Why You're Smarter Than You Think

From the time we're schoolchildren, we're ranked and sorted based on how smart we are. But what if our assumptions about intelligence limit our potential? This week, we revisit a favorite 2022 conversation with cognitive scientist Scott Barry Kaufman, who proposes a more expansive notion of what it means to be "smart." Then, in the latest installment of Your Questions Answered, psychologist James Cordova answers listener questions on accepting our romantic partners as they are.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 0:05Shankar Vedantam?

  Many of us know what it feels like to be overlooked. The school we would love to study at doesn't love us back. We get passed over for a job or a promotion. When we are asked to try our hand at something, we're told no.

• 0:22Shankar Vedantam?

  Now, sometimes rejection might be a true reflection of our abilities. We can't run fast enough to make the team or remember all the facts needed to get through medical school.

• 0:34Shankar Vedantam?

  There are other times, however, when rejection is not about our limitations. It's that other people see us as limited.

• 0:43Shankar Vedantam?

  Our concerns over how we are judged are often most acute, most charged, when it comes to the topic of intelligence. Most of us don't just want to be smart. We want to be seen as smart.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  I just remember being taunted and being told things like, "Oh, you're too stupid to go on the fourth grade. You idiot," that sort of thing. But yeah, it was really painful.

• 1:10Shankar Vedantam?

  This week on Hidden Brain, many of us have knee-jerk conclusions about what intelligence is and how it can be measured. We think we know what intelligence is. But do we really?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  It almost instantly seduced me into loving the science of IQ and intelligence. And I forgot that I was supposed to be on this vendetta. I forgot.

• 1:43Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from Farmers Insurance. At Farmers, they believe insurance should be in terms you can understand. Like with coverage on a page, you get a clear view of what is and isn't covered in your policy in plain, simple language, so you're not left with any surprises. Does your insurance do that? Check them out at farmers.com, underwritten by Farmers Truck or Fire Insurance Exchanges or Affiliates. Products not available in every state.

• 2:14Speaker 02

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• 2:44Shankar Vedantam?

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• 3:17Shankar Vedantam?

  In the first three years of his life, Scott Barry Kaufman suffered from a number of ear infections.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  It made it very hard for me to process auditory input in real time. And so I was a couple milliseconds behind everyone else. I would hear things and then I would have to, in my head, cognitively process it.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Like, listen to it over again while everyone else was already on to the next thing.

• 3:44Shankar Vedantam?

  The conclusion that many people drew? Scott wasn't very bright.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  You know, it's very easy to look at someone and and just judge them as dumb because they're slower than someone else. And that that sort of processing speed issue is one that I confronted first and foremost as a kid.

• 4:06Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott's teachers didn't know what to make of him. He was often very creative, but he didn't seem to be able to keep up with his peers. Things came to a head in the third grade.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  And I believe the official diagnosis was I was too immature to go on to fourth grade. And I remember thinking to myself, my gosh, I must be really immature. I'm too immature to go to fourth grade. That's really bad.

• 4:36Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott has seen the reports his teachers wrote about him when he was a kid. They say the problem was about more than academics.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  They say things like, he's off to the side often, like socially isolated. He seems to be in his own world.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  I guess they viewed all that as some form of learning disability, you know, that I sort of was off on my own planet over there.

• 4:59Shankar Vedantam?

  He quickly discovered that when you repeat a grade, the kids around you start to look at you differently.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  It really amplified this feeling I already had of that I was different. I remember even, you know, from first to third grade, I felt like a huge outsider from the other kids. But then making me repeat third grade and then having all my friends go on, and they kept me there, made me like, it amplified it to a very, very large degree. I remember feeling really, really low self-esteem. And I remember just being very, very confused because I didn't actually feel like there was anything wrong with me.

• 5:41Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott has a specific memory from that additional year he spent in third grade. A group of kids formed a circle around him in the bathroom.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  If you took me back to Penland Elementary School, and you're like, "Show me the bathroom, show me the sink." That you were pushed, your face was pushed into the sink, and the water was running, I could point you directly to it. And I just remember being taunted and being, you know, told things like, "Oh, you're too stupid to go on to fourth grade. You idiot," like that sort of thing. But yeah, it was really, it was really painful.

• 6:15Shankar Vedantam?

  When Scott was seven and again at 11, school administrators made him take IQ tests so they could figure out next steps for him. One test stands out in his memory like a scene from a movie.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  I remember driving up this very windy road to get there. Somehow seems fitting. Very, very long, long windy road. I remember the road. I remember I was with my mom. Remember the building. So as I'm there and I'm taking this IQ testing session, I remember second guessing all my answers. I remember desperately wanting to show him I was smart. And that report, his observations are things like Scott obviously wanted to do well and he, uh, he second guessed his choices a lot. My estimation is that he is very, very bright, but gets in his own way because of his self doubt.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  All I knew from that meeting is that I was shipped off to a whole school for kids with learning disabilities. I was taken away from my public school. So that's all I knew. There was like, I know I took this test. I know it was a terrifying experience and then I know I was shipped off, taken away from all my friends. So that was like pretty traumatic.

• 7:32Shankar Vedantam?

  From the outside, it might seem like Scott was privileged. His family had the resources for him to go to a school that would meet his needs. But as a kid, Scott felt the adults in his life were sending him a clear message.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  I'm really different. Like I am, oh my, okay, we'll go even further. I'm a freak.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Like I'm a freak. Like I am, like something's really wrong with me.

• 8:04Shankar Vedantam?

  The outcome of Scott's IQ test was the opposite of what he had secretly hoped for. His dream was that he would do so well that the psychologist would recommend he move to a prestigious school near his Philadelphia home. It was called the Haverford School. Now each day on his way to his new school, he'd pass Haverford. To Scott, his dream school might as well have been on Mars.

• 8:39Shankar Vedantam?

  By the sixth grade, Scott was back in public school, but still on the special ed track. That was the year he discovered that along with kids like him who had special needs, there was another category of kids who were really special.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  I have a vivid memory of walking to my special ed classroom and hearing the announcement on the speaker. Gifted kids report to room three for your gifted classes. I remember thinking to myself, wow, here I am reporting to my special ed class. Who are these people? That was one of my first introductions to the term gifted, by the way, was through the speaker in my school, in my middle school. And it was a vivid moment for me. It really was a vivid moment because I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. There's a whole different class of humans that's the direct opposite of what I am? And they're the gifted ones? And suddenly, it was like a, I'm stuck in the complete opposite world.

• 9:39Shankar Vedantam?

  It felt awful.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  One way it felt awful was that the expectation carried me around from class to class to class, even some of the more mainstream classes I was starting to be put into in middle school. I remember being in a mainstream class, and on the first day of class, I saw this girl who I had such a crush on. Oh, my gosh, I was way too shy to ever say anything to her, but I saw her all around. And she was at the front of the classroom. And I was walking in, and I think I sat at the back, and the teacher opened up the class and said, is Scott Kaufman here? And I was like, oh, my gosh, like, looking down, you know, Scott Kaufman here? Oh, you're Scott Kaufman? Can you please come up to the front of the class?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Your mom says that you have trouble listening, hearing things, and that it'll really help you hear what my directions in the classroom. She sat me right next to this girl that I had a crush on. And, I mean, that was mortified. Can you imagine? Everyone listening to this episode right now, think back to your 12-year-old self. And that happened. I mean, I was so mortified.

• 10:45Shankar Vedantam?

  There were more psychological tests as time passed. Scott found himself simultaneously angry with psychologists and fascinated by them. On one occasion, his mother took him to see a therapist.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  I remember him asking me, what do I want to be someday? What are my dreams? I remember seeing the tag name, Dr. Milnick, I believe was his name, Dr. Milnick, psychologist. And I remember it just snapped in my head. I remember telling him, I want to be a psychologist. I want to be a psychologist. And I still have the reports. I have them all saved from 1989 or something like that, where it said, when he grows up, he wants to be an academic PhD psychologist. But here's a big kicker to this. My mom tells me that they told her that your son wants to be an academic PhD psychologist. He wrote that on his thing, but we think he has delusions of grandeur.

• 11:43Shankar Vedantam?

  In Scott's young mind, psychologists had all this power. They were able to peer into your head and see things no one else could see. When they said stuff, people listened to them. The things they wrote down in their charts changed your life. They determined which school you went to and which school you didn't go to. Scott felt psychology had shaped his life for the worse. If he could become a psychologist himself, he was sure he could do better. Sometimes, he'd imagine himself giving talks about psychology to rapt audiences.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I remember taking a shower and just closing my eyes and giving a 50-minute speech on human potential. The thing that excited me were ideas about how people are capable of so much more than they realize, how we don't really see the fullness of a human being. And this is even before TED Talks. But I remember in my head, the recollection of it is that the kind of talk I was giving matches exactly what a modern-day TED Talk looks like.

