Pod Insights Here's The Thing with Alec Baldwin Victor Garber on Stage and Screen About this episode Victor Garber is a prolific actor and singer who seamlessly traverses theater, film, and television. He originated roles in iconic musicals such as “Sweeney Todd”, “Godspell”, “Noises Off”, and “Assassins”. Garber also appeared in Oscar award-winning films such as “Titanic”, “Argo”, and “Milk”. You may also recognize him as Jack Bristow from the long-standing ABC series “Alias”. A six-time Emmy award nominee and recent recipient of the Forest City Film Festival Lifetime Achievement Award, Victor Garber has done everything from perform on the Ed Sullivan Show with his 1960’s band “The Sugar Shoppe” to defend a murder trial in “Legally Blonde”.
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1:36 Alec Baldwin? This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio.
1:42 Speaker 05 Damn my soul if you must. Let my body turn to dust. Let it mingle with the ashes of the country. Let them curse me to hell. Leave it to history to tell. What I did, I did well. And I did it for my country. Let them cry, dirty traitor. They will understand it later.
2:18 Alec Baldwin? That's Victor Garber, performing the Ballad of Booth from the original Off-Broadway cast recording of Stephen Sondheim's Assassins in 1991.
2:30 Alec Baldwin? Victor Garber is a prolific actor and singer, who originated roles in iconic musicals such as Sweeney Todd and Gatsby. You may recognize him as Jack Bristow in the intrepid TV series Alias, or from his notable roles in Oscar-winning films like Titanic, Argo, and Milk. A six-time Emmy Award nominee, Garber found his love for the performing arts as a child, having grown up surrounded by music and theater in Ontario, Canada. I was curious to learn about his roots as a young performer.
3:07 Speaker 05 When I was thirteen, or twelve, I went to Children's Theatre, the Grand Theatre, which still exists in London, Ontario. And it was like, it was beautiful, built in the nineteen, early 1900s. And I, you know, I played Tom Sawyer when I was like eleven. And it was my first starring role, and boy, I just never stopped. I knew, and it was so early, that that's what I wanted to do. So I was fortunate. And I was in a singing group. And then I moved to Toronto when I was sixteen, and then started, my life just kind of went.
3:37 Alec Baldwin? Did you go to Juilliard? Where'd you go?
3:39 Speaker 05 No, I didn't, I'm a, I never studied.
3:42 Alec Baldwin? You never studied?
3:42 Speaker 05 Never studied.
3:43 Alec Baldwin? Well, I was saying this the other day, that people have an instinctual gift.
3:47 Speaker 05 You know, I copied really good actors. But I'm better on the first take. But anyway, yeah.
3:51 Alec Baldwin? Better on the first take.
3:53 Speaker 05 I am, actually.
3:53 Alec Baldwin? When you're working all the time and the cylinders are firing all the time, that's when I found it easier to act, because I was always, those juices were flowing, literally. And now I don't work that much. And when I go to work, I'm literally, people don't appreciate this, and you sound like maybe you're the same. Which is, I stand there on the first take, and I go, "What do you do again?"
4:11 Speaker 05 Yeah.
4:12 Alec Baldwin? "What do I do? I forgot what I do." And then you kind of get slowly heated up.
4:15 Speaker 05 Yeah. Yeah, I haven't done a play since Hello, Dolly, which was-
4:19 Alec Baldwin? 2018.
4:21 Alec Baldwin? I saw this article that you did where you talked about you didn't want to sing anymore. You were going to give up singing. It was painful.
4:26 Speaker 05 Yeah.
4:27 Alec Baldwin? And when, what was the moment, if I can say there was a moment or two where you realized that your voice was changing?
4:33 Speaker 05 Well, you know, Hello Dolly wasn't, you know, that role wasn't demanding vocally so much, although A Penny in My Pocket is one of the trickiest, most difficult songs that seems like it shouldn't be, but it's really a hard song to sing. And I finally, the last day, last performance was the only time I felt like I had gotten where I wanted to be. And it's because if you don't really work on your voice every day, you know, singing is, it's a muscle. So I'm actually trying to get my voice back because we're doing this documentary about Godspell, the 1972 production that I did with all those people that became famous. And they're doing-
5:13 Alec Baldwin? Was Cardino in that?
5:14 Speaker 05 Well, he, I, I got him that job because I, I was cast in the movie. David Green, I played Jesus with David Green, and he one day called me and said, I'm now going to ask you to play another impossible part. You played Jesus and now I want you to play Liberace.
5:32 Speaker 05 That's him, that's two.
5:33 Alec Baldwin? My God.
5:33 Speaker 05 And, and I said, I will do it only because you're directing it. Anyway, but yeah, singing is, it's so, I want to sing at this Godspell kind of dinner that we're going to have in, in January in, in LA because Paul Shaffer will be there at the piano and I know he's going to start playing the intro to Save the People, which is the song I started the show with. And I want to be able to approximate something, you know, just to, just to be able, because everybody will want to sing and my muscles have so atrophied. So I'm, every day I get up and for about five minutes I try and I think, no, it's not going to work. So I'm still, I'm still hopeful.
6:10 Alec Baldwin? Well, let me then, I won't talk about your current singing career because there is none.
