Keanu Reeves & Francis Lawrence (CONSTANTINE Anniversary)

Grab your holy shotguns, it's time to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the horror/noir that is CONSTANTINE! Star Keanu Reeves and director Francis Lawrence join Josh to talk all things CONSTANTINE in this exclusive conversation. UPCOMING EVENT! Nathan Lane -- March 20th in New York -- Tickets here SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to Quince.com/happysadco for 365 day returns and free shipping! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  It's been cool to have people come up to me over the years and just, you know, share their appreciation for the film and then also asking, "So when's the next one?" And that's been nice. And I've been asked that question now for 20, no, 18, 19 years.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 0:58Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, Josh here. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. This is, I say this a lot, but this one's a really special one. Happy 20th birthday to Constantine. Constantine. The demented, oddball horror slash noir from the great Francis Lawrence and starring the iconic Keanu Reeves. So, this is one, you know, I hit up Francis and then I hit up Keanu's team and they wanted to come by and chat on the 20th anniversary of Constantine. Almost 20 years to the day that Constantine came out. This is a deep dive into a movie that I know a lot of people love as much as I do.

• 1:42Josh Horowitz?

  Also, worth noting, if you love Constantine, there's a really cool new 4K out there. Literally out right now, I believe. So get it on Amazon, wherever you get your DVDs. If you want to celebrate like a gorgeous pristine version of Constantine. So, Keanu Reeves, guys, I mean, that's always a special treat. I've talked to Keanu a lot over the years, but he's never been on the podcast. So this was a really great excuse to have him on. I think you guys are gonna dig it. Of course you're gonna dig it. Here for Keanu. Things to mention before we get to the main event, though, really quickly. I'll mention, of course, our Patreon. For those folks that love Happy Second Views and what I do and want more bonus content, exclusives, early announcements, merch, acts, discounts to all our live events.

• 2:28Josh Horowitz?

  That and a lot more is over on the Patreon, patreon.com/happysayconfused. Give it a shot. Live events, speaking of those, we've got a lot coming up. One I can announce, I can, I've announced this already. If you're a theater fan, Nathan Lane, come on, a legend, March 20th in New York City at Symphony Space. All the information is in the show notes. Get your tickets now. It's selling quite well, so hope to see you guys there. Okay, so not much more to say before we dive into this conversation, except to say two of the nicest guys in the biz, Francis Lawrence, someone I've done a lot with over the years through his Hunger Games movies. And he did one of our watch-alongs last year, was it last year, maybe the year before?

• 3:12Josh Horowitz?

  And just always like such a sweet guy for someone that can handle these ginormous crazy productions. And then Constantine, as you'll hear in this conversation, was his first. And Keanu, there's nothing more to say about Keanu, except he's kind of the gold standard, the nicest guy in the biz. Legendary, and I love that he's so passionate about this film that came 20 years ago. And hopefully he'll be returning to the character, as you'll hear in this, we talk a little bit about the future of Constantine as well. So this is a rare treat. This is kind of an exclusive for Happy Second Views. We're gonna try to do more of these anniversary things. If you like them, if you saw our Galaxy Quest one, if you haven't checked that out, go into the archives, just a couple of months back. Head on Sam Rockwell and Justin Wong to celebrate the 25th anniversary of Galaxy Quest.

• 3:57Josh Horowitz?

  Now we're doing a 20th for Constantine. What else do you want to see? What anniversaries are coming up? Mention them in the comments below. I'm always looking for good ideas and these are nice excuses to bring on folks that wouldn't normally be doing press. Um, okay. Enough from me. You want to hear from Keanu and Francis. Enjoy this. And remember, if you love Constantine, check out the 4K. It's out now. Um, here we go. Francis Lawrence, Keanu Reeves, and me talking all things Constantine. Enjoy. All right, guys. Does everybody have their holy shotguns? Are we ready to wish a happy 20th birthday to the beautiful child of the exorcist in Chinatown? That is Constantine. Keanu's ready, I think. Francis Lawrence is ready. Yes, we've got the

• 4:39Josh Horowitz?

  director and the star of Constantine Francis, a veteran of the podcast. Thanks for coming back, man.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 4:46Josh Horowitz?

  And Keanu, we've talked many times, but officially, first time on the podcast. It's so good to see you for this just and wonderful cause today. Thanks, man.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Thanks for letting me be a part of it.

• 4:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. And by the way, I do have the holy shotgun, so I could go grab it and bring it over at some point, too.

• 5:02Josh Horowitz?

  We might, we might need to enlist that.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  It's in the room.

• 5:06Josh Horowitz?

  If there's ever an intruder, that will scare them off in a hot second, I would imagine, right? So, look, I mean, a lot to talk about this, uh, this movie. I mean, I think that the greatest testament to any film, any piece of art, is, uh, some amount of longevity. And here we are, talking about this 20 years later. If anything, the fanbase has grown. Just first, just broadly speaking, how does it feel to know that there is such a, a love, if anything, a growing love for what you guys created 20 years ago? Francis?

