Vince Gilligan & Rhea Seehorn

Vince Gilligan and cast of PLURIBUS including BETTER CALL SAUL's brilliant Rhea Seehorn gather with Josh to pull the curtain back on the new critically acclaimed show. UPCOMING EVENTS Brendan Fraser 11/18 in NYC -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Walker Scobell 12/19 in NYC -- ⁠Tickets here⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. This episode, let me introduce you to your new television obsession. We are talking Pluribus with the cast, Rhea Seehorn, and the creator, the one and only, Vince Gilligan. Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of the podcast. Whether you are enjoying this via YouTube, Spotify, however you're enjoying the pod, I appreciate you guys. Thanks as always for tuning in. So thrilled to share this episode. Vince Gilligan, never been on the show, such a fan of his work, how can I not be? From The X-Files, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, and now Pluribus, which, if you know, you know, the reviews are in this show. I feel very justified because I got a chance to watch some episodes of this very early on and I was like, this is awesome.

• 1:52Josh Horowitz?

  Everyone's gonna love this, right? Sure enough, everybody loves it. This is a conversation we recorded way back when in October, around New York Comic Con. More on that in a second. First, I want to just tell folks about other things cooking in the Happy Sad Confused universe. As always, check out our Patreon. That's where you get all the early access, discount codes, merch, all that cool stuff. Patreon.com/happysadconfused. And we do have a lot going on, including events with Brendan Fraser next week, first time guest on the podcast. We are screening his new film Rental Family, which is so sweet, delightful Brendan, fantastic in it. And I'm so excited to chat about his entire career. That's gonna be really special. And

• 2:37Josh Horowitz?

  tickets are still available. If you're in New York next week, check it out. All the information, as always, is in the show notes. And then a little later on, in a few weeks in December, if you have a Percy Jackson fan in your life, this one's for you. Walker Scobell is gonna be chatting with me. I've done a few events and conversations with Walker. And finally, I get him one on one for the new season of Percy Jackson. This is gonna be a big one. Tickets are selling fast at the 92nd Street Y. So get your tickets now if you can. Again, the information is in the show notes. More events are coming up. I just can't announce them yet, but really cool stuff. Patreon.com/happysadconfused. Your one stop shopping for everything that I do. Okay, a little bit more context, and

• 3:21Josh Horowitz?

  then I'll dive into, I'll let you guys dive into this conversation. As I said, we recorded this back at New York Comic Con. It was actually a special screening of the first episode of Pluribus, which is the new series on Apple TV+. It is out in the world now. We screened the first episode early for these fans, and then we surprised them with three of the cast members of Pluribus, including the epically amazing Rhea Sehorn. You know her and love her from her work in Better Call Saul. And this show is really formed around her by Vince Gilligan, coming off of Better Call Saul as a vehicle for her. And she's just, as you would expect, amazing in it. You don't need to know much about the show. It's essentially,

• 4:01Josh Horowitz?

  it's a, it's a high concept premise, a little bit back to Vince's X-Files roots in that it kind of feels like a Twilight Zone premise, where Carol, this author that Rhea plays, is Turns out to be kind of one of the last human beings left on Earth in a way after a bit of a invasion from another species. So yes, there is a big sci-fi element to this, but it is also very dramatic, very funny, very quirky. In other words, all the Vince Gilligan, you know, sensibilities come to play here. I immediately got hooked. This episode's probably best consumed after you see the first episode of the show. Not

• 4:45Josh Horowitz?

  that we're not really spoiling anything too much coming up, but since this is a deep dive into the show, best to enjoy it that way. And Vince, as you'll hear and see, just like the sweetest, smartest, most interesting guy. And just to dive into his brain a little bit and see how he makes what he makes, a lot of fun. So anyway, without any further ado, I'm going to toss to myself, as I said, this was one of our live events at a theater in New York City before a audience who got a chance to see the first episode of Puribus. Check it out on Apple TV plus and enjoy my conversation with Vince, with Rea, with

• 5:24Josh Horowitz?

  two other fantastic actors from Puribus. And check out the show. Highly recommended. Enjoy. Give it up for this amazing show, guys, from the mind of Vince Gilligan. Come on. Did I not promise something special? This show so delivers. I've gotten a sneak peek of stuff to come afterwards. It just gets better and better. You guys are in for a treat and you're in for a treat tonight, too, because you walked into not only the special advanced screening of Puribus, but also my podcast, You're Inside Happy, Set Confused. I'm Josh Horowitz and I'm so thrilled. I'm going to be welcoming some amazing actors and amazing creative minds tonight to dive into the world of Puribus. I will say, you guys, like I said, you're kind of the first to see this. So don't spread the spoilers

• 6:09Josh Horowitz?

  around, guys. Don't spill the secrets of Puribus. Okay. Do I have your promise? Yes? Okay. Please give a warm welcome to these amazing actors. To Miriam Shore. Miriam, come on out. To Carolina Wiedra. Carolina, come on out. To Ray Seehorn. Ray Seehorn, everybody.

• 6:33Josh Horowitz?

  And we can't do this without Mr. Vince Gilligan. Vince, come on out.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 6:46Josh Horowitz?

  That was nice. That's a good start.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, that was a great start.

• 6:50Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations, guys. This show has been very secretive. Nobody knows anything about this show. Now they start to know about this show. Was that part of the design? Vince, did you want to keep this under wraps very specifically to kind of maintain the surprise for an audience?

• 7:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, very much so. And Josh, thank you for what you said. Thank you, guys, for your discretion. I like it. My favorite times I've ever seen a movie or a TV show, and I have all these great memories of times where I went into something completely cold. I remember one time I was gonna go see a Clint Eastwood movie called White Hunter, Black Heart, and I get to the theater in Richmond, Virginia, and instead, they say, "Oh, we got a surprise. We're not showing the movie you paid to see," you know. But, and I'm all, "God damn it." And then it was Miller's Crossing, which I knew nothing about. A great movie. So, stuff like that. I love, and I tend to like things to be spoiler-free. So, again, thank you,

• 7:50Speaker 04

  guys, for your discretion, as far as not, you know, posting the whole totality of this thing on the internet. I appreciate, we all appreciate that very much.