6:14 Speaker 05 Right.
6:15 Alec Baldwin? And we'll talk about your former singing career where I-
6:17 Speaker 05 Massive, a massive singing career.
6:19 Alec Baldwin? Well, no, listen, so you originated the role in Assassins, you do, in the first production of Assassins. So in a world that you and I both I'm sure would recognize is, you know, that just all the oxygen gets sucked out of the room where you're with Weidman.
6:32 Speaker 05 Yeah.
6:33 Alec Baldwin? And Sondheim.
6:34 Speaker 05 Sondheim is why I came to New York.
6:36 Alec Baldwin? Right.
6:36 Speaker 05 When I was a kid in Toronto, I heard Anyone Can Whistle, the first actual musical he wrote, well, he wrote the music and lyrics for.
6:45 Alec Baldwin? Right.
6:46 Speaker 05 And I used to play that to death. And we talked about this and I've actually written about it. It was like a siren call. That music and that sensibility was what brought me to New York. And then I ended up in Sweeney Todd, you know? I remember so distinctly, and my memory is spotty, but I do remember that first preview of Sweeney Todd, when I came back to my dressing room and I closed the door and I just stopped and I thought, I have achieved my dream, to be in a Sondheim musical.
7:20 Alec Baldwin? Who were your cohorts in Sweeney Todd?
7:22 Speaker 05 Angelo Lansbury and Len Carey.
7:24 Alec Baldwin? No.
7:25 Speaker 05 Of course, that was the original company.
7:27 Alec Baldwin? The original company.
7:27 Speaker 05 Yeah. So it's hard for me to, you know, I see the, and there's been some wonderful productions, but nothing will, I remember watching them from the wings every night singing Have a Little Priest, which is one of the Sondheim's masterpieces. And it will never be, ever, ever be done like that, ever. Well, of course it won't because they were themselves, but it's, when I say it's indelible, it really is.
7:52 Alec Baldwin? And who directed Sweeney?
7:54 Speaker 05 Hal Prince.
7:55 Alec Baldwin? Oh, him.
7:55 Speaker 05 Oh, him, yeah.
7:57 Alec Baldwin? But when you go on to do Assassins, I keep focusing on that because I can compare two productions. I've seen Sweeney with different people. I loved the movie that Tim did, I did.
8:06 Speaker 05 Yeah.
8:06 Alec Baldwin? And I know a lot of people didn't care for it.
8:08 Speaker 05 No, it was, yeah.
8:09 Alec Baldwin? I really thought it was good, it was one of the best things Johnny Depp ever did.
8:11 Speaker 05 Yes, I agree.
8:12 Alec Baldwin? And the barber scene that they do with Sacha Baron Cohen.
8:15 Speaker 05 And Helena was great.
8:16 Alec Baldwin? Oh, my God, I really love that movie. My daughter, Ireland, and I, my older daughter would watch it all the time. But there was something, but when I saw you do that and you sing that song, that's when I fell in love with you. I would watch that show with you. Then there's the benefit you did with Patrick Cassidy.
8:33 Speaker 05 Oh.
8:33 Alec Baldwin? Did the concert version.
8:34 Speaker 05 As Carnegie Hall.
8:35 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, you did a concert version.
8:37 Speaker 05 That was, that was, well, we just sang that song. It was a Sondheim, yeah, Scott Ellis.
8:42 Alec Baldwin? Like a Sondheim tribute?
8:43 Speaker 05 It was a Sondheim tribute and they asked us to do that. And I'll never forget it because I've never been, I've never been more nervous in my life. I mean, I, you know, Carnegie Hall and some, for some reason. I was able to, I guess, just disassociate from the experience and just be in the moment. And I've never sung it better. I'm so glad it's recorded. I think it is recorded.
9:07 Alec Baldwin? You did a beautiful job.
9:08 Speaker 05 Well, thank you. But it was life-changing to be a part of that. And then Nathan and I did Wise Guys, and that was the end of Sondheim Love Affair. That one didn't go so well.
9:18 Alec Baldwin? Didn't go so well. You and Nathan did.
9:20 Speaker 05 Nathan Lane and I, we were so excited about it. And the show evolved into, I think it became roadshow eventually. It's been done. And John Doyle did a production of it. I didn't go near it because I couldn't bear going to see it. Because it was such a painful time for me and for Nathan. He saw it, he gets, he sees everything. But anyway, that was an unfortunate, you know, for many reasons.
9:45 Alec Baldwin? When you go into something like that with armed with that crowd.
9:48 Speaker 05 With high expectations.
9:49 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, well, people who they have the highest expectations, quite frankly.
9:52 Speaker 05 And so did we.
9:53 Alec Baldwin? You included.
9:54 Speaker 05 Yeah.
9:54 Alec Baldwin? When it doesn't, do you smell it a mile away? As you're going along, you're going, I don't know. You're on the phone with your friend and you're just going, I don't know.
10:02 Speaker 05 Well, Nathan and I, we were, that's just the two of us. I mean, we were sort of the main characters. So we were always like, I don't, I'm not sure. I mean, and I don't want to, you know, it was a combination of personalities and the creatives, you know, the side of it, that weren't really working together as one would hope. And also, I think the concept was kind of a misfire. I think it was, they wanted to do it as this kind of Crosby, Hope, roadshow kind of thing. And it was much too dark and complicated so that it never really gelled. And I, I don't know what it ended up being, because I never saw it, but again.