• 5:36Speaker 04

  Um, it's kind of wild that, I will say, it's like, it's a very gratifying thing. I mean, look, it was, it was my first movie, and it was something that I think had great team spirit from everybody involved, from, you know, me, Keanu certainly, but all the actors, the crew. And we all believed in the, the character, the story, the world, all of it, really loved making it. And, you know, it got like, sort of a weird reception. I think, you know, we, we kind of got by in terms of box office and stuff, but a, but a strange reception, and it's a, was a strange movie for the time. It certainly helped jump start my career and so.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  What do people not like about it? I forget.

• 6:12Speaker 04

  I mean, I just think it was, it was just, you know, strange. I don't remember all the, the, the sort of criticisms.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I blocked it out, so I can't recall.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  But I think it, you know, I, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I, quite honestly, I could, I can't remember what the criticisms were, but it was not like the, like the most praised movie of all time. I mean, they wasn't completely shit on either. But I will say that just over the years, as I was working on other movies and we'd go on junkets to travel the world and all that. Everybody just started showing up with Constantine DVDs and you just felt this love for the movie. And probably more so than anything I've ever done. You just feel this, this kind of growing love for it. And then, you know, years later, suddenly, you know, you make these lists of, oh, the movies that Rotten Tomatoes got wrong. And you're like, you know, the sort of poster child for that movie and you go, oh, okay.

• 7:05Speaker 04

  It's a fantastic feeling. I mean, that's kind of what it's about, right? It's, it's not necessarily about making money and necessarily reviews or awards or anything, but it's like somehow making something that in any way becomes like a part of somebody's life. And is now.

• 7:23Josh Horowitz?

  For you, Keanu, I mean, do you ever, I mean, do you question, look, I know you guys had an amazing experience on this and you were very proud and excited about what you guys had done. So then when like it's received and it's got mixed reception at first, do you kind of question yourself in your mind like, am I off? Did I, is my gauge off? Or did you just a hundred percent believe it just wasn't connecting? Okay.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's been to the, uh, it's been cool to have people come up to me over the years and just, you know, share their appreciation for the film and then also asking, so when's the next one? And, uh, that's, that's been nice. Um, and I've been asked that question now for 20, no, 18, 19 years.

• 8:07Josh Horowitz?

  Well, we're gonna get to that. It sounds like we're getting closer. But first, I mean, I think there's also a great irony in the fact that like you two are notoriously-

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sorry, but I knew that I was, I mean, I felt like-

• 8:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, please go.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  It was cool. I was so excited to work with Francis and in the cast that eventually was assembled and, um, and just, you know, it was such a great experience to make. And, and so coming out of it, you know, I felt like in having watched the film, I was like, the idea of the hope and the ambition to what was actualized to, you know, Francis's vision and what everyone did on the film, I was very, um, confident in, you know, I really felt like it was a

• 8:56Speaker 01

  beautiful, exceptional, entertaining film. And so I wouldn't, when it wasn't, uh, however it was critiqued or criticized in terms of the negative aspects of it, it was like, what are you, what are you talking about?

• 9:16Josh Horowitz?

  Well, the thing is, is like, there's no comp for it. There's virtually no comp for it. I think that was the problem.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  It was very unique. I think that's what, what I loved about it. I mean, and I've done this a lot over my career, which is like, I've always been attracted to these kind of like strange mashup hybrid genres. And so this was definitely one. And I think that's the thing is that, you know, no, I don't think anybody had seen anything like it.

• 9:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right. I mean, the closest I can think of it, it's a kind of a different thing is like, I always loved the movie Dark City, which was kind of a combo of like noir sci-fi. This is more, this is noir and horror having a baby. So even that's not quite the right comp. So I can imagine from a studio, I mean, I'm frankly shocked even the studio, and I think I'm so happy they did, but they gave you Francis, who had a hell of a resume as a music video director, but you had a nice budget for this, too. You had like a good-

• 10:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know. I mean, I, looking back, I'm sort of like, wow, I can't believe I sort of pulled that off with the studio.

• 10:11Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say before, I also find a delicious irony in the fact that like you two guys are notoriously two of the nicest human beings on the planet and you have, you make this film that is all about, you know, the occult and heaven and hell and demons. And I'm just curious, have you both always like, I don't know, had an attraction like towards The Exorcist, The Omen, films that somewhat are in this ilk?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  I I was really careful and I of not inviting the darkness into this. You know, I didn't want to do The Exorcist. I didn't want to be. I liked that this was a step removed from any kind of Catholic. You know, had been, I mean, of course, there's similarities and we're playing in the playground, but I didn't want to invoke, you know, any darkness.

• 11:13Speaker 04

  Well, there's a sense of humor throughout. There's a there's a wink to Constantine.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. To your point, I guess I take those kinds of things seriously and I didn't want to bring that. You know, we're talking about heaven and hell and being damned and. But I didn't want to, you know, invite, I didn't want to say the name or invoke anything out there. I didn't want any darkness. I felt like I wanted this to be a project of light. Personally.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  But I will say I like I I tend to lean toward, and this was not, I did not know this at the time, but I have. I tend to lean toward stories about very sort of lonely, isolated characters on very solitary journeys. Um, and that also tends to sort of dabble in darkness. That doesn't mean that I lead my life in a dark way.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't mind the darkness.

• 12:06Speaker 04

  But I say that like I I say that. No one I have like like are drawn to darkness, not that we think like that's what you need to put out in the world, but. You know, I think there are complexities there that sort of draw us to characters like John Constantine and those kinds of worlds.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, Francis, I'm just talking about, you know.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  I totally, I totally.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  I didn't want to bring any fucking devil shit.