• 7:59Josh Horowitz?

  It is a bit of a flex, I will say, that you're able to kind of like market a show just on Ray, on Vince, and a name, Pluribus. That means like nothing to anybody on the planet, right?

• 8:11Speaker 04

  We're all Americans.

• 8:12Josh Horowitz?

  Pluribus has a huge following.

• 8:13Speaker 04

  We should not eat Pluribus on them. We're all Americans.

• 8:18Josh Horowitz?

  So, was there a long list of titles? Was it always this title?

• 8:22Speaker 04

  It was the hardest damn thing coming up with a title for this. It took us two years. This is the hardest single, longest titling, just, we were in a title desert for over two, two or three years trying to figure out.

• 8:36Speaker 05

  Is that true? More Than Better, Cost All, or Breaking Bad?

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Better Call Saul, this guy was about the easiest one ever.

• 8:46Josh Horowitz?

  Have you seen Breaking Bad?

• 8:47Speaker 05

  What about Breaking Bad?

• 8:48Speaker 04

  Breaking Bad came pretty quick and uh, cause I, it's a, it's an old expression, uh, growing up in, in, as you did, we both grew up in Virginia.

• 8:57Speaker 05

  I know, but I never heard.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  You never heard Breaking Bad?

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Did you guys hear that? No, I never heard that.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  Well, the, uh.

• 9:03Speaker 06

  I think you made this up.

• 9:04Speaker 04

  No, well, Zach Van Amberg and Jamie Erlich, who are executives at Sony, who are now our bosses at Apple TV Plus. They, they said, uh, the same thing. They said, what, what the hell's Breaking Bad? And I said, what's an old southern expression? It means to, to raise hell. Like, ah, I really, uh, you know, I, I really broke bad last night. I was down at the, at the bar and I drank seven whiskies and then I wound up in the back of a cop car. I really, I was just, I really broke bad. And I thought everybody knew that and they said, no. And, and, uh, but, uh, you know, they said, we, I think you need a better title. But, uh, we, we never, and then they never, um, uh, pressed me on it after that. Cause, you know, but, uh, that one came pretty early in the process.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  Such a great title.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Breaking Bad or?

• 9:50Speaker 05

  Pluribus Uno. Breaking Bad, so.

• 9:53Josh Horowitz?

  Three for three. Better Call Saul. They're all great.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  Wow. That, that one was pretty easy.

• 9:57Speaker 05

  But you're, being a Latin student is why you wanted Pluribus, right?

• 10:02Speaker 04

  We had, we had.

• 10:03Josh Horowitz?

  To get the Latin audience.

• 10:03Speaker 05

  He just told me he took Latin, uh, last night. So that's why I'm asking.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  We had a list of, yes, it's a five years old.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  How about the Latin students?

• 10:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's give it up for the Latin students. But I, uh, we had a list of, uh, nearly a hundred, maybe over a hundred titles. The worst, the worst one of all, I can tell you was, uh,

• 10:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Be Kind Remind. Yeah. That was the shittiest one of all.

• 10:29Josh Horowitz?

  It got a lot.

• 10:30Speaker 05

  So sorry to hear about it. For our show. For our, be. Would you, yeah. Would you like Be Kind Remind?

• 10:35Josh Horowitz?

  Would you have accepted the offer, Carolina, to be kind?

• 10:38Speaker 05

  That'd be a hard one. Yeah. Would you try to get out of your contract?

• 10:44Josh Horowitz?

  Please, anybody signs up for Untitled Vince Gilligan Project. It doesn't matter, guys.

• 10:48Speaker 06

  It does not matter. Very true.

• 10:57Speaker 00

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• 11:28Speaker 07

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• 12:00Josh Horowitz?

  All right, so talk to me a little bit, Ray. When did you know that this was cooking? At what point does...

• 12:06Speaker 05

  We were wrapping up Better... Well, we had wrapped Better Call Saul shooting. And I had gone back to Los Angeles. They're still doing Post. And I'm very fortunate that some people wanted to meet with me to talk to me about doing other shows and stuff. And they were all lovely and the scripts were lovely. But I just thought like, I mean, I hope my writers and showrunners and directors and producers know that I would follow them anywhere. I would do whatever they wanted to do. I'll do like five lines in the background. Part of that is the scripts that you might imagine they're, you know, they're the best you can get. But it's also the environment that they surround you with. Everyone at their A-game.

• 12:50Speaker 05

  Props, greenery, sound. Like anybody, you could pull aside and talk to them for five hours and learn something, learn a lot. Then this third thing, third rail, I would say, is...

• 13:06Speaker 05

  Whatever you guys do, whatever you do or aspire to do, if someone said, I'm gonna give you a challenge, it's gonna be something that's gonna push you, that's gonna be one of the hardest things you've ever done, but you'll get better if you try. And then I tell you, when you go to the workspace that you're gonna do this in, an office, a set, whatever, I wanna give you 300 people that are like, you're gonna do it, Ray. You're the person that can handle this. You're the person that's gonna soar. I will not let you fall. That's what Vince employs around you. And so I was kinda like, is there a way to stay on this set? So I started calling all of them, and I called all of my writers and my producers

• 13:51Speaker 05

  and directors. And when I got to Vince and Peter, because you guys were together, because you were doing post, right? You were doing, you were in the same room. I know. You were together when I called.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  When you called, I'm sorry, when I gave you the script?

• 14:04Speaker 05

  To ask, yeah, to ask like, hey, I just wanna be on your shows. Hey. And then Peter said, I would love to work with you. Absolutely. But I really think Vince needs to say something.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  Right. You know, and I had, I had told Melissa Bernstein, her wonderful executive producer, I said, can you kinda keep, not like a spy or something, but can you kinda keep tabs on Ray as the show is wrapping up? Please tell her she's about to sign a big deal, because I, I don't wanna show her the script, because you read, I didn't really pitch it to you, just read, I'm sorry, I keep, it sounds like I'm beatboxing or something. You're better talking into this.