10:41 Alec Baldwin? That you guys were gone and it went on without you?
10:42 Speaker 05 Oh, yeah. No, it was many, many versions of that show.
10:45 Alec Baldwin? And then who eventually opened?
10:47 Speaker 05 Well, they didn't do a Broadway production. No, no, it wasn't on Broadway. It was a, it sort of toured around.
10:53 Alec Baldwin? Now, people list you in Wikipedia or these really common sites for the show as Canadian actor. You've confused yourself as a Canadian actor? Do Canadians have to have that in there for their cred back home?
11:03 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, but I've just been, you know, I'm about. To get the Order of Canada, so I have to be really careful.
11:08 Alec Baldwin? You're the Canadian activist.
11:10 Speaker 05 I normally wear my pin.
11:11 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, your jacket, your blazer.
11:13 Speaker 05 Marty Short, Eugene Levy, Paul Shaffer, and I finally got mine. And it was, it's a great honor. It's sort of as big as you can get in Canada. It's like getting a knighthood or something.
11:23 Alec Baldwin? Right.
11:24 Speaker 05 But nobody cares as much. It's an enormous honor and we're going to Ottawa next week. And I was honored at my hometown about a month ago as a Lifetime Achievement Award in London, Ontario. And they now have this film festival in London, Ontario. I know you'll be charming at the bit to get there, but it's.
11:43 Alec Baldwin? I'll go if you go.
11:44 Speaker 05 Yeah, okay.
11:44 Alec Baldwin? You did two Shakespearean actors.
11:46 Speaker 05 I did with Brian Bedford.
11:47 Alec Baldwin? Oh my God, when I saw you do that, you put a spell on me. I'm not just, as an actor, you put a spell on me. I've tried to do that play so many times and everybody said the same thing after you guys did it. You don't see it in New York anymore. Why? There's a big cast.
12:00 Speaker 05 Too many people.
12:00 Alec Baldwin? A lot of people.
12:01 Speaker 05 Brian and I talked about this even then, that it should be a movie. And it was a life-changing experience for me because I'd never really done Shakespeare. And now I'm suddenly doing all these scenes from Shakespeare.
12:12 Alec Baldwin? You were Forest.
12:13 Speaker 05 I was, yes, Forest.
12:15 Alec Baldwin? You were Forest and he was the Brit.
12:17 Speaker 05 Yes, McCready.
12:18 Alec Baldwin? Yes, McCready and Forest, yeah.
12:19 Speaker 05 Yeah, who were rivals and the story is so.
12:23 Alec Baldwin? It's wonderful.
12:24 Speaker 05 Story.
12:25 Alec Baldwin? The biggest riot in New York and the highest death toll from a public riot in history up to that point. Hundred and forty people, I think, died or something.
12:32 Speaker 05 Yeah, it was.
12:33 Alec Baldwin? You and Bedford.
12:34 Speaker 05 He was really great to work with. He really liked me. And so he was very generous with me and also we had very little to do on stage together. So that was probably the best thing because it could have gone very awry.
12:49 Alec Baldwin? I like to act alone.
12:51 Speaker 05 Yes.
12:51 Alec Baldwin? Well, I like you over there.
12:53 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah.
12:53 Alec Baldwin? But I'm here and you're over there.
12:55 Speaker 05 I'm just fine on my own. He was remarkable and I loved doing that play. I loved doing that.
13:01 Alec Baldwin? My God, I loved doing that. I loved you in that play. I loved it. And that storyline where the boy wants to come with you, the young man, man is gonna come with you.
13:08 Speaker 05 It's such a compelling story and and also it could be so beautiful to look at.
13:13 Alec Baldwin? So, once you come to New York, what year is that?
13:17 Speaker 05 It was in the seventies to do the movie of Godspell, early seventies.
13:21 Alec Baldwin? You didn't stay or you did?
13:22 Speaker 05 Well, you know, I had to get a green card. I knew that I always wanted to be on Broadway. That's always my dream and to work with Sonheim. And so I actually worked illegally for a while because I didn't have a social security number. But I do now. I've had a long time. I was just, I had to live in New York City. The first job I did in New York was at the original Roundabout Theater, which was underneath the grocery store on 26th and 8th Avenue. Titanic, just before it moved to the new theater, that's where it opened. And I went back there for the first time to see Titanic. And that was the first theater I'd ever worked in. It was still, you know, this.
14:06 Alec Baldwin? So the Roundabout is somewhere else, but that's what's the theater there now?
14:09 Speaker 05 It's not, it's gone. They.
14:11 Alec Baldwin? Titanic was when?
14:13 Speaker 05 It was a couple of years ago, when they opened it, before they moved to, I think it's Daryl Roth's Theater or one of those theaters.
14:20 Alec Baldwin? But I remember seeing there on Union Square.
14:22 Speaker 05 Union Square, yeah. But before that, the first place they did it was the first job I ever had with Beatrice Strait, who you probably won't, do you remember Beatrice Strait?
