The Wirecutter Show: Kitchen Gear That Lasts a Lifetime (or Extremely Close)

Quality kitchen gear can last a lifetime — but not every pot, pan or knife is made to last.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies. It's time to put AI to work. Is your business ready? The challenge isn't getting started with AI. It's scaling beyond pilots while maintaining control of your data, governance, infrastructure, and costs. Dell AI Factory provides the integrated foundation you need to scale AI securely and efficiently with one trusted partner, Dell, AI on your terms. From idea to impact. Learn more at dell.com/yourwaytoAI. That's dell.com/yourwaytoAI.

• 0:35Kevin Roose?

  Happy holidays, everyone. We at Hard Fork are off this week. We are taking a much-needed vacation, so there won't be a new episode in your feed this week, but in the place of that, we wanted to bring you a recent episode from another podcast from The New York Times that we love, The Wirecutter Show.

• 0:50Casey Newton?

  Wait, you're on vacation this week? I've been delivering toys to all the boys and girls across the land.

• 0:55Kevin Roose?

  I thought that was you. Casey, you were the one who actually suggested this Wirecutter Show episode. What made you want to put it down our feed?

• 1:03Casey Newton?

  OK, so here's what I really liked about this episode. I love being in the kitchen. And we don't often think about the kitchen as a place where technology plays a huge role, but of course it does, Kevin. You know, these days, we do not cook with fire alone. We have gadgets, we have tools. But I'm always wanting to know, what are the actual best tools? Which are the good ones that are cheap? Which are the sort of splurges that I should make? Which ones will last a long time? And so when I found out that The Wirecutter were doing a show about that, I said, get that to me immediately, and then let's share it with all of our listeners.

• 1:33Kevin Roose?

  So this episode features Michael Sullivan. He's one of the senior staff writers on Wirecutter's kitchen team. And he basically walks through his tips and tricks for finding the best kitchen gear. If you just got some new cast iron cookware for Christmas, they will teach you how to make it last a lifetime. Or if you just got a bunch of stuff you don't like and you want to return it for some stuff you do like, maybe this will give you some ideas for some kitchen gear you might want. We will be back next week with a new episode. See you then.

• 2:00Casey Newton?

  See you then.

• 2:01Kevin Roose?

  Happy holidays.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies. It's time to put AI to work. Is your business ready? The challenge isn't getting started with AI. It's scaling beyond pilots while maintaining control of your data, governance, infrastructure, and costs. Dell AI Factory provides the integrated foundation you need to scale AI securely and efficiently with one trusted partner, Dell, AI on your terms. From idea to impact. Learn more at dell.com/yourwaytoAI. That's dell.com/yourwaytoAI.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  AI spend is growing fast, but most businesses still can't see exactly where that money is going. Ramp gives businesses visibility and control across AI providers with realtime guardrails by team and model, helping ensure spend goes to the highest ROI areas. Stop guessing where your AI spend is going. Get started with Ramp. And if you're new to Ramp, you can get $250 off at ramp.com/hardfork. Go to ramp.com/hardfork. Ramp.com/hardfork.

• 3:27Speaker 04

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• 4:03Speaker 05

  From The New York Times, you're listening to The Wirecutter Show.

• 4:08Speaker 06

  Hey, everyone. It's The Wirecutter Show. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

• 4:11Speaker 05

  I'm Christine Siriklaset.

• 4:13Speaker 07

  And I'm Rosie Guerin. And we work at Wirecutter, the product recommendation site from The New York Times.

• 4:19Speaker 06

  Each week, we bring you expert advice from our newsroom of 140 journalists who review everyday products that will make your life better.

• 4:27Speaker 05

  This episode of The Wirecutter Show is called Kitchen Gear That Lasts A Lifetime or Extremely Close.

• 4:38Speaker 07

  Hi, Podpals.

• 4:39Speaker 05

  Hey.

• 4:40Speaker 07

  Today, I want to talk to you about buying things for the long haul. Things that you might be able to, let's say, invest in on the front end, but they're going to really last. For instance, I have this glass juicer that I got from my gram. And I know, it's really sweet. And actually, I think she got it from her best friend, Ruthie. And every time I'm juicing a lemon, I'm thinking of them. And this thing is from, it's got to be from the 40s. And it's been around. It was my mom's, and now it's mine.

• 5:10Speaker 05

  That's so sweet. I love that. I actually have some things in my kitchen that my parents have passed down to me. I have a skillet and I have a saucepan that I used as a kid. And now they're in my kitchen. And I could probably pass them on to my kids, honestly.

• 5:24Speaker 06

  Man, I have like one night set that my dad gave me for graduation, but I think that might be all I'm working with.

• 5:30Speaker 07

  I feel like, honestly, today, there's all of this pressure to buy, to buy, to buy, to buy, and things feel or are more disposable. But I personally want to get better at investing in things that maybe they're not the coolest, maybe they're not the sexiest, but they're going to last me.

• 5:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, you know, the funny thing is, working at Wirecutter, you'd think that all the folks that we work with are kind of obsessed with buying like the newest, coolest thing out there. But I mean, so many people that we work with really don't buy a lot. And I've noticed that the longer you work here, the more people tend to try to just like kind of save up for really nice things that they'll use for a long time. I think there's like this feeling that it just feels bad to use something that breaks after a short period of time and then you get rid of it. And then it ends up in a landfill and you're just contributing to this bigger world problem that we're facing. And so, you know, there is actually a word for this. It's called buy it for life.

