Jeffrey Dean Morgan

Do they come any cooler than Jeffrey Dean Morgan? Don't let the leater and the sunglasses fool you though, this guy is as self-deprecating and humble as they come, despite a genre resume most would kill for -- The Walking Dead, The Boys, Supernatural, Watchmen, the list goes on and on. And somehow he and Josh cover it all here. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  In Georgia, you know, Norman and I ride around motorcycles a lot. And I remember we had stopped at this coffee place and we got our coffee. I had this old lady come. She smacked me with her purse and started swearing at me, like dropping F bombs. And it was like, serious. I remember Norman was like, we gotta go. Like, we gotta get the hell out of here. Like, this is serious.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 0:27Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, first time guests. It is Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Walking Dead, Watchmen, BVS, Invincible, The Boys, Grey's Anatomy. We cover it all. This guy is so effortlessly cool, as I told him, and just a decent, decent guy. A great conversation with one of my favorites out there. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, whatever podcast platform you're using. You know what to do. Before we get to Jeffrey Dean Morgan today, quick reminder, as always, if you like what I do, support us over on our Patreon, patreon.com/happysadconfused. We post every single episode early over there. We do bonus content while we can. We give you early access to our live

• 1:12Josh Horowitz?

  events in New York and Los Angeles. Supporting us over there helps us make more over here. Jeffrey Dean Morgan doesn't do a ton of the long form podcasts, so I'm thrilled he came on Happy, Sad, Confused at last. I've certainly chatted with him over the years, but never one-on-one. It's usually with Norman Reedus or Lauren Kohan. And today, he was front and center, promoting primarily the new season of Walking Dead: Dead City, which is now in its third season. It is, by the way, getting the best reviews yet of the spinoff show. They've kind of like rejiggered the format a little bit, the relationship between Maggie and Negan, and it is reaping great rewards. We also talk a bit about his new show on Amazon Prime, Sterling Point, his reality show Destination X. He's a very busy guy.

• 1:56Josh Horowitz?

  But also, this is a deep dive into his entire career. His, he was a bit of a late bloomer, really not hitting it big until Supernatural and Grey's Anatomy in his mid-30s. We cover that crazy moment in Grey's Anatomy that really kind of became a focal point in pop culture, and of course, being in things like Watchmen and BVS. And as I said, The Boys, Invincible, and of course, a ton on The Walking Dead. He's also just like a cool, normal guy. Great, really easy to talk to, really funny, really smart. I'm so thrilled this happened. I know you guys are gonna dig it. So without any further ado, here is me and the one and only Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Jeffrey Dean Morgan, you're on Happy, Sad, Confused.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Josh Horowitz, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

• 2:42Josh Horowitz?

  It's never happened before. We've talked in the past, but I've never had you. You're always with like Norman or Lauren. I get you all to myself today.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm all yours. And I can't wait. And I'm happy, sad, and confused. So it works.

• 2:55Josh Horowitz?

  Did you come out of the womb this effortlessly cool, Jeffrey Dean Morgan? Did you come out with leather and sunglasses?

• 3:00Speaker 00

  I mean, I came out probably fighting and wanting to be cool, but it was something that I had to, I'm still growing into, I think.

• 3:07Josh Horowitz?

  I don't believe that. What were the awkward years for you? What was like, if I had met you at like 10, 15?

• 3:14Speaker 00

  Look, I remember my mom calling around to neighborhood moms and saying, hey, my, my son really needs friends. Junior high was rough on me.

• 3:26Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  So those years were, were hard. And then I kind of got, came into my own, maybe sophomore year of high school.

• 3:35Josh Horowitz?

  Found, found sports, found the arts.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I found sports and I kind of grew into maybe my awkwardness and, and I was probably a little nerdy and, you know, headgear braces, the whole thing, you know.

• 3:47Josh Horowitz?

  Stick up those photos. Far cry from a man before me today.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  The 70s were, were rough on me.

• 3:54Josh Horowitz?

  Well, ever since then, you've made up for lost time because you, you, yes, you exude coolness. I feel, yes, just a little cooler being in your proximity always.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Well, I'm flattered, but you're full of it. But I appreciate it.

• 4:07Josh Horowitz?

  Not true, man, not true. Look, we were just talking, we were both just returning from the madness that is San Diego. We're both, yeah, both been doing that for probably, I've been doing 10, 15 years. I'm sure you've done.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  I think that I have been to, I counted them at one point. It was like 20, 22. I missed last year, but you know, I'd always been there with something, a horror film or whatever. And then, and then, you know, how many years of Walking Dead? Every year except for the COVID.

• 4:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  And then even then, I think we did a Zoom.

• 4:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right, that weird year.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Thing that's super weird. And then last year I didn't go. And then this year, we didn't have Norman, which was very weird and awkward. I miss having, I think he makes me cool. How about that?

• 4:51Josh Horowitz?

  You, you as a duo are one of my favorites, like both on screen and in interviews. You are a lot of fun.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  We have so much fun together. I, I miss, I miss working with him so much. And all weekend, I was getting texts from him. Is, are people missing me?

• 5:08Josh Horowitz?

  He's got FOMO?

• 5:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, a little bit. And I'm like, of course, everyone misses you, mostly me. And he did. He was like, well, both the fans. I'm like, yes, man. Everybody misses you.

• 5:17Josh Horowitz?

  It must be surreal, though, for you, because like, you at Comic Con, the resume that, look, it's, it's not up to us, to any actor, to anybody. It's just, it's written in the stars. I don't know how it happens.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:27Josh Horowitz?

  But you have somehow accumulated this, this resume filled with from Walking Dead to The Boys, Invincible.

• 5:34Speaker 00

  I mean, that's just stuff in the last couple of years. But yeah, I mean, Watchmen, The Losers. I've got a whole, Supernatural. Yeah, it is odd to have kind of fallen into the comic book world. And I'm not sure how it happened. I mean, I guess, I guess the first would have been Supernatural. And I'd done horror films and stuff even before then that had gone to like a Comic Con, little small horror films that, that we do. But then when I fell into the world of comic books, I really fell in. And it was great. And, you know, for a long time, I was in the DC Universe. And, and then that went on

• 6:19Speaker 00

  to Walking Dead and the Robert Kirkman world. And, and of course, you know, Kripke then brought me back to The Boys and God bless them.

• 6:27Josh Horowitz?

  Did you grow up with that stuff? I mean, were you?

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. My, my favorite person in my life was my grandma. My, my dad's mom. And my dad and his two brothers had massive amounts of comic books. So I remember as a, as a young boy, staying with her and just getting to have, you know, a million comics. And I wish to God that I had them now because it was.

• 6:55Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my, my comics, my baseball cards, if I had taken any kind of care of both of them.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  You mean, you both?

• 7:01Josh Horowitz?

  I'd have a little bit of a nest egg.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  I had, I had, I didn't really have baseball cards, but I had basketball cards.

• 7:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  But I had like a signed Wilt Chamberlain, a signed Pistol Pete Mary, you know?

• 7:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  And I never, you know, they were, they were in those stick 'em books, you know? You couldn't even take them out once you put them in and dog-eared. But who knew? I didn't know at 11 that.

• 7:24Josh Horowitz?

  No one, none of us did.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:25Josh Horowitz?