14:31 Alec Baldwin? Of course I do.
14:32 Speaker 05 Yes, she won, you know, an Oscar for a seven-minute scene in Network. And she was a very, oh, what's the word, wealthy, that's the word. She was from a very famous family in England, a very fancy school over there. She was the most generous and kind of maternal, she was a fantastic woman and she took care of me. And I played Oswald and she played mother. Mother gave me the son. And that changed my life. I got a Theater World Award. That was the beginning of everything for me. And also, the fact that I sort of came into New York doing an Ibsen play
15:11 Speaker 05 saved me from being a musical theater actor, which is what I, you know, I longed to do and did, but I didn't want to be typed. And that was kind of a great way of doing it.
15:23 Alec Baldwin? Once you have a beachhead here and you're doing plays here, how quickly after that, like by what year do you pivot where you're making more films and TV?
15:32 Speaker 05 No, movie, there was not a steady climb at all. I mean, the first movie I did, Paul Schrader cast me in a movie called Light Sleeper, which came out of the blue.
15:42 Alec Baldwin? With Willem Dafoe and Susan Sarandon.
15:44 Speaker 05 With Willem and Susan Sarandon, yeah. It's a really good movie and he-
15:47 Alec Baldwin? He's a drug dealer, right?
15:48 Speaker 05 Yes, he's a Swiss drug dealer and, you know, like, who else but me to play that role?
15:52 Alec Baldwin? What's the Swiss touch in drug dealing?
15:54 Speaker 05 It's, it's, I don't, can't remember exactly how I spoke, but I was young. I was young and, but I didn't really get, movies were late in my life. I think by Titanic was I was in my 40s already and, and so, yeah, I, my movie career was very spotty. First Wives Club, I think, was the, the first movie I did. And that was a long time.
16:16 Alec Baldwin? But the thing is, is that, like, when you, before Alias, obviously, and after Alias, you know, when you have success, you're, as long as you're successful, you're welcome out there. They all want you to come. Did you shoot Alias in the, in LA?
16:28 Speaker 05 Yes, well, J.J. Abrams, you know, changed my life, your fat show. Because that was, how he saw me in that role was still, I'm not sure how he did, but it worked. And Ron Rifkin, you know, two people, and we were, we were both spies. And we both were pinching ourselves that we were a part of this. And, uh, you know, everything changed after that. But it was never, I always felt like I was not really a part of the movie world.
16:55 Alec Baldwin? You felt that way?
16:56 Speaker 05 Yeah, you know, I mean, my friends, you know, Bill Hurt and Kevin Kline and, you know, because, and they were straight and I wasn't. And I think that was a great-
17:03 Alec Baldwin? You think so?
17:04 Speaker 05 Oh, I, I know so.
17:05 Alec Baldwin? Really?
17:06 Speaker 05 Yeah.
17:06 Alec Baldwin? So you know, and it was, without getting into great detail, it was conveyed to you by other people's behavior, posture, tonality, like you were around people who they just weren't-
17:16 Speaker 05 Well, just that I wasn't being seen for roles that I, I could have been seen for.
17:19 Alec Baldwin? Yes.
17:20 Speaker 05 You know, I may not have gotten, ironically, the one show that I, the movie that I was up for and nearly got was The World According to Garp.
17:27 Alec Baldwin? Right.
17:28 Speaker 05 And John Lithgow, me, and a wonderful actor. Oddly enough, two straight men and one gay man and the straight man both, anyway, I didn't get it.
17:37 Alec Baldwin? No, no, no, Abrams, there was none of that. He wanted you and that was it. He didn't really give a shit about-
17:42 Speaker 05 No, he just- He saw something in me and I had it. You know, I didn't know I could do it, honestly.
17:49 Alec Baldwin? Well, I mean, I think anything with a guy smart and handsome and charming and urbane is in your field of gravity, but so she becomes a big star on that show.
18:00 Speaker 05 Jennifer.
18:01 Alec Baldwin? Jennifer Garner is, that's her big breakout thing is doing, what was the character's name again?
18:05 Speaker 05 Sidney.
18:06 Alec Baldwin? Sidney.
18:06 Speaker 05 Sidney Bristow.
18:07 Alec Baldwin? Sidney Bristow, and nothing was more fun than watching Jennifer Garner in some karate tights kicking the shit out of somebody or whatever she was doing on that show.
18:14 Speaker 05 Well, she was a masterful, I mean, that changed television, that show.
18:17 Alec Baldwin? I know, in what way do you?
18:18 Speaker 05 Well, because there was nothing like it, ever.
18:20 Alec Baldwin? Ever.
18:21 Speaker 05 I mean, that pilot is considered one of the great pilots, it's actually worth seeing the pilot, again, because it's just one of the great pilots ever done.
18:29 Alec Baldwin? Right.
18:30 Speaker 05 And JJ directed it and he created it and, and then everything, you know, then there were a lot of wannabes after that, but, but nothing ever quite was, I guess, I get stopped all the time about that show.
18:41 Alec Baldwin? Yeah.
18:42 Speaker 05 You know, mothers and daughters and people, and there are people just discovering it, and it's thrilling because it meant a lot to me, of course.
