Pod Insights Here's The Thing with Alec Baldwin Jake Tapper: From Breaking News to Bestsellers About this episode Jake Tapper is a journalist, news anchor, author, and the current lead Washington anchor for CNN. Tapper hosts the weekday news show, The Lead with Jake Tapper, and co-hosts the Sunday morning public affairs program, State of the Union. At CNN, Tapper has won numerous journalism awards, including Emmy Awards in 2023 and 2024. He also played a key role in ABC News’ Emmy Award-winning coverage of the 2009 inauguration of President Barack Obama and Edward R. Murrow Award winning coverage of the death of Osama bin Laden. In addition to his reporting career, Tapper is also a New York Times bestselling author of several novels and nonfiction books, such as The Outpost: An Untold Story of American Valor and his most recent book, Original Sin, co-written with Alex Thompson. His bestselling novels include The Hellfire Club and The Devil May Dance.
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Transcript 8,695 words · 14 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:36 Alec Baldwin? This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is a journalist, author, and news anchor, widely recognized for his sharp political interviews and moderating recent U.S. presidential debates.
1:54 Alec Baldwin? Jake Tapper is currently the Washington anchor for CNN and weekday host of The Lead with Jake Tapper. He is also co-host of the Sunday morning political roundtable State of the Union. Tapper's work as a broadcast journalist has earned him two Emmy Awards. He is also a recipient of the prestigious Edward R. Murrow Award for Outstanding Achievements in Broadcast and Digital Journalism. In addition to his work as a reporter, Jake Tapper is also a bestselling author of political thrillers and nonfiction. Known for his directness and tough critique, I was curious how Jake Tapper would critique himself.
2:37 Speaker 05 Yeah, brutally. There's no one that I'm tougher on than me, is the truth. I'm a flagellator, a self-flagellator, like, as if it's one of those scenes that you see in Iran every now and then where Shia are flagellating themselves. It is a daily event. No one is tougher on me than me.
2:58 Alec Baldwin? Your career is so vast, all the writing and the work you did before you landed at ABC first. You were on camera first with ABC or somebody else?
3:07 Speaker 05 Full-time ABC, yeah. I mean, there was, there's little things here and there, but full-time job, yes, ABC News.
3:14 Alec Baldwin? Do you go back and look at your work and evaluate yourself and try to fix it?
3:18 Speaker 05 Well, I'm lucky enough that I have a daily show so that every possible mistake I could make is pointed out to me in real time.
3:27 Alec Baldwin? Do they really give you a direction?
3:29 Speaker 05 By the, no, I'm talking about like the masses on social media. I tend to think that my flaws as a broadcaster are more in holding back than in going in too much. There are, there are times that I, that I think I went too far, but generally speaking, there is the imperative in broadcasting. That, you know, and you know this, but like, um, okay, we gotta take a commercial break. Okay, we got on to the next. Like, it's almost as if you, as soon as you have a guest, even if it's a huge guest, there's almost like an excitement for it to be over. That's just like cable news. So sometimes I get too wrapped up in what I'm being told and not focused enough on what
4:11 Speaker 05 I'm experiencing and what the interviewee is saying. And there are times that I wish that I had plunged in more. The mistakes I make tend to be one of three or four that I make over and over and over again.
4:26 Alec Baldwin? So when you're doing the lead, your show, your signature show with CNN, are there producers who work with you? They shape the program or is the content of the program essentially your call?
4:38 Speaker 05 It's a combination of both, but it's, I mean, it's without question, it's a huge team effort. Like right now, so I had my first call at eight thirty in the morning with my two top producers, my executive producer and my senior broadcast producer. And then we talk about what we want to be in the show. And we discuss things that we think need to be in the show today, obviously, as a, we're in the midst of this presidential decision about whether or not to drop a massive bomb on a, a mountain in or a facility in Iran. And so it's a little different than the average day. Um, and we talk about the guests that we already have lined up. And we talk about what we want to ask them or what I want to ask them. And then it gets assigned to producers and we have a producing team of about twenty or so.
5:23 Speaker 05 And each person gets their own assignment or two for a block or two. And then we go over it all at roughly two hours before the show, so three o'clock for a five o'clock show. And sometimes I'm weighing in the whole time and sometimes I'm talking to people about what I want in there. And obviously, we adjust as the day goes on because of news developing such as a Supreme Court decision or whatever. It's my show, but like with a team of smart people who push back on me, who offer their ideas. And in that conflict and tension, I think we get to a good place.
5:55 Alec Baldwin? Obviously, the show and your staff, your producers and people who do the show with you, they have bosses as well. Do they leave you alone? When do you, I mean, you see what happened to Terry Moran? Are you left alone by the powers that be at Warner Discovery?
6:10 Speaker 05 Pretty much. Every now and, David Zasloff would be the big cheese.
6:15 Alec Baldwin? Sure.