• 6:27Speaker 07

  Oh, I like that.

• 6:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:28Speaker 06

  There's a whole subreddit about this thing.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  Oh, yes. I love that subreddit.

• 6:32Speaker 06

  It's all these people asking for advice about really high-quality products that will last a lifetime. And then like a bunch of other people chime in. Honestly, I think a lot of the questions are about things that just can't last that long. I recently saw a question- About like underwear brands?

• 6:47Speaker 07

  No, no, no, no, no, no.

• 6:49Speaker 06

  You know, like you don't want those to last that long.

• 6:52Speaker 05

  You know what I do appreciate about that subreddit? It's how devoted these people are to finding quality items that will last a long time, which is what we're going to talk about today. We're going to focus on the kitchen because that's a place where you can actually buy a lot of things that will last a lifetime.

• 7:09Speaker 06

  Totally. We actually have one of Wirecutter's kitchen experts here who knows a ton about kitchen equipment and specifically what lasts and what doesn't. Michael Sullivan has been reviewing kitchen gear for close to a decade.

• 7:21Speaker 05

  That's right. Michael is incredibly knowledgeable about both old and new gear. He covers a wide range of appliances and tools like toasters and skillets and cutting boards, and he also knows a lot about maintaining gear. He's honestly written so many of our care and maintenance guides. And he also has a hobby of going out to estate sales and thrifting and specifically looking for old kitchen gear. And so he really has a great sense for what will last a long time.

• 7:50Speaker 07

  I'm excited to hear from Michael and I'm excited to figure out if there's anything in my kitchen already besides my beloved juicer that might last me a long time.

• 8:00Speaker 06

  We'll see.

• 8:01Speaker 05

  We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk with Michael Sullivan about how to build your buy it for life kitchen.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Dell Technologies. It's time to put AI to work. Is your business ready? The challenge isn't getting started with AI. It's scaling beyond pilots while maintaining control of your data, governance, infrastructure, and costs. Dell AI Factory provides the integrated foundation you need to scale AI securely and efficiently with one trusted partner, Dell, AI on your terms. From idea to impact. Learn more at dell.com/yourwaytoAI. That's dell.com/yourwaytoAI.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  AI spend is growing fast, but most businesses still can't see exactly where that money is going. Ramp gives businesses visibility and control across AI providers with real-time guardrails by team and model, helping ensure spend goes to the highest ROI areas. Stop guessing where your AI spend is going. Get started with Ramp. And if you're new to Ramp, you can get $250 off at ramp.com/hardfork. Go to ramp.com/hardfork. Ramp.com/hardfork.

• 9:25Speaker 08

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• 10:07Speaker 06

  Welcome back to The Wirecutter Show. Today's guest is Michael Sullivan, one of the kitchen experts here at Wirecutter. And in this episode, we're going to talk about pushing against this culture of disposability and what it really means to invest in so-called "buy it for life" items, specifically in the kitchen. Michael is one of Wirecutter's longtime kitchen writers. He's reviewed everything from flatware to toasters, and he's had a ton of experience with both new and old kitchen gear, and can really advise on what will last and what probably won't. Michael, welcome to the show.

• 10:40Speaker 09

  Thank you so much.

• 10:41Speaker 06

  So great to have you here. So, Michael, I used to be your editor on the kitchen team a long time ago, and I know you've reviewed all kinds of kitchen products and done some wild testing. You really try to see if this gear is durable and will last a long time.

• 10:57Speaker 05

  Can you tell Kyra and Rosie how you test drinking glasses? I love this story, and I promise it does relate to our topic.

• 11:04Speaker 09

  Sure, yeah. So I mean, one of the things I think we're always looking for with drinking glasses is like how durable they are. And so one way to test for that is to kind of like, put them in a real world setting, which is dropping them off of a counter height, so three feet, onto a marble slab. And so over the years, I've broken probably hundreds of glasses to try and find the most durable. And I'm sorry to all of my coworkers in the office on those days, because it's really not a pleasant sound. But yeah, that's kind of how I do it. And also like tap them against the edge of a counter and, you know, do various things. You also do stress tests with putting them in the freezer and taking them out and then pouring boiling water into them to try and get them to crack.

• 11:49Speaker 09

  I don't recommend that, doing that at home, although I've never had any of them break through that stress test. But certainly the drop test, that's a really telling test.

• 11:57Speaker 05

  I'm just imagining it like a Greek wedding. Like, everybody's just throwing glasses on them.

• 12:01Speaker 06

  Or just like when you're at a restaurant and somebody breaks a glass and it just goes quiet.

• 12:06Speaker 07

  One of my most memorable moments of my summer job, when I was younger, I was a cater waiter, and I was carrying a tray of champagne flutes. And there was a lip, or, you know, I got distracted or something, and there it went, in the middle of cocktail hour at somebody's wedding.

• 12:25Speaker 06

  I would quit. I'd just go home. You don't have to pay me for that.

• 12:33Speaker 06

  Well, Michael, I feel like the term "buy it for life" has been thrown around a lot. People on Reddit love that term. But I don't actually think that most of the products that we want to be forever products actually are. So I was wondering what that term really means to you, specifically with kitchen gear.

• 12:50Speaker 09

  Yeah, to me, when I think of a buy it for life item, it's something that if I take really good care of it over the course of its life and the time that I'm using it, I will hopefully never have to buy that item again. And so that includes a lot of things that aren't too complicated. They're really the things that you're going to reach for over and over again in your kitchen, like really good cookware is an example, like cast iron or tri-ply stainless steel. You know, these things, if you take good care of them, they'll last your lifetime.