• 12:53Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott tried to become his own psychologist. If he couldn't convince psychologists that he had potential, he decided he would prove his case to himself.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  I became obsessed with IQ tests around that point. I remember just taking one IQ test after another. Some of them I didn't do too well on, and then some of them I did really, really well on. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna throw away those ones that said I did, they weren't so good. I'm gonna keep the others. I remember even, I remember one IQ test result I took on the internet, which said I was profoundly gifted. And I took it and I, I, I printed it out and I, I put it on my bedroom wall. I put this IQ test result on my bedroom wall. I remember the specific corner of the wall that I put it on, displaying my IQ test results I took from the internet. Yeah, I think I was desperate to prove to anyone, like, just to show anyone, like, look, there was, there's some intelligence over here.

• 13:49Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott had one other pivotal interaction with a world of psychology and IQ tests. When he was in high school, he requested access to some of the classes his friends on the gifted track were taking. He was told to go see his school psychologist to get permission.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember the office, it was a tiny room with file cabinets and a desk. There was like a little, small desk that he sat in, and then I sat right next to him. And he had my files of like, my files, my worst nightmare, by the way. I was like, I really hope he doesn't look at my files. And he just looks at who I am now.

• 14:27Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott was now 17 years old. The file on the psychologist's desk was a report with Scott's IQ test.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  And he's like, so look, here's the deal. And he draws on a piece of pa, it was either a napkin or a piece of paper. He drew a bell curve.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  And a bell curve for, for anyone that doesn't know what a bell curve is, you can place your, someone's IQ score on this kind of bell curve that shows what proportion in the population, what percentage you are, where you are, where you stand, where do you stand on IQ compared to everyone else in the general population or in your particular demographic? And He started in the far right and was and he had like the label gifted there. He's like, this is the far right, you know, like of the bell curve about 130. And he starts moving to the left. I'm like, oh my God. Uh, he moves him to the left. He moves to like 110. And he's like, well, this is about where averages, you know, about the hunter mark. And he still keeps moving to the left.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm getting agita over here, you know, like he's, I'm like, when's he gonna stop? When's the, when's that pen gonna stop? Like, what's, what's, what are we getting at here? Um, he stops to a, a score, which I believe was my score when I was tested at age eight or nine. It wasn't even the one that I was tested 11. Um, and he's like, you know, this is, this is your score. Uh, he's like, you're not gifted. Um, uh, you can't, you know, fortunately you can't qualify for gifted education. Um, but I'm here, you know, if you wanna talk about anything else, school psychology related.

• 16:01Shankar Vedantam?

  What was your score, Scott?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Eighty nine, something like eighty seven, something like that. I mean, that's, that's almost embar- I'm almost embarrassed because it's just like, it's a pretty low score. Not that anyone should be embarrassed who has that score. But it's, I am so resistant to having people judge me through the lens of that. Like, that's why I don't even really tell the story anymore. You know, like, I feel like I'm even taking a risk, like even saying, giving a number, you know? I'm not that person anymore.

• 16:30Shankar Vedantam?

  When this happened, Scott, do you recall him saying where you sat on the IQ spectrum? I mean, if, if 130 was gifted and, you know, 90 to 110 was normal, did he describe what 87 was?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  He didn't really just describe it to me, no. There wasn't, there wasn't a real, a real explanation. It was really like a, you know, you're not gifted and this is the, so there's not, my hands are tied. Like, what can I do?

• 16:58Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand that after you left his office, you went to the school library and you basically looked up how to read IQ tests. What did you find?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  I remember seeing a textbook on human intelligence and they have a chart in there that shows what different IQ bands people are capable of achieving. And I remember seeing my range that he kind of just showed me and it said, uh, it said unlikely to graduate high school.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  And I always had this rebellious bone in my body, though, because I remember saying, "F*** that," and throwing the book across the library.

• 17:45Shankar Vedantam?

  By this point, Scott was actually doing well in school. He had a case to be moved to the gifted track. But in looking at the results of his IQ test from when he was in elementary school, the school psychologist was saying some important things. First, the test had picked up something innate about Scott. It didn't matter how much he'd learned or what he'd accomplished in the years afterward. The test had peered into his mind, and the test had determined he was not gifted. Not then, not now, not ever.

• 18:22Shankar Vedantam?

  You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 18:41Shankar Vedantam?

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• 19:22Shankar Vedantam?

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• 19:36Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from LinkedIn. Hiring for a small business is hard. LinkedIn Hiring Pro acts like a helpful hiring partner. Chat with it about what matters most, compare candidates side by side, and share feedback like, I want someone with more hands-on experience. Hiring Pro adjusts and services candidates who fit your needs. Get started by posting your job for free at LinkedIn.com/HB. Terms and conditions apply.

• 20:09Shankar Vedantam?

  Hey there, Shankar here. We're running a little experiment and need your help. Are you an artist who listens to the show as you paint or sketch or sculpt? Are you creating art as you listen right now? Drop us a line at [email protected] if you're interested in creating something for us on video as you listen to the show. Please also send us a link to your work. And thanks.

• 20:35Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Scott Barry Kaufman desperately wanted to be seen as a smart kid. But everyone kept telling him he was the opposite of smart. He ended up repeating third grade, was sent to a school for kids with learning differences, and scored poorly on IQ tests. Scott didn't just experience these things as setbacks. He found them confusing. He thought of himself as a smart kid with lots of potential. Why didn't the world see him that way? At one point, though, when Scott was in high school, a new teacher noticed that he looked bored in the special ed resource room.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  And she was looking at me for most of that class. And I was wondering why she kept looking at me. But she took me aside after class. And she said, look, I just had to ask, like, what are you doing here? You know, I see you. And, boy, it really was like a profound moment in my life. I can remember thinking in my head, what am I doing here? Repeating her question? And then, yeah, what am I doing here? It was like just the empowerment I needed.

• 21:51Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott felt like he had been trying for years to tell people he had potential. Suddenly, there was someone else who could see the same thing.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  I felt like people thought I was crazy for thinking that I had some potential. In this moment, I was like, yeah, I don't know what I'm doing here. That's what I've been trying to tell people.

• 22:14Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott was allowed to leave special ed on a trial basis. The effect of someone believing in him was transformative.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  I actually went from like a C D student to like a straight A student, like almost overnight. And I took summer school classes. I joined so many things like plays, you know, I did musicals and everything. I just, something just erupted in me at that point where all this stuff just bubbled forth. And I was like, I love learning. I love everything about this and thank you for giving me that opportunity finally. School system that never gave me the opportunity before.

• 22:52Shankar Vedantam?

  And, and it's almost like this, this one, this one teacher in this one moment, it was almost like a light bulb going off in your head, it sounds like.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  It wasn't like a white bulb. It was like a volcano erupting, a volcano of human potential that had been dormant.

• 23:14Shankar Vedantam?

  One day, he was hanging out with friends after school.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  And they said, hey, we have to just go to the choir room and pick up something. This was after class, after school, after school. And so I just walked, went with them and they were in the choir room and the choir conductor was there. And I remember just sort of like making fun of them like, I was like, you know, you all sound like this.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  And the choir conductor turned around, looked at me and said, what just happened? Like, you have talent. Like, do you want to join our choir? And so that was one of my first big things that gave me such an amazing sense of efficacy and excitement and it it just felt so good. I mean, I can't tell you how good it feels to go from a long, pioneering life where you are invisible, you are literally invisible, and you know, deep inside you that you're capable of more, to a moment where suddenly you're now allowed to be discovered.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  It was almost like I went through nine grades where I was forbidden for anyone even to see that I had any potential.

• 24:40Shankar Vedantam?

  So you graduate, you graduate high school and you still want to become a psychologist. You decide that you want to go to Carnegie Mellon, it's a college in your home state. It has a strong program in cognitive psychology. So you take the SAT. What happens?

• 25:00Speaker 01

  So I didn't do too hot on the SAT. I'm gonna just lay it to you straight there, my friend.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Huge anxiety. I'm getting anxiety thinking about that SAT session, like even just thinking about it, like, how many, 20 or 25 years later? I'm anxiety. I remember seeing the countdown of the clock on the screen. Tick, tick, you got two minutes left to answer all these questions and my brain just freezing. And I didn't do too hot on the SAT.

• 25:30Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm wondering, at the point at which you got your SAT scores back, it seems almost as if this is déjà vu. You've taken another test and the test is supposed to purportedly tell you something about your potential and how smart you are and whether you, which track you can go to, which college you can get into. And very much like what happened when you were eight and what happened when you were 11, you were having a test that basically told you, Scott Barry Kaufman, you are not destined for this track, you are destined for some other track.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  It's very astute of you to notice that, but that's exactly how I felt as well. I was like, again, you can't escape it.

• 26:09Shankar Vedantam?