  No, yeah, yeah. I was, I was basically, yeah, in junior high school, I was hanging out at the comic book baseball card shop every day after school. And little did I know, it would, it would be my career, basically.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  It really did pretty well for you.

• 7:36Josh Horowitz?

  I skipped so much school to see movies when I was a kid. And now my mom's like, okay, it worked out. It's fine. So like, when you're, when you're growing up, before you even knew that you wanted to make a go of this.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:47Josh Horowitz?

  Like, what were the films and actors that you, or TV shows that you were obsessed with?

• 7:51Speaker 00

  I mean, westerns. I think my first love was probably westerns and it was shows like Bonanza and Gunsmoke and that stuff. It ages me rather quickly when I start throwing that out. But I remember watching, you know, Batman. And, and I remember the very first Christopher Reeve Superman and that being such a big deal and kind of watching it come to life. But I didn't, I don't think that I thought then even that it would explode into the world that it's become.

• 8:24Josh Horowitz?

  No, nobody did.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  It's kind of taken over the film business, really. If you're gonna do a big movie these days, it's usually a superhero film. You know, it's a cape involved somewhere.

• 8:34Josh Horowitz?

  Have you done much, I feel like you've done some western adjacent stuff, right?

• 8:38Speaker 00

  I've done a couple of westerns. No, I did, I did a mini-series called Texas Rising. It was me, Bill Paxton, Ray Liotta, I mean, guys that I loved and that I miss dearly. And then I did a film with Mads Mikkelsen called The Salvation, which is actually a gray, Eva Green. Brilliant film. If I had done other westerns, I want to say I've been on a horse more than, because that's all I ever want to do. I'm constantly looking to get into that genre.

• 9:10Josh Horowitz?

  You just don't make that many.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  They don't. I mean, you know, Taylor Sheridan's kind of tiptoeing around. And, and I think all of his shows are very much based on kind of the theme of a western.

• 9:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yes. I could see you fitting into Taylor Sheridan universe.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I just had a meeting with those guys just to talk about, you know, future stuff. But yeah, I would, look, they throw me on the back of a horse with a six gun on my, on my hip. And it's less dialogue, for one. Cowboys don't do a lot of talking, but I just love it. It's a place that I'm real comfortable.

• 9:44Josh Horowitz?

  One of, one of your kids is named after Gus McRae, right?

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Well, that's right. Gus, well, and George is named after a Bonanza episode called A Girl Named George.

• 9:52Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, was Gus the Robert Duvall character?

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess it's McRae.

• 9:56Josh Horowitz?

  Did you ever meet Duvall before he passed?

• 9:58Speaker 00

  No. God, I, I mean, I would, he's my favorite actor maybe ever. But never met him. I always hoped to have met him after, especially after Gus was born. Although I was trying to imagine how I would say that to him without sounding like a complete stalker weirdo. But, you know, everything that I know about him, people that I know that have worked with him, have the greatest things to say about him. What a wonderful man he was and what a giving actor and, and no bullshit kind of guy.

• 10:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, like he and, and Hackman are those two for me, right?

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, Hackman's another one.

• 10:32Josh Horowitz?

  The most, the most like naturalistic actors. Like, they never, a word never escaped their mouth that I didn't believe.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  I, I, I agree with you completely. So, you know, put the two of them together and stuff and, and there's heaven. But, you know, Hackman was in some of the greatest westerns ever as well. And, and he's, you know, he's just named two of my, well, maybe my top two actors as well.

• 11:01Speaker 03

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• 11:46Speaker 04

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• 12:30Speaker 04

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• 12:47Josh Horowitz?

  You have a lot of things to talk about because you're a busy man. It seems like you're always working when you're not at the farm, perhaps, but you just came from Comic Con, as I said, promoting.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, so did you. Have you talked about your Comic Con?

• 12:58Josh Horowitz?

  Not on the podcast, yet. But this is about you today.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Well, I mean.

• 13:02Josh Horowitz?

  I had a fun Ryan Gosling moment, Ghost Rider moment.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Well, you had a moment, kind of running the whole Marvel friggin' universe for a moment there.

• 13:12Josh Horowitz?

  I'll take it.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  It was really cool. Hey, audience, if you haven't seen it, go watch the Marvel panel and see Josh in action because it was pretty great.

• 13:22Josh Horowitz?

  But you were there with Lauren and company, talking about the third season of Dead City.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:27Josh Horowitz?

  You could never have fathomed you'd still be playing this character and find it as rewarding all these years in.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  I still can't fathom that I'm doing it. No, originally, you know, I had been doing kind of like hit and runs. I'd go do a year on a show and then I'd go right to another show. And it was fun. I liked it because I was doing something different all the time. And I remember when Scott Gimple called, he runs the Walking Dead world, and he was showrunner at the time. And it was just a very vague offer. We are offering you this role that is the big bad. But I was a fan of the comic book, and I was a fan of the show, and I knew exactly where they were in the story. So I knew immediately there was Negan.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  But it was originally, I think, a two-year commitment. And I was like, I can do that. You know, they were doing 16 episodes a year. I was like, because I hate being away from home.

• 14:25Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  It's hard. At that time, it was just Gosling. George wasn't around yet. That's how long I've been there. I've had a whole nother kid who's now in third grade. And so I was like, well, two years, sure. And that kind of came and went. And then, you know, when the show, originally, it was Norman was going to go do his show, and then Lauren and I were, we were called by, I think, Dan McDermott, maybe, and Scott. And they were like, well, we're going to have you and Lauren take over the main franchise. You'll be the heads of the new franchise. And we weren't splitting off. And then suddenly, Walking Dead was canceled by AMC.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  But in the same sentence as that was, we would like you to do your own show. And they had kind of said the same thing to Lauren as well. In fact, they did. And they were looking at different ways to do different spinoffs. And then they came to us with this idea of pairing the two of us together, which, you know, at first, I kind of laughed. I'm like, there's no friggin' way.

• 15:33Josh Horowitz?

  How's that gonna even work?

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, how would that even work? And I think that was kind of the main thing. And I think that was the whole point, was we don't know yet. But we find it a very interesting way to start a show where your two leads kind of hate each other. And then they were like, and it shoots in New York.

• 15:50Josh Horowitz?

  Sold.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  And that was it. I didn't even care what the idea was then. I'm like, well, I get to be home. And it turned out, we never shot in New York. We shot in deep Jersey, and now, for the last two years, we shot, you know, in the Boston area.

• 16:05Josh Horowitz?

  We're still close, and we're not talking Vancouver or...

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the key. I can get in my car and be home in like four hours, so I can see him on weekends.

• 16:13Josh Horowitz?

  But it also just must be rewarding, like, this new season's getting great reviews, the best yet for this spinoff.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:20Josh Horowitz?

  And I know you and Lauren have talked about, like, you know, there's only so much meat on the bone to kind of play out that relationship.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:27Josh Horowitz?

  After all these years.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  I think we beat it to death.

• 16:29Josh Horowitz?

  Right? You got it. You nailed it.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think we were a couple of years late, to be honest with you.

• 16:34Josh Horowitz?

  So has it been a shot in the arm to kind of like find a new dynamic between the two of you this year?