• 14:44Speaker 05

  You're doing great. It's really music. We're about to win American Idol, is what I want you to know.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  But I wanted you to read the script, because I'm a better writer than I'm a talker. But I did, it takes the time it takes to get it, you know, you only get one first read. But then in the meantime, I told, I'd ask Melissa, you know, you know, you're talking to Ray a lot. If you hear she's gonna sign, she's leaning toward taking another job, please let me know. So that's, that's how I remember it. And then you, and then when you read it, you were out, you were in the boonies somewhere without cell service, right?

• 15:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I didn't have it. I then called, uh, Peter and Vince and they were together and I was like, hey, I should go without saying that I want to work with you guys, no matter what you do. But just in case it doesn't go without saying, I want to say, and Peter said, I totally want to work with you. I have stuff for you, but I really think, Peter Gold, I really think Vince needs to say something. And I was like, what? What's going on? And then Vince said, I'm a really bad impressionist, but you know, people do impressions of you, right?

• 15:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Brian Cranston does one that.

• 15:50Speaker 05

  Does he do a good one?

• 15:51Speaker 04

  Highly offensive.

• 15:52Speaker 05

  Bob's, Bob's is good. A lot of people do good ones.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  We like bad ones though, Ray. Come on.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  Do you guys have a good one of him? I don't think I can do one, no.

• 16:00Speaker 06

  I don't think I can do it either.

• 16:01Speaker 05

  No. Okay. Okay. Here's my shitty one. He goes, I wrote something for you if you're interested.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  Vince, is that you, Vince? That, that's even more offensive than Brian's.

• 16:15Speaker 04

  Brian's is all like, uh, Slim Pickens, like, well, I don't know.

• 16:20Speaker 05

  Oh, wow. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. I don't think you're that southern.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  I'm just joking. That's adorable.

• 16:25Speaker 05

  But there's a lot of humility. And I was like, if you're interested, what are you talking about? Like, of course I'm interested. So yeah, he just said, I'm, I wrote something for you if you're interested. And I said, then yes, I'll do that. Uh, when are we doing it? I'm telling everybody else, no. And he's like, well, I'm not ready to give you the script. And I said, I don't care. I don't care. Whatever you want, whatever you want to do, I'm on, I'm on board. Whatever spaceship he's building, I'm getting in. And I feel like his fans feel that way.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  Are we getting a spaceship? Did you just spoil?

• 16:51Speaker 05

  That's not a spoiler. That's not a spoiler. Yeah. Not a spoiler, but since he was in a spaceship, we, it's all, it's, uh, did you see Pigs in Space, the Muppet thing?

• 16:59Speaker 04

  My favorite.

• 16:59Speaker 05

  It's, it's a lot like that.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yep. Yep. Sorry. Spoiler.

• 17:04Speaker 08

  Yeah, but I feel like if you ever, if you thought Vince was a genius, which we all do, then when the fact that he created a show for Ray makes you go, oh, yeah, I was right. He's a genius. Cause that's who I want to see.

• 17:15Josh Horowitz?

  So you guys are new.

• 17:16Speaker 08

  Love you.

• 17:17Josh Horowitz?

  You guys are new to the Vince family. Tell me, how does the script read? How does the log line read? Like, did you know what you were getting into right from the start? Or, or what?

• 17:27Speaker 08

  I didn't know. I got a secret audition of us just like a scene that was going to be something like, but you didn't, like I didn't. They had fake sides? Yeah, they were fake sides. Yeah, but I knew, I weirdly knew, like, I got fake sides. What does that mean? What does that mean? They were like, we don't know. We don't know about her. Give her fake sides. But I knew what you wanted from, it was so clear. The writing was still great. And, um, and then when I read the actual script, when I got, I didn't care. I was like, of course I'm going to be in whatever Vince Gilligan does. But then I read the script and I felt like, um, that Vince had crawled inside my weird head and said like, I'm going to write the show for her. Look at all that weird stuff she's thinking about. Let me put that in a show and then put Ray in it. Uh, so I was like, this is the show I want to watch. Thanks for writing it and thanks for putting me in it.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Can you, can you tell them what you said to Chris Carter years ago?

• 18:15Speaker 08

  So embarrassing. Oh, yes. I was, I was doing one of those. She wanted to be on X-Files. Of course I wanted to be on the X-Files.

• 18:22Speaker 04

  I only learned this two nights ago.

• 18:24Speaker 08

  Of course I wanted to be on the X-Files. Carolino lines. She did a Carolina line to Chris. No, I said, I, I was doing one of the many failed sitcoms that no one's ever seen except my mom. And, um, and she loved them. But, uh, and I saw Chris Carter on the lot and I love the X-Files. So I went up to him and I was like, oh, Chris, just, I just, I'd do any, I would bite the head off a chicken to be on that show. And he was just like back. That's what she said. Yeah, I said it too. And he backed away slowly. Yeah. Weirdly, he didn't write me a role where I got to bite the head off a chicken. That feels like the X-Files, right? But no, yeah. So I.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  If you had said that to me, I would.

• 19:02Speaker 08

  Thank you. Actually, that's how I got the job, guys. I, we were in an elevator. I was like, I'll bite the head off a chicken to be on her show. Episode four.

• 19:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 08

  I'll bite the head off a chicken. I'm actually going to do it at the end of this. So stay.

• 19:16Josh Horowitz?

  Carolina, how many chickens heads were bitten off to get your role in this one?

• 19:20Speaker 06

  A lot.

• 19:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 06

  A lot. You are so excited. No, I didn't, but I had a fake name and I didn't know what, when I first auditioned for it, I had no idea what the show was about. So I just went blindly into doing it. And then, once I did it, I, and the whole story is wild how it all came about. And, um, and I put myself on tape, then I, days passed and I tested for it. And I got the two scripts, because I'm not in the first script. And just reading the world and what Vince created was just unbelievable. I was like, oh my God, this is so wild and so incredible. And, and then I tested for it and, and, and I met Ray and I was just,

• 20:06Speaker 06

  she was so incredible and so giving and so loving and Vince was the same way. We sat around, we talked for a while and, and it all just, yeah. It was really a special experience.