• 13:19Speaker 05

  I love that. I love that, too. But the reality is not everything we buy for the kitchen is going to last forever. When you're investing in kitchen gear, how would you categorize some of these other items?

• 13:31Speaker 09

  Yeah, there's buy it for life, and then there are things that I think you will have for decades. You know, they will last a long time, but not forever. And then there are things that are absolutely not made to last, like plastic cutting boards that you'll need to replace and box graters, once they become dull. Those kinds of things that can't, I mean, you'll have to replace them eventually. Those aren't intended to last for your lifetime.

• 13:54Speaker 06

  So it's like buy it for life, buy it for decades, and buy it for now, I guess?

• 13:59Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 05

  All right, so let's get into the first category, like the things that are truly buy it for life. You just mentioned cast iron. You mentioned triply cookware. What is triply?

• 14:09Speaker 09

  So triply is, it's three layers, and it's a layer of aluminum that's sandwiched between two layers of stainless steel. And what's great about that is the aluminum heats up really quickly. It distributes heat evenly across the pan. And then stainless steel is nonreactive to like acids and things like that, and it holds on to heat really well. So it's a really great combination. And those three layers are lighter than, say, like cast iron, which is quite heavy. So if you're tossing Brussels sprouts or whatever you're tossing in your pan, it's not as heavy and cumbersome to lift. But that is a really, I mean, I have all clad pieces that are triply, I think are now roughly 15 years old.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 14:46Speaker 09

  But I know like friends and chefs that have had theirs for over 20 years or longer.

• 14:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, my grandma had all clad, and when she passed away, that all went to my aunt.

• 14:54Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 05

  I was very jealous, but.

• 14:57Speaker 07

  For triply, Michael, are you mostly speaking about pots and pans?

• 15:01Speaker 09

  Mm-hmm, yeah, like cookware. I mean, the one thing I should say, though, about triply is that you never want to put it in the dishwasher, which is probably what no one ever wants to hear.

• 15:10Speaker 05

  Boo.

• 15:11Speaker 09

  But I think if you really want your stuff to last, like you just never want to put it in the dishwasher.

• 15:15Speaker 05

  What will happen to it if you put it in the dishwasher?

• 15:17Speaker 09

  So. Not to get too in the weeds on this, but the combination of stainless steel and aluminum called a galvanic couple. And that combination of metals essentially like when introduced to acids and certain cleaning products in a dishwasher will actually cause the aluminum to corrode. So you'll actually break down and that you can see in like some older, like when I was in culinary school, we had all clad and you would see like this ring of where the aluminum was, you know, because if you look at it at an angle, you can see the layers, you can actually see the different layers and it had completely like worn down. Cause you know, they were just, those, those were maybe 30 years old and were really getting some heavy use and they were being washed in a dishwasher.

• 16:03Speaker 05

  What are some other types of kitchenware that you would consider buy it for life items?

• 16:09Speaker 09

  Cast iron, like I mentioned, enamelled cast iron.

• 16:11Speaker 05

  What's the difference there?

• 16:13Speaker 09

  The enamelled cast iron has an enamel coating on it. So it's actually easier to care for than bare cast iron, which you will need to season. Like lodge, which is what we recommend a cast iron skillet. That comes pre-seasoned, so it's ready to go, but you will need to maintain that over the course of its life. And I think a lot of people are very, myself included, very precious about our cast iron. It's like, I always tell my husband, I'm like, let me wash that. He knows now, he just like sets it aside. I'm like, that's mine, don't touch it. But I will say the one thing is if it does, like let's say a guest accidentally puts it in the dishwasher or it starts to rust because you accidentally left water in it. It's actually really forgiving and you can strip the pan again and completely start over and re-season it. So I have cast iron pieces in my kitchen that are over a hundred years old

• 16:58Speaker 09

  that I've picked up at thrift stores and stuff. And some of them were like completely corroded or like covered in gunk. And I just stripped them down and completely redid them.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  What does it mean to season a pan?

• 17:08Speaker 09

  So you're palmarizing fat onto the pan, you're baking it on.

• 17:13Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 17:13Speaker 09

  And that's what's giving it a non-stick surface essentially. Yeah, you just basically, I mean, I can, I can talk about.

• 17:19Speaker 07

  Give us the definitive instruction for how you season.

• 17:23Speaker 05

  Tell me like I'm six.

• 17:24Speaker 09

  Okay, okay. So I really, I like to use flaxseed oil. I just find that it. It's really durable once it's on there. But I do this like six or seven times if it's a new pan. Or one that I'm like, I've stripped down and I'm re-seasoning. But yeah, so you basically like rub a very small amount of oil over the whole pan, the handle, the inside, the outside, and you wipe it off like as if it looks dry. And then you invert it and put it in like a 400, 500 degree oven and bake it for like an hour. And then you turn off the oven and let it just sit in there until it's cool. And then you'll start to see, like when it's raw cast iron, it has sort of a silvery color to it. But then it'll start to turn dark brown or black, like as you do more and more layers of the seasoning. Once you do that, you're like good to go and you kind of just use it as you normally would.

• 18:07Speaker 09

  If it starts to over time, you know, it can flake off or there are areas where food's stuck to it and it rips the seasoning off, you can just re-season it. So that's what I mean by it's like, it's very forgiving.