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Certainly. It was great to shoot because we got to, you know, we've been kind of doing variations of the same theme for 10 years, the two of us. And so that's where kind of Negan was stuck with this Maggie character. So then to do this spinoff that, you know, it started off the spinoff, I think, for the first part of the first year, okay, there's going to be some movement here. And then I felt like last year, we really got bogged down in season two. Negan especially, from my point of view, all I did was cry, and he'd lost his charisma and, you know, everything that made him Negan.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  And I called Dan McDermott, who ran, he runs AMC, and I was like, from my trailer, after the last day of filming of season two, and I said, I can't do it like this anymore. And it's been awesome, and thank you, and I love you. And that started a whole nother conversation. Before you run off, Jeff, is there a way we can shift this and make it a show that we all think it can be?

• 17:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. So you were fully prepared to walk away?

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think Lauren was there also. I was just the first one to call. I'm really quiet about, I don't often call, you know, anybody.

• 18:02Josh Horowitz?

  They know it's something when...

• 18:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. If I'm calling, there's something going on. And luckily, you know, we brought in Seth Hoffman, who I think injected so much. And I remember having my first phone conversation with him, kind of one-on-one, and, you know, what are you looking for? What do you want to do? And I was like, well, the dynamic has to change. There has to be more to it than she wants to kill me and I'm trying to make her not kill me and talk her out of it and save her.

• 18:32Josh Horowitz?

  Lost friends repeat.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's, we've done it. And then I just wanted Negan back. I wanted his humor and charisma and his smartness back in the show because I felt like it just, you know, vanished. And we were able to do that.

• 18:49Josh Horowitz?

  So when you look back at the beginning days, so you were a fan of the comic, you knew the character. Besides the scripts and the comic, were there any other inspirations for how you approached Negan?

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, in the early days?

• 19:01Speaker 00

  You know, really initially, shooting especially that first scene, because we shot, and it was just me talking, you know, the come out of the Winnebago and do my thing. But it was like 10 pages of a monologue, essentially. And really, what I did was, whatever I saw the other actors react to, whether it be that lean, I remember doing that lean for the first time and watching Andy get this look of, Andy Lincoln, who played Rick Ronz, get this look on his face, like, what the fuck is he doing? Like, I could see him get uncomfortable with it.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  And I leaned into it.

• 19:47Josh Horowitz?

  I'm going to lean into the lean.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  I really leaned into it, and it became like a thing. So it was a lot of that. But, you know, the comic book ultimately is the best foundation you can have. And I learned that really was Zack Snyder because on Watchmen, we never looked at a script, ever. It was...

• 20:08Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that one in particular. I mean, his mission statement, and he said it very overtly, was like, I'm going to make it a comic's act, a most faithful adaptation. And he did.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  And he did.

• 20:17Josh Horowitz?

  You were torn out of those pages. You weren't a comedian.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I remember, like, you know, I'd go back to where, you know, he was, and it would just be, it's his dog-eared version of Watchmen, the graphic novel. And I'd turn to the page and be like, I got to do that. I wanted to, like, stand like that, or whatever it was, I wanted to, you know, make it. And also, we had like Dave Gibbons there, who drew the comic book, and I didn't want to fuck with him either. And we all felt that way.

• 20:48Josh Horowitz?

  I will say, we'll come back to Walking Dead, but since you brought it up, I love that film, and I particularly love like the opening of that film.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  I do too. The credits.

• 20:56Josh Horowitz?

  Well, the credits and your death scene.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  Oh, okay, yeah. That's the first thing we shot.

• 21:00Josh Horowitz?

  Those first 15 minutes are as dynamite an open to a comic book film ever. And they make you feel like, you know, Watchmen has its critics and its people that love it, but like, you can't argue that he made the comic.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  No, he sure did. I mean, you know, the ending's a little bit different, and we kind of knew that going in. Giant octopus was going to be tough to do, especially then, in 2007, when we shot it. I mean, I watched, I watched part of the film recently with my son, and I was kind of laughing at the CGI of it all then. It just doesn't match up to what we see now, even what kids are doing on YouTube.

• 21:43Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's unfair.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  It's crazy. But that opening sequence and going into that, the fight with Ozzy Mandius and the death of the comedian, those were the first things we shot. And like that fight, I remember it took like...

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Eight days and I, you know, I'm, you came from the world of television really at that point, right? And so

• 22:05Josh Horowitz?

  Eight days is an episode.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Eight days is a full episode and, and I remember I was, that was the old version of the comedian. So I had all the prosthetics on. So I would go into work at, at two in the morning to start the makeup process. The wrestling cast came in at eight.

• 22:21Josh Horowitz?

  Must be nice.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that first week, I remember I was working, you know, 20 hour days. Uh, and I was like, oh shit, I'm not going to make it through this film. You know, I got another five months to go. Uh, and Zach was, Zach after that realized and he was like, all right, we're gonna have to shoot you and then give you a day off or shoot you. And, and that's kind of what we did the rest of the film. And, but God, that was so much fun.

• 22:48Josh Horowitz?

  So, so back to Walking Dead, because I do want to mention it in the context of like, you've, you've been at the focal point of like these like crazy pop culture moments a few times in your career.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:58Josh Horowitz?

  And we can, we can talk, it's, it doesn't happen often to many actors, let alone you've had multiple. Like, you know, we can talk about grays in a bit too, but like with Walking Dead, it's pretty early on in that run that you bash, you know, you kill a couple of very key characters in the most brutal of ways. And you knew, knew what you were signing up for. That's kind of like the fun of it, I guess, in a way, right?

• 23:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. I certainly wasn't scared of it, you know?

• 23:22Josh Horowitz?

  So what, did that affect like, I don't know. I mean, people are smart enough, I hope to not conflate you and the character.

• 23:28Speaker 00

  Oh no, I still get it.

• 23:30Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 23:30Speaker 00

  I still get hate. I still.

• 23:32Josh Horowitz?

  What do you get?

• 23:33Speaker 00

  Uh, oh, I get people all the time that are just furious with the fact that I killed Glenn. He was so loved. And I never understood how they didn't know it was gonna happen. Like Glenn was, I, I thought a gimme. Abraham was a bonus, you know? But, uh, Glenn of it all, you know, died in the comic books, uh, and that had come out four years prior. Um, and so I was kinda shocked with the amount of people that wanted just suck the air right out of them, but that just hated Negan and Jeffrey Dean with fervor, with fervor. I mean, I remember.

• 24:13Josh Horowitz?

  What's the most extreme? Yeah. What have you got?

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Uh, I mean, I've had, in Georgia, you know, Norman and I would ride around motorcycles a lot and we'd go to various places. And I remember we had stopped at this coffee place and we got our coffee. I had this old lady come, old, uh, she was old. She was probably 80. And I remember she was with her granddaughter who was super excited to see Norman and I. But when she saw me, the, the older lady, um, she smacked me with her purse and started swearing at me, like dropping F bombs. And, and it was like serious. I remember Norman was like, we gotta go. Like, we gotta get the hell out of here. Like, this is serious. Um, but I still can walk down the street in New York today. We could go out right now

• 24:54Speaker 00

  and someone's gonna yell at me and flip me off. And yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hilarious. I mean, it, I've gotten so used to it now that it's, it's part of the deal. And, uh, if you go online, I, I don't anymore, but it's tremendous, the amount of hate that Negan has. Uh, it's a good 50 50 split, or people love to hate him.

• 25:18Josh Horowitz?

