Wellness 2.0: Rising to the Occasion

From time to time, all of us are called upon to do hard or even seemingly impossible things. Do we rise to the occasion, or do we fall short? Today on the show, we examine the psychology of pushing through a crisis. We talk with psychologist Adam Galinsky about great leaders, and what they can teach us about being steadfast in the face of challenges.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 0:05Shankar Vedantam?

  There's an old saying attributed to Benjamin Franklin. Nothing is certain in life, except for death and taxes. But death and taxes are not the only guarantees. If we live long enough, all of us will experience great setbacks, crises that seem insurmountable, challenges that seem far bigger than we are. When we see others go through natural disasters or terrible illnesses, or the emotional upheavals that come from child custody battles or losing a livelihood, we think, how terrible for them. I'm so glad this didn't happen to me. But what we fail to see in these moments is that all of us are going to experience

• 0:47Shankar Vedantam?

  our own versions of these emergencies and tragedies. Having to deal with crises is an occupational hazard of being alive. What do we do in such moments? How do our minds respond when faced with catastrophe? And can we better prepare ourselves for their inevitable arrival? Today on the show, and in a companion piece on Hidden Brain Plus, we examine the psychology of battling a crisis. It's part of our series Wellness 2.0. What happens in our minds when we face danger? And what we can learn from those who prove steadfast in such moments? Techniques and strategies for responding better when life throws us crises, curveballs, and catastrophes.

• 1:32Shankar Vedantam?

  This week on Hidden Brain.

• 1:43Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from Pacific Life Insurance. You make promises throughout your life. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has been helping you keep them by protecting those who matter most. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Ask a financial professional how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska. And in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 2:15Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from LinkedIn. Hiring for a small business is hard. LinkedIn Hiring Pro acts like a helpful hiring partner. Chat with it about what matters most, compare candidates side by side, and share feedback like I want someone with more hands-on experience. Hiring Pro adjusts and services candidates who fit your needs. Get started by posting your job for free at LinkedIn.com/HB. Terms and conditions apply. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Dell. This Black Friday, give a gift that goes beyond the box, the Dell XPS 13 laptop.

• 2:55Shankar Vedantam?

  It's the thinnest, lightest XPS laptop yet, with a long battery life, beautiful design, and powerful performance with Intel Core processors. Find perks like Dell Rewards, fast free shipping, and flexible financing. Head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 3:23Shankar Vedantam?

  We are all called upon from time to time to do hard and sometimes seemingly impossible things. Do we rise to the occasion, or do we fall short? At Columbia University, psychologist Adam Galinsky has studied the science of decision-making and leadership. What it takes to rise to the occasion, and what happens in our minds when we don't. Adam Galinsky, welcome to Hidden Brain.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 3:49Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam, in January 2012, an Italian cruise ship carrying over 3,000 passengers and 1,000 crew members was on a seven-day voyage in the Mediterranean when it began to veer close to shore. It was unclear why this was happening, but eventually the ship, which was named the Costa Concordia, hit a reef. How deep was the reef, and what happened to the ship, Adam?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  You know, it was almost 30 feet below the surface, so the captain, Francesco Chitino, couldn't see it, but it just tore a gigantic hole in the bottom of the ship, basically rendering the ship inoperable.

• 4:24Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm assuming that water must have flooded the generators and engines. The ship must have come to a standstill almost right away.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It had a complete loss of power. There was a blackout that was involved, and basically, at that moment in time, this was essentially a shipwreck.

• 4:42Shankar Vedantam?

  So that's terrifying, Adam. But I'm guessing that when something like this happens, it's the job of the captain to take immediate action and begin rescuing passengers. Did that happen?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  That's not what happened at all. In fact, he did not alert the authorities immediately. In fact, he spent a considerable amount of time trying to go into crisis management mode, figure out how he was going to protect his own reputation, and come up with a story that wouldn't place the responsibility on himself.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  He tried to come up with a story to say that rather than the sudden blackout, which was caused, obviously, by the accident and the water rushing in, was actually the result of the accident, rather than vice versa. And his primary concern was, how am I going to protect myself? And he didn't spend any energy thinking about how he was going to protect the passengers.

• 5:35Shankar Vedantam?

  So when rescue efforts finally started almost an hour or maybe more than an hour after the ship first hit the reef, did Captain Francesco Chetino supervise and help passengers get off the ship?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  He did not. At the time that the Coast Guard was communicating with Chetino about the rescue, he was already himself in a lifeboat. And he claimed that he did not intend to be in a lifeboat, that he fell and stumbled accidentally into the lifeboat. So while everyone else was on board and panicking, Captain Chetino was safely in a lifeboat off of the ship.

• 6:15Shankar Vedantam?

  So let me just try and catch up with what's happening here. The ship has hit this reef. There's a gigantic hole in the ship. Water is flooding in. The passengers are fearing for their life. And the captain, instead of staying on board and helping the passengers, has himself gotten off the ship onto a lifeboat, but claims he did so accidentally?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely. That's exactly what he claimed. He said that he stumbled and fell and actually slipped into the lifeboat. And now, once he's in the lifeboat, there's no real reason to get off the lifeboat because he can, quote, "organize the rescue from there."

