You 2.0: The Path to Contentment

Many of us believe that hard work and persistence are the key to achieving our goals. But is that true when it comes to the pursuit of happiness? This week, we revisit a conversation with psychologist Iris Mauss, who explains why happiness can seem more elusive the harder we chase it, and what we can do instead to build a lasting sense of contentment. Then, we bring you the latest edition of our segment "Your Questions Answered." Behavioral scientist Alison Wood Brooks answers listener questions on how to be a better conversationalist — from what to do when the other person isn't contributing, to how to stop others from interrupting.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. In the summer of 1776, 33-year-old Thomas Jefferson drafted one of the most important documents in the history of the United States. The Declaration of Independence laid out a vision for a new country and said all men had God-given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

• 0:26Shankar Vedantam?

  Eighty-six changes to the draft were made by John Adams, Ben Franklin, and others. Like many writers, Thomas Jefferson is said to have been unhappy with the changes his editors recommended. But the line about how we are all entitled to the pursuit of happiness endured.

• 0:45Shankar Vedantam?

  In recent years, many elements of the Declaration of Independence have come under scrutiny, including its omission of women, the poor, and enslaved people.

• 0:56Shankar Vedantam?

  We've examined some of these ideas in an earlier episode that looked at Thomas Jefferson's complicated life story.

• 1:04Shankar Vedantam?

  Today on the show, we continue our U2.0 series with a favorite episode that explores Jefferson's psychological claim about what makes for a good life. What happens in our minds when we pursue happiness? This week on Hidden Brain.

• 1:30Shankar Vedantam?

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• 1:53Speaker 01

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• 2:23Shankar Vedantam?

  Support for Hidden Brain comes from Southern New Hampshire University. The brain isn't fixed, it's flexible. That means we're always capable of transformation. A master's degree from SNHU can help you build the skills to become whoever you want: a leader, career changer, dream chaser. With no set class times and low online tuition, SNHU makes grad school possible because it's never too late to learn something new. Get started at snhu.edu/brain.

• 2:58Shankar Vedantam?

  When you ask people what they want in life, nearly everyone will tell you they want to be happy. After all, that's the point of finding a great job, starting a family, or going on wonderful vacations. At the University of California, Berkeley, psychologist Iris Mauss studies a paradox associated with our pursuit of happiness. Iris Mauss, welcome to Hidden Brain.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 3:26Shankar Vedantam?

  Iris, about a decade ago, you achieved a major milestone in the life of a scholar. You got tenure at a great university. How long had you dreamed of becoming a professor at a school like UC Berkeley?

• 3:40Speaker 02

  I think forever. So this was a really big deal for me. I'd been working toward this for a long time and had been really looking forward to that moment, hoping I would get tenure. Getting tenure is a big deal, of course. I would get to be with the most lovely colleagues I could imagine and doing what I love in a beautiful area.

• 4:06Shankar Vedantam?

  Now, whenever I visit UC Berkeley, I'm struck by how beautiful it is. I mean, Berkeley really is absolutely gorgeous. So, mission accomplished, Iris?

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Well, not quite.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  It wasn't quite the way that I had imagined. It's sort of like the saying, wherever you go, there you are. So I was still the same person somehow. And worries and stressful things still happened. Although at first, at least in the sort of year after getting tenure, those sort of small worries hit me almost more than before because they had this element of, wait a minute, shouldn't I be happy all the time? Is there something wrong with me that I have tenure now?

• 5:00Speaker 02

  And yet, I still have worries in my life.

• 5:05Shankar Vedantam?

  I understand you had a similar experience more recently, Iris. When you took a trip to the Italian island of Sardinia, what was your state of anticipation before the trip?

• 5:16Speaker 02

  This was the first trip I took in a really long time. And I was gonna get together with my very oldest childhood friend. She lives in Germany. I hadn't seen her in two years. And we had this trip planned. I thought, this is just gonna be amazing. I'm gonna be relaxing. I'm gonna be happy. I visualized it almost like one of those Tuscan Italian movies. You know, we would be on the beach, we would be drinking wine, eating delicious food. We would go boating around the little island

• 5:59Speaker 02

  and just floating happily in those beautiful turquoise waters. So I had every expectation and so much anticipation that it would be just the perfect ten days.

• 6:18Shankar Vedantam?

  So what happened, Iris?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Well,

• 6:25Speaker 02

  we had a lovely time. But little thoughts or moments snuck in where I would be thinking about work or I would worry about something going on at home. So these little thoughts started to appear and I would think, wait a minute, this isn't right. This isn't supposed to be here, this thought. What's going on? Have I lost the ability to relax? Is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with the vacation? Why am I not happy every moment of every day?

• 7:06Shankar Vedantam?

  So you're on this trip with your childhood friend and her partner. Did your restlessness affect your travel companions too?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  I think I maybe I drove them a tiny little nutty because I started to suggest sort of all kinds of things to bring about the continuous happy state that I had anticipated. So I would say, let's go to this other beach today or let's rent a boat and go around this little island or let's go to a different restaurant. And maybe that was a little bit much for them.

• 7:43Shankar Vedantam?

  I have a colleague who describes vacations like this as march or die.

• 7:50Shankar Vedantam?

  There's no sitting in one place. You either march or you die.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  A little bit like that.

• 7:59Shankar Vedantam?

  I want to ask you about another episode in your life, Iris, and I think this one reveals how our approach to pursuing happiness is something we do not only for ourselves, but something we encourage in other people, including our kids. Back home in the Bay Area, you got busy throwing a party for your son's eighth birthday. What were the preparations for the party like?

• 8:20Speaker 02

  I mean, I always try to make his birthday parties really nice, but this one in particular, I wanted it to be perfect. And so I had reserved a picnic spot at the local park. I got a coronavirus pinata, where you sort of bash a pinata that looks like a coronavirus, filled it with candy, lots of games that I had thought of, and decorations, of course. My friend, who's an amazing baker, made this enormous stunning cake. And of course, we had pizza.

• 9:02Shankar Vedantam?

  And when you visualize what this party would be like, I'm imagining you saw your son just basically being ecstatic the whole time and frolicking and playing with his friends.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. Ecstatic the whole time, frolicking, bathed in golden rays of sunlight. Exactly like that.

• 9:29Shankar Vedantam?

  So I almost hesitate to ask you the question, given the pattern that we're starting to see here, Iris. But how did the party turn out when you arrived on the big day?

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Well, the first thing that happened was that, this is in June, and it never rains in the Bay Area in June, never, except that one day. And it was raining the morning of the party. So we had to sort of switch gears, like sort of texted everybody, "Come a little later", hoping, crossing my fingers so it would stop raining. We still went to the park to set up because my son was very impatient and intent on having his party. So we go in the rain, we're setting everything up, we're getting drenched.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  And of course, people, I told them to come a little later, but my son had the start time of the party in his head, 11 o'clock. And 11 o'clock comes, nobody is there yet, and he starts to lose it. And I still sort of have that image in my head of him sort of standing in the rain, getting drenched, falling.

• 10:52Shankar Vedantam?

  And you must have felt like your heart was breaking because you had put so much time and effort and thought into making this the perfect party.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was really upset, but it did stop raining and we went ahead and other things went wrong, of course. The pinata, you know, had gotten drenched in rain. And so when the pinata bashing was supposed to happen, it took just one swing and the whole thing just sort of sadly flopped down. And kids, they didn't want to play the games that I had planned for them. They did their own thing. And it was a big disappointment

• 11:41Speaker 02

  and sort of like bordering on disaster. When my son was bawling, standing in the rain, I thought, wow, this is actually the worst birthday party ever.