• 18:18Speaker 07

  Okay, that's seasoning. Describe what you mean by stripping.

• 18:21Speaker 09

  So I don't know if you've ever been to a thrift store and you see like old cast iron pieces that are, have tons of gunk on them just from like years and years of cooking. The way I strip it, because I live in New York City and I don't have, like a professional would use a lie bath, probably someone who's like restoring cast iron a lot. I stick it in a bag, like a trash bag on my fire escape, which don't tell the fire department. And like spray it with Easy Off and like leave it there overnight. And then the next day, it just like strips everything off. You can also use Bar Keeper's Friend and Steel Wool and just like scrub the heck out of it. But honestly, it's very easy to just, to spray it and, and it just melts off.

• 18:59Speaker 07

  Easy Off in a bag, in a, in a garbage bag, preferably on a fire escape in New York City.

• 19:05Speaker 09

  Overnight.

• 19:05Speaker 07

  Overnight.

• 19:07Speaker 09

  Well.

• 19:07Speaker 07

  And you have a brand new pan.

• 19:08Speaker 09

  Yeah, don't tell, don't tell my neighbors. Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 07

  I'm calling 311.

• 19:12Speaker 09

  Immediately.

• 19:13Speaker 05

  I also think that the little thing for me about cast iron, because I use it a lot at home, is like, I don't think you actually have to be that precious with it.

• 19:19Speaker 09

  No, you don't.

• 19:20Speaker 05

  Some people are precious with it. It's not as finicky as people think.

• 19:23Speaker 09

  No.

• 19:23Speaker 05

  I think.

• 19:23Speaker 09

  Yeah, I agree.

• 19:24Speaker 05

  So you mentioned enamelled cast iron. So for those who aren't really familiar with that, Le Creuset is like the most popular. But I mean, we don't actually recommend that as our top pick, right?

• 19:33Speaker 09

  Yeah, we have Lodge, which is another similar product, just enamelled cast iron, which is a lot less expensive. The nice thing about them is that you never really have to worry about seasoning them. I think the biggest issue with them over their lifetime is that the bottom will get scorched a little bit. You can return it to its former glory. Which I've done many times. Not always. I mean, I think sometimes if it's really old and it's been like really abused, that might be permanent. But in a lot of cases, if you use one part bleach to three parts water and you fill your Dutch oven, leave it for a few hours or overnight, it'll bleach out that scorch. It'll bring it back to its like pale color.

• 20:14Speaker 09

  Recently discovered that if you use a magic eraser on the enamel part, like on the outside, which can get a little, you know, sometimes like if you're cooking in your kitchen, it's out on a shelf and it gets like dust and oil and gets goopy and then you bake with it, it can get a little like baked on there. But actually, a magic eraser will actually just like take it right off, which is pretty handy without damaging the enamel.

• 20:35Speaker 05

  That's amazing.

• 20:36Speaker 07

  We love a magic eraser.

• 20:37Speaker 09

  We really do. It can chip too, and that's, that's just part of it, but you know.

• 20:42Speaker 05

  I've had that happen with, with a Le Creuset and they honored the warranty and sent me, and I shipped it in and they sent me back one, so.

• 20:49Speaker 09

  Well, that's good to hear.

• 20:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:55Speaker 07

  All right, Michael, so gear, cast iron, enamel, cast iron, tri ply, stainless steel. What else are we looking at?

• 21:02Speaker 09

  Um, gosh, I think like flatware is another really, is one that could last for a long time. My parents have had there. I just texted my mom yesterday because I knew I was going to be on the podcast and I was like, how long have you had your flatware for? And she was like, it's about 40 years old at this point.

• 21:16Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 21:16Speaker 07

  Made of what material?

• 21:18Speaker 09

  That's a great question. I thought you'd never ask.

• 21:19Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 21:22Speaker 09

  So basically, if you flip over like a fork or a spoon and you'll see on the neck of the piece, you'll usually see like numbers on it and it'll say like 1810, 188, 180. Maybe you're not a nerd like me.

• 21:33Speaker 05

  Do I need a magnifying glass or like?

• 21:35Speaker 09

  No, you can, you can see it, but, but you've got to be, you've got to be looking for it. But so those numbers just tell you the amount of chromium and nickel that's in the alloy. So you generally you want 1810 or 188. There's just like not a difference between them. According to steel experts that I've spoken to, they are under the same category of alloy that would be called like type 304. So those are going to be the most durable because they have more nickel in them. So they have a better luster, they will not rust, they're going to be less likely to scratch over their lifetime and they're not, you can't bend them very easily. If it's 180, it has no nickel in it and so you could deal with like more rust spots. It's usually easier to bend.

• 22:19Speaker 09

  It's all the things that the other two are not.

• 22:22Speaker 05

  So for high-quality stainless steel flatware, you want to look for 1810 or 188?

• 22:28Speaker 09

  Eight.

• 22:29Speaker 05

  Okay, okay. And avoid the 180.

• 22:32Speaker 09

  Yeah, I mean, you know, in college, I hate 180 because it's

• 22:35Speaker 05

  Because you were in college.

• 22:35Speaker 09

  I was in college and it's fine. Yeah, but I think if you're trying to like upgrade or like you actually want something that's going to last for many, many years, those are the ones you want to look for.

• 22:45Speaker 05

  I didn't actually realize that the list of buy it for life would be so long, but after all of that, are there any other things that belong in this section?

