James Gunn, Vol. II

James Gunn takes a break from being one of the busiest men in showbiz (running the creative for the DCU!) to chat with Josh about CREATURE COMMANDOS, SUPERMAN, BATMAN, and so much more. SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Uncommon Goods – Visit UncommonGoods.com/podcast/HappySad for 15% off BetterHelp -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BetterHelp.com/HSC ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for 10% off UPCOMING LIVE EVENTS 12/18 – Billy Eichner at 92Y in NY – Tickets here 12/19 -- Ben Schwartz at 92Y in NY -- ⁠Tickets here Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:28Speaker 01

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• 0:57Speaker 02

  I was at the Superman premiere. Yeah. And somebody came up to me and said, somebody said, "Are you Zack Snyder?"

• 1:12Speaker 02

  I was like, "No." And she's like, "You're not?" And I'm like, "No." You know, I don't, I'm not. Sorry.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:30Josh Horowitz?

  I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy, Sad, Confused, James Gunn is back. From Guardians of the Galaxy to the Suicide Squad, this man knows his way around misfit teams. And with Creature Commandos, he's hit the trifecta. This is a fantastic new series on Max and represents the beginning of a new era for DC Studios, which by the way, he's leading alongside Peter Safran. Not to mention, he's also the writer-director of Next Summer Superman. We'll get to that in a little bit, but here he is, the busiest man in showbiz. Eat your heart out, James Brown. It's Mr. James Gunn. How you doing, man?

• 2:01Speaker 02

  Hey, good to see you. Glad to be here.

• 2:05Josh Horowitz?

  I appreciate you.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  I am happy and sad and confused, so it's perfect.

• 2:09Josh Horowitz?

  It never has my podcast title been more apropos to the times we're living in, right? But let's focus on the positive. Your show is fantastic. Before I get to specifics specifically about that, how are the hell are you balancing your life? Because you have a few jobs that you are balancing. You're in the middle of Peacemaker. Have you found it easy, difficult, challenging to kind of figure out what life is the last two years?

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I found it difficult. And my wife is right over here. And I know she's thinking she's giggling at you even using the word balancing in regards to me because it's not a part of what's happening these days. I think we've I think I wrote 650 pages one year, and then this year, we've produced 650 pages of material. So that's Creature Commandos, Superman, and Peacemaker, season two. So it's been busy. Yeah, it is productive. I'm really excited about everything coming up. So that's all been worth it. I will never do it again.

• 3:13Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you are. I mean, you've been look, you've been living this life a while, but you are eat you're eating, sleeping, and breathing DC 24/7, I would imagine, which is it's a privilege, but it's it's a weight I can imagine. Um, okay, so it's typical. So, okay, segueing into Creature Commandos. Can we start with this? I am a dog lover. I am I am I'm a big pet owner. And this is something that has permeated throughout your work, your love of of pets, of creatures, of animals. What did you grew up with animals in your life? Can you talk a little bit about how that's informed your work?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Always. I've always had animals around me. I've always loved animals. I will say that animals are literally my favorite thing in the world. And dogs are my favorite thing among animals. So yeah, I love I love animals. And that includes, you know, human-like weasels as well.

• 4:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right. So has specific animals in your life, pets, informed, whether it's weasel, or rocket, or crypto, throughout the work?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, obviously, you know, I've written crypto is influenced by my dog, Ozzy, who's the worst dog in the world. And now we get to see the worst super dog in the world. My, you know, rocket, you know, was his mouth was molded after my dog, Wesley, you know, his, his eyes were based on, you know, you know, him and Groot, his eyes were they were both, you know, influenced by Wesley's eyes, you know? Yeah, that's always been a, I love animals. I wrote Scooby Doo, you know?

• 4:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  So it's, it's like I've just, I love, I love dogs. I was raised as, you know, I have six kids in my family, but I'm the oldest of six and I was raised alongside a little terrier mutt named Shawnee, who was like my first sister, my first sibling, and I think we sort of imprinted on each other. And I, I guess I just relate to dogs as much as I do to humans.

• 5:11Josh Horowitz?

  There's also something that I feel like you, like Guillermo, Tim Burton could like teach like a masterclass, like a try, a tri-headed masterclass on kind of the love of the outsider slash monster slash creature. And that, that, that, I think goes hand in hand a little bit with what we're talking about.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think very much like Guillermo, I think that I grew up loving Universal Horror Films, which I'd watch on Saturdays at my home as a child. And I loved those, those, the tale of the monsters. And it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't because I like horror movies necessarily, it wasn't because I like being scared. I liked the tale of these monstrous creatures who I related to for some reason. I thought The Creature from the Black Lagoon was the saddest movie ever made as a child. Like, it just seemed really sad. I loved King Kong. I still remember seeing, you know, the first King Kong on TV when I was very young. I loved it. I just, I was so excited. Every time King Kong was on the air and it would play like once a year on whatever,

• 6:11Speaker 02

  uh, it was like a Christmas day to me. Um, yeah, I love those monsters, those creatures.

• 6:17Josh Horowitz?

  And now you get to play with a bunch of them and some iconic ones, some, some we've never heard or most people have never heard of, and some that are just ingrained in us. I mean, for instance, they get to play with the bride in Frankenstein. Must be a guess.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that's, that's part of what, I mean, I love Mary Shelley's novel. I love the original Frankenstein. I love the fact that that was where really horror was created, right?

• 6:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  And to be able to play with those iconic characters in a way that, you know, isn't just based on the comic book versions of them. It's based on Mary Shelley's, the original text. Um, and yes, it's through our own strange lens of, you know, mutants and mercenaries. But it was, uh, it really was inspired by Mary Shelley's original version.