6:15 Speaker 05 And then we have a new, a new one for the split that doing Gunner. But I don't talk to them on a regular basis. It's more, it would be more Sir Mark Thompson, who's the head of CNN. But even he is pretty hands off. And then there's a layer of executives there, too. It's more, here is what we have. Here is what we have been putting together with our reporters. And here's where we have reporters on the scene. And, and this is what we think, but you guys do your own shows. And people might suggest something, like if I were leading today with a story about the New York Mets or something, I'm sure people would say, what? What are you doing? But as a general rule, they leave us pretty much alone.
6:55 Speaker 05 In terms of the Terry Moran thing, I don't get a lot of feedback on my social media. I tend to not opine as much. I tend to think that if I have some thought, that it's better that I do it on TV than if I do it on social media. And that is a, I think it's a healthy way to do it because A, it means that you can do it with the whole context and, and proving the point you want with clips and with evidence. And also it means that other people can have their eyeballs on it and it can be the best presentation. And I happen to think a good, like, four or five minute piece that you might do or tell, where like we're preparing one today for the decision that President Trump has in front of him right now.
7:38 Speaker 05 And I think that that would be better, I think that will be better than if I just kind of just shared my random thoughts on my own and put it on social media.
7:45 Alec Baldwin? Right, right. Well, I mean, of course, people would go to CNN for the news.
7:50 Speaker 05 Yeah.
7:50 Alec Baldwin? And they want to watch breaking news and they would watch MSNBC. If you're of a certain leaning, you'd watch MSNBC for the commentary.
7:57 Speaker 05 Right.
7:58 Alec Baldwin? And, and people seem to pivot between the two. Do you feel that's still the case, though? Do you feel that people are coming to CNN largely for breaking news and going to MSNBC for opinion? Or you don't think that's any longer the case?
8:10 Speaker 05 We do have overlap with Fox and MSNBC. I think so. I also think that there is a Degree to which sometimes people don't want to hear certain news. And so they might go to a channel that preaches to the choir. Look, the preaching to the choir business model or opinion slash analysis business model is a lucrative one. I think that, I hope that there is always going to be room for a news, a cable news network. In these days where broadcast news is not what it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago in terms of foreign coverage, in terms of that sort of thing. I mean, I worked under Peter Jennings at World News Tonight.
8:46 Alec Baldwin? Great guy.
8:47 Speaker 05 Yeah, and a very different show than what they put on now. I hope that there is always going to be a market for it. I don't know that there will be, but I think and hope that there will be, but we'll have to see. I mean, the world is evolving in such crazy ways when it comes to the consumption of all media. It's affecting your world as much as it's affecting my world. It's affecting publishing. I've written seven books and the way that publishers look at eBooks and audiobooks today is significantly different than five years ago. Now there is this real recognition that people are not reading hardcover books as much as they used to. That people are listening to books and reading them on their phones is just as much.
9:27 Alec Baldwin? Now, you are on the air during the week and everybody I know watches your show. They're all fans of the lead with you and CNN. And then you're on the weekend as well, correct?
9:36 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, Dana Bash and I split State of the Union on Sundays. So sometimes it's her, sometimes it's me, but yeah.
9:42 Alec Baldwin? Different demographic for those shows, different producers?
9:44 Speaker 05 Yes, completely different team. I mean, there's overlap in terms of sometimes somebody will leave the lead and go work at State of the Union or vice versa, but yes, and different hours and a completely different task. A Sunday show is one that is not necessarily as driven by what is going on today. It's driven maybe more like what's the conversation of the week? So for instance, Dana did State of the Union earlier this week. And you know, the story of that day was Iran, but she covered other things too that had gone into, including, you know, legislation and stuff on the Hill. So it's a little bit different and you also have more time to breathe. An eight or nine minute interview on Sunday is fine.
10:28 Speaker 05 An eight or nine minute interview on the lead during the week is long.
10:32 Alec Baldwin? Yeah. Well, you're doing this job now on the air. You were with ABC on the air for how many years?
10:38 Speaker 05 From 2002 to 2013, or something like that.
10:43 Alec Baldwin? Right. And then you've been with CNN since?
10:45 Speaker 05 Yes.
10:46 Alec Baldwin? When you moved over directly to CNN?
10:47 Speaker 05 I wanted to anchor. That's what I wanted to do. And you've anchored, so you know the joy and the challenges of anchoring. But it is, it is, it is...
10:55 Alec Baldwin? I played an anchor. No, I'm kidding.
10:56 Speaker 05 Yeah, well, you know, but you anchored a show and it was interesting. But you know what I mean? Like, you want to anchor a show as opposed to report for a show. And one of the reasons I wanted to do it is so the reported pieces I do could be as long as I wanted them to, as opposed to as long as an anchor wanted them to be.
11:11 Alec Baldwin? Well, when I did this show, one I did for MSNBC, I just wanted to do a straight interview show.
11:17 Speaker 05 Right.
11:17 Alec Baldwin? My model, and I say this with no facetiousness, was Tom Snyder. Snyder was a great interviewer.
11:22 Speaker 05 Yeah.
11:23 Alec Baldwin? Well, I want to have a nice hour-long conversation with somebody who's worth that investment of time and not get anybody. Like, you tell me who you are. You tell me what people aren't saying about you. Tell me all about your work and your view of it. This is a chance for people to say whatever they wanted to say.