• 12:33Speaker 04

  Yes, no, hundred percent. Yes.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, like fucking.

• 12:38Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Leave all of that alone.

• 12:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  I like darkness of character and.

• 12:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Suffering and loneliness, you know, and, you know, outsider, but none of the boogeyman.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, no movie is worth Keanu Reeves being damned to hell. We don't need that. That's that's no, we don't want that. Yes.

• 13:02Josh Horowitz?

  Talk to me a little bit about the the the joining of you two because as I understand it, Keanu, you sign on or you're at least attached to it. And as I said, Francis is a first time director. He's trying to kind of get in on this and it was a bit of a long road. You were talking

• 13:16Speaker 01

  to the studio for a while. Francis, you have a story about that?

• 13:19Speaker 04

  It was a it was a very long road. Actually, in my office over here, I have framed, I was gifted at the end of the movie, but there's a cocktail napkin from a hotel in, I think, Sydney, Australia, when Erwin, who's still my manager, but used to work with Keanu and the executive at Warner's at the time, had gone to go meet with Keanu and had a list of directors to pitch. But basically, I spent about nine months trying to get this job. And first, I had to convince the exec at Warner Brothers to sort of, you know, like pass that hurdle that I could do it, that I'm responsible, all of that, that I have a vision. I had to meet with all the producers, there's a million of them, including Akiva. I passed all of that. The last speed bump was going to be Keanu. And Keanu had

• 14:02Speaker 04

  said, like, I'm open, but no music video, guys. And I was like, oh, shit. Right?

• 14:10Speaker 01

  So I watched some music videos.

• 14:12Josh Horowitz?

  They're really good music videos.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Anyway, it's like, it's great. I have my name. I'm like one of, I think, eight people on this list on a cocktail napkin that got pitched to Keanu. But anyway, Keanu luckily was willing to meet me. So he came in from from Sydney, having just finished The Matrix sequels, and came in and sat down. And I filled this boardroom at the company where I did music videos, this boardroom of like this presentation I had built out that had my ideal cast and like images of how I wanted it to look and images of locations and and illustrations of certain shots like like Constantine in Hell and all like basically had the whole movie mapped out. And we spent about four hours

• 14:55Speaker 04

  that day. And then we met, I think, at the Chateau Marmont like a few days later and had another like four or five hour meeting. And I think we just Sort of understood one another and understood each other's kind of point of view on the character and the world and the story and all of that. And we got along. And so it's, you know, just luckily Keanu approved the vision and the approach and our connection. But yeah, he was the last hurdle. I had made it so far. And then, you know, he was like, no music video, guys.

• 15:30Josh Horowitz?

  So Keanu, what are you like, you've obviously worked with heavyweights that have amazing story careers behind them. You've also worked with first time filmmakers. What are you feeling out in that meeting? You're seeing the vision, but is it also kind of a vibe check? Like, what happened there? What happens generally to earn your trust from a first time filmmaker?

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was walking into that room in the presentation and meeting this fine young man. And so I thought, since I didn't know him, I was just starting with the presentation and the vision, you know, Francis had for the film, which I was like, yeah. And, and yeah, and just speaking sense of humor, intelligence, the way he views the world, or actually not the world, but filmmaking and storytelling and what the script needed and was looking to do what his take on the film would be. And so, yeah, so I guess to

• 16:36Speaker 01

  answer your question, it's just what's the what's the director's vision? How do they imagine the film, you know, and can I be a part of that? Am I a good piece for that?

• 16:49Speaker 04

  I think I think part of it too, to just to jump in a little is that, you know, we weren't 100% there yet on the script in our eyes. And so there was like so much potential and we were getting there. So I think part of what we were talking about once we got past the sort of visual aside, and you're getting into the story and the narrative and the characters is You know, you start batting around ideas. And so part of, part of testing one another out is like, how well do we collaborate? How much do we like one another's ideas? Are we, are we really listening? Um, are ideas gelling? Are they building off of one another? And I think there was a lot of that where like, I might throw something out, or he might throw something out, and it would start to generate something that was kind of exciting and you'd find

• 17:32Speaker 04

  new, exciting things together. And, and you realize like, oh, there can be a real collaboration here. And which also happened with Akiva, who was, you know, really kind of took on the bulk of the writing on the back end of the story and.

• 17:50Josh Horowitz?

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• 20:44Josh Horowitz?

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• 21:28Josh Horowitz?

  Can you pinpoint a little bit of what about John Constantine as a character was so enticing to you back then and still is?

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's just pissed off at the way the world is.

• 21:39Josh Horowitz?

  It's fun to play pissed off at the world, I suppose.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  I fucking love that. It's a good reason.

• 21:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  And being trapped by that. And... And having an opinion and I liked his sense of humor. I think we leaned into that a little bit.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  And

• 22:05Speaker 01

  so I would say that was the thing, you know, and and he's fucked.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  So I I really liked that too.

• 22:17Josh Horowitz?

  Do you? Yeah. Do you remember? Do you remember John Constantine's first line in the film? I think that really sums up the character right there. The opening sequence with John Constantine and what he first says.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  I don't recall the first line.

• 22:31Josh Horowitz?