• 6:59Josh Horowitz?

  So when we, um, when we caught up recently, uh, near Comic Con, we have this wonderful panel with much of your cast out there. I think a lot of people were pleasantly surprised by how passionate, not to say you were gonna come on stage and be like, oh, this is just something we like dashed off, but like that you wrote all of these, that you feel as close to this as you do anything you've done. Um, are you surprised by this, the process? Because, you know, it's, it's a different kind of thing. Like you're, you know,

• 7:26Speaker 02

  I think I'm surprised by it because I, it was just the best creative. I mean, I said it on the panel that day, but I think it's probably the best creative experience I've had in terms of not directing something. Right. Because, you know, in the past, you know, I was, I was, I've been a screenwriter and just a screenwriter and turned over projects to other people. And then sometimes seen the first cut of something and wanted to kill myself. Other times I was a screenwriter and also a producer as I've been on television shows and things like that. And that is really difficult for me because I'm, I'm a meddling guy and I just want to take, just do it all myself. Right. Um, and so this was something in which I turned those stories over to, you

• 8:11Speaker 02

  know, to Bobby Pills and, and, you know, Warner Brothers Animation and Dean Laurie and they, they, you know, and we, and I made it clear, you know, follow the, the stat, the text completely. Don't veer off of any of this. Not the dialogue, not the, the screen directions. This is the Bible. Like that's, you gotta start. And they did. But within that, they added so much to it that seeing every cut was so joyful for me. It was like, ah, I'd come over home after a hard day of shooting Superman and just really working, you know, you know, from morning until night. And I'd get to watch a new cut of one of these episodes and I go, wow, this is, this is cool,

• 8:54Speaker 02

  man. This is fun. This is what I think some other people feel like when they turn over their writing to somebody that

• 8:59Josh Horowitz?

  This is what we've been trying to do all these years. Does that open you up? Does it open you a little bit going forward to being? I don't know if it's particular to animation or the team you assembled here, but.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  I'll be honest, I felt the same thing with Greg Mottola and peace doing Peacemaker season two and Greg Mottola you know, episodes two and three and it was a very similar thing. I was like, wow. You know, Greg is, you know, there are some things I do better than Greg and some things Greg does better than me, but like there's things in that episode that are like, wow, that's really cool. I would have never thought of that. And he understands the characters so well. It was, uh, it's, it's, it was a joy.

• 9:44Josh Horowitz?

  What, did you grow up on, on cartoons? Like what, what did you, what animation did you love? I mean, were you a Super Friends kid or what were you into?

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yes, that's it. Super. I mean, all those sort of Saturday. I mean, I was just a Saturday morning kids show guy. So like I'd wake up at six o'clock every Saturday morning. We'd watch Davy and Goliath, if you remember that at all, about the stop motion animation Bible stories. And we, we start with that because that was on really early.

• 10:12Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  And then we just watch everything. Doctor Shrinker and H R Puff and stuff and the Super Friends and Scooby Doo, of course. Um, and I think that's really where that was my favorite time of the week was Saturday mornings. And then, you know, my favorite time of the year was when the new, new fall lineup came, or I guess, I guess it would have been fall. Yeah.

• 10:35Josh Horowitz?

  I know. I miss those times. I remember like the, the fat like TV guide with like the fall preview issue and just like going through.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Oh my God, so excited. Yeah. All these new shows. I'd highlight, you know? And then you would get bummed out when you wanted to watch this show and this show and they were on at the same time.

• 10:50Josh Horowitz?

  It's impossible.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  You're younger, but for me, there was no way at all. This was before VHS. This was in the, you know, this was in the seventies. So like, there was no way for me to watch. You know, Happy Days and the Man from Atlantis at the same time I was screwed. I'd have to make a choice and it would be Man from Atlantis every time, let me tell you.

• 11:11Josh Horowitz?

  So, correct me if I'm wrong, have you ever written animation before? Is this the first time?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  No, no, that was part of the, the draw to this, you know, I, Peter Girardi, this was before I was ahead of DC, so, uh, Peter Girardi from Warner Brothers Animation, uh, was like, hey, you want to do something animation? I'm like, sure. He's like, what do you want to do? I said, ah, you know, I thought about it a little bit. I said, I think I want to do this creature command of things. He was like, okay. And then I went off and I, and I, you know, started writing the episodes and they were basically written by the time I took on DC. So that's why the first thing in the DCU was well planned out reason.

• 11:48Josh Horowitz?

  Who, who do you connect to most on this team? I mean, we know from Guardians, you always talked about Rocket being your way in, but is there one in particular that you really connect with here?

• 11:56Speaker 02

  It's not quite the same. I mean, the Bride's a protagonist, so I think in a lot of ways I really feel for the Bride. I think she's the most balanced of all the characters. You know, Phosphorus has, I have certain personality things and, and, you know, like Phosphorus, I really do. He is, it is a terrible thing to say about one of the worst characters on the show, but you know, he talks the most like me probably of, of everybody. You know, uh, yeah, and, and I've always wanted to tell Weasel's story, but yeah, I think the, the Bride is the one who's the most,

• 12:35Speaker 02

  you know, just dejected, um, but not, not a bad person or monster in this case.

• 12:42Josh Horowitz?