• 6:50Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand that he had a conversation with a member of the Coast Guard while sitting in the lifeboat. How did that conversation unfold?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Well, the Coast Guard was furious that he was in the lifeboat and they were demanding that he climb back up. And they gave him very specific orders. Climb back up, tell me how many people are on board, tell me how many women are on board, how many children on board. Gave him very clear instructions and Chitino kept giving sort of mumbled answers about why he couldn't possibly go back on board. And eventually just stopped responding to the Coast Guard member. And you could see, you could hear in the Coast Guard member's voice, his fury and infuriation just consuming him. And at one point, he was so furious, Ashitino, that he yelled, "I will get you for this."

• 7:49Shankar Vedantam?

  Is it true that Chitino somehow, in the middle of all of this catastrophe, had managed to change out of his uniform and was wearing something different when he got into the lifeboat?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  That is actually true. So if you were in the lifeboat and you were there with Chitino, you would not know that he was the captain of the ship. Because somehow, in the course of this panic state where everyone is running around trying to save their lives, he managed to change out of his captain's uniform into his civilian clothing before he, of course, stumbled and accidentally fell into the lifeboat.

• 8:25Shankar Vedantam?

  So the cruise ship hits a reef, it's wrecked, it starts to sink. The captain essentially abandons ship. What happens to the passengers on board that day, Adam?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  It was a disaster. I mean, 32 members of the passengers passed away, perished, lost their lives because of this. And when we look back at it, it's very clear that as soon as the damage was done, as soon as the Costa Concordia hit this reef, if Francesco Chitino had immediately called the Coast Guard, had immediately come clean, had immediately set up a process of rescue, it's very likely that every single passenger would have survived and with no injuries.

• 9:07Shankar Vedantam?

  The captain was brought to trial. He was asked why he steered his ship so close to shore in the first place.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Captain Francesco Chitino claims that he went closer to shore in order to salute mariners who are on the shore. The prosecutors, on the other hand, claim that he had a more nefarious motive or a more lascivious motive, which is his mistress, a dancer, was also on board. And they suggest he was trying to impress her with his captainship.

• 9:39Shankar Vedantam?

  Was Francesco Chitino held to account after the tragedy?

• 9:43Speaker 01

  He was. So, you know, I mentioned the Coast Guard said, you know, I will make you pay for this. And he was made to pay for it. He was sentenced to 16 years in prison for a variety of different counts, including abandoning his ship, but also manslaughter. But I think what's most interesting about the court case is that at no point would he take any responsibility. And he said, essentially, it's not my responsibility what happened.

• 10:09Shankar Vedantam?

  The story of Captain Francesco Chitino is an unsettling one, not only because of the tragedy that resulted from one man's poor judgment, cowardice, and selfishness, but also because of the uncomfortable questions it raises. Would you have responded differently in this scenario? After the ship started to sink, would you have done the brave thing? All of us would like to believe that we would act courageously in the face of danger. But in reality, we also know we are human. We too are prone to cowardice and selfishness.

• 10:52Shankar Vedantam?

  When we come back, why we crack in times of crisis and what we can learn from those who rise to the occasion. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Working as a dedicated Fidelity advisor, I always ask, what's important to you? I'll look at those priorities and goals alongside your full financial picture to build a comprehensive plan designed to help grow and protect your wealth. With proactive portfolio insights and an eye on taxes, I'm here to help you make the most of your money. I'm Laura Maxwell, and I'm a dedicated Fidelity advisor. Learn more at fidelity.com/wealth. Investment minimums apply. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 11:51Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from Quince. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on, whether you're heading to work, going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

• 12:35Shankar Vedantam?

  Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Hidden Brain.

• 12:51Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. In 2012, a cruise ship carrying thousands of passengers sank off the western coast of Italy, claiming the lives of 32 people onboard.

• 13:04Shankar Vedantam?

  It wasn't just a tragedy, but a preventable tragedy. Captain Francesco Shatino had no business steering the ship over a shallow reef, and his delay and inaction after the disaster cost many lives.

• 13:17Shankar Vedantam?

  Psychologist Adam Galinsky studies the science of leadership. He says the world is full of infuriating leaders like Francesco Shatino, but there are also great ones. These inspiring leaders, as he calls them, can teach us a lot about how to endure in times of crisis.

• 13:36Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam, let's talk a moment about some of the things that Francesco Chetino did wrong that day. Yes, he should not have steered his ship so close to shore, but can you lay out some of the psychological mistakes he made after the ship hit the reef?

• 13:49Speaker 01

  I mean, I think the first thing, he was focused on the wrong details, right? So he was focused on the story that he could tell about how this event happened, why there was this electrical blackout, et cetera, in order to, in some ways, save his own reputation. He missed the larger picture, the bigger picture, which was now this boat was flooding water. Eventually, it was going to capsize, and that was going to lead to potentially passengers' loss of life, which it did. And if he had immediately understood, okay, the boat's been injured, or it doesn't matter how it got injured at this point, the only thing that matters is, how do we get everyone off board as quickly as possible? And so he, I mean, the first mistake he made, right, was he was focused on the wrong thing.