  Francis, do you know?

• 22:33Speaker 04

  I'm trying to think it's a

• 22:35Josh Horowitz?

  He doesn't say much as he enters into this.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  No, he doesn't. He doesn't say any lights. He lights a cigarette. He sort of flicks the one out of the cab. He comes out of the cab. He comes in. He lights the cigarette.

• 22:46Josh Horowitz?

  It's a beautiful overhead.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  Found one, John. And he doesn't say anything. He goes down the hall. And

• 22:55Josh Horowitz?

  It's not until

• 22:56Speaker 04

  That's the cigarette down on the table. He sees the girl.

• 22:59Josh Horowitz?

  But I think maybe I missed. Maybe I got it wrong, but I

• 23:03Speaker 04

  No, I'm John. I'm Constantine. John Constantine asshole.

• 23:07Josh Horowitz?

  This is John Constantine asshole.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  That's right. To the to the demon and the girl. That's right. That's what the line is.

• 23:13Josh Horowitz?

  If you

• 23:16Speaker 04

  That's right. That was one of the first scenes we shot.

• 23:20Josh Horowitz?

  If you don't fall in love with the movie there.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  It was. That was day one.

• 23:24Josh Horowitz?

  Was it really?

• 23:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was day one.

• 23:27Josh Horowitz?

  So talk to me a little bit. Okay, let's get into the actual production of the of the film. You've got a great team around you. You've got

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, even before we get there, I think we have to address that our Constantine, you know, as I jumped into it, is not the comic book.

• 23:44Josh Horowitz?

  And is this a big debate? I mean, obviously, a lot was made about you're not blonde, you're not British, it's not in London. Is that a big?

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, we went Hollywood. I had a black coat, right? The original one was like brown.

• 23:56Josh Horowitz?

  How dare you?

• 23:57Speaker 04

  I mean, honestly, what we did was we were like, we loved the spirit of Constantine, the story we came up with. And Keanu was playing a version of Constantine, but it was not sort of a a copy of the comic book version. It was like, we're not going to force him to be blonde. We're not going to force him into an English accent. We're not going to force him into the color of the coat. It's like, what's our interpretation of John Constantine?

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  It's interesting because I feel like it came at a good time for you guys to do that because nowadays there is such a worry about the fandom and appeasing them first, the hardcore fans, which I respect. And look, we want the fandom to love what the interpretation is. But I think sometimes you can almost be too beholden and lose sight of the fact that it's a different thing.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I just think you don't want to be locked into these parameters of being so utterly reverent to a fan base for something that, you know, it's just like, you fall in love with a thing for certain ideas, but to like just copy the, you know, certain cut and exact color of a coat. It's a little weird, but.

• 25:03Josh Horowitz?

  Um, yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  You might want to check out what midnight looks like.

• 25:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, like.

• 25:12Josh Horowitz?

  They also, they also look.

• 25:15Josh Horowitz?

  The, uh, the fact that you set this in LA, which I know Keanu was important to you. I mean, I think that also lends itself, again, I go back to the trope that this in many ways is a noir. You might as well be, you're closer to Sam Spade or Philip Marlowe than a superhero in this. And I think the fact that you ended up shooting in LA adds to that, to that vibe. Why was LA important to you at the time, Keanu?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  No, I think that's a Francis question.

• 25:40Speaker 04

  Well, I think, I think we were, one of the, one of the aspects I always loved about it was, was the noir side, was the noir aspect of the story. And so I was a big fan of, you know, all those noir movies, you know, whether it's like Third Man to, you know, Maltese Falcon, um, to Chinatown, all of that. And, and read a lot as well, Jim Thompson novels, things like that. And so, so LA was and felt like the perfect spot to do a noir story, the sort of modern, contemporary noir. So we set it in LA and we actually hired Naomi Shohan, who had done Training Day, the production designer. And I was like, you know, she'll, she'll find us the nooks and crannies of an LA. We haven't seen a lot of, and make it feel very sort of grounded

• 26:23Speaker 04

  and authentic, which he did. But I think what Keanu did for us, which was good and which was great at the time, because I certainly at the time would not have had the power to do this. You know, this was at a time when, when studios started saying like, oh, great, your movie's set in LA, just go shoot it in Toronto.

• 26:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  And, you know, and Keanu luckily just made it, I think it was even contractual, but he was just like, it's set in LA, we're shooting in LA. And the studio had to say like, okay, great. And I was, you know, like, yes, actually, one of the two movies I've done that I've actually got to shoot at home, uh, which is nice, but it, it should have been shot in LA and we did.

• 27:03Josh Horowitz?

  This, this is using your movie star powers for good, Keanu. Well done. It shows in the finished product. Um, I, I want to give some love to the amazing ensemble around you in this film. We've got Chime On Sue, Rachel Weisz, Shia is fantastic, Peter Stormare, Tilda Swinton, amazing. Uh, do you guys recall anything about the casting process? Were any of these folks challenging to get to the studio to say yes to? Were any of them no brainers? What do you recall about casting the ensemble?