  So, so, but we're gonna, we're gonna run this, I think, the day the first two episodes drop. And we've hinted at this, I think, even on the Comic Con panel. Tell me if you don't want to say this, but like episode four in particular, really threw me like, I mean, that's, that's an amazing piece of writing. That's like one of the best things you've ever written, I would say, sir. I mean, like,

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Oh, that's, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's been, that's, I've been holding on to that for, that story for a long time. So it's, it's cool to finally see it come to fruition. It was also something that we worked really hard on, like that was one that the animation came in. I said, okay, guys, that's really good, but it can be better by this and doing this. And we really broke it down and kept pushing and kept pushing and kept pushing. Cause I knew we had something special with that episode. That and Seven, I think are the, my two favorite episodes.

• 13:25Josh Horowitz?

  Are you okay in saying what for revolves around or no? You don't want to keep it-

• 13:29Speaker 02

  It's a round weasel. Yeah.

• 13:30Josh Horowitz?

  It's a round weasel. Right, right, right, right, right.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Giving depth to the dumbest character ever in the DCU.

• 13:35Josh Horowitz?

  Right, which is a challenge and yeah, it just so works.

• 13:44Josh Horowitz?

  If I had a dollar for everybody in my life who's benefited from therapy, I would be a very, very rich man. Therapy has certainly helped me, especially when I was a confused teenager. And thankfully, that's not a shameful thing to say anymore, right? It's okay to seek help and need help and talk about it. We're all doing our best. We're just trying to get by, right, guys? Unfortunately, the reality is that getting help is still harder than it should be. That's why I'm thrilled always to have Rula as a sponsor of Happy Say Confused, because it's very obvious to me that online therapy should be both accessible and affordable for everybody. So let's make it easy for anybody who wants help to get help. That's where Rula comes in. Here's the thing, a lot of online therapy platforms don't actually talk about. Most don't take insurance.

• 14:29Josh Horowitz?

  That means you're either paying out of pocket or signing up for some very expensive monthly subscription. Rula does it all differently. They work with over 120 insurance plans, so the average copay, I can't get over this, it's just 15 bucks a session. So basically two of your lattes, okay? A pretty good deal if you ask me. That means you can get real therapy from a licensed professional without breaking the bank. And Rula doesn't just set you up and leave you alone. They give you that therapist and then they're along the way, the whole journey with you, to make sure your care is working for you and you're actually making progress, hitting your goals. This can all happen right away, guys. With Rula, appointments are often available as soon as tomorrow. There are no wait lists. There's no frustrating back and forth. They make it easy.

• 15:11Josh Horowitz?

  Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com/happy to get started. That's rula, R-U-L-A dot com slash happy. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. You guys know the best stuff in your closet is the stuff that you actually wear, right? The things that you just keep coming back to, whether you're going to work, you're going out, you're just hanging around. Well, with the holidays coming up, Quince makes it really easy to find great gifts for everyone on your list. This year, I'm doing a lot of my holiday shopping at Quince, and yes, that includes a few things for myself. That's okay, right? One of the things I love about Quince is that you're getting really high-quality stuff without spending a fortune.

• 15:53Josh Horowitz?

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• 16:38Josh Horowitz?

  I've got a cashmere hoodie that is honestly invaluable and actually makes me look like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to fashion, and that is a miracle. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. It's now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you've heard about them, you know what to do. Let them know it was happy, sad, confused. That's the best way to support our show. Again, we talked a little bit about some of these flashback structure stories. Some are origin stories, some are just moments in their lives.

• 17:22Josh Horowitz?

  I'm just curious, like, do you have a favorite origin story, just generally speaking, in the superhero pantheon?

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, frankly, Batman's story is great, you know?

• 17:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  And I like it when the robber never gets caught. I think that it makes more sense of the robber, you know, if the robber is always out there and that Batman's, you know, search for justice is an unquenchable search to right the wrongs of his childhood trauma that he'll never be able to do.

• 17:53Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  So I really, I really love, uh, yeah, I really love Batman's, Batman's origin in terms of a simple story. There's also something really beautiful about Spider-Man's story, frankly, simply because of the with, with great, you know, great power comes great responsibility line, which, you know, it's, um, but I think that in terms of the actual core of the origin story is, is Batman is the ultimate origin story.

• 18:18Josh Horowitz?

  If only we'd ever seen it depicted on film. They, they have to show it one of these days.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Someday, someone will show it. They, someone will, I imagine a string of pearls.

• 18:28Josh Horowitz?

  And maybe a close up on them. Yeah, exactly.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:32Josh Horowitz?

  Do you promise me in your tenure in DC, we're not going to see it again, the, the origin story of Batman? Can you promise that?

• 18:39Speaker 02

  I don't want to promise it, but I would, that would, I would, I'm, I'm, I have no plans on it. I'll say that much. I have no plans being, uh, is, back, you know, I, I am myself sick of seeing both Superman and Batman's and Spider-Man's, those three. I'm sick of seeing those three origin stories. I don't need to see them again for a long time. But you know, somebody can come along and surprise me and do it in a way that's cool. You know, you just never.

• 19:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. The perspective of the pearls. Um, let's talk about, let's talk about the cast here. Uh, you've assembled, um, an amazing group here. Some folks you've worked with before. Sean, of course, Maria Bakalova, you did recently. And then there are folks like David Harbour and Frank Grillo. Um, Frank's been in the orbit. It sounds like you guys have been talking for a while. Have you talked about specific?

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Frank, Frank and I met at, we did a big, um, all of the people in Marvel did some, we did some sort of photograph in Atlanta a few years ago where it was everybody that was involved in Marvel. And, uh, it was the, uh, most crazy collection of egos that you've ever seen. And but Frank and I piled up there and became became kind of buddies and I had just seen his TV show Kingdom, which if you've never seen, everyone should go watch because it's it's amazing story about a family of of UFC fighters and Frank is amazing in the show. He's just incredible.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  And so we wanted to work together since that time and have talked about it on and off. And as soon as I got this job, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, I know what I'm gonna do with you. And so, yeah, he shows up here, he shows up in Superman, he shows up in Peacemaker, season two in a big way.