• 22:52Speaker 09

  I think if you get a really good quality wood cutting board, that can last for your lifetime if you take care of it. It really depends on how willing you are to baby it. And by a good quality one, I mean one that's thicker. So like an inch and a half to two inches will resist warping better. But the thing with wood, these are the key things you need to know. You're going to have to oil it frequently. I think when you bring a new board into your home, you want to try to do it every two days for the first week, once a week for the first month after that, and then once a month forever after that.

• 23:30Speaker 05

  So you're really entering into a relationship with your wood cutting board?

• 23:33Speaker 09

  You are, but this is, you know, but I always say it's like, it takes like 30 seconds. It's like you put the mineral oil on a rag or a paper towel, you rub it over the thing and then you just let it

• 23:44Speaker 05

  You whisper, "I love you."

• 23:46Speaker 09

  Yeah, "I love you."

• 23:46Speaker 05

  And then you walk away.

• 23:50Speaker 09

  I mean, I also think when you're washing a wood board, you want to wash both sides or wet both sides of the board because that way the moisture will evaporate evenly across the whole board. You also want to towel dry it. And then if it doesn't have feet, you want to prop it up against the backsplash of your kitchen so that it can air dry. If it has feet, you can leave it, you know, just flat on its feet.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  And getting it wet on both sides, why is that?

• 24:14Speaker 09

  Well, because sometimes if the moisture is evaporating more on one side versus the other, that's what will cause warpage. Yeah. And feet are really good. You know, all the woodworkers I spoke to really recommended this because when you're chopping, when you're preparing dinner and there's like moisture on your counter, if it's sitting in that for hours and then you eat dinner and then you maybe wait a while to do your dishes, you know, that's a really long time for it to be just like sitting in water. So they really recommend like these feet that just like lift it up off the counter and you don't really have to worry about it so much. You don't have to be so precious.

• 24:46Speaker 06

  Okay, so, Michael, are there any last Buy It For Life items that we haven't touched on yet?

• 24:51Speaker 09

  I think another one would be metal bakeware. So I have tons of aluminum cake pans and loaf pans and all that kind of stuff at home. And I've had, I think, some of them over 20 years now, and they all look like new. Like I said, I don't wash anything in the dishwasher. Secret, I don't have a dishwasher, so it's very easy.

• 25:09Speaker 05

  Well, you live in New York City, so that's not that uncommon.

• 25:13Speaker 09

  But even if I did, these are just things I would wash by hand. You know, we recommend silicone-based coated cake pans. Those will probably not last as long because that coating will eventually wear away. But we also recommend just the bare aluminum, and those will last forever.

• 25:28Speaker 06

  Okay, so a lot of this stuff is just about taking care of it, essentially. And we have tons of guides on the site that you've written, Michael, about how to care properly for these things so they do last that long. But you don't have to write down all these notes right now because we do have extensive show notes that will link back to all these guides.

• 26:00Speaker 07

  Michael, some of this stuff, like the Le Creuset Dutch Oven, all-clad skillets, or even a really nice wood, thick wood cutting board, like we were talking about, they can get really expensive. I know we're talking about them as Buy It For Life items, but I'm curious if price always equals quality for this type of stuff. Do I have to be spending a lot of money to get this longevity?

• 26:25Speaker 09

  Not always. You know, like, yes, wood cutting boards are expensive. The boards that we recommend are all made of maple, which is a domestic wood, and that's really recommended by a lot of the experts I spoke to. And it's all made in America, which also adds to the cost of it. But cast iron can actually be really cheap. Like, it can be like, under $40 for a cast iron pan that will last your entire life. But there are also like, direct-to-consumer companies that will market their pans that are like, $300 or more. And it's the exact same thing. We've tested them in the test kitchen, side by side. They don't perform any better than the, you know, the $35, $40 Lodge pan. We've also sent these to be looked at by Ohio State University and their Materials

• 27:10Speaker 09

  Science Department. And they're still kind of in the process of doing some research on that for us. But so far, it doesn't seem like there's a difference in the materials.

• 27:18Speaker 05

  Between the $40 pan and the $300 pan? And are some of these direct-to-consumer brands, are they kind of just like, using this aura of the buy-it-for-life-ness of cast iron as like, a way to jack the price? Or like, why would people, why would anyone think that they could charge $300 for a cast iron skillet?

• 27:35Speaker 09

  I think it's this like, weird trend where like, even I'll see it like, at estate sales or thrift stores, all the cast iron has just like, skyrocketed. And it's like, what is going on? This is not an expensive material. But yeah, I think it's just that they're trying to make this sort of like, heritage brand, you know, make you feel like, it's something you can pass down for generations, which is true. But it's like, yeah, but so is the Lodge. And it's like, costs like, a fraction of that. You could buy like, a 100-year-old cast iron on like, eBay for less than what some of these new brands are trying to sell their cast iron for. So it's just like, it doesn't make any sense.

• 28:13Speaker 07

  So don't be hoodwinked into overspending on cast iron. Don't do it.

• 28:17Speaker 06

  I mean, for me, Alacryce has been on my Amazon wishlist for years now. Cough cough, if somebody wants to get that for me for Christmas, would not be mad. But I just can't afford it. Like, I feel like people my age can't afford these really nice, beautiful things. So I was wondering if you have any tips for how to find these things for better prices?

