Meta’s Trump Calculus + Regime Change at Netflix

What does Donald Trump’s reinstatement on Facebook and Instagram mean for our politics and platforms? Then, Netflix in its post-Reed era. Plus: How the Bored Ape Yacht Club went from being the Disney of Web3 to handing out sewer passes for their new video game.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  AI spend is growing fast, but most businesses still can't see exactly where that money is going. Ramp gives businesses visibility and control across AI providers with real-time guardrails by team and model, helping ensure spend goes to the highest ROI areas. Stop guessing where your AI spend is going. Get started with Ramp. And if you're new to Ramp, you can get $250 off at ramp.com/hardfork. Go to ramp.com/hardfork. Ramp.com/hardfork.

• 0:32Kevin Roose?

  All right, let's, let's just do the intro, get it out of the way.

• 0:35Casey Newton?

  Do it.

• 0:36Kevin Roose?

  I'm Kevin Roos, I'm a tech columnist at The New York Times.

• 0:38Casey Newton?

  I'm Casey Newton from Platformer.

• 0:39Kevin Roose?

  And you're listening to Hard Fork.

• 0:44Casey Newton?

  Oh, no. What, where did you get that?

• 0:47Kevin Roose?

  I finally got around to programming our soundboard here with this, with a series of sound effects. So for example, if you tell one of your patented Casey jokes, I can just go.

• 1:04Casey Newton?

  That is so patronizing.

• 1:06Kevin Roose?

  Or if we're talking about something sad, I can go.

• 1:14Casey Newton?

  How has our show, like becoming a 1920s vaudeville act?

• 1:18Kevin Roose?

  Well, you could, the fun thing about this one is you can make it any sound you want.

• 1:21Casey Newton?

  Okay.

• 1:22Kevin Roose?

  So, you know, when we're talking about some VR thing, I can just go. The metaverse.

• 1:30Kevin Roose?

  Or.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  I mean, look, I've had a bad month.

• 1:35Casey Newton?

  SPF, an iconic SPF quote.

• 1:38Kevin Roose?

  Oh, Casey, I'm, I'm so glad you're here. I just feel like giving you a little round of applause.

• 1:46Casey Newton?

  That, the, the power imbalance of you being able to press the buttons and me not being able to press the buttons is really starting to.

• 1:53Kevin Roose?

  I really love it. I'm really having a great day. I'm, I'm the opposite of.

• 1:57Speaker 03

  I mean, look, I've had a bad month.

• 1:59Kevin Roose?

  I'm having a great day.

• 2:01Casey Newton?

  This has like become a Twitch stream from hell.

• 2:14Kevin Roose?

  Okay, Casey, tell the people what's on the show today.

• 2:18Casey Newton?

  This week on the show, what does Donald Trump being allowed back onto Facebook and Instagram mean for the platforms and for our politics, regime change at Netflix, and a video game from the Bored Ape Yacht Club?

• 2:45Kevin Roose?

  All right, Casey, we have got big news this week. After two years, Meta has decided to reverse its bans on Donald Trump. He will be allowed back on Facebook and Instagram, where he's been banned since the January 6 riots.

• 3:00Casey Newton?

  It's crazy they would do that without even asking us what we thought they should do.

• 3:03Kevin Roose?

  You didn't get the call?

• 3:04Casey Newton?

  No, I've been waiting.

• 3:05Kevin Roose?

  Well, you know, next time, maybe we'll get him. So Meta has faced a lot of pressure from both sides, Democrats and Republicans, over this issue since the bans in January of 2021. But on Wednesday, the company announced that it had decided to reverse the bans because it had determined that the risk to public safety had, quote, "sufficiently receded." The company also added that it would add more guardrails in order to prevent him from breaking its rules in the future. Nick Clegg, Meta's head of global affairs, said in a statement that, quote, "The public should be able to hear what their politicians are saying, the good, the bad, and the ugly, so that they can make informed choices at the ballot box.

• 3:48Kevin Roose?

  But that does not mean there are no limits to what people can say on our platform." So this news dropped on Wednesday afternoon, and people started reacting all over the place, including Donald Trump himself, who said in a post on Truth Social, quote, "Facebook, which has lost billions of dollars in value since deplatforming your favorite president, me, has just announced that they are reinstating my account. Such a thing should never again happen to a sitting president or anybody else who is not deserving of retribution. Thank you to Truth Social for doing such an incredible job. Your growth is outstanding and future unlimited."

• 4:29Casey Newton?

  Yeah, so I love that he says that this should never happen to anyone ever again unless they deserve it.

• 4:35Kevin Roose?

  Right. So Casey, do we think that he will actually come back to Facebook and Instagram? I mean, Twitter, under Elon Musk, reinstated Donald Trump's account, but he has not come back to post on the platform. He's exclusively posting on Truth Social, where he is contractually obligated to put new posts six hours before they appear anywhere else. So do you think he's actually going to use his Facebook and Instagram accounts again, or are they just going to sit idle like his Twitter account is?

• 5:02Casey Newton?

  Well, so earlier this week, Rolling Stone reported that Trump is looking to get out of his Truth Social deal, does not want to renew, and has been asking people around him what his first tweet should be when he goes back to the platform. So I think, you know, look, at the end of the day, he's running for president again. He knows that Twitter was an enormous source of power for him in the run-up to both the 2016 and 2020 elections, and he would just be foolish not to use it. The same is sort of true of Facebook, though, for slightly different reasons. I think Twitter was how he controlled the news cycle, and Facebook was a fundraising engine. And so I think the real value to him of being back on Facebook is going to be to go reach out to all of those Trump voters and start getting them to open up their wallets again.

• 5:43Kevin Roose?

  Totally. I mean, that was the secret weapon that Trump had in Facebook. That was where his team would go on and run all of these targeted ads to raise small-dollar donations. And so I think this is actually quite a big deal for the 2024 election, not, as you said, because Facebook is where he spends all of his time, or Instagram. I don't see him doing a lot of reels in his future. But I do think that Facebook, for all of the sort of decline that it's been in, is still a really powerful fundraising tool. And that's where Trump really built his war chest, was through Facebook marketing. And so it's not just that his accounts are coming back, it's that he's going to be able to run all of those ads again and use that to raise money for his 2024 campaign. I actually

• 6:28Kevin Roose?

  think this is a very meaningful shift in the 2024 campaign.

• 6:32Casey Newton?

  It is, but it totally depends on how Trump and his team wind up using this account. If you look at how Trump used his Facebook account historically, you're right, he did post his ads there, but he also cross-posted all of his tweets. Now, if you assume that Trump is going to start tweeting again, and that his tweets look like his Truth Social posts, presumably all of those posts are going to be allowed to be up on Twitter, because I think Elon Musk has made very clear that, you know, for the most part, you can say almost anything that you want to, and, you know, he's not going to have his content moderators intervene. But if you look at those same Truth Social posts, and you try to hold them to Facebook's community standards, actually, many of them are violating. So I think, you know, if you're running the Trump campaign, and you have somehow managed

• 7:14Casey Newton?

  to get any sway over him, I think what you say to him is like, "Go tweet whatever you want, but leave the running of the Facebook page to us, and we are just going to strip mine it for as much, like, boomer money as we can."