• 20:24Josh Horowitz?

  So we know, obviously, an economist, we'll see in Peacemaker. Do we know without revealing, I assume you're not gonna say it, but like, do you know any of these other characters and when they're gonna pop up elsewhere in the DCU?

• 20:37Speaker 02

  I gotta be honest, I, I, you know, I have a couple of ideas about some people, but basically, right now, it's it's Rick and Economos. And yeah, basically, right now, for sure, those two.

• 20:50Josh Horowitz?

  Got it. Talk to me a little bit about, you know, I referenced this in the intro, you've written some of these of these great misfit teams before. So you very much know kind of the rhythms and sort of the do's and don'ts, I would think, by now. How aware of that are you as you approach a different kind of a team dynamic here?

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I am aware of it, but also, it's kind of like deconstructing my own sort of pattern, you know, I think that with with this one, you know, I think the main thing is just shaving away the sentimentality. And there's nothing wrong with sentimentality. I mean, it can make for really touching, great stories. I mean, you know, O. Henry is sentimental, and it's great, but it's it's like, in Guardians, we know that these misfits at their heart are all good characters. We know that at the end of the day, they're gonna be heroes. Even the deaths,

• 21:47Speaker 02

  so Yondu's death in volume two is poignant and teaches us all something and is a great moment of of sacrifice for the benefit of someone he loves in a way in which he is probably proud to die. And he's acknowledged by his compatriots and the Ravagers. It's it works together pretty well. That isn't the case with the Creature Commandos. These, there are deaths here that have nothing like that. They are just awful. Um, and, uh, and it's, it's a, it's a, it's a different, just a different way of coming at it. And I don't think it's, it's just, you know, for whatever reason, it's a less hopeful show than I think, uh, than the Guardians were movies.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  And it doesn't mean it's, doesn't have hope there. It's just not as over the top with it.

• 22:40Josh Horowitz?

  Did that reflect any of where you were in your own life and psyche at the time? Or was that just dictated by what these, who these characters were and the kind of story that?

• 22:48Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, I just think it's, it's a, it's just an honest, it's just honest. I mean, it's like I, you know, you'll see Superman. Superman is much different than this. Superman has a lot of hope in it. That's a part of me too. I think this is a different part of, of me. That's I, I sometimes feel like the bride. I sometimes feel like Superman. I think it's, they're different perspectives. Um, and, uh, and, you know, I think as, as storytellers and as artists, we all, you know, want to express different parts of ourselves and not get too caged into, you know,

• 23:21Speaker 02

  either something that's too Pollyanna or something that's too dark and dreary all the time. It's like life is, is complicated and, and it has all sorts of different, uh, emotions around it. So I want to express all of those things.

• 23:33Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you bring up something that actually I was going to bring up later, which is like, yeah. So for about the last decade at least, you've almost exclusively been working on comic book properties, right? And I guess from your answer, I guess I, this answers my question, but like you're, you are finding safe to say within that box, for lack of a better word, you're still able to kind of cover everything you want to cover in terms of the emotional spectrum, the genres, the variations in the genre. It's all there for you.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for now, sure. Yeah, I think that, but I don't think that there's any, like, that's one of the funny things about the DCU. It's like, uh, I, we can tell any story we want to. We could tell the story about a, you know, radio psychologist if we wanted to. That person could still be in the DCU, you know? It's like, there is, you know, we can do anything with these characters. And, you know, part of the goal from the beginning was to be able to create, uh, you know, to, to give the honor that the characters, the great characters deserve, the Wonder Woman's, Batmans and Supermans,

• 24:41Speaker 02

  but then also to prop up these lesser known characters like Peacemaker and Booster Gold and, you know, The Huntress or whomever, to be able to give them, you know, a little bit more, uh, give them a platform as well.

• 24:56Josh Horowitz?

  I'll just say, I, I wasn't sure if we'd have time to mention Booster Gold. I was obsessed with, when Booster Gold came on the scene, that initial 25, uh, comic book run is one of my favorites ever. So are we getting close? Because there's been, I'll just ask you point blank, that there are a lot of rumors that Kumail could be your Booster Gold. Can you comment either way?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  I mean, we're not quite there yet in terms of Booster Gold, you know, we haven't made any, uh, you know, you know, we, we're not quite there yet. We're just not quite there. It's not in terms of, you know, the scripts aren't right where I want them to be, you know, from the beginning. You know, I've made it clear that the one thing that, um, we're going to do at DC is no matter what, we're going to wait until uh, the screenplays and the teleplays are ready before we shoot them. And I'm not going to shoot anything until I'm happy with it. Now, I'm not, I'm not a crazy person. I'm not sitting there micromanaging everything. And I'm never happy with anything. I'm not one of those guys, but I have to feel it in my heart, you know?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  And that's happened. So it's happened with Supergirl. It's happened with Lanterns. It's happened with another thing that was greenlit last week that I can't even talk about yet. And it's happened with, you know, some other things. So there's other things out there that we're, we're, we're, you know, we're moving. Um, but, you know, other things aren't quite there yet. And, uh, Booster Gold's not quite there. Waller isn't quite there. Right. Brave and the Bold isn't quite there. They're not quite where I want them to be yet.

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  So when you took this job, let me give you a hypothetical. If if Bob Iger and Feige had said to you a year before this job came up, hey, Kevin, Kevin says, I'm ready to exit. Would you want to take over Marvel? Would you have contemplated that?