• 12:02Shankar Vedantam?

  What Iris did is something we all do. We dream about what it would feel like to accomplish something, to get something, or to be somewhere. We imagine how it would feel if we got into a great school, or found a great job, or fell in love with a perfect person who loved us back.

• 12:21Shankar Vedantam?

  Sometimes when those dreams don't work out, we are heartbroken. But even when they do work out, we often feel let down, cheated. We achieved this difficult thing, obtained this amazing relationship, accomplished our dreams. Why we find ourselves asking, are we not happier?

• 12:41Shankar Vedantam?

  When we come back, the problem with our theory of happiness. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 13:01Shankar Vedantam?

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• 13:34Shankar Vedantam?

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• 14:19Shankar Vedantam?

  Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Hidden Brain.

• 14:30Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Iris Moss has firsthand experience about what it feels like to chase a dream only to feel let down when she obtained it. In her research as a psychologist at UC Berkeley, she has run a number of experiments to try to understand the phenomenon. Iris, lots of our listeners are people who are used to working hard to accomplish difficult things. If happiness is the most important goal of all, we tell ourselves, OK, let's work at it. Let's accomplish it. You've studied people who chase after happiness in this way. What do studies reveal about their mental health and well-being?

• 15:08Speaker 02

  We found that people who are very intent on being happy, those same people, somewhat ironically, in general, have lower levels of well-being, higher levels of depressive symptoms, and, paradoxically, lower levels of overall happiness. So it seems that the more, perhaps the more intent they are on being happy, the less they actually manage to be happy.

• 15:45Shankar Vedantam?

  So your research has identified several reasons for this. One has to do with the effects of high expectations. And perhaps we've heard some echoes of this in the stories you told us about becoming a tenured professor at UC Berkeley or the vacation in Italy. What is the role of high expectations in shaping our experience of happiness, Iris?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  High expectations in other life domains can be a good thing, right? We might strive toward doing really well in school and then we work hard toward getting a good grade. We might fall short of it, feel disappointed, and that might motivate us to work harder. But in the domain of happiness, there's sort of a paradox there, right? In that if we're disappointed when falling short of our goal that we're striving for, the high standard, that disappointment in itself contradicts the very goal.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  So the more we strive toward the goal of happiness, the more we undermine our ability to actually get there.

• 17:02Shankar Vedantam?

  And of course, once you actually get there, even if the experience is very good, but not perfect, it might still fall short of the very high expectations we had.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 17:16Shankar Vedantam?

  So you've cited a study carried out by the psychologist Jonathan Schooler and his colleagues. They studied people getting ready to celebrate the start of a new year. Tell me what the study found, Iris.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this was actually for New Year's Eve 2000. So it was a particularly big one. And a lot of people had really high expectations for what the big millennial New Year's Eve celebration would bring. And they asked people ahead of time how happy they expected to be and how much time they spent planning for the New Year's Eve celebration. First on, they found that 83% of people were actually disappointed with the celebration.

• 18:05Shankar Vedantam?

  Wow.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  And then the second really interesting thing that they found is that the more enjoyment participants expected having, the more disappointed they actually ended up being. So it's not like greater expectation and working more toward enjoying the party would pay off with greater enjoyment. Actually, the exact opposite happened. More expectation, less enjoyment.

• 18:39Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm assuming this means that people who plan bigger parties might paradoxically have been less happy than people with smaller gatherings.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  That's exactly what they found.

• 18:49Shankar Vedantam?

  There's another reason that chasing happiness can have the inadvertent effect of chasing it away. What is the effect of checking to see if we are happy on our experience of happiness?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Checking how happy we are is very much so bound up with thinking that happiness is an important thing. And it's also something that we do, I think, very automatically. In all of the examples I think that I gave from my own life, it's very much so that the moment I checked in on how happy am I? How is this going? That's when I realized, oh, actually, I'm not quite as happy as I hope to be. And various studies allude to that, or have examined that relationship between what's

• 19:45Speaker 02

  called experiences, hedonic experiences, and meta-consciousness. So that sort of overlay of being self-consciously aware of how we're feeling. One domain of research where this has been examined is in the research of flow. And this is research by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He and colleagues have shown that when people are in a state of flow, they report later on being incredibly happy. So it's a state of deep happiness.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  But what's important is that it's also characterized by being completely unaware of the self. So it means that the self almost feels like it's dissolved during these states of flow. And in fact, it's interrupted and destroyed when you check in with yourself and ask, how am I feeling now?

• 20:54Shankar Vedantam?

  I'm reminded of something that the 19th century philosopher John Stuart Mill once noticed. He said, "Ask yourself whether you are happy and you cease to be so." And that's saying exactly what you're suggesting, Iris, which is that the act of turning that spotlight inward and asking, "Am I happy?" Even when you are happy, it tends to have the effect of diminishing the experience of happiness.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Yes, so those ideas have been around for a long time. John Stuart Mill thought about hedonic experiences, of course, a lot. And there's another quote that I really like and that gets to the heart of another problem with striving too much to be happy. And he said, "Those only are happy who have their minds fixed on some object other than their own happiness, on the happiness of others, on the improvement of mankind, even on some art or pursuit, followed not as a means but as itself an ideal end. Aiming thus at something

• 21:59Speaker 02

  else, they find happiness by the way."

• 22:05Speaker 02

  And I really like that quote because it gets at another problem with overvaluing happiness or valuing it in the wrong way. And that's the idea that if we strive for our own happiness at the expense of what's going on around us, that's when things can go wrong and backfire.

• 22:32Shankar Vedantam?

  In many ways, Iris, this gets to another idea I wanted to talk with you about, which is, is it possible that one reason pursuing happiness is an ineffective strategy is that we often don't know what it is that's going to make us happy? And so by pursuing things that we think will make us happy, we sometimes take our eye off the ball of the things that actually will make us happy.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  I think that's really right. Dan Gilbert and others have found that humans are actually pretty lousy at knowing what will make them happy. And one of the things that makes people most happy is spending time with others and being connected and close to other people. And sort of this overly intense pursuit of one's own happiness that can come at the expense of connecting with other people. We did a study that gets at that question, asking whether

• 23:37Speaker 02

  if we don't pursue happiness in a way that sacrifices connection with other people, maybe we can get around the paradoxical effects of overvaluing happiness. And we took advantage of the fact that cultures differ with respect to what happiness tends to mean to people. And we sampled participants from cultures that are more socially oriented, East Asian cultures, Japan and Taiwan, all the way to cultures that tend to be more individualistically oriented, less socially oriented, the US.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  And then we had two cultures in between, Russia and Germany. And in each of those samples, we asked participants how much they valued happiness, but also what happiness means to them. And then we looked at their overall levels of well-being. And what we found was really interesting because it suggests a way to get around that paradox that we've been talking about. So in the US, we found that valuing happiness was very much bound up with a more individualistic, less social pursuit of happiness.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  And here we found that exact link that we've been talking about. The more people valued happiness, the less happy they were.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  But then, as we went in the social direction on that gradient to Germany, to Russia, to East Asia, we found that pursuit of happiness was more and more connected with helping other people and being close with other people. So what we found is that the more socially people interpret the value of happiness, the more that valuing happiness was associated with higher levels of well-being.

• 25:54Shankar Vedantam?