• 7:25Kevin Roose?

  Right. We're going to use Twitter for messaging and Facebook for fundraising. I mean, I think you're right. I don't actually go to Truth Social. I frankly can count on one hand the number of times I've ever been to that website.

• 7:37Casey Newton?

  Can I tell you a post I did on Truth Social that got a lot of blowback?

• 7:40Kevin Roose?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Casey Newton?

  I wrote, "Vaccines are safe and effective." And, oh, boy, they ratioed the hell out of me over there.

• 7:46Kevin Roose?

  Were you the main character of Truth Social for a day?

• 7:48Casey Newton?

  I think I was.

• 7:51Kevin Roose?

  So, just in the past week on Truth Social, Donald Trump has repeatedly claimed that the 2020 election was rigged and stolen. He's been attacking Elaine Chao, Mitch McConnell's wife, with a series of racist names. He has called the FBI the Gestapo, and he has advocated for reporters to be rounded up and jailed. So, you know, any of those types of posts could theoretically get him banned again from Facebook. Meta said in a blog post that Donald Trump is going to be subject to the same community standards as any other Facebook or Instagram user, but that in light of his violations,

• 8:32Kevin Roose?

  they're also going to subject him to heightened rules, him and other public figures whose accounts have been suspended and then reinstated. So, they're saying that the new rule is that if he posts further violating content, that content will be removed, and Donald Trump will be suspended for between one month and two years, depending on the severity of the violation. This looks like a new rule. I have not seen this before.

• 8:54Casey Newton?

  Yeah, I think that that's right. And you know, Facebook did say in the run up to this that if they were to bring Trump back, they would introduce a series of escalating penalties, right? You know, I think it's difficult to look at Trump's career over the past like eight years and think that he is going to be, you know, moderating any of his behavior. But it makes sense that as a social network that is trying to apply one set of consistent rules, you would at least say, well, we're going to let him try. You know, but I would also say they could have made another choice, right? When you're running a social platform, it is up to the people running it to decide, well, who do you want to be here? What do you want them to say? And also like, what is it within your business interest to let people say?

• 9:36Casey Newton?

  One of the stories we've talked about here a lot over the past few months is how when Elon Musk started letting all of the far right actors back onto the platform, a very important thing that happened was that they started to lose a huge amount of their advertising revenue. And I will just be very interested to see what are the knock on effects of letting Trump come back onto the platform? If indeed, he does start posting there, the kinds of things that he's currently posting on True Social.

• 10:00Kevin Roose?

  So if it's not because they, you know, think this is going to make them money, and it's not because they have some high minded commitment to free expression, why did Meta do this?

• 10:10Casey Newton?

  I think they thought it was in their long term best interest to give him a second chance. I think that they were so pilloried on the right for removing the president. And they wanted to be able to say to conservative regulators around the world, "Look, we have acted in good faith here. We laid out what the rules were, and they may not have been clear before, you know, we didn't have a rule in 2020 that said if you try to overthrow the government, you'll be banned from Facebook, but kind of now we do. And so we're going to give him a little bit of room to run." Again, you can look at the Trump post on True Social and imagine that he's probably not going to last too long on Facebook. Like, I do think that unlike Twitter, Facebook is going to enforce its rules.

• 10:53Casey Newton?

  Maybe not as quickly as you'd want them to, maybe not in every single case, but I do think that Facebook is going to act here. That does arguably, though, create a really difficult PR headache, right? Because you can already think of all the people laughing and saying, "Well, who could have seen this coming?" "Oh, well, you're telling me that Trump violated your policies again." And it does kind of leave Facebook with its pants down again. But, you know, ultimately, I think if you want to be generous to Facebook, you would say that they are making a principled decision in the face of likely getting egg on their face.

• 11:23Kevin Roose?

  You wrote a couple of weeks ago a newsletter about the possibility that Meta was going to end Donald Trump's suspension. And you talked about how these protests in Brazil over the Brazilian election might influence their decision. So explain what you wrote and if you're sort of standing by that in the face of this news.

• 11:44Casey Newton?

  Yeah, so on January 8th, there was a kind of copycat January 6th in Brazil, where supporters of former President Bolsonaro showed up to make clear their displeasure with the fact that their guy had left office. And in Brazil, there is far more aggressive censorship than you would find in the United States. And the reason I thought all of this was interesting is that here in a country where you had much stronger censorship and where people were being deplatformed in the run-up to the transfer of power, you have these riots anyway. And I think it's important because there is this belief that is unstated, but I believe present, in a lot of coverage of these platforms, Facebook and Twitter in particular, which

• 12:28Casey Newton?

  is that if they would only make the right content moderation decisions, if they would only aggressively eliminate every post that contained hate speech or misinformation, our society would come together again, we would be unified, and we would stop seeing this kind of political violence. And yet, here in Brazil, you have this an example of a country that had taken even more aggressive steps to stop these kind of anti-government agitators than the United States had, and you had the riot anyway. Now, that's not a case for nihilism. It's not to say that platforms shouldn't act. I think there are a lot of good reasons to act. I think you could have made a good case to keep Trump off Facebook forever. But I think we should at least manage our expectations around what we can do with tech policy.

• 13:11Casey Newton?

  And one thing I think you cannot do with tech policy is end fascism.

• 13:14Kevin Roose?

  Hmm. Uh huh. So I think there's a couple interesting next questions here. One is, what happens when he inevitably violates some rule, right? But I think there's also an interesting question here around how this changes the overall political conversation on Facebook. It's much harder to find political content on Facebook and Instagram now than it was even just a couple of years ago. So in this sort of new environment, I just don't know that he's going to be able to break through in some of the ways that he was when he was on the platform the last time.

• 13:47Casey Newton?

  It's such an interesting question because as somebody who has covered Facebook pretty obsessively for a lot of years now, the Facebook as a product right now, it does not feel like it has a heartbeat the way that it did before. And I'm not saying that nobody goes there. Obviously, it's still a massive platform, but at the same time, it does not feel like it was driving the conversation the way that it was in 2016. But that could cut a couple of ways, right? Because it is possible that you put Trump back on there and it turns out that a lot of the people that are still spending a lot of time on Facebook like love seeing him there, and it kind of becomes a phenomenon on Facebook. So I really don't know how this is going to go on Facebook itself, assuming that he is there and is able to continue to post and kind of does that for a long period of time.

• 14:29Casey Newton?

  But I suspect that either way, we are going to learn a lot about what Facebook means in 2023 from the fact that Trump is allowed back on there.