  It means he did your, did your job. It's also just as disturbing, the flip side, the people that find him, I guess, is a testament again to the effortless charm that he's like the sexy character to some people. And then that's disturbing in some ways.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's got its own issues. Yeah, yeah. Um, and, and it seems to be kind of split 50 50. Um, you know, I think there's something very interesting about Negan. I think taking uh, someone that is, it, it does something so terrible in the show. It's hard to say that he's necessarily a villain if you break down this apocalyptic world, because then everyone is, everyone's.

• 25:51Josh Horowitz?

  Just trying to survive.

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Everybody's murdered somebody and, you know, um, but you know, he came on the show and, and fucked with our main cast and, and, and those were, you know, the audience's heroes. And, you know, killed two of them. And so I get it, but at the same time, if you're such a fan of the show and this world, but you don't expect the people to think logically. And that's not gonna happen. And so I, I just kind of, it's this now. I used to like really defend Negan.

• 26:20Josh Horowitz?

  Let's sit down and have this.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I, I now I'm just like, hey.

• 26:25Josh Horowitz?

  All right. Hate me, keep watching. It's paying my bills, so it's okay.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, and that's why I think this year's kind of so interesting and it'll be, it'll be fun to see if, if the audience understands Maggie's decision to kind of work with him.

• 26:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Now it's about like, wait, do I forgive her for like betraying?

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah. And now she'll get the shit. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or not. And maybe it'll, it'll turn the audience and they'll be able to, to see, you know, past some of the stuff, uh, and understand that these are two people that, that, uh, there's a certain level of trust that they have built. They've known each other longer than anyone else. And, you know, Negan has done a lot to clean up and try to fix what he's done, but he's always gonna live with the guilt and she'll never forgive him. But we still, I find a way to move past it.

• 27:25Speaker 05

  Most writers have written really terrible stories. The only thing different about me is that I kept them all. And on my brand new show, Character Development, I'm gonna force my very talented actor friends to read them with me. There are teen slashers where every character sounds edgy as hell. There's sci-fi giants that read just a little bit too much like giant penises. And there's a murderer who enjoys musical theater for some reason. Listen to Character Development, a comedy podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:56Speaker 06

  I'm Mandy.

• 27:57Speaker 07

  And I'm Melissa.

• 27:58Speaker 06

  And this is Moms and Mysteries.

• 28:00Speaker 07

  We're two Florida moms obsessed with true crime. From infamous cases like Ellen Greenberg to shocking Florida stories like the Dan Markel killing.

• 28:07Speaker 06

  With 55 million downloads, we bring you new deep dives every Tuesday and Thursday.

• 28:12Speaker 07

  Listen to Moms and Mysteries on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:20Josh Horowitz?

  When you look at like kind of the arc of your life and career, like, do you consider yourself like a late bloomer in a way?

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, certainly.

• 28:26Josh Horowitz?

  Because if you look, I guess, are you doing the math, like Supernatural, grays, you're in mid 30s around there?

• 28:31Speaker 00

  Oh, I was, I think 38 ish, 38 maybe. Uh, but it was so, I got Supernatural, Grey's Anatomy, and Weeds, all at the same time. All like, I mean, within a week of each other.

• 28:50Josh Horowitz?

  After like 10, 15 years of episodic, just like.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  Oh God, just fighting it, you know, um, wanting to quit and, you know, I'd do a pilot every now and again, and, and, you know, guess star spots and, uh, you know, movies that people have never heard of that might take me to Comic Con though. Um, you know, it was.

• 29:08Josh Horowitz?

  Were you, were you having to do side hustles even into your 30s?

• 29:11Speaker 00

  Always, always side hustling. Uh, you know, I would, you know, build fences or whatever. Um, uh, usually it had involved hammers. Uh, you know, there was always something to build for somebody. Um.

• 29:23Josh Horowitz?

  Were you setting like markers? Like if I don't get this by this age?

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Well, here was the problem. And the problem was I was in my mid 30s and I didn't have an education. And I, you know, I didn't know what else to do. I did an episode of, uh, and people have heard me say this before, of one of the Star Treks. I, I don't know which one. Um, but I played a Zindi alien.

• 29:48Josh Horowitz?

  Oh yeah. I looked it up. I saw.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Oh, fuck.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  And I hated it so much that I wanted, I, I was like, that's it. I've gotta do something else.

• 29:57Josh Horowitz?

  You're in that makeup trailer covered by like all this prosthetics.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I just, it was, I remember I was so claustrophobic and not to mention you couldn't eat during, I was in it for 14 hours a day. And, and it just was an experience that I want to forget. And I still wake up sweating about it. Um, but I was like done. But at the same time, I was like, what am I gonna do? Right? Like I don't, I don't know anything else. I had, had a brief career in my Seattle days of, I had moved to New York and I got involved in some graphic art, went back to Seattle and kept doing that and was doing like posters for my friends' rock bands and having like art shows at bars. And I could kind of stay alive that way. I could sell a painting for 300 bucks and

• 30:44Speaker 00

  that would pay my rent for the month. Um, and so I did that, but I had, you know, my dad used to laugh and say, I, you know, I could count a hundred jobs that you've had, not acting jobs, but early in my life that just helped me pay the bills. But I remember being in my mid 30s going, this, uh, this didn't work out. And my manager had just fired me right before I got the three shows. Um, and I'd been with her forever. And she was like, you've aged out, bro.

• 31:12Josh Horowitz?

  You missed, you missed your window.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  And she, she got rid of me and, uh, Max Martini.

• 31:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Who, and at the same time, and both, and said the same thing to both of us. You, you dudes are old. And Max and I are looking at doing a film together right now, in fact. Um, but we still talk about it and we both will never forget that phone call.

• 31:30Josh Horowitz?

  So he's a friend from way back when. I know Billy Burke is also maybe your old acting friend.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  I just talked to Billy Burke today. Yeah.

• 31:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. When I was covering Twilight, I would see Billy Burke a lot.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  Charlie Swan, baby. Charlie Swan. He, uh, he actually texted me last night, a video. And he was at the Chimney Suite Bar in Studio City, California, which is the bar we used to go to thirty years ago. Uh, and my friend Millie worked there then and she still works there now. And so the two of them sent me a video and it was hilarious, but.

• 32:04Josh Horowitz?

  It all worked out.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  It all worked out. And the fact that it worked out for Billy, uh, as well, cause he was a musician in those days in Seattle. You know, he's one of the guys I was making posters for. Uh, and then he, I remember I came to LA and was like, well, I'm gonna try this acting thing. I'd met a casting director and uh, she was like, give it a go. Uh, and then, you know, six months later Billy followed and he kinda had immediate success. He had success far before I did. Um.

• 32:32Josh Horowitz?

  It's funny to look back at kind of like some of those roles you talked about, this kind of like window of time. Like the ones that really like launched you then arguably Supernatural, Greys. They're not leading performances and it's a testament to what you were able to do in relatively small screen time, a supporting character that like had the audience wanting more. That Supernatural character, not on a lot. Everyone's talking about him a lot.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. They talked about him a lot, but I think, I think the first year I did, you know, eight or nine episodes and same with Greys. I think I did like ten or eleven episodes in the first, before I died.