11:40 Speaker 05 I don't know why that's gone. Like, I agree with you, that Tom Snyder model, the Charlie Rose model, Tim Russert used to have a show like that on CNBC, I think. And he would, he would do extended interviews with people who maybe didn't rise to the Meet the Press level, like Donald Trump in the early aughts. And then you could mine those interviews much later. And in fact, at one point, I was talking to Jeff Zucker, when he was my boss at CNN, about would I do a show like that at HLN, back when HLN still was what HLN was? And just so there would be a show where we could do extended, hour-long interviews. And it was a really interesting idea, and then it just never happened. But I agree with you. I would watch a show like that. I think those are basically podcasts now. I guess broadcasting.
12:25 Alec Baldwin? Exactly.
12:26 Speaker 05 Broadcasting doesn't do them anymore. I don't know why.
12:28 Alec Baldwin? And you could do the show, I said, put me on at 2:00 in the morning. I don't care.
12:31 Speaker 05 Yeah.
12:31 Alec Baldwin? And then we'll stream the audio as a podcast.
12:34 Speaker 05 Or Inside the Actors Studio, was that, was that... Two.
12:37 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, and they're very upset that that's gone. It was really a great.
12:40 Speaker 05 It was a great show, and I don't know why it doesn't exist anymore.
12:44 Alec Baldwin? Jim died. Yeah, he died.
12:45 Speaker 05 Well, I know Jim died, but the conceit of it is still so smart, but why? Why doesn't it exist? And I can only think, I know that people have looked into it and the conclusion is just, it's just too expensive for, they just don't think it will rate. The other thing, and I hate to say this, but the people who make decisions like this don't think that getting an actor over the age of 60 will draw any viewers. And it's crazy to me because like, I could watch an interview with Gene Hackman, or Morgan Freeman, or Alan Alda, whatever, but like, I guess that's just the mindset these days.
13:24 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, well, when you're ready to host Inside the Actor Studio reboot, I'm gonna call you. We'll make a deal with CNN and we'll call you. Now, you've been in this, doing this since you said 2003, and God, what you've seen and the changes you've seen.
13:38 Speaker 05 Yeah.
13:39 Alec Baldwin? And it must be so, I don't know what the word is, not alarming, but maybe even exhausting. Almost every day in the world we live in right now, and since you know who, I would imagine, is, it just feels like the world is hanging on by its fingernails.
13:53 Speaker 05 It feels like that. President Trump has a way of turning on a fire hose of activity that does make it especially challenging to figure out what to cover, what not to cover. Somebody asked me the other day about a decision I made to not cover a social media post of the president. So it was when he retruthed that crazy post about Biden was assassinated and he's been replaced by clones or something like that, I'm sure you saw. And this person said, you know, in any other, in any other situation, that would be like the front page of the New York Times, that the president would put forward such an unhinged theory.
14:34 Speaker 05 And I agree with it, but also, I think one of the lessons I learned from the first Trump term is, don't follow the tweets, follow the activities, the actions. The actions are more important than the words. And right now, the actions and the words are about whether or not he's gonna. authorize a bombing of the Fordo plant in Iran, but also you have all these deportations, you have this litigation having to do with universities, you have this lawsuit against Paramount slash CBS News, and I just think that the actions are more important than the words. But it does feel like an especially crazy and perilous time, no question.
15:11 Alec Baldwin? I wonder, when I looked at that whole thing with Harvard and so forth, is there a corresponding attack on conservative colleges? Does Liberty University get the same treatment as Harvard? Have they been pursuing this blindly, or are they only focusing, as one might easily guess, on liberal universities?
15:30 Speaker 05 They've only focused on Ivy League universities, and I think they're looking at the University of California system. I mean, they're obviously picking their targets according to, I mean, they would argue that they're picking their targets according to where has there been DEI, where has there not been enough civil rights protections for Jewish students in the wake of the protests. But I think they're pretty cleverly picking avatars for that which the MAGA world hates, universities, especially Harvard. I mean, there just is something about them going after Harvard more than Yale that is particularly inciting of the base that hates Harvard, even those who went to Harvard, you know, I mean...
16:12 Alec Baldwin? Your dad went to Harvard Medical School.
16:14 Speaker 05 My dad went to Harvard Medical School.
16:15 Alec Baldwin? Is he still around, your dad?
16:17 Speaker 05 He is. He's 85 years old.
16:18 Alec Baldwin? My God, what does he think of all this?
16:20 Speaker 05 Oh, he's a, he's an old dyed-in-the-wool lefty. He does, he has a nickname for Trump that I won't repeat. Yeah, he's not a fan of this. You know, he, he came of age, and his skepticism about power really influenced me growing up. And it wasn't partisan, because he hated LBJ, but his skepticism about the Vietnam War was very influential. So I was born in 1969, so the Vietnam War went on until 74, 75, and that and Watergate were hugely influential, parts of my very, very early childhood.
16:52 Alec Baldwin? Me too.