• 20:16Speaker 08

  Like Vince has a reputation for being the nicest man, I think, in show business. Do you know that? Yeah, and it's true.

• 20:22Speaker 06

  He's just so kind, you guys, so kind. It makes you feel so welcome. And Ray, you're the same way.

• 20:28Speaker 08

  Yeah, it's bizarre. You're bizarrely kind. It's like...

• 20:31Josh Horowitz?

  I'm getting asshole vibes.

• 20:32Speaker 08

  Yeah, no, you, right. That's an act he puts on for you guys. But no, it is such an amazing set. Like every single person there is respected and...

• 20:39Speaker 04

  You two guys fit right in and just, you're so wonderful, both of you. As you can tell from watching the two episodes.

• 20:45Speaker 08

  Thank you.

• 20:45Speaker 04

  And, uh, no, you guys fit right in. You're just, uh, we, we, we actually do with any, any role, we, um, you know, big, large or small, these are large ones, but even the small ones, we do as much due diligence as we can. And that's even for, uh, behind the camera, you know, folks working on the show. We, you know, we ask around and, and we just, you know, wanna adhere to a strict no asshole policy and, and, uh, so that's what is important.

• 21:14Speaker 06

  And it's so true. Everybody... Um, starting from you and Ray, everyone is just so kind and so wants to be there. Everyone that's on set, the crew members, like the cast loves each other so much and it's like true genuine love for one another and it's so supportive. And it's just such a beautiful family to be a part of, you know? I feel so blessed. Thank you, Vince, for making me part of this family.

• 21:38Speaker 08

  Yeah, ditto.

• 21:39Speaker 06

  Because it's really special. It's, it's, it's one of a kind. You don't get this often, you know?

• 21:44Speaker 05

  It is definitely a unique place to work.

• 21:46Speaker 06

  It really is. And everybody's been with you for so many years since Breaking Bad and everyone keeps coming back to work with Vince because of who you are, your genius writing, your all of, all that, but who you are as a person, what you bring to the table. People want to do their best work and they want to do even better because you're like, you want to make sure that Vince is happy, you know? And it's such a great, it's such a great creative experience. You know, you want to do your best and even better and better and better and challenge yourself to do the best that you can and push yourself. And everyone does that, everyone on set. It's incredible.

• 22:23Speaker 08

  Yeah, like kind and nice and then what is going on in your head that you create these incredibly insane worlds where like the worst things happen? It's amazing.

• 22:32Josh Horowitz?

  Well, let's get into that insane mind because now we can start to talk about the concept of the show. This audience has seen the first two episodes, we're running this podcast after the first two.

• 22:41Speaker 08

  Thank God, because I need to talk about it. No one has seen it and we don't get to talk to anybody.

• 22:45Josh Horowitz?

  Let's get it out, get it out of your system, Ray. Talk to me a little bit about just the, the basic concept behind this because this does seem to be like an accumulation of all your experiences. We talk about the X-Files, you obviously, you grew up a sci-fi kid and there, there's that tendency in you, but it has the funny, quirky, dark humor that we've seen in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, but it also feels very reflective. Of the times we're living in, I don't know, just give me a sense of sort of like how you cooked this one up and how far, what's the germ of the idea that spawns this?

• 23:16Speaker 04

  Well, I'm slower than mud. So if it seems really timely, it, and that's completely up to you guys, the audience, the audience everywhere to, to infer what you will and to find thematically what you choose to find. And I, and I'm all for that because I think once we make this thing, it's, it's up to the audience to evaluate it and, and dissect it and with any show, not just this one. But I'm very slow and the germ of this idea came to me somewhere around eight or eight, maybe even eight, nine, 10 years ago. We were working on, Peter Gould and I had just started Better Call Saul. And we're having a great time working on it. And we'd

• 23:59Speaker 04

  take these long lunch breaks from the writer's room and I'd walk around Toluca Lake, California, near, near our offices. And I started kind of daydreaming about this story about a guy who everybody's really, really nice to him. And everybody is really solicitous. They do anything for this guy. They just love him unconditionally. I mean, anybody, men, women, anybody on earth. And that intrigued me and I didn't know what the hell reason people would be so nice to this one guy for. So that's, you know, I don't know where that idea came from, but I, I enjoyed daydreaming about it. And then I'm thinking, well, is this two hours worth of story? Is it a hundred hours worth of story? Meaning, is it a movie?

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Is it a TV series? Or maybe it's a, maybe it's a mini-series, somewhere in between the two. And, and as I started to put a little flesh on the bones, which is just, it takes a long time, at least for me, it took months. But as this was happening, the wonderful good fortune on my part is, as I said, we're working on, on Better Call Saul. And Peter and I and all of our writers and all the crew, everybody involved in that show is, it just loves Ray Seehorn. She just, I guess, the first time I had ever worked with her and first time Peter had worked with her, all of us and all the other actors, Bob Odenkirk, everybody. And I thought to myself, I wonder, it doesn't have to be a

• 25:28Speaker 04

  guy who's getting treated well by everybody.

• 25:30Speaker 08

  Amen.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  A female.

• 25:32Speaker 08

  Sorry, did I say that out loud?

• 25:33Speaker 05

  True, true.

• 25:34Josh Horowitz?

  I can hear you.

• 25:36Speaker 08

  Do I do that thing where my brain talks out my mouth? Okay.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  I really, I start with character typically and I'm not really, I don't really, I'm not looking to have an axe to grind typically, like with Breaking Bad when it came out, talking to all the reviewers who were all very, very nice about it, but so many questions about, oh, this is obviously an indictment of the healthcare system of the United States. And I was like, nah, it's just about a guy who cooks crystal meth.

• 26:06Josh Horowitz?

  Sometimes it is just what it is.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

• 26:12Josh Horowitz?

  So when you read this part, what turned into Carol, I mean, what a delicious part to dive into. The juxtaposition of this pretty miserable human being surrounded by this insane world event and everybody being insanely nice to her, driving her insane. I mean, give me a sense of just sort of what you made of her right from the start and what's been the pleasure of playing her in this first season.