• 33:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Spoiler.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Sorry for the seventeen year olds that are just finding it, which by the way, they are. I walk through like Washington Square Park, you know, NYU and, and I'll get stopped by kids that are just watching Greys for the first time.

• 33:22Josh Horowitz?

  So yeah, we have to talk about Greys, cause that is such a singular thing.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, it's so important to my career. It's really the first step.

• 33:29Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I, look, I wasn't even the core demo, but like you couldn't avoid Denny Duquette and that storyline and Greys. It was the, literally the center of culture for a while.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  It was lightning in a bottle and, and it was that. I mean, that's when, you know, TV was so different and you know, thirty million people a week were tuning in to watch that show.

• 33:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Um, and I went from an unknown nobody to I couldn't leave my house. And it was, I mean, and it happened like that. And, uh.

• 34:00Josh Horowitz?

  And what, what, what a mindfuck that must be for someone, again, that's been doing it for fifteen, twenty years. That's been struggling, begging, he's a reptilian creature on Star Trek and then he can't leave his house.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  You'll never see his face. Yeah. And by the way, it's like a year apart. Um. Yeah. You know, I don't know that it was a mindfuck necessarily because I was so just happy.

• 34:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  Uh, I, I felt like, okay, you know, even if I die in Greys, and I knew that I was dying in Greys, you know, when I got the job. But I also knew that thirty million people a week were, you know, actually I didn't know that that was gonna happen, but um, that I was gonna have a regular job, one. I mean, you know, I was gonna do at least five episodes. Supernatural, I thought I was only doing the one, but I was just happy to be working. I could pay my rent and, and and then as that built and as I, I remember when it all was airing, cause they were all airing at the same time. You know, Greys was airing and Supernatural airing at the same time.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  And it was two totally complete audiences with very little kind of bleed over. But people realized that I could kinda do two things. It was doing two different things. And all of a sudden, where did this actor come from? I mean, it's why Zach cast me in Watchmen and Richard LaGravine Ace cast me in P S I Love You and, and I didn't even audition for that stuff. They just offered after seeing, you know, the two different roles. Um, matter of fact, I haven't auditioned since Greys and anime on anything.

• 35:36Josh Horowitz?

  That's a privilege. That's crazy. Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  And to go from the zindy reptilian again, uh, who was begging for work and hated every second of that, that job. And I remember, I remember those, those years of, you know, six auditions a day during pilot season and all that kinda craziness. Uh, to not auditioning in the last, you know, thirty years or whatever it's been is crazy.

• 36:01Josh Horowitz?

  Was, was there a, a role that you can think of kinda before those that you came close to getting that you thought was gonna change everything? That you were in the, the finals and like, this is gonna be the one?

• 36:15Speaker 00

  I mean, I read for, okay, yeah, Reservoir Dogs. Um.

• 36:18Josh Horowitz?

  Wow. Which role?

• 36:20Speaker 00

  That was Quentin Tarantino ended up doing it. Yeah. Fuckers.

• 36:28Josh Horowitz?

  Beat out by the director.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Oh, I still can't believe it. Um.

• 36:32Josh Horowitz?

  Did you read for him? Who did you read?

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 36:35Josh Horowitz?

  Tell, what do you remember?

• 36:37Speaker 00

  I, I remember everything. Um, because that was the coolest script anybody had ever read at my age at the time and.

• 36:43Josh Horowitz?

  That's a while before all this. That's like, that's like ninety-six or something.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. Everybody wanted it. And it was, it was, that was later than ninety-six.

• 36:51Josh Horowitz?

  Well, no, that.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  Earlier than ninety-six.

• 36:54Josh Horowitz?

  No, it's ninety-two, cause, cause Pulp is ninety-four.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was, cause ninety-six, I was actually doing a show that was on air. Uh, that, you know, did, we did like six episodes or something, but that was a huge gig then too, but I remember going in for Ronnie Yaskel. And then they brought me back and Quentin was there. And, you know, we didn't know who Quentin was.

• 37:17Josh Horowitz?

  Nobody does.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  But he'd written this brilliant fucking script and everybody in town was talking about it. And, and I remember I did the scene and he was like, Quentin, you know, very excited, leaning forward in his chair, doing this whole thing. And I wanna say that I read like Mr. Orange sides, right? Um, I think everybody was kinda reading.

• 37:39Josh Horowitz?

  A little bit of everything.

• 37:40Speaker 00

  Whatever, but you know, whatever were the coolest, biggest scenes where he had people read. And it might've been Mr. Orange, I think it was. And, uh, anyway, he pulled me into this tiny little closet in her office, like a coat closet. I remember getting banged with coats. Closes the door and it's just him and I, and I can't see him. It's total darkness, but he's right here. And I could, I remember I could smell him and he's giving me direction and he's real excited and he's and I'm thinking, oh my God, I'm gonna get this motherfucker. Like, like he's just sounded like I, I felt, I, I felt his excitement. I'm like, this is awesome. And, uh, went out and did the scene again.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  And then I didn't hear anything for a bit and then I got a call from Ronnie Yaskel and she was like, okay, yeah, it looks like you're doing Mr. Brown or whatever the hell it was. Uh, uh, and I was like, and I'm looking at the script and I'm like, he's not in it very much, but fuck, it's still, I don't care. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter. I just, anything. Um. And I remember when I found out, I got the call that I wasn't gonna be in it and it was Quentin doing it. And I was just like, wow.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Like, I mean, you can't get mad. It's like, you know, what are you gonna do?

• 38:58Josh Horowitz?

  And then you see the movie. That must, oh God, that must've been.

• 39:00Speaker 00

  I still, I still, I showed my son that film, uh, recently too. He's, he's big into, you know, film and studying it and made his first like film. And so I'm showing him some of my favorites and, and, uh, I showed him that and kinda told him the same story I just told you. And his eyes got all big, cause he knows obviously Quentin's, you know, track record and resume by now, but um, he'd never seen Reservoir Dogs and, and, you know, I told him he made it for, you know, nothing and you know, all those guys are wearing their own clothes, their own black suits and, yeah. Cause they just didn't have the budget and he was just blown away.

• 39:41Josh Horowitz?

  As he should be. Um.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:43Josh Horowitz?

  So flashing back forward, like so in the wake of Watchmen and all, and these other opportunities. So like off of Watchmen, were you getting in the mix of like, like superhero stuff? Was that coming around?

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, there was. Um, well, I did Losers right after Watchmen. Um, which, you know, still I think has one of the strongest casts in the history.

• 40:04Josh Horowitz?

  It has a fan base. I see people that still.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Yes. People still, I mean, I, I just talked about it this weekend. Um, people still bring it up, especially at like Comic Cons. Uh, as being one of their favorite films. Um, it got lost in this kinda Joel Silver Warner Brothers fight, unfortunately. Uh, and it was the same time that A-Team had came out. They literally came out on the same weekend.

• 40:28Josh Horowitz?

  Only one team can survive, apparently.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  One team could survive.

• 40:31Josh Horowitz?

  Or neither can really survive.

• 40:33Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, they both sort of fucking died. But we just, we just never had a shot. There was no marketing really behind it. Um. And I'm telling you, when we were shooting that, we all thought, you know, that we were gonna do three of them at least, you know? I, we were so excited and the cast was so impressive, you know? Uh, you know, Chris Evans and Idris Elba and Zo.