• 27:33Speaker 04

  Um, I will say that I think pretty much everybody in the cast was on my first choice list, like in terms of people that were in my original presentation. I think the two people that were different were Rachel and Shia. And I think the finding the person, um, the actress, finding Rachel, that was, that was really tricky. We met with so many people. Um, and finding that person that you believe had the intelligence we needed, that you believed could be a cop, that somehow also you believed could have something, some magic in them, some sort of connection to, you know, a more spiritual world, was really, really tricky. Cause there are plenty of people that could play cops, plenty of people

• 28:18Speaker 04

  that could play sort of mystical. But finding that kind of both and a great actress was, was tricky. And then we found, um, her and Rachel, who is great. Um, everybody else was like, was there like Pruitt was one of my first choices. Tilda was by far one of my first, first choices. And I think at the time, um, I think Tilda was a little less well known. And so everybody was sort of feeling like this might be a reach for the studio. So maybe we sort of fill the cast out a bit before we go to Tilda. And I was actually very nervous to meet Tilda because I thought, you know, she was a very sort of esoteric, very smart, artsy actor.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  And she is just fucking fantastic. I mean, she was just an amazing person and so cool and so game and came in and was just like ready to go. And also really loved making the movie.

• 29:12Josh Horowitz?

  One of my favorite small moments with Tilda and Yuki Anu is just when she kind of leans in. It's almost like she's about to kiss you and instead says, you're fucked.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:24Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you get the best actors, you get unexpected great.

• 29:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, she was great. And then the, the only other thing that I'll say that was a surprise too. Peter Stormare was a bit of a surprise and it was, we shot him toward the end of the movie. And he was the last character because sort of the creation of Satan was something that we were struggling with. And one of the first things that I pitched to the studio was actually Satan like that looks like the Antichrist. And so it was actually sort of a, a satanic version of Christ that I think scared the shit out of the studio. I think they were just like panicked and it got rejected. And then we sort of had to go back to the drawing boards and, you know, we've seen Satan many, many times. We've seen the child and the omen.

• 30:09Speaker 04

  We've seen the, you know, the sort of, you know, seductive woman. We've seen, you know, De Niro in Angel Heart. There's so many variations. It was like, how can we do something new? And somehow I started thinking of like Fagin from Oliver Twist and sort of thinking of those characters. And then started thinking of Peter Stormare and we sort of riffing. And then the white suit and the black oil and all these different things came up and the weird haircut and the veins and the tattoos and.

• 30:34Josh Horowitz?

  No eyebrows, as I recall.

• 30:35Speaker 04

  And yeah, and the, and the sort of, the vision for Satan kind of grew. And then I, I think he ended up getting hired, maybe like three weeks before we shot him or something. And, and yeah, he's one of my favorite characters, um, other than Constantine in the movie. He's just so good in the limited amount of time.

• 30:54Josh Horowitz?

  You obviously worked with

• 30:55Speaker 04

  It's so weird with the cigarettes and his haircut and the white suit.

• 31:00Josh Horowitz?

  So off, yeah. You, you obviously have worked with Peter since then. Was that the beginning of a, of a beautiful friendship, Keanu?

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 31:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so. Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  We were, uh, it was really fun to work together. He's amazing. And, uh, so yeah, when he did his series, he, he gave me an invitation and so that was, it was cool to get to work with him again.

• 31:29Josh Horowitz?

  You've, you've, you've shot in hell, uh, by my count, at least twice, Bogus Journey and this. And we're not even counting Devil's Advocate, which obviously is hell adjacent. So I, I have, I have no analysis here, except it's an interesting factoid in your career.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  You should look up how many Johns I've played.

• 31:50Josh Horowitz?

  Good point. Hey, I mean.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  It's over 10.

• 31:53Josh Horowitz?

  You're every man. We, we project upon the John. Yes, that makes sense. Um, what do you recall from, for both of you? Francis, first, your interpretation of hell is really noteworthy in this because it's this kind of parallel world that's really fucking disturbing, like almost like a nuked out end of days. When and how, was that in the script or when in the process did you arrive at that?

• 32:15Speaker 04

  No, no. Basically, so when I, when I signed on, um, the, the hell that was in the script was this kind of black void with these like sort of piles of bones and like oil slicks and stuff. And it was, I don't know, there was something about it that I felt like, um, I had seen before, so that was going to need a new reinterpretation. Um, and so I, I thought a fair amount about it and I wanted to come at it sort of conceptually for the movie. So there was a few things. One was coming at this idea of.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  And this helped a lot was that wherever you are at any given point, there's like a heaven version of where you are and a hell version of where you are. And that just sort of instantly gave geography that kind of made sense. And then was kind of coming up with this time dilation idea of like when you go into hell, right? It's like, you know, in normal life, time basically stops so that time in hell is kind of eternal. Um, which is why you can go in and spend, uh, you know, an hour and then come back and really like a door is just shut and, you know, a millisecond has gone by. That helped a lot. And then it was basically like, how can we make it as unpleasant as possible?

• 33:28Speaker 04

  And I started thinking about these, um, the sort of nuclear test footage, um, you know, from the bomb tests and that kind of nuclear wind and the blast and seeing that hitting buildings and trees and cars and all of that. And so that's basically what we did was we sort of said that that it's this inferno with this massive, almost sort of hurricane nuclear force winds blasting everything with, you know, with ash and, and heat and fire and flame. And, um, and so all those ideas kind of started to stack upon one another, but it really helped to, I don't know, somehow ground it a little bit and it made it really interesting. So instead of just like being on set in a black, black void with bones, you go, oh,

• 34:13Speaker 04

  what's the hell version of the 101 and, you know, Hollywood in Vine? That's far more interesting. We have, certainly haven't seen that.

