Harris Dickinson

Harris Dickinson may be best known for his on camera work in BABYGIRL and TRIANGLE OF SADNESS but he's quickly proving himself behind the camera thanks to his acclaimed feature directing debut, URCHIN. Here he catches up with Josh in this chat recorded at the Telluride Film Festival. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Whether it's hot yoga, over 100 degree weather, or too much sun. Gator Light, with a specialized blend of five electrolytes, was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration. Shop now at retailers nationwide. Gator Light hydrates faster than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  Denis Villeneuve is doing James Bond. That makes James Bond suddenly pretty damn interesting.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  That's true. No, and also the role of James Bond is interesting. The circumstances of Bond are interesting.

• 1:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:10Speaker 03

  Like the, the, the character, the world, what he goes through. That's interesting. It's like Harris. You have a director like Denis, it's like, there's no doubt that they're gonna be, yeah.

• 1:22Josh Horowitz?

  I'd like to start manifesting. That could be interesting. Have you thought about that? I mean, have you even in your mind's eye thought about? I don't know. That is an idea?

• 1:32Speaker 03

  Uh, of course.

• 1:34Josh Horowitz?

  In practicality, yeah.

• 1:35Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:43Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, it's Harris Dickinson, one of our bright, up and coming actors, who also happens to now be an excellent filmmaker. We're talking about his new film, Urchin. It is in theaters soon. A lot to catch up on with Harris, who's never done the pod before. Very excited to share this one with all of you. Before we get to that, I'm gonna mention a bunch of upcoming events very quickly. As always, check out our Patreon. That's where We put all the early access, discount codes, autographed merch, Patreon.com/happysetconfused. In no discernible order, I will mention these events. October 14th in New York City at the 92nd Street Y. I'm catching up with Aziz Ansari. I say catching up. I've never actually had him on the podcast, though.

• 2:27Josh Horowitz?

  Way back when, early in my career, early in his career, our paths did cross a few times. Excited to talk to him about this one because the new film is really fun, very entertaining, big screen comedy. Imagine that, a great comedy in theaters. You'll be able to see Good Fortune at this special event at 92nd Street Y, followed by a live podcast taping of Happy Set Confused. The movie is truly great. It has Keanu Reeves, Seth Rogen, Aziz, many others. Check it out. Even before that, if you're near Comic Con, you're gonna probably bump into me whether you like it or not. I'm doing about six or seven different events. Among them, we are gonna be doing a 10th anniversary reunion of Mr. Robot

• 3:12Josh Horowitz?

  with Rami Malek and Christian Slater and creator Sam Esmael. We're doing a special Alien event with Sigourney Weaver. We're doing a special Matrix event with Laurence Fishburne. We're doing an X-Men event with James McAvoy and Nicholas Holt. I'm moderating the Star Trek Universe panel, and there's one or two other things that I haven't been able to mention yet, but I will soon. So hopefully you've gotten your tickets by now to New York Comic Con. Look out for me. Come say hi, cheer me on, and enjoy all the fantastic nerd-dom that is near Comic Con every year. I love it. All right, let's talk Harris Dickinson briefly before we get to the actual conversation.

• 3:52Josh Horowitz?

  This is a conversation that was recorded at the Telluride Film Festival. I love you. You've heard me talk about Telluride Film Festival. Adore this festival. It brings out great films, great filmmakers. It is a chill vibe. I spoke to Harris early one morning, relatively early one morning during the festival. It was very nice of him to carve out this time. This was the only interview I think he did at the festival because he wanted to catch up.

• 4:21Josh Horowitz?

  Just a couple notes reminder, whatever little things to note. This is literally recorded on an iPhone like at a condo until you ride. So it's not going to win any awards for best presentation, but we got it. We got the video, we got the audio, we got the conversation. Harris and I were chatting, you know, in the middle of a film festival. Your brain's a little bit fried, but you know, enough apologies. This is a great conversation. We warmed up, he warmed up, he's delightful. I'll mention his new film Urchin again. We talked about it extensively in the conversation, but I highly recommend this one. I was so impressed when I saw this.

• 5:00Josh Horowitz?