  So we've looked at several ways in which pursuing happiness in a very individualistic fashion can paradoxically make us less happy. It ramps up our expectations, which diminishes our satisfactions. It causes us to ask ourselves if we are happy, which is often not a good way to actually experience happiness. And it makes it more likely that we will turn away from others and experience loneliness. I want to talk about one other really important idea, Iris. Besides chasing happiness, many of us also spend a great deal of time trying to escape unhappiness. I want to take you back to your days as a graduate student and have you tell us about the negative emotions you experienced whenever you had to make public presentations about your work.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  So like many people, I used to have anxiety about speaking in front of audiences. And as a psychology graduate student, when I first started to have to give research presentations, this anxiety was actually pretty intense, almost overwhelming at the time. And I remember particularly clearly, I think this was the first talk I had to give as a graduate student to faculty and other students in the area I was part of. So maybe a group of 30 people. So for weeks before that talk and any talk, I would have all these worries circling through my head

• 27:25Speaker 02

  about all the incredibly foolish things I would definitely say, how I would freeze, sinking feeling of doom really, and lots of sleepless nights, which doesn't particularly help. So my approach was to think, well, wait a minute. I need to get rid of this anxiety, telling myself, it's just a speech, come on, get it together, try to ignore it. But, and I think this is pretty common, the anxiety would always return, and maybe even stronger than before, because it would then return along with

• 28:09Speaker 02

  the feeling that it confirms there's something wrong about me.

• 28:14Shankar Vedantam?

  And this is so revealing, Iris, because what was happening here was not just that you were distressed, but that you were distressed about being distressed.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  Yes, so these were what's called negative meta emotions, so feelings about my feelings. And those were almost worse, maybe, than the initial round of feelings, because there's a saying that goes, pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. And these meta emotions, that's the suffering that we layer on top of negative emotions.

• 28:54Shankar Vedantam?

  Iris, I'm wondering, did these concerns and I guess these concerns about these concerns, were they serious enough that you started to think that maybe you were not cut out for this kind of career?

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. Because giving research presentations is a really big part of the job. And so it just became so bad that I considered dropping out of grad school.

• 29:22Shankar Vedantam?

  One of the things you just told me you did when you had these negative thoughts was to try and find ways to suppress them, to make them go away. And I think many of us do this. You've reviewed research that finds that ignoring or pushing away negative feelings can negatively affect how we relate to other people. Tell me about this research, Iris.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there's quite a bit of research on this, how suppressing our own emotions can be bad for ourselves, but also especially bad for interpersonal contexts. So in a recent study, we brought dating couples into the lab and we had them carry out two conversations. The first one, we wanted them to talk about something that is a problem in their relationship. So things like, how often do you visit each other's families? Disagreements about finances? Disagreements about housework?

• 30:24Speaker 02

  And so the couples had basically a fight in the lab. And then we had them carry out a positive conversation where we told them to tell each other how much they appreciated one another and what they loved about one another. And those were lovely conversations. Now, after each conversation, we asked them how much they had suppressed their feelings while they had talked with their romantic partner. And we also asked them how well they thought the conversation went and how connected they felt to one another.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  And what we found is that no matter whether we were looking at a fight or at the loving conversations, when people said that they had suppressed their emotions, and that was true for positive and for negative emotions, the more they suppressed them, the less they shared them with their partner, the less well the conversations went and the less connected they felt to one another. So that suggests that holding back emotions, even if it's negative emotions...

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Seems to disturb social connection.

• 31:59Shankar Vedantam?

  As we've heard, chasing happiness in a highly individualistic manner does not work. Trying to elude unhappiness doesn't work either. When we come back, what does work? You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 32:24Speaker 03

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• 33:54Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. The conventional way most of us go about accomplishing anything is to work hard at it. When it comes to happiness, many of us say, "If this is something I really want, I need to go out and get it." This might be especially true in the United States, where the Declaration of Independence celebrates the pursuit of happiness. The problem is, pursuing happiness can have the paradoxical effect of chasing happiness away. Trying to elude unhappiness can be similarly counterproductive.

• 34:31Shankar Vedantam?

  Psychologist Iris Moss has spent many years asking herself what does work when it comes to living a happier life. A crucial moment of insight came from her own life.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so when my son was really little, baby, I'd say between six months and maybe it went all the way till three years. He would have what is sometimes called "witching hour", which is exactly what it sounds like. It's long hours of crying and fussiness. And so he would cry, "It's time to go to sleep. I needed to rest." I would rock him back to sleep and really, really gingerly put him in his crib. And he would instantly wake back up and it would start over,

• 35:26Speaker 02

  repeating itself up to like two hours, maybe even more at a time. And I remember being really distressed about it just because it's exhausting, unpleasant, but really thinking, "Here's my poor baby. He ought to sleep peacefully. What am I doing wrong?" So just asking, "What's wrong with me? What's wrong with him? Why can't I get him to be peaceful, comforted? Why isn't he happy?" And really, the more frantically I'm trying to comfort him, the more upset he and I would become, sort of like a vicious cycle, really.

• 36:13Shankar Vedantam?

  So there came a moment when you changed your approach to his distress. Tell me what happened, Iris.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it kind of came to a head because I read one too many sleep advice books. You know, they all tell different advice. Keep a schedule, go with the flow, hold the baby, rock the baby, bounce the baby, blow a hair dryer on the baby, keep it quiet, get the baby used to the noise, that kind of thing. And as a new parent, it really can drive you a little nutty. I think it just came to a point where I was reading all that and I'm like, I can't do this. And I realized, in a way, it was really not in my control because trying all these

• 37:05Speaker 02

  things hadn't yielded the expected, hoped-for effects. So in a way, I hit a wall and I had to accept what was.

• 37:20Shankar Vedantam?

  What did you do differently once you had this realization?

• 37:24Speaker 02

  I didn't do anything differently, but my perspective on it changed. And I let go of the art to control it. He ought to be peaceful. He ought to go to sleep. He ought to be happy. And that perspective change was almost like a little magic because the moment I changed my perspective, that very moment, a lot of the tension just left. He still cried.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  So it didn't change anything about the crying per se, but the moments or the times of crying almost became... Pleasant? I mean, it's weird to say that, but it was almost pleasant because it wasn't something that I had to make go away that I was layering all this judgment on. But rather, it was something that we shared. And I thought, well, he's comfortable showing his distress to me. And it sort of was an experience that we shared together. And part of the richness of our relationship, in a way, rather than something to try and avoid.

• 38:48Shankar Vedantam?

  So you went on to conduct research on the effects of practicing emotional acceptance. Can you tell me what effect this has on our moods when we do it, Iris?

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so people differ in the degree to which they tend to accept their negative emotions. So some people naturally do something that I had a hard time doing. They encounter negative emotions and they don't judge them as good or bad. Other people have a tendency to do what I did, which is tell themselves, I shouldn't be feeling the way I'm feeling. This is wrong. And what we found is that the less people accept their negative emotions,

• 39:42Speaker 02

  the more depressive symptoms, the more anxiety symptoms they experience, and the less well-being they have. And this, by the way, tends to be true for men and for women across different ethnic groups. And in that same study, we also wanted to find out why that is.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  And we tackled that question in two ways. In one study, we brought people into the lab. And we had them ironically give an impromptu speech that people tend to find stressful. It's a really common anxiety. And so we measured how much negative and how much positive emotions they felt. And people who tend to have an accepting mindset responded to the stressful speech with less negative emotion. They, on the whole, felt a little bit less anxious

• 40:51Speaker 02

  and a little bit less distraught. And there was another part of the study where we gave people daily diaries. So every day for two weeks, we asked them, what was the most stressful thing that happened to you today? And what were your emotional responses to that? How much sadness, how much distress did you feel? But also positive emotions. How much strength? How much hope? How much joy did you feel during your day's most stressful event? And what we found was that

• 41:34Speaker 02

  people who have an accepting mindset in their daily diaries reported feeling less negative emotions in response to the day's most stressful events. And in turn, that emotional response explained why, six months later, those same people had better mental health. So these sort of daily emotions in response to daily adversity seem to be a really important active ingredient in that link.