• 14:38Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I also think there's this question of sort of what relationship Trump will have if he does come back to these platforms with kind of the right wing media ecosystem that emerged to fill the vacuum that was created when he was kicked off these platforms. I mean, Facebook is still a big platform for people like Ben Shapiro and Dan Bongino have millions of followers there who are sort of Trump aligned in some ways, but not necessarily the man himself.

• 15:08Casey Newton?

  So let me ask you that because I'm going to ask you a question that I do not know the answer to, which is, how is Ron DeSantis using Facebook and Instagram? Does he have a following there? Is he driving conversations on either of those platforms? Is he like raising lots of money? I have no idea.

• 15:18Kevin Roose?

  I have zero clue. Let's go look up Ron DeSantis on Facebook.

• 15:22Casey Newton?

  Let's see if there's a shirtless Ron DeSelfie.

• 15:25Kevin Roose?

  A Ron DeSelfie.

• 15:27Casey Newton?

  Let's see if there's a shirtless Ron DeSantis selfie on Instagram.

• 15:32Kevin Roose?

  Honored to receive the gold medal from the Union League of Philadelphia. Yeah, it's just, I mean, it's just, this is, this is boring stuff. This is like standard glossy marketing. Not a lot of hot takes coming out of the Ron DeSantis Facebook account. What about Instagram? I mean, that seems to be where the heartbeat of Meta is these days and where people are still going, including younger people. So do you think he's gonna try his hand at some, some reels or some stories?

• 16:00Casey Newton?

  Instagram, I think to its credit, feels like a bad place to discuss politics. You know, I don't want to say there was no politics on Instagram. And yet I'm struggling to think of a national political story in which Instagram seemed like it was the point of origin.

• 16:15Kevin Roose?

  Totally. I mean, I think that's sort of my other big question mark around all this is like, does it matter? I mean, has the social media ecosystem changed so much in the last two years? You know, that what might have seemed like a big deal in 2021 just doesn't really matter that much in 2023. I mean, we've seen the rise of TikTok and we've talked on this very podcast about how the era of sort of big consolidated social media may be ending. So in that sense, like, maybe it's not that big a deal that he's gonna be on Facebook and Instagram, even though he's still got millions of followers there.

• 16:51Casey Newton?

  Well, and if 2024 turns out to be the TikTok election, guess who doesn't have an account there?

• 16:55Kevin Roose?

  He doesn't have a TikTok account?

• 16:56Casey Newton?

  No, and think about it. The Republicans are like kind of fenced in in that respect, right? Because they think that TikTok should be banned. And so I'm very curious to see to what extent they're gonna be willing to let surrogates go speak to that audience, you know, if they decide that it's important to their plans. I guess it's also true that Joe Biden doesn't have a TikTok. So those might be reasons.

• 17:16Kevin Roose?

  That we know about.

• 17:16Casey Newton?

  That we know about.

• 17:17Kevin Roose?

  He might have an alt.

• 17:18Casey Newton?

  Do you know Joe Biden's secret TikTok account? Get in touch.

• 17:21Kevin Roose?

  But Trump is not banned from TikTok, right? He just hasn't set up an account. Is he still banned from YouTube?

• 17:27Casey Newton?

  Yes. And so interestingly, YouTube, like Facebook, suspended Trump and said, we will reassess this continuously and when we believe that the risk to public Safety receipts, we will consider restoring his account. Now, on YouTube, Trump's account is still up. He's just not allowed to post a new video to it. It's very easy for me to imagine in the coming weeks, now that Facebook has taken all of the heat for doing this, YouTube is going to say, oh, you know what? We're actually going to let him post again, too.

• 17:54Kevin Roose?

  And is that the last one? Will he then be back on every platform that he was banned from?

• 17:58Casey Newton?

  Those are the big three. But I wanted to talk about this idea of the danger to the public having receded. Earlier this month, Naomi Nix at The Washington Post wrote a story about a former Georgia election worker named Ruby Freeman. And multiple times, Trump accused her of falsifying ballots in the 2020 election. And, you know, her lawyers said repeatedly, like, you know, these claims have never been substantiated. And, you know, there's never been any substantiation of claims of widespread voter fraud in that election. But I bring it up because she was forced from her home. She faced so many waves of harassment that she had to flee.

• 18:40Casey Newton?

  And as much as we like to joke about the fact that no one is on Truth Social, I think it's important to note that in this case, a real person faced wave after wave of death threats because of Trump using the platform the way he did. So if you are YouTube and you are gauging the danger to the public of allowing Trump back onto your platform, I hope you talk to Ruby Freeman. And I hope you talk to the other people who have experienced similar waves of harassment.

• 19:09Kevin Roose?

  That's a great point. I think, obviously, the temperature of the overall political debate has come down. But it's not a bet that I would make that 2024 will be a calmer year. I think we almost certainly will see more allegations of voter fraud. You know, I think if being suspended did not get Trump to change his ways and start posting in a more responsible, less offensive way, I don't think the threat of a temporary, you know, one or two month ban is going to do it either.

• 19:38Casey Newton?

  Yeah, I think you're right.

• 19:40Kevin Roose?

  This is an oddball scenario, but is Trump now allowed in the metaverse? Is he going to be appearing in Horizon Worlds to hold speeches?

• 19:53Casey Newton?

  Just like.

• 19:57Kevin Roose?

  A legless Donald Trump just wandering the empty streets of Horizon World. Selling commemorative coins.

• 20:04Casey Newton?

  I feel like I just had a stroke, just like visualizing that.

• 20:09Casey Newton?

  But yeah, he'll, he'll be allowed in the metaverse. And, you know, if you see him there, you know, strike up a conversation.

• 20:17Kevin Roose?

  If you see Donald Trump wandering around the metaverse, please email us. Hardfork at nytimes.com.

• 20:31Kevin Roose?

  When we come back, we're going to tackle one of the most pressing issues facing America, which is that Casey is having trouble finding something to watch on Netflix.

• 20:40Casey Newton?

  I'm not alone, okay? There are millions of us.

• 20:59Speaker 04

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• 21:33Speaker 00

  AI spend is growing fast, but most businesses still can't see exactly where that money is going. Ramp gives businesses visibility and control across AI providers with real time guardrails by team and model, helping ensure spend goes to the highest ROI areas. Stop guessing where your AI spend is going. Get started with Ramp. And if you're new to Ramp, you can get $250 off at ramp.com/hardfork. Go to ramp.com/hardfork. Ramp.com/hardfork.

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• 22:39Casey Newton?

  So Kevin, last night I had my usual experience watching Netflix. Can I tell you about this?

• 22:44Kevin Roose?

  No.

• 22:45Casey Newton?

  Okay, so basically what happens is you open up the Netflix app on your TV, and then you look at the thumbnails, and then they will sort of autoplay, you know, 15, 20 seconds, and you say, meh, this seems fine. And then you skip to like the next sort of carousel of thumbnails below, and it's just the same shows presented in a different order, you know? It's like, yeah, what's hot? And then featured, and then for you. It's just all of the same shows. And so, you know, 20 minutes went by, and I thought, I think I'm just gonna go read a book. Has this happened to you?