  To compensate for his weak score, but also to settle scores with standardized testing, Scott came up with a plan. He decided to apply to the psychology program at Carnegie Mellon University and to focus his application essay on his pet peeve with standardized tests. He argued that these tests did not reveal the true potential of students.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  And I wrote a very, very from the heart, personal essay, which I still have saved, saying our notions of human potential are really inaccurate. We need broader notions that go beyond standardized metrics to understand the real achievement potential of humans. And I wrote that from my heart and I got rejected from the cognitive science program at Carnegie Mellon, presumably in large part to my lower SAT scores.

• 26:59Shankar Vedantam?

  But Scott didn't give up. He came up with a new idea. What if he applied to another department at the same school? Scott's voice teacher in high school thought he could become a professional opera singer. Could he get into Carnegie Mellon via the opera program?

• 27:16Speaker 01

  And I was like, you know what? Let me sing Stars to them in the opera program at Carnegie Mellon. Maybe I can get in that way.

• 27:23Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott's favorite song in high school was Stars from Les Misérables. He sang it all the time, including at a performance in his senior year, a few months before his audition.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  I went to the audition and I sang my heart out.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Everything in that moment of frustration, anger, I put it into that song.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  And they accepted, they told my parents that they thought I was, that I could be a real good opera singer and they accepted me on a partial scholarship to Carnegie Mellon. When the other department at the university, and they rejected me. So I didn't bother to tell the music department, just so you know, I've already been rejected in another part of your school. I didn't do that.

• 28:25Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott mentally prepared himself for the path of an opera student. By then, his second semester, he signed up for an intro to psychology course.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  It reaffirmed how much I love psychology. Like, you know, when you meet something, you're like, this is me. And then you go away from it, and you come back to it, and it's still, this is me. That's telling you something. Like, that's important information. And I was like, I gotta do this.

• 28:52Shankar Vedantam?

  He quietly transferred into the psychology department. Soon, he was learning about intelligence and the science of IQ tests. His goal from the very start was to tear down the edifice of IQ testing. But he felt he had to go into the lion's den first in order to tear it down. By the time he was 20, Scott had talked his way into a spot at Cambridge University in England, working with one of the most prominent researchers on the science of intelligence.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  I was so nervous and excited. I didn't know if I was going to be able to be as intelligent as I needed to be to be a research assistant at Cambridge University. It was almost hard for me to fathom that I would legitimately be intelligent enough to be worthy of the situation. I was like, Scott, even with all your grandiose fantasies and everything, this is a little... Are you serious? What are you doing, Scott? What are you doing?

• 29:55Shankar Vedantam?

  But Scott's mentor, Nick McIntosh, set him at ease.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Nick couldn't have been more wonderful, more supportive, and he must have seen something in me. He saw the person that I was in that moment.

• 30:09Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott didn't tell Nick about his own experience with IQ tests. He was still ashamed.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  I mean, he didn't know my background. By the way, I kept all this a secret from him throughout, or into all the times we worked together and everything. You know, he didn't look at my IQ score when I was age 11. And he accepted me to work with him. And I did some pretty rigorous research with him in that six months as an undergrad that would then form the basis of my master's thesis with him.

• 30:38Shankar Vedantam?

  Studying under Nick, Scott started to learn about the deep history of IQ tests, starting with Alfred Binet, a French psychologist. In 1904, Alfred Binet was charged by the French government with devising a test. The idea was to direct resources to kids who needed help in school. Alfred Binet made it very clear what he thought the test could and could not measure.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  He wrote that. He said, "This is not an intelligence test that I'm creating. This is a test that I've been given the task of differentiating those who would need more remediation and those who don't. We say only about the child's current needs, not his future potential." He said this, Binet said this in the manual, in the testing, the Binet manual, the original manual. He says things like that. "We do not even begin to report what this person is capable of."

• 31:37Speaker 01

  The great tragedy of that story is that they ended up never using his tests in France.

• 31:45Shankar Vedantam?

  Instead, it was the Americans who fell in love with Alfred Binet's test. And they used it to measure the very thing the French psychologist had warned against. They used it to assess intelligence.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  It completely betrayed the spirit, the philosophy, the principles upon which Binet originally wanted to create the test, completely betrayed him. And on his deathbed, he wrote an essay, saying, "The Americans have betrayed me."

• 32:17Shankar Vedantam?

  The psychologist Lewis Terman at Stanford was among those who transformed Binet's test in the United States. Instead of being used as a tool to direct resources to kids who needed help, he turned the test into a tracking tool to identify the gifted.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Terman was very, very interested in giftedness and really had this idea in his head that genius is only recruited from the line of high IQ.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  There's a lot of people involved in these, the early days of applying IQ tests. It's really the application part here, we're talking about using it to sort people in America that betrayed the original philosophy. They made it into multiple choice tests and gave it out to entire school systems, gave it out to, in the army, gave it out, they used it in lots of ways to send back people coming in from Ellis Island, right? Like, you know, you're too feeble minded to come to America, you know? Never mind that a lot of these tests had verbal components to it. And you're giving people who English is not their first language. It's, you know, it's mind blowing in the extents to which this test, which did have

• 33:28Speaker 01

  some potential for real utility, how much it was abused in the earliest days of use of those tests.

• 33:36Shankar Vedantam?

  Lewis Terman drew on the work of German psychologist William Stern and helped popularize the notion of something called an intelligence quotient, what we now know today as IQ.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Mathematically, there's a formula that a lot of people started using in America, which I think is indicative of the way they thought about intelligence, right? And in order to understand the formula, you have to understand the difference between mental age and chronological age. But they're basically saying, you could be 13, that's your chronological age in terms of your biology, in terms of, your mental age can be below that or above it. So your mental age, you could be a 13 year old with a mental age of seven, and they called you backwards. That was the term they used. You're backwards, if that's the case. But you're gifted if your mental age far exceeds your chronological age.

• 34:29Shankar Vedantam?

  So McIntosh obviously was one of the most respected researchers in the field of intelligence, but he was also genuinely open minded and responsive and curious and not sort of dogmatic. Can you just describe that? You, in some ways, were coming to him perhaps with an agenda that he didn't know, that your agenda was really to pull down the edifice of intelligence and intelligence testing. And maybe he didn't know that you were a saboteur who had just arrived at Cambridge University. But describe to me the way he worked and sort of the effect this had on you and the way you started thinking about the questions you were grappling with.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Macintosh was a traditional British psychometrician. I mean, that's as traditional IQ as you get on paper and pencil. But his personality and his demeanor and everything about him

• 35:13Speaker 01

  just signaled a pure, pure love of science. No agenda, no agenda on Nick Macintosh's part. He wrote a textbook, The Science of IQ, which I remember reading and it almost instantly made me a, I won't say convert, I don't know if that word quite applies, but it almost instantly seduced me into loving the science of IQ intelligence. And I forgot that I was supposed to be on this vendetta. I forgot.

• 35:45Shankar Vedantam?

  At one point, Nick Macintosh asked a simple question. Assume for a moment that there is no underlying innate ability called intelligence. Some people are good at math, others are good at reading. But if that was the case, he asked, why is it teachers often notice that the same students who do well at math also do well at reading?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  I mean, if you read this book, The Science of IQ by Macintosh, it's just so interesting to see all the little nuances of the field. Things like, things I just didn't dawn on me could be true. I had all these ideologies and thoughts that there's no such thing as general intelligence or that IQ doesn't matter in life. You know, and then here I am and reading in this textbook, generally didn't have to be this way, but it's very curious that someone's score on a non-verbal IQ test could correlate so highly with someone's score on a verbal. And then he would ask questions like, what is it about vocabulary that could be in common in terms of cognitive processes than rotating an image in the mind?

• 36:48Shankar Vedantam?

  What does vocabulary have in common with cognitive processes like rotating an image in the mind? If verbal skills and spatial skills were just that, skills that could be learned with practice, wasn't it odd that the kids who were good at one were often also good at the other? Scott found himself intrigued by questions like this.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  My curiosity just took over, you know, and I started actually doing really traditional, serious experimental research with him when I got there to Cambridge.

• 37:19Shankar Vedantam?

  There was a second area when Nick McIntosh started to sway Scott's pre-existing views about IQ tests.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Something that I found fascinating when I started to go to Nick McIntosh's lectures, he did present data showing the correlation between IQ and lots of outcomes in life. And that was a time I did feel a little triggered based on my childhood. And I found it very, very interesting and almost a moral quandary. He presented like basically the same table I saw when I was 16 and said, that in the library. He presented that in his lecture at University of Cambridge, showing the different IQ bands and what they tend to do in their life. Like, oh, my gosh, this really, this chart again?

• 38:08Speaker 01

  I kind of like snapped back to my childhood. And I was like, well, what do I do? Because this is the science. This is the data.

• 38:27Shankar Vedantam?