• 34:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Um, with, you know, the 101 freeway and stopped cars and with the weird growth all over it and.

• 34:27Josh Horowitz?

  And, and from a practical standpoint for you as an, as an actor, Keanu, I mean, there are a lot of the, I love all, there's so many great sets and, or, or practical locations used in this and, and that I would imagine is some version of green screen. Is that something, you've, you've worked in all matters throughout your career. Uh, what were the challenging environments, the challenging days on a production like this?

• 34:50Speaker 01

  They built, they built like a primary, what was it? I think it was like one major big set and then.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, we built a huge chunk of the 101.

• 34:59Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, nice. Oh, was there? That's great.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  On stage.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  With all the cars, it was a big piece of the freeway with all the rotted out cars and, and we had some Stan Winston, you know, demons and stuff crawling around.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  And a big wet machine.

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 35:24Speaker 05

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• 35:53Speaker 06

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• 36:55Josh Horowitz?

  Do any days on set stand out to either of you as challenging, even in a fun way, that were particularly challenging to execute, to get through?

• 37:05Speaker 04

  Um, that, the, I mean, weirdly, we, Keanu and I were actually just talking about this, that there's a, this scene that he likes, like, right before they go into the hospital. It's Shia is, like, making the shotgun shells. And it feels like a relatively simple scene, and, and they're working with Midnight, and Shia starts to go off on this idea of using a cross to create holy water and all that. For whatever, for me, to get the sort of performances and, and the coverage right and the feeling right, it was one of those days where I was, like, constantly in a cold sweat, thinking, like, nothing was working, and, and then Keanu just brought it up in another interview we did the other day about this great scene, like, loving that scene and all that. I was like, "Oh, man, you have no idea how much I was sweating."

• 37:47Speaker 04

  But again, it was not a technical scene. It wasn't one that was, like, super tricky.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  Because I will say, like, doing hell, because we, you know, pre-visited and worked it all out and rehearsed it and knew exactly how we were gonna achieve it. And Keanu is, like, so good at being physical, so, you know, to be able to run up on that car and kind of hit that moment, breaking the glass, like, he's great with that and super game, that that stuff is kind of just fun. It's technical, but it's fun. Sometimes it's those small intimate scenes, you know, that I find, you know, the struggle.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  You know, a pop in my head, Francis, is maybe it's one of the few scenes that, in a way, the character John is not central, and his, the perspective of the scene is split. Like, it's, you're not following John through it, and, but you have me and Midnight. And there's that little moment of how we're listening to him.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  How you had to choreograph it, but also how to tell it. I can see how, like, if you look at the blocking of it, how you, you know, you had, you know, you, he had that long table where to do it, and then we went in the corner, you know, you separated us, and like, that room was like, how are we gonna make this work? And then I think Shia's energy, like, he's like, "Okay, I'm just gonna do this," and... You know, we had to like watch him do it. I can see how like that. I don't know. I'm I'm just riffing, but there's.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  No, that's that's exactly it. Plus, it's also like what what Shai is saying is is what I would call the thing I always worry about in these movies is.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Why?

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Supernatural gobbledygook, which is he's talking about if we, you know, the the crucifix of hysteria if dropped within a large body of water, you know, it's like this kind of exposition.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  Now, there was like all these different aspects of it were making me kind of panic. Um.

• 39:43Josh Horowitz?

  Do Keanu, do you have a memory of seeing the finished film for the first time? And I don't know if you were watching dailies as it was going like a a a sense of relief, a satisfaction that, yeah, as much as the production was fun and rewarding, oh, Francis really delivered.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  I don't recall. Hey, Fred, because we did some reshoots on the film. We did some additional photography. Um, I don't. Did I see a cut before we?

• 40:08Speaker 04

  I think you did. I remember, but I don't remember. I imagine it was before we did the pickups.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 04

  I remember doing a screening on the Warner's lot for you.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  That's what I think.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  And I think you saw it. And then I think and I think maybe we sat down and we kind of pitched to you. We did have some follow up meetings because especially we had we had a bunch of meetings for that. That post credit scene where you leave the lighter for Shia.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Part of the pickups. Um, what was really nice, I will say, because a lot of people think that pickups is a bad thing. And I think it's very strange that in almost every other art, you have a chance to kind of like erase, redo, whatever. But somehow if you do that in film, it's like it's it's a considered a huge mistake. Um. You know, quite honestly, we had a new president at Warner Brothers. He wasn't the person who originally was developing the project, and I don't think he actually at the time really believed in the movie. And not everybody knows how to look at dailies and we put together this kind of 20 minute sizzle reel. While we were shooting that got everybody, including this guy, really excited for the movie and sort of the sort of the perception of the movie changed.