• 23:13Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, all the time. I mean, I am notoriously indecisive, to the point that like my spouse will not let me hold the remote and go surfing through Netflix, which I'm gonna blame on their content library and not my fear of commitment.

• 23:27Casey Newton?

  Well, and look, here's the thing. There was a time when opening up Netflix was an event, and I felt like I had a stack of shows that I just didn't have enough time to get through, right? Going all the way back to the days of Orange is the New Black, leading up to the release of the first Squid Game, something like that. Lately, it has not felt that way. And as I read the headlines, I have begun to have some concerns for Netflix, which was this pioneer in the streaming movement, and now sort of seems like it's back on its heels. They replaced their CEO, and they seem like they might be in a little trouble. So I want to know what is happening here. And to do that, I wanted to talk to Lucas Shaw. He's a reporter at Bloomberg. He writes a great newsletter called Screen Time.

• 24:08Casey Newton?

  And whenever I want to understand anything that is happening in streaming, I read Lucas, and we actually have Lucas here right now. Lucas, thank you for coming to Hard Fork.

• 24:18Speaker 06

  Thank you for having me. And I must be the only person who doesn't have that experience or that feeling that there's nothing to watch. I think it's because I'm too close to the industry where I know that there are like three new shows coming out every single day. And so I have a list of about 50 shows that I have not watched.

• 24:36Casey Newton?

  So does that mean that you have the sense that Netflix, at least from a content perspective, is kind of as good as it's ever been? And then if you had enough time, you would be able to sort of fill your days with really good stuff?

• 24:47Speaker 06

  Well, so I should clarify that that doesn't just apply to Netflix shows, right? That's across the industry. But I do think that the sense that the quality of the programming on Netflix has gone way down is a little bit of a misconception. Now, there's obviously some truth to it, because when Netflix first started, it basically got to license everything from everyone, right? So if you can offer the entire entertainment business's output on one service, it's pretty great. But it's gone through this transition, right? Where it started off mostly speaking to the HBO audience, if you will, right? Like, people who live on the coasts, people who are of a certain means, they have a certain kind of sensibility, and they want to watch Orange is the New Black.

• 25:26Casey Newton?

  Right.

• 25:27Speaker 06

  It's now more like a broadcast network, or if you talk to the executives at the company, it's trying to replicate like the whole cable bundle. And I have friends who are, you know, well-educated, smart people, like highbrow programming, but they also love trashy reality. And guess what? Netflix can offer you both of those things. It doesn't have as many of the highbrow shows as it used to, no question. But it's got a lot of different things people want.

• 25:50Casey Newton?

  So one of the truisms in the entertainment industry is that content is king. And I wonder how true we think that is right now. Is the winning streaming service the one that has all of the best, most talked about shows? Or have we learned that it's more complicated than that?

• 26:06Speaker 06

  Oh, I guess I'd answer that question with the question, what do you think throughout the last, you know, 10 or 15 or 20 years was the most watched linear TV network?

• 26:17Casey Newton?

  Uh, CBS?

• 26:19Speaker 06

  Correct. Would you say that CBS has the most, you know, critically acclaimed, social media buzzy shows in the world?

• 26:28Casey Newton?

  No, it's The Big Bang Theory. And like, you know, seven different versions of something called NCIS.

• 26:34Speaker 06

  Right. So I, I, quality of course matters somewhat, right? Like HBO's business is predicated on quality, but and HBO is a very, was at least a very profitable business. But the most watched networks are not necessarily those that produce the shows that critics love or that people talk about on social media. They produce the shows that people just like want to put on in the background or watch while they're folding laundry or whatever the hell it is. I don't think Netflix would necessarily like people to describe them that way, but they have a lot of programming that fits that hole too, right? That's what you'd watch on HGTV or what you'd watch on Bravo or anything like that. Netflix just has a bigger audience and most people are not that discriminating.

• 27:15Casey Newton?

  So let's take a step back here and really get into the Netflix business for a minute, right? Because between 2021 and 2022, the company's stock lost roughly two thirds of its value. It has since recovered some of that, but it's also been reporting slower and slower subscriber growth. So Lucas, like, how would you characterize the situation that Netflix is in right now?

• 27:38Speaker 06

  You know, it's at this inflection point or moment of transition for the company where for five to seven years, it just consistently grew like 25 million customers a year. 2020 was sort of the end of that, where the pandemic sets in, anybody who didn't have Netflix but wanted Netflix signs up for it. It posts the best year in company history. Its stock is trading near all time highs. All of a sudden, it's as valuable as Disney. And then in 2021, that all comes crashing down. The growth starts to slow. The executives at first think, well, this is just hangover from the pandemic. We got to work through this. And by the end of 2021, they realize, oh crap, we've entered this new phase. We're not able to grow like we once were. What are we going to do? And that leads to them doing a bunch of things

• 28:23Speaker 06

  that they said they would never do, like introducing advertising and cracking down on password sharing. And it raised on Wall Street's mind, some of the most serious doubts it had had about streaming, right? Because for years at that point, investors had been telling all the biggest entertainment companies, you should do what Netflix is doing because the cable bundle is falling apart. Streaming is the future. You need to do that. Spend as much money as you can. It doesn't matter if you lose it, just stream, stream, stream. And then Netflix slowing down made them go, huh? Maybe some of these companies can't just fix all their problems by building a streaming service.

• 28:55Casey Newton?

  You know, I'm curious, though, some of those break glass in case of emergency measures, like cracking down on password sharing, introducing an ad tier. They sort of went from inconceivable to in the product in what felt like a very short time. Were you taken aback at all by the speed with which the company sort of decided? One, that it was going to do those and two, actually executed?

• 29:18Speaker 06

  The initial decisions were at the time very surprising, but with the benefit now of sort of hindsight, not so much because sort of obvious at a certain point that Netflix would want to introduce advertising. Every great media business, especially in entertainment, has tended to have two revenue streams. You sell subscriptions and you sell advertising. Why not do both? But both advertising and cracking down on password sharing were just things that the executives who lead the company would say again and again, not interested, not interested, not interested. The speed with which they then executed it or rolled it out, I guess, surprised me less just because one of the strengths of Netflix in its time has been it moves very quickly. And it is very focused. And that's one of Reed Hastings' strengths as an executive is he would just decide,

• 30:01Speaker 06

  this is what we need to accomplish and we're going to put all our resources into it. It's not like a lot of these other big tech companies that are trying like 15 different projects at the same time.

• 30:10Kevin Roose?

  I want to just take a beat on the password sharing thing that you mentioned, because this is something that I think a lot of people have questions about. So just.

• 30:17Casey Newton?

  Why, Kevin? Are you borrowing your Netflix password from someone?

• 30:20Kevin Roose?