• 28:34Speaker 09

  Yeah, that's such a real concern. And I think my best advice is always to, first of all, don't feel like you have to get everything all at once, right? Like, I think we live in this culture of like, buy, buy, buy. And we feel like, oh, God, I need to have all these things. It's like, you know what? You can really just acquire things slowly. Like, for instance, my All-Clad, I have a full set of All-Clad, but I just bought it piece by piece over several years. But now I will never have to buy it again. You know, and I like, I love to look at it hanging on the wall and being like, ah, I'll never have to worry about buying that ever again in my life. But, you know, it does take time, so you just have to be patient. But I do think, looking at estate sales, I think looking at thrift stores, you can find really great deals on cast iron especially, and enamelled Dutch ovens.

• 29:18Speaker 09

  You can also, if you look for certified refurbished appliances, those are another really good way to get marked down in price for a really good quality product, yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 05

  Like on eBay?

• 29:29Speaker 09

  As long as it's certified through the company. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 07

  What about people who feel icky about the idea of buying used kitchen gear? What do you say?

• 29:40Speaker 09

  OK, well, I always say, when you go to a restaurant and you sit down to eat, everyone has eaten off those plates and that flatware, right? Yeah. So I don't see the difference. I think using these items is sustainable and they're incredible quality. And there's no reason why I feel like I need to pay more for something new when it works just as well.

• 30:03Speaker 05

  I love that. So if people are interested in kind of investing in their kitchen in a buy it for life way, kind of taking an approach where they're going to buy it once and use it for decades, the places to really focus are on some of the cookware that they can buy. So like, whether that's tri-ply stainless steel cookware, whether that's like a Dutch oven, an enamelled Dutch oven, cast iron, wooden cutting boards, silverware, flatware, bakeware, these are great places to focus their energy. You don't always have to spend like, top dollar to get these things, especially if you're willing to look for deals, or just like, be patient and buy over time. We're going to take a quick break. And then when we come back, we're going to talk with Michael about things that you shouldn't expect to last a lifetime.

• 30:48Speaker 05

  Manage your expectations. We'll be right back.

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• 32:46Speaker 06

  Welcome back to The Wirecutter Show. Today, we're talking with Wirecutter's kitchen writer, Michael Sullivan, about how to invest in great durable gear for your kitchen. Before the break, we talked with Michael about the gear that you can expect to last a lifetime if you take care of it. And now, we're going to get into all the rest.

• 33:04Speaker 05

  Michael, if we're moving into this second category you mentioned earlier, which is the, all the kitchen stuff that you can buy that might last decades, what would you consider to be those items?

• 33:15Speaker 09

  Yeah, I think those things tend to be appliances that are pretty simple in their function. So like a stand mixer, like a KitchenAid stand mixer, or a Cuisinart food processor. A food processor, it's just like a pulse or on/off. It was not too complicated, you know, and like with a blender, if you're spending upwards of usually around like $200 and up, you start getting like a much better motor that's that can handle a lot more. And, you know, you want to look for ones with a blender jar that is slightly tapered, so it creates a better vortex. These are going to last you a really long time. And of course, it depends on how much you're using these things too, right? Like you could get tons of use out of it if you're not using it as much. If you're,

• 33:59Speaker 09

  you know, if you're making nut butters and you're really using that machine, then it maybe over time won't last as long. I see blenders and I see food processors all the time at estate sales. In fact, I was just at one this weekend. It was a Cuisinart, I think from like the early 80s. The jar was a little discolored, but like otherwise, that thing was still in working order.

• 34:20Speaker 05

  And it kind of probably looks like the new ones. Like the, the design hasn't changed that much over the years.

• 34:25Speaker 09

  Yeah, I think it was like a tan color. But yeah, those are things that are, will last you a really long time. Also, I think worth the investment, you know, and then other things too, like knives, which I think those can last a lifetime. I think my, my parents have had their knives for, they were a wedding gift and they've been married over 50 years now.

• 34:41Speaker 05

  How though?

• 34:43Speaker 09

  Have they been married 50 years now?

• 34:45Speaker 05

  That is a different podcast. Go to Modern Love for that. I just feel like I don't, I mean, I try to sharpen mine consistently, but it still just feels like I'm gonna, I'm at their, the end of their lifespan and it's only been maybe five years. So I don't, I don't know. How do you make them last for 50?

• 35:01Speaker 09

  Yeah, I mean, I think you have to start out with like a good quality knife. And we recommend high carbon steel, which takes an edge really well, can stay sharp for a long time, won't be prone to rusting. You don't ever want to put them in the dishwasher.

• 35:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 09

  That's, you know.

• 35:15Speaker 06

  It's a common theme here.

• 35:17Speaker 09

  Yeah, I think listeners are not going to like anything I have to say. But yeah, the banging around in the dishwasher can, you know, damage the knife blade. Also, you want to keep them on like a knife strip on the wall, or if you're keeping them in the drawer, don't just like keep them loose in the drawer. That's not only dangerous, but all that banging around, you can chip the blade, you can dull the knives faster.

• 35:38Speaker 06

  What about glassware? Does that belong in this category?

• 35:42Speaker 09

  Glassware is something that can last for decades, particularly if it is tempered glassware. That just means that it has been heat treated to make it stronger. And so it's actually such a fascinating process, which I will nerd out on for one second. But it basically like with tempered glassware, you, the glass is force cooled from the outside. And so the center of the glass is then cooling more slowly than the outside because it's got this air blasting on it. And so that puts the center into tension with the outside, but it's balanced by compression. The atoms in the center of a tempered glass are actually like trying to pull themselves apart, but it can't because it's balanced by that compression and tension, right? That's what makes it so strong when you drop it and doesn't break.