• 42:18Shankar Vedantam?

  You know, as I'm listening to this, to these ideas in this research, I can't help but reflect on the fact that there have been, you know, philosophical and religious and spiritual traditions going back probably many centuries around the world that have talked about the same ideas, the ideas that you should actually accept your emotions for what they are, you shouldn't get overly caught up in those emotions. Do you sometimes reflect on the fact that your work as a psychologist in the 24th century in some ways is mirroring the work of, you know, ancient scholars and sages?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. So many of those ideas have precursors in world religions and philosophies. And one of the biggest representation of that idea is Buddhism, of course. And Buddhism is the precursor to mindfulness. And acceptance is a really big part of the larger philosophy of mindfulness. And so there's a huge intellectual debt owed to Buddhist scholars as well as Buddhist practitioners and researchers on mindfulness.

• 43:42Shankar Vedantam?

  You know, I'm wondering whether this idea of emotional acceptance might be especially hard to, you know, accept for Americans. You know, many Americans, I think, might associate acceptance with ideas like resignation or defeat. I'm wondering whether your participants in your studies ever report that, Iris?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  That's a great question that we are really concerned about because we wouldn't want people to accept bad, unjust situations, even if it helps them feel better. And so in the research, we also asked participants about their tendency to accept bad situations in addition to their tendency to accept their own emotions and their own negative thoughts.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  And this is really important because these beneficial effects of accepting your own emotions and thoughts were connected with better mental health, while accepting bad situations was not. So it's a separate thing, and accepting how you feel does not mean accepting and resigning yourself to bad situations.

• 45:12Shankar Vedantam?

  In other words, I might feel badly about something, and I can accept that I'm feeling badly about something, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm turning a blind eye to the thing that's actually making me feel bad.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. And I think actually it might help people in a way to address bad things in their lives. Because if you look your negative feelings in the eye and don't get overwhelmed by them, that might help you more effectively deal with addressing bad, unjust, stressful situations.

• 45:56Shankar Vedantam?

  Do people ever share the worry with you that accepting negative emotions means that those negative emotions are now going to stick around forever?

• 46:06Speaker 02

  I think it's a really common worry, and it explains something that's a little bit of a mystery, which is acceptance sounds really easy, right? You literally don't do anything. You have your emotions, they're there. You don't try to control them. You don't spring into action. So it sounds incredibly easy. And yet, we have a really, really hard time doing that. Even I myself, I've seen the benefits so often. I still, my first instinct is often to, ooh, bad, make it go away, quick.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  And I think the underlying belief is that I'm going to get overwhelmed by it, and so I need to clamp down on it quickly. So I think it's a really deeply ingrained... Belief that many of us have. And it explains why we don't naturally embrace acceptance. We don't do it all the time.

• 47:17Shankar Vedantam?

  So we've been talking about the importance of accepting feelings of unhappiness, negative emotions. But we started this conversation talking about the problem with chasing happiness. You mentioned earlier that having high expectations for happiness can be a prescription for disappointment. What should we do instead, Iris?

• 47:37Speaker 02

  I think one overall recommendation is to have an accepting mindset for both our negative and our positive emotions. Don't monitor as much. Don't try to avoid. Don't try to strive too much for something else. One way to think about this is that it kind of replaces a mindset of I need to be with a mindset of I prefer. So I think we can still have preferences.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  The problems come in where we tell ourselves, I must feel a certain way or else I can't have a good life. That's, I think, what we need to avoid. So preferences with a light touch are good for our mental health and well-being. It's the need and the concern that we want to get away from.

• 48:49Shankar Vedantam?

  So if you could take this insight back to when you were setting up that birthday party for your son in a park as it's raining, what would you tell yourself in that moment, Iris? What would you advise that Iris today?

• 49:05Speaker 02

  I would tell myself that it's okay to prefer to have a wonderful birthday party, but that I don't need it to be the perfect birthday party, where all the kids are completely happy 100% of the time. And that my son and my life and all the important things are gonna be okay, even if it's not.

• 49:42Shankar Vedantam?

  You know, I'm thinking about the fact, Iris, that there are so many books and podcasts and blogs about how to be happier. And in some ways, they constitute something of a happiness industrial complex. And this industry tells us that we need to work hard at being happy. And in so many ways, it sounds like you're saying we need to do exactly the opposite.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Yes, I would say that. Feeling joy, feeling happiness is a universal human preference. So I'm not saying we should get rid of all of those books and all of the advice, but I do think we need to fine tune a little bit just how single-mindedly we go about the pursuit, as well as how we go about that pursuit. So connecting with other people, engaging in experiences over material goods, those are things that tend to work.

• 50:44Shankar Vedantam?

  So I'm wondering, Iris, after studying the power of acceptance, both when it comes to dealing with unhappiness, as well as when it comes to dealing with happiness, has this changed your own life? Do you find yourself in moments being able to tell yourself not to judge your negative or positive emotions, but just to accept them?

• 51:07Speaker 02

  It's actually pretty difficult to do, at least for me, because the way we encounter happiness, the way we encounter positive and negative emotions is really deeply ingrained in our upbringing and in our culture. So these are deeply ingrained habits of the mind. And so even though it's literally doing nothing, not judging, not trying to control, it can be really difficult for people to do it. But I absolutely try to do it. And one example where I feel like I succeeded is when I reconnected with my childhood friend

• 51:52Speaker 02

  after a really long time. She actually had gone through cancer and had surgery and chemotherapy. She was in recovery, but still seeing her physically, it was difficult. And there were many feelings of sadness and grief for seeing what she had to go through, the toll it had taken on her body. And I think I managed to stay with those feelings because I was able to see how the journey of going through cancer, it's a normal reaction, it's part of life.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  And what it feels like is almost like watching clouds in the sky or watching a peaceful river go by, right? Where you don't try to control the clouds, you don't try to control the water, you don't judge the clouds or the water. And by doing that, viewing your own emotions as, well, like a river that is just flowing by or through you, we're able to accept what it is and let it go and let it flow on.

• 53:27Shankar Vedantam?

  Iris Mas is a psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley. Iris, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  It was so lovely to talk with you. Thank you so much.

• 53:43Shankar Vedantam?

  After the break, a conversation about conversations. In the latest edition of our segment, Your Questions Answered, we'll hear listener thoughts on how to have more dynamic discussions with the people around us. Plus, we'll consider whether there's anything we can do to help other people improve their conversational game. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  This podcast is supported by Nurtec ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtec. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtec can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtec is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtec ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers

• 55:04Speaker 03

  and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTEC or visit Nurtec.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 55:49Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. When was the last time you had a good catch up with a friend or partner? The kind of chat where you both lost track of time? You told each other stories, reflected on favorite memories?

• 56:05Shankar Vedantam?

  Of course, not all interactions go so smoothly. We've all had conversations that were one-sided, or so disjointed, we were left wondering, what just happened?

• 56:19Shankar Vedantam?

  Behavioral scientist Alison Woodbrooks studies the science of conversation. She's the author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. In this edition of Your Questions Answered, we've asked Alison to come back to answer your questions on how to have better conversations. If you missed our earlier episodes with Alison, you can find them in this podcast feed. The first is called, "We Need to Talk." The second is titled, "The Conversations That Bring Us Closer." Alison Woodbrooks, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

• 56:52Speaker 05

  Thank you so much for having me back.

• 56:54Shankar Vedantam?

  Alison, you cite the professional matchmaker Rachel Greenwald. She talks about something she calls "the mood elevator in conversations." What is the mood elevator?