• 26:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 26:46Josh Horowitz?

  Why not?

• 26:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Would have I contemplated it? Of course. But first of all, let me say something. I didn't take over DC. I took over with Peter Safran.

• 26:56Josh Horowitz?

  No, I got you.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Like, yeah. You know, it's like, it was broached, DC was broached with me by someone before this. And it was broached with Peter before this. And I was like, no way. Like, I said it like, you know, it's one of the things that people think that I was lying about. But people asked me if I would want to do Kevin Feige's job at DC. I was like, I don't want to do that, that, that job. Like, that's not me. I don't, I can't do Peter's part of this. Right. I could never do this without Peter. He does all of the CEO stuff. I am purely in charge of helping to tell these stories myself and to usher in other writers and artists to help them tell their stories.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  It's a creative occupation. It's a creative CEO. There's nobody else that it's like, this certainly is not Kevin's job. Kevin is, he is in charge of the Marvel Universe. And he has, there's a big creative component to it, but there's a lot of other stuff, too. Well, I'm no good at that other stuff. I don't want to do that other stuff. That's Peter. Fortunately, it takes that for me, you know? I got you. We try each other. So it's like, no. If we were asked to do that for Marvel, would we have done it? I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know. But I know I've always been more interested in telling the stories of the DC characters. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a comic book writer. I equally loved DC and Marvel comic books.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  But for some reason, the DC characters were the ones that I dealt with the most. I would make up my own heroes and then I'd have them team up with Batman or whomever, Metal Man. You know, and that was kind of what interested me. And it's funny because that's my, that's my job now.

• 28:39Josh Horowitz?

  I'm with you and there were a number of years where it wasn't cool to say you were a DC kid versus a Marvel kid and I was a DC kid. James, I'll say I love Marvel, don't get me wrong, but.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  I was both. I was always both and I remember going to high school and like in my, in my grade school, nobody read comic books. So it was kind of a secret thing that I did that was almost shameful. And then I went to high school and I met other kids that read comic books. Like this is awesome. And we shared comic books. There was one DC guy and another Marvel guy and the Marvel guy thought he was better than the DC guy and they would get in fights all the time. And I'm like, can't we just love one another? What's wrong with, what's wrong with liking both?

• 29:18Josh Horowitz?

  Are there any, okay. So you mentioned, which I think is the most important kind of mandate you had, which is like, get the damn scripts right before we make anything, which is like, it sounds like such a no brainer, but it's like, God bless you for, for making sure you do that. Are there any other creative kind of mandates or things that you're saying to the filmmakers you're working with? Like, I don't want to see post-credit sequences. I don't want this. I want that. Like, are there any kind of rules of thumb you're giving your creative team?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  I'm sure that they would tell me there are things like that. Like I am very weird. I am very weird about my superhero movies and that I have to understand practically what's going on. Like, if something happens that is internally inconsistent, it drives me fucking crazy. So like, I think that that is a very big pain in the ass when you're making a movie say about Supergirl in outer space.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  So I think that.

• 30:23Josh Horowitz?

  James, the physics isn't gonna work. I'm just gonna tell you that right up top.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Greg and Anna could kill me because everything has, it all has to fit in, you know, together and, you know, her powers have to be the same as his powers and blah, blah, blah.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  So that kind of stuff, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a maniac about. And also things making sense just in terms of, you know, connecting to each other and not, not, not overtly. But also there's some things you gotta be kind of loose about, you know? Yeah, you know, there's lots of lots of product names and Peacemaker. That's part lots of, you know, he's mentioning celebrities all the time, you know? Superman's a different sort of world. There aren't really like it's not about real people in a real world. It's about this mythical DC Universe. So it's it's different. Those are those are two stories created by the same person in the same universe. And even those are different in terms of the vibrations they're giving off.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  And some someone could say that's internally inconsistent. But I'm not against I always loved in the comic books that artists had their own ways of representing, say, Metropolis. So I'm going to come in with Metropolis. If somebody else, you know, creates Metropolis in the future, they might have a slightly different way of looking at Metropolis. And I'm cool with that. I I don't want everything to look the same all the time. I think the audience is smart enough. They can say, oh, yeah, this is all connected, but also, come on. And, you know, I think that too often people get a little bit too strict about canon and freaked out. I mean, you know, I dealt with Marvel. I mean, it was like,

• 32:06Speaker 02

  you know, they showed the, you know, the Infinity Gauntlet and early like in a in Thor or something? You saw it. Like, oh, no, that was a simile. They they they retrofitted it, you know? But because the, you know, they retrofitted those other things to be Infinity Stones, because that was never written until Guardians.

• 32:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  So it's like, you know, I'm I'm used to that stuff. I think that it's OK. You got to be a little bit loose with it.

• 32:36Josh Horowitz?

  It's the internal logic within the film, because in the end, you're making films like you're not make you're making an experience for an audience, and that individual experience should work on its own terms.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And I think that and I do think that these these are interconnected stories. But this is not people are always going to be who's the big bad? Who's the big bad? And for their big bads for, you know, connected films? Yes.

• 32:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  But is this all about, hey, I'm telling this one story about this big bad? No, this is about a connected universe. We're world building. We're not story building. We're not writing one story that has a beginning, middle and end. We're creating a universe in which people can go and join into this universe and experience it. And it is much more like Star Wars than Marvel in that respect.

• 33:29Speaker 00

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• 34:30Josh Horowitz?