• 36:25Speaker 09

  I mean, it can break, it just is, you know, I've dropped some tempered glasses 20 times onto marble and it didn't break.

• 36:32Speaker 06

  I've never dropped a glass that didn't break.

• 36:34Speaker 07

  I don't think I've ever had a nice glass. Well, that's how you know you've never touched tempered glass in your life.

• 36:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 05

  Right now, what are some of our picks? We've always had DuraLex as a tempered glass that we like, which is like super classic. What are some of the other ones we love?

• 36:47Speaker 09

  Kaler is another one. That's actually was kind of a surprise one where it actually outlasted the DuraLex in the most recent tests that I did. That was the one that I dropped 20 times and it didn't break. I did not, though, put it back on the shelf.

• 37:01Speaker 09

  That one will not be used anymore once I do the drop test. Because little nicks, like you're doing damage to the glass even though you can't necessarily see it with your, with the naked eye. You know, once anything gets into that tensile area in the center of the glass, that's when it breaks. The glass will break. But the cool thing about tempered glass, it's actually known as safety glass. And it's what's used in side and rear windows of cars. Because when it breaks, it breaks into little cube shaped pieces versus like really jagged, sharp shards. And, you know, of course, you could still cut yourself, but like, they're not as threatening as like a really jagged, sharp piece of soda lime glass. Yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 06

  So, Michael, we're going to touch on the third and final category, which is items that you should probably set lower expectations for. When it comes to kitchen gear, what are things that you shouldn't expect to last a lifetime?

• 37:51Speaker 09

  Yeah. A big one is nonstick cookware. Once that coating wears down, you have to replace all of your pots and pans again. And when you think about it, there's not really a reason why you need all of your pans to be nonstick. It's great to have one for like scrambled eggs, or, you know, your fish that you're cooking. But you don't need like a stock pot to be nonstick, right? You're just going to have to replace it over and over and over again throughout your lifetime. So, yeah, that one's tricky. And I think too, like, you can't put it in the dishwasher. You can't use it over high heat because it starts to break down.

• 38:24Speaker 06

  Trend here.

• 38:25Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 06

  And how do you know it's time to actually replace your nonstick? What are the indicators?

• 38:34Speaker 09

  I mean, I think you'll know. Your food just starts sticking all the time.

• 38:37Speaker 06

  Does it look like, is there like a visual?

• 38:38Speaker 09

  Yeah, it'll be worn down. The PTFE coating has started to wear off, and then it's time to replace it.

• 38:45Speaker 06

  You also mentioned a little bit earlier in the show how, like, for decades, items might be items that don't have too many buttons, maybe they're not heating a lot of stuff. So is there like a category of stuff that, like, if you do have a machine that's always like a, like an electric kettle, I guess? Like, it has a bunch of buttons, not a really long lifespan, I'm guessing?

• 39:01Speaker 09

  Yeah. For some reason, you know, electric kettles are just so unreliable across the board. So like, even the high end ones, the more expensive ones that have variable temperature controls, that you can set the temperature that you want it to heat the water to. Those actually tend to Fail maybe more often than ones that are pretty simple, that just like on off boil the water. But they are all kind of prone to failing at some point. They're they don't last for a really long time. And we've actually sent those to Ohio State University, to the material science department there. And they looked at them, took them apart. And it seems like they're all pretty much the same inside. There's not a huge difference in quality between the high end and the low end. Unfortunately, that's not one that's going to last too long.

• 39:47Speaker 05

  What about toasters, Michael? I know you've done a lot of research on toasters.

• 39:51Speaker 09

  Yeah, so a few years ago, I was sort of thinking about how my elders will often say, they don't make things like they used to. And I was sort of like, wait, but that might be true with toasters. And if it is, I want to know why that is. And so I had this idea to send vintage toasters dating back to 1918 through like 1930 to the material science department at Ohio State University. Shout out to Professor Elvin Beach, who is really gracious and helped us with this. And his students helped us analyze all of these toasters. Basically, I sent those vintage ones and I sent our PICs, which is a cuisine art and brevle model. And they did comparative analysis on both. They scanned the metals and all the heating elements to compare them.

• 40:34Speaker 09

  The big takeaway was that the older toasters were more durable, the heating elements. The modern ones are more brittle. They're a little bit more delicate, more prone to failure. And we also learned that, again, similar to what we were talking about with the electric kettles, the inside is not that drastically different in the cheap $30 toaster versus the $80 toaster of the modern ones I'm talking about. Really, what you're paying for when you buy an expensive toaster is like if it has lots of bells and whistles, you're paying for that. You're paying for more complicated circuitry. You're paying for like if it's stainless steel exterior, the housing, that's going to cost a lot more money. So that's really where your money is going. It won't necessarily last longer than the cheaper toaster.

• 41:15Speaker 05

  And how long should someone expect a modern toaster to last?

• 41:19Speaker 09

  It's hard to say because again, it always depends on how much someone's using something. But I would say like five to 10 years. It also depends on your climate. Like if you live in a really humid climate, that's bad for the heating elements. They can corrode faster. If you toast a lot of frozen bagels or waffles, the moisture from that is also really bad for the heating elements. Not to say that you can't use it. It's just that contributes to the corrosion over time.