• 57:05Speaker 05

  The mood elevator is this idea that you, throughout a conversation, are moving up and down in terms of mood. As a scholar, we think about emotions actually as more complex than just good or bad, or moving up and down. But it is a really nice idea to keep in mind what the sort of temperature or emotional timbre of the conversation is as it proceeds. And good conversationalists are good at sort of keeping their hand on the steering wheel, realizing when things have gotten too boring and dull, and also realizing when maybe things are getting too heated, too angry, too hostile,

• 57:48Speaker 05

  and actually making moves to try and keep the mood elevator moving in the right direction.

• 57:54Shankar Vedantam?

  Alison, we rarely consider a conversation's purpose before starting it. Few of us sit down and say, okay, this is my goal. This is my agenda, my vision for the conversation. You argue that this can make conversations worse. How so?

• 58:09Speaker 05

  That's right. The very meaning of what success is in conversation depends on what the speakers want to get out of it, what their goals are, what their sincere desires are. And so often, most of the time, we go into conversations not having a clue what our goals are. Maybe you loosely know, oh, I want to spend time with someone and I don't want it to be awkward. But having just a little bit more clarity about what you want out of the conversation, and maybe even more importantly, what your partner wants out of the conversation, is the key to figuring out what success even looks like. For example, if you need to learn something about the other person or about a specific topic,

• 58:54Speaker 05

  you better ask and move to that topic. And if you don't, that's a signal of sort of conversational failure, in a way. Our goals are not always serious and sort of productivity-driven. Often, our goals are just to have fun together or fill time, learn about each other. But those are important motives. And so even knowing that, hey, I just want to spend these 30 minutes with this person and I want to laugh, knowing that should guide what choices you make during that interaction.

• 59:28Shankar Vedantam?

  Do you actually recommend that people talk to one another before they start a conversation, saying, you know, here's the headspace I'm in, here's what I'm hoping to get out of it?

• 59:35Speaker 05

  I think the clearer we can be with others about what we care about and what we want, the more likely those people are to actually fulfill those needs. We know that people aren't, we're not that great at guessing what other people want. And you see this happen a lot with like married couples who get mad at each other because they're like, you know, I don't need you to solve my problem. I just need a hug, right? But part of that responsibility is you can literally say, I just need, I just need someone to listen, or I just need a hug right now. I actually don't need you to solve this problem before they do the wrong thing. So but of course, there's also, it's complicated because stating your goals explicitly can also undermine them. If I say like, oh, I

• 1:00:18Speaker 05

  just really want to laugh a lot, I'm not sure that's the right pathway to actually laughing a lot with each other. So it is a little complicated.

• 1:00:28Shankar Vedantam?

  Yeah. Let's move on to the listener questions. We received a number of questions from people who feel like their conversations are imbalanced. Here's Dave.

• 1:00:40Speaker 06

  I tend to be someone who is very interested in other people, so I ask a lot of questions. The problem is, it's relatively rare to encounter someone who reciprocates and asks questions of me. So that most conversations end up being people talking about themselves. So my question is, is it possible to ask too many questions so that you've set a dynamic where the other partner you're conversing with is accustomed to just talking about themselves? Thanks.

• 1:01:13Shankar Vedantam?

  So we talked in our earlier conversation, Alison, about the superpower that is asking questions. And I guess Dave is asking, is this a superpower that can be taken too far?

• 1:01:24Speaker 05

  Hmm. It's a great question, Dave. So yes, of course, we can all probably think of people in our lives who have asked too many questions, or who habitually ask too many questions. But asking too many questions is much more rare than not asking enough questions, actually. And actually, sometimes it can happen in predictable contexts. For example, on first dates, we don't see in our research any tipping point for asking too many questions. You have so much to learn about each other in that context, and your goals are very aligned. It's a very cooperative task.

• 1:02:07Speaker 05

  On the other hand, take for example, sales calls, which we've also studied. There is a tipping point for asking too many questions, usually because you're more suspicious of each other's motives, or you have colliding purposes. You, are they trying to take advantage of me? Are they asking about these questions because they want to learn information only to then exploit me and raise the price or something? But even there, asking too many questions, it turns out to be better than asking too few. And so what we see in our data is that there is a tipping point. So for example, on a huge dataset of 30-minute sales calls, there is a tipping point where asking four questions per minute starts to go down in terms of likability for the other person.

• 1:02:51Speaker 05

  But even there, even if you're at that very high end of asking questions, it's better than being at the very low end where you're not asking enough.

• 1:03:01Shankar Vedantam?

  In some ways, I think that leads us to the next question, which comes from Eduardo.

• 1:03:08Speaker 07

  I often feel that in conversations with many people, we all have a shared responsibility to keep it going. And I very often feel that when someone is silent on a corner, just listening, is in a way, an act of selfishness. The sense that they're not contributing to this conversation and just sitting and listening feels a little unfair to the rest of us. I don't know if I'm alone on this feeling. What do you think?

• 1:03:45Shankar Vedantam?

  So in some ways, this is the flip side of the earlier problem, Alison. Instead of one person, you know, talking a lot about themselves and not asking any questions, one person is silent a lot, and that makes Eduardo resentful.

• 1:03:59Speaker 05

  Eduardo, I hear you. I think it's a fascinating question of who's responsible? You use the phrase "shared responsibility," and it's true because every conversation is sort of jointly constructed by multiple people. Things get much more complicated in groups. We feel like group conversation is the same task as one-on-one conversation because you're speaking and listening, but actually, as soon as a third person pulls up a chair, it's possible then for one person in the group to say nothing and still be involved in the conversation, still be sort of eavesdropping on the other two. And group conversation

• 1:04:42Speaker 05

  is such a coordination kerfuffle that getting these airtime dynamics right is very, very hard. And so I think there are things that Eduardo could do to sort of nudge the quiet person to participate more, right? You can make sure that you're making eye contact with quiet members of a group to make sure that they feel seen and included and sort of give them a wink like, "Hey, I want to hear from you." And the same is true for people who are talking too much. There are things you can do. You can kind of cut them off. You can redirect to another group member and say, you know, "What do you think of

• 1:05:21Speaker 05

  what they're saying?" But at some point, especially in group conversation, while there is a shared responsibility to create a good experience, there's also a lack of control. You don't have control over what people say and do. And so if somebody is there and they're very quiet, you never really know what's going on in their mind. You don't know if they're feeling anxious or shy. They don't feel like they have something to add, or they're really enjoying themselves. What you do have control over is your mindset about it and your actions, right? So trying not to come from a place of judgment, negative judgment about it. And instead, what you could do is after that group conversation

• 1:06:06Speaker 05

  has ended, you could pull that person aside privately and just say like, "Hey, are you okay? You seemed really quiet." Or, "Was that fun for you?" Ask them questions to try and learn their perspective.

• 1:06:18Shankar Vedantam?

  I like the idea of starting with compassion. We got a note from a listener named Deborah who wrote in to say, "I wanted to share that it may not be disinterest or self-centeredness that keeps someone from asking questions, but fear of appearing nosey or tone deaf or lame. Being at a loss for words doesn't seem like a problem I would ever have. But when it comes to asking questions, my brain absolutely freezes." So I guess it's useful to hear someone like Deborah. Sometimes a silent person is not just free riding on the conversation, but is petrified about how to enter it.