18:50 Alec Baldwin? But I'm always assuming, and it sounds to me like you, it was also partly a lack of interest other than being viewed a certain way, and that is that, you know, before Alias and certainly after Alias, didn't you want to park yourself up there and just reap the benefits, the benefits in the town? You know, I always find that town, there's a success begets success, you go and do a big hit show and you're lining up your next show as that show's rapping, I mean, it's like stepping on stones over a pond or something, you know?
19:18 Speaker 05 Well, I, in fact-
19:20 Alec Baldwin? Never wanted to live out there?
19:21 Speaker 05 No, I, I, what happened exactly is what you're saying. I, I did two more pilots. They were interesting, not quite good enough, obviously. The one I did love was Eli Stone. Greg Berlanti did, and that was the first, I think, the first series that included music, because Johnny Lee Miller played, he had an aneurysm and he would go into a fit and everything would be sung. And George Michael was actually on that show. It's actually worth seeing. It's a really interesting.
19:55 Alec Baldwin? I'll try, I'll grab that.
19:56 Speaker 05 Eli Stone, it's really.
19:57 Alec Baldwin? That's the name of the episode.
19:58 Speaker 05 That's the name of the show.
19:59 Alec Baldwin? Of the show.
20:00 Speaker 05 And we did 12 episodes. And I said to Reiner, I remember then, I said, "I can't live in L.A. looking for work." I knew I would fall into a very dark hole. And we left. We moved back to New York. He didn't want to leave because he loves the beach, but now we're in, you know, Sag Harbor, so he's very happy.
20:22 Alec Baldwin? Actor and singer Victor Garber. If you enjoy conversations about acting and musical theater, check out my episode with Richard Kind.
20:31 Speaker 06 I know I should be much wealthier. I do everything, I have said this before, I am the Costco of acting. I come in quantity and I come cheap. And that's what it is.
20:42 Alec Baldwin? Like toilet paper.
20:43 Speaker 06 Like toilet paper.
20:44 Alec Baldwin? Bulk.
20:45 Speaker 06 Yes, instead of buying 12 rolls at the CVS.
20:47 Alec Baldwin? Get a case.
20:48 Speaker 06 You got 26 for the same price. Yes, that's me.
20:52 Alec Baldwin? To hear more of my conversation with Richard Kind, go to here'sthething.org. After the break, Victor Garber discusses Stephen Sondheim's controversial musical assassins and originating the role of John Wilkes Booth.
21:14 Speaker 01 Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.
21:34 Speaker 05 To this day, Ordinary would not have done anything and I would have not been able to put it out if Book Talk didn't back it up and if my wife and her friend didn't back it up.
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21:44 Speaker 05 Pretty crazy how like, just one thing.
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21:46 Speaker 05 I mean, you, I bet you, we could point to nine different things in our careers where it's just one thing, all of a sudden, if that one thing didn't happen, then I wouldn't be here.
21:53 Speaker 01 What you're talking about right now is what I've been talking about since the beginning of my career. There's these things outside of you that make everything happen. These other forces somehow came into contact with each other and helped propel you to this place.
22:11 Speaker 05 It's just insane.
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23:31 Alec Baldwin? I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Victor Garber originated the role of John Wilkes Booth in the 1991 off-Broadway production of Stephen Sondheim's Assassins. Despite the powerhouse writing and acting talent, the show was initially not well-received by audiences.
23:53 Speaker 05 People didn't like it. It was very, you know, we were all waving flags. Well, I wasn't. I forget what was going on, but it was all, you know, you know, make America great. It was the New York Theatre Workshop.
24:04 Alec Baldwin? Right.
24:05 Speaker 05 We were the off Broadway, we were the original production.
24:07 Alec Baldwin? The original production.
24:08 Speaker 05 And thank God, there's an album to prove it. The first time I heard that music.
24:13 Alec Baldwin? Right.
24:13 Speaker 05 Thought, how does anyone create this? This is, there just has never been, certainly in a modern world, I mean, there's just no one ever before since.
24:26 Alec Baldwin? What I loved about this is, what you've always had in these roles you've played in the theatre, whether you're singing or not, is great acting inside the singing.
24:35 Speaker 05 Oh, thank you.
24:36 Alec Baldwin? Because I say to people, you've got to be able to try to do both. Someone said to me, oh, New York City Ballet and.
24:41 Speaker 05 American Ballet Theatre.
24:42 Alec Baldwin? American Ballet Theatre. Someone said to me, well, one is they're the better dancers and the other are the better actors.
24:48 Speaker 05 Oh, yeah.
24:49 Alec Baldwin? You don't see both.
24:50 Speaker 05 Right, right.
24:50 Alec Baldwin? So my, not insistence, but my penchant for the man or woman that can sing and act inside the musical theatre has always been, and you've been always like one of the greatest I've ever seen in my life, and in that song, you hear you acting, you know, the way you play, very real. It's real. It's not some, you know, other kind of thing.
25:09 Speaker 05 You know, I honestly thank you. It means a lot to hear you say that, but I don't understand how you can't do it if you don't try to be real. You feel that what's going on emotionally, that's what makes it resonate to an audience, and that's God given. I never thought about it, you know, I never thought, how do I act this song? I just lived the moment that I was in and I happened to be singing. It's really simple, but I'm, you know, I go to the theatre a lot and I'm not going to drop and say any names, but it is astonishing to me that people think what they're doing is acting. I mean, I'm really just, I think, I don't believe one word you're saying, and the audience is buying it and everybody's having a good time.