• 41:42Speaker 05

  So what I'm hearing is if you want a toaster that will last longer than a decade, you need to find one from like 1910 or something.

• 41:48Speaker 09

  Well, I don't know. You know, this is like a fun fact, but way back like over 100 years ago, those toasters, we didn't have wall outlets, right? We only had, when we first had electricity, you just had the socket. So all of the toasters, you would screw them into the light socket in your home. It's wild. Yeah, there's so many beautiful ones and like toaster collectors, you know, are like pretty serious about.

• 42:09Speaker 06

  Oh, because I know about toaster collectors. This is news to me.

• 42:13Speaker 05

  I'm sure there's some kind of convention somewhere in this country.

• 42:16Speaker 09

  Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 06

  Okay, well, Michael, we usually ask our guests one final question. So what was the last thing that you bought that you really loved?

• 42:27Speaker 09

  I think just this last weekend, I got this very cool bottle opener, which is a brass handled bottle opener and it has a knight in armor on the end of the handle.

• 42:37Speaker 06

  Ooh.

• 42:38Speaker 09

  I love it so much.

• 42:39Speaker 06

  Where'd you get it?

• 42:40Speaker 09

  I got it at a state sale. Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 06

  Sounds like it.

• 42:42Speaker 07

  Can we make this a two-part question? Because I want to know also, what is your favorite heirloom item in your kitchen?

• 42:52Speaker 09

  Ooh, that's so hard. I like so many things.

• 42:58Speaker 09

  Well, I guess my great-grandmother's ravioli cutter, that's like solid brass. That's like so cool to me to have that.

• 43:04Speaker 07

  What shape is it in?

• 43:05Speaker 09

  It's perfect shape and I've never done anything to it. I just use it and then wipe it clean and put it away. And that thing is just like still going strong.

• 43:14Speaker 07

  That's special. That's really cool.

• 43:16Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 07

  Well, thanks, Michael.

• 43:18Speaker 09

  Thank you all.

• 43:18Speaker 07

  Thanks so much for joining us.

• 43:25Speaker 05

  Rosie, Kyra, I feel like that was some real info that Michael just shared with us.

• 43:30Speaker 07

  I learned so much.

• 43:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I think that the glassware, the atoms being trapped, that was like the plot line of a Marvel movie for me.

• 43:37Speaker 06

  Unreal.

• 43:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:38Speaker 07

  It is. It's like the profession of a Marvel villain.

• 43:41Speaker 06

  Yeah. I didn't know that there were glasses that wouldn't break when you dropped them, also.

• 43:45Speaker 07

  I didn't either. I've never dropped a glass that didn't break.

• 43:48Speaker 05

  You've never had someone approach you at a mall and been like, this is like unbreakable glass? And then he dropped it and it broke?

• 43:54Speaker 07

  What's a mall?

• 43:56Speaker 05

  This is a different, it's a generational divide, I guess.

• 43:58Speaker 07

  Just kidding, I love the mall. One of the things I will take away, honestly, and really take to heart, is that the things that I have been putting in my dishwasher, I really probably shouldn't put in my dishwasher.

• 44:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, there's so much heat in a dishwasher, it just breaks stuff down.

• 44:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 44:13Speaker 05

  Real quickly.

• 44:13Speaker 06

  I don't, well, I don't have a dishwasher, so I was good on that one.

• 44:16Speaker 07

  There you go.

• 44:17Speaker 06

  I think my biggest takeaway was I do have cast iron, skillets, and I thought that I was both seasoning and cleaning them correctly, and it turns out that I am not. I did not realize what seasoning actually meant, so I'm gonna go home and do that today.

• 44:32Speaker 05

  For me, my takeaway is that I am going to just start following Michael around to all the estate sales, whether he wants me to or not. No, just joking, Michael. But I also think that I'm going to just keep lower expectations for the toaster that I have and the electric kettle that I have, because they're probably just not gonna last as long as I want them to.

• 44:52Speaker 07

  Bonus takeaway, if you have a beautiful, perhaps maple, cutting board, you gotta take good care of the baby.

• 45:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, like just a honeymoon phase with your cutting board.

• 45:03Speaker 05

  Yep. Lot of, lot of love.

• 45:05Speaker 06

  Lot of time.

• 45:06Speaker 07

  Lot of tenderness. Well, that's it for us this week. If you want to find out more about Wirecutter's coverage, or if you want to check out any of the products Michael recommended today, go to nytimes.com/wirecutter, or you can find links in our show notes. And if you want to check out some footage of Michael in his kitchen, some cheeky behind the scenes of his vintage wares, follow us on Instagram at @wirecutter. Kyra, Christine.

• 45:34Speaker 06

  See ya.

• 45:35Speaker 05

  Bye. Here's what's coming up next week on The Wirecutter Show. For earbuds, I love Sony and their names, I'm telling you. The WF1000 XM5. I know you're gonna remember that for the rest of your lives. Oh, sure, the XM5. Make sure you're following the show on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss it. The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Garan and produced by Abigail Keel, editing by Abigail Keel, engineering support from Matty Mazziallo and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Bah Etoop, and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher and interim general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief.

• 46:21Speaker 05

  I'm Christine Seer-Clessett. I'm Kyla Blackwell.

• 46:24Speaker 07

  And I'm Rosie Garan.

• 46:25Speaker 05

  Thanks for listening.

• 46:33Speaker 07

  That was beautiful in every single way. Okay, let's go eat. Okay.

• 46:42Speaker 03

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