• 40:56Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my God. You would kill for that cast nowadays.

• 40:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was like the greatest cast ever. I mean, I was the weak spot.

• 41:02Josh Horowitz?

  Stop it.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  Um, but it was an amazing cast and they're all Marvel superheroes now, every single fucking one of them.

• 41:10Josh Horowitz?

  There, there was one that I was looking back, like you talked about way back when of wanting to play Lobo. Was there ever?

• 41:16Speaker 00

  Yes, that was real. Um.

• 41:17Josh Horowitz?

  Was there a real conversation?

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Uh, in fact, that was the producer, uh, yeah, Akiva Goldman, who, uh, did Losers had the rights to Lobo. And so that was, yeah, that was, that was real talk. Uh, and, and, uh, I wanted to do it. Um, fell in love. I had never heard of Lobo. And so, uh, I dove right in and was like, oh yeah, yeah.

• 41:40Josh Horowitz?

  That suits you. I mean, there are very few actors that that would suit.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  It suited my, my humor and my sarcasm, all that. It didn't suit my body.

• 41:52Speaker 00

  But I was like, I got time. I got a year to get big. Um, but it just, it just never came to be.

• 41:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  That was.

• 41:59Josh Horowitz?

  Did it ever get to a script stage or like a real like?

• 42:01Speaker 00

  Uh, there was a script floating around that, that needed work. Um, but you know, that was, that would happen. I think Warner Brothers coming off of Watchmen and losers and wasn't having a great time with.

• 42:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  DC. Um, maybe Jeffrey Dean at the same time. Now that I think about it, maybe we shouldn't bet too much on this dude. Um.

• 42:25Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you do get an opportunity working again with Zach for a little, a little bit part in BBS, obviously to play Thomas Wayne.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:32Josh Horowitz?

  And like, I know you've been asked about this and you've talked about it and Zach's talked about.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  Flashpoint.

• 42:36Josh Horowitz?

  How real was that? How, did Zach really talk to you about Flashpoint?

• 42:39Speaker 00

  There was more. I mean, Zach, Zach's like, cause I remember when he called me to do the role and I was like, well, it's just, you know, it's not, it's really nothing.

• 42:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  And he's like, I got bigger plans. And I was like, well, Zach.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  What does that mean, man? Um, he's like, just, can you just trust me? And I'm like, oh, of course. Yes. And, and I'm gonna do it even without this incentive of there's more. Um. And, and I think we did have a conversation. Uh, we talked, I remember we started talking about Batman, him and I together. On the press tour for Watchmen and he was like, I would love to see you play Batman. And I was like, bro.

• 43:22Josh Horowitz?

  Don't even tease.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Don't, yeah, stop, stop. I'm gonna have a fucking heart attack right now. Um, and so I knew, I, I, I sure, I knew what it was and, and.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  You know, we would look at each other and we, and I think at one point he like had looked over and just said, Flashpoint. And I was like, oh, fuck, god damn it. So like, I almost like don't wanna hear it.

• 43:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right. And so it's real. Don't even tease.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  But there was so much, you know, immediate fan speculation.

• 43:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Um, everybody's so smart these days and knows that world so well. And, and you know, I was so shocked that. It was Zach and Warner Brothers and, and that it didn't work out. Cause I, I mean, I love his stuff and I love that he leans toward the darkness. Not that I don't love Gunn. I do.

• 44:12Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Um, I, I mean, I really like Gunn. Um, I was supposed to do a movie with, with him as well. About a serial killer. It wasn't even a superhero film. Um, but both guys I love, but you know, Zach was so versed in. I mean, he knew this world, I thought better than any, I mean, you know him.

• 44:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  He just.

• 44:33Josh Horowitz?

  No, he loves the iconography. It's just like, it's, it's in his bones.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's in his bones. He, he, he bleeds it. Um, and, but you know, I just, I just read some announcement that he was gonna do a new version of Escape from New York.

• 44:47Josh Horowitz?

  I saw that.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Bro.

• 44:49Josh Horowitz?

  Wait a second.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Don't think I'm not texting him or calling him. I am. I, I got a.

• 44:53Josh Horowitz?

  Snake Plissken? Come on.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  I mean, I think that Snake will probably be a little younger than I am, but you know, there's some roles in that.

• 45:02Josh Horowitz?

  A grizzled snake.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, a grizzled snake wouldn't be bad, by the way. You know, it would, it would be cool. Look, I'm, I'm gonna do my due diligence and, and stalk him for a little bit. Cause that's one of my all time favorite films. I mean, come on, man. We grew up in a time when.

• 45:18Josh Horowitz?

  Of course. You should start wearing, just got an iPad, just walking around.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  I might. That's not a bad idea. That's not a bad idea.

• 45:27Josh Horowitz?

  Jeffrey, like, has he lost his mind? Nope.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  Send him some selfies of, I'm just trying this out. What do you think? Anything?

• 45:33Josh Horowitz?

  Workshopping.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  Thoughts, thoughts?

• 45:36Josh Horowitz?

  I support it.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 45:38Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, a couple, a couple more things I wanna hit. It's too many things, man. Um, you did reteam with Kripke. He came calling.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, he came calling, but really I came, I came on social media when I, when the boys first hit and was like, oh my god.

• 45:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  I, I'd never seen anything like it. And, and he, uh, I think he got wind or saw a post and like. Twitted me back or whatever. I think it was on Twitter. Uh, and, and then he called and he's like, you wanna do something? This was like for year two. Uh, and then it happened again in year three and always my schedule with Walking Dead.

• 46:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Was in the way. Uh, and then finally, um, you know, it, I had an option to do a couple of roles.

• 46:23Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, really?

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Would have been really fun and I won't say what, but.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  What could have been, you know? It was just always schedule wise is tough. Um.

• 46:33Josh Horowitz?

  But you're very good at playing hallucinations. We know that from Bray's in this. So this is your wheelhouse.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  That was the only thing about it. I was like, damn it, it's gonna be another, another person that's not really there. Um, but I did have so much fun. Uh, working with Carl. I mean, he was a guy that, where we just had an instant, and I'd known him a little bit for years. Um, but we had an instant chemistry that, that was kinda undeniable and fun and it really worked with these two roles. Uh, and then playing together and, I mean, we had a blast. I, I just, I, I couldn't say enough about it. And, and so, yeah, Kripke. You know, thank god.

• 47:14Josh Horowitz?

  It's good to have folks like Zach and Kripke in your corner, like.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that, that corner keeps growing, you know, cause like that, the, the boys world is a, a world of, you know, those guys that I didn't know going into. Other than Kripke. So, you know, we'll see. There's, there's always something, right?

• 47:32Josh Horowitz?

  Well, there's also Invincible, which we have to talk about. I just had JK here, JK Simmons.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:37Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, the fans of Invincible.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Come on. I mean, I love him. Uh, you know, he was a next door neighbor when I last lived in LA. We lived like a block from each other. And I used to see him all the time. He was much, I, I think I had just been Denny and John Winchester at that point. Uh, I didn't live in LA very long. Once I, once I started to work, I was out. You know, I met, I met my wife and, and she didn't wanna live in LA. And the next thing you know, we're living in a cabin in the woods. So, bah. Uh, so I didn't get to actually get to hang out with JK. And unfortunately, when you're doing a show like Invincible, you don't work with people.