25:54 Alec Baldwin? Always.
25:55 Speaker 05 Always, always. But I just find, you just have to work harder than you think to get to that place. And I think a lot of people just don't want to put in the extra mileage, you know, it's that it takes to really embody, because we're, all of us are so complicated. People are complicated and we go through so many, in a day, so many moods and changes and, and you have to be able to facilitate that on a stage. I just went to see Peter Gallagher in his play.
26:25 Alec Baldwin? What is he doing?
26:25 Speaker 05 He's doing a Left on 10th. It's charming play that Susan Strowman directed. And we were talking about it and he's really good. And, you know, I've known him my whole life. I've known Peter Gallagher. I was saying, my God, I just, he said, you're so great. And he said, and I said, I don't know if I could do this. He said, it's eight shows a week. I said, I know, that's what I'm saying. He said, I don't know if I can do it. He said, and I thought, and he reminded me why I don't think I really want to do that.
26:58 Alec Baldwin? I can't really so much. I mean, I want to do it and I will, but I couldn't do it so much because of my kids. Like to have not see my kids five nights out of the week. Monday you're off, Sunday night you're off.
27:08 Speaker 05 You do eight shows a week, you have one night off, one night.
27:11 Alec Baldwin? Now, you didn't study. You did not have a professional training. And would you recommend people get some of that training somehow? Or you don't think it's necessary?
27:19 Speaker 05 Oh, no, I definitely think you, I just, I wasn't able to find the people to, I mean, you know, Joan Later, who's my singing teacher, she got me through more than.
27:28 Alec Baldwin? The Joan Later.
27:28 Speaker 05 The great Dame Joan. She got me through a lot of things in my early years as, you know, because she, and she talks and she's, she's an actor's, you know, teacher. She loves that. But no, I know, I think you do whatever you need to do to feel like you know what you're doing on a stage, you know? I just, I learned from watching great actors. I thought, what is, what are they doing or not doing? And Brian Bedford was one of them in Stratford. When I saw him in a play, I learned so much from watching him and working with him too. And that's how I just figured it out.
28:06 Alec Baldwin? I tell people, learn to sing. I said, when you're young, when you're training, I said, go and take as much voice as you can, movement. I said, you're cutting yourself off from half the business.
28:15 Speaker 05 Right.
28:16 Alec Baldwin? And I'll never forget Boyd Gaines, who I did a movie with, he had a small part in the movie I did, and I love Boyd Gaines.
28:21 Speaker 05 I do too.
28:21 Alec Baldwin? And when he did Contact, Ed Lincoln Center, I could be a member. And I go see him, I'm sitting there going, oh my God, look at this guy.
28:29 Speaker 05 Yeah.
28:29 Alec Baldwin? This guy who's always been a wonderful stage. Actor and worked in film and television, but like this is like his defining moment.
28:35 Speaker 05 Yeah.
28:36 Alec Baldwin? To play that guy who is seeking some release and some freedom in his life by dancing.
28:41 Speaker 05 Yeah.
28:41 Alec Baldwin? You know, and enjoying himself.
28:43 Speaker 05 Yeah.
28:43 Alec Baldwin? I watched Boyd Gaines in Contact. I almost died. I thought, look at him. And I've always said to people, write me a musical. Where I'm a person who learns to sing, who can't sing.
28:53 Speaker 05 Yeah.
28:53 Alec Baldwin? Maury Esten gets me at a party.
28:55 Speaker 05 Yeah.
28:55 Alec Baldwin? Mr. Baldwin, do you sing? And I said, no, I don't sing. I said, it's, I'd go to prison if I sang. And he says, Mr. Baldwin, nonsense. He says, I said to Dustin Hoffman, he said the same thing to me and I said, sing Yankee Doodle Dandy in the style of Jimmy Durante. And Hoffman goes, I'm a Yankee Doodle. Then he goes, sing the Star Spangled Banner in the voice of Louis Armstrong. Oh, see, can you see? And he goes, you see, you're on key. You can sing when you pretend to be somebody else.
29:25 Speaker 05 That's perfect.
29:26 Alec Baldwin? He says, when you're singing, you must pretend you're somebody else. You don't sing in your own voice. Your own voice is terrible.
29:32 Speaker 05 I'm gonna do that when I get home today. See if I can hit those notes. Oh my God, it's a great idea. I'll just pretend I'm someone else.
29:39 Alec Baldwin? But this idea of me wanting to sing, I have the soul of a singer. It's the same with you do impersonations. I'm not that good at that either. But the point is, whatever ear you have for that, that's the same music in impersonation, sound.
29:51 Speaker 05 Yeah.
29:52 Alec Baldwin? It's all the sound in your skull. And I look at people, I say, learn how to sing.
29:57 Speaker 05 Yeah, it's invaluable. And it also opens areas of your body and your head. And I think it's really healthy. I think it's really healthy to sing.