• 41:20Speaker 04

  And there was now an internal excitement for the movie and they saw the movie and they got even more excited. And there was some things that we wanted to do that they then said yes, yes to. And so they actually were like, you know what? Tell us what you want to do. And there was like midnight's club. I just wasn't happy with it. I, I wasn't happy with the extras casting. I wanted to recast the people in the club and create new vignettes of people and a new Constantine walk through. We had been debating. There's a character Ellie that was in the, the first movie played by Michelle Monahan.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  And she only has one line, which is her, was her least favorite line in the movie that's left. But it was like, do we cut her out? Do we shoot some new stuff with her? Like we were playing around with some, some different things. And we got lucky because the, the studio was sort of like, tell us what you want to do and we'll support it. And we went back in and, and shot a number of days and reshoot some stuff we didn't like and added some story beats, shot this epilogue piece for the end credits of Shia.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did that piece with Rachel too, back at the, uh, at the, at the, I don't know, street food, street. You know, like that whole scene about backstory and.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  Oh, right. The diner. Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  The diner outside.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  To kind of bring people up to speed a bit.

• 42:37Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 42:38Josh Horowitz?

  Were, were you already thinking in your mind about returning to this character while you were in production? Were you guys batting around like, we're going to do four of these? We can, we can, this could be fun.

• 42:49Josh Horowitz?

  No, Keanu? You don't, you don't let that enter your brain while you're having fun with Constantine? Well, I'm greedy. Two, three.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Um.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  I can't say no. I don't know, Francis. Do we talk about?

• 43:05Speaker 04

  I don't remember. I mean, I feel like, I feel like, you know, there's times on set when you're having fun and you're kind of loving what you're doing and loving the character that you talk about the possibilities of certain things. Um, but I do remember everybody getting excited after, even after the movie came out, even with some of the mixed sort of critical reception of, of, of like, we would all love to do another one. And there were some initial meetings that were pretty immediate after the release of the first one. And I remember part of it was that, you know, we had been slapped with this R rating. We had followed all the rules for a PG 13 movie.

• 43:45Speaker 04

  And slapped with a, a, an R rating, a hard R. I mean, they didn't even, they didn't even give us notes. They gave us nothing to go on. They stopped taking notes in the first five minutes, even though we followed the rules, um, which is a whole other story, but I think we were all thinking we could do this again. And if we knew we were gonna get an R, we could have really made an R rated movie version.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:09Speaker 04

  And so I think we were thinking like, let's do it again, but now we can go full on, because we're gonna get the R anyway. Um, so that, that was kind of the beginnings of us starting to talk about it and, and.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  No, Josh, why you got the R, Francis?

• 44:25Speaker 04

  So, so we followed all the rules in terms of blood, sexuality, language, violence, all of these things. We followed the rules. The gray zone with the MPAA is intensity. And that's where they can kind of get you. And this is something we always battle with, like Hunger Games, but we now have precedence with them, is the, is intensity, modulation of that. The problem is they said that the movie's too intense, it's too violent, all of this, and we pointed at Lord of the Rings. And we said, look, Lord of the Rings is far bloodier, far more violent, far more people and creatures die in those movies than in ours. And they said, yes.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  But those movies are filled with orcs and elves, and people know that orcs and elves aren't real. People think angels and demons are real.

• 45:18Speaker 04

  And you get an R. No notes, no talking is out of it. It's like, okay, wow. I mean Warner Brothers, you know, there was this Post guy, I felt, you know, I think he was really panicked, he was gonna lose his job because Warner's did not want to spend 96 million or whatever the budget was on this for a rated R movie. I think they were thinking they were getting a PG 13.

• 45:41Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:41Speaker 04

  Johnny Reeves supernatural, you know, action thing and, you know, they got a rated R. And I'm telling you, getting that R rating also left money on the table.

• 45:51Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  Because you know what happens is there's some kids under 17 and what they're doing is they're actually going and buying tickets for, you know, Hitch with Will Smith in it and then coming in and watching Constantine.

• 46:03Josh Horowitz?

  That's literally the case because Hitch was playing against you. I know.

• 46:06Speaker 04

  Oh, I know. Believe me, I know. It like, I know. So.

• 46:12Speaker 04

  Handsome Tyler Perry movie.

• 46:14Josh Horowitz?

  Before, before we get the update on where the sequels at, have you guys talked about collaborating on other stuff over the years? Or has it only been, has Constantine been the one thing you've discussed?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  I think that's pretty much.

• 46:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 04

  That's, that's really it. I mean, I think there's been like some reach outs occasionally about certain things, but nothing that we've ended up like spending any real time on together, but you know, we've certainly have kept in touch over the years and certainly about Constantine and other things have come up a little, but nothing that we've like.

• 46:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 46:46Speaker 04

  And are, you know, tons of brain power on.

• 46:49Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. So, so give me some hope because I feel like there's real hope because this has got, the momentum has built the last few years. I've talked to you about this a bit, Francis. Keanu, you've been out there saying, if there's one character I'm going to come back to, it's Constantine. Uh, Akiva said there's a script that was done at the end of last year. Where are we at? Is there a script that you guys like? What's happening?