• 26:37Speaker 05

  We were in an interview yesterday, Vince and I, and they were asking about, and I've been asked many times, like, what do you mean by this tagline, the most miserable person on earth? Is she really the most miserable person on earth? This is so obvious and you guys all got it. I didn't, because I'm that dense. You said, in the new world, she's the most miserable person, which is fair. Absolutely a fair assessment.

• 27:02Speaker 05

  It still was part of what I was thinking from the beginning of like this misanthrope. When I read the pilot, that's the first script I got. It's the only script I had for a long time. And if you guys had only seen the pilot, that is a little bit of a separate show. It starts to dovetail in where we will go, but you know what I mean? But like the physical threat changes to a psychological threat. And you kind of start to understand the humor and the other stuff we will explore. So I was reading that and I was like, oh, this is incredible. And it's also like, it's physically demanding. It's emotionally demanding. Then I get the second script and I was like, oh, we're, this isn't what I thought it was

• 27:47Speaker 05

  gonna be. It's gonna be this and it's gonna be that. And then it's not that. It's not that. And we keep exploring it, which I knew Vince would do because he does that and he loves to do that. But then I got so excited and then I got so scared.

• 28:00Speaker 05

  I was like, oh, wait, he thinks I can do this. It's hilarious sometimes. And then it is like gut wrenchingly painful. And then it's psychological. And I was like, oh, then there's, we can't give us spoilers, right?

• 28:19Speaker 04

  Not this too. You could talk about the first two, but.

• 28:22Speaker 05

  Oh, okay.

• 28:23Speaker 08

  Um.

• 28:24Speaker 05

  And.

• 28:25Speaker 08

  And.

• 28:27Speaker 05

  I'm fine. I'm fine in it, right?

• 28:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 05

  I do okay.

• 28:31Speaker 08

  But I didn't get to the end.

• 28:32Speaker 04

  No one tell Miriam.

• 28:33Speaker 05

  Okay, this is all I will say is like, it keeps going. Every time these tropes and these ideas, the same is for you as the audience, it's the same for me as the actor, where I was like, I think I know where it's going. You might feel the same. And then it changed. It just kept shifting. And I understand a lot of the themes and points of reference it's bringing up. And believe me, I stayed up late at night and Caroline and I did, Miriam and I did, our crew did.

• 29:05Speaker 05

  There are big questions to grapple with, but one of my favorite things about the show among many is that it's the human nature question that's at the heart of it the whole time, you know, like, what, what does being happy mean? What does being content actually mean? What does your success mean? How do you define success? How do you define love? How do you, like, Carol, yeah, she's the most miserable person now, but she was actually miserable before because she wouldn't even take in what was bringing her joy before. That was me. So I was playing Miriam earlier. No, no, like, she's the buffer, right?

• 29:50Josh Horowitz?

  She's a success. She's a successful author that is just hollow inside, clearly. There's a hole.

• 29:56Speaker 05

  Hollow or, we talked about this a lot, about like, why does she hate her fans so much, right? And we talked about it and I was, Vince told me, rightfully so, she doesn't hate them, she hates herself, right? And I've always thought as an actor, it's terrifying to think, if you believe in them when you, when they say you're great, you have to believe in them when you say you're a piece of shit. You know what I mean? It's very scary. And also, we still haven't, we didn't look it up. Is it Groucho Marx or Woody Allen that says, like, you don't want to be a member of a club that wants you as a member?

• 30:36Josh Horowitz?

  I feel like it's Woody that referenced Groucho Marx.

• 30:38Speaker 05

  I think it's Groucho originally. That's an original Groucho.

• 30:41Josh Horowitz?

  And Woody would always reference.

• 30:42Speaker 05

  I think so.

• 30:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 04

  You were right. I thought it was the opposite.

• 30:46Speaker 05

  You know what? That's the point of this entire post-show discussion.

• 30:49Josh Horowitz?

  That you won? You won the anecdotal story?

• 30:51Speaker 05

  I won. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't think I answered your question.

• 30:54Josh Horowitz?

  I answered some questions, those were great, though.

• 30:56Speaker 05

  Okay, thanks.

• 30:57Josh Horowitz?

  You win.

• 30:58Speaker 05

  I was shitting my pants. That's the answer to my question. You did great. Thank you so much.

• 31:11Speaker 00

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• 31:42Speaker 07

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• 32:15Josh Horowitz?

  All of these roles present great challenges. Carolina, I mean, this is a challenging role. This is an interesting person. I don't know. What do you call these people that have been?

• 32:25Speaker 06

  The others.

• 32:26Josh Horowitz?

  Is that what we're calling them?

• 32:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, the others.

• 32:30Josh Horowitz?

  So is there a guide to playing the others that Vince gave you? Like in terms of like attitude? How happy to be? How positive to be? Or?

• 32:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think we work with the how, I mean, Vince would push me to go further and further into that world of happiness and we'd discuss it on set. And sometimes you would say, and that's the genius of Vince writing, because he sees things in a way like, am I going too far? Is this going to be too far? But there's so much humor in it, you know? And it's just, there's, in the first scene where you see me meet Carol, there's just so much humor in it and just...

• 33:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we would talk about who are these people? And, you know, the contentment, the happiness, that what they're experiencing, how, you know, being, having the whole world in your mind, having muscle memory to do any task. So it was, it was challenging and also not reciprocating any empathy as far as, you know, acting and reacting with Rae when she's having her feelings, just holding space for Carol, the character, and having her go through her journey and holding space for her and

• 33:48Speaker 06

  knowing that once she comes to our side, she will understand how good this is.

• 33:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:55Speaker 06

  Right? So it's just such opposing views. Carol-

• 33:58Josh Horowitz?

  You have to like shut up all your instincts as an actor.

• 34:01Speaker 06

  Absolutely, absolutely, all the time. And there was moments where, also, you know, in my first days on set, you have, you know, your first day jitters, you know? And it's like, well, this character doesn't have that. You know, normally you're like, give it to your character, whatever you're feeling, whatever you're experiencing. And I was like, eh, you can't do that. So you have to feel confident and powered and all these things.

• 34:25Speaker 08

  You couldn't be a neurotic mess? You couldn't be a neurotic mess because you're like, that's just not my character.