16:53 Speaker 05 And, and how much he hated the Democratic mayor of Philadelphia, where we, where I grew up, Frank Rizzo.
16:58 Alec Baldwin? Yeah.
16:59 Speaker 05 Who was a former police chief, police commissioner, and the like.
17:03 Alec Baldwin? Did your parents divorce affect you in any way in terms of your career?
17:06 Speaker 05 I think, you know, funny, I think that, I was talking about this the other day. So, we had a president at CNN named Chris Licht, who was rather short-lived after David Zaslove came in and Warner Brothers Discovery took over CNN. And I was trying internally to help make that work towards the end when it wasn't working and before Chris left. And I think that is part of my being a child of divorce, that I was trying to make this work. Even though very few people, I think, wanted to make it work anymore towards the end. And obviously it didn't. But I mean, I think that trying to make a relationship work even when it's over,
17:50 Speaker 05 I think that's the root of it. But I have a very good relationship with both my parents and they're both still alive. My mom actually just moved down from Philadelphia to Washington DC to a retirement home right near us. So, I see her at least once a week. And yeah, and they're still alive and kicking. They're in their 80s, 82 and 85.
18:09 Alec Baldwin? Washington and Philadelphia, I mean, I would imagine, and in fact, I know from people that I know down there. I love Philadelphia.
18:15 Speaker 05 Yeah, I love Philly.
18:16 Alec Baldwin? And I love Philly. It's New York without the ego. But those societies and that kind of realm, yes, Washington's Washington, but it isn't that much different, are they? Did you find it difficult to adjust to living in Washington full-time?
18:27 Speaker 05 I didn't find it difficult, but they're very different. Philadelphia is a city of neighborhoods and different ethnicities. You know, there's a Vietnamese neighborhood, a Chinese neighborhood, a Jewish neighborhood, Polish, Italian, on and on. And, you know, it's a city of allegiances to Philadelphia. It's one of the reasons why it's so fun to be a Philadelphia sports fan, sometimes.
18:52 Alec Baldwin? Philadelphia sports fans.
18:53 Speaker 05 Sorry, I'm one of them. And if I panned up my camera, you'd see all the memorabilia.
18:58 Alec Baldwin? I know you want to see it.
18:58 Speaker 05 But... Washington is very much a company town. Washington reminds me more, I lived in Los Angeles very, very briefly. After college, I went to film school. I went to USC Film School for one semester and I found, even though I know Los Angeles is not Hollywood and I'm well aware of how huge Los Angeles is and how it's not just the industry. But I was at film school, so I was in the industry world of it. And DC feels a lot like that to me. It's a, it's a company town and it's tough. And I think LA is the same way.
19:33 Alec Baldwin? Then when you went to USC, you lasted one semester? Why?
19:36 Speaker 05 One semester. But first of all, I, I went into, I wanted to be a writer and maybe director. The truth is, I didn't know what I wanted to do after college. And all my friends were going to law school. And I had taken some film classes and I really liked them and I was interested in film. And this was like the era of Spike Lee and John Singleton and, you know, the auteur, Quentin Tarantino. And there was this kind of romance about it. And, and again, I didn't know what I wanted to do. My dad made me pay for it. That's one of the reasons why it only lasted one semester because I was, I was paying for it. So it was like, okay. And then after a while, I didn't-
20:16 Alec Baldwin? Everything became clear real quickly.
20:18 Speaker 05 Well, I didn't know, first of all, I didn't even know that that's what I wanted to do. And I, you know, it just, it just seemed questionable to me that I should spend my money on that. Also, just the first year out of college is, for me at least, and I think for a lot of people, it's just such a miserable time and I didn't know what I wanted. I, I didn't become a full-time journalist until I was like 29. So it took me a little while of running around in, in the wilderness.
20:44 Alec Baldwin? Journalist and author Jake Tapper. If you enjoy conversations with journalists, check out my episode with the former executive editor of The New York Times, Jill Abramson.
20:56 Speaker 06 There's a traditional separation between the editorial department and editorial views of the paper and-
21:05 Alec Baldwin? News gathering.
21:05 Speaker 06 And news gathering. And, but, you know, a lot of people don't know that. Even a lot of political people in Washington didn't know it. So in Washington, it was actually, it advantaged me because in 1994, for example, when Gingrich took over the House, like there were Republicans who would gladly talk to me.
21:29 Alec Baldwin? To hear more of my conversation with Jill Abramson, go to hearsthething.org. After the break, Jake Tapper talks about the genesis of his latest book, entitled Original Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again.
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23:37 Alec Baldwin? I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Jake Tapper is currently CNN's lead Washington anchor and chief correspondent. Tapper hosts both an evening show during the week and co-hosts State of the Union on Sunday mornings. In addition to his relentless television schedule, Tapper has written five novels and recently published a sixth nonfiction book titled Original Sin. I was curious how Tapper finds the time to write while staying on top of America's political news.
24:10 Speaker 05 It's just a constant thing where I always have either my laptop or something with me, a computer of some sort, an iPad right now because I'm working on an artistic book.