• 48:15Josh Horowitz?

  Did you ever reteam with Steven on that or no? Are you ever together?

• 48:18Speaker 00

  No, no, never together. I would love to be. Um, I just don't think that that's how they do it. Uh, at least on this show. I know sometimes they do. Uh, but I think this show, they, they kind of keep everybody apart. Um, I never even heard Steven's voice when I was doing my stuff. So. It was just, but I would have, you know, Kirkman and the director and you know, like the, the whole bunch of like, uh, whoever, Amazon people. Uh, on Zoom and I would just do it here. And I've never worked harder. A couple of, that the last scene. Of whatever season, when I'm first introduced, that fight scene, it takes up the whole episode. I've never been sweatier in my life than, than I wa, I've never been more stressed out.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  I was like, oh my god, these, I felt like I had, you know.

• 49:07Josh Horowitz?

  You got your workout.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a full on workout.

• 49:10Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you, that's, that must be fun as, as far as voice acting goes to like really lean in and really just like be.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  It is.

• 49:16Josh Horowitz?

  You think Negan's evil.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:18Josh Horowitz?

  Conquest doesn't be.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, Conquest is great. And you know, and when he wrote that, he wrote that speech for me that wasn't in the comic book. Um, where Conquest kind of.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I saw you nodding. You know the one I'm talking about. Uh, and I'm trying, I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember. Uh, exactly what it was, but it kinda shows that Conquest has his vulnerability and he has no friends and all this shit, right? And Kirkman wrote that just for me. Um, because I was doing the role and you know, I have this innate ability to do. Characters that are horrible, but let's humanize them just a little bit to confuse the audience. Like, I don't know whether I like them or not.

• 49:58Josh Horowitz?

  Weird about this. Why do I like this guy?

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Why do I suddenly feel for this fucker? Um, and, uh, that was my favorite speech to give. Um. So we'll see what happens with Invincible, you know?

• 50:10Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, is there more on, that sounds like a tease?

• 50:14Speaker 00

  It could be a tease.

• 50:16Josh Horowitz?

  Let's tease a couple of other things. You're in Sterling Point.

• 50:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:19Josh Horowitz?

  Megan Park, I'm a big fan and my old ass was such an emotional, oh my god, that movie's great.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  This show is so good. I watched, uh, I watched all eight episodes last week. Um. I should have been like prepping for Comic Con, but instead they sent it to me and I was like, oh, you know, I'll watch the first episode and then I had my son do a scene. And my son got to do a scene with me in this show and I'll slip to episode five or whatever it was and watch the scene with him. I watched the first episode and was full on hooked. Started at eight o'clock at night, four in the morning. I'm like pissed that it's done. I'm like, oh my god, this is. It's so good and the actors in it are so, these young actors, that Megan has this innate ability not only to.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  Be this brilliant writer of this generation, but her ability to cast, holy shit.

• 51:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  I mean, I, I can't wait for people to see it. I'm, I'm very proud of it. I'm very proud of her. I talked to her last night as well. Um, I thought I was doing this kinda young adult show that I would never watch, but it really plays for, I think, an, an older audience. Um, really well.

• 51:26Josh Horowitz?

  Boss in there too. You got.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  Who's brilliant. Jay is, I've known Mark forever and didn't really know Jay and he's great. And Missy Pyle, who's wonderful. Um, but those, that's the it for the adult crowd. Um, the rest are kids who are just so good. They're so good that. I, I was left with my mouth agape, I think, uh, watching the show and how good these actors were. I mean, they don't have any credits and they are. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. The two main girls, I, I just, I couldn't say enough about.

• 52:01Josh Horowitz?

  And talk about unexpected, um, you know, gifts. Like I imagine if I talked to you a few years ago and you're hosting something like Destination X, you would have been like, what the fuck are you talking about?

• 52:10Speaker 00

  I still don't fucking get it.

• 52:12Josh Horowitz?

  Season two is greenlit. I don't know if you shot it yet.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Just shot it. Uh, just, just go back. Um, and I think it's gonna be really a, a great year. Uh.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  You know what I didn't know about these shows is I didn't know they just used the same cast of different shows and pulling all these kind of reality

• 52:31Josh Horowitz?

  Oh sure.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Superstars.

• 52:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  And so, we had to get the show to be much smarter this year because you have these guys that are all gamers. We had like four non-gamers and then a bunch of people that I just call gamers. They were on shows like, you know, Traitors or The Bachelor, you know, reality, I shouldn't call gamers, but they come knowing and they're prepared to play a game. For sure, Survivor, um, and, uh, it was fun, but it really, I have to be on my toes.

• 53:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  Cause they're, they're just, they're on it.

• 53:07Josh Horowitz?

  And calls upon a different skillset, I would imagine for you.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I still don't know what I'm doing. I'm fighting it constantly.

• 53:12Josh Horowitz?

  I think you got it.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a, it's a battle. Uh, I still think NBC fucked up with my casting, but, um, that being said, you know, it's, it's, it's fun. I, we shoot the whole show in a month and, and, uh, I get to go to places that, yeah, yeah. And I, I see the world. I've gotten to travel all over the place. Um, I'm in it, or I shot a hell of a lot more this season than I did the first season. I'm on camera a lot more. Um, and, and that's probably good and bad, uh, but it was, it was cool and I, and went to some really great places. I can't tell you where, cause I don't want to give away anything, but it was really cool.

• 53:53Josh Horowitz?

  And then you get to come home back to the city and upstate. You got the place, you got the farm still. How, how many dogs, how many animals up there now?

• 54:00Speaker 00

  I just lost, you know, Bandit, who I'd had, I got during losers. He just, uh, he just, uh, well, I mean, he was 17 years old. That's when losers was, how about that? Uh, uh, so, I mean, we've been knowing it was gonna happen. We still have two dogs. We just got a frigging cat. Uh, I'm allergic, but my daughter's been begging for one and, and we broke down for her birthday and got a cat. Uh, this in the house, not a barn cat. And then, uh, you know, an array of, I've probably got 30 odd animals from around the farm, yeah.

• 54:36Josh Horowitz?

  You know, my, my other passion project now is I do a show called Who's a Good Guest? Where I talk to actors and their dogs.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  No way. Oh, you should have me and Irwin, my three-legged other Puerto Rican rescue in.

• 54:47Josh Horowitz?

  Can we book you? Cause I'm, I'll come to Rhinebeck.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  I'm in, I'm in, whatever. We can go wherever, we, uh, we, yeah, we'd love to.

• 54:55Josh Horowitz?

  I love it.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  Are you kidding me?

• 54:57Josh Horowitz?

  We end every Happy Sad Confused with our profoundly random questions. Ready for these?

• 55:01Speaker 00

  I am.

• 55:02Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I think I know the answer to the first one. Dogs or cats?

• 55:05Speaker 00

  Dogs, all the way. I mean, not that I, I actually have fallen in love with this cat, just because she walks up my dogs and whacks them. And she's just a little thing, but already rules the house. Um, but I'm, I'm a dog guy.

• 55:16Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect?

• 55:20Speaker 00

  I'm trying to think, what do I collect? Well, I, this is gonna sound so fucking horrible.

• 55:26Josh Horowitz?

  It's okay, you've earned it.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  I like, I like watches and I like, I like motorcycles and cars.

• 55:32Josh Horowitz?