• 34:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's just not my character. I'm just at peace. But yeah, it was, it was, it was a great challenge and, and just trusting and, and the whole experience. And I mean, as you guys saw, I did taxi a C-130 Hercules.

• 34:42Josh Horowitz?

  No big deal.

• 34:43Speaker 06

  No big deal.

• 34:44Speaker 04

  It was for real.

• 34:45Speaker 06

  But that was for real, you guys. I actually did taxi the C-130. Yes, she did! Like, for real. Yup. Which was pretty epic. You know, when do you get to do that?

• 34:56Speaker 04

  The Albuquerque Airport, that's for real. That's, there is a fair bit of CG in this show and in subsequent episodes, but when you're looking out the window, the side cockpit window, and she's taxiing it through the actual Albuquerque Airport ramp, that's, she's really doing that.

• 35:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm using the wheel to actually taxi the plane, which is quite wrong.

• 35:18Speaker 08

  What could go wrong?

• 35:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, nothing.

• 35:20Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good skill to have going forward.

• 35:21Speaker 06

  Isn't it? Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 04

  We got an extra thousand bucks worth of insurance that day.

• 35:27Speaker 06

  So it was great to like, you know, do a lot of rehearsals, even like the scene with the excavator, being able to operate that. I had to know how to operate it perfectly. So when you get on it, it's not like I have a manual like, oh, okay, this button. Oh, let me, you know, look at Google, you know, whatever, and YouTube and practicing that and what that is, how that lives in my body. And just when you get on, whatever you do, you're just an expert, a perfect at whatever it is. So that was a lot of fun, you know, being able to practice these things and a lot of great things.

• 35:57Speaker 05

  But I was gonna say, to celebrate what she did, if you think about the way we, as humans, we mirror each other, right? Like, if somebody, if you're talking to your friend and she starts to get sad, you become sad. If she takes it in a conversation, in the conversation in the direction of like an argument, then you do that. You elevate or escalate to where they're arguing. She's not allowed to do that. I'm screaming at her and she's not allowed to mirror that, which is not only the human reciprocity, it's the actor's reciprocity. But you can't look high as a kite, you can't look stoned, you can't look like a robot, please don't look stupid,

• 36:39Speaker 05

  be smart, be intelligent, take it in. And they were all dialing the send, Vince, Gordon Smith, Allison Tatler, like the murderers row that you had behind you.

• 36:48Josh Horowitz?

  It was a group effort.

• 36:50Speaker 05

  I watched this person dial it in and I'm so in awe of what you did. But very hard job, deceptively very difficult job.

• 37:00Speaker 06

  Thank you. Thank you. Having you as a partner was everything. It was a gift of gifts.

• 37:05Josh Horowitz?

  Talking about-

• 37:06Speaker 05

  Miriam's job was easy. Let's ask her questions.

• 37:10Josh Horowitz?

  No, but that, I mean, the challenge for your relationship, the two of you, to establish, you know, we go into this show and there's obviously a long history there that you have to convey right from the beginning. I mean, who is Helen to Carol in your mind and how do you, I don't know, convey so much so quickly?

• 37:27Speaker 08

  Well, I don't know. You all fell deeply in love with Ray, right? Like, that's not hard to do. And I feel like when we worked together, we were like, oh, so we're just best friends who haven't met yet. Like, that was what that already felt like.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  That's true.

• 37:40Speaker 08

  Ray is just- A phenomenal actress who makes everything you have to do easy. She's so generous. And there was space provided for us to learn to feel like a couple. And the writing is so good. And everything was there to help you do the best you could possibly do, including to have this person who I would love to have my... I'm proposing to you right now. Is that weird? I should tell my husband. Yes. Someone call my husband. Will you? No, get down on him. No, she made it easy. The writers made it easy. The whole environment made it easy. And it's fun. It's you're doing what we love to do, which is play make believe, which is create a story.

• 38:22Speaker 08

  And the story doesn't work if this relationship, you know, that loss needs to matter. Right? And so you feel like, oh, I have the job that is really precious because I believe in this show and I have, we have to do this. We have to build this together. So it was fun and scary and wonderful. And, you know, it's one of my best relationships, really. You guys did such an amazing job.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  So you were adorable together, right? From like the first afternoon you guys met, right? It was like, yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 08

  It was really weird. We clicked so fast.

• 38:57Speaker 05

  Clicked so fast. Eighties music was a huge part of it.

• 39:00Speaker 08

  Yeah, well, in any relationship, really.

• 39:02Speaker 05

  But we did know, we knew as actors, like, and I talked to you about this too, like, this has to sustain the grief of losing her best friend, her partner, love of her life, also her buffer to business and social world is gone. And it has to inform everything. And there are many decisions that my character makes for multiple episodes that are based in that grief. And so we talked about that. Even in the scene where I lose you, it's like it had to be...

• 39:42Speaker 05

  It had to be hard. It could not be just cinematic, because it does, it has to live in our memory.

• 39:48Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 05

  For a long, for a long time.

• 39:50Speaker 08

  And also, if, in some ways Helen's the conduit for Carol's happiness in some way, it, she's sort of,

• 39:58Speaker 05

  Really for her career and mine.

• 39:59Speaker 08

  Well, yeah, but also, you know, she, she won't allow her to close herself off from the, what's beautiful about the world and what there is to love about the world. And so Helen, you know, is just-

• 40:11Speaker 05

  And her character is bringing you up when she's like, can we find your joy again? It's very, I think sinister of Carolina and shitty.

• 40:23Speaker 08

  Wow. Sorry.

• 40:26Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that love affair ended. Oh, well. I do also appreciate, by the way, as someone that's covered like Twilight and Outlander, the profession that you gave her in that world. I don't know where you, how you landed on that of all professions, Vince.

• 40:39Speaker 08

  Romance novels?

• 40:39Josh Horowitz?

  I love that so much.

• 40:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, how'd you pick that?

• 40:42Speaker 04

  I, I don't really, I know, definitely not putting them down or anything. It just, it's always the question everybody asks, where do you get the, where do the ideas come from? And the answer is always deeply unsatisfying because the honest answer is, I don't know. It just, it felt like, I mean, in a weird way, I mean, I'll admit this much. I think in a weird way, Carol Sturka, by the way, named after Carol Burnett, one of her favorite people.