30:05 Alec Baldwin? Here's the power of that kind of performance, of clear, unfettered, unvarnished piece of your soul coming out. You know what the first show I saw on Broadway was? Shenandoah with John Cullen.
30:16 Speaker 05 Oh, wow. I never, I never.
30:18 Alec Baldwin? I was a kid.
30:19 Speaker 05 Wow.
30:19 Alec Baldwin? I'm going on a school trip and John Cullen goes, this here land is Anderson land. By the sweat of my brow. And he's singing the song and I'm going, oh my God, look at this fucking guy. He's standing in front of you. He's so many feet away from you and he's doing that in front of you and laying himself bare and putting himself out there. And I was like fifteen or sixteen years old and I was like, wow, that looks hard. It looks like work. Like you have to learn how to do something. And it wasn't until years later that I started to say to myself, acting is hard to do it well.
30:49 Speaker 05 Yes, that's what I was whining about a few minutes ago. It's harder than you think. Right. And you have to work harder than you think. I saw Len Carreyu in A Little Night Music. Before I worked with him, before I knew him, I was with my mom. Glynnis Johns was... That was my first Sondheim live show that I'd ever seen. I was young. And Len Carreyu blew my socks off. Because that guy, it was a singer who, everything that he sang was coming from an organic place. And you were... It was completely compelling. And he's still, you know, he's... I still, I worship him. I worship him.
31:33 Alec Baldwin? Victor Garber. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend. And be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeart Radio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Victor Garber details the changes he's seen over his time in show business, and how increasingly difficult it is to find good material.
32:05 Speaker 01 Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Legend. So you're helping Will.i.am write hooks. What made "Ordinary People" become the one song from those sound checks you knew you had to make your own?
32:32 Alec Baldwin? I was just writing for the Black Eyed Peas. I wasn't expecting to write something for myself in that session. But I wrote the hook for "Ordinary People." And I recorded a demo, and I'm like, I would rather keep "Ordinary People" for myself. This station in Chicago, WGCI, they start playing it before we're promoting it. The song spoke for itself. It became the defining song for my first album. I knew it was special, but you never know how special it's going to be and how much impact it's going to have.
32:58 Speaker 03 And you never believe that you're going to actually change people's lives with a song. Experience before the moment. A Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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34:23 Alec Baldwin? I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Victor Garber has been a working actor for over 50 years. Of course, over that period of time, the way entertainment is consumed has changed dramatically. In the era of streaming, there is an endless amount of what networks simply refer to as content. I wanted to know if he found compelling projects more difficult to come by these days.
34:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, listen, I haven't, I haven't done anything for, you know, I was doing a series in Canada for four years. It was actually quite well-written and it was, you know, you know, but it was a weekly show. But I do have to say, we've been watching Say Nothing, which is, I highly-
35:07 Alec Baldwin? The IRA one?
35:08 Speaker 05 Yeah, it's, it's-
35:09 Alec Baldwin? I've heard a lot of people say that, yes.
35:11 Speaker 05 You know, you have to have subtitles on because they talk so fast.
35:13 Alec Baldwin? Yeah.
35:14 Speaker 05 And it's really hard to follow-
35:14 Alec Baldwin? I have subtitles on everything now.
35:16 Speaker 05 I do too.
35:16 Alec Baldwin? Yeah.
35:17 Speaker 05 It's, it's, Say Nothing is, I think, one of the best things I've seen on TV in-
35:20 Alec Baldwin? Did you see Disclaimer?
35:22 Speaker 05 No.
35:22 Alec Baldwin? I liked it.
35:23 Speaker 05 Who's that? Who's doing that?
35:24 Alec Baldwin? Kevin Kline.
35:25 Speaker 05 Oh, Kevin, oh, I-
35:26 Alec Baldwin? Kevin's back on TV.
35:26 Speaker 05 No, I watched the first-
35:27 Alec Baldwin? Back on the screen, yeah.
35:29 Speaker 05 And, and he was great. Yeah, I know, I, I meant, yes, I want to watch that.
35:32 Alec Baldwin? Yeah. Yeah, I remember, we were really wonderful. Sasha Baron Cohen.
35:36 Speaker 05 Yes.
35:36 Alec Baldwin? Really great cast.
35:37 Speaker 05 Is that a-
35:37 Alec Baldwin? I'm forgetting her name, Leslie Nandville.
35:39 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:40 Alec Baldwin? And I'm one of those people who, I mean, I'm not, I'm not ashamed to admit this, I mean, I was crying when The Crown was over.
35:46 Speaker 05 Oh, I loved it.
35:47 Alec Baldwin? I love, I could, I could go to watch The Crown for the next 10 years.
35:49 Speaker 05 I know.
35:49 Alec Baldwin? I wanted, I wanted 15 seasons of The Crown.
35:52 Speaker 05 I know, I know.
35:52 Alec Baldwin? I really did.
35:53 Speaker 05 I know.
35:53 Alec Baldwin? All right, my last question for you is, when you have an evening, I mean, that doesn't involve friends and the socializing with all of your echelon of friends and this business you've been, you've conquered so well and so beautifully over the years, what's entertainment for you? Are you like ballet, theater, symphony, music concerts, or you don't really, it's mostly theater and film?
36:14 Speaker 05 Yeah, we have a great movie theater in Sag Harbor and we go watch movies there. It's a beautiful theater.