  This is his feature directing debut. He has a small part in it, but it really features Stephen Delaney. Front and so Frank Delaney, Stephen Delaney is the dad. I have that right, right? Yeah, Stephen Delaney. I think it's Delaney. Anyway, Frank, front and center as a homeless guy in the UK with like mental issues, anger issues, addiction issues. A really interesting character study, fantastic leading performance and just like a sublime piece of filmmaking, really impressive for somebody relatively so young. Let's just say it, Harris just starting out. So very excited for what's to come for him as a filmmaker. This is in theaters in the US in just about a week. I think October 10th, UK around the same time.

• 5:45Josh Horowitz?

  Check it out, put it on your list, truly. But this is also his first time on the podcast, so we talk about everything. You know, whether it's baby girl, his, you know, flirtation with big budget things, his upcoming Beatles film he's doing with Paul Meskell and Barry Keoghan and Joe Quinn and Sam Mendes, so much exciting stuff happening for Harris. And you'll, you'll see from this conversation, he's just a real legit good dude and like a, a true film lover. So really excited this happened. And I hope you enjoy the conversation. I hope you put Urchin on your list of things to do, films to prioritize in the coming weeks. It's a busy season, a lot of great movies and Urchin is a small one, but, but check it out, support independent filmmaking, support the great Harris Dickinson.

• 6:31Josh Horowitz?

  Here it is, my chat. Telluride Film Festival, me and Harris Dickinson. Enjoy. We're jumping off a cliff together, Harris Dickinson. I don't know if it's the ideal circumstance for a podcast. It is in some ways. Congratulations. We're at Telluride.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  There's worse places to be doing it.

• 6:46Josh Horowitz?

  That is true.

• 6:47Speaker 03

  You know?

• 6:48Josh Horowitz?

  But I just want to like-

• 6:48Speaker 03

  It feels organic.

• 6:49Josh Horowitz?

  It feels organic. We-

• 6:50Speaker 03

  We just bumped into each other.

• 6:52Josh Horowitz?

  We did yesterday, a couple of times. Um, but yeah, I want to set the scene for folks. Um, we, it's a, it's a little early for, for us and it's a festival. So yeah, we might only turn coherent about halfway through.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, you might get 20 minutes of okay content.

• 7:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's my standard.

• 7:09Speaker 03

  But I, but as I was saying to you before, I think sometimes being a little tired helps because if you're like, I don't know about you, but if I'm really awake and like-

• 7:21Josh Horowitz?

  Too wired to-

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Caffeinated and like really there, I tend to be more, um, over thinking.

• 7:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, yes.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Over cautious.

• 7:32Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Whereas like if I'm a little more, there's an element of tranquility that kind of helps me just cope with things.

• 7:38Josh Horowitz?

  Perfect.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Um, but, but you know, yeah, intelligence might not be there.

• 7:44Josh Horowitz?

  We don't need intelligence from you. No, we do. Um, no, it's good to see you, man. Congratulations, first of all. Yeah, I've told you this, but for the record, um, you, you killed it with this. I'm writing, directing your first feature film, Urchin, is why we're talking today. Um, okay, before we get to Urchin though, again, we're in Telluride. Um, first Telluride?

• 8:01Speaker 03

  First Telluride, yeah.

• 8:03Josh Horowitz?

  It's the way to do it.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  How many times have you done it?

• 8:04Josh Horowitz?

  This is my fourth.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:06Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna come as long as they'll have me because as you're a day in, but you can tell it's, it's a pretty cool one.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  It's, it's a beautiful festival, man. I like it a lot. Yeah, I like it a lot. I mean, the setting is like nothing else I've experienced. Certainly as a Brit, there's nothing like this in the UK, um, in terms of settings go and then, and then just the, the feeling of the festival as well. Like the first day I got here, walking around and experiencing the- The moviegoers and the actual experience of it is totally unique, like, yeah, to anything else I've been to.

• 8:40Josh Horowitz?

  Running into you first yesterday, they had this nice little brunch that starts off and it's like, I don't know about you. That's, that's, I mean, we have some, some friends, some people we know, but a lot of, you know, it's like Jodie Foster's in one corner and

• 8:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:52Josh Horowitz?