  All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you a bunch of things. A lot of these things you're gonna, you're gonna bat away. You're a professional. I'm just gonna ask you a few things. You tell me when I've overstepped, but here I go. First, just on the Superman front, which obviously you're heavily in the edit right now.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:43Josh Horowitz?

  What was left unexplored that you've been excited to explore in your Superman? Cause we've seen some great Superman films and TV over the years. What are you excited by that you've been able to really dive into that we've never seen before in your Superman?

• 34:58Speaker 02

  What we excited by that exists in my Superman movie?

• 35:01Josh Horowitz?

  That's, that's, that you're, that you've been exploring in your Superman movie. You feel like that was never done justice elsewhere in Superman.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't think we've ever seen the, the big science fiction Silver Age Superman aspects that we have in our movie. And we've never seen, you know, you know, uh.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  We've never seen this, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll see when, when the movie comes out. We've never seen this specific part of Superman's life.

• 35:28Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. I spoke, Nick Holt just did the podcast the other day. So we talked a bunch about, of course, Superman, the cap and the casting experience, you know,

• 35:36Speaker 02

  We've never, I don't think we've ever seen the Lex like that, you know, that Nick is Nick is,

• 35:43Speaker 02

  he's imposing, you know, you go, oh, fuck, poor Superman. That's the thing that I, we never see, we don't, and not in film, sometimes in the comics you go, oh, Superman's fucked because Lex is so smart and so good at what he's doing. But in the movies you're going, Lex is about to get fucked, you know?

• 36:06Josh Horowitz?

  Not to mention, there's the physical component too. You've got this,

• 36:11Josh Horowitz?

  you've got a physical Lex here, you've got a six foot four guy.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, we've got a big old Superman in a, you know, a pretty, well, pretty tall Lex too. So, but yeah, they, they don't, yeah, it's just you, you see now where Lex is, he, he's not the person you want to have against you.

• 36:29Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have, cause Nick told me that kind of when he went into audition, he had a sneaky suspicion he was better for Lex. Did you, did you have that same inkling when, yeah?

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:42Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I'm very excited about lanterns for a number of reasons. I mean, we, again, we've never really seen, I mean, look, with all due respect, like, I don't think anyone's gonna argue, we've never seen a great Green Lantern live action story.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Nobody's getting shocked by that statement, Josh.

• 36:59Josh Horowitz?

  I'm just trying to be nice. I don't want Ryan Reynolds to come after me, but when you say, when you say grounded,

• 37:05Speaker 02

  One of the first people I talked to after I got the job was Ryan Reynolds. I'm like, you coming back? He's like, get the fuck out of here. That's the thing that people are gonna get pick up.

• 37:16Josh Horowitz?

  Was that a joke?

• 37:18Speaker 02

  I wasn't really telling him to come back.

• 37:21Josh Horowitz?

  When you say grounded, how grounded, like, are we gonna see superhero like costumes? Are we gonna, or like, are we stripping it down?

• 37:30Josh Horowitz?

  Even further.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Well, I don't want to give away all that stuff, but it's I think grounded just like, you know, if Green Lanterns were real, what the fuck would they be? And how would they be? You know, I was thinking about it the other morning because I kept being like, you know, because the story, the thing that keeps getting out is it's a terrestrial story, you know?

• 37:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  And I'm like, yeah, because it's on Earth. The story takes place on Earth. Everybody's like, we don't want to see they're outer space. They fly with rings. We don't want to see a, you know, and I'm like, yeah, they they're on Earth for the story like most Green Lantern stories. It's terrestrial bound.

• 38:05Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  It's not in outer space, you know, we don't have a thousand Green Lanterns, you know, all that stuff. And it's like, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a grounded story that's being told through another lens and no way that's really commensurate, you know, it's it's it's it's an HBO series and it's going to be an HBO series. And I'm and I'm happy with that and I love the scripts.

• 38:25Josh Horowitz?

  Speaking of big congrats, I mean, you can't you can't be happier than the reception for the Penguin. I mean, like, it's it's been remarkable. People are just over the moon.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  It's been so far DC Studios has done okay because we had the, you know, Chris, you know, Superman movie come out, which is swept at the Critics Choice Awards, you know, Penguin, you know, and those are the first two things we were involved with at all. And first to DC Studios releases. So, yeah, it's just pretty exciting.

• 38:53Josh Horowitz?

  There I mean, there's a lot. I mean, I think maybe the biggest question I've seen out there is like, because, you know, you've been very adamant, Matt Reeves Batman Universe is Matt Reeves Batman. And and he's such a singular filmmaker. Let him do his thing. Is have you contemplated? Have you had the conversation? Have you reconsidered integrating Pattinson's Batman into your DCU?

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Um, I've contemplated it. Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  You've got to contemplate everything, John. Talk about everything like it just means like, and then see like, you can't, these questions you can't answer because people are too, you know?

• 39:31Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Yeah, you would be an idiot not to have that.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  They take everything to mean. An idiot not to think what's this gonna, you know, how does this go? How does this go? You know? But I'm committed to both telling stories in the DCU and telling Elseworlds story. I want the freedom to tell Elseworlds stories. We want to be able to, you know, tell a story and, you know, you know, Superman's very different or, you know, tell a, you know, Red Sun story or whatever, you know, uh, it's like, we want to be able to, uh, you know, play with these characters in different ways and they're different. Uh, one of the things I love about DC over Marvel comic books is that those things are much more plentiful. There's many more, uh, Elseworlds stories. There's many more presentations of Wonder Woman and Batman and Superman especially

• 40:15Speaker 02

  that you see, uh, them showing up in different ways and different, uh, Elseworlds stories. I think that's part of the fun of DC. You know, you get Watchmen, like Watchmen, that's, Watchmen is a result of DC telling a story that's outside of the continuity of, uh, of, of DC Comics.