• 41:09Speaker 08

  Oh, my God. Legend.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and a character name from Twilight Zone, an episode of my favorite show, arguably my favorite show ever. It was a Fritz Weaver character in an episode called Third, Third Planet From The Sun, I think. But his last name was Sturka, and I just liked the name. And I looked, I looked it up online and I didn't see any reference to it except for Twilight Zone. So I just say, it sounds good. But, and I, it's, I will admit to this much, that Carol Sturka is kinda in certain ways based on me. Exaggerated, like, you know, with the, you know, I, but you know, the thing, we're really, we're talking about fans.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  I mean, it got us here. It's, it's gave us, given us wonderful lives that when Carol- Kind of shits on her profession, uh, you know, uh, performatively, I think in, in, um, in, in, uh, first in the car, she's being driven away from the Barnes and Noble and then in the bar, it is, it's this thing about this is so good. The way I see it, it's like, this is so good. I, I'm just afraid it's going to go away like that. And so I gotta, I gotta inoculate myself. I have to prophylactically act like it doesn't matter in case it does all disappear. But, um, so I, the writer part of it came first, but then the, the romanticy author part of it, it just, it just seems like a more fun profession with,

• 42:37Speaker 04

  with, with, uh, fun fans and whatnot. I, I guess that's where it came from.

• 42:41Josh Horowitz?

  Talk about the fans. I mean, obviously, you know, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, I would imagine they're, they're part of your lives almost every day, if not every day, fans want to reference them to you. I mean, what does that feel like? These, these are shows that didn't just come and go. They still live very much in people's hearts and minds. Um, what does it mean to you when fans come up quoting the show, showing you fan art? I mean, I'm sure it continues.

• 43:07Speaker 04

  Means the world. I mean, I just, I, people think I'm being all aw shucks when I say, I didn't know Breaking Bad would be a hit, but we, I mean, we just did not. I mean, I just, the best, once the show was ordered, which blew my mind, uh, or rather, once the pilot, it, you know, it all happens in, in, in, in steps. And once a pilot was ordered, I thought, this is going to be great because they're going to let me, I don't know how, why, they're going to let me direct the pilot of Breaking Bad and, uh, I'm going to have this great calling card. I'm going to do my, the best I could do on it and I'll have this 48 minute calling card I can use to get jobs. And, and I'm not, that was for

• 43:49Speaker 04

  real. Seriously, that was the, the highest I could imagine this thing could, because it's like, who the hell's going to watch this thing? And, and then, and I mean, it's still, I still feel like I gotta pinch myself and see if I'm dreaming. Uh, it, it still blows my mind to this day. That hasn't changed. And, uh, yeah, I mean, you just, you just, uh, for the writers in the room, the folks who, who want to, who want to do this job, more power to you and. Go down swinging on stuff you believe in because there is more failure than success. And a lot of people tell you, "Don't, don't write about thus and so, that, that was so 2018." Or, "Don't, don't do this thing, don't do this genre, everybody's over that."

• 44:32Speaker 04

  A much better writer than I said, famously, "Nobody Knows Anything," William Goldman. And he was 1,000% right. And you, it's gonna hurt when you get kicked in the teeth. And it will happen more often than not. You might as well, and it's gonna hurt a little more if you really care about the thing you're working on, but you might as well go down swinging on the thing you care about. And that's, that's my advice.

• 44:59Josh Horowitz?

  Hundred percent. And for, for you, Ray, I mean, Kim probably still comes up, again, probably every day. What, does it tickle you? I mean, the, the fact that that character cut through the way it did and still does must still boggle your mind.

• 45:14Speaker 05

  It does. I, I, I'll try not to cry. She will always hold a place in my heart. And I, I like, like Vince when he's writing stuff and Peter Gold when he's writing stuff. It's not setting out to preach something or do something. And I do think, and I've been doing what I do for a very long time. I'm with incredible people around me. I've had mostly exceptional experiences. But something happened on Better Call Saul where at some point, I think it was Peter, that said to me, I was doing some, some scene with Bob and he's doing something idiotic, as he does.

• 45:57Speaker 05

  And my character is angry and she should be. I did the scene, we rehearsed the scene and he loved it and we're getting ready to film it. And then when we went to shoot the first take, at the very end, I did like a wry smile at the end to let the character know, "I still got you, I'm fine." And Peter said, "Why'd you, why, I don't think we need that." And I was like, "Oh, oh, I, I, I was just trying something." And then I just told him the truth, which was scary for me. And I said, "I..." I thought, and this is no offense to the other shows I've done, it's just about, we all have to know what show you're in, what audience you're in. Are you doing a farce?

• 46:38Speaker 05

  Are you doing Black Box Theater? Are you doing network multi- we're all doing different things. They're all, I would never be pejorative. I'm very proud of some of the things that I've done, but they are different venues. They are a different beast. He said, why are you doing that? And I said, I guess just to let him know that like, I'm not mad. I'll still be back. And Peter, I think it was Peter, said, as long as you have your own code of ethics and stick to it, we will love you for that. Please don't ever worry about being likable. And it was this

• 47:18Speaker 05

  release to me as an actress. I was like, what?

• 47:26Josh Horowitz?

  You were like, deprogrammed right there, like, what?

• 47:28Speaker 05

  What are you talking about?

• 47:29Speaker 08

  Like, really, because for 25 years, I've been told I'm likable, but I'm

• 47:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then I gotta tell you, if you build it, they will come. That's how smart everybody is watching television. Like, I thought, like, I had to, and you don't spoon feed people. And I was like, oh. And then suddenly, I'm playing this character that often, my closest confidant was the audience, because I wasn't speaking, but Kim had thoughts. And the only person in the room that knew what I really thought about the dumbasses that were talking to me was the audience. Only them. They were my confidant. And it just became this incredible relationship. And to this day, when I walk around and I

• 48:17Speaker 05

  meet anybody on the street, and it's like, the other day, it might not, 16-year-old skater dude, tatted up, and he's like, what's wrong? Skating through the lights. And then it's like, you know, a 70-year-old mom, like, in, like, scrubs, and she was like, you meant so much to me. I will never, I will never get over what this character meant to so many people, male and female, and just this idea of, like, pull yourself up from your own bootstraps, and like, what if you didn't have to be likable? What if you tried to get ahead and people kept shoving you down? Like, it's just, it's, I will never get over it. It's meant the world to me.