  It's on brand, it's okay. You get away with it.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  It's really on brand. Uh, it is on brand, uh, but, um, yeah.

• 55:41Josh Horowitz?

  We forgive you. Favorite video game of all time? Can be old school, can be back.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  You know what? It's, it's Minecraft. Yeah, yeah, it is. Um, when my son was just a little punk, uh, I remember being so thrilled that he'd found a, a game that I thought was a cool game that he wasn't losing brain cells playing. And he still plays it at 16. My daughter plays it. I will play it occasionally. I'm not good, um, but I love that world and I love that you can create or you can go into, you know, non-creative mode and fight walkers or zombies, like I say zombies now. Uh, I forget, I, I always am like told not to say the word zombies.

• 56:24Josh Horowitz?

  That's so funny.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I hate it, cause I'm like, it's zombies, man, that's what they are. Walkers.

• 56:31Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, the Dakota Johnson memorial question she asked me, I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 56:39Speaker 00

  I'll take the one bee in the butt.

• 56:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, without a question. I've been stung a lot of times. Not in the butt.

• 56:45Josh Horowitz?

  There's a first time for everything.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not gonna ask more about what in the butt means, but it sounds bad.

• 56:52Josh Horowitz?

  That, that's not too. What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 56:55Speaker 00

  It's my daughter and dog. Yeah. George and Irwin.

• 56:59Josh Horowitz?

  Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 57:02Speaker 00

  It's always, well, I get Robert Downey sometimes, but it's usually Javier Bardem.

• 57:07Josh Horowitz?

  Do you ever, do you always correct or you just sign the?

• 57:09Speaker 00

  I have not corrected Javier, people before Javier, people before, because some of them only speak Spanish and they will be talking to me so fast. And I used to sit there and get in arguments with them and say, no, I'm not, uh, and now I just sign Javier.

• 57:24Josh Horowitz?

  Those are probably very valuable. The fake Javier.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  There's a couple of them out there, man. Um, I saw an interview, I want to say last year of him, kinda saying the same shit, uh, about me. And it was, it was funny that we, we, he gets mistaken for me a lot and, uh, it's very sweet.

• 57:42Josh Horowitz?

  It's good company to be in.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I take it every day.

• 57:45Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 57:49Speaker 00

  Man, you know what the note I hate is always to, um, speed it up. I, I fucking hate that note. And everybody says it. I'm like, speed it up in the edit then, you know?

• 57:59Josh Horowitz?

  Just put it on 1.25.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  I'm always like, let a scene, I'm always trying to find places to let a scene breathe. Look, I know I gotta get through this scene in a certain amount of time. I'm well aware. Um, but if I take a pause, it's probably because I'm acting, you know?

• 58:14Josh Horowitz?

  I'm thinking.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 58:15Josh Horowitz?

  Hadger's thinking.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  That's exactly right. Um, so whenever I hear speed it up, you will lose me as a, as a director.

• 58:22Josh Horowitz?

  You go the other way.

• 58:22Speaker 00

  There's other ways you can approach somebody to have them do something different, but to just say, speed it up has always made my skin kinda crinkle.

• 58:31Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, in the spirit of Happy Sad Confused, who's an actor who always makes you happy? See them on screen, you're in a better mood.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Uh, Bobby Duvall.

• 58:39Josh Horowitz?

  Great. Movie that makes you sad?

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Brian's Home.

• 58:44Josh Horowitz?

  Nice. And a food that makes you confused?

• 58:49Speaker 00

  A food that makes me confused?

• 58:51Josh Horowitz?

  You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 58:53Speaker 00

  No, I get the question. I'm just trying to think if there's a food that, that, I mean, look, there's all the, you know, the monkey brains or some, you know, there's some kinda like crazy stuff that I, I don't wanna touch, but I'm, I've always tried to, if I'm traveling or whatever, to try new things and experience a little bit of everything, experience a culture and, and so I don't have any foods that really freak me out, but I don't wanna eat like bugs and, you know what I mean? I mean, I have.

• 59:25Josh Horowitz?

  But now you know enough.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Sometimes on purpose, sometimes not on purpose, um, but it, it's not enjoyable.

• 59:32Josh Horowitz?

  No, I get it. I get it. All right. So we are plugging today, a lot of things. Destination X, we don't know when it's happening, but season two.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  I think that's next year. I wanna say that's next year, yeah.

• 59:39Josh Horowitz?

  By the time people, uh, listen and watch this, Throwing Point on Prime, you're very proud of that one in the young cast.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  I'm very proud of that one. I think that, uh, I think folks are gonna love it. Yeah, I'm really proud of it and Megan and this cast, yeah.

• 59:51Josh Horowitz?

  And of course, uh, Walking Dead continues and congratulations on all the great reviews. Like, I mean, it's hard, like, as you well know, like, this many years in to kind of like surprise people and reiterate, so congrats all around.

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  I'm telling you, I just, uh, right before I came in here, I was going through, I got an email from AMC, uh, and it was, you know, a, a thing that I don't know they're gonna send out or whatever, but it's kind of like headlines of, of reviews and, and, uh, I, I was like fucking stunned. Uh, it's unbelievable. Um, you know, the, the kind of reinventing of this show, it's fucking working. I mean, and yeah, it's great having nice reviews. Usually, usually I don't read them and this year I'm like, well, I might, I might have to fucking take a look at that one.

• 1:00:35Josh Horowitz?

  Send those to Norman, make him even more jealous.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  I don't want that. I'd, he's still mad that he wasn't at Comic Con. You kidding me?

• 1:00:42Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I'm so glad this happened, man. You're always a blast to talk to. You're welcome anytime. Um, congratulations on all the success. Don't be so self-deprecating. You've earned your place in pop culture, man. You're, you're always killing it.

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  It's weird. It's a weird deal. I thank you so much for having me and what a, what a thrill and, uh, an honor to be here.

• 1:01:01Josh Horowitz?

  We'll see with the dogs soon.

• 1:01:03Speaker 00

  Anytime. Fucking anytime. Now that's a podcast I'll do. We were just talking about, what kind of podcasts do you do? You with my puppy? Come on, man. All day long. Yeah, that's, we have like a three hour window there.

• 1:01:18Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks, buddy. I appreciate you.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  All right, I appreciate you.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  And so ends another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't, should do this by Josh.

• 1:01:39Speaker 05

  Steve Kubine and Nan McNamara's podcast from beneath the Hollywood sign.

• 1:01:44Josh Horowitz?

  Mary Astor has been keeping a diary. Mary writes everything down. And so, this torrid affair with Georges Kaufman is chronicled on a daily basis. In great detail. And I pulls out a box and gives McCallister a ring saying, here's something to remember me by. This article caused Daryl Zanuck to hit the roof. Actress Ruth Roman followed that up with playing a foil to Betty Davis in Beyond the Forest. I mean, if you can stand toe to toe with her. And she does, because she plays the daughter of the man that Betty Davis kills out on the hunting trip. And it's directed by King Vidor, so he's no slouch. Speaking of the Oscars, talking about what I call beginner's luck, the actors and actresses

• 1:02:28Josh Horowitz?

  who won an Oscar on their very first film.

• 1:02:31Speaker 05

  Get your fix of old Hollywood from Stephen Ann on the podcast from beneath the Hollywood sign.