24:21 Alec Baldwin? Everyone in my office, my producers, I didn't know this, they introduced me to the idea that you're quite the illustrator.
24:26 Speaker 05 Yeah, I don't know how good I am, but I try. I'm writing, I'm writing right now a graphic novel, except it's not a novel, it's nonfiction of, about Klaus Barbie, the Nazi.
24:35 Alec Baldwin? Uh huh.
24:36 Speaker 05 And the hunt for him and, and all that. But in any case, no, it's just nonstop writing.
24:41 Alec Baldwin? What was his nickname again? The Butcher of what?
24:43 Speaker 05 The Butcher of Lyon.
24:45 Alec Baldwin? Oh Lyon, wait for it.
24:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, The Butcher of Lyon. Good memory. It's really a fascinating story, but the writing is just nonstop. Whether it's Google Docs or Word, I'm just always working and I do a lot in the morning, actually.
24:59 Alec Baldwin? So when a book idea comes into your mind, and I'm sure like a lot of writers, there's multiple ideas and some are rejected and so forth, you do the book about Biden, Original Sin. What was the genesis of that?
25:08 Speaker 05 The genesis was that we all went through this crazy thing, the debate, which I happen to have a front row seat to, and it obviously shocked everybody how bad he was. And I wanted to know, okay, well, what really happened here? How bad was it behind the scenes? Because there's no way this just happened that moment. And there'd been a little reporting about it, but not a ton. And I said to my agent before the election, I think Trump's going to win and I think people are going to be wanting to figure out why that happened. And talking to Democrats, they think the original sin was that Biden shouldn't have ever run for reelection. And then he should never have tried to hide his diminishment.
25:49 Speaker 05 And then after the election, I hooked up with Alex Thompson of Axios and we got to work on it. But it was really just one of these books where like I wanted to know the answer, I would have been happy to read about it, but because nobody else was writing it, I decided to write it.
26:04 Alec Baldwin? So USC, you decide you have to pay for the end, the vicious ending of your movie career.
26:11 Speaker 05 Well, except I wrote a book about Afghanistan that they turned into a movie and I was an executive producer on that. So it's not the vicious end of it, it's just the pause of my film career.
26:20 Alec Baldwin? You were the director's chair. Tell us about that movie, that book and that movie.
26:22 Speaker 05 So the book is The Outpost and it was one of these books that I wrote that I would have gladly just read, but nobody was telling the story. It was about an outpost that was overrun in Afghanistan on October 3rd, 2009. It was built at the bottom of three steep mountains and it was the deadliest day for America in Afghanistan that year, 2009. And after, you know, I was in the hospital room because my son had just been born the day before. And I was watching news reports about this outpost and nobody could explain why it was built at the bottom of three steep mountains in this treacherous corner of Afghanistan, right near the Pakistan border. And I waited for somebody to explain it to me and nobody ever did, months and months and months.
27:03 Speaker 05 And then I started asking questions and making phone calls and then it became this book about the existence of this outpost. And then other people started reaching out who had served at the outpost, hearing that I was writing this book. Because I was just going to focus on the battle in 2009. And they would say, oh no, I, you know, we were in charge of building the outpost in 2006 and let me tell you our story. And then it just became this bigger book. It became kind of a metaphor for the war and the existence of this outpost and the good intentions behind it and why it was obviously such a mistake in the end. And they turned that into a film. Rod Lurie directed it. It was Caleb Landry Jones and Orlando Bloom and Scott Eastwood, Clint Eastwood's son.
27:48 Alec Baldwin? Good cast. I love Scott.
27:49 Speaker 05 And Milo Gibson was in it too, Milo Gibson's son. And it was good. It was a good movie. He did a really good job, Rod. And it was very authentic and a lot of people who served there and served at other places find that movie really meaningful and well done. It was supposed to debut at the South by Southwest Festival in March 2020. And then COVID shut it down. So not as many people know about the film, but it's out there. It's a streamer. It's on Netflix. I think you'd like it. I mean, it's really, it's really well done.
28:19 Alec Baldwin? Now, do you have to kind of get off of a train, I'm assuming, to write a book? I mean, you just, you just steal the moments?
28:25 Speaker 05 I steal the moments. And for me, I don't know how you wrote yours, but for me, structure is the most important part of writing a book, whether it's fiction or nonfiction. And I've written three novels too, although I find.
28:37 Alec Baldwin? I want to talk to you about that.
28:38 Speaker 05 I find nonfiction much easier. Of course, it's what I do day in, day out, but it's, but fiction I find much more difficult.
28:45 Alec Baldwin? You enjoy it? Fiction?
28:47 Speaker 05 I do.
28:48 Alec Baldwin? Do you wish you had more time for it?
28:50 Speaker 05 No.
28:52 Speaker 05 I don't. I don't.
28:54 Alec Baldwin? But you wrote a series about a couple.
28:57 Speaker 05 I wrote a series.
28:58 Alec Baldwin? Murder mysteries?