  It's just, it's craziness. I found myself in a conversation with you, Paul Meskell and Jeremy Allen White, who I'd never met. And I was like, one of these does not belong. I need to get out of this quartet right now.

• 9:05Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, I think probably all feel the same, man.

• 9:08Josh Horowitz?

  But how are you in those kind of circumstances? Are you like leaning on familiar faces, friends, or can you kind of acclimate? I don't know, to that intensity?

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I really love meeting people. I do. And I think those things open, open you up to that in a, in the most sort of intense way. You know, you get like the, all different types of interactions and, um, I don't know, I do find it quite interesting having, having those experiences with new people. But, I mean, it's, it's cool coming here with a film because you speak to people that have either seen the film or, or, you know, looking forward to it or not. And then, um, you get to-

• 9:44Josh Horowitz?

  I'm indifferent to your work.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got notes for you, so.

• 9:48Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, no.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Um, but yeah, and then it's nice to bump into mates and see people like Paul and Jeremy and, yeah.

• 9:54Josh Horowitz?

  Who did, uh, meet anybody yet so far in your travels? Have you met any new faces that you have some admiration for or no?

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Um, I met Billy Crudup last night, um, and I had a little chat with Noah Baumbach, who's very cool.

• 10:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  I'm a fan.

• 10:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  I'm looking forward to seeing his film. Have you seen much already?

• 10:16Josh Horowitz?

  I've seen a couple. Let's see, last night I saw the new Springsteen film.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm seeing that today.

• 10:21Josh Horowitz?

  Jeremy kills it.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:22Josh Horowitz?

  Like, yeah, come on, of course he does.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  Man, I'm excited.

• 10:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's a tall task and he lives up to it. Yeah, yeah. And then so Colin Farrell do his thing in the new Ed Berger movie.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  It's funny, I had dinner in London with Jeremy just before he started that. And he's so chill, like he's such a chill, like guy, I mean, maybe he won't say the same, but like.

• 10:44Josh Horowitz?

  No, I've never, the first time I met him, so yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, he just seems so relaxed going into such a huge thing.

• 10:51Josh Horowitz?

  I imagine you have to like self preservation for a role like that. I mean, click into a different gear or else you're gonna like tear yourself apart.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:59Josh Horowitz?

  For six months.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  Have you seen Hamlet yet?

• 11:01Josh Horowitz?

  I've seen it today.

• 11:02Speaker 03

  Oof, that was me last night, man.

• 11:04Josh Horowitz?

  It's gonna wreck me.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, I I couldn't speak after and I was sort of immediately bumped, I spoke to Jessie and Paul and I just didn't know what to say. And I feel I feel so inarticulate after those things when you're kind of hit by.

• 11:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  Such a monumental experience, you you don't know how to kind of, yeah, verbalize your feelings and I found myself. Sort of telling Jessie about her own film and I was like, shut, shut up, like what are you even saying right now? Just like, you know, and I'm like, just shut up, like, and then I tried to think what is interesting to me. After I've just watched my own film, when what is interesting to me is is to hear people's genuine thoughts.

• 11:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  Like a genuine reaction, not just a, that was amazing, which is all sometimes we can muster is that was phenomenal. Or like, that was one beautiful work, but actually what I always love is hearing. Honest particulars or like observations and then I also sometimes like hearing negatives. You know, maybe maybe I don't share the same with my film that I've made, but like if I'm in something, I always have a good.

• 12:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  Distance for someone to be like, yeah, I did it to do it like.

• 12:15Josh Horowitz?

  That's amazing.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Like I told you about that, do I think I spoke to you about it before, that the guy.

• 12:19Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, in the supermarket, right?

• 12:20Speaker 03

  The supermarket, it was sort of sort of gave me his feedback on trying to stand this ending and I was like, okay.

• 12:25Josh Horowitz?

  I can't wait for you to meet up with him again for Urchin at the same supermarket, make it a routine.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Listen, get him on the podcast.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Do a little special and he can just rip into all of my films.

• 12:36Josh Horowitz?

  What before we rip into all your films, no we're not. What um what is it like to see like your friends like kill it on the screen to see like your contemporaries because I I love this like group you're in because I I don't know it it feels like you're this you're these true cineastes like you you love Criterion Closet and Letterboxd like the rest of us.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:58Josh Horowitz?

  Where like I don't know it's a different kind of generation of of young talent now that I see that really like is in it for the right reasons.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, you think.

• 13:06Josh Horowitz?

  I do think genuinely.

• 13:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:08Josh Horowitz?

  Um, no, I mean, you and Paul are so cut from the same cloth.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's lovely. I mean, it it it always feels like the best kind of um fuel to to wanna keep doing good stuff to see your friends.

• 13:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Working with exceptional people and like turning in these beautiful performances. I mean, and then, yeah, and then it's and then it's a weird one, isn't it? Because you you observe these people's work from afar and then the beautiful thing is then you get to work with them and you get to, you know, act alongside them. So it's one of those really.

• 13:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you're gonna spend a lot of time with Paul. We'll get to that.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  I already am. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But um, yeah, I'm super proud of him, man.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 14:26Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 14:59Josh Horowitz?

  All right, let's talk, let's talk Urchin. Um, like I said, I mean, like, look, I've seen a lot of like, you know, actors, young actors try their hand at writing and directing and often they can feel like, you know, raw, unformed, they're not quite there yet, they're vanity projects sometimes and this just like really, and from the time of debut at Cannes, I think people were so justifiably impressed with what you did here. I know you've been making short films for a bit, so this didn't come out of nowhere. But, I don't know, like, have you wanted to direct and write as long as you've wanted to act? Like, how did this kind of develop?

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think I probably wanted to direct before acting really took over. I mean, I was, um, I was making skateboard videos as, as a 10, 11 year old and then I, I started making, I had a sketch show that I used to make on YouTube and then I made these short films that were a little more dramatic and I, I used to sort of rope my family into helping me and, um, I used to use, you know, friends and stuff and, and shoot on a, a little hand Sony Handycam that I, I saved up for. So that was my, that was my sort of introduction into film and I, I thought at one point I was, I was gonna be a camera operator. I was really sort of set on that because I didn't

• 16:14Speaker 03

  know the wider context of, of sort of a role within film, I guess. I just sort of knew, you know, the making of it, filming and editing and then as I got a bit older, I started to understand the, the craft a bit more and then I was working on set a little bit as a, as a runner during college and then I, I was always writing, like I was, I was writing, as I said, I was writing the short films and I was writing some plays and, and then acting, I discovered acting a similar time, but I never, weirdly, I never mixed the two, like I never, I never appeared in my own films. And then...

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Film school felt quite intangible, like it was very expensive. And I was looking at a few places in the States and it just didn't seem realistic. And so acting was probably more realistic for me at the time because I had, there was a local theatre school that I could go to. And um, and then I went to college and studied film and theatre and I had a bad experience with my film teacher. He was a really tricky man, like I've spoken about it in depth on, in other press and stuff. But like, I think he kind of put me off of like.

• 17:29Josh Horowitz?

  Of directing.

• 17:30Speaker 03

  Of a film a little bit, yeah, like he, and so, and then acting became a bit more of a, um, it was a bit closer to me. I started to, I did a bit of theatre and then I started to get auditions for various different things. So it was like, okay, I'll, I'll go with this.

• 17:45Josh Horowitz?

  Builds its own momentum and so you're, you're there, you're, it's happening.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Exactly. And then I was, and then I was working other jobs whilst I was auditioning. So it was like, okay, the running and I was doing, I was still doing some stuff on set as a second assistant AC or, you know, just a runner and trying to kind of climb both ladders at the same time. But at a certain point, it felt like foolish to try and um, prioritise the filmmaking because I was getting opportunities in the acting world.

• 18:13Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, this is like a big choice for someone at your juncture in your career because like the opportunities are right now, like fast and furious. Like this is what many actors work for.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:21Josh Horowitz?

  And to take this time out.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was scary. It was scary.

• 18:26Josh