• 48:58Speaker 05

  And I hope they follow me in this one. And I know that Vince meant to write this character. And one of the things I'm trying to bring from Kim, and this is a very different character, is that license that Vince and Peter gave to me is like, if I'm just true to it, and I don't try to be likable, and I don't try to be cute, and I'm definitely not cute. I know you saw the first two episodes. What if I'm just as honest as I can be, and it gets really, really scary? And I'm 53, and I was just given a lead by the top television producer in the world? That's right. What if that's okay? Yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 05

  And what if still, there's gonna be a 16 year old skater that identifies with the universal things we're supposed, we're trying to say about human nature. So that's what I'm trying to do.

• 49:52Josh Horowitz?

  You're succeeding.

• 49:53Speaker 04

  That was awesome, man.

• 49:54Speaker 05

  Amazing. Bravo. Did you guys see why I fell in love with her? Come on.

• 50:00Josh Horowitz?

  Come on. This time flew by, guys. Let's tease a little bit. So there's a lot more to come. And the good news is, there's gonna be a second season. It's already been greenlit.

• 50:08Speaker 05

  That's what we heard!

• 50:12Speaker 04

  Thank you Sony and Apple TV Plus. Thank you, guys.

• 50:14Josh Horowitz?

  Is there anything you want to tease about, you know, past episode two?

• 50:18Speaker 05

  Vince, do you want to tell us what happens in season two?

• 50:20Speaker 08

  Wait, is season two the musical episode? Yes, and there's a lot of flashbacks about my wife.

• 50:27Speaker 05

  I'm alive. You heard it, you heard it, you heard Woo's. They're demanding it.

• 50:34Josh Horowitz?

  Brown swell.

• 50:35Speaker 05

  Demanding it. I'm sorry, it's not coming from me.

• 50:37Speaker 04

  You know, I love what you said earlier. You know, there are, the show is intended to continue to surprise you. And hopefully it will. That is our deep intention. And we had a lot of, I can't give away much. I'm really proud of this show. It's got some crazy shit in it. It's, it's, it's got some really dark moments and really dramatic moments. And then, as you've seen, you know, examples of already, it just suddenly turns on a diamond. Funny as hell and then it gets dramatic again and I it's so elastic this show and I I I don't It's a credit to these ladies and to some other actors you have and and to Samba shoot

• 51:20Speaker 04

  Uh who uh is uh Mr. Diabate who is so much fun. I love that guy.

• 51:26Speaker 06

  Great character, yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 04

  Air Force Kumba as you've seen and uh

• 51:31Speaker 06

  Air Force One.

• 51:32Speaker 04

  And uh he calls it Air Force Kumba.

• 51:34Speaker 06

  Oh, that's right.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  And uh

• 51:35Speaker 06

  Air Force Kumba.

• 51:36Speaker 04

  And uh and uh Carlos Manuel Vesga, boy, I wait, can't wait till you meet him. Uh he is friggin awesome and ever all these actors are so great. Uh and and I this all this wonderful things these these ladies said about me. God bless you. But I it was very much a group effort and I have a bunch of really wonderful writers. They've really delivered and I can't, I don't know, I I I can't give away much, but uh uh it's a it's it endeavors to be a very different kind of TV show.

• 52:06Speaker 08

  Can I say as a fan of it that I appreciate watching a show that is that asks me to come to it with conversation, asks me to think about what it's saying. I don't just sit back. I was saying this to you earlier, John. I'll just sit back and stuff food in my face. I mean, I still stuff food in my face. But and and let it happen to me. I'm being asked to engage, to question and to to come up with my own hypotheses about what's being shown to me and my own feelings about it and I'm I'm activated by it. I was really excited by that.

• 52:37Speaker 06

  It's definitely a conversation starter. Yeah, we did a lot of that on set. We're like, what if it this and that? And and dissected and yeah, it was just

• 52:45Speaker 08

  I'm here for shows that make you write a dissertation after every episode, right?

• 52:48Speaker 06

  Watch it and just forget about it. You actually want to talk about it and you know, have a conversation.

• 52:53Speaker 05

  I was like, I feel like it's forward television versus sit back. And believe me, I I sit back. Um, anybody like Below Deck? Um, I love that show, but I'm just saying like like, oh, I got a pay attention like like, uh, I don't know. I enjoy that. I I think one of the things that you've always done well is Rewarding, first of all, you assume the intelligence of the audience. And then, secondly, you reward it. So if you're watching and you're like, I don't understand what just happened. It's not because like, oh, they didn't, I think they missed something. There was a plot hole, or the character wasn't directable. It's like, no, I'm just supposed to keep watching. Like, there's a payoff for this.

• 53:37Speaker 05

  So that's always great. I think it's fun.

• 53:40Josh Horowitz?

  It's off to an amazing start. We're gonna stick around for another hour to talk Below Deck. If anybody wants to stick around, Ray's gonna-

• 53:45Speaker 05

  I will 100% do that.

• 53:47Speaker 04

  We're not going anywhere.

• 53:48Speaker 05

  Vince has no idea what Below Deck is, I can promise you. You do?

• 53:53Speaker 04

  I've heard it. I don't, I don't know what happens, but it's, is it, is it-

• 53:58Speaker 05

  Guess what happens? They sleep together.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Sam, I'd watch that. So, so Josh, happy, sad, confused? Which one?

• 54:08Josh Horowitz?

  All of the above.

• 54:10Speaker 04

  That's the perfect title for this show.

• 54:12Josh Horowitz?

  It kind of is. Poribus works, too.

• 54:14Speaker 05

  It's his podcast.

• 54:14Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations, guys, on the show.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 54:38Speaker 09

  From the parents behind Law and Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries. Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11-year-old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.