28:59 Speaker 05 Yeah, I wrote a series, Charlie and Margaret Martyr. The first one's The Hellfire Club, takes place during the Joe McCarthy years. The second one is The Devil May Dance, takes place during the Rat Pack years. And the third one is All the Demons Are Here, it takes place in the, in 1977. And actually, right now, I'm talking to, I've been, I'm working with some folks out in Hollywood about turning the second one, the Rat Pack one, into a possible streamer.
29:25 Alec Baldwin? Was there a period there where you're saying to your wife, no, honey, I gotta go to Vegas. It's research for my book. I gotta go.
29:31 Speaker 05 There's only, I don't think, actually, we have that many scenes in Vegas. It's mostly Palm Springs in LA, but, but, you know, I wrote that actually during COVID. And that was fun to write because, you know, I'd be dealing with COVID. This is back when I was broadcasting from my garage, you know, above the garage during COVID, when like studios were shut down. Like from March 2020 to August 2020, I was broadcasting from home. And during that period where I had free time, because there was no commute and, you know, our kids were being educated at home, educated, quote unquote. I would write a scene and then I would come back to reality and it was very enjoyable. I, because it was just like,
30:13 Speaker 05 I just spent two hours eating Italian food with the Rat Pack. And that was a great rescue and respite from the horror of that era.
30:21 Alec Baldwin? I did this gambling movie called The Cooler and I got nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor and I go to dinner at this famous joint in LA.
30:29 Speaker 05 It's a great movie. That's William H. Macy, right?
30:30 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, Bill Macy. Yeah, and the guy that directed it was a great guy. I just loved him. Wayne Kramer. I'm going into this restaurant after the Oscars to have dinner and there's Tina Sinatra.
30:41 Speaker 05 Oh, wow.
30:41 Alec Baldwin? And not Nancy. There's Tina Sinatra with a bevy of people at a table and she goes, "Somebody get this kid a script, kid." I was like, you know, this is 2003. I was in my 40s. And she goes, "Somebody get this kid a script. He should play pop in a movie. You should play my pop in a movie." I'm going, "Oh, my God."
30:57 Speaker 05 I met her too. I met Tina too. She came up to me. I was in LA and she came up to me. I was like waiting outside a restaurant and I told her, you know, I'm like, "Hey, I wrote this book and your dad's a character in it." And I sent her a copy of the book and she sent me a copy of hers. My portrayal of him was not as a bad guy, but certainly he was a dark figure with suicide attempts and all sorts of...
31:22 Alec Baldwin? Did he really?
31:23 Speaker 05 Oh, yeah. You know, what I learned about him when researching my book is really interesting. Ava Gardner really broke his heart and he tried to commit suicide. But, you know, one of the things about Sinatra that people don't realize is the degree to which he and JFK broke up. And in fact, in that famous birthday party for President Kennedy at Madison Square Garden.
31:46 Alec Baldwin? And she sings.
31:47 Speaker 05 When Marilyn Monroe sings and she's drunk and pilled out and just a complete mess. And if you watch the whole thing, not just like the sexy clip, if you watch the whole thing, you'll see she's a complete and utter disaster and she only, she dies a few months later. But Sinatra's not there. Frank Sinatra is not there and it's because they had this breakup. And this is kind of like what inspired me to write this book. JFK's going out to California. He's going out to LA. This is a true story. And Sinatra wants him to stay at his Ranch of Mirage right near Palm Springs estate. And he builds a helipad and he adds additional rooms added and he has phone lines put in for the press.
32:28 Speaker 05 And people at the FBI tell Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General, you can't be waging war against the mob. And then your brother goes to Sinatra's house. Like Sinatra's, he has mob ties. He's a, you know, he's legitimately got mob ties, which he did. Sam Giancana and others were friends of his. And at that point, Sinatra's connection to the Kennedy family is over because the father had the stroke in December 1962. That was his real, that was his close connection to the family. And Bobby, who Sinatra hated and who hated Sinatra, he kiboshes the visit.
33:08 Speaker 05 So Kennedy stays with like Bing Crosby, like the ultimate insult. Uh, and
33:17 Alec Baldwin? Exactly.
33:18 Speaker 05 And
33:19 Alec Baldwin? The guy who can really sing.
33:20 Speaker 05 And Sinatra, when he gets the news, he, he loses his shit and he takes a sledgehammer to the helipad and he, when I heard this story, and it's a true story. When I heard it, I was like, oh my God, I have to set my next novel in this. And so I did, that's what The Devil May Dance is about. But in any case, like, I just couldn't even
33:36 Alec Baldwin? That's a movie.
33:36 Speaker 05 I know, I couldn't even believe it. And it's just like, but, but people don't realize the degree to which they like, they ended on bad terms. That when Kennedy got assassinated, he and Sinatra were not friends anymore.
33:47 Alec Baldwin? Well, I have a theory about him, a funny theory. And I'm ashamed to admit this or embarrassed, but not really. And I thought, here's a guy, I could have been best friends with him. I could have been best friends. You want to know why? Cause I would have told him the truth.
33:58 Speaker 05 Yeah.
33:58 Alec Baldwin? I was, I would have said, don't do that. Don't say this, don't, you, you, you're a person who is, you are a god in the music industry.