• 1:06:54Speaker 05

  That's right. Silence is often a sign of deference and respect. And it's funny, public rhetoric so much is about like, well, let's empower people to speak up. But often, not speaking is a really lovely, very considered choice if you don't feel like you have something to add. Or if you feel like, oh, other people are on a roll and I don't want to interrupt that they're sharing these stories with each other. So very often, the choice to be quiet is kind and very polite. And you can't really tell the difference. So if someone like Deborah is in a group with Eduardo and Eduardo's feeling annoyed that Deborah's not speaking,

• 1:07:39Speaker 05

  the question becomes, how do we get them to communicate with each other about what's going on privately in their minds? Where Eduardo's feeling annoyed that Deborah's not talking and Deborah's sort of sitting there feeling like, well, I don't want to ask a question that's rude. So they're both coming from with virtuous motives and sort of need to know that about each other.

• 1:08:02Shankar Vedantam?

  So as Deborah pointed out, some people hesitate to ask questions because they're worried about coming across as intrusive. But a listener named Rosalyn wrote in about asking a question and then realizing she had made a blunder.

• 1:08:15Speaker 08

  As an adult and understanding the importance of showing interest in others, I asked a new friend if they were renting their house in our neighborhood. My thinking was to find out if they were happy with the neighborhood and wanted to stay permanently. This person pulled me aside and asked me not to ask them that question again, especially in front of others. They were offended by my question since the perceived implication was that if they rent, they can't afford to buy. And I had effectively broadcast that to everyone.

• 1:08:45Shankar Vedantam?

  So talk a moment, Alison, about landmines in conversation. I don't believe that Rosalind was trying to offend, but it looks like she gave offense.

• 1:08:54Speaker 05

  That's right. Rosalind, don't beat yourself up. We all do this all the time. I think there's something, an important point here, which is the question itself wasn't offensive. And this is often the case, that questions are not offensive, topics aren't sensitive, but what is sensitive is the context. I wasn't surprised at all in listening to this question that in the middle, Rosalind said it was in front of other people. As soon as there, it's no longer a one-on-one conversation, as soon as a third person pulls up a chair, or even more people are there, the potential for shame enters the conversation. So imagine if Rosalind had asked that exact same question, but it had been one-on-one

• 1:09:39Speaker 05

  with this friend. It probably would have been fine. And maybe it would have even been a place where they could have become closer. And this friend said, you know, I feel a little embarrassed that I'm not able to buy a house yet. But these small moves in conversation, in groups, there's so many more people watching and the potential for judgment, that even questions that in another context would not be sensitive can become much more threatening and sort of embarrassing and filled with the potential for shame.

• 1:10:14Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Your Questions Answered, our segment in which we bring researchers back to answer listener questions. After the break, Alison Woodbrooks will answer questions on how to improve conversations with your partner, children, and friends. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 1:10:46Speaker 03

  This podcast is supported by Nurtec ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtec. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtec can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtec is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtec ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers

• 1:11:31Speaker 03

  and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTEC, or visit Nurtec.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 1:11:45Speaker 04

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• 1:12:17Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

• 1:12:21Shankar Vedantam?

  Allison Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. For many years now, she has studied the science of conversation. We featured Allison's work in a series of conversations in February. You can find the links to those conversations in the show notes for today's episode.

• 1:12:39Shankar Vedantam?

  Allison, in our original conversation, you taught me the term ZQ, which refers to someone who is a zero questioner. Now typically, ZQers show up on first or second dates, but they can also show up in other parts of our lives as well. Here's listener Jean wondering how to navigate ZQs in friendships.

• 1:13:01Speaker 09

  I'm going to have lunch tomorrow with two friends I've known for 60 years. Both are ZQs, but they are far from the only ones. Most everyone I'm around is a ZQ. Nearly all of my friends and acquaintances are ZQs. I'm always the one asking questions. I'm always the one asking follow-up questions. I'm the one who brings an agenda to a conversation. Do I need to ditch these friends and acquaintances and get new ones?

• 1:13:28Shankar Vedantam?

  What do you think, Allison?

• 1:13:30Speaker 05

  Oh, Jean, it's such a great question. I think many people feel this way about certain people in their lives. It's one that I keep in mind, too. Conversation is a place that profoundly makes us reflect about what we have control over and what we don't have control over. I mean, ultimately, you can't force other people to ask you questions. You know, at the beginning of a relationship, I think, or let's say in dating, it's a legitimate reason to say, you know what? Maybe I don't want to go on a second date with this person. But once you're in a long-term friendship or a long-term relationship, and that friend or your romantic partner,

• 1:14:12Speaker 05

  if it's really bothering you that they're not showing more curiosity or interest about your life, or they're not asking questions, or maybe it's bugging you that they're not asking questions to other people, and you have to sort of suffer through their habits, observing their habits, and you feel embarrassed. I do think if you're in a good, sturdy, trusting relationship, this is the kind of thing you could think about giving them feedback about. That is a big if, right? Like, you need to be in a really positive, trusting, loving place to be able to say, you know what? I would really love for you to ask me more questions. And you might learn something really great. They might say, oh, I don't, because I always worry that it's too nosey, or I know that you don't love talking about yourself, which is why I don't ask.

• 1:14:57Speaker 05

  That's the kind of brave conversational thing that might unearth new information, even in an old, long-term friendship or relationship.

• 1:15:08Shankar Vedantam?

  You know, when Gene says that he's known these two friends for 60 years, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, you should tell them, you know, maybe you should be asking me more questions. But I realize, as I say that, that I'm feeling hypocritical, because I'm thinking about somebody whom I've known for a long time, who never asks any questions in conversations. And after some time, I'm finding that, you know, I try and avoid this person. I'm not, I don't look forward to actually, you know, hanging out with this person, but I haven't had the courage to actually tell them, you know, here's why I think, you know, you should be asking more questions.

• 1:15:40Speaker 05

  In an interesting way, it's a fascinating test of how much do you value that relationship? Because I think over time, these are the sort of small things that accumulate that do push us apart or can bring us closer. And this sort of decision of do I give this feedback or not is a test of, well, how, what do you want this person to be in your life going forward? How much can you tolerate?

• 1:16:07Shankar Vedantam?

  Yeah. Another issue that bothered a lot of listeners was the topic of interruptions. Here's Dwight.

• 1:16:15Speaker 10

  I find myself being interrupted several times, most frequently by my close family. How do I stop that from happening or draw their attention to the fact that I don't appreciate it?

• 1:16:33Speaker 05

  This is a topic very near and dear to my heart, Dwight. I hear you. I want to, I want to draw a distinction that I think you might find helpful, Dwight, and I hope others do too. Interruptions come in two flavors. One is when someone interrupts, cuts you off and stays on the same topic versus they cut you off and they jump cut to something unrelated. On-topic interruptions are actually pretty great. It's a sign that the person you're talking to is very engaged and they're listening and they're so excited about where you're going that they can't wait for you to finish your, your sentence or your statement.

• 1:17:14Speaker 05

  It still can be annoying, right? It's still, they're still cutting you off, so you can't finish your thought, but it is a sign that you are connecting and that you have this bubbling back and forth. On the other hand, off-topic interruptions are the kind that we think of, you know, the jerk who cuts someone off and changes the subject because they're not interested. That is actually quite rude and very frustrating. So I would, I would nudge you Dwight to think about which type is happening to you and if it's the positive flavor, the on-topic interruption, maybe to try to just feel, foster a little bit more gratitude, sort of do the reframe of like, oh yeah, this is happening because

• 1:17:58Speaker 05

  they're, they love me or they, they care so much about what we're talking about, they can't possibly wait for me to finish.

• 1:18:05Speaker 05

  Or if it's the sort of bad kind where someone is truly not interested in what you're saying and is shifting to something else, then that's a situation where you might think about giving them feedback. Like, hey, it actually makes, it makes me feel not only annoyed, but probably a little hurt that you're constantly switching the conversation away from me and my ideas. Just wanted to let you know that's how I'm feeling. And if it's people who are really close to you, they should, they should care. They should take that seriously.