  No, I actually, I have and pay for my own Netflix account. I do borrow other passwords for other streaming services that will remain unnamed. Shout out to my former colleague, who I will also not name, whose parents HBO Max password I've been using.

• 30:35Casey Newton?

  The number of low level crimes that are being confessed to on the show. But starting soon, I guess, that's going to go away and you'll, these freeloaders will be kicked off and they'll have to buy their own accounts. Is that the idea?

• 30:47Speaker 06

  Yeah. Netflix claims that there are more than 100 million people using their service that don't pay for it and should be. Now, how they determine who is someone who is sort of a just password sharer and an illegal one is, is really unclear to me.

• 31:03Casey Newton?

  Do you think that will lead to those 100 million people buying their own subscriptions? Or will they just stop watching Netflix?

• 31:09Speaker 06

  I, I think what will happen is that over the next several months, maybe into next year, they're going to start sending people reminders, basically saying, is this really your Netflix? I think you should be paying for your own. And at a certain point, if the person doesn't do it, they will get it shut off. And their hope, obviously, is that they can convert all of those people into paying. I think that's pretty unlikely. But if they can even get 20% of them, that's a pretty meaningful number of new subscribers for a company that just posted its worst year of growth in like 11 years.

• 31:43Casey Newton?

  I'd like to see them actually knock on people's doors, like at 3 a.m., you know, just be like, hey, we heard you're sharing your password with your parents. So let's talk about Reed Hastings. He led this company for 25 years. And then this month, he announces that he is stepping down. What did you make of that decision? And what do you think brought it about?

• 32:03Speaker 06

  I was not in the least surprised. You know, you talk to people at the company and it became clear that he had started to pull back a little bit. A couple of years ago, he teased succession by naming Ted Sarandos, who's sort of their, their grand poobah in Hollywood, as his co-CEO. He promoted this guy Greg Peters, who was the chief product officer to chief operating officer. So setting these two up as sort of the clear successors to him. There was a little bit of surprise that he named them co-CEOs. But look, Reed Hastings is 62. He's got a bunch of other interests. He wants to go and do something else. And he picked the time right after they delivered some really good numbers because he obviously couldn't leave last year when the company felt like it was in constant crisis.

• 32:45Casey Newton?

  Also, with these two new CEOs in charge. Anything else we should expect them to change? Besides trying to kind of shore up some of this, what frankly, this seems like low hanging fruit to me. Right? Like turn more of your non subscribers into subscribers. What else do they want to do with this company?

• 32:59Speaker 06

  I would not expect any dramatic changes in the short term because look, their advertising service is brand new. And so they have to take it from something now that's got at most a couple of million users into something that has tens of millions of users and generates billions of dollars. They've never done advertising before, so they're building a whole advertising team in-house using these two executives from Snap, Jeremy Gorman and Peter Naylor. The password sharing thing hasn't even really started yet. They've been testing it in Latin America, so that's a big priority for this year and next year. And then their sort of pie in the sky initiative is gaming. They've been buying up a bunch of gaming studios. I think they released something like 30 to 40 games last year, mostly kind of really like free mobile games

• 33:44Speaker 06

  that don't require a ton of attention. There's been some talk about going into PC gaming. I don't think they're going to try to like make games for your Xbox or anything.

• 33:52Kevin Roose?

  I played a trivia game on Netflix with my family over the holidays. It was delightful.

• 33:56Casey Newton?

  Yeah. Was it actually good?

• 33:57Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, it was fine.

• 33:58Casey Newton?

  Part of me feels like instead of making 40 games last year, like, why not try to make one good one? Like, it just seems like a quality control issue to me, but I don't know.

• 34:05Kevin Roose?

  Wow, what a critic.

• 34:06Speaker 06

  Well, this is, it's sort of the Netflix thing, right? I mean, I think of it in the like the sports documentary space. They have this big success with the Formula One show Drive to Survive. And now they're making a sports documentary set in basically every sport you could ever find. And some of them will be good and some of them won't. But getting back to the quality issue, Netflix always has this thing. It's, you know, you guys know this from reporting on these different tech companies or kind of tech slash media companies. You watch one video on YouTube and it feeds you a million things that are like it, right?

• 34:35Casey Newton?

  Right.

• 34:35Speaker 06

  Netflix has sort of taken that model for entertainment and I'm not sure it totally works, but it seems to be working well enough for them.

• 34:42Casey Newton?

  Yeah. You know, I want to talk about some of the challenges that are facing these other streaming services, right? Because all these pressures that Netflix is under, it is maybe even more true of like a Peacock or a Paramount Plus, some of these other folks. So Lucas, when you sort of zoom out, as somebody who does subscribe to most of these services to watch one show and then I never remember to cancel them, like, what is actually going to become of this sort of wider landscape? And what are you seeing there?

• 35:11Speaker 06

  The anticipation is that there will be a lot of consolidation. I mean, there already has been some in that Disney bought entertainment assets from Fox, Rupert Murdoch, basically kind of cashing out on everything he'd done, built in entertainment. Viacom and CBS, which used to be separate, came back together under Sherry Redstone. But there's an expectation that there will be more because you look, you have a bunch of these smaller companies, let's say like an AMC Networks, that had a brief moment in the sun with Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead and Mad Men. And it's now got a bunch of cable networks that are declining and no real credible alternative on the streaming front. You have companies like Paramount, again, very dependent still on the kind of traditional cable networks, which are in decline.

• 35:55Speaker 06

  They built a streaming service that has, you know, 50 million subscribers or so, but it doesn't make money and it's not quite at the level of competing with the big ones. And so some of those are expected to combine in some way. Comcast, which owns NBC Universal and has Peacock. Peacock, sort of the butt of all jokes in entertainment, because it's the streaming service that it seems like almost nobody watches. But Comcast, as a larger company, is a massive company, biggest internet and TV provider in the country. So there's an assumption that it will want to stay in entertainment or spin out or do something. And that's honestly where Netflix kind of comes back in. A lot of people wonder, will Netflix want to swallow up one of these other companies, merge with, get bought by? Because if it hits a ceiling in streaming, it is a little bit limited in being sort

• 36:39Speaker 06

  of a one business business. Netflix executives for now say that they're not interested in buying a library, which might help with your endless scroll problem. They're not interested in merging or selling. But I think we'll see what happens sort of on the other side of this macroeconomic wonkiness, because nobody wants to sell or merge or do anything when their stock price is in the toilet.

• 37:00Kevin Roose?

  Right. And do you think this consolidation that you're predicting, is that going to result in lower prices for the consumer? Because one thing that I know a lot of people feel is like, you know, I used to pay 120 bucks a month for a cable subscription and then I cut the cord and for a while it was cheaper because I was paying for, you know, cable internet. Plus Netflix and maybe one other service Hulu or something, maybe spending 50 bucks a month. But then you add Peacock, then you add Paramount Plus, then you add Disney Plus, then you add ESPN Plus. If you're a sports fan and all of a sudden you're spending way more on streaming services every month than you would have spent on the old cable bundle. So is this consolidation going to bring that cost down?

• 37:44Kevin Roose?

  Will it be someone who comes along and rebundles a bunch of streaming services and offers it for a cheaper price? Or do you think that the price that I and other people are paying for these services is just going to continue to rise?

• 37:55Speaker 06

  I think it'll keep going up. There's just, there's-

• 37:58Kevin Roose?

  Come on.

• 38:00Casey Newton?

  It's crazy. I mean, like, before you answer that question, it's crazy to me that you could have 50 million subscribers to something and still be losing money. Like, is this, is this business as bad as that fact makes it seem?

• 38:12Speaker 06

  Well, you have to think about how much they're spending on producing original programming, plus licensing from others and from themselves. A lot of these businesses used to be built on a model where they would have a studio and that studio would sell some to the TV networks or streaming services within your own company. But it also made a lot of money selling outside of the company. And a lot of these media companies stopped selling outside because they got burned by Netflix, right? Where they licensed Netflix, all these popular shows, Netflix builds a big business. It makes them look bad. It leads to the downfall of cable, which was their cash cow. And all of a sudden they're going crap, like, maybe we shouldn't be licensing all of our movies that we put in theaters to show on Netflix after that.

• 38:57Speaker 06

  But then, instead of making hundreds of millions of dollars a year, selling that stuff out to Netflix or what used to be HBO, you're paying yourself, so there's no profit in it. And so you need it to get really big to make money from it. And I think we're going to enter this period where you'll see media companies keep sort of the crown jewels for their own services, but will license out more regularly things to other people, which will only make it more confusing to know where things are. As for the, the pricing of it all, we're already seeing the prices go up because these companies are under pressure. So HBO Max just got more expensive when it combines with this- Discovery Plus, it's going to be probably like 20 bucks a month. Netflix has been raising prices for pretty much every 18 months for the last eight or nine years.

• 39:40Speaker 06

  Disney Plus or Disney with its three services, Disney Plus, Hulu, ESPN Plus, just instituted a big price increase. And if there's more consolidation, I would assume they'll say, well, you're getting more than you used to. Like, that's the whole Netflix argument, right? Is that, well, we only raise prices when we deliver more value to our customers.

• 39:57Casey Newton?

  We sort of started this conversation talking about all the challenges that Netflix has. But I wonder if there's a chance that as some of these businesses consolidate, or frankly, maybe even close down, in that world, is Netflix able to once again begin licensing that content at pretty attractive prices in ways that bring in more subscribers and winds up kind of winning in the end? How likely do you think that scenario is?

• 40:21Speaker 06

  Well, it's worth remembering that even though all these other, a lot of these other companies stopped licensing as much, they still license plenty, right? So Abbott Elementary, a very popular show on the ABC TV network you can also watch on Hulu, is produced by Warner Brothers, which is part of Warner Brothers Discovery. The Crown, which is one of Netflix's hit shows, is produced by Sony. There's a bunch of that exchange, but there is an expectation that as these companies need to think more about profits and get a little bit less dogmatic about keeping everything in-house, that there will be titles available on the marketplace and Netflix will continue to be able to both produce their own and license from others.

• 41:02Speaker 06

  I don't think they'll be able to take a popular show that was on Disney Plus and five years later it's available on Netflix. But I do think that some of that more traditional structure of the business will work. And then the other question for Netflix that they have said no to, but is, will there come a point at which they want to buy one of those companies? There are a lot of people who feel like when their stock was trading at like $600 a share, $700 a share, they should have bought a company like Paramount, which has a gorgeous lot in Los Angeles and a very large library. And sure, it has cable networks they don't want, but they could figure out what to do with that.

• 41:35Casey Newton?

  Well, it's a fascinating set of things to think about. I think really my only last question, Lucas, is what you think I should watch on a streaming service tonight?

• 41:43Speaker 06

  Have you seen Bad Sisters?

• 41:45Casey Newton?

  I haven't. This is on Apple TV Plus, right?

• 41:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's good.

• 41:48Casey Newton?

  Yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 06

  Did you, did you ever watch the Amazon show Catastrophe?

• 41:52Casey Newton?

  Yeah, that was great.

• 41:53Speaker 06

  The same creator, Sharon Morgan.

• 41:56Kevin Roose?

  Sharon, I don't have Apple TV Plus. Can I borrow your password, please? All right. Lucas, thank you so much.

• 42:02Casey Newton?

  Thank you, Lucas.

• 42:03Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, thanks for having me.

• 42:10Casey Newton?

  Coming up after the break, Kevin makes me play a video game.

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• 43:59Kevin Roose?

  Casey, I want to take you in a time machine.

• 44:02Casey Newton?

  Strap me in.

• 44:03Kevin Roose?

  All right, we are going back to the year 2022.

• 44:08Casey Newton?

  I remember this.

• 44:08Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, it's a very small time machine. It's not very good.

• 44:12Casey Newton?

  It was the year that the Hard Fork program was created, if I remember right.

• 44:15Kevin Roose?

  Yes, and some other things, too. One of which was the popularization of something called the Bored Ape Yacht Club.

• 44:25Casey Newton?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Kevin Roose?

  Tell me what you remember from the year 2022 about the Bored Ape Yacht Club.

• 44:30Casey Newton?

  I remember people saying that it was the new Disney, that it was the start of a world where you were going to be able to own the intellectual property that served as the foundation of your favorite movies and TV shows. And perhaps more than anything else, I remember the iconic performance of Eminem and Snoop Dogg at the VMAs where somehow the Bored Apes made an extremely weed-heavy appearance.

• 44:54Kevin Roose?

  Right, so the Bored Ape Yacht Club is an NFT club. This was sort of part of the big last crypto boom. And the Bored Apes were these JPGs, these images, these cartoon apes that were turned into NFTs. There were 10,000 of them, and they were sold. And they became a total cultural phenomenon. Celebrities were buying these, like Jimmy Fallon and Steph Curry and Gwyneth Paltrow all had Bored Apes. There's this iconic awkward interview between Paris Hilton and Jimmy Fallon on The Tonight Show where they're discussing their Bored

• 45:35Kevin Roose?

  Apes. And this Bored Ape Yacht Club became kind of a crypto social club. They would host parties. They would come out with lines of merchandise. They raised $450 million venture capital round led by Andreessen Horowitz.

• 45:54Casey Newton?

  Wow.

• 45:55Kevin Roose?

  This Bored Ape named Jenkins the valet actually signed with CAA, the big Hollywood talent agency.

• 46:01Casey Newton?

  Well, the ape didn't sign with CAA.

• 46:03Kevin Roose?

  The ape signed with CAA.

• 46:05Casey Newton?

  How can an ape sign with CAA?

• 46:07Kevin Roose?

  Well, I don't know the mechanics of the Contract. All right. But by the way, these Bored Apes, some of them were selling for millions of dollars apiece. So people were paying through the nose to join this social club. And the idea was that it was going to expand into all kinds of, you know, Bored Ape Restaurants, you know, concerts that you could only attend if you had a Bored Ape in your crypto wallet. Right. But amid all of this hype and frenzy, the crypto market crashed. The whole bottom of the industry fell out. And you might ask, well, what happened to the Bored Ape Yacht Club? I was just about to ask. And the answer that I have for you is no, they did not go away. In fact, they've been making something. It's a video game. That's great, because I love video games.

• 46:50Kevin Roose?

  So I thought we should talk about this game and then actually that you should try to play it, not because I think it's going to be a mind-blowingly awesome video game in its own right, but because I think it's a really good way to kind of assess the state of the high-end NFT media market a year after the crash. So I thought, let's check in. Let's just see what the Bored Ape Yacht Club has been up to and maybe get a sense of what it's like to be a crypto true believer in 2023. All right. So technically, this game is only for people who own Bored Apes or Mutant Apes, which is a spin-off NFT collection.

• 47:33Kevin Roose?

  But I did manage to wrangle access to it. And so I want to show it to you. But first, I want to watch the trailer for this video game together. All right. So let's see.

• 47:50Speaker 08

  A whole lot's happened in the swamp recently. Let's recap. We started down here.

• 47:56Kevin Roose?

  So the Bored Apes live in a swamp. I guess. I'm not sure about their habitat.

• 48:00Speaker 08

  And a whole bunch of other really cool stuff took place in between then and now, which all leads us to the trial of Jimmy the Monkey.

• 48:11Speaker 08

  It all started when Jimmy took a shit so atomic, he ripped a damn hole in the space-time continuum.

• 48:16Casey Newton?

  Oh my god.

• 48:17Speaker 08

  Curtis was handed a mysterious box and a key from another universe, but instead of opening it, they partied. And now the key is inconveniently stuck inside Jimmy's back door. His, uh, wazoo.

• 48:31Kevin Roose?

  So this video game is called Dookie Dash. Essentially, the premise of the game is that there is a key that'll unlock something that has ended up lodged in the rectum of someone named Jimmy.

• 48:52Casey Newton?

  Who is an ape?

• 48:53Kevin Roose?

  Jimmy's a monkey. And we're gonna go to retrieve said key by swimming through the sewers, up through the toilet, into Jimmy's butthole.

• 49:04Casey Newton?

  The only way that any of this makes sense is if the majority of the Bored Ape Yacht Club owners are in eighth grade.

• 49:11Kevin Roose?

  And I doubt they are, because many of them are millionaires.

• 49:14Casey Newton?

  I mean, okay, let's keep going.

• 49:16Kevin Roose?

  So before I let you play this game, I want to just tell you what lengths I had to go through to get access to this game, because it was not a simple thing. So in order to play this game, you have to get something called a sewer pass. And to get a sewer pass, you have to own a bored ape or a mutant ape and have it in your crypto wallet.

• 49:37Casey Newton?

  And is a sewer pass just a second NFT, basically?

• 49:40Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, it's an NFT, and you can buy and sell them on the open market. So actually sewer passes right now, some of them are selling for thousands of dollars because people want to play this video game.

• 49:51Casey Newton?

  Right. Although, as always with crypto, you sort of don't know how many people actually want to play the video game and how much of it is just wash trading.

• 49:57Kevin Roose?

  Right. So I poked around a little bit on Twitter. I did find some bored apes. Some of them volunteered to lend me their sewer passes. But then it got complicated, and they were asking me to connect my crypto wallet. And these were anonymous people with monkey pictures on Twitter. And I was pretty sure they were gonna end up stealing all the contents of every bank account that I own. So I ended up just going to Yuga Labs, the company behind the Bored Ape Yacht Club, which lent me a sewer pass for the express purpose of testing out this game.

• 50:30Casey Newton?

  Amazing.

• 50:31Kevin Roose?

  So I'm gonna pull up the website here, Dookie Dash.

• 50:36Kevin Roose?

  You do have to connect your crypto wallet in order to play.

• 50:40Casey Newton?

  Because they need to verify that you have the sewer pass.

• 50:43Kevin Roose?

  Right, so the high score on this game, whoever gets the highest score in the time that this game is active, will get some kind of like special NFT that could be worth millions of dollars, or could be worth nothing. But people are taking this very seriously. There are all kinds of YouTube videos out there where people are giving tutorials about how to play Dookie Dash. I actually saw one with a guy who'd hired a professional gamer to play Dookie Dash under his sewer pass, so that if he got the high score, he would get the special NFT prize.

• 51:15Casey Newton?

  You know, I mean, once again, we just come back to this idea in crypto that like, everything is just about like cashing out as soon as you can, right? It's just about, like, sure, this might like take the shape of a game, but the real reason that it's interesting is that, well, you know, maybe there's a few hundred thousand dollars for you at the end.

• 51:30Kevin Roose?

  Such a skeptic, spoken like a man who's never played Dookie Dash. So I just want you to come around to my side of the table here.

• 51:40Casey Newton?

  Oh.

• 51:41Kevin Roose?

  We're having technical difficulties here.

• 51:44Casey Newton?

  So I'm looking at a black screen, and there's an animated J and an M, which I guess stands for Jimmy the Monkey, and it says, "Press to start."

• 51:54Casey Newton?

  All right, so I've clicked, and I'm now looking at the Dookie Dash logo. I'm agreeing to the Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, which I'm glad I'm doing on your laptop, because I assume this is downloading that where. And now it says, "Connect your wallet." So we'll do that, and have you done this yet?

• 52:13Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, yeah, let's do MetaMask.

• 52:16Casey Newton?

  MetaMask is a crypto wallet.

• 52:18Kevin Roose?

  And my seed phrase is, I'm just kidding.

• 52:23Casey Newton?

  I will avert my eyes as you type your seed phrase into your MetaMask wallet. Already, this is significantly more complicated than just playing any game on your phone.

• 52:33Kevin Roose?

  You know, I'm sick of your skepticism, Casey. I want you to approach this with an open mind.

• 52:37Casey Newton?

  All right.

• 52:38Kevin Roose?

  Though that's not the right password.

• 52:40Casey Newton?

  And this is another fun moment in the crypto journey, is when you can't actually remember your password to connect your wallet to get your sewer pass.

• 52:47Kevin Roose?

  Oh, what is going on?

• 52:52Kevin Roose?

  God damn it.

• 52:53Casey Newton?

  That's great. Now, in just three more failed password attempts, Kevin will be locked out of his bank accounts forever. So, hold a good thought.

• 53:04Kevin Roose?

  Okay, I think we're good. Okay. Whew, we're in.

• 53:10Casey Newton?

  All right.

• 53:13Casey Newton?

  Choose a sewer pass you want to play with. We have one sewer pass, which we will validate. There was an animation of a butthole closing. That is not a joke. And the butthole is open.

• 53:26Casey Newton?

  And I'm now going to get some explanations.

• 53:32Casey Newton?

  All right, I am going to be hurtling through a tunnel, looking for a key. Use your trackpad and mouse.

• 53:39Kevin Roose?

  It's like, if you've played Temple Run, it's basically just Temple Run.

• 53:42Casey Newton?

  Yes, all right, so I'm sort of moving.

• 53:46Casey Newton?

  I'm moving my finger on the trackpad to try to dodge obstacles as we go through this tunnel.

• 53:56Casey Newton?

  And I just, I hit a, some sort of sewer grate. Is there a way to duck?

• 54:00Kevin Roose?

  Just move. It's three-dimensional, so you can go up and down.

• 54:03Casey Newton?

  Oh, got it.

• 54:07Kevin Roose?

  And then if you click, it'll like-

• 54:08Casey Newton?

  I see.

• 54:09Kevin Roose?

  Gives you a little boost.

• 54:10Casey Newton?

  You click what? Oh, oh, okay. All right, I successfully ducked under a sewer grate. And now let's see if I can boost through some wooden boards here.

• 54:24Casey Newton?

  I did, I boosted through some boards.

• 54:30Casey Newton?

  Okay. I boosted through one set of boards directly into another set of boards, and it was game over.

• 54:35Kevin Roose?

  All right, so you got total score of 931. Yuga Labs told me that the high score of anyone who's played this game is 600,000, roughly. So you've got a little ways to go, but I have faith in you. You want to try again?

• 54:47Casey Newton?

  Yeah, let me try again. So...

• 55:14Casey Newton?

  Oh my god, alright. So I've just died for the fourth time and I have to say like my interest in this game is now completely spent. But for reasons that I think it makes sense to talk about quickly, right?

• 55:25Kevin Roose?

  Yes.

• 55:25Casey Newton?

  Like, I think one reason why people are down on crypto in general is that there's a sense that when you financialize everything, when everything is about money from start to finish, you really kind of take the heart out of it, you know? And that crypto people love to talk about this stuff in terms of democratization and expanding access to things and, you know, what if we all owned a piece of every Disney character, that sort of thing. But then you play a game like Dookie Dash and you see what it really is, which is kind of a ripoff of something from Web2World, sort of larded up with financial tools, and now it will be primarily of interest to people who hope they can make a lot of money off of it.

• 56:09Kevin Roose?

  Right. I mean, this is a video game that I think it's fair to say is like, underwhelming. It's not all that fun to play, and yet, it's getting all this play because people are interested in making money through it. So it's like, the actual video game is almost an afterthought.

• 56:26Casey Newton?

  I'm surprised that they pandered as hard toward middle schoolers as they did. Like, it feels like a 40-year-old's idea of what a 13-year-old would love, you know? But that's so strange to me, given that I don't think that it's really the, you know, Generation Alpha crowd that is gonna be interested in this stuff.

• 56:48Kevin Roose?

  Totally. I mean, I just love, like, Marc Andreessen, the famous co-founder of this venture capital firm, Andreessen Horowitz, very influential person in the tech industry. Came out with this blog post a few years ago that was called It's Time to Build, basically making the case that, you know, our society had become obsessed with these frivolous, small innovations and that we collectively just needed to start thinking bigger and investing in infrastructure and building new hospitals and schools and next generation, you know, biotech labs, like no more frivolous things. And then his firm goes and leads a $450 million round in the parent company of the Bored Ape Yacht Club.

• 57:32Kevin Roose?

  And they take that money and use it to try to build out this NFT media empire, including the video game Dookie Dash. So when Andreessen Horowitz says it's time to build, I guess what they're thinking about in part is a video game where you travel through a sewer to get to Jimmy's butthole.

• 57:51Casey Newton?

  Right. Or it's just time to build like financial engineering products in the like in wearing the disguise of a media company.

• 57:58Kevin Roose?

  Right. I mean, when I saw the trailer for Dookie Dash going around, it felt like an artifact from a different era of the tech industry, which wasn't long ago. I mean, this was literally, you know, less than a year ago. Bored Ape Yacht Club was valued in billions of dollars by investors. People were, you know, seriously, seriously talking about it as kind of the future of media and entertainment. And it just now feels like it's from another universe to me.

• 58:25Casey Newton?

  Yeah. I mean, you know, before we started the show, the two of us did watch the performance at the VMAs of Eminem and Snoop Dogg. And the whole thing was just a brand activation for the Bored Apes. And there was this sort of, you know, cartoon animations. And it was very similar to Dookie Dash, right? Where it's like, we're, uh, young people seem like they like weed. Let's like put a lot of weed in here. But I think, you know, like the teens have pretty much seen through this. And it doesn't feel like this is where culture is happening. And like where culture is actually happening is on TikTok. And so they're going to spend their time there.

• 59:01Kevin Roose?

  Right. You know, there was this whole effort to kind of bring crypto to the mainstream. There was an effort to sort of tell stories about crypto being used in the developing world as sort of an instrument of financial liberation. And it was sort of this effort to like, get away from kind of the image that crypto had at the time, which was like the crypto bro. And so, you know, part of how you could have done that is through these sort of NFT franchises, which actually were quite popular in their heyday. I mean, some crypto stuff was all smoke and mirrors from the, from the get go. You know, I, I did go to NFT conferences and meetups. Like, there was real energy there in the culture. But it's just so sad that like, the, the way that they chose to sort of use that influence

• 59:45Kevin Roose?

  was to like, make video games like Dookie Dash.

• 59:48Casey Newton?

  Yeah. I mean, it's just like, sort of so scatological and feels almost aggressively off putting. I mean, like, you know, one thing I'll say is, this game is very silly and we're having fun talking about it. It can be a good idea in tech to do silly things. It can, it can also be a good idea in tech to do things that look stupid to a lot of people, right? Like, one of the most famous things that looked stupid to a lot of people was Airbnb. What, strangers are gonna stay in my house? No one would ever agree to that. Now it's like a massive, multi-billion dollar public company, right? So, I'm sort of all in favor of people trying to do very silly things. But if it's just kind of, if the silliness is just a thin veneer over something deeply cynical, then I think you're probably not gonna have a lot of success.

• 1:00:31Kevin Roose?

  Or maybe you're wrong, and Dookie Dash becomes a trillion dollar franchise and the Board Ape Yacht Club acquires Netflix out of bankruptcy.

• 1:00:41Casey Newton?

  I would not even bet a borrowed sewer pass that that is gonna happen.

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

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• 1:03:14Casey Newton?

  Hard Fork is produced by Davis Land. We were edited this week by Shriya Sinha and Paula Schuman. This episode was fact-checked by Caitlin Love. Today's show was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baetup, Marian Lozano, and Rowan Nemisto. Special thanks to Hana Ingber, Nell Galogly, Kate LaPresti, and Jeffrey Miranda. You can email us at [email protected]. That's all for this week. We'll see you next time.

• 1:03:47Casey Newton?

  God, why didn't I see that coming?

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