34:04 Speaker 05 But Alex, a lot of, a lot of guys get so big in their career, they don't want that.
34:08 Alec Baldwin? Right.
34:09 Speaker 05 We all need it. We all need it. I need it, you need it, we all need somebody. I mean, and if you're lucky enough, that person might be your spouse even. I mean, that's my case and also my staff. My staff will tell me also, but I think that's one of the problems Trump has. I think that's one of the problems Biden had. I think, you know, I think a lot of times you need people like that to say, no, don't do that, bad idea. And, you know, those guardrails are, are necessary. But I'm sure you, and that's not to take away your dream. I mean, I, you know, when you, when you go to bed, if you want to have a dream about being in the Rat Pack, I think you'd be a good one.
34:44 Alec Baldwin? Journalist and author Jake Tapper. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeart Radio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Jake Tapper takes us behind the scenes of his first presidential debate in 2015.
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35:42 Speaker 12 This is Stugatz from Stugatz and Company Live. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features N-Tech, or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you can get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.
36:22 Speaker 08 Hello?
36:22 Speaker 09 Hey, it's me, your wallet.
36:24 Speaker 08 Oh, hey.
36:25 Speaker 09 I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?
36:29 Speaker 08 Absolutely.
36:30 Speaker 09 Really?
36:31 Speaker 08 Yep. I'm shopping at Food Lion.
36:33 Speaker 09 Wait, you mean low prices?
36:34 Speaker 08 And MVP savings.
36:36 Speaker 09 Oh, you do care.
36:37 Speaker 08 Obviously.
36:38 Speaker 09 Okay, I feel better.
36:39 Speaker 08 Good. Now, let's go get some snacks.
36:43 Speaker 10 At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.
37:03 Alec Baldwin? I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Jake Tapper has moderated several high-profile presidential debates for CNN. He first moderated the 2015 GOP primary debate, which drew a record number of viewers. In 2019 and 2020, Tapper co-moderated key Democratic debates, as well as the infamous and only Biden-Trump general election debate in 2024 alongside Dana Bash. Praised for his thorough preparation, Tapper nonetheless faced criticism for not fact-checking live. I was curious if Tapper relished the opportunity to earn such a high-profile assignment.
37:48 Speaker 05 Oh, no, I was terrified. I was terrified. I had done debates before, primary debates, never a presidential. It's one of those things that you know you have to do. I don't know, is it maybe like when you were cast in Streetcar? I don't know, like you know you have to do it and you know, you hope you're gonna rise to it, but God, it was nerve-wracking.
38:10 Alec Baldwin? I had to block out the intrusive thoughts when I'm doing Streetcar, yeah, that was tough. And then I met him, I had lunch with him at his house in LA and I said, I said, you know, I did Streetcar. He goes, yeah, I heard about that from my friends, they said they saw you and said, you were very, very good, you were very good.
38:24 Speaker 05 That's good.
38:25 Alec Baldwin? And he goes, I know, my friends told me you tried to make it funny. And I wish I had done that because it's a very funny part, there's a lot of humor in that part. And I wish I'd done that. And there's a long pause and I go, but you're happy with the way it worked out, correct? I mean, it all worked out for you, you know, the way you did, you chose to do it. And he's like, now, the one thing I'm always into is, you did a lot of reporting about Enron.
38:50 Speaker 05 I did, back in the day.
38:51 Alec Baldwin? When you reported that story, do you think that that's business as usual now? Everyone's doing the same thing?
38:56 Speaker 05 It's so funny you say that, because we, I do this show called United States of Scandal. It's a, just like a six-episode show that we do like once every year or two. And in the second season, we did Enron. And I went back and looked at the stuff I did covering Enron in... I guess that was 2001, 2002. And I had, you know, some really good sources. And so I was able to break some good stories there. People went to prison in Enron. And I think that people don't go to prison for that kind of thing anymore. It feels that way, doesn't it? And like, I mean, nobody, or very few people, I mean, it depends on how you do the, the math. But like, the housing crisis in 2008 and all the slimy chicanery that went on there.
39:39 Speaker 05 I don't think anybody major went to prison, despite the fact that they were making millions, hundreds of millions of dollars off of the despair of the American people.
39:48 Alec Baldwin? The Enron thing always pushes me toward this idea that, and this is one of the most passionate things for me that I, just drives me insane. And that is, this country and conservatives and think tanks and everybody who are the, the framework, if you will, of the conservative pro-business movement, or pro-business consciousness, they are all the same. And this is one of their greatest successes. But if I stand up and I advocate for no oil drilling, and there's nothing in it for me.
40:11 Speaker 05 Right.
40:11 Alec Baldwin? Nothing in it for me.
40:12 Speaker 05 Right.
40:13 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, but then that's why people dismiss you. When, when the head of an oil company stands up and testifies on behalf of legislation and wants to change the legislation, so that he's going to get millions of dollars worth of stock options when they come down the other end of the pipeline. I'm like, that doesn't bother you? People who are motivated, but in America, it doesn't. It doesn't.
