people who might be able to throw in a thousand bucks. I think you want to be really conservative about that because. You know, at the end of the day, you, in order to really scale, you're going to have to have many, many, many more SKUs, right?

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Right now, you've got just a few and you're going to want to expand out around this sort of idea. And it may, you know, it, it may naturally evolve into something that isn't just beef tallow, but it might be, you know, you might decide to have a vegan option with, you know, avocado oil or something. You know what I mean? Who knows? The core here, the foundation here, isn't the cow part, it's the surfing part. That's who you are. That's what this is. It's about, it's about a lifestyle. I mean, you know, you're going to need to evolve and grow and build out and create more products. But I do think that if you want to go for some cash to get this, these first production runs in,

• 26:06Speaker 00

  that, that would be my recommendation.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Okay, sorry. One, one more, I might never get this opportunity. So I have, I have to ask it. But Guy, you end every podcast and you say, what do you attribute to hard work? And what do you attribute to luck? And everyone in these CPG brand spaces, when they talk about co-man, they talk about that sort of being this magic sauce. That said, you guys are both talking about finding a co-man. And I have spoken with a few, but the question is, is there something that I'm missing here? Are there certain questions? It is a gut feeling or is it just a stroke of luck? And someone's going to be like, yeah, like I heard you on a podcast or I saw your video and like, we want to help you. Or is it just pick up the phone and just be like, I'm going to dedicate a month to just finding the right one?

• 26:49Speaker 00

  It's, uh, it's, it's both. You know, if, if it's somebody who's like, I really want to work with you. That's a great sign, but they may not have the capacity to do it in the way that you need them to do it. I mean, really, you want to visit these places and you want to talk to people. Uh, part of it is instinct and you will make mistakes, which is why you, you know, we've had, we've had brands on the show that work with the same co-man from the very, very beginning to this day. And others that changed for a variety of reasons. So you really want to test the waters. You're dating right now. You're not asking anyone to marry you. And I think that's how you have to approach any relationship you enter into. And, you know, the, the answer will come in the result that you see.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  And Alec, I'm guessing, just given what I've heard,

• 27:38Speaker 01

  you know, I think you're going to have your own manufactured luck based upon your energy and based upon the fact that you've cooked 200 grand worth of beef tallow, sun products in your own kitchen. I get the feeling you're a hustler out there and you're going to find some luck if you keep up that hard work.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  I appreciate it. I actually don't mind it, but I agree with you guys. I need to get out of the kitchen.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Get out of the kitchen, man. Alec, the brand is called Surfing Cow. Thanks so much for calling in, man. Good luck.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Appreciate you guys.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Thank you. Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 32:05Speaker 00

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Che Wang, co-founder of Boxed. And Che, you ready for our next call?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  I am ready. I couldn't be more ready.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Che Wang, founder of Boxed. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  Hi, Che. Hi, Guy. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. My name is Jessica Dubin, and I'm calling from Indio, California. And I'm the founder of Tail Cinch, which is an equine products brand focused on innovative and sustainable tail care and other essentials for horses.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Awesome. Welcome, Jessica. So Indio, not too far from like Palm Springs, Coachella area, right?

• 32:48Speaker 03

  Yes, it's right. I'm right across the street from the Music Festival.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. Okay, wow. There you go. Tell me about Tail Cinch. What is it?

• 32:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, so my hero product are reusable tail ties that I made for polo ponies because I'm myself, I'm a polo player. And when horses are galloping, they naturally swish their tails. So you want to tie them up to get them out of the way for safety reasons and obviously to keep the flow of the game going. It can be very dangerous if a mallet gets stuck in a horse tail. So the status quo is electrical tape, which I, ever since I started with polo, I've found to be very wasteful. A lot of people just throw it on the ground after the game. They don't pick up after themselves. And it just drove me crazy. So I thought there had to be a better way to do this that maybe was reusable and also more

• 33:38Speaker 03

  attractive than vinyl electrical tape. So I created these reusable tail ties.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  And they're Velcro?