• 14:35Shankar Vedantam?

  But besides not taking responsibility for what happened, I understand he even tried to pass the buck.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, he tried to blame it on the helmsman, for example, and blame other people. And so it was a classic example of deny responsibility. It's not my fault. But the basic fundamental error he made was he was in a leadership role. He was a protector and steward of a group of people, but he was only focused on himself and what he could do to protect himself. And in doing so, he essentially abandoned his duty as a leader, right? And he was no longer a leader, but a single selfish actor, working tirelessly on behalf of himself.

• 15:20Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam, let's take a look at a very different kind of leadership. In June 2018, 12 teenage boys on a soccer team in Thailand were on a hike with their coach. The coach was a 25-year-old man named Ekapul Chanta Wong, commonly called Coach Ek. The team was exploring a cave, and at one point, they decided to turn back. But what they didn't know was that weather conditions outside the cave had changed dramatically. Can you paint me a picture of what happened, Adam?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, they had been exploring this cave. They had walked about an hour into the cave. And what's remarkable about the story is when they went in, the sky was sunny. Like, they had no thought that a storm might be brewing, or they had to worry about that. It was the beginning of monsoon season, or some might say, monsoon season came early, and a sudden and torrential, you know, downpour came down that was so extreme that it it just flooded the cave. And so when they turned back, they had probably been walking a little distance back, when all of a sudden, they got to a certain juncture where they were supposed to essentially go right, and right was now filled with water, just completely filled with water. And so what Coach Eck did right then is he said, okay, we're going to try to find a way out.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  And so he decided to dive in. He tied a rope around his waist, and he told the members of the soccer team, you know, when I pull on the rope, pull me back out. But after about two minutes, he hadn't pulled on the rope, and they were panicking. So they pulled him back out, and it's a good thing they did, because he'd gotten a little stuck, a little disoriented, had not found a way out. He was starting to struggle, and they essentially saved his life.

• 17:05Shankar Vedantam?

  So as even more water surged into the cave, the boys were forced to go deeper into the cave to get shelter. Were they able to find it, Adam?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  At this point, the water had filled up kind of up to this juncture, so they kind of went in deeper. They knew they weren't going to be getting out any time in the, you know, next few minutes, and they decided to, we're going to be spending the night here. They lie down, they got together for warmth, and they slept through the night, and they woke up, and the first thing they noticed is that the water was creeping on them.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  They thought they'd gone deep enough, but they hadn't. There's even more water coming into the cave.

• 17:49Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm assuming they must have then retreated even deeper into the cave now as they tried to escape the water.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  They did. They, you know, at various points, they kept retreating deeper and deeper into the cave. And then at some point, they heard a sound. And they actually thought it was a helicopter. And they thought they were about to be saved. And they turned around and that sound wasn't a helicopter, but it was almost like a tidal wave coming towards them. The water was now surging. It wasn't just creeping on them. It was about to surround them and consume them. And they went as deep into the cave as they could, essentially in some ways to the highest point they could within the cave, almost on a ledge, if you will. And now they were surrounded by water on all sides. And this was about day five.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  And now they were, they were stuck with essentially nowhere to go.

• 18:41Shankar Vedantam?

  So this is completely terrifying, Adam. I can only imagine how scared the boys must have been. What did Coach Eck have the boys do as, as they were perched on this ledge?

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there's a couple of things that I think are really important to know about what Coach Eck did in this situation. And the first and most important thing he did is that he convinced them that he had a plan to get them out. And the plan was, we're going to dig our way out. We're going to go up through the roof and we're going to keep digging and eventually we're going to dig all the way to safety. And that's what they did from morning to night. They dug in shifts. Coach Eck dug harder than anyone else to the point his hands were bleeding. And they would ask him questions like, you know, how much longer? And he would say, just a little longer. And they all believed that they were working together to find this way out.

• 19:44Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand that to lift their mood, he would have them sing together to actually feel like they were a team doing something together?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. You know, and he understood that. And one of the reasons why he gave them this task of digging, I think he gave it for two reasons. One is to fill the day, right? To give them something to focus on so their their minds wouldn't fracture under the pressure and the panic. But also to give them a sense of working together as a team. They were a team. They were a soccer team. So they they knew how to work together. And so he created a sense of camaraderie, the sense of working together. And that prevented two things from happening, right? Like, mental breakdown, but also interpersonal breakdown. It really prevented conflicts of emerging within the team because they were working together as a team.

• 20:37Shankar Vedantam?

  He had the boy set an alarm for six o'clock every morning. And I'm wondering why he did this. Day and night must have made no difference in the darkness of the cave.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's something it's something that he instinctively knew and understood that we all need structure for our days. This is something that NASA astronauts have known for a long time, that when you're in space, they have them on an incredibly strict schedule. And so he understood, like, we're going to have a structure to the day. We're going to get up at six every day. We're going to dig, you know, until we're, you know, exhausted. And then we're going to sleep, and then we're going to get up, and we're going to dig again. Now, there's something really important to remember is they went into this cave with no food. They didn't have a single morsel of food on them when they went in. They went in this cave with no water. They didn't have any water.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Now, they did actually end up having some water. And that's also something really remarkable about Coach Eck is that he understood, they couldn't drink the muddy water that was surging around them, but there was water dripping through the roof. And he understood that because it was going through the mountain stones, it was essentially being cleaned. And so they were able to get water and give them that little bit of at least that type of nourishment that they needed.

• 22:02Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand that he had some of the stronger members of the team look out for weaker members of the team, so he was paying attention to people who might have needed a little extra help.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely. He was, in some ways, an incredible mentor, understanding the individual needs. The smallest member of the group, he constantly encouraged him, saying, "I know you can do it. You're strong. I believe in you." He would sing with them, right, to help lift their mood, but he would also meditate with them to help keep them calm. And I think the meditation is a particularly interesting one for two reasons. First, at some point in this time, the oxygen levels in the cave were getting dangerously low. In fact, they fell probably below life-affirming levels at certain points, and they still survived.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  And part of it was, by doing this meditation, he was helping them conserve energy but also use the oxygen more efficiently.

• 23:04Shankar Vedantam?

  So on the 10th day, the batteries of the boys' flashlights began to run out, and Coach Eck told the boys to turn off the flashlights and be with one another in the dark. It was then that they heard something, Adam. What did they hear?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  They weren't sure, but they thought they heard almost like a bubble come out of the water and the word "hello." And they were up on the sledge. The water had receded a little bit, and so they immediately kind of went down off the ledge towards where the water was, and they turned on their flashlights. And there, miraculously, were two British divers who had spent 10 days trying to get in there.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  They'd been there alone, without food, without water, without a way to call for help, without warmth, for 10 days, and they had been miraculously found.

• 24:02Shankar Vedantam?

  So when the divers found the boys, they had been searching for them for over a week and everyone had been expecting the worst. The parents of the boys were already grieving. But Adam, you say the divers were shocked when they saw the boys' demeanor. How so?

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Well, the divers say they were horrified at how they looked, right? They looked so emaciated, right? You could see the effect of 10 days of no food combined with all the effort they'd put into digging. But they were even more amazed by the demeanor of the soccer players. There wasn't a single trembling lip, right? They smiled. They seemed happy to see them. And they just were shocked that here was a group of people who'd suffered, in some ways, the most horrific deprivation possible. But that deprivation did not show on their facial expressions.

• 25:05Shankar Vedantam?

  So an army of people soon begins to extract the boys from the cave. And divers are relaying messages from each team member to their parents. What did Coach Eck tell the parents to make sure the parents were doing OK as well during this time?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  He, you know, he reassured them that the boys were going to be OK, that they were OK, that he was looking out for them. He also apologized for what happened. But, you know, he basically said, you know, "I'm with the boys. I'm taking care of them. They're going to be OK. You're going to see them soon. I'm very sorry for what you've gone through."

• 25:45Shankar Vedantam?

  So this is a remarkable story, Adam. And of course, the story could easily have ended in tragedy. If the storm were a little worse, maybe they weren't able to climb to safety. So lots of factors could have turned this into a complete disaster. But you say there are several things that Coach Eck did right during that time that helped the situation. And I want you to walk me through some of the choices he made and what we can learn from them. First of all, you say he was very careful about the words he used as he was talking to the boys. How so?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think he understood that everything that he said was going to have a huge impact, right, on the boys. And so he was very, very careful in a number of different ways. First, he never used words like trapped, right? He never used words like stuck, right? He never, he never emphasized that they were in a perilous state. He always, another thing that he did is that he understood that his strength was their strength. And sometimes he got overwhelmed and he, he needed to cry. He needed to let those emotions. But he, he understood that it was really critical for him to do that privately where they couldn't see it when they were sleeping, for example, because they knew if they saw him cry, it

• 26:59Speaker 01

  would break them and, and they would sort of lose sort of essentially all hope. So he understood that he had to focus. He, you know, understood that they needed a shared goal and that they really truly believed that they were working towards a real possibility. So he said, we're going to dig our way out and we're going to work towards that. And when they would say, you know, how much longer? He would say, just a little longer, right? It was always, we're making progress, we're getting there. Another thing he did was that he helped them craft a whole story about what was on the other side of their digging. So he created a story about an, an orange field that they would come out and there would be oranges right there that they could eat. And they had that at the end of

• 27:44Speaker 01

  the orange field, there is a little store and they would go in and they would get as much food and drink as they could possibly do. And then they would go back and they would get their bikes and they would ride home as if no one was looking them for the last 10 days. And so these three things, like very careful with his language, right? Never talking about being trapped or stuck, very careful about what he expressed emotionally so that he portrayed calmness and strength and optimism and hope. And then even not only giving them shared goal of, of digging their way out, but giving them what that shared goal was going to lead to, the Elysian fields and the other side of the cave that they, that they were working towards.

• 28:34Shankar Vedantam?

  So you've done some research looking at how hope can be a powerful motivator in times of crisis. You did some work with Thomas Musweiler of the London Business School. Tell me about this research and what you found, Adam.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've found, for example, that in negotiations, we can think about what we're trying to avoid or prevent in the negotiation, or we could think about what is their their hope, their ideal outcome is in the negotiation. If you get them really focused on that, it has this transformative effect on how they approach the negotiation. They become more optimistic, they become more assertive, but in a in a positive way, not in a sort of aggressive way, and they become more persistent. And because of that, they end up getting better outcomes.

• 29:22Shankar Vedantam?

  So Koczek also helped the boys focus on a shared goal. So rather than passively wait to be rescued, he told the boys that they had to dig their way out. Now, it well may have been impossible to do this. We actually don't know how much they would have had to dig or how far they would have had to dig to to break through the roof into this, you know, this paradise of of orange fields. But but having a task to do in common and feeling like they were in it together, that in itself was psychologically very helpful.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I will say one thing, it actually would have been impossible for them to dig because once they were discovered and we knew their exact location, one of the original ideas for getting them out was to drill a hole into the cave. But the rock was too thick and it was impossible to get to them. So they they their digging would eventually come up against shore rock. But we've known for a century of research that having a shared goal is unbelievably critical for helping any group stay together. A shared goal is critical for reducing conflict and helping cohesion.

• 30:26Shankar Vedantam?

  Now, you can see, of course, that Kochek was just a remarkable human being. He happened to be someone with these superhuman capacities. But in interviews afterwards, he credits his own training as a Buddhist monk to what happened in the cave. Tell me a little bit about that training. What happened during his own childhood that prompted him to get trained as a monk?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, he had a very tragic childhood, Kochek. His brother passed away, and his brother's loss literally broke the heart of his mom. And then she passed away, and then his dad passed away, and now he's an orphan. He was sent to a Buddhist monastery. And in this Buddhist monastery, he was trained, right, to be a Buddhist. And for nine years, he ate one meal a day, right? That's all he did. And that became actually a critical story in the cave because they would be like, "I'm hungry." And he says, "I know you're hungry, but your body can go much longer than you think it can without food." And so he could tell his own story from his own experience of like, "I've survived with little food.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  I know that you can survive with little food." Now, and also, being a Buddhist taught him the art of meditation, the art of remaining calm, the art of accepting the situations where we find ourselves. There's a phrase that I learned recently, which I really, really like, is, "We can't control the wind, but we can control how we use our sails." And I think Kochek is a great example of that. It's a very Buddhist thing, right? Like, we can't control the world around us, but we can control our reaction to the world and how we function within the constraints that we face.

• 32:20Shankar Vedantam?

  Now, of course, all of us are not monks and all of us have not had practice for nine years going with one meal a day. But that's not really the point of the story. The point is, when we're going through challenging times, we can all draw from our past experiences to try and get through what we're going through. Talk about a study that you conducted with Yoris Lammers. You had volunteers apply for a job interview, come into the lab, and then do a warm-up task. What was this warm-up task, Adam?

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we asked them to think about a time when they had power, when they were in control of a situation. And we had them to reflect on what it was like to have that power, to be in control. And so after that, we told them they were actually going to write an application for a job. We gave them a real job ad that existed. And we said, write, you know, a cover letter for this job. And everyone did that. And I should tell you that we had two groups of students, or two groups of participants, I should say, in this particular study. Half the people were asked to think about a time when they were in control, when they had power. But the other half were asked to think about a time when they weren't in control, when they didn't have power. They were a low-power person.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  They were dependent on others. And so what we're able to do is, by manipulating or varying whether they focused on a time when they were in control or not in control, we could see how reflecting on that positive type of experience would affect how they did in their job applications.

• 33:56Shankar Vedantam?

  So it's not just, in some ways, drawing from your experience that can make you more prepared. It's almost recalling those moments that actually give you the motivation we need to do difficult things.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And you know, what's interesting about this study is every single person in the study had moments in their life when they had power and when they didn't have power. And so it was easy for them to reflect on those experiences with that. And because it's extraordinarily effective at changing people's psychological orientations.

• 34:27Shankar Vedantam?

  So what is it about recalling a time when we were powerful or recalling a time when we felt powerless? Why does that change what we do in the present, Adam?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think what it does is it really puts us in this psychological mindset where we just look at the world in a different way. We approach the world in a different way. In the study with Yoris, what we did is we did so many different analyses of these different job applications and try to understand how they differed. And they didn't differ in a ton of different dimensions. They didn't differ in how positive or negative they were, for example. But the one thing they differed in is that people could really feel a higher level of sort of confidence or self-efficacy that was coming from the people that thought about a time when they had power. And one of the things that we've shown in our research over and over again

• 35:20Speaker 01

  is that recalling those experiences of being in control, of having power, really does make people more optimistic, right? And we already talked about how important optimism was for Coach Eck in that example. We've shown in our research that it makes people feel more connected to their true self, makes them feel more authentic. And we've actually shown in research, not ourselves, but some colleagues in Europe did some research where they told people they are going to now be videotaped and have to give a speech, which is incredibly stressful experience for people. And why they did this, they actually had them hooked up to electrical connectors to measure their physiological responses.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  And what they showed is that simply recalling a time when you had power, when you're in control, made people feel more in control, right? And their physiological arousal literally went down.

• 36:24Shankar Vedantam?

  Most of us will never be faced with the terrifying challenge of rescuing a group of children from a cave. But in our own lives, we all encounter challenges, sometimes big, sometimes small. A sense of hope and purpose can motivate us to keep going when times get tough. And recalling prior times when we were brave can help us to act more courageously. When we come back, what happens when we are called to address a crisis? And we have only seconds to act. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 37:07Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from Stripe. Stripe is built for whatever comes next. Because as your business scales, so does the complexity of fraud. New customers, new markets, new AI-driven attack patterns. Stripe Radar protects your business as it scales with the scale of the Stripe network. The more payments Stripe sees, the smarter its AI gets at detecting these patterns as they emerge. Stripe's network is so vast, it has seen $1.9 trillion in payment volume across millions of global businesses. In fact, when a card is used, there's a 92% chance the Stripe network has seen it before. All of this means fraudulent patterns across payments, accounts, and customer abuse can

• 37:50Shankar Vedantam?

  be detected, flagged, or blocked more easily. Based on the rules you set up, of course. Blocking bad actors, welcoming good customers, keeping more of your revenue, your revenue. Learn more about fighting fraud with Stripe at stripe.com/radar. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Mazda. Being safer on the road starts with the person behind the wheel. That's Mazda's philosophy when designing every vehicle. Their proactive safety features help keep you more aware, connected, and engaged during every drive. Which means your car does more than help protect you. It helps make you a safer driver, which helps protect everyone. That's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand.

• 38:33Shankar Vedantam?

  To learn more, visit MazdaUSA.com. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Southern New Hampshire University. Science consistently tells us, learning starts with motivation. That's why SNHU offers over 200 flexible, affordable, online programs to help you get where you want to go. Take classes that spark your curiosity, shape your skill set, and prepare you for what's next. A degree can help move you forward, no matter what motivates you. Start yours at SNHU.edu/brain.

• 39:18Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. It's easy to believe that courageous leaders are born courageous. They seem to embody the natural traits of heroism. In a crisis, they are cool, calm, and collected.

• 39:33Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam Galinsky is the author of Inspire: The Universal Path for Leading Yourself and Others. He says that influential leaders have skills that can be learned and improved with practice.

• 39:48Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam, I want to talk about a woman named Tammy Jo Schultz. She was a pilot for Southwest Airlines. And in April 2018, she was flying a plane from New York to Dallas when suddenly she felt an enormous jolt. How did Tammy Jo Schultz describe what happened that day?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Well, she described it that she honestly thought that she'd had a midair collision. She felt like a Mack truck, right? Or another plane had just driven right into her. And she immediately knew, after she felt this jolt, that something was wrong because all of a sudden, the cabin pressure was going thing. She realized they were losing oxygen very quickly. And she realized immediately this was going to be unlike any other flight she'd ever taken.

• 40:34Shankar Vedantam?

  What exactly had happened, Adam? What had happened to the plane?

• 40:37Speaker 01

  So what happened was their left engine had experienced catastrophic failure. It essentially exploded. And when it exploded, not only did they lose that engine, it's a double-engine plane, they could have flown with the other engine, but the explosion tore a hole in the side of the plane.

• 40:55Shankar Vedantam?

  Wow, so the debris had smashed through the cabin. I'm imagining it must have been chaos back in the cabin.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  It was absolute chaos. So first of all, very tragically, one of the passengers, who was sitting next to that hole, was sucked into that hole. She didn't get sucked all the way out, but her injuries were fatal. Everyone began to panic. People were frantically trying to get on Wi-Fi to write to their family and friends, saying, "I may never see you again. I love you." The flight attendants were panicking. You know, all of this was, it was just, yeah, pure chaos.

• 41:37Shankar Vedantam?

  So from the passenger's perspective in the cabin, the plane is free falling, total chaos. People thought they were going to die. But I want to play you a clip of the conversation between Tammy Jo Schultz and an air traffic controller.

• 41:51Speaker 03

  I understand you're in emergency. Let me know when you want to go in.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, we have a part of the aircraft missing, so we're going to need to slow down a bit.

• 41:58Speaker 03

  Okay, and are you, is your airplane physically on fire?

• 42:01Speaker 04

  No, it's not on fire, but part of it's missing.

• 42:05Shankar Vedantam?

  So she seems remarkably calm, Adam. Meanwhile, back in the cabin, people are sending goodbye messages to their loved ones?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely. One of the things that she realized immediately is they needed to descend, right? They needed to descend for lots of different reasons. One is the plane wanted to descend, so they wanted to do what the plane wanted to do. But also, obviously, oxygen was a big issue and the air pressure that was happening. And so they were actually doing what looked like a very fast descent, but was actually a controlled descent. And at a certain point, I think she realized, the panic of the passengers, how they might be interpreting that descent. And I think maybe the most remarkable thing that she did that entire day is she went on the loudspeaker and announced to everyone 10 words.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  People will talk about those 10 words as being the 10 most important words they've heard in their life. And those 10 words were, "We are not going down, we're going to Philadelphia." And so that 10 words let them know that there was a plan, that the going down was not chaos. It was not a precipitous fall, it was an orchestrated descent. And people have said, you know, those 10 words literally turned the plane from panic to possibility.

• 43:38Shankar Vedantam?

  So as the plane heads to Philadelphia, Tammy Jo Schultz takes control of the plane. What happens as they're coming in to land, Adam?

• 43:47Speaker 01

  The plane is not doing what it's supposed to be doing. She churns the plane and it doesn't churn. And she's so beflummoxed by this, she actually says out loud, and you can hear it in the recorder, "Heavenly Father." She's looking for guidance. And she finally decides to take a slightly risky move, I think with the rudder, and it churns at the last minute just in time.

• 44:10Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand that she comes in to land, but even as she's landing, she has the presence of mind to park right next to the fire trucks that are on the tarmac?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, every step that she did was remarkable. She lands, she gets it so that the fire trucks are on the left side, where the exploded engine was, in case there's a fire. She also does something else, which is really amazing, is she recognizes some of these passengers might just try to get out of the plane as fast as they can. And so she actually churned the flaps of the wings down to give people a little bit of a slide if they were going to try to do that. And so she was taking their perspective of a panicked passenger and what they might try to do as soon as the plane lands.

• 44:54Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand that after they got on the ground, she walked back into the cabin and actually tried to look each person in the eye.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this was not an uncommon thing for Tammy Jo, that when they had delays, she would often go back into the cabin, talk to the passengers. But this time, she went row by row, deliberately talking to each and every passenger, making sure they're okay. She came to a little girl. And this little girl was pretty freaked out. And she said, "You got to do something no one else has ever done before on any of my planes." And as her parents said, "She made our daughter feel special." And what's so funny is Tammy Jo talks about her voyage down the cabin. And she says that she was shocked afterwards that more people, more reporters,

• 45:44Speaker 01

  more people talked about that walked down the aisle and meeting and greeting each of the passengers to make sure they're okay, than talked about how she landed this crippled flight. And it shows how, in some ways, how starved we are for leaders who are compassionate and really connect to the people that they're leading.

• 46:06Shankar Vedantam?

  We talked earlier about how Captain Francesco Shettino panicked when his cruise ship was sinking. By contrast, Tammy Jo Schultz really kept her head during the crisis, Adam.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, and she was so incredible that when she was checked out by medical personnel afterwards, one of them asked her a question that totally confused her. He said, how did you get through security? And she's like, what are you talking about? He's like, how did you get through security with your nerves of steel? He says, I'm taking your vitals right now and you're completely calm. Like, your blood pressure's fine, your arousal's fine, your heart rate is normal. Like, how is that possible? And we heard that in her voice, the calmness in her voice, which is what was needed at that moment in time.

• 47:00Shankar Vedantam?

  You told me earlier in the story of Coach Eck that in some ways, what leaders do is magnified. So when they are upset, it has an effect on the people who are watching and observing them. When they are cheerful and optimistic, that has an effect on the people who are observing them. Here, perhaps Tammy Jo Schultz is always calm and always collected, but as a leader here, I think it was the case that her calmness and courage under pressure, those were traits or behaviors that became infectious.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So in general, our psychological states are contagious to other people. But that gets, they become truly, the word that you just used, infectious when we're leaders. And I've coined a phrase, I call it the leader amplification effect. And the idea that when we're leaders, all of our words, gestures, interactions, even our silences, right, become amplified, and that leads to intensified reactions. And so what we do as a leader really, really matters so much. And there's a code to the story about Tammy Jo Schultz that really takes into account this idea of like, the behavior of leaders matter. I told her she could take as much time that she wanted off, right?

• 48:17Speaker 01

  You know, and she could come back whenever she wanted to. And she was back flying, you know, a few weeks later. And she said she partially did it for herself to return to sort of normalcy. But she also did it for other people to show that that she had confidence and faith in Southwest Airlines and that she had confidence in flight and to like not let any conspiracy start to emerge, essentially what she said. So she's she understood that her actions were going to have an impact on other people. She was a leader on that plane, but now because of her reaction, she was a leader more broadly in the world. And she really understood her role, which is exactly what Captain Shatino did not understand.

• 48:59Shankar Vedantam?

  So there's something very interesting here, Adam. When when many of us think of power, we think of, you know, the iron fist of lacking emotion, being stern, being authoritarian. But in all the examples of powerful leaders who were successful that we've talked about today, there also seems to be a common thread of warmth and kindness. Can you talk about that? It's it seems that almost impossible, but in a moment of crisis, they were not just being competent, but they were genuinely caring about what was happening to the people around them.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think one of the reasons why these leaders are so remarkable is because they combine two elements that often don't go together in the powerful. One element is this sort of like courageous, agentic, self-assured, self-efficacious person. But the other is a person that looks out for others. It really elevates them into the realm of an inspiring leader.

• 50:00Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam calls leaders who have sharp elbows and confrontational styles "wire mesh leaders", and he calls people like Tammy Jo Schultz and Coach Eck "terry cloth leaders". The terms come from a series of experiments in the 1950s showing animals gravitate to objects that feel warm and inviting. As followers, he says, we can instantly tell when we are being led by a wire mesh leader or a terry cloth leader.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Sometimes wire mesh leaders can be very effective when they're trying to get people to coordinate their behavior or to go towards a particular course of action. But most of us need some terry cloth guidance, right? And you think about a pilot, right? A pilot is someone who has a task to do, which is to take passengers safely from point A to point B. But they're not just an aviator, right? They're also a protector of those people and they need to take into account their psychological states and what they need in order to be in a better place at any moment in time.

• 51:04Shankar Vedantam?

  So Adam, after doing this work, do you feel like you are more of a terry cloth leader when it comes to your own life?

• 51:11Speaker 01

  A key theme, I think, of inspiring leaders is that they reflect on their experiences and they think about the times when they did things well and they try to build off those, but they also think about the times when they didn't do things as well and they try to recover from those. I can tell you, just as one experience that I had is I had a father who was prone to vicious bursts of rage. Like he'd spill milk and he just would, his whole body would tense up and he would explode. And early on, when I was a parent with these two little kids, they would do something

• 51:51Speaker 01

  and it really felt like my dad had taken over my body and I would just explode. And I could immediately see the reaction in my child. I mean, he would go into a state of crying that was like just an ad hoc state of fear. And I trained myself over time to never have that reaction again. I probably had it a dozen times and I would just, I mean, he would go into a fugue state of crying as if like he was in an altered state, like I had shocked his system so bad. And I realized I could never do that again. And so I've trained myself. The other day, my son was really upset that we were going out and I just sat there with

• 52:35Speaker 01

  them and I was like, I know, it's so hard. I want to be with you too, you know, and I love you so much. I didn't react to his anger, his tears, his frustration. I was able to be there and every time I did it.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  It got easier the next time I did it. I was creating a habit, a practice of being empathic in there. And that's the key theme I think of Inspire that I think that I most want people to take away, which is that we can all learn to be more inspiring. We can all learn through reflection, through commitments, and through practice.

• 53:21Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam Galinsky is the author of Inspire: The Universal Path for Leading Yourself and Others. In my conversation with Adam, we discussed another powerful idea that is a core element of leadership in times of crisis. Leading is not about doing everything yourself. It's about enabling others. In our companion episode on Hidden Brain Plus, we explore how one specific superpower can transform the art of leadership. That episode, titled "The Power of Perspective," is available right now to subscribers of Hidden Brain Plus. This is a particularly good time to give our podcast subscription a try. We're extending our standard seven-day trial period for listeners on Apple Podcasts.

• 54:04Shankar Vedantam?

  Sign up in January, and you'll get 30 free days to try it out. You can sample Hidden Brain Plus by going to apple.co/hiddenbrain and click "Try Free." Again, go to apple.co/hiddenbrain and click "Try Free."

• 54:25Shankar Vedantam?

  Adam Galinsky, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you so much. It was my pleasure.

• 54:44Shankar Vedantam?

  Do you have follow-up questions for Adam Galinsky about leading through a crisis? If you'd be comfortable sharing those questions with a Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone. Three minutes is plenty. Then email the file to us at [email protected]. Use the subject line "Leadership." That email address again is [email protected].

• 55:11Shankar Vedantam?

  Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Powell, Kristin Wong, Laura Kwerel, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. Next week in our Wellness 2.0 series, how to figure out what you want from your life.

• 55:35Speaker 05

  We don't want to think that I chose the wrong thing. That creates dissonance, it's uncomfortable, and so we protect ourselves from that thought.

• 55:46Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.

• 56:01Speaker 06

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, remetipant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers

• 56:46Speaker 06

  and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NUR-TAC or visit Nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today. What do I gift my mom and nieces?

• 57:09Speaker 06

  Oh, Dad loves music.

• 57:13Speaker 07

  And my coffee obsessed bestie. All those great brands at Walmart, who knew? Shop gifts no love at Walmart.

• 57:30Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. And one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie.com.

• 58:01Speaker 07

  When an intruder approaches a home, they expect a camera. What they don't expect. Stop, this is Simply Safe. Police are on the way. Using smart AI cameras, live US-based agents help deter intruders in under 30 seconds. Don't just record a break in, stop it from ever happening. Plans starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 70% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplysafe.com/sxm. 30 seconds response time requires monitoring plan with outdoor protection starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplysafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.