• 40:34Josh Horowitz?

  Would you go back and do anything more with Watchmen?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  I don't know. Um, you know, I, I really like, you know, we, I, I, I really respect Alan Moore, I will say, you know, I really respect him and, um, and so, um, yeah. But that's it. I did love the TV show. So.

• 41:00Josh Horowitz?

  The show is pretty great. Yeah. What, what is the, can you talk a little bit just broadly speaking cadence wise? Like, do you have like a number in your head of like, how many projects feels right per year TV and film in the next few years that you want to hit?

• 41:16Speaker 02

  I do, but it's, it's gonna be, I, there's something that is, you know, right, but it also depends on what, where we're releasing stuff and it also depends on.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  What the genre is, you know, it depends on is it within the DCU, is it an Elseworlds tale? And it and mostly it depends on what's the good material that I have. Is it worth spending and toiling and, you know, doing everything else? You know, it's got to be really good. And if it's if it's not good, then I'm not doing it.

• 41:48Josh Horowitz?

  Do you know what the next project you'll want to direct is? Have you already thought about?

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Nope, I don't. I really don't, you know, and I'm, you know, playing with a few ideas. I'm going to play, you know, once we're I'm done shooting Peacemaker in a week and change. And when I'm done with that, then I'll start to play around, especially at the beginning of the year with what I'm I'm writing next, you know? Yeah.

• 42:12Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I'll stop pestering you with the DC question.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  It's one of four things, frankly.

• 42:16Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow. Okay, okay. I'm going to stop pestering you with the DC questions. I know it's hard to talk about this stuff too prematurely. How about just as a fan of like what you're see because I you talked about this before. We can love our Marvel and our DC, and I love that about you and Kevin, your mutual admiration society. Did you? Were you excited when you heard or shocked when you heard about Downey coming back? As Doctor Doom and the and their next phase and what they're leading to? What was your perspective on it?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  I was I thought it was a smart move. I was excited about it. And I also love Roberts. So it's I think that's cool. I think it's I think it's I think it's a I think it's a great. It's a great idea, and I think that, you know, there's nobody better than him.

• 42:57Josh Horowitz?

  If and when they do more with Guardians, do they have to kind of like keep you plugged in? Like, are you potentially a producer on a Guardians film when you're still with DC going forward?

• 43:11Speaker 02

  I don't know the exact legal answer to that. I think the answer is actually yes. But I'm not sure what the answer is, but listen, I'm excited for them to go do whatever they want to with Guardians. I would love them to to take those characters and see more stories with them. They completely Chris has my blessing. Everybody they all have my blessing like, you know, Chris keeps saying, is this okay? Is this okay? And I'm like, dude, whatever, like, I am totally okay with whatever you do, you know, you go do it. I mean, he's one of my very close friends, and I would love to see him be Star Lord again.

• 43:47Josh Horowitz?

  Was there anything you ever didn't get to explore in the Guardians realm? I know you talked, the Ravagers show was something we talked about for a bit. Was there one that got away that you would have liked to have explored?

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Um, oh, there's so many. I mean, yeah, the Ravager, the Ravagers show I thought was gonna, could be a fun thing. Legendary Star Lord, really frankly, I had, we had a whole idea for that. And then, you know, Rocket and, Rocket and Groot. To be honest, Rocket and Groot is what Guardians 3 was. So, um, you know, I wanted to do Rocket and Groot first. And then I was talking to do Guardians 3 instead of Rocket and Groot. And, uh, and so, uh, that's, that's kind of, you know, cause I knew I needed to tell Rocket's story.

• 44:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right. Um, you, you've, you've said before that other Guardians actors are going to pop up inevitably on, on the DC side of things. Have there, have you cast people we don't know about yet in the DCU?

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:50Josh Horowitz?

  Have we cast Guardians people in the DCU we don't know about yet?

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Um, like actual signed contracts cast or?

• 44:59Josh Horowitz?

  No, I don't, I don't need, I don't need, yeah, real talks.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Real talks, yeah, yes.

• 45:05Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, there's been rumor of, of Bane and Deathstroke. Could Batista be your Bane eventually, or is that off the table?

• 45:13Speaker 02

  I don't know if Dave wants to be Bane anymore. He used to want to be Bane, but I think he's.

• 45:17Josh Horowitz?

  Now he's slimmed down. He's too thin to be Bane.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  I, I think that is, I think that's true. I think, yeah, I think, I think Dave would much rather be another character than Bane right now. I, that's, I, I, I think that's probably the case. So I of course love Dave and want to work with Dave again. I'm not sure he wants to be Bane anymore, so.

• 45:38Josh Horowitz?

  Deathstroke and Bane though, might be something that's, that's in the ether, that's somewhere out there?

• 45:46Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, we lost the connection. Weird. Okay, let's end with this, James.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, what happened? I meant last, last.

• 45:51Josh Horowitz?

  It's so convenient. Strange. Okay, I'm gonna let you go on this. The Happy Sag Confuse profoundly random questions for you, Mr. James Gunn. No DC spoilers.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 46:01Josh Horowitz?

  You're okay again.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Okay, good. It's clear.

• 46:05Josh Horowitz?

  You can, yeah, exhale. Dogs or cats? We know this.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Dogs, but I've got a cat who I love and who loves me more than anybody. So I love, I love cats too. I love them, but dogs are my favorite animal. Yeah.

• 46:17Josh Horowitz?