  Scott's foray into the lion's den of IQ testing hadn't turned out the way he'd expected. When we come back, how Scott responded to his moral quandary. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 39:04Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from Planet Visionaries. Professional climber and environmental advocate Alex Honnold hosts Planet Visionaries, a podcast spotlighting the people tackling climate challenges with real, hopeful solutions.

• 39:18Shankar Vedantam?

  Throughout season six, Alex brings together extraordinary change makers for powerful conversations about grit, determination, and the power of hope to fuel our fight for a better future. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Mazda. Being safer on the road starts with the person behind the wheel. That's Mazda's philosophy when designing every vehicle. Their proactive safety features help keep you more aware, connected, and engaged during every drive, which means your car does more than help protect you. It helps make you a safer driver, which helps protect everyone. That's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest

• 40:00Shankar Vedantam?

  new car brand. To learn more, visit MazdaUSA.com. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services.

• 40:10Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Do you have follow-up questions about intelligence after listening to this episode? Maybe you have a personal story about how your potential was assessed when you were young. If you'd be willing to share your question or story with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone. Two or three minutes is plenty. Then email the file to us at [email protected]. Use the subject line "Intelligence." That email address again: [email protected].

• 40:49Shankar Vedantam?

  Early in his career, intelligence researcher Scott Barry Kaufman set out to tear down the edifice of IQ testing. He felt it had greatly limited his own prospects as a young person. But then he found himself convinced by much of the science behind IQ. It left him with a quandary: should he trust his own experience with IQ tests, or should he trust the data? As he finished his undergraduate studies and went on to get a PhD in cognitive psychology, Scott came to feel that the real question was not whether the science of IQ was wrong, but whether it was incomplete.

• 41:25Shankar Vedantam?

  One thing that IQ tests hadn't looked at was how much a person cared about what they were doing.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  When you go take an IQ test, it tends to be divorced entirely from the context of your own life. That's by design. They want to see, how good are you at abstract reasoning? And that's thought to be the height of intelligence. However, so much of life is not decontextualized from our life. In fact, most of our life. We are excited about, when we're excited about certain things, our attentional system is directed towards it. This engagement aspect is absolutely essential to our understanding of someone's potential. The more we engage in something, we learn. And the more that we learn something, the more it makes us want to engage in something.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Because once we start becoming good at something, then we start to invest more of our time and energy into it. So it's a very strong dynamic cycle.

• 42:23Shankar Vedantam?

  Teachers, managers, and coaches can testify to Scott's insight. Talent matters, but sometimes, passion and drive matter more. Along with deep engagement, creativity is another driver of performance that is overlooked by IQ tests. In fact, researchers have found that there can be an inverse relationship between intelligence and creativity.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  When you look at the neuroscience of creativity, those who have the most imaginative sort of ideas are the kind of brains that show reduction of gray volume in what's called the prefrontal cortex. So sometimes you actually find that some of the brains that look the least intelligent are actually the most creative. That's the point I'm trying to make here. So it depends a lot on your ability to sometimes put aside all the prior expertise you have, maybe even put aside your critical thinking facilities. And be able to really have more associative processes. I like to say it's really important to be really open minded, but not so open minded that your brain falls out.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  So that's why I think intelligence is important. I'm not saying intelligence isn't important, but it depends on the thing that you're creating. I actually published a paper showing the distinction between the arts and the sciences and its prediction of IQ and the extent to which IQ predicts these things. And you find IQ had a zero correlation with artistic creative achievement in life.

• 43:54Shankar Vedantam?

  And why do you think it is that in artistic fields, you're not seeing a connection between IQ and outcomes? What do you think is happening there if you're a painter or a poet or a musician?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  One important cognitive process that's associated with arts is what's called latent inhibition, and it's particularly reduced latent inhibition. So usually, we tend to see the world and tag things as relevant or irrelevant to a problem we're working on based on our prior expectations. But people in the arts are really good at constantly seeing things with fresh eyes. They're constantly good at putting aside their prior preconceptions and trying to find meaning in the here and now. And we've published papers and there are other papers showing that people who tend to have a reduced latent inhibition, reduced, tend to score higher in the arts creative achievement domain.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Also, it's correlated with openness to experience as well, the personality trait openness to experience, openness to aesthetics, openness to beauty, and also emotions, being able to tap into the rich, rich tapestry of your emotions and not view some of your emotions as off limits, like saying you always have to be happy all the time, but actually saying, you know, I'm actually going to take this depression I'm going through and use that as fodder for creativity.

• 45:12Shankar Vedantam?

  You've also said that IQ tests fail to capture the full range of human potential in that they focus on the explicit, the conscious, the controlled forms of thinking. What does this leave out, Scott?

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Well, one specific thing I did study in my dissertation is this idea called implicit learning, which is our ability to learn the probabilistic rule structure of the world automatically and implicitly without our level of awareness. This is deep implications. So I mean, so you talk about the theme of your show right here. We're getting to, this is very, very congruent. I mean, think about what is required to develop social intelligence. Sometimes when people smile, they mean this. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes when people's eyes are like this, sometimes they don't, you know, the world is messy. And I, from a cognitive scientist lens, I developed tasks to measure people, differences

• 46:09Speaker 01

  in people's ability to learn about the probabilistic structure of something. And we have found that's virtually uncorrelated, wholly uncorrelated with IQ. The people that can go into an IQ testing, one of our sessions, like A, C, B, D, and get like strongly off the charts IQ, oftentimes the ones that are not learning implicitly.

• 46:37Shankar Vedantam?

  Solving puzzles involves logic and analysis, but logic cannot help you read someone's expression in a crowded room. That requires cognitive skills that are often learned unconsciously. Scott is not merely saying that the cognitive ability that IQ tests measure is different than the abilities that allow us to apprehend unwritten patterns and relationships in the real world. He's saying that sometimes these different cognitive abilities might come at the expense of each other.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  It's like a seesaw. Sometimes the thing on one side causing you challenges brings you up in another way.

• 47:15Shankar Vedantam?

  He sees this especially amongst so-called 2E kids.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  2E stands for twice exceptional, where you have a profound extraordinary difficulty or challenge in your life, and you also have a profound gift, or talent, or ability. But there are, there are people that really do have profound difficulties and profound gifts and talents in one body.

• 47:41Shankar Vedantam?

  And in some ways, it complicates the notion of how we think about people, right? We think about smart people as always being smart, dull people always being dull. And what you're doing partly with this Stewie label is basically saying, no, people are more complicated than that.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I saw that, just going way back to the sixth grade Scott, who heard the announcement on the speaker, gifted kids go to their room. I sensed in my gut, there's something much more complicated about humans than the way that we're dividing and sorting people here. And I still believe it, and I believe it in so many ways, like hidden ways that we don't explicitly acknowledge in our society, old systems, especially in the education system, but you also see it in organizations and hiring practices. It goes deep, this stuff. A lot of these assumptions we have about human potential that are really outdated and just wrong.

• 48:40Shankar Vedantam?

  So, the story that has stuck with me, I think, through this whole episode is the one that you told me about, the school psychologist who looked at your IQ test and showed you where you fell on the bell curve of intelligence, and started with the gifted and moved the pencil over and over and over to the left, and then to the left, and then more to the left. That moment was really crushing for you in all kinds of ways. But some years ago, you had an extraordinary experience. You were walking in a park in Philadelphia, and you came by an elderly man sitting on a park bench. Set the scene for me, and tell me that story, Scott.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  I was really happy. I was pumped. I just had a nice weightlifting session. And I'm running, and I cross a man on a bench, and I feel something in my gut, like dread. Like, why am I feeling dread? I don't know. I look back at the person, and then it hits me. That's the school psychologist from high school who drew the bell curve on the napkin and basically inspired me to go into this field, not in the way that he would have ever thought. But I'm like, that's him. He's older, but I recognize him. And it did create a bit of a dilemma in me, which is like, what do I, do I approach him? Do I say hi? Do I, what?

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Do I sock him in the face? What do I do? And with a lot of trepidation and my heart beating very fast, I approached him on the park bench. And I said, hey, do you mind if I if I just sit next to you for a second? I want to tell you something. And he's like, sure, no problem, no problem. And I sat down, I said, hey, I was a was a student of yours and you you changed my life. And he said, oh, yeah, by in a sort of screw you sort of way, probably.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  He said that. And, you know, I laughed and I said, well, you know, you just you did. I did, you know, I'm a psychologist now. And I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't feel the need to yell at him or tell him the whole story. But he said something very interesting to me. When I told him I'm a psychologist now, he said, he said, oh, that's he's like, well, that's interesting. I'm actually tutoring a kid right now who really low IQ, really low IQ is really not the sharpest tool in the shed. Well, my blood boiled a bit and I I calmed myself down. I just said, maybe you could just keep looking deeper at beyond the IQ and to maybe think about him in a bit of a broader way

• 51:20Speaker 01

  and where you look at the totality of him, not a particular slice of him when you're making that kind of judgment call. And he agreed, I mean, he he agreed. To his credit, he he's like, that's a good point.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  And I just kind of realized in that moment, like, you know what, like, he's not evil. He's human. He was probably doing the best that he could at the time in what he knew and how he was trained. And and he and even now, he was doing the best he can to try to help this kid. And the best I could do is not yell at him or tell him my story, but to just tell him about the field of twice exceptional and to tell him about, well, maybe here's some resources. So I offered him some resources to help this kid based on the research I've done.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  I wish someone told him that. And when I was in 11th grade, maybe he would have treated me differently. But then again, if he treated me differently, maybe I wouldn't have been in the position to ever even be at that park bench to tell him that. So it's all very weird. I don't know, life, sometimes you just got to go with it.