• 33:46Speaker 03

  They're Velcro, and they have faux leather strip on the outside for style. And then they have silicone grips on the inside so that they stay in place and don't slide down.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Okay, I love this because this is super niche. I mean, not to, I mean, I mean in the best of ways, right? It's polo is a game that a tiny fraction of people thoroughly play, but probably a necessary thing for it. So just to clarify, horses' tails are tied with electrical tape? Like, do they put it directly on the tail of the horse?

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  That must be painful to remove it.

• 34:18Speaker 03

  It can be, yes, especially on the inside where the where the skin is exposed. So the top of the tail has hair and the bottom is more just skin. And it's not great. And But yeah, it's interesting because even though I started this with polo and polo ponies, it turns out that a wide variety of horse owners and equine practitioners have a use case for tying up tails. And so it just grew out of there. So now I've got horse owners of all kinds using my products. So that's

• 34:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so, okay, this is really interesting. I have a lot of questions for you, but before we get to Che, tell me a little bit about your business. What are you guys doing in sales right now?

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I do between 70,000 to 80,000 a year in revenue. And I've been in business for four years. You know, I pretty much hit that number every year, you know, but I'm not really growing from that. And I think that sort of brings me to my main problem right now.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  Please. Yeah. So tell us your question.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I've seen a lot of traction with paid social and influencer outreach, but both can be expensive and difficult to scale on a limited budget. So I'm wondering, you know, do you think that getting my products on platforms where horse owners are already shopping like Chewy or Valley Vet is a worthy brand awareness play, not just a revenue play, even if the margins are super thin because my product price point isn't that high?

• 35:45Speaker 00

  All right. Great. Great question for Che because he knows that world very well. Che, I want to bring you in. First of all, before we answer Jessica's questions, any questions that you might have or thoughts?

• 35:55Speaker 01

  My question, a clarifying question that I had was, it seems like you have been, you know, I'm looking at the website now, and it seems like you are expanding outside of just the tail cinch. How has that gone? Because that will also kind of influence the answer I wanted to give you.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's gone really well. And I've gotten great feedback from my expansion products. And I've sort of adopted this

• 36:25Speaker 03

  Direction of trying to make what's out there better because there's not a lot of innovation in horse products, you know, the people sort of remake the same thing over and over again. The brands just like stick to what they know and there's there's flaws clearly because I've seen customers come to me and ask if I can fix them. So the issue is that, you know, with so many products and and a limited budget, how do you market each one? Do I pour it all into the hero product and have people coming in for that, you know, spreading my marketing budget across all the products? That's where the challenge is because I I still hit the same numbers even though I have more products.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  That's fair. And so with that said, my if if it was just the TLDR answer would be yes, I do think it is worth it to go on those platforms. You'll know better than we will in terms of which particular ones, but they could be excellent almost if you view it as in zero kind of cost of acquisition kind of ways of marketing. And so as long as you're not losing money and as long as, you know, data will show whether you're cannibalizing your customers or not, it can be an excellent way to get the brand out there, especially if you have other products. The reason why I asked the question before is that if tail cinch is your only product and the only product that's doing well, then it's probably will start to really cannibalize

• 37:48Speaker 01

  your base business and just erode your margins. But if you can get them to say, well, you know what? This tail cinch thing is pretty cool. What else do they have? And let me go directly to the website. I think that could be a very powerful tool. What you have to actually really worry about is not so much the erosion in margin, but also the working capital component of it. And so retailers, especially big ones, are going to expect a really long payment cycles. And so even though you sell that tail cinch, you might not get paid for it for half a year. And I've definitely seen kind of entrepreneurs get bitten by that. And if you then have to factor that payment, AKA kind of finance that payment so you get the money early so you can continue to produce.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  What also happens is the factoring companies will also take a cut. And so your thin margins just became even thinner. So definitely that true cost of listing that product. That's an exercise you should definitely do.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. I'm looking at your products, I'm thinking, wow, this is, now you're talking about a much bigger total addressable market. You're talking about fly protection for ankles and for a horse's face and, you know, different kinds of products that aren't just for polo players. And that to me is really interesting. Is, what is the best selling product that you have right now?

• 39:05Speaker 03

  Well, it's still the tailties. You know, they definitely do at least 50% of the sales come from the tailties. People love them. I have a lot of repeat customers that come back and buy them again. They buy them in all the, you know, I have 21 different colors, so I have another style of them. So yeah, those are still the hero, but yeah.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, to answer your question, I agree that Chewy is worth going on to. It can help with awareness, but ultimately you want to change behavior and that happens at competitions, at, through trainers and, you know, at the barn or wherever else that, you know, people are around horses. And something you said earlier really struck me, which is there hasn't been a lot of innovation in the things that people buy for their horses. So I would imagine that most horse owners have to buy certain things. Like most dog owners buy balls so their dog can play fetch or, you know, they buy water bowls that they can carry with them on hikes. It seems like, based on what you're saying, there's an opportunity to really innovate

• 40:10Speaker 00

  in these kind of stale products that people have been buying for decades that haven't really, no one's really disrupted or changed.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  You also, sorry, I, to jump in here, you brought up a really great point about dog owners and as well as horse riders, like meaning that I wonder what the data is on the overlap. But I would bet that if you own a horse, there's a very high likelihood that you own other pets at home. And so targeting that audience via Chewy and some of the pet specialty platforms might not be the worst idea in the world to see where that overlap is. That could be, that was quite intriguing.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's great, great advice. It's a great, great point. And there is a large overlap between horse owning and dog owning. It's kind of, they go hand in hand. So, and even cats too, because barn cats. So there's a way to connect to them there.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Awesome, awesome idea. The brand is called Tail Cinch. Good luck. Thanks again for calling.

• 41:15Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having me. Take care.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, horses are, it's like a thing that if you are a horse lover rider, like it's, it's a huge part of your life.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it's one of those things that unless you're really into it, you would never go after it in terms of a market. And it might be sneaky big in terms of the ability for them to generate profits because it's such a niche and defensible market.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  I just did a quick, quick search. Apparently, the total addressable market for just horse products, right, just gear and apparel, is $20 billion.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  And that's not nothing. I mean, that's significant. You get, you know, 5% of that, you've got a big business. So.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  And the thing that I love about it is that you get that audience, I'm going to guess, out of, out of that audience, probably nine, exactly 99.9% of that audience is not cost-conscious.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  And that is a market you really want.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly. I mean, it's the same for pet owners. Yeah, I mean, when it comes to your pet, like for most of us, it's, it's kind of crazy how money is no object, right? When it comes to our humans in our life. But the pets, it's like, yep, whatever they need.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  I bet even if money were an object, Guy, if times got tough in the Raz family, I'm sure you're cutting out your daily coffee run rather than any pet food. So that's, that's my lived experience as well.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  Yep. All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Che Wang, co-founder of Boxed. And let's bring in our next caller.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  My name is Eli Mash. I am a co-founder of a coffee brand called Makor Coffee. M-A-K-O-R. We are an organic coffee brand and what we specialize in is helping with chronic inflammation. So our main product is 93% coffee and then we have a blend of organic cacao and organic spices that people can get every day within their blend.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Nice. Well, thanks for calling in, Eli. So it's coffee and you mix it with herbs and spices that are anti-inflammatory. So you mentioned cacao. What else do you put in there?

• 43:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, we mix it with a few other ones. So we have organic turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon, chaga mushroom, cayenne pepper, and then some ginger.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  I love that. And I'd love that you said Ceylon cinnamon because I know this, Saigon cinnamon from Vietnam doesn't have the same anti-inflammatory effects as the Ceylon cinnamon.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. We definitely, when we were doing this blend, I mean, when I started this, I had put turmeric in my coffee for like a decade.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  And nobody really enjoyed tasting it but me.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's bitter.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  So I was looking for some other ones that could taste well but also have other properties.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  No, it's really interesting because I'm super into this stuff. I mean, when I get a cold, I like, I grate some fresh turmeric and ginger and garlic and put in the cayenne pepper, black pepper, lemon juice, honey, and hot water, and it knocks it out every time, almost every time. If I do it right when it's starting. A really cool idea. How did you, how'd you come up with it?

• 44:51Speaker 04

  So like I said, I had been putting turmeric in my coffee for quite some time. My parents are holistic folks. I grew up in a, in a family of people who really thought of whole food as nutrition. So I had thought, hey, this is something I do every day. How else can people use spices they don't get normally? And how can they actually do it in a way they're not going to forget about? We forget about your multivitamins, you forget about other things. What can we do to help people every single day in something they won't forget about? And coffee's a good way.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  I love this idea. It's really cool. So you start, and is this your full-time job now? Is this what you're focused on?

• 45:24Speaker 04

  Oh, I wish. I, I have, I have three kids. I have three little girls in my family. So as we're, as we're raising them and as I'm building the business, I have a, I have a full-time job in, in software sales as well. So this is really nights, weekends, and we have a co-manufacture that can do all the activities that, you know, I don't have time to do right now.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  And you're selling on your website entirely right now, right?

• 45:44Speaker 04

  So actually, we've been selling on a website for a little over a year now. And we are in a local, a local store in Minneapolis with 11 stores. And we recently got into another one with 30 stores. So we'll be in about 40 doors by the end, by middle of this year.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  Hmm. Wow. Nice. And, and I'm looking at your bag. Is it clear? Does it make it clear right up front what this is and why this is different?

• 46:05Speaker 04

  You know, we could do a better job of that, I think. And we have the ingredients, think of like the RX bar, right? We have the ingredients all on the front.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  On our website, we do, you know, a much better job. But that is one of the challenges, definitely, when you're on the retail shelf, explaining things quickly.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  And how are you doing in sales?

• 46:20Speaker 04

  So I, I think we're, you know, we're doing pretty well. So we, we run a subscription business and a, you know, and, and a purchase, you know, one-time business. We have about 300 people who subscribe every month. This year, we're on track to do between 200 and $300,000, with 95% of it being online.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Okay. And what is your question for us? What's your, what's your challenge?

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Oh, so yeah, I have many, I think. But the, the question I have for you guys and is around, you know, when we have this blend, what happens with these spices, they're finer ingredients, right? So when people are going in and they're brewing the coffee, you know, like a cow can even melt a little bit. And what it does is it, it tends to brew slower. So when you get to like that six cups, if you don't, you know, if you're not careful with the right filters, it can overflow. And if it overflows, people never come back.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  Right? So we're trying to balance this really healthy coffee and having it with enough ingredients that actually helps and adds benefits, at the same time, being able to have this more of a general population where you don't need to think about that at all.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  So it doesn't, it's designed to be brewed how, how?

• 47:24Speaker 04

  You can brew it as any, as a normal coffee, you know, French press, Keurig, Chemex, and a regular coffee maker. But when you do have the regular coffee maker, if you get above six cups, it can overflow.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  Alright.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  If you're not using the right, the right.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  Alright, I want to bring Che in. Che, interesting, I don't, are you a coffee drinker?

• 47:42Speaker 01

  I, I am. I've dialed it back a little bit, but I, I like this because this gives me an excuse to drink more.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  For sure. Yeah.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, um, to your exact question, it reminds me, I'm not saying this is the right answer, but it reminds me of an investor of ours that asked me, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? And you know that in order for the blend to be to your standard, Eli, you know, it needs to be a certain degree of the blend. But actually for it to have big uses like six plus cups, well, hello, offices, that you might need to modify kind of the formula a little bit. That is a guttural decision that you'll have to make yourself, that you'll have to live with as an entrepreneur and as kind of the,

• 48:35Speaker 01

  as, as the parent of this brand. This is basically your fourth child, Eli. But from my opinion, you probably could modify it for that kind of bigger brew, because I see coffee offices being big, a big distribution point for this product. The reason why I say that is I used to always laugh like when we had like people drinking Gatorade or like, you know, like vitamin water in the office. I'm like, oh, wow, it's a real workout answering these emails. You know, you better hydrate. But the reality is like, we're all in the office and we want to do a little bit of good to our bodies. So I can see like the button in front of you saying, do you want the regular coffee or the anti-inflammatory one? I could see a lot of people wishing that other button.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  So that's why I think it could be a big distribution point that would get them to then say, in my home, I quite like that coffee brand. What was it called again? Maybe I'll sign up for my house as well.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  You know, I have a question for you about the, because it sounds like, you know, you want to scale up. But part of the challenge is, is that if people brew it and it just overflows, they're not going to go back to it. So a couple of questions, right? Coffee, you extract the flavor based on the, in part based on the grind, right? If it's super fine, you're getting espresso, if it's, if it's a grittier grind, if a less fine grind, it's, you know, it's a drip machine, whatever it might be, or a percolator. Can you, I'm assuming that with the other ingredients, right? The turmeric and the cinnamon, the ginger, it's powderized. And so that also helps with the extraction. But is there a way to like have tiny grinds, like freeze dried grinds that are slightly bigger?

• 50:16Speaker 00

  That still, still bring out that same extraction of nutrients that, you know, you want people to ingest?

• 50:25Speaker 04

  It's a really good question. We've, we've, you know, when we look at suppliers that have all the certifications we need, we haven't been able to find that yet at our size and scale. We'd have to do all that grinding ourselves, which is, you know, it takes a lot of time. It's definitely a conversation though to be had and be thought through for sure.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  I mean, if you grind cinnamon sticks to slightly bigger pieces, does it extract the same way? Do you get the same flavor?

• 50:49Speaker 04

  You will get less of it.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  It seems like that's quite a challenge, but with challenges come sustainable modes. If you're able to have that proprietary grind, that could be really interesting because anyone who's going to copy this, and there will be people that copy this, will have to figure out and walk through the same difficult steps that you'll walk through.

• 51:08Speaker 04

  Oh, you know, it's, it's, it is interesting, right? Because you can, you know, to your guys' point, there's a lot of different thoughts and things I'm thinking about all the time. And then it's also around storytelling, right? And maybe the, the, the bug is actually a feature too. Now, Jay, to your point, it can't go in offices that way unless you're using a French press or a Keurig or whatnot. But how much do you want to keep your community, right? And grow with that feature you have versus, to your point, changing. I think you've, you've answered the question several ways, but that's how I think through this.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know, I, I wonder whether you can try something and, and you might be doing it. I don't see it on the package, but literally just say best brewed in a French press.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  You know, I know most people don't, you know, they probably use drip machines, but while you're trying to formulate something that would, because I, down the road, you want this to be in K cups, right?

• 52:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  And so, and that's a technology challenge, which I think is probably a challenge you will figure out how to solve, whether it's freeze dried, using freeze dried ginger and turmeric that you can then grind to the same, you know, size as the coffee, you know, that enable the same extraction or whatever it is. But in the meantime, I wonder if it, if, if you do something like that, you know, best brewed in a French press or pour over.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Could it be different formats to that point? Like, meaning that a different formulation for larger coffee machines, like drip coffee machines? And you, it seems like you're very transparent with the ingredients as well. So it's like, you know, the real hardcore users that are like, Give me all the anti-inflammation I can get. Well, we can't really offer that experience in a drip machine. And those folks will naturally, because they're hardcore about it, they will naturally gravitate towards the pour-over or the other kind of ways of baking that coffee. You know, that could be an avenue to explore.

• 53:00Speaker 04

  Okay, I actually don't know why I haven't thought about that. It's a really good idea.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Well, that's why you're here, Eli. That's why.

• 53:06Speaker 04

  When you think about the office space itself, you're right, you know, it does work in a drip machine up to four or five cups, which is fine for most, right? But if you go to the office, you need 30 cups, right? And in that case, you're right, maybe it is just a less potent one that allows it to go through. That's a very interesting point.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  And you know what, like, while we're riffing here, like, office coffee is like a knife fight of an industry. Everyone wants to sell coffee to offices because they become like annuities. Like, you know, once you're in there, everyone's happy, the fastest way for team members to burn down the office is to say, we're out of coffee, or the coffee machine is broken. So, once you're in there, you're in there, and the office manager does not want to mess with it. And so, I wonder, there might be some really fast, scalable ways for you to get real distribution through that channel. Because if you go to some of these bigger ones, and you're like, hey, here's an innovation that we think will resonate with your offices, they might say, great, because we're done with just selling regular coffee. Like, we're looking for innovation in coffee.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Do you know, you know what, just, I just had a thought. We did an episode recently on Justin's Nut Butter, which became a, you know, sold to Hormel for almost $300 million. And, and that was a peanut butter brand. And it wasn't, nothing was happening. It wasn't popping off the shelves. It, you know, it was, it was another peanut butter brand, and people weren't noticing it. What changed, the innovation that, that really helped that brand blow up was, do you know what I'm talking about?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  I know, I think I know what you're talking about, Guy.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  The pouches.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly.