  I'm always, my, my, my beloved Lucy, I have a pit mix who usually is here. She's out on the walk right now. One day you'll have to meet her. She's the love of my life. Um, what do you, what do you collect, James?

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Uh, Jen, do I collect anything? I don't think I, oh. Bad habit. The gar, she says.

• 46:39Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, it's gonna be worse. It's, you're fine. Everyone needs advice. It's okay. What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Don't do drugs. I don't, you know.

• 46:48Josh Horowitz?

  We'll take it. Yeah.

• 46:50Josh Horowitz?

  Um, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 46:54Speaker 02

  You know, I'll tell you this. It's my, it's my dog that passed away. Um, and I've, I've had him up there forever and I can't bear to take him down.

• 47:03Josh Horowitz?

  I get it.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  So that's Wesley up there. I can't, I can't take him down. And then the, I think the inside is my cat. Yeah, the inside is my cat. That's been that forever and I'll never be able to take that down. She's 13, but she's doing okay.

• 47:15Josh Horowitz?

  Um, are you ever mistaken for anyone, whether it's another filmmaker or actor? I mean, you're.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  Well, I was, yeah, I was at the Superman premiere, the super slash man premiere.

• 47:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  And somebody came up to me and said, somebody said, are you Zack Snyder?

• 47:39Speaker 02

  I was like, no. And she's like, she's like, you're not. And I'm like, no. You know, I don't, I'm not sorry. I don't know what to say. And then, uh, next day, and I feel so sorry because the girl that did this will probably hear this. She wrote me, she just, she's like, I'm so sorry. I had a brain fart or whatever. I just didn't, I lost, I got too nervous and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Called you Zack Snyder. I'm like, it's compliment. He's a good looking guy.

• 48:11Josh Horowitz?

  I was good. That guy's jacked. You should take, you should take that any day of the week. That man's in the gym four hours a day, I think. Yeah. Uh, in the spirit of Happy, sad confused, who's an actor that always makes you happy. You see them on screen.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Um, Steve Buscemi.

• 48:28Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah. I don't, have you ever worked with Steve? Am I missing something?

• 48:31Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 48:34Josh Horowitz?

  What's up? Ever offer him something? You've offered him something. You've tried.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  No, never have offered him anything. Yeah. No, I haven't, I haven't. I just think he's great. I just love watching him.

• 48:43Josh Horowitz?

  Steve Buscemi as Plastic Man coming soon. Um, movie.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  People who I've worked with, it's Kevin Bacon. Like he's just the greatest guy in the world. And also I love seeing him drop up in anything. And I know he's, you know, getting my six degrees better. So it's like, I'm always happy with the, with the hustle.

• 49:01Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, a movie that makes you sad.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  I mean, Sophie's Choice is sad.

• 49:12Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, that's, it's acceptable. It would be wrong if it didn't.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:17Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we'll take it. And finally, a food that makes you.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  What came to my mind?

• 49:22Josh Horowitz?

  I mean.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  I'm like, you're asking me for a sad movie. It's so, well, the kids use, it's hard.

• 49:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's, that's not a good situation. Let's be real.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 49:33Josh Horowitz?

  What's, and finally, a food that makes you confused.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  A food that makes me confused.

• 49:40Josh Horowitz?

  You don't get it. What's up with that? Why do people eat that?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Uh, any type of melon.

• 49:48Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. We will not buy Crafty on this set. Okay, fair enough.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Not a fan of melon. Nope. No type of melon do I like. No. What? Oh, root beer is the grossest thing. Oh, oh, root beers. Oh, root beer is the grossest food that's ever existed. Like, I don't like melon, but like, if I was about to get married and somebody's mother served me melon, I would sit and eat the whole plate of melon. Yeah. If somebody served me root beer, I would, I would vomit. I find, I find root beer to be the grossest food that could ever exist.

• 50:23Josh Horowitz?

  Little, little ice cream, a little vanilla scoop.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Petroleum didn't kill me. I would rather drink petroleum. I'm not, I'm for like, I mean, I'm not even being facetious in any way. I really.

• 50:35Josh Horowitz?

  No, I, I sense the, yeah, this is the most heartfelt answer of the entire conversation.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Genetic, because if you look up, if you look up, because I'm Irish, right? So it's like, if you look up Irish people drinking root beer on, online, you find a lot of videos of Irish people trying root beer for the first time and being horrified.

• 50:56Josh Horowitz?

  That is an internet rabbit hole I've never gone down, but I'm about to after our conversation.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Go, go watch, you'll watch and then you'll see they react. And that's what I react like when I drink root beer. One time I had a dessert just a few years ago, somebody poured, it was like a root beer soaked. Uh, thing and it was so like, I took a bite of it and I was so, so angry.

• 51:18Josh Horowitz?

  We learned almost nothing about the future of DC, but we've learned that Irish people hate root beer.

• 51:26Josh Horowitz?

  You gave me more than enough. I appreciate you, you know, I hate to put people on the spot. No, you were in the DCU. Spoiler. My exclusive. Okay, we got it.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  The better world.

• 51:38Josh Horowitz?

  Most importantly, if you remember the beginning of our conversation, Creature Commandos, guys, I legitimately love this one. This is pure James Gunn at its best. Uh, December 5th, I think that's the day this is dropping. The first two episodes are out. Uh, the entire series is fantastic. Check it out on Max and lots more exciting stuff to come from Mr. James Gunn and DCU. Thanks, buddy. As always, I appreciate you.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  It's good seeing you. I appreciate you too, man. You're always fun.

• 52:05Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  As wish lists grow, you know where to go. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro and more. Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Balmain, Clinique or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty.