Quantum TikTok + Memecoin Mania + Chris Hayes on the Attention Wars

“We are starting to see how Silicon Valley wants to do business during the Trump administration.”

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies. It's time to put AI to work. Is your business ready? The challenge isn't getting started with AI. It's scaling beyond pilots while maintaining control of your data, governance, infrastructure, and costs. Dell AI Factory provides the integrated foundation you need to scale AI securely and efficiently with one trusted partner, Dell, AI on your terms. From idea to impact. Learn more at dell.com/yourwaytoAI. That's dell.com/yourwaytoAI.

• 0:35Kevin Roose?

  Casey, what's going on with you?

• 0:37Casey Newton?

  Well, let's see.

• 0:40Casey Newton?

  My boyfriend is away for a week for work, and so I decided to entertain myself by buying electronics.

• 0:47Kevin Roose?

  You did, you went on a shopping spree.

• 0:49Casey Newton?

  I did. I went to the Apple Store and I said, I'm going to get a new iPad Pro with the fancy keyboard. Have you seen the fancy keyboard? It's like, it is like these Mac keyboards, but, you know, slimmer. And it is way more than I need, but I just thought it looked so cool.

• 1:05Kevin Roose?

  Hmm. And what are you going to do on that? Just play Bellatro?

• 1:07Casey Newton?

  Yeah, mostly just check emails. Yeah, it turns out, no matter what, every year, oh, there's a fancy new laptop and the battery life's incredible and the processing power, you wouldn't believe it. And what am I doing with it? I'm checking emails.

• 1:20Kevin Roose?

  Yeah.

• 1:20Casey Newton?

  Yeah. Am I responding to them? Mostly no. But, oh, boy, can I read an email.

• 1:25Kevin Roose?

  No one's ever checked email and ignored it faster.

• 1:32Kevin Roose?

  I'm Kevin Druse, a tech columnist at The New York Times.

• 1:34Casey Newton?

  I'm Casey Doon from Platformer.

• 1:36Kevin Roose?

  And this is Art Fork.

• 1:37Casey Newton?

  This week, how TikTok died and came back to life and what it means for how tech does business with Donald Trump. Then, why meme coins are on the rise and how the Trump family is cashing in. And finally, MSNBC's Chris Hayes is here to discuss his new book on attention. Kevin, let's ask him a few questions while we play Subway Surfers on our phones.

• 1:57Kevin Roose?

  You say that again, I'm watching YouTube.

• 2:06Kevin Roose?

  Well, Casey, big week in Washington. Obviously, we had the inauguration of President Trump for his second term in office.

• 2:13Casey Newton?

  I noticed you weren't on the dais. Did you not give him a million dollars?

• 2:17Kevin Roose?

  No, I only gave half a million. So I was watching it from the subway down the street.

• 2:22Casey Newton?

  Sad.

• 2:23Kevin Roose?

  But we did have a lot of news coming out of the tech world in relation to the first days of the Trump presidency. Monday, obviously, at the inauguration itself, we had Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, all of the titans of tech standing right behind the Trump family. Elon Musk was also there, of course. It's being reported that he's likely to get an office in the West Wing. And we also have had some announcements coming out of this first wave of executive orders. The Biden administration's executive order on AI was repealed. There's also been an announcement of a new major AI infrastructure project, which we'll talk about in a second, called Stargate.

• 3:05Kevin Roose?

  But I think what is sort of the overriding story of the past week is that we are starting to see how Silicon Valley wants to do business during the Trump administration. And where I want to start this discussion is with what's been happening with TikTok, because it has been a wild ride. Obviously, last week, we gave our TikTok update, where we called TikTok V12, final, final, use this. But that was not the end of the TikTok story.

• 3:31Casey Newton?

  No, there was yet another final, final V to be issued, Kevin.

• 3:36Kevin Roose?

  So what is going on with TikTok? Catch us up.

• 3:39Casey Newton?

  Well, Kevin, it goes like this. TikTok was banned, and then it went down for about 12 hours, and then it came back, but only sort of. And so it is now both alive and dead at the same time, existing in a state of quantum superposition with itself. It is Schrödinger's app.

• 3:59Kevin Roose?

  So people who use TikTok opened their apps over the weekend. I believe it was on Saturday.

• 4:05Casey Newton?

  Yes.

• 4:06Kevin Roose?

  And saw a message. And Casey, what did that message say?

• 4:09Casey Newton?

  Well, Kevin, when people opened the app, they were greeted with a screen that said that TikTok, quote, "isn't available right now." But it added, quote, "We are fortunate that President Trump has indicated that he will work with us on a solution to reinstate TikTok once he takes office. Please stay tuned."

• 4:26Kevin Roose?

  So I want to ask about this message because I thought it was very interesting. But first, Casey, what did you do during the 12 hours the TikTok was down? How was the outage for you?

• 4:35Casey Newton?

  I learned Mandarin. It was incredible. I never realized that that was all that I needed. But Duolingo really did me a sal- no, I was, I'll tell you what happened, Kevin. I was on my way to a friend's house. He was having a housewarming. And I did pull up TikTok because a friend had messaged me saying, oh, my gosh, it's already down. This was sort of Pacific time. I had expected that the app wouldn't go down until Sunday morning Pacific time, but it was already gone. And I got to the party and people were buzzing about the fact that TikTok was no longer there. And I suspect that's because that some of them were playing King's Cup and they were hoping to upload some highlights to TikTok and they were prevented from doing so.

• 5:13Kevin Roose?

  A true disaster.

• 5:15Casey Newton?

  Is a drinking game, but go on.

• 5:16Kevin Roose?

  Yes. So in addition to TikTok, a bunch of other ByteDance apps disappeared from the Apple and Google US app stores, including Lemon8, CapCut. And the one that you actually texted me about with a very alarmed tone over the weekend, Marvel Snap disappeared.

• 5:32Casey Newton?

  Marvel Snap, we have made passing jokes about Marvel Snap over the years. It is a mobile card game. It is so fun. I don't actually have it on my phone anymore because it, it is the thing that is too addictive for me to be able to get my hands on. But I still watch tons of content of creators playing this video game. And there was never even a hint that it would be in any way implicated in this ban. But it turns out that the publisher of Marvel Snap is owned by ByteDance.

• 5:58Kevin Roose?

  So it just disappeared along with all the other ByteDance apps?

• 6:01Casey Newton?

  It just disappeared. It was, it was like a Thanos Snap, you know? Marvel Snap was snapped out of existence and it took a couple of days for it to snap back.

• 6:09Kevin Roose?

  Yes. So let's talk about what is going on with these apps because many of these apps are now working again, but still not available in the app stores. So is TikTok banned or not?

• 6:20Casey Newton?

  Yes.

• 6:23Casey Newton?

  Here's the thing. So TikTok was banned by a law, PAFACA,

• 6:28Kevin Roose?

  PAFACA.

• 6:28Casey Newton?

  That we've talked about on the show before. And the law did not leave any exception. What it said was, the president can issue a 90 day extension for ByteDance to find a deal to divest the app. President Biden chose not to do that. And this banning of TikTok happened as Biden was leaving office, but before Trump had taken office. This weekend, Trump said, no, no, no, there is no need for you, the app stores and all of the ByteDance service providers to take TikTok down. You can leave it up. I have got your back. I'm going to sign an executive order on Monday and I promise you there will be no legal liability. And so when it gets to Monday, Trump does actually do

• 7:11Casey Newton?

  this and the companies involved have different takes on this. So Oracle, which provides all of the sort of hosting infrastructure for TikTok in the United States. They say, we believe you, President Trump. We can go ahead and flip the switches on. Akamai, which is what they call a content delivery network that Oracle uses to make sure that you can get your TikTok fix no matter where you are. They say, we believe you, President Trump. We're going to go ahead and flip the servers on. Apple and Google are a little bit more nervous about this whole thing. They're reading the part of the law that says that not just President Trump, but a future president could hold them accountable for enabling this app, which

• 7:55Casey Newton?

  again, is banned under the law that was passed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court. And that fine, by the way, Kevin, $5,000 per user. TikTok has something like 170 million users in the United States. These fines would stretch into the hundreds of billions of dollars.

• 8:12Kevin Roose?

  Yes, these would be ruinous fines if this law were actually enforced according to the letter of the law at any point in the future.

• 8:18Casey Newton?

  Yes. And so that leads to the wild situation that we've been in this week where if you had already downloaded TikTok onto your device, you can use it essentially as normal. But if you didn't and you're just hearing about TikTok for the first time on Hard Fork today and you want to go check it out, you cannot download the app.

• 8:36Kevin Roose?

  Like it literally is not in the App Store. There is no way to get it onto an Android device or an Apple device.

• 8:42Casey Newton?

  Absolutely not. And by the way, the same holds true for Marvel Snap and some of these other apps that were affected.

• 8:46Kevin Roose?

  And what about updates to existing apps? Like, can they update the app without going through Google or Apple?

• 8:52Casey Newton?

  No, they can't. And this is one of the big questions that we're all gonna have our eyes on is how badly does the quality of the TikTok service degrade? Because, you know, I don't know about you, but I'm looking at my app updates more or less every day because sometimes you'll actually find news in there, right? An app I cover has added some feature and they'll just disclose it right in their release notes. And what you will notice if you do that is that apps like TikTok are updating certainly every week, sometimes every few days. And included in those updates are various bug fixes, sometimes security vulnerabilities are identified and patched, new features get added, other features get removed, and now ByteDance is gonna be in a situation where into April, unless something changes, they're not gonna be able to ship updates to American users.

• 9:38Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, so that is the current state of TikTok. It is wild. I don't think we've ever had a, an app of any size that existed in this limbo state where it is technically illegal under the law, but the service providers, some of them are making it possible to access, but also the app stores are not letting you get it. It is just a, like, we've never been here before.

• 9:59Casey Newton?

  No, we really haven't. And just to really underscore this, we are in a position where the Congress has passed, the previous president signed, and the Supreme Court upheld a law, and the incoming president said, "No, no, no, that law does not apply because I say so and I have the executive authority to say that this law does not apply." In the TikTok case, it feels fairly silly and benign. I can imagine other cases where that would be a huge problem.

• 10:25Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, I mean, it does call into question the sort of efficacy of checks and balances, right? If a president can just come into office on day one and declare that a law passed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court and signed by the previous president is invalid, like Schoolhouse Rock would have something to say about that.

• 10:41Casey Newton?

  Yeah, seems bad, as they say. But Twitter.

• 10:45Kevin Roose?

  But let's talk about, so that's where we are today as of this taping. What happens next? So President Trump comes into office. He signs a bunch of executive orders. He issues a bunch of declarations. One of the things he says is that he is going to extend the deadline for the the sort of enforcement of PAFACA by 75 days to sort of give the companies involved a way to try to make a deal.

• 11:11Casey Newton?

  Yeah, that's right. And specifically what he says, Kevin, is that what he wants to see is for ByteDance to divest TikTok through some kind of joint venture between the United States and TikTok's current owners. There is not a specific plan. It's also not clear what it means that the United States owns 50% of TikTok. Like, are we turning TikTok into a public utility?

• 11:34Kevin Roose?

  Yes, let's, let's actually play the clip because I think, I think what you're saying as, as characterizing his remarks is actually much more clear than what he actually said, which was, I just struggled to make heads or tails with. So let's play Trump's comments when he was asked about the delayed enforcement of the TikTok ban.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  Are you open to Elon buying TikTok?

• 11:51Speaker 03

  I would be if he wanted to buy it, yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  And on your inauguration, on your inauguration.

• 11:54Speaker 03

  I'd like Larry to buy it, too. I have the right to make a deal. So the deal I'm thinking about, Larry, let's negotiate in front of the media. The deal, I think, is this, and I've met with owners of TikTok, the big owners. It's worthless if it doesn't get a permit. It's not like, oh, you can take the US. The whole thing is worthless. With a permit, it's worth like a trillion dollars. So what I'm thinking about saying to somebody is buy it and give half to the United States of America, half, and we'll give you the permit. And they'll have a great partner, the United States. And they'll have something that's actually more valuable because they have the ultimate

• 12:36Speaker 03

  partner and the United States will make it very worthwhile for them in terms of the permits and everything else. But so think of it, you have an asset that has no value or has a trillion dollar value. It all depends on whether or not the United States gives the permit. So what I'm saying is let the United States give the permit and the United States should get half. Sounds reasonable. What do you think?

• 13:00Kevin Roose?

  So the Larry that Donald Trump is referring to throughout that clip is Larry Ellison, the founder of Oracle, which is a provider to TikTok and maybe also a potential bidder. But like, what is he talking about with permits and a deal and this thing being worth a trillion dollars? Like, can you translate?

• 13:17Casey Newton?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Kevin Roose?

  What he's saying?

• 13:18Casey Newton?

  I'm glad you asked me this because I have a feeling this is going to come up a lot over the next four years. And so I just want to say, from here, going forward, the answer to what is Donald Trump talking about, I truly do not know, and I will not speculate. It would be so irresponsible for me to say that I knew. All we can imagine is that there is going to be some sort of deal, maybe, that looks something like what he proposed during his first administration, which was that he really wanted TikTok to go to one of his supporters. So in the first Trump administration, it was either going to be Oracle or Walmart, which had donated a lot to his campaign, or this time around, it's going to be Larry Ellison of Oracle, or Elon Musk, who is his new favorite donor.

• 14:03Casey Newton?

  But what does the actual shape of this thing look like? I don't know. And it is all starting to feel very silly.

• 14:08Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, and I'm not even sure, like, what mechanism would allow the US government to get 50% of whatever trillion-dollar deal Donald Trump is imagining. I mean, there's a universe in which you could nationalize TikTok, or partly nationalize it, and have the, literally, like, the US Treasury become a 50% shareholder in the new spun-off TikTok. But I'm not sure that's what he means.

• 14:31Casey Newton?

  But, I mean, can we just say, that is crazy. That is, like, in particular, it's crazy for a Republican to propose nationalizing TikTok. I don't even know what that means, although, you know, presumably, if the US government did own TikTok, then Donald Trump would have a lot to say about, like, how content gets moderated there, and, you know, maybe what sort of posts get promoted or not.

• 14:48Kevin Roose?

  Right. So now, they have this 75-day grace period, this extension via executive order.

• 14:57Kevin Roose?

  Do you know what is likely to happen in the next 75 days? Like, are there deal talks going on? What do you think is gonna happen?

• 15:05Casey Newton?

  Yeah, so I mean, a couple of really important things have happened over the past few days, Kevin, and I think chief among them is that the Chinese government has signaled for the first time that it would be okay with ByteDance divesting TikTok. This is huge. And the entire time that we've been covering this story, so like going back five years now, in almost every story, there's been some line about the fact that China likely would not allow this to go through, that this would sort of hurt their national pride, it would set a terrible precedent. You can imagine all the reasons why China would not want the United States to say, hey, you have to divest that app.

• 15:46Casey Newton?

  But all of this discussion is happening against the backdrop of Trump threatening to place massive tariffs on Chinese goods, which could hurt the Chinese economy. And Trump has explicitly linked, in conversations with reporters, TikTok's fate to the tariffs that he is thinking about placing on Chinese goods. So TikTok has now become a chess piece in helping Trump and the Chinese figure out, what are the tariffs gonna be? What is China gonna be okay with? And so presumably, whatever negotiation is about to take place is gonna involve those things.

• 16:21Kevin Roose?

  Hmm, that's really interesting. I'm also curious about the shifting politics of all this. One thing that's been very strange to me over the past week or so is that I have just not been able to predict with any accuracy, like which politicians from which parties are gonna feel which way about whatever's happening with TikTok. So just before inauguration, we had the Biden administration, which, remember, signed the law forcing the sale of TikTok, trying to sort of distance itself from the ban, saying, oh, that's up to Donald Trump to decide what he wants to do about TikTok. So that was confusing thing number one.

• 16:58Casey Newton?

  I was truly so exasperated by this, Kevin. You think about the fact, this is truly the only piece of tech regulation that Joe Biden moved and actually got Signed into law during his entire presidency. And just as it is taking effect, his press secretary, Corrine Jean-Pierre, called TikTok's threat to go dark on Sunday, quote, "a stunt." And she also said, "We see no reason for TikTok or other companies to take actions in the next few days before the Trump administration takes office." Like, you see no reason? You passed a law saying it's illegal and that you will find anyone who ignores this law in up to hundreds of billions of dollars? So, yes, the fact that Biden tried to disown his own law, I found profoundly embarrassing.

• 17:40Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, it was super weird. The other confusing thing is that some Republicans, who would normally go along with Donald Trump and saying, "Let's make a deal," are coming out against the extension and the possible reprieve that Donald Trump is considering offering to TikTok. In particular, Senator Tom Cotton posted on Saturday on X, basically saying to the tech companies that are the service providers to TikTok, "You better not let this thing back, or you're in trouble." He posted, quote, "Any company that hosts, distributes services, or otherwise facilitates communist-controlled TikTok could face hundreds of billions of dollars of ruinous liability under the law."

• 18:21Kevin Roose?

  So, basically, some Republicans, even as Donald Trump is expressing interest in making a deal, are saying, "There will be no deal. This is good law. It stands. And God help you if you offer this app in your app stores or through your services."

• 18:34Casey Newton?

  So, that's true, Kevin, but I think it's notable how few people actually said what Tom Cotton said, right? Remind yourself why Congress passed this law in the first place and why Joe Biden signed it. They said, "TikTok is a clear and present danger to the national security of the United States." That they believe that ByteDance might be using this app to spy on Americans, to misuse their data, to spread propaganda and sow dissent in the United States, right? They painted this picture of TikTok as this true menace, and then they finally managed to pass a ban. And then, just as it goes into effect, everyone, all of a sudden, either says, "No, don't actually enforce it," or they just sort of throw their hands up and say nothing.

• 19:18Casey Newton?

  So, that, again, I think it is so embarrassing that Tom Cotton was really one of the only loud voices saying, "Hey, remember when he passed a law?"

• 19:27Kevin Roose?

  Right, there's just sort of this like collective amnesia setting in, oh, we did that?

• 19:31Casey Newton?

  Yeah, and it really makes you wonder, like, was this app really that big of a problem if even after banning it, it seems like nobody actually has the will to enforce the ban?

• 19:40Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, I mean, one interpretation is they're just scared of backlash from TikTok users, many of whom are of voting age, and they're sort of watching the freak out over the possible disappearance of TikTok and saying, I actually don't want to take that on as a liability.

• 19:54Casey Newton?

  So, I mean, that makes sense to me logically, but you remember during the discussions about banning the app, when TikTok users flooded the phone lines in Congress and said, don't you dare do this, Congress was enraged. And they said, how dare you exercise your freedom of speech in this democracy, now we're gonna ban you extra hard, TikTok, for daring to challenge us.

• 20:13Kevin Roose?

  It is so messy, like, I was trying to explain to someone in my life recently what the latest on TikTok is, and I just found myself like twisting up in knots because I truly, like, what is happening now, I have no prior precedent for. There is no roadmap for, and completely uncharted territory. But I want to just broaden out beyond TikTok a little bit, because something else that has been catching my eye over the past week or so, as we enter into this new administration, is that I think we are starting to see tech companies learn a lesson about how to do business during a Trump presidency. And that is to basically do whatever you can to allow President Trump to take credit

• 20:58Kevin Roose?

  for things that you were already planning to do, or that maybe were already in motion, frame it as a win for the Trump administration, obsequiously fawn and praise the president for his role, however big or small in doing this. We saw this in the TikTok announcement that they put on their app about President Trump is gonna, has a plan to bring us back, even if it's not technically true. And then, wait for the moment to pass, wait for the spotlight to shift, and just go about your business the normal way. So, we've seen this a couple times now, but the most stark example was something else that happened this week, actually in that very same conference where President Trump was asked about TikTok, which is the announcement of this thing,

• 21:41Kevin Roose?

  Stargate, this new $100 billion, possibly up to half a trillion dollar AI infrastructure project. Yeah, tell us about Stargate. So this was announced at a big White House press conference this week. It was attended by Sam Altman from OpenAI, Larry Ellison from Oracle, and Masayoshi Son from SoftBank. And they announced this major infrastructure project, basically spending $100 billion, up to $500 billion, building AI infrastructure, data centers, et cetera, for the use of OpenAI in a way that they framed as kind of a national AI project.

• 22:21Casey Newton?

  Yes, and this is a separate company from OpenAI, but OpenAI is expected to be the major customer.

• 22:28Kevin Roose?

  Yes. So if you listen, if you watched the press conference, if you heard any of the coverage of it afterward, this was framed by the people leading these companies, leading this project, as something that President Trump had sort of decided on and could take credit for. Sam Altman literally, you know, got up in front of a microphone and said, "We couldn't have done this without you, Mr. President." This is false. This is a lie. This project was going to happen anyway.

• 22:57Casey Newton?

  Wait, are you saying that Sam Altman is not being consistently candid about whether Stargate was possible with or without?

• 23:03Kevin Roose?

  I mean, I don't know of any other way to characterize what happened here because they had already broken ground on this project. All the money for this project comes from private sector companies. There is no government funding slated to take part in Project Stargate. This is purely a private sector business project, but it is something that they have managed to recast as a win for President Trump. And I have two things to say about this. One, probably very effective. Like, we know from watching the first Trump administration that this is a tactic that worked over and over again during the first Trump administration. So probably very effective. But I just think this is bad in the long term because what we now have is kind

• 23:45Kevin Roose?

  of a constructed fiction that all of the biggest companies in technology are now participating in co-writing along with President Trump, where everything bad is the fault of one of Donald Trump's enemies and everything good is something that he had a major hand in creating. And I just think like, right now, maybe that's relatively harmless because everyone's doing it, there's kind of strength in numbers. But I think over time, I'm a person who believes that lying creates bad karma and that somehow, at some point, in some way, these sort of CEOs' willingness to just blatantly lie about their projects and their connection to the federal government is going to come back to bite them. What do you think?

• 24:26Casey Newton?

  Oh, for sure. I mean, go back to the first administration and look at the half-life of Donald Trump's relationships with his closest allies. They were not typically longer than a year or two. So I expect we're going to see a lot of churning and thrashing in these relationships over the next few years, Kevin. But I also think it's worth maybe elaborating a bit on what in particular OpenAI and other AI companies are hoping to get out of Trump and why they might have been willing to give him some credit for this Stargate project. And that is, as we mentioned at the top of the show, one of Trump's first acts was to repeal Biden's executive order on AI. And that order essentially just tried to place some very light guardrails on the development

• 25:09Casey Newton?

  of AI, maybe make it move just a little bit slower, maybe ask these companies just to do a little bit more about safety. And by getting rid of that order, President Trump ensured that now there is essentially no regulatory infrastructure that is governing the development of AI anymore. And so if you can somehow get together half a trillion dollars to go build data centers and plug it into, you know, OpenAI's models, there's now nothing that says that you can't. And I suspect that that alone is more than enough to make Sam Altman want to stand up and say, "Thank you, President Trump. We couldn't have done it without you."

• 25:43Kevin Roose?

  Yeah. Casey, maybe let's end this part of the conversation with a prediction. 75 days from now, 73 days from now, when the extension period for TikTok is over and Puffaka finally is slated to come into effect and be enforced, do you think that TikTok will have a new owner?

• 26:03Casey Newton?

  No, I don't. I think nothing could be funnier or more likely than something happening, but just not being wrapped up in 75 days, leading to another extension that is required to make something happen.

• 26:16Kevin Roose?

  Can he just keep extending it indefinitely?

• 26:18Casey Newton?

  I think he's just gonna keep trying, because again, if he finds out that he can just rule this country through executive order and never needs to pay attention to any laws passed by Congress, I think that would be really interesting information for him.

• 26:28Kevin Roose?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Casey Newton?

  What do you think's gonna happen?

• 26:30Kevin Roose?

  I'll take the other side. I think there will be a deal.

• 26:32Casey Newton?

  Okay.

• 26:32Kevin Roose?

  I think that because TikTok is now a bargaining chip in the sort of overall conflict with China about tariffs and everything like that, I think that the Chinese government will say, you know, it's better if we can eke out a better deal on tariffs that won't wreck our economy. Maybe it's worth letting go of TikTok, especially if we can sell it to someone who we have some influence over, like Elon Musk.

• 26:55Casey Newton?

  Interesting. Well, you know, Kevin, Elon Musk, many folks believe was radicalized in the lead up to and after his purchase of Twitter. The more that he looked at it, the more he sort of transformed into a kind of diehard poster. I'm wondering, do we think something similar will happen to him if he acquires TikTok? And what sort of person could TikTok turn Elon Musk into?

• 27:17Kevin Roose?

  I don't know. Maybe he could become a better dancer or something like that.

• 27:20Casey Newton?

  I think he could become one of the great dancers in this country, and I think that would be a beautiful thing to see.

• 27:31Kevin Roose?

  Well, Casey, we're gonna go from TikTok to trick stocks. That's what I call meme coins.

• 28:03Speaker 00

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• 29:50Casey Newton?

  Well, Kevin, we've said before that a big consequence of Trump's victory is that crypto is once again on the rise, and this week it was President Trump himself and his wife who decided to get into the action.

• 30:02Kevin Roose?

  They sure did.

• 30:03Casey Newton?

  So tell us a little bit about what happened over the weekend with the Trump family and cryptocurrencies.

• 30:10Kevin Roose?

  So it's been a very chaotic few days, but basically the story is this: On Friday, several days before taking office, Donald Trump announced on a post on Truth Social that he was launching the Trump Coin. This was basically a meme coin issued by GetTrumpMemes.com under the ticker symbol Trump. And Casey, I know you're saying, "This sounds like a very valuable asset. I wonder what this buying this token entitles me to."

• 30:37Casey Newton?

  Yeah, what does it entitle me to, Kevin?

• 30:39Kevin Roose?

  Absolutely nothing.

• 30:40Casey Newton?

  No, no!

• 30:40Kevin Roose?

  This is a purely speculative instrument. It did not entitle you to, I don't know, a seat at inauguration or an invitation to an inaugural ball. All it did was say, "You now own some Donald Trump coin."

• 30:52Casey Newton?

  That's unfortunate, because I would think at the very least, if you acquired a certain level of Trump coin, you would be allowed to eliminate at least one regulation of your choice.

• 31:02Kevin Roose?

  Maybe that's for V2.

• 31:04Casey Newton?

  Now, was the president the only Trump who issued a coin this weekend, Kevin?

• 31:09Kevin Roose?

  Well, I'm glad you asked, because it turns out he was not. On Sunday, Mania Trump went on social media and announced her own coin as well, and this currency, the Mania Coin, was also going to be issued on the internet, and people could go buy however many they wanted.

• 31:25Casey Newton?

  Now, Kevin, meme coins come and go pretty regularly. Not all of them hit great heights. How did the Trump and Mania coins do over the weekend?

• 31:35Kevin Roose?

  So, over the weekend, both of these coins surged in value, actually becoming some of the most valuable cryptocurrencies in existence. At various points this week, these coins were worth well over $10 billion. And obviously, that's just a paper valuation. That does not mean that anyone actually made billions of dollars, but it does mean, and I saw posts- On social media over the weekend from people saying that they had made millions of dollars speculating on these meme coins.

• 32:03Casey Newton?

  Wow. Okay. Now, Kevin, this is not the first Trump-related cryptocurrency that I'm aware of. Some of our listeners may have also heard about World Liberty Coin. So what's the difference between that one and these new coins?

• 32:17Kevin Roose?

  Yes, there have been lots of Trump-adjacent crypto projects. He had an NFT that he sold earlier. There was this World Liberty Coin. These were sort of loosely affiliated with the Trump family and the Trump business. But these new coins, to the extent that we know who is behind them, they appear to be linked to entities controlled directly by the Trump family themselves, right? So obviously, these meme coins, they don't have a lot of transparency. They're not required to disclose everything about their ownership structure. But we know, and people who have been reporting on this, have discovered that Trump and his affiliates own something like 80% of the total supply of these Trump coins and 35% of the supply of Mania coins.

• 32:59Casey Newton?

  Got it. Okay. And so lots of folks, myself included, have been referring to these as meme coins. When does a cryptocurrency become a meme coin, exactly?

• 33:09Kevin Roose?

  Well, there are some people, skeptics, who would say all of these are meme coins, right? They don't have anything fundamental underlying them. I am not one of these people. I think that there's a stark divide between crypto tokens that are supposed to provide some utility, whether it's being useful in paying for things, whether it's being used in smart contracts on the Ethereum blockchain, whether it's-

• 33:29Casey Newton?

  Money laundering is another one that comes up.

• 33:31Kevin Roose?

  That is a utility. It's not a legal one, but it is a utility. But what separates these meme coins is that they are purely speculative instruments, right? Not even the most hardcore crypto boosters are arguing that these things serve a function in the crypto market. They are just essentially little bits of code that you can buy and sell. And if you happen to buy at the right time and sell at the right time, you can make some money. And if you don't happen to be that lucky, you lose your money.

• 33:58Casey Newton?

  All right. Well, and Kevin, it does seem like a lot of people wind up losing a lot of money when they buy and sell meme coins. Why should we care about these coins in particular, given that they might be meaningless within a year?

• 34:11Kevin Roose?

  So one of the reasons we should care about this is because it personally affects me and a prediction that I made on this very podcast several weeks ago.

• 34:18Casey Newton?

  Remind us about that.

• 34:19Kevin Roose?

  So this was one of my predictions for 2025 in the tech industry was that a newly released crypto meme coin would briefly reach $100 billion in market cap before crashing. Now, that has not happened yet. The Trump coins have not yet reached $100 billion in market cap, but I feel confident that before the end of the year, one or more meme coins will reach that threshold and I will be proven right and I'll get bragging rights. But more seriously, one reason to care about these meme coins is that they open up a new and worrying avenue of political corruption. It does actually mean that if you are an overseas investor who wants to do business in America during the Trump administration,

• 35:04Kevin Roose?

  you can just go buy some Trump coins and you can do so anonymously because of the way that these transactions work. And many ethics lawyers and other experts have been condemning these meme coins, saying, "This is literally allowing people to cash in on the presidency and it's giving people who want to transfer money to Donald Trump and his family a way to do so without leaving any trace."

• 35:26Casey Newton?

  Hmm. Well, can President Trump cash in in a big way right away?

• 35:33Kevin Roose?

  So it's a little complicated because there are basically two ways that you can make money by starting a meme coin. And I know you're interested in starting a meme coin, so this might be directly applicable to you.

• 35:43Casey Newton?

  Okay, I'm taking notes.

• 35:44Kevin Roose?

  So one way that you can make money through a meme coin, selling a meme coin, is by doing what's known as a rug pull, which is that you reserve some portion of the coins for yourself and entities connected to you and your family. You hype the coins so that people start buying it because they think they can get rich. And then at a certain point, when you decide that you've made enough money, you sell your coins to the highest bidder. And if the price of the thing collapses, you wash your hands and you walk away.

• 36:15Casey Newton?

  Wow, that seems like a great deal for me.

• 36:16Kevin Roose?

  So, yes, it is a great deal. Many people have done this to great profit. But in this case of the Trump coin specifically, there are some protections against rug pulling in this case. So according to the people behind the project, the 80% share of Trump tokens that Trump and his affiliates directly control can't be sold all at once. They are actually doled out over a period of about three years. And more relevantly, if they tried to actually sell all their coins at once, it would immediately tank the price of the coin and they just wouldn't be able to do it. So there are some practical considerations that make it hard for them to directly profit from a rug pull right now.

• 36:57Casey Newton?

  All right. So you heard it here from Kevin. This is a safe and good investment and you might want to move your retirement savings over immediately.

• 37:04Kevin Roose?

  No, don't do that. But there's another way that you can make money, which is on token fees when tokens are bought and sold. So even if the Trump family never disposes of their stake in these coins, they can make a little bit of money every time a Trump coin is bought and sold. And we don't know exactly how many fees they're making on these transactions, but because of the popularity of these coins among people who like to buy and sell meme coins, a director at Coinbase recently speculated that as of Saturday, the Trump family had already made an estimated $58 million in fees just from other people buying and selling these coins.

• 37:40Casey Newton?

  I'm curious what people in the crypto industry are saying. Is this a sort of validation for them that, oh, well, even the president has a meme coin now? It's, you know, we're really off to the races with crypto in Trump 2.0?

• 37:54Kevin Roose?

  I think some people in the crypto industry see this as a good thing, right? This is more people talking about crypto, maybe a rising tide lifts all boats. But the majority of people I've talked to and heard from and seen posting on social media about this in the crypto industry are very worried about what this means. So Nick Carter, who is a Trump supporting crypto investor, called the meme coins preposterous and said that the people behind the coins were plumbing new depths of idiocy. That was a great quote. Another popular crypto podcaster, Scott Milker, called these coins a gratuitous cash grab. So there were just lots of people in the crypto industry who said, this is not how we envisioned crypto blossoming during the Trump administration.

• 38:38Kevin Roose?

  Could you please lay off the scams a little bit?

• 38:41Casey Newton?

  I mean, it's interesting to hear them say that. And yet I find myself wondering if that is the case. What kind of crypto coin is not a blatant cash grab? Are there a bunch of virtuous crypto coins out there that are just like raising money to fight climate change or something?

• 38:56Kevin Roose?

  Well, there are, but they're not the popular ones and they're never going to go viral. So, and you can't use them to bribe the president. So I don't think there's a bright future for them. But Casey, more seriously, I'm someone who believes that there is a potential that something good does come from crypto. Once all is said and done, I just think that what's happening now with the kind of open season during the Trump administration for crypto is not going to benefit the, the long term future of the industry. Because if you remember during the Biden administration, when there was this, you know, crypto crackdown and all the, you know, crypto companies were complaining about how badly they were treated. The thing that they kept saying is let us build, let us cook and we will show you how

• 39:38Kevin Roose?

  serious and transformative crypto assets could be.

• 39:42Casey Newton?

  Yes.

• 39:43Kevin Roose?

  And then the floodgates open and what happens? The president and his wife start a dang meme coin. So I just think there is this fundamental tension between the people saying this is going to be a serious and transformative application of technology to the financial industry and the people who want to use it to get rich quick.

• 39:59Casey Newton?

  Yes, also those people didn't build anything interesting over the past four years and it wasn't just for regulatory reasons.

• 40:04Kevin Roose?

  And more to that point, the people who spent the last four years telling us about all these serious and beneficial crypto applications that they were going to build tended to come from companies like Coinbase and Kraken, both of which rushed to list the Trump meme coins on their platform and profit from the interest in trading these coins. So these same companies telling us how serious they were about their plans for crypto under the new administration are also rushing to be the first to benefit from the silly meme coins that Trump and his family members are putting out.

• 40:35Casey Newton?

  Wonderful. So Kevin, I'm left asking why now has been such a big moment for these meme coins? You know, it was only last month that Haley Welch's Hauktua digital coin spiked and made a lot of money for some people, of course, before immediately losing 95% of its value. And my understanding is that part of the reason that we're seeing so many of these recently is because of something called pump.fun.

• 41:02Kevin Roose?

  Yes, I've been dying to talk about pump.fun on this show because I think it is a platform that does not get nearly enough attention as a driver of the recent interest in meme coins and speculation and essentially gambling.

• 41:16Casey Newton?

  Yeah.

• 41:16Kevin Roose?

  So what is it? Pump dot fun, it's about a year old. It's a platform that is basically makes it super easy to create and launch a new meme coin on the Solana blockchain. You know, it's been possible for years to create meme coins. Dogecoin was created years ago. That's a meme coin, but you needed a little bit of technical know-how, right? You needed to learn how to create a coin, maybe to fork an existing coin, maybe to hard fork an existing coin. And you needed to know how to code and do things like create smart contracts to govern the coin. But now with a couple of clicks on pump.fun, you can create your very own meme coin and start selling it on the open market.

• 41:56Kevin Roose?

  And as you might expect from the name pump.fun, this is primarily an entertainment platform. This is a LARP. This is essentially like a crypto carnival where the explicit goal is to drive as much attention as you can to your coin, pump up the value, and then get out before it all crashes.

• 42:13Casey Newton?

  I'm just visiting the website for the first time. And when you visit, there's a pop-up that contains, you know, a little information about how it works and some terms of service. And there's a button that you have to click to access the site. And that button says, I'm ready to pump.

• 42:27Kevin Roose?

  Yes. So they're not exactly being subtle about the fact that this is all essentially legalized gambling and market manipulation and pump and dump schemes. And it is not even masquerading as a legitimate crypto platform. And yet, this is a very popular platform and it is driving a lot of the interest in meme coins. So I'm glad we're talking about it today.

• 42:48Casey Newton?

  So what sort of things are people doing to promote their meme coins, Kevin? Because, you know, President Trump has access to the bully pulpit and he can go on network TV and tell people to buy his meme coin. But what are the sort of, you know, rank and file coiners doing?

• 43:02Kevin Roose?

  So a lot of it is just sort of what you might consider social media marketing, right? They're, they're posting on TikTok and X about this. Some of them have discords. There are sort of these collective efforts to just capture as much viral attention as they can and direct it to their coin for some amount of time to raise the price. And then, you know, as we've seen with meme stocks and things like that, once it gets a certain gravity to it, people just start piling in because they think they can time the market and basically get out before the thing crashes.

• 43:36Casey Newton?

  Right. And this is, as you say, it's becoming a form of entertainment for people who love to gamble.

• 43:41Kevin Roose?

  Yes, and in some cases, people are making lots of money. Some people are losing lots of money, probably more people losing money than making money. But Casey, I think we should illustrate a little bit of the sort of vibe of the pump.fun meme coin ecosystem.

• 43:56Casey Newton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:56Kevin Roose?

  And I want to do that by playing a game with you.

• 43:58Casey Newton?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 43:59Kevin Roose?

  So I went on pump.fun this morning and I looked up some of the leading meme coins that are being bought and sold on that platform. And then I came up with my own list of fictional meme coins. And so I want to play a game with you called meme coin or dream coin, where you take these descriptions of meme coins and guess whether they are real or fake.

• 44:18Casey Newton?

  All right, let's do it.

• 44:19Kevin Roose?

  Okay, number one, butthole coin. This is a coin marketed as the foundation of flatulent finance. Casey, meme coin or dream coin?

• 44:31Casey Newton?

  I'm gonna hope that that's a dream coin.

• 44:34Kevin Roose?

  No, that's a real meme coin. Its market cap is $40 million.

• 44:37Casey Newton?

  $40 million! That's a lot of butthole.

• 44:40Kevin Roose?

  Okay, number two. This is dad coin, a utility token powered by dad jokes. Dad coin aims to build the world's largest blockchain verified dad joke database. Casey, meme coin or dream coin?

• 44:56Casey Newton?

  That sounds real. I'm gonna go with meme coin.

• 44:59Kevin Roose?

  No, that one's fake. I made that up.

• 45:01Casey Newton?

  Oh, God.

• 45:01Kevin Roose?

  Okay, you're zero for two. Let's keep going.

• 45:03Casey Newton?

  Damn.

• 45:04Kevin Roose?

  Number three, apple dog coin. This is a coin inspired by a viral TikTok meme of a dog holding an apple in its mouth.

• 45:12Casey Newton?

  I will say meme coin.

• 45:14Kevin Roose?

  That's a real meme coin. Market cap $14 million.

• 45:17Casey Newton?

  And they said that me watching TikTok would never benefit me, but that's how I knew that that was real.

• 45:22Kevin Roose?

  Okay, next one, shogoth. This is a coin inspired by a 2023 New York Times column by Kevin Roose. I've heard of that guy about how a tentacled creature known as a shagath has become a viral meme in the AI community.

• 45:38Casey Newton?

  I'm gonna say that you couldn't think of anything else. And so you just started reading your old columns and coming up with them. So I'm gonna go with Dream Coin.

• 45:46Kevin Roose?

  No, that one is real.

• 45:47Casey Newton?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 45:49Kevin Roose?

  It has a market cap of $31 million. And I hereby, I was sort of horrified to discover that this had been inspired by my column. I apologize to anyone who has lost their retirement savings gambling on shagath coin. Please don't do that.

• 46:01Casey Newton?

  It's crazy.

• 46:02Kevin Roose?

  I had nothing to do with it for the record.

• 46:04Casey Newton?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 46:05Kevin Roose?

  Okay, so that's pump dot font in a nutshell, where everything is so strange that it might as well be made up.

• 46:12Casey Newton?

  I, Kevin, I have to say, as we've, as you've been sort of, you know, very helpfully explaining a lot of important information to me, I've been having an experience of feeling horrified.

• 46:23Kevin Roose?

  Yeah?

• 46:23Casey Newton?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Kevin Roose?

  You want to say more about that?

• 46:24Casey Newton?

  Well, you know, we've, we've mentioned on the show a few times now that it seems like vast swathes of American life are being converted into ways for people to gamble. And while, you know, in moderation, I have no issue with people gambling, I worry about this much time, attention and money going into just sort of crazy speculation.

• 46:48Kevin Roose?

  Yes, it is gambling. It is certainly one of many ways that Americans can now do essentially legalized gambling on their phones or computers. But it also strikes me as sort of the, the financialization of news, right? We are now seeing from, you know, people on TikTok to people, you know, in the White House, the thing that you can do very easily and quickly to capitalize on a surge in attention directed your way, you know, in the old days, you'd see people go viral and then they'd start to link to their, their, you know, their Patreon. But now you can do such a more direct form of capitalizing on attention by just launching your own meme coin.

• 47:29Kevin Roose?

  And in fact, after the inauguration this year, we saw something like this happen where Lorenzo Sewell, who is the Detroit pastor who prayed at Trump's inauguration, immediately after the inauguration. Made his own meme coin Lorenzo and said that all proceeds from it will support his church. So I do think we are starting to see a new kind of financialization of attention where the minute you get notable for something, the minute you people are starting to look at you, you want to launch your meme coin to be able to sort of rake in as much attention in the form of cryptocurrency as you can. I don't think that's a good thing for America.

• 48:05Casey Newton?

  I think we should go back to doing what we used to do with these news events, which was we would just create a novelty Twitter account for them. Do you remember this? Be like something, something would happen at the Oscars, you know, it's and then it's like, oh, like that thing has a Twitter account now, something to think about.

• 48:20Kevin Roose?

  There you have it. When we come back, attention, please. MSNBC's Chris Hayes is here to talk about his new book on attention.

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• 50:26Kevin Roose?

  Well, today on the show, I want to have a conversation about attention.

• 50:32Casey Newton?

  Kevin, ever since you put your phone in prison for the simple crime of being interesting, you've been fascinated by the topic of attention.

• 50:40Kevin Roose?

  Yes, I am fascinated by attention and the various ways that we direct and misdirect our attention and the various apps and services that are trying to get our attention all the time. And today on the show, we are going to have a conversation about attention. And we are going to have on Chris Hayes. Chris Hayes is the host of MSNBC's nightly news show, All In. He just wrote a book about attention called The Siren's Call: How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. It comes out next week, and I read an advanced copy. It's very good. And Chris argues that attention has become a profoundly valuable commodity in today's world. He argues that we are trapped in a system

• 51:24Kevin Roose?

  of attention gathering and maximization that we didn't construct, that we don't have a lot of choice over, and that has created a feeling of alienation among many of the people who feel their attention being pulled in ways that they maybe don't want it to be.

• 51:38Casey Newton?

  Yeah, it does feel like a condition of modern life that maybe even on most days, you will find yourself doing something and think to yourself, I don't even want to be looking at the thing I'm looking at, and yet I'm not sure how I can look away.

• 51:51Kevin Roose?

  Yes, and obviously, this is a conversation that has a lot to do with technology and the ways that social media apps and other forms of technology have found new ways to harness attention. But I'm excited to talk to Chris about this topic because he is not just a scholar and a critic of the attention economy. He is also a participant in it, just like you and I are. He is a cable news host and he is in the business of gathering people's attention. He's an attention merchant as well as someone who studies the subject. So I wanted to talk to him, not just about his diagnosis of our attention problem, but also what he personally does to harness his attention. I feel like that's an area where I have a lot of trouble and I know you do too.

• 52:30Casey Newton?

  That's right, Kevin. And in addition to all of the questions we had for Chris, he turned the tables on us and asked us for a little bit of guidance as he attempts to navigate how AI will transform our attention environment. So that wound up being kind of a fun twist.

• 52:44Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, very fun conversation with someone who I think has a lot of worthwhile thoughts about what is going on in our attention economy and how we might start to fix it. Here's the conversation.

• 52:58Kevin Roose?

  Chris Hayes, welcome to Hard Fork.

• 53:00Speaker 07

  It's great to be here.

• 53:02Casey Newton?

  So Chris, your book is all about the ways that our attention is captured, bought and sold. And a lot of the book is about tech and the role that new technology plays in determining where our attention goes. I want to start by asking, what in your view are the problems with how our attention is currently directed? And is there an ideal state of how our attention is directed?

• 53:24Speaker 07

  Well, I think the problems are probably easier. I mean, the forms of attention capitalism that we have at this moment are constantly trying to compel our attention. Like, the best example of this is the physical haptic feedback in the phones. We've all had the experience of being at a table with someone whose phone is just like

• 53:41Speaker 07

  and that physical buzzing, whether it's happening in your pocket at the table, is triggering like a deep part of your brain chemistry. That is like, oh, there's something happening. There's a predator rustling in the bushes. I gotta go check it out. So we have engineered a situation where we are, our attention's constantly being compelled against our will. In terms of what the ideal form is, I mean, look, I think

• 54:08Speaker 07

  Human beings like paying attention to all kinds of crazy stuff. And I think to the degree to which that crazy stuff can flourish and people can do it from some place of volition, that's all great. I don't feel like our experience of where we put our attention right now feels particularly volitional.

• 54:28Kevin Roose?

  You make a really interesting point early in your book about how the attention economy, this term that we so often hear used to describe things like social media platforms, is actually much broader than social media, that actually companies like Amazon are also in the attention business in a way because they are trying to direct your attention to not posts, but products. I'd argue that crypto and some of the stuff we're seeing around meme coins is also part of the attention economy. So I guess my question for you is like, if we're not happy about the role that attention and the attention economy are playing in our lives, as you say, we are not, if we're alienated in the ways that you described, like, who should we be mad at for that?

• 55:13Speaker 07

  Well, I think focusing on the platforms is probably a good place to start. I mean, I think that's the place where it's more tangible and those are the folks that are most clearly profiting off this. I mean, they nicely arrayed themselves into a neat little line at the inauguration to sort of frame themselves for our viewing pleasure. You know, all those people that were at the inauguration, the head of Google and Apple and Amazon and X, those are some of the most responsible entities for what's happening to our attention. But again, it's broader than just those companies because of the era we've entered into of the digital economy, the information age, kind of post-material economic production.

• 55:57Speaker 07

  I mean, crypto is the ultimate example of it. The meme coin is the most pure monetization of attention that I've ever seen. And it's kind of elevated up from any physical substrate. It just exists in the minds of its purchasers.

• 56:16Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, I mean, what people will sometimes say in the tech industry when they're confronted with challenges about, oh, you're weaponizing attention, you're harvesting attention, they'll, they'll try to reframe it in terms of supply and demand. And, you know, we've talked on this show and I'm sure you've also had conversations about the, the, the two sides of, of the attention market. There's obviously the, the case we made that the supply side is bad, that we should not have exploitative platforms, but I also think there's a demand side problem that we have to reckon with. How do you think about the demand side of the attention market?

• 56:48Speaker 07

  I think about it all the time. I mean, there's a, a long chapter in the book about boredom, which to me is the central seed of the demand side question, right? Why don't we want to be alone with our own thoughts? Fundamentally, that's the question. Why do we have such demand for our attention to be taken? And that I think is both a situational question, because I think different forms of living, social arrangements, institutions and technologies expand or contract our threshold for boredom, but also a very old human one. I mean, Pascal in Pensées in the 17th century says, "I have concluded that all the troubles of man stem from his inability to sit alone in his own chamber." Now, he didn't have TikTok, he didn't even have TV, he didn't have radio, and yet that

• 57:32Speaker 07

  sense of restlessness is there in the 17th century. So, part of this is the lot of being a human, sitting in this one mind we have with its whirling consciousness and the fact that we have to deal with those own thoughts. And the demand comes from that, it's speaking to something essential in us. Like, very clearly, if you gave Blaise Pascal TikTok, or the people he's writing about in the 17th century, they would have been like, "Hell yes, dude, like, give it to me."

• 58:00Kevin Roose?

  They would die.

• 58:02Speaker 07

  They would do that. They, they would stop eating, they would just be in their chamber, going through videos and never... Forget to eat and drink. 100% true.

• 58:13Casey Newton?

  It's interesting to think about the idea that human attention has always wanted to be 100% saturated. That people have always been uncomfortable, sitting alone with their own thoughts. And it is only now, because of technological innovations, that we can actually saturate it 100%. That for the first time, there now actually is an infinite supply of things to look at and to do. And maybe that's sort of at the root of the discomfort that you're writing about.

• 58:41Speaker 07

  I think that is at the root, although I would say one thing to slightly amend that, which I think is quite important. There are certain things we have that are genuinely human universal, like for instance, hunger, right? There is no human, under any social conditions, that doesn't experience it. Like you, you have to eat, you have to have calories to live. Boredom actually is not a universal human experience. And the reason we know that is because there are societies that live entirely outside of modernity. Hunter-gatherer tribes that, from all that we know, do not experience boredom. There's an anthropologist who studies Aboriginal people in Australia, who I quote in the book. And among the Wapirri people, which is their name, they don't have a word for boredom.

• 59:24Speaker 07

  And when they have to describe it, they use the English word. It's a literal import, and it's an import both as a lexeme and as an experience. And people that spend a lot of time in non-modern societies will tell you that there is a tremendous amount of sitting alone with your thoughts, sometimes together, sometimes alone. So there is something about the experience of modernity writ large that has a relationship to boredom that not all humans experience in the same way.

• 59:55Casey Newton?

  Chris, I'm wondering, I can imagine someone hearing this interview or reading your book and saying, "Well, I'm not sure that I buy the assumption that our attention is sort of more fractured and that we have shorter attention spans than, you know, at any point in human history." Because, you know, I observe, and I'm saying this as me, like when I ask people what they're listening to.

• 1:00:20Kevin Roose?

  What they're watching, people are out there listening to four hour podcasts.

• 1:00:23Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:00:24Kevin Roose?

  People are out there watching YouTube videos that are two and a half hours long. And it seems like the sort of shortening attention spans, which is the classic complaint that older people have about younger people throughout the eons, just doesn't seem to be aligned with the reality, which is that people are actually willing to sit through long and to my mind, boring things when it suits their needs. So how do you reconcile the crisis that many adults are feeling about, especially young people's attention spans with the popularity of these super long form shows and media products?

• 1:00:56Speaker 07

  I think it's a great question. I think there's a few ways to think about this. The first is that I do think it's important to distinguish what I'm going to call philosophical questions from empirical ones. And I think this is a place where things get wrapped around the axle a little bit. So what I mean by that is whether people's attention spans are getting shorter is kind of an empirical question. Whether people are getting more anxious and depressed is an empirical question. And then there's like a deeper philosophical question about what is a good life? So here's an example. If I had a friend who is spending 13 hours a day playing video games, you might say, well, that's bad for you or it's bad for your health. And maybe if you did randomized control trials, it turns out it isn't like there aren't bad health outcomes, outcomes associated with it.

• 1:01:40Speaker 07

  But if you ask me if I think he's living the good life, I don't think he is. And I'll defend that to my grave. That's not an empirical claim. That's a, that's a philosophical and spiritual one about what it means. Right? So first, I think it's important when we're diagnosing this question, a lot of stuff gets wrapped around the axle of, are you making an empirical claim about are in a technical sense, people's attention spans getting shorter? Or are you making a claim like I'm making the book is that there is a genuine and profound feeling of alienation in which we are not in control of our own minds?

• 1:02:10Speaker 07

  So I'm making the latter claim. Now, as to the specific thing about the shortening of attention spans, I love the fact that people listen to four hour podcasts. One of the cool things about what's happened to attention markets, because they do not have gatekeepers who predetermine what people will pay attention to it and things just are thrown into the marketplace to sink or swim. There's actually been discoveries of stuff people will pay attention to that no one would have greenlit before. I think the fact that podcasts exist out of algorithmic environments and through an open, old-school, open internet protocol called RSS is a central part of why you have

• 1:02:50Speaker 07

  seen the flourishing of them in these four-hour ways and actually speaks to the fact that the architecture of attentional spaces matters a tremendous amount.

• 1:03:02Casey Newton?

  Yeah, I buy that. Do you buy it, Kevin?

• 1:03:04Kevin Roose?

  I'm not sure. My explanation for the rise in popularity of four-hour-long podcasts is basically that they are not competing for the same type of attention that a very long magazine article is.

• 1:03:17Speaker 07

  Right, because it's background attention.

• 1:03:19Kevin Roose?

  It's background attention. You may be giving 10% of your attention to it while you're folding laundry or washing the dishes or driving your car.

• 1:03:26Casey Newton?

  And I have another point I would make is I think that I know for all of my favorite podcasts that I just listen to for fun, they're about the nichest things in my life. And typically, they're about the things that none of my friends or family actually want to talk to me about day to day. And I think this is inextricable from the problem that you're writing about, Chris, because the reason those podcasts are so exciting to me is part of me can't even believe that this media exists because I grew up in the 80s and 90s when I just had to sort of absorb whatever was mainstream.

• 1:03:55Speaker 07

  Mass culture.

• 1:03:56Casey Newton?

  But now, media creation is so democratized that you name the nichest thing in existence and there's a great two-hour podcast about it. So I think that's the kind of double-edged sword here, right?

• 1:04:05Speaker 07

  But I think that's, but the thing that you're identifying, I think it was true of the pre-commercial internet. I mean, that was the great thing about the internet before it got taken over by the platforms, right? So in that sense, I think that's actually a great thing about the architecture. Again, I am a partisan of the internet. I got my first internet connection at 14 and I eschewed AOL and I got a direct internet service provider. I was on surfing the web on Lynx text browser before Andreessen put out Mosaic. Like, I've been on the internet for a minute, okay? And so, all that stuff is true. I think that question too about these different forms of attention, I think it's really interesting to think about people doing more than one

• 1:04:46Speaker 07

  thing at once, which is also this kind of supply expansion. Like, I write about in the book, coming across my kid playing a video game while watching a video in a little picture and being like, "What are you doing?" And being like, don't do that. I don't like that. That does not make me feel good. And he's like, you watch TV with your phone all the time.

• 1:05:08Speaker 07

  Like, fair point, but not you.

• 1:05:10Kevin Roose?

  I mean, I can imagine another reaction that people might be having to, you know, hearing, you know, three sort of products of the, the, the media as it was constructed, you know, 10 or 20 years ago, complaining about all the kids and their attention and just saying to themselves like, these guys are just mad that people aren't paying attention to them. Right? Like, like, you don't hear, you know, Jake Paul complaining about the attention economy, right? Because he is a beneficiary of the changes.

• 1:05:35Speaker 07

  Yes, although, read an interview with Mr. Beast. I mean, it's really interesting, actually, because he, in interviews, he talks about this guy's a genius at, at hacking this. And like, he finds it oppressive, actually. He said that in interviews. And I want to be clear here. I actually think the kids are in better shape than the elders on this. I, I think, one of the things I think that happens with this concern is that it gets projected onto children obsessively. It's, I think, worse on people older. I, I think, actually, they're better at screening information. I think it's their, they, they handle it better. They're more native to it. And, and one of the points of the book is, I'm talking about myself. I'm talking about myself, my parents, like, I don't think this is a problem

• 1:06:20Speaker 07

  with the youth. I, I think this is a problem for all of us.

• 1:06:24Kevin Roose?

  So, like, what would make you feel better about your own attention? Like, what are some things that could happen that would make you say, okay, we're starting to get this problem under control?

• 1:06:33Speaker 07

  Do you mean individually for myself or collectively?

• 1:06:36Kevin Roose?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. For, for you personally, because you're sort of saying that, you know, a lot of what you're writing about is about your own experience. Yeah.

• 1:06:42Speaker 07

  I think a big, a big marker is reading books. I think, like, that, that is, to me, a real, concrete example. And I, I have forced myself to do more reading. Part of writing this book, honestly, was binding myself to the mast that made me read books. Like, I had to go back and read.

• 1:07:00Speaker 07

  Works of philosophy I hadn't touched either in years or never touched. And that's hard reading. That's the kind of reading you don't do when you leave college or grad school, where it doesn't, you're not just sitting at the beach like it's like, oh, each sentence. And that work, getting that those muscles back was really hard and invigorating. And that, that us being able to do that collectively is pretty important to me. I think actually like, again, this I will 100% to cop to sounding like a fogey. I genuinely think self governance hinges on your ability to do that.

• 1:07:33Kevin Roose?

  What about your own sort of personal tech stack? Like, how do you direct your attention? What's on your home screen? Do you use any apps or services that are sort of designed to help you focus your attention?

• 1:07:47Speaker 07

  For a while, I really, really relied on being a power user of Twitter and having different feeds and different people. And that has been shot to hell because it's just a useless. It's a useless tool for what I used to use it for, which was actually getting information. You just can't really rely on that for anymore. I'm trying to recreate a bit of that in Blue Sky with some success. The degree to which you can connect yourselves to people with actual genuine domain expertise in a given thing. That's the most valuable thing for me to seek out in the internet and to try to maximize my ability to funnel into me.

• 1:08:26Kevin Roose?

  Right. Chris, I can't let you come on this show without asking you about AI.

• 1:08:32Speaker 07

  What is that? I haven't heard of that. Are they doing something with that now?

• 1:08:35Kevin Roose?

  They're doing something. We talk about it once or twice. I can imagine two ways that someone like you could feel about the rise of AI. And they're essentially mutually exclusive. One is AI is going to be horrible for our collective attention harnessing and focusing because we're all going to be confronted every day with a slew of hyper personalized media that is generated specifically to cater to our tastes. And boy, if you thought people were addicted to their phones before, just wait till they've got their chatbots in there. Telling them that they love them and all this personalized media. And so our, our attention is going to be harder to corral than ever before.

• 1:09:16Kevin Roose?

  I can also imagine a more optimistic take that AI is going to help us with our attention because we can dispatch AI to go read all the news for us and summarize what's most important, or watch every video on TikTok and tell us what the best memes are. And we can kind of offload some of that cognitive burden to AI.

• 1:09:36Speaker 07

  I love that. I love, I love AI as like your meme servant, like.

• 1:09:40Kevin Roose?

  Yes. Honestly, this, this will be, that to me is AGI.

• 1:09:44Speaker 07

  I mean, TikTok literally is an AI meme servant. Dankest memes today. Please go retrieve for me the five dankest memes.

• 1:09:52Kevin Roose?

  But like, when you think about AI and attention, do you feel like one of those scenarios is more likely than the other?

• 1:10:00Speaker 07

  I feel totally lost on AI in the sense that I have zero

• 1:10:07Speaker 07

  trust for my own instincts of what it will be. I think the thing I think about it most is like the late 90s tech boom, where there was both a lot of genuine innovation and a lot of like ludicrous froth. And then a lot of things that people were trying to do before the technology was there.

• 1:10:26Kevin Roose?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:26Speaker 07

  What do you, wait, what do you think? What do you think?

• 1:10:28Kevin Roose?

  So I'm optimistic about this in part because I read the chapter of your book where you talk about spam and the sort of equivalence of spam in today's attention environment. And I know that compared to 10 years ago, I encounter a lot less spam in my email inbox than I used to. And that is not because of anything that I've done. That's because AI got better at filtering out spam. And so I do have some hope that.

• 1:10:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Kevin Roose?

  And we're starting to see this. I, I, I know someone who programmed a, a chat GPT task the other day to give him a message every morning of, you know, everything that Donald Trump did the day before, ranked in order of importance. And like, that kind of thing feels possible to me in a way that it did not a couple of years ago. And that could actually save us some time watching cable news, no offense.

• 1:11:14Speaker 07

  Well, we don't want that, but let me, let me ask you, can I keep asking you questions? Is that all right?

• 1:11:18Kevin Roose?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 07

  Yes. How much are you two using chat GPT in your workflow?

• 1:11:25Casey Newton?

  Constantly for everything?

• 1:11:26Speaker 07

  Every day for everything.

• 1:11:28Casey Newton?

  Really?

• 1:11:28Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:11:28Casey Newton?

  Yes.

• 1:11:29Speaker 07

  I'm not. I feel makes I just I feel a little like I'm just walking around. I'm listening to the strokes in my skinny jeans like like a just dude that just stopped and I'm I can't like it just seems I was like a new thing. I gotta go interact with a new thing. I don't want a new thing.

• 1:11:45Casey Newton?

  Wait, wait, can I say something about AI and attention, though?

• 1:11:47Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:11:47Casey Newton?

  Because, you know, Chris, you were sort of joking a few minutes ago about, you know, an AI meme servant. That is explicitly what TikTok was set up to be, right? Is we're going to look at literally everything and just based on engagement signals, we're going to serve up the things

• 1:11:59Speaker 07

  Right.

• 1:12:00Casey Newton?

  that you're most likely to enjoy. And the state of the art is already pretty good. I think one reason why TikTok got banned is we have this sense that, gosh, it's kind of spooky good at understanding what I like. So if the state of the art is that good, I truly believe that the next generation is going to get even more and more compelling. And to the extent you think that we're in an attention crisis, I don't see how AI doesn't just exacerbate that.

• 1:12:23Speaker 07

  Well, AI will create the TikToks and distribute the TikToks, and then I will use my AI servant to go watch all the TikToks for me.

• 1:12:30Casey Newton?

  Can I make another point? We've gotten to sort of very shaggy and loose in this, but I'm enjoying this.

• 1:12:34Speaker 07

  I really did hide, but I'm just curious how you guys use it.

• 1:12:37Casey Newton?

  I think we can all agree it was Kevin's fault. So you were talking earlier about books, and this is something that I share with you. Every year, I think, gosh, I wish I could read more books. And last year, the New York Times, great newspaper, put out a list of the 100 best books of the new, you know, what century, I guess?

• 1:12:54Speaker 07

  Of the 21st century.

• 1:12:55Casey Newton?

  Of the 21st century. And so my boyfriend and I, we every like day, they would release like 10 new books and we'd go through them. Oh, which ones have you read? And so I created this list and I'm like now working through it. And I've just started a 900-page book called 2666 by Roberto Bollanio. I'm about 250 pages in. It's a bit of a struggle.

• 1:13:12Speaker 07

  It is.

• 1:13:12Casey Newton?

  Part of me feels like exactly everything you said, Chris. I'm like, gosh, if if only Twitter had not destroyed my brain, I'd be sailing through this thing. But there's this other element, though, which is just that books are not as culturally relevant as they were like when I was an English major at Northwestern University. And I think one of the problems that I have trouble getting through books is because none of my friends and family are talking about any of the books that I'm reading. And I just think that speaks to the fact that like, as the years go on, the cultures evolve, the media formats change, and our attention naturally shifts, and it's less of an algorithmic thing and more of a just a cultural evolution.

• 1:13:46Speaker 07

  Part of that, I think, is probably true. And but I think there's also something happening, which is The form of things is influenced by the attentional environment they're in. So one of the things I've really been noticing, if you go back and you watch a movie from the 1970s and 1980s, they're paced so much more slowly. They are so slow. And why are they slow? They're slow because what else are you gonna do, dude? You just spent $15 or $6 or $5. You're in there, you got nowhere to be, you got nothing to do. If Robert Altman wants to take his sweet time setting up the first 20 minutes of this movie. And so we are now, because things respond to the attentional environment, everything is conditioned to move much more quickly.

• 1:14:30Speaker 07

  And so when you try to get something from outside that it feels slow. I mean, even writing this book where I was working so hard to keep people's attention, to stay present vocally in people's ears, like, it does change the way that everything gets created.

• 1:14:45Casey Newton?

  Yeah. I mean, but again, fast forward to today, watch the fourth episode of any Netflix show. They didn't need to make it. You could just delete it and move right on. You know what I mean? Sometimes I think things are still pretty slowly paced.

• 1:14:57Kevin Roose?

  Well, Chris Hayes, thank you so much for coming on. The book, The Siren's Call, is available next week, January 28th. I have read it, it's quite good, and I recommend it. Thanks so much for your time.

• 1:15:07Speaker 07

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:15:18Speaker 00

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  Hard Fork is produced by Rachel Cohn and Whitney Jones. This episode was edited by Rachel Dry and fact-checked by Ina Alvarado. Today's show was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Original music by Marian Lozano, Diane Wong, Rowan Nemisto and Dan Powell. Our executive producer is Jen Poyant. Our audience editor is Nell Galogly. Video production by Ryan Manning and Chris Schott. You can watch this full episode on YouTube at youtube.com/hardfork. Special thanks to Paula Schuman, Pui Wing Tam, Dahlia Hadad and Jeffrey Miranda. You can email us at [email protected] with the name of your new meme coin.

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