40:30 Speaker 05 It doesn't. No, you're right.
40:31 Alec Baldwin? People look at those guys and they're like, well, ex-officio, that's his job. You know what I mean?
40:34 Speaker 05 Yeah. Well, it's also just why people, I mean, it polls well to tax the wealthier individuals. But it's not the slam dunk with every community that you think it might be, because people think that they're going to be rich someday too. Uh, that is part of the American ethos.
40:50 Alec Baldwin? Although Gray Davis was a good guy. I liked him. His persona when he was in office, he was a good guy. He is a good guy. I liked him a lot.
40:56 Speaker 05 I mean, that recall, I went out to LA. I had just started at ABC News and, and Diane Sawyer, uh, and the executive producer of Good Morning America, Shelley Ross, took a shine to me and they sent me out there to cover the recall. And wow, what a goat fuck that was. Do you remember Arianna Huffington was running?
41:15 Alec Baldwin? Yes.
41:16 Speaker 05 Here's a little lesson for anybody young listening. The reason that Diane Sawyer and Shelley Ross took a shine to me, and this is I had just started at ABC. I was staying in corporate housing in DC. They just moved me back from New York where I lived for a year. And Arnold had announced on, I think the Tonight Show with Jay Leno, that he was running for governor. And so the email went out internally at ABC, and I reached out to Diane and Shelley and said, oh, I'd love, it was like nine o'clock at night. I'd love to come in right now, do a piece for tomorrow morning about Arnold running. And I have all these ideas for clips from movies that he did that we can make fun for the viewer and blah, blah, blah. And they liked it. And like, it was honestly
41:58 Speaker 05 just raising your hand and doing the work is, and I'm sure this has been the experience in your career as well, just raising your hand and doing the work, you know?
42:06 Alec Baldwin? People say, why do I do the podcast? I have a chance to do, not a deep dive, but certainly a deeper dive than what I see. I'm reading this article in an older New Yorker now where the guy is writing, Menand is writing a review of the William F. Buckley book.
42:19 Speaker 05 Oh, yeah, by Tannenhouse.
42:21 Alec Baldwin? I find Buckley so intriguing.
42:23 Speaker 05 You should have Chris on, Chris Buckley. I wonder what he thinks about this biography.
42:26 Alec Baldwin? Interesting. That's a good, that's a good call.
42:28 Speaker 05 He is so fascinating. Do you know the story about when Buckley got a guy out of prison? It's this fascinating story. William F. Buckley takes on the charge of this guy who's in prison who insists he's innocent. And Buckley lobbies for him. And the guy's very literate and has self-taught and is a writer. And then the guy gets out and he tries to kill someone else. He was guilty the whole time.
42:53 Alec Baldwin? Jack Henry Abbott is the guy that Mailer helped to get sprung.
42:56 Speaker 05 And he was, and he was guilty too?
42:57 Alec Baldwin? And then he went out, well, he went out and I think he tried to kill somebody else.
43:00 Speaker 05 So that's incredible that Buckley did it. So Buckley did it.
43:02 Alec Baldwin? Buckley and Mailer.
43:03 Speaker 05 It's incredible.
43:04 Alec Baldwin? One thing they have in common.
43:05 Speaker 05 The Buck, so Buckley.
43:06 Alec Baldwin? Creating murderers.
43:07 Speaker 05 Buckley picks him up from prison. Drives him to the studio and they shoot two episodes of Firing Line in a row. And I mean, and by the way, I like, I have no doubt that Buckley was convinced that the guy was innocent and this was noble and he was trying to do a good thing. And I'm not making light of it all, but it's just a fascinating and horrifying story.
43:28 Alec Baldwin? That's a great doc to compare and contrast the two of them advocating for murderous.
43:32 Speaker 05 I didn't know Mailer did that. I need to, I need to look up Mailer.
43:34 Alec Baldwin? Let me just say, I'm a huge fan of yours.
43:36 Speaker 05 Well, thank you so much, Alec.
43:37 Alec Baldwin? My news diet, but I come home and I'm down on a couch. My kids are having their dinner and I don't bother having dinner with them anymore because they just ignore me and then, and then we'll hang out afterward. But I sit down in front of a TV and watch the lead nearly every day. That's a big part of my news feed.
43:54 Speaker 05 Thank you so much. That's very, very kind of you.
44:01 Alec Baldwin? My thanks to journalist and author Jake Tapper. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City and Monk Music in East Hampton, New York. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeese and Victoria DeMartin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
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45:38 Speaker 12 This is Stugatz from Stugatz and Company Live. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla Sedan with the latest features N-Tec. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you can get more at trade-in. Get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.
46:18 Speaker 08 What's that?
46:19 Speaker 13 My fresh detector.
46:20 Speaker 08 Uh, your what?
46:21 Speaker 13 There it is.
46:22 Speaker 08 What is it detecting?
46:24 Speaker 13 Fresh produce? Fresh meat?
46:27 Speaker 08 Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?
46:32 Speaker 13 Apparently, we celebrate.
46:34 Speaker 10 At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices. When your fresh detector is going off, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
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