• 52:35Shankar Vedantam?

  Psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman studies the science of human potential. He's the author of Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. Scott, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Thank you. This is wonderful.

• 52:57Shankar Vedantam?

  Do you have a follow-up question for Scott Barry Kaufman or a story related to this episode? If you'd be willing to share your question or story with a Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. Two or three minutes is plenty. Then email the file to us at [email protected]. Use the subject line "Intelligence." That email address again: [email protected]. After the break, what do couples who've been happily married for 40, 50, or 60 years know that the rest of us don't?

• 53:36Speaker 03

  In our retirement, we have come up with a house rule that states, "He or she who is doing any task can do it any damn way they want."

• 53:48Shankar Vedantam?

  Listeners share how they make their relationships work, and psychologist James Cordova returns to the show in our latest installment of Your Questions Answered. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 54:11Speaker 04

  Meet Craig. Craig manages the local haunted house. He's got a lot to juggle: tangled cobwebs, flickering lights, and scheduling vampires.

• 54:20Speaker 05

  Count. It's time for your break. I'll break when I'm dead. You are dead. That's like your whole thing. Here, have a Kit Kat.

• 54:28Speaker 06

  Mmm.

• 54:30Speaker 07

  Fine, 15 minutes, but no longer. Good. I'm grabbing a Kit Kat, too.

• 54:35Speaker 08

  Nobody should have to wait until they're dead to take a break. Have a break. Have a Kit Kat.

• 54:41Speaker 09

  If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. It's destroying athlete, creator, and YouTube Maxer. YouTube Premium enhances how I use YouTube with awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite training videos before I hit the gym. So no Wi-Fi doesn't turn leg day into loading day. Plus, I get ad-free videos, background play, and so much more. YouTube Premium is like YouTube got some extra gains. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 55:16Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 55:20Shankar Vedantam?

  Every generation has its power couples. The novelist Gertrude Stein and her partner Alice B. Talkless were arguably one such couple. In the early part of the 20th century, their Paris apartment was the center of a thriving literary and artistic scene, attracting the likes of Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Pablo Picasso.

• 55:51Shankar Vedantam?

  But that doesn't mean everything was perfect between them. Their relationship hit a rough patch when Alice learned that Gertrude had had a love affair before she met Alice. The writer Francesca Wade describes this revelation in her book, Gertrude Stein and Afterlife.

• 56:09Shankar Vedantam?

  She writes, "Talkless saw the discovery of this past entanglement as a betrayal of their shared and fundamental understanding that there would be no secrets between them."

• 56:21Shankar Vedantam?

  In response, Alice later told an interviewer, she tormented Gertrude for a year and a half. She destroyed all of the letters Gertrude's former lover had sent to her. And on a trip to the US, she tried to keep Gertrude's American friends from seeing her.

• 56:39Shankar Vedantam?

  Eventually, Gertrude Stein had to tell her partner that if she didn't stop, their relationship was over. Alice's choice: either make peace with her partner's past or split up.

• 56:51Shankar Vedantam?

  She didn't have to like that Gertrude had loved someone else, but she had to accept it.

• 57:00Shankar Vedantam?

  Accepting our partners isn't always easy, as Alice B. Talkless discovered. For many of us, the impulse to alter things we dislike about our partners is irresistible.

• 57:13Shankar Vedantam?

  But as the psychologist James Cordova discussed with us in a series of recent Hidden Brain episodes, acceptance is essential to unlocking deeper, more meaningful connections. If you missed those episodes, you can find them in this podcast feed. They're titled Love 2.0: How to Fix Your Marriage, Part 1, and Love 2.0: How to Fix Your Marriage, Part 2.

• 57:37Shankar Vedantam?

  Today, James Cordova returns to Hidden Brain to respond to listeners' thoughts, stories, and questions about their relationships. It's the latest installment of our popular segment, Your Questions Answered. James Cordova, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

• 57:52Speaker 10

  Thank you so much, Shankar. It's great to be here.

• 57:56Shankar Vedantam?

  James, one of the things we discussed in our earlier conversations was the fact that some problems in our relationships are fixable and some are not. So deciding which side of the bed to sleep on, that might be an easy problem. Deciding whether to live in the city or the suburbs where partners want different things, you call these mezzanine-level problems. Then there are the set of problems you call perpetual issues. What makes perpetual issues different from other problems, James?

• 58:25Speaker 10

  That's a good question. The characteristic that makes perpetual issues different is that they are arising out of naturally occurring fundamental differences between two partners. So these are things like personality differences. Say, for example, introvert and extrovert, different emotional relationships with money, like a spender relationship with money versus a saver relationship with money. So they're part of how we're built. And because it's sort of fundamental to who we are, that agenda to try to change each other tends to create tension.

• 59:06Shankar Vedantam?

  In other words, what you're saying is perpetual issues get at things that people really cannot change or accommodate.

• 59:14Speaker 10

  Exactly, right. And they tend to be the things that are left when we've changed everything that we can.

• 59:21Shankar Vedantam?

  You say that acceptance is the solution to perpetual issues. Talk about this idea. What do you mean by acceptance here, James?

• 59:29Speaker 10

  So, acceptance is letting go of our efforts to change the other person and our efforts to change ourselves in relation to those things that even though we wish they were otherwise, hard experience has sort of taught us, oh, this actually isn't going to change. We gave it the good old college try and it has shown itself as resilient to that.

• 1:00:00Shankar Vedantam?

  I think some people hear the term acceptance and think that means that you are suggesting capitulation or rolling over. You talk about the importance of developing a soft front and a strong back when we're engaging with our partners. What do you mean by that term?

• 1:00:17Speaker 10

  So, soft front, strong back is a way of moving in relation to each other where the soft front is really, it's just empathy for our partner. You know, I know where you're coming from. I get it. I can feel it and I care. That's the soft front. And the strong back is really, you know, empathy for ourselves, compassion for ourselves, connection to our own well-being, and not abandoning that in relation to what is best for our partner. So, how can we meet our partner with empathy without abandoning the things that are best for ourselves?

• 1:00:58Shankar Vedantam?

  We talked in our earlier conversations about people who are cactuses and people who are ferns. If you're a fern, you crave a lot of water, so you want a lot of emotional connection. If you're a cactus, you crave less water and need more time to yourself to maybe charge your own batteries. Here's a message we received on that front from a listener named Emily. She says that she and her husband have been married for 12 years and were together for many years before that.

• 1:01:25Speaker 11

  In many ways, we're super compatible, but we're realizing our emotional compatibility is off. I desire to share all of my feelings and dump them all out on him because keeping in my feelings makes me anxious and upset, whereas he desires to not have that emotional overload and becomes very overwhelmed by it easily. And so we're struggling with how do we get our emotional needs met with emotions that don't align.

• 1:02:06Speaker 11

  We have chosen to stay together and are, you know, seeking support through a therapist. And we will continue to choose to stay together because there is a lot of love and a lot of history.

• 1:02:18Shankar Vedantam?

  I can hear how Emily is struggling here, James. Obviously, you don't know all the particulars of this relationship, but what advice would you have for Emily and her husband?

• 1:02:28Speaker 10

  It's such a, in some ways, classic conflict of friction between partners. And in some ways, it is that cactus-fern kind of pattern. You know, what Emily is pointing at is, for her, going back over the contents of the day, sharing the hard things, like, she doesn't want to be...

• 1:02:52Speaker 10

  Alone in her own head and in her own heart with that. So it really is a bid for connection and to just have some, some companionship, to invite a friend into that space with her. And that's not at all an uncommon way to seek connection with others. Um, for her husband, and this is often gendered in this way. Like when I'm done at the end of my day with all the hard things that have gone on and I've found a place to sort of, uh, put all of my discomfort internally. Going over it again is like re-exposing ourselves to it. It's like, I already put that bit of toxicity away.