• 1:18:36Shankar Vedantam?

  We got an interesting note from a listener, Kate, who in some ways raises a new dimension of interruptions that I think has to do with the timing of when people enter conversations. Here's Kate.

• 1:18:50Speaker 11

  I often seem to misjudge conversational pauses and find myself interrupting someone who has simply taken a breath, not finished their thought. I tell myself it might be because I grew up in the UK and conversational pace is probably different in different cultures. But I suspect that's just an excuse. How can we tell when it's our turn to speak?

• 1:19:14Shankar Vedantam?

  What do you think, Alison? Because in some ways, this is actually a profound problem. As you've pointed out, you know, there's no conductor for the orchestra of a conversation. No conductor who says, you know, now it's time for the string section to come in and now it's time for the violins to quiet down just a bit. There's no, there's no one organizing the conversation. So people have to guess when someone is done talking before they can jump in. What if we all have different estimations of when someone has finished?

• 1:19:42Speaker 05

  It's a great question. I think this is part of what it means to get close with certain people or to become familiar with a certain culture. This is part of that cultural learning or that sort of relational learning is learning people's preferences about, about how long should we wait before the next person talks? How, how acceptable is it for me to cut people off or to jump in before they're done? And it might be, it can be a cultural thing, but it also can just be part of your shared reality in a relationship where you develop your own norms and equilibrium of like, what's acceptable. But I think someone like this who's feeling like, oh, maybe I'm jumping in too soon. It's the kind of thing that you could work on and just say, oh, I'm going to try it today or in this conversation to be a little bit more patient.

• 1:20:27Speaker 05

  I want to make sure I let my partner finish all the way before I jump in and, and do it as a little test for yourself. I, I constantly do this kind of test for myself and I find it quite helpful.

• 1:20:40Shankar Vedantam?

  Catherine wrote to us about her situation. She is more of a fast-paced talker. She likes a lot of back and forth. Her boyfriend enjoys having a little more space in conversations and he likes time to consider his responses. Here's Catherine describing their interactions.

• 1:20:57Speaker 12

  I'm wondering for those people who have that different type of conversational style, if they sometimes feel a little bit lost or a little swept along by those of us who like that more rapid fire, sometimes even talking over each other style. Is there any advice that you could offer for someone who maybe needs a little more time to process a conversation before responding?

• 1:21:22Shankar Vedantam?

  In other words, can fast talkers and slow talkers get along, Alison?

• 1:21:26Speaker 05

  I sure hope so. That's it. Catherine, I very much resonate with this in my own marriage. I think yes, but I think having awareness of your own style and other's style is a huge part of being good communicators, right? So being a kind of conversationalist means understanding your partner's needs and preferences, no matter what your needs and preferences are, and trying to, you know, relentlessly focus on what they need and trying to fulfill it. So if you feel, if you're a fast talker like Catherine and you feel like the conversation's moving too quickly and it's starting to annoy your partner, or they're feeling lost, or they need more space, then slowing down, pulling back during the conversation can

• 1:22:09Speaker 05

  be an act of kindness, or even suggesting, hey, let's take a little break. You think about this for a little bit. I'm going to go grab a drink and, or, you know, a glass of water, and then I'll come back and we'll pick it back up. You can give gifts like that of spaciousness, or even just asking question of like, am I moving too fast? I realize I'm like getting too excited right now. What do you need from me? And the same is true in the opposite direction. So Catherine's partner can do this reframe of like, I know I'm, I can get lost or get annoyed with you moving so quickly, but that's part of what makes you special and exciting and fun to talk to. So it's a little, the responsibility is also in his court to say, hey, maybe let's slow down, maybe let's

• 1:22:51Speaker 05

  take a break, or, or just say like, hey, I really appreciate the high energy, but let me, let's take a little breath here.

• 1:23:04Shankar Vedantam?

  After the break, Alison Woodbrooks will answer more of your questions on how to improve conversations. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedant.

• 1:23:26Speaker 03

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• 1:25:24Shankar Vedantam?

  This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Good conversations often feel effortless. We're in sync with someone, the jokes and laughter are flowing, and we feel happy and engaged. Many conversations, however, are not effortless. They feel awkward, stilted, or upsetting.

• 1:25:44Shankar Vedantam?

  Behavioral scientist Alison Woodbrook studies the science of conversation. She's the author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves.

• 1:25:55Shankar Vedantam?

  Alison, we had some listeners write in about the effects of personality on conversation. Here's a note from Nancy. "If you interrogate someone, especially an introvert, with numerous questions without pause, they're going to become passive. Allowing space for a comfortable pause seems like an important part of conversation. How can we learn to be comfortable in the necessary silences of conversation without leaving the conversation?" To broaden out Nancy's question a little bit, Alison, can you talk a moment about personality differences and how they affect conversational styles?

• 1:26:29Speaker 05

  Absolutely. I think, you know, differences, but there are so many people in the world, and everyone is incredibly different. And we have a tendency to think a lot about, "How do my personality traits affect my behavior in conversation? What are my strengths and weaknesses?" I think these reflections can be very productive. And one of the ways that they manifest in conversation is for very different habits and levels of comfort with silence and cadence and what you prefer. It sounds like Nancy is being very kind here. This is a very kind question of, "Well, when I interact with people who need more spaciousness,

• 1:27:12Speaker 05

  who need more pausing, how can we do that?" I think, you know, as we said, strangers and new acquaintances, it's quite hard to accomplish this idea of companionable silence because... Any sort of lull in the conversation gives you that panicky feeling like you're failing the task of getting to know each other and keeping the conversation alive. But as a relationship grows longer and you know someone longer, then silences become not only okay, but really great. It gives you a place to sit and think and remember to raise topics that you should be raising with each other. So just that hack, I think, can be quite comforting is think about how long you've

• 1:27:57Speaker 05

  known someone. If you've known them a long time, it's okay to be together and not talking.

• 1:28:01Shankar Vedantam?

  Christina had a question about her attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

• 1:28:07Speaker 14

  As someone who has ADHD, it becomes overwhelming for me and actually sometimes quite exhausting to be in social situations, supposed to know the social cues and asking the right questions, follow-up questions and all that. And I tend to jump from subject to subject, depending upon what comes into my brain, which can be a lot. So wondering any tips or tricks or advice around navigating some of those challenges.

• 1:28:44Shankar Vedantam?

  What do you think, Alison? People's brains, of course, are different and that's going to produce different conversational styles.

• 1:28:51Speaker 05

  That's right. I think there's been a lot of, in sort of public discourse, there's been a lot of focus on ADD, ADHD, autism, and always a focus on personality differences like introversion and extroversion. And it's helpful to know those things about yourself, but when it comes to conversation, it doesn't really matter where your behaviors come from, whether you're ADD, whether you're just an introvert. If you find that social situations tend to be overwhelming or exhausting, or you tend to jump topics too quickly, I think fostering that self-awareness about what your conversational strengths and weaknesses are, no matter where they come from.

• 1:29:35Speaker 05

  Is a really good thing to do because you can lean into your strengths. It sounds like Christina has lots of strengths and weaknesses, just like all of us. It sounds like Christina is really creative and good at pulling together adjacent ideas and cutting to new topics quickly. The downside of that is maybe it's probably a lot of work to stay engaged on the same topic for a long time with someone, especially if her interest is waning. And that is going to be exhausting and it is going to be hard to force yourself to ask follow up questions if you're, you know, you're not interested anymore. And that's okay, but knowing that about yourself means you can lean into your strengths and you can constantly sort of work on your weaknesses.

• 1:30:17Speaker 05

  That's what we all need to do, no matter where our strengths and weaknesses come from.

• 1:30:22Shankar Vedantam?

  We received a number of emails from listeners about how to improve familial conversations. This first one comes from a listener who called herself Ms. S. She wrote, "My husband and I have been married for over 50 years. We've gone through the normal peaks and valleys of any long term or short term for that matter relationship. Now we are in our golden years and I want to make the best of every moment we can. How do we reawaken some of the excitement and depth in our conversations when everything seems to be so routine these days? Is there possibly a unique or creative routine that we might adopt to get back some of the earlier intimacy that we've known? What do you think, Alison?"

• 1:31:03Speaker 05

  What a question. How do we get the spark back in? How do we, how do we do something? And I like this question. It's not saying like, how do, not only how do we get the spark back into our relationship, but is there a routine? Is there a thing we could do regularly that helps to nudge us to think differently or converse differently? Of course, there are lots of ideas that you could try. But ultimately, I think it comes down to this idea of forethought. So before you are together with each other, I think reflecting a little bit about what are some topics that will be exciting and interesting to my partner? What do they want to talk about? What do I have left to discover about them? What did they have left to discover about me?

• 1:31:48Speaker 05

  Just a little 30 seconds of forethought before you see them can go a really long way in actually raising those interesting topics once you're together. In a way, We're often the least interested and the least kind to the people that we care about the most because we're just used to being around them. So just a tiny little nudge to yourself of reflecting, hey, what do they care about? What are they excited about? How can we, how can we leverage that in our next conversation can go a long way.

• 1:32:18Shankar Vedantam?

  This next question is from Kristy.

• 1:32:21Speaker 15

  I was wondering if you could give an idea of good questions when talking with teenagers. My grandson has just gone into his teenage years and I found that our relationship has really changed. I would really like to be a part of his life in his teenage years and I have found it difficult to talk with him. Thank you so much.

• 1:32:47Shankar Vedantam?

  Have you found good ways to bridge generational divides in conversations, Allison?

• 1:32:52Speaker 05

  This is such a fascinating question. I think something to keep in mind with teenagers is that they are just learning to have conversations, even though they appear to be, you know, fully formed human beings. Learning to be a good conversationalist is probably the most important skill and they're very much still learning it. I think as parents, or really anyone who interacts with a teenager, something I find helpful to remember is that our job is to help them learn those conversational skills. So even if the conversations we are having with them directly aren't that great, you

• 1:33:33Speaker 05

  should feel good knowing that even when it doesn't go well between the two of you, that's definitely helping them learn how to have conversations with other people, with their friends, with their teachers, with their coaches. And ultimately, that's an adult's job in a teenager's life, is helping to make them the best person they can be. And so in a way, it's almost not about you, even though I know we all want to have delightful conversations with our teenagers, but you shouldn't expect every conversation with a teenager to be. Deeply rewarding or great, or they're not going to always give you compliments. They're not going to ask you questions back. You're not going to figure out what the right questions to ask them are. They don't want to share everything about who they are, what they're thinking about,

• 1:34:17Speaker 05

  because they don't know. They don't know who they are yet. They're just figuring it out. And so giving ourselves and certainly giving some grace to our teenagers is a great mindset to have.

• 1:34:30Shankar Vedantam?

  A listener named Becky had a follow up question about how to help younger people become better conversationalists. Here she is.

• 1:34:37Speaker 16

  What would be five things that you would tell a kid to help them grow into being a better conversationalist, especially with some of our kids that have traumas in their past and maybe don't have great conversationalists around them? Thank you.

• 1:34:52Shankar Vedantam?

  What do you think, Alison? Is there a cheat sheet?

• 1:34:55Speaker 05

  There is. I mean, it's my whole book, right? It's all of the things in the talk framework. Prep topics before a conversation starts. I think that could help a ton of kids, just a tiny bit of forethought. Switch topics confidently when they start to lag. Have a mindset to ask more questions. If you're a kid or a teenager who can even ask one question per conversation, it's going to be such a huge win for you, especially follow up questions. I mean, you hear a teenager ask a follow up question and you're like, wow, that kid is amazing. Giving people compliments. If you think something nice in your mind about someone, say it out loud.

• 1:35:37Speaker 05

  It shows that you are confident and competent and you really care about people. Yeah, so sort of all of the things that we've been talking about, Shankar, the more that we can help our kids learn to do those things, the better they're going to do in their lives.

• 1:35:55Shankar Vedantam?

  So, good conversations require a partner who is willing or eager to engage. Many people struggle to find such a person. This last question is about how we can help loved ones to have better conversations with us. Here's the question from a listener who asked to remain anonymous. "After almost 30 years of marriage, I have not been able to find a way to talk to my husband about how we interact, how we talk to each other, without making him feel defensive. Even if I include myself in how I would like us to change our dynamic in order to be more constructive, his instinct is to close up and not hear what I say or to mishear it. Now, I'm afraid the problem is carved in stone. Is there something I can do to talk to him without shutting him down?"

• 1:36:40Shankar Vedantam?

  What do you think, Allison?

• 1:36:41Speaker 05

  I think a lot of people can relate to this question, and it's a hard one. I think we do, especially hardened over so many years in a relationship with someone, you get in habits and in ruts, communication ruts. It's why so many couples go to couples therapy is to try and sort of break out of these loops of attack and defend, or the habits of sort of bickering with each other. I hear that this person has already sort of tried, hey, I'm gonna like offer, I'm gonna be vulnerable with them to try and trigger their reciprocity about being vulnerable. And that doesn't sound like it's working, but that's one option.

• 1:37:22Speaker 05

  Another is literally like the kill 'em with kindness approach, where what if you broke your communication patterns in another way, where you just start giving them lots of affirmation, lots of validation, saying all the things that you really love about them and appreciate to make sure that you're in like the sturdiest, most supportive, most wonderful place you could be. Sometimes, when you're in a happy place in that way, other people are more willing to sort of admit or acknowledge moments of things, little failures or cracks around the edges.

• 1:38:03Shankar Vedantam?

  I mean, in some ways, I think what I hear you saying, Alison, is that when someone points out a flaw in our conversational style, especially if we are, we've had this flaw for a long time, perhaps, this can be hard to hear, and it can be threatening to hear. And in some ways, in some ways, prepping us, if you will, by boosting our egos, making us feel good about ourselves, making us feel secure, might make it easier to digest difficult information.

• 1:38:31Speaker 05

  That's true of all constructive feedback. Really, the only way that you can deliver effective constructive feedback is if you have, you are in a really positive, supportive relationship, and you have spent lots of time giving positive feedback to this person, so that they know that in that moment, like, hey, you think I'm awesome, you love me, we're in a great place, and also, there's this one thing that I could work on. Because if you start from the constructive place, like, everyone's going to be defensive. It's a profound human instinct to defend yourself, and to defend your ego, defend your pride. It's very hard to be receptive, in general, and particularly if you're only receiving negative news.

• 1:39:26Shankar Vedantam?

  Alison Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. She's the author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Alison, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

• 1:39:38Speaker 05

  It's been such a pleasure, Shankar. Thank you for having me.

• 1:39:49Shankar Vedantam?

  Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristin Wong, Laura Kwerel, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor.

• 1:40:08Shankar Vedantam?

  Next week on the show, Meditations on a Life Worth Living. We continue our U2.0 series with philosopher Massimo Piliucci. He'll take us inside the world of the Stoics and why their wisdom has survived nearly 2,000 years. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.

• 1:41:06Speaker 03

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers

• 1:41:51Speaker 03

  and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTC or visit Nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

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