• 54:34Speaker 00

  They put peanut butter in a single-use pouch where you could bring on a bike ride or a hike. And that is what completely turned that brand around. I'm, I'm looking at this product, I'm thinking, well, could you do something in addition to what you're making?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  The beans, the whole beans in the grind, like a single-serve, freeze-dried coffee pack that also has, you know, let's say, 10% of it is the freeze-dried herbs and spices in there, that is an instant version of this, a single-use, instant version of this for people to take on the go, camping, etc. See if people respond to that. It's just an idea, but I'm just thinking about Justin's Nut Butter and the pouches.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Guys, sorry, I was smiling the entire time you were talking about Justin's because I remember being in line at Whole Foods and seeing pouched peanut butter. I'm like, okay, consumer packaged goods has really jumped the shark.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Who has thought, you know, but like months later, I was on a hike at a retreat and I was starving and someone had these pouches. I was like, okay, give me one of those pouches. Give me one of those pouches.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is brilliant.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  It's protein in a pouch.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  And so it doesn't shock me.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  In the pouch, yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 55:36Speaker 04

  It's a very good way to trial things as well.

• 55:38Speaker 00

  It's a good way to trial things to let people taste the, you know, this, and it's anti-inflammatory and so, anyway, just some thoughts. It's very cool. I think you have an opportunity to, I mean, you know, to scale this, you got to make it frictionless and if you can figure it out, which I think you could, that could be a game changer.

• 55:55Speaker 04

  Appreciate that.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Eli, if I'm walking through Whole Foods and I see pouches of your coffee, I'll know where you got the idea.

• 56:00Speaker 00

  You're gonna buy it. You're gonna buy thousands of them.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  We'll buy it.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  And we'll expect a commission check for this idea, Eli.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  Oh, you guys are on the list. You're on the list of commission check.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  Lifetime supply of my core coffee. Eli, thanks so much for calling in. My core coffee. Good luck.

• 56:15Speaker 04

  Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate your time.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Thank you. Che, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question that I ask all of our guests who come back on the show, which is-

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Here we go.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  If you could take all the things that you've learned now as a super experienced entrepreneur, you've been through highs and lows and you've scaled a company to unimaginable heights, and you go back to, you know, to you when you started out, you know, in 2013 and say, hey, Che, here's what you need to know, what would you say?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  I would tell myself that it's a life you chose to be an entrepreneur and the reward is the journey. And I know that sounds a bit cliche, but time and time and again, you know, what we experience today, Guy, it's every entrepreneur experiences the same thing.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  It's problem after problem. If we had like another two hours, these folks today could have brought on another 20 challenges that they had this morning. And it gets tough, it gets lonely, it gets stressful. But as I've walked the path for now almost two decades, I enjoy it. I think you're gonna find me hopefully back on the show when I'm 75 with a new company, you know, because I think solving problems and my thing is affecting people in a good way and helping people in a good way as well.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  So if we took that time machine, I would say, listen, you're gonna have ups, you're gonna have downs, but enjoy the ride because it's gonna be worth it. And I genuinely feel that way today.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  That's great advice. That's Box co-founder Che Wang. Che, thanks so much for joining me today.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Thanks, Guy.

• 57:54Speaker 00

  And by the way, if you haven't heard Che's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the show notes. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  I remember I was driving home from a meeting in New York and one of the folks that quit his six-figure paying job to join the dream and sit in my garage called and said, dude, I refreshed the page over and over. It's not broken. We got zero orders today.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  This dropped down to zero two days in a row. And he was like, dude, I risked my livelihood to do this. Are you sure this is still gonna work?

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Rommel Wood with music composed

• 59:10Speaker 00

  by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Chris Messini, Kerry Thompson, Catherine Seifer, Neva Grant, Nora Gill, and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.