• 1:03:35Speaker 10

  And it can feel like, oh, now you're inviting me to relive it. Right. And so, you know, it's a way that we sort of learn as men sometimes to avoid feeling that discomfort, you know, a second time. And I think what we can miss is, uh, we don't give ourselves the opportunity to have the experience of actually feeling the connection that can emerge from that. And so, you know, I guess the advice that I would give is for each of them in that cactus fern way to recognize what the other person needs to feel like I care about the way that you experienced this. Right. So for Emily to be able to understand that

• 1:04:19Speaker 10

  it's just always going to be a little bit harder for her husband to step back into, you know, talking about things that are experienced as emotionally hard. He can do it, but, but to care that it's a little bit more challenging and to just express appreciation that, you know, I know I'm asking you to do something that doesn't come naturally to you. And for her husband to know and to care like, this is one of the most fundamental ways that I can love you. This is one of the most fundamental ways that I can make sure that you're getting the love and care, the water that sustains you. And if I, if I refuse to do that, even if you want to be close and connected to me,

• 1:05:03Speaker 10

  your roots are just gonna dry out. Right. Like it's not, it's not choiceful. It's very much is like taking care of a plant. If I'm not, if I don't water it enough, it is gonna die.

• 1:05:14Shankar Vedantam?

  One of the things that often happens in relationships is that partners express their needs through accusations. You talk about the importance of emphasizing pain without bringing up accusations. How would you suggest a couple like Emily and her husband do this, James?

• 1:05:31Speaker 10

  You know, for me, the key is to lead with empathy and compassionate understanding for where the other person is coming from. The accusation is often, it's driven by our very good-hearted desire to find a cause for the suffering that we're both experiencing. And psychologically, our first instinct is, well, you're sitting in front of me. You must be the cause and it must be inside of you. So it's just good problem solving, but that reach for the accusation actually never gets us anywhere. I mean, if you just think about your own experience, it actually never gets us

• 1:06:15Speaker 10

  anywhere that we're happy to be. The key is to reach first for compassionate understanding. So let me understand what this is like for you from your perspective. And that, if I can do that, will soften my heart and sort of open my ears and open your ears a little bit better to understanding where I'm coming from. So that we can see how the way that we're both entering this, that we are co-creating this point of friction or this point of pain between the two of us. And then we can actually collaborate to find a way forward.

• 1:06:54Shankar Vedantam?

  Hidden brain listeners are just amazing, James. And this next question blew me away. Listener Cassandra asks whether the challenge of acceptance has less to do with our partners and more to do with ourselves.

• 1:07:11Speaker 12

  So one of the ways in which I've come to accept the things that I wish would change in my partner was to look to myself about why it bothers me. What is it about that thing? And work on what that is. Does it remind me of someone of my childhood? In my case, it did. It reminded me of my father. I'm a sober person and every time my partner liked to enjoy a couple of drinks, I'd be upset with him because he would remind me of my father. And my intolerance for that was a hint that there's more to explore within myself.

• 1:07:50Shankar Vedantam?

  What do you think, James? Is the challenge of acceptance less about accepting our partners and more about accepting ourselves?

• 1:07:57Speaker 10

  I love that question and I love, you know, what Cassandra is talking about because she really is spot on. The arising of that experience of, I really don't like this. And the initial spot, the domain of acceptance is, what is showing up for me? What is arising in my own system? My own experience of discomfort and upset. I can tell that a button's getting pushed for me. And that almost always, if we're honest with ourselves, helps us to see the vulnerability that is being brushed up against by the thing that our partner is doing or failing to do. And so I love Cassandra's sort of example of,

• 1:08:41Speaker 10

  this is more about, you know, what I learned, what I've sort of experienced from my own father's drinking. And that's where my vulnerability is. And then there's two things. One is to be able to hold our own vulnerability with just great care and understanding and kindness, you know, not get into a fight with our own vulnerability. And then we're also in a much better place to be able to share what's true for us with our partner in that non-blaming way that we were talking about, right? Like, this isn't about something that you're doing that's bad or evil. This is about a vulnerability that I have that I'm asking you to be aware of and to help me take care of.

• 1:09:33Shankar Vedantam?

  Accepting our partner's flaws and making peace with them can be tough. Accepting our own flaws and apologizing for the hurt we've caused can be equally challenging. When we come back, listeners' questions about the concept of eating the blame. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 1:10:02Speaker 04

  Meet Craig. Craig manages the local haunted house. He's got a lot to juggle: tangled cobwebs, flickering lights, and scheduling vampires.

• 1:10:11Speaker 05

  Count, it's time for your break.

• 1:10:13Speaker 07

  I'll break when I'm dead.

• 1:10:15Speaker 05

  You are dead. That's like your whole thing. Here, have a Kit Kat.

• 1:10:19Speaker 07

  Hmm. Fine. 15 minutes, but no longer.

• 1:10:23Speaker 05

  Good. I'm grabbing a Kit Kat, too.

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  Nobody should have to wait until they're dead to take a break. Have a break. Have a Kit Kat.

• 1:10:32Speaker 13

  Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features, like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi. Because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get backroom play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Try it now for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. That's a mouthful.

• 1:11:05Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. I'm a good person, doing the best I can in difficult circumstances. If that's something you've thought or said to yourself before, welcome to the club. Most of us think of ourselves as good people. Psychologists sometimes refer to this as our moral self-concept, and it's a process that can be important to our self-esteem and mental health.

• 1:11:33Shankar Vedantam?

  But it's also one of the reasons it can be really hard to say, I'm sorry. After all, we're good people and we have intimate knowledge of our own thoughts and emotions. We know what we meant to say, even if the other person heard it differently. And yet, as difficult as it can be to apologize, doing so can break a cycle of bitterness and blame in romantic relationships. Psychologist James Cordova refers to this as eating the blame. And many of our listeners had follow up thoughts and questions about this idea. James, remind us briefly what you mean by eating the blame?

• 1:12:12Speaker 10

  So yeah, eating the blame is a phrase that I've borrowed from the Zen tradition. And the basic sort of message is that in any moment when something has gone a little bit haywire, when things aren't quite showing up the way that we wish they would, there's some blame to be apportioned, that it is a deep practice of both compassion and wisdom to simply reach for that blame and say, like, you know what, if somebody has to take this, let it be me. And there can be a way that we can do this as a practice that actually deepens connection

• 1:12:56Speaker 10

  with ourselves and deepens connection with each other.

• 1:13:00Shankar Vedantam?

  In some ways, I think sometimes this comes to us naturally. I'm thinking about the way, you know, parents sometimes deal with a small child. You know, the child's upset about something, the parent often doesn't get into a blame fight, saying, you know, you really have to get your impulses under control. And even if the parent actually doesn't feel like the blame is on them, it's sort of easier in some ways to eat the blame when it comes to dealing, for example, with a small child.

• 1:13:26Speaker 10

  That makes sense, right? Because we're safe as parents in that up power position in relation to the child. So it makes it a little bit easier for us to take on that extra burden. In our intimate relationships, there's, you know, there isn't a power differential, right? And so eating the blame can feel like we're putting ourselves in a down power position rather than doing something beneficent, doing something that actually is this very generous way of taking care of the situation.

• 1:14:01Shankar Vedantam?

  We received a question about eating the blame from listener Monique. She says that when she eats the blame in her relationship, she notices that it helps her to reconnect with her partner. But there's a catch.

• 1:14:13Speaker 14

  What I also notice is that when I eat blame and I apologize or I acknowledge what I did wrong or something like that, my partner tends to lean back and say, well, thank you. Now let's move on. And of course, I am able to do that. But now it happens, it seems to be our dynamic that I'm the one building the bridge to reconnect. And he accepts it and steps on the bridge. But how do I? Because I see his part in the dynamic as well. And I don't want to blame him,

• 1:14:56Speaker 14

  but I would sometimes like for him to accept or to eat the blame as well. How do I deal with this in a constructive way? I'm very curious. Thank you.

• 1:15:07Shankar Vedantam?

  What do you think, James? If only one person is eating the blame over and over again, it seems like that's a meal that would become pretty unappetizing over time.

• 1:15:16Speaker 10

  Sure, for sure. Yeah, you know, I love the example. And Monique does such a nice job of sort of describing what it's like. And I particularly love that she, you know, she starts off by recognizing this really does work. Building a bridge, my partner appreciates it. And we are able to move on. But, you know, the thing has this little tail that is just sort of gnawing at me, right? And, you know, it's interesting because on the one hand,

• 1:15:47Speaker 10

  you know, the, the practice of eating the blame is, it is a deeply spiritual practice, right? It is, it's calling on us to recognize how the ego shows up to protect us from our partner. And eating the blame is sort of a way of like eating the ego. Right? It gets that thing out of the way so that we can clear that space between ourselves and our partner. You know, it's really my ego between me and you. So let me get that out of the way so that I can reach out and apologize and use my agency to reconnect us. But in some ways, what Monique is pointing out is like, well, I didn't quite finish the meal.

• 1:16:26Speaker 10

  Like, there's still a little bit of blame here that I wish my partner would eat. Right? You know, I get that, right? Like, we really want our partner to just like mirror us and do their part in doing the same thing. But it's sort of, it's that extra challenge of like, oh, there's a little morsel left. Let me just, let me just go ahead and finish that one, too. Right? Because the reconnection is really the point, right? And that all being said, you know, it's also, it is also available for us to, to ask, you know, for something from our partner in that spot. It is my, I, you know, I do want to accept the blame here. I do want to find our way to reconnection with each other. And I am feeling like I would also love it.

• 1:17:11Speaker 10

  If you could say something similar, right? We don't want to put too much weight on that because it does start to recreate that sense of separation. But if you can plant that seed and maybe give it some time and some space to flower, you might see some change in the long run. But, but I'm thinking of that as secondary, right? Because the real practice, and Monique is really showing some expertise in this spot, is to just wholeheartedly, I'm sorry for the part that I played in that. And I want us to find our way back to reconnection.

• 1:17:48Shankar Vedantam?

  I think it's important to note how gender may play into our expectations around who's eating the blame in a relationship. Listener Susan wrote to us to say, I appreciated James Cordova's perspective and ideas on increasing intimacy in partner relationships. However, I became uncomfortable when he talked about eating the blame. As a woman and a social worker with a background in family violence, eating the blame is exactly what women in our culture are expected to do in intimate relationships. I think Cordova's ideas can be transformational within relationships that are structurally equal. But for many women, taking on the blame for anything that goes wrong in the relationship is what she has been socialized to do. And it

• 1:18:30Shankar Vedantam?

  does not usually result in a male partner who is more understanding, emotionally available, and willing to take more blame himself. Talk for a moment, James, about how you think gender might play into this discussion.

• 1:18:44Speaker 10

  Gosh, it's such a good question. And it is certainly the case that we are all embedded and emerge out of a culture of gender socialization. You know, it's we sort of inherit it. We take it on without even knowing that we're taking it on. And upsides, downsides, but man, a lot of downsides for both men and women to the degree that that, you know, how I've learned how to enact my maleness, how I've learned to enact my femaleness, you know, becomes ritualized inside of the relationship. So I really understand, you know, where Susan is coming from, especially in the context of an abusive relationship,

• 1:19:28Speaker 10

  that we can find ourselves in a spot where I'm sort of being coerced to eat the blame. And I think the difference in that spot for me is in that sort of relationship, there the person who's eating the blame really doesn't have any agency. They're not using their agency. Their agency's sort of been taken from them. And the heart of eating the blame is really, what is the most skillful thing that I can do in this moment for the benefit of my partner, for the benefit of myself and for the benefit of the relationship simultaneously? And and sometimes that is to recognize

• 1:20:11Speaker 10

  that we are caught in a pattern that is diminishing me and therefore diminishing you. And to continue to perpetuate that pattern isn't really so much eating the blame as it is remaining stuck.

• 1:20:27Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm wondering if I can propose something of a test. Clearly, there are situations where people are in unequal relationships, abusive relationships. And I don't think I'm hearing you say that they should be consistently eating the blame in those situations. But equally, there are many situations where people are not in abusive relationships, but they find it really difficult to eat the blame. Is one test to ask yourself, is it my ego that is keeping me from eating the blame? And if the answer to that question is yes, that is a situation where you should try to eat the blame.

• 1:21:00Speaker 10

  Beautifully said. I think that's exactly right. That really does, as you're saying, capture for me what the difference is between the two. Because the, you know, eating the blame really is originally, right? It's a spiritual practice and it's a practice to help us manage the way that our own egos can scuttle the space of intimacy between ourselves and our partners. And so to the degree that we can do that, like recognizing is the thing that's keeping me from eating the blame right now, my ego? Then I know I'm engaged in the practice. And if the thing that is making me eat the blame is, you know, some unequal power dynamic

• 1:21:42Speaker 10

  in the relationship, it isn't my ego, then that's not the same thing.

• 1:21:48Shankar Vedantam?

  So strategies like acceptance and eating the blame are clearly not going to be panaceas for all relationships. And it's worth pointing out that not all relationships might be worth saving. We heard from listeners who were grappling with how to know whether their relationship fell into that not worth saving category. Here's a message we received from one listener who wanted to remain anonymous.

• 1:22:11Speaker 15

  James Cordova said that if something diminishes us as a person, then accepting it is too high a price to pay. How do I put that advice together with your acceptance advice? For example, let's say you're dealing with what you called a perpetual issue and the other person reacts in a way that diminishes you, criticism, name calling, et cetera. What do you do then? How do you ask them to see that? What I'm asking is, do you communicate that to someone to give them a chance to change? Can you even do that? Or do you have to come to terms with it and then choose whether you can live with it or not?

• 1:22:44Shankar Vedantam?

  So first off, James, I just want to say that I hear the anguish that this question springs from. But how do you draw a line between behavior that may be hurtful but changeable and behavior that is potentially abusive and a sign that you should probably end your relationship?

• 1:23:03Speaker 10

  Yeah, I can feel the anguish in the question as well. The first step, almost always, maybe to the point of always, does have to begin with a kind of radical acceptance. We have most likely changed everything that we can change. And it's hard sometimes to tell, is this a mezzanine level problem? And we just need to keep working it? Or have we, you know, reached that point when really what I'm dealing with, what you're dealing with are the places where the degree of change that we want is just not available. So when we start with radical acceptance, like,

• 1:23:46Speaker 10

  maybe this just is who you are and we've done our level best to change. And this is who I am and I've done my level best to change. And this is just the truth of who we are together? Sometimes we have to stop beating our head against the wall long enough to take a step back to see that the efforts that we are grappling with to try to get that change are actually part of what's keeping us stuck.

• 1:24:15Speaker 10

  And from that place, then we get to make, hopefully, a decision that's rooted in care for you and care for me. That the cost of admission for me, the cost of admission maybe for you into this relationship is simply too high. And then we can choose to move forward separately. But sometimes we can't make that choice until we've stopped trying so hard to change.

• 1:24:50Shankar Vedantam?

  When we come back, the payoff of doing the hard work in your relationship. Plus, we hear from listeners about their techniques to make relationships last. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 1:25:15Speaker 04

  Meet Craig. Craig manages the local haunted house. He's got a lot to juggle: tangled cobwebs, flickering lights, and scheduling vampires.

• 1:25:24Speaker 05

  Count, it's time for your break.

• 1:25:27Speaker 07

  I'll break when I'm dead.

• 1:25:28Speaker 05

  You are dead. That's like, your whole thing. Here, have a Kit Kat.

• 1:25:33Speaker 07

  Hmm. Fine. Fifteen minutes, but no longer.

• 1:25:37Speaker 05

  Good. I'm grabbing a Kit Kat, too.

• 1:25:39Speaker 04

  Nobody should have to wait until they're dead to take a break. Have a break. Have a Kit Kat.

• 1:25:46Speaker 16

  Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy. Live and uncensored, catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues, and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

• 1:25:58Speaker 17

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• 1:26:16Speaker 18

  If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Hi, I'm Sean Evans from Hot Ones, and I want to tell you about YouTube Premium. It has offline downloads, so you can watch without Wi-Fi. Background play, so you can lock your phone and it still plays, baby. Oh, and it is completely ad-free. Yes, I said it, ad-free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 1:26:49Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 1:26:53Shankar Vedantam?

  Have you ever met a couple who've been together for 40 or 50 years? We often assume that these people were an ideal match, and that the love that they have for each other is special and rare. But chances are good that these relationships succeed not because they are wildly in love or meant to be, but because they're adept at navigating conflicts and supporting each other through tough times.

• 1:27:18Shankar Vedantam?

  James Cordova is a psychologist at Clark University. He's the author of The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connection With Your Partner. James, I'd like to start this segment with a listener's story. It comes from Richard, who says he and his wife will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary next year.

• 1:27:38Speaker 03

  We are very fortunate to share similar outlooks on life. However, in our retirement, we have come up with a house rule that states, "He or she who is doing any task can do it any damn way they want." This applies to frying eggs, cleaning a room, or mowing the lawn, and any myriad of other endeavors. For us, this affirms that any differences in the time taken or in the final result are not worth undermining the self-confidence and abilities of the other person. It is not necessarily easy to do,

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  but it is very useful to be able to stand back and zip one's lip.

• 1:28:29Shankar Vedantam?

  I think what Richard is saying is that if one partner does the dishes, or mows the lawn, or handles the taxes, the role of the other partner is not to offer criticism, or feedback, or suggestions, or advice, but just say, "Thank you."

• 1:28:43Speaker 10

  Exactly. I love this. I love this example so much. And what Richard's sort of pointing out is that he and his wife have solved the chef-sous-chef problem. You can tell, they must have moved through a moment when they were giving each other a lot of feedback, right? When there were too many chefs in the kitchen, you know? And I love this, that they have made their own way to this place where like, if I'm making a souffle, stay out of my kitchen.

• 1:29:16Shankar Vedantam?

  Right.

• 1:29:17Speaker 10

  Let me make it my way. And when you're making the souffle, you can make it any way you want, right? Like, that too many chefs in the kitchen problem is real. Uh, and, and, you know, especially I, I love that this emerged after retirement.

• 1:29:31Shankar Vedantam?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:32Speaker 10

  Right. When, when, well, I didn't, I wasn't in the kitchen before and now I am. And we had to learn how to make room for each other. And I think the challenge when couples are, are resolving that chef, sous chef pattern is that you have to give the other person the space to, you know, burn an egg every once in a while until they develop their own, okay, this is how I do it. Uh, and we're both capable of doing things. And, and that's just a much more satisfying and it just turns out a much sexier way to be in relationship.

• 1:30:08Shankar Vedantam?

  Yeah. Here's another story of acceptance that we received from listener Nakia, who's been married for nine years.

• 1:30:16Speaker 19

  Beginning of my marriage, I was really focused on getting my husband to work out as much as I did, or just a little bit. Um, he worked from home, he didn't really work out much, and I just saw how it affected his mood and, um, his relationship with everyone. I used to like buy workout clothes, buy workout shoes, get the exercise, um, videos ready on the, on the Peloton, but he just was not into, the Peloton was for running, was for anything that I was really into. Over time, I just let it go and I just accepted that he was not maybe a workout person, but it just turned out that he just didn't like the type of exercise that I did. And he loves to play soccer.

• 1:30:57Speaker 19

  He found the soccer team and he plays soccer religiously in the morning. Um, and he gets the benefits of working out, um, without feeling like he's doing something he doesn't want to do in his love for soccer.

• 1:31:14Shankar Vedantam?

  So I think Nakia makes a really important point here, James. When we're trying to get our partner to do something, we often assume that if they don't like doing a specific activity in a given category, they're going to dislike every activity in that category. So if your spouse doesn't like running, it must be that he doesn't want to work out at all. Or if your partner doesn't want to go dancing with you on a Saturday night, it must mean that she only wants to stay home and be introverted. What are your thoughts on Nakia's story here, James?

• 1:31:44Speaker 10

  I love Nikia's story and I love how it just illustrates that it is not at all uncommon that pressure actually plugs the system. There's a phenomenon in psychology that we talk about as like control, counter-control, that when we are experiencing pressure that we can feel from others, it's almost a basic mammalian instinct to dig our heels in. Even if what the other person is trying to force us to do is something that we would like. Like, we really like chocolate and they're trying to like force chocolate in our mouth. And we're like, what are you trying to do? Get that away from me. So when we're pushing on a partner, we can often get pushback.

• 1:32:29Speaker 10

  That's just a natural human tendency. And the relationship can get stuck in that spot where it's like pressure resist, pressure resist. And if we can notice that that's happening, do what Nikia is talking about, like, oh, I noticed I tried and it didn't work. And then I tried and it didn't work. And then I tried and it didn't work. And then I tried, well, let me try something different. What if I step back and just like open the field? And let my partner find their own way. Then the system almost resets in a way where rather than having to resist you, now I get to like just seek around inside our shared environment and just have a much higher chance

• 1:33:14Speaker 10

  of finding my way into something that really does call to me. And so, you know, I love that she provided her partner with that space. And when he wasn't having to fight her anymore, he found his way to like, oh, this is the thing that moves me.

• 1:33:31Shankar Vedantam?

  You say that one benefit of acceptance is that it tends to generate what you call intimate safety. The sense that you can be fully yourself with the other person. What does this feel like, James?

• 1:33:43Speaker 10

  It it it feels like like comfort, right? It feels like what we're wanting to be able to offer to each other is that experience that you're my safe harbor. Of all the people in the world, you're the person who I most feel comfortable and safe being my actual authentic, vulnerable self with. Because I know that, you know, when it comes right down to it, you you love me and accept me just the way I am, including and maybe even because of the places where I I know I'm imperfect. I know this is a place where I get reactive. I know this is a place where I tend to fall down.

• 1:34:29Speaker 10

  You know, I'm doing my best out here, right? And and I know that for you, I don't have to be perfect. And with you, I'm safe. And and therefore, I get to try and even fail because I know that I'm in safe territory.

• 1:34:49Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand that you yourself had a powerful experience of intimate safety in your relationship with your wife, James, when she went away on a trip and you were very unhappy about it. Tell me what happened and and how it turned out.

• 1:35:04Speaker 10

  So my partner went away with some old, like, college friends to a concert. And there was something about it that just felt like, oh, I don't really want you to go, or I would want to go with you. I just sort of felt that kind of missing in it. But of course, you know, like, my my value is is to support my partner's autonomy. So this is something that you really want to do. I'm feeling a particular way about it, but I want to support you in doing it. And so please, go and have a wonderful time, which she did. But I noticed, you know, when she got back, that like, I was feeling really hurt and

• 1:35:47Speaker 10

  just a lot of sort of like sadness and upset about it. And I was trying to think my way through it, like, what is this about? And can I manage this on my own? And maybe I'm just being like irrational. And it was it was wholly irrational. Like, there was no, there was nothing logical about it. And the the key to intimate safety and the way that this played out in my relationship is that I knew it didn't have to be rational. I didn't have to justify what I was experiencing emotionally. I could still just take it to my partner and say, I can't defend this. I don't know where this is coming from, but I'm just feeling like really hurt.

• 1:36:29Speaker 10

  And maybe just a little bit, you know, I don't know, maybe it's abandoned in this spot. And I just need you to like know that and like care. And of course, you know, my partner met that with warmth and kindness and compassion and understanding. Uh, and for me, that really is the epitome of the experience of intimate safety. That something as vulnerable as this, you know, indefensible uh emotion that I'm having, it's still real and I don't have to hide it from her.

• 1:37:04Shankar Vedantam?

  Hmm. I'm wondering, James, whether separation can be useful in some cases to give a couple a break from their issues and gain perspective on their relationship. We heard from a listener named Ellen, who says she and her husband were married for decades and that she was the fern and he was the cactus in their relationship. She writes, I was desperate to have a loving marriage, but I think that all my striving pushed him away. Finally, after about 35 years, I was in so much pain, I asked for separation. We were apart for three years. When we came back together, we could appreciate the things that brought us together in the first place. During that time apart, we both learned and changed. It was as if we had pushed a big reset button.

• 1:37:49Shankar Vedantam?

  Our last 10 years together were really the best, being able to accept him as he was and him being able to appreciate me for who I was, changed everything. I lost him to cancer three years ago. I am finally starting to find my way without him. He was the only man I ever loved. I was able to tell him that I never stopped loving him and was able to be with him during his illness. It was a privilege to be at his side. James, you say that it can be sometimes helpful to do what Ellen did here. She reminded herself of what had first drawn her to her partner. What is the advantage of engaging in this kind of mental activity? And can a separation help people do exactly that?

• 1:38:32Speaker 10

  Such a beautiful story. And I love how she is, she's actually demonstrating that, that thing that we were talking about earlier about eating the blame, right? As, as she was able to reflect on their relationship and see, at least partly, I was pushing pretty hard. And like we were talking about before, he may have been resisting pretty hard. And that stuckness, they were unable to resolve while they were pouring so much energy into the stuckness, taking that step back. And boy, what a step back. Three years of stepping back to, to give ourselves space and to recapture all the

• 1:39:14Speaker 10

  energy that we were using to struggle with each other, to sort of nurture our own growth. And then to come back together and find a way of being with each other that, that again, reminded ourselves of who we actually are outside of the struggle, what initially attracted us to each other, and just all the other stuff that was here to be valued. So that, that space, the stepping away from the struggle, i- is often necessary in order to free that energy, to find a more collaborative and connected way forward. You know, they, they created that space and it actually led to growth and reconnection, which is wonderful.

• 1:39:58Speaker 10

  So, so we can create that space sometimes on our own i- inside the relationship. If we just step back from the struggle for a while and let something else grow in that space. And sometimes it's hard to DIY it. And, and we can benefit from bringing in a professional to help us discover how we're perpetuating the stuckness, so that we can begin to loosen it.

• 1:40:36Shankar Vedantam?

  James Cordova is a psychologist at Clark University. He's the author of The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connection With Your Partner. James, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

• 1:40:50Speaker 10

  Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

• 1:40:57Shankar Vedantam?

  Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Kwerel, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor.

• 1:41:17Shankar Vedantam?

  If you've gotten to the end of this episode and you still want more Hidden Brain, please consider signing up for our free newsletter. In each edition, we'll bring you new and interesting insights on human behavior, along with a brain teaser and a moment of joy. To sign up, go to news.hiddenbrain.org. That's N-E-W-S dot hiddenbrain.org.

• 1:41:41Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.

• 1:41:47Speaker 20

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