36:20 Alec Baldwin? Sure it is, yeah.
36:21 Speaker 05 And they've renovated, Eric Fishel and April Goranek-
36:24 Alec Baldwin? April Goranek.
36:24 Speaker 05 They've saved our town.
36:26 Alec Baldwin? Yeah.
36:26 Speaker 05 So, we do go to the movies and we do try to watch a lot of, you know, Our Friends on, in shows, you know, we had, which we, we love to watch Our Friends. We went to see The Hills of California the other day.
36:38 Alec Baldwin? How was that?
36:38 Speaker 05 I think it's one of the better plays I've ever seen. I think it's fantastic. I highly recommend it. Because everyone, now and then, you know, you, you see something and you think, oh, this is why I wanted to be in this business, you know, and, and, and the acting in it and the, and the writing, it's, it's, you know, Sam Mendes directed it and it's, the acting is, Jes Butterworth, you know, is arguably one of the best writers ever-
37:00 Alec Baldwin? Who's the cast?
37:01 Speaker 05 All Irish people that I didn't know, but the one, the woman who is the lead is married to him and her name. And she's on Say Nothing and she's devastating. She's, and she's, it's really beautiful play. Um, very, very disturbing and in the way you want to be affected in the theater. So I recommend that one.
37:21 Alec Baldwin? Well, you say that you don't want to do a play again. And I want to say to you, I want to inform you right now that that decision might not be left to you alone, actually.
37:30 Speaker 05 Wow.
37:30 Alec Baldwin? You may, we may pass a law in Congress if you don't get up there and do it.
37:35 Speaker 05 Or if I don't get a citizenship.
37:37 Alec Baldwin? If you don't get, fine. You had an early career with a folk band?
37:41 Speaker 05 Oh.
37:42 Alec Baldwin? 1960s folk band?
37:44 Speaker 05 Oh, yes, we were on the, the Sugar Shop is what you're referring to.
37:47 Alec Baldwin? Is that what it's called?
37:48 Speaker 05 The Sugar Shop, yes. S H O P P E.
37:51 Alec Baldwin? E, of course, yes.
37:52 Speaker 05 Don't forget the E.
37:52 Alec Baldwin? Canadian.
37:53 Speaker 05 A double P E. We were a Canadian group that became successful for singing a Canadian song for the Centennial. And it was like a Mamas and Papas version because we were obsessed with the Mamas and Papas, my friend Peter and I. And we started this group and he was really talented at arranging. And we had really good singers, me and two women and Peter play the piano and, and do the arrangements. And we signed a deal with Capitol Records. I mean, I don't know how it happened. We were like Fifth Dimension. We were, that's what we were, we were. And we actually recorded Lauren Nero's Save the Country. And it was on the flip side of a, of a single. And the Fifth Dimension copied our version and they got a hit with Save the Country.
38:36 Alec Baldwin? Who wrote the songs for Sugar Shop?
38:38 Speaker 05 Well, the Sugar Shop, we, we paid for it. We, we.
38:41 Alec Baldwin? You hired people to write songs?
38:42 Speaker 05 Lauren Nero, who people don't realize was one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And we knew her and we were friends with her and we recorded Save the Country. And it was on the flip side of a song called Poor Papa, which was a 1920s song that we, and, and that got, was on the easy listening charts.
39:00 Speaker 06 Now the Sugar Shop sing Save the Country.
39:04 Speaker 05 That's us.
39:05 Speaker 06 Save the country.
39:10 Alec Baldwin? You're like Eric Carmen.
39:12 Speaker 05 Oh, don't say that.
39:13 Alec Baldwin? You're like the hair, the hair, your hair.
39:16 Speaker 05 I was like nineteen.
39:17 Alec Baldwin? Like the breaking wave on the ocean, your hair. With the foam in it. And you're just so sexy. And look at you're wearing that. You look like you're in Dukes of Hazzard.
39:26 Speaker 05 I went to the East Village and got a chain link vest. And God only knows whatever happened to that.
39:33 Alec Baldwin? I have loved you as a performer. And you're always the most gracious person in the world.
39:37 Speaker 05 You have always been so kind to me, Alec. I remember when we started, we actually tested for a pilot. The same pilot in L.A. And I remember you walked through the room and you were so nice. And I thought, boy, that is the handsomest man I've ever seen. I did. I remember distinctly. And neither of us got the role. But I remember you were always so kind to me. So I'm grateful for that.
40:04 Alec Baldwin? My love to you.
40:04 Speaker 05 Love to you.
40:07 Alec Baldwin? Actor and performer Victor Garber. I'll leave you with a little more of the Sugar Shop performing Save the Country live on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1969. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
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42:39 Speaker 02 Hello?
42:40 Alec Baldwin? Hey, it's me, your wallet.
42:42 Speaker 02 Oh, hey.
42:43 Alec Baldwin? I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?
42:46 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
42:47 Alec Baldwin? Really?
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42:50 Alec Baldwin? Wait, you mean low prices?
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42:53 Alec Baldwin? Oh, you do care.
42:55 Speaker 02 Obviously.
42:56 Alec Baldwin? Okay, I feel better.
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43:15 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
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