• 47:13Speaker 04

  Keanu.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Okay, so I will say, so like I said, very quickly after the release of the movie, we all decided we would love to take another shot at it. We were trying to come up with some ideas. And what we have found over the last 20 years is that we have run into a lot of hurdles, primarily with regime changes at the studio. And that means both Warner Brothers and DC. And because those regime changes have happened, basically, the characters, which are sort of a subset of DC Vertigo, right? The kind of dark universe. A lot of those characters, including John Constantine, have kind of bounced around. So, you know, we might be thinking of an idea, and then all of a sudden, like NBC decides

• 48:01Speaker 04

  to take a shot at John Constantine and do a network TV show. So there's nothing we can do for a while. And then all the characters go to somebody else, and they want to do a show, whether it's for HBO or whatever, and so there's nothing that we can do. So we have constantly kind of come back to try and go and go and go and go and go. And I think really what happened is Keanu going out there, and I think it was Colbert, right? Was it Colbert that, yeah, where, like, what could you play? And I think this thing sort of spread and finally convinced some people that, like, have some control, like, hey, you know what? Maybe this isn't a bad thing.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  I think it's the combination of that and the sort of growing cult following of the original film over the years that have got people thinking like, okay, we can do this, even if it happens to be sort of outside whatever a DC plan is or whatever, you know, the other, the other material, that there's a version of, you know, you know, my Constantine, Akiva's Constantine, Keanu's Constantine together that's outside of that. We have finally gotten to the place where we now have the permission to go down that road. And Akiva is writing, and Keanu and Akiva and I have been collaborating, and I think

• 49:23Speaker 04

  we have some really, really great ideas that we're super, super excited about. And I think we're pretty close on having an object that is really workable.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  All I know is that we're really excited and I haven't been this felt this excited about the object and this excited about how how real it could be in the 20 years since we made the first one, so it has real possibility.

• 49:54Josh Horowitz?

  What's important to you, Keanu? You've had 20 years to think about coming back to this character. What's what's most exciting? What's coming up most in your meetings with these guys that you want to see in this character in this story?

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Just reaffirming just how great it is to collaborate with Francis and Akiva on it. It's just fun to be in the same room and talk Constantine.

• 50:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Just everyone riffing and and just, you know, what Akiva and Francis have come up with and the ideas. I'm aching to play this guy.

• 50:44Josh Horowitz?

  Will we see, is it back in LA? Other returning characters? Can we tease anything?

• 50:48Speaker 04

  No, I don't want to tease. I don't want to tease anything. I mean, you know, I would say that like, I think there's definitely room for some recurring characters for sure. I will say what was always important to me and one of the things that I really loved about the first movie was that the sort of that the kind of motors and drive for John Constantine were very personal, right? Like, this isn't just a like, oh, you know, guys got to save the world kind of thing. Like, we had to kind of find a way in to make it a very personal story. Because John Constantine, by nature, is actually quite a selfish guy, which is part of what I love about him. So that was kind of key. But yeah, I don't want to tease too much. I think it's

• 51:29Speaker 04

  but a really fun character to revisit. And there's a great world to sort of dive back into that I think a lot will be familiar. A lot will be different and new and surprising. But it's It feels sort of, it's definitely in the realm of feeling like worthy of, um, you know, being the next chapter.

• 51:53Josh Horowitz?

  Is the holy shotgun nearby without, without spending, okay, here we go. One last look. Keanu, you don't have one of these, huh?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 52:02Josh Horowitz?

  You don't share ownership? You don't, uh?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 52:08Speaker 04

  This was actually Keanu's rap gift to me.

• 52:12Josh Horowitz?

  The basic.

• 52:14Speaker 04

  But this thing, this thing, this is not like a piece of plastic, I will say, like Keanu had the prop department make me a real brass, you know?

• 52:24Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow. Functional.

• 52:27Speaker 04

  Yes. No, it, it totally works, but this thing must weigh thirty pounds.

• 52:34Josh Horowitz?

  The basic.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  It's not easy to hold out with, with one hand, with your arm outstretched.

• 52:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right. That's part of your workout, your daily workout regime.

• 52:42Speaker 04

  But it's, it's very cool.

• 52:45Josh Horowitz?

  Keanu, can you tell me I'm an asshole one last time before we go, as if you're John Constantine? I'm John Constantine asshole. I need it. I need it.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  No. Wish us luck, Josh. Wish us luck.

• 52:56Josh Horowitz?

  I'm, I'm, look, I'm on your team, always. Congratulations on making a piece of art that has lasted twenty years and, and many more to come. And hopefully we'll have another new piece of art to talk about very soon.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 53:08Josh Horowitz?

  It's good to see you both, as always. Thank you for the time today, guys.

• 53:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, thanks.

• 53:11Josh Horowitz?

  Appreciate you both. Thanks, guys.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 53:35Speaker 07

  What if the imaginary world you created as a child became real and wanted you back? That's the mystery at the heart of sagas of sundry Darkling Gate, a cinematic Call of Cthulhu actual play series where Jane Austen's social drama collides with cosmic horror. The year is eighteen sixteen, the year without a summer. Three siblings and their companion are drawn to a gloomy country estate beside an ancient forest in the

• 54:02Speaker 06

  In its darkened halls, memories of the fanciful Wonderland created by their dead brother begin manifesting in increasingly terrifying ways. Expect ballroom courtships, dangerous family secrets, strange relics, occult rituals, and horrors no human mind was ever meant to comprehend.

• 54:20Speaker 05

  If you like Gothic mysteries, Regency romance, immersive role-playing, horror that follows you long after the story ends, step through the Darkling Gate.

• 54:32Speaker 07

  Watch on Geek and Sundry's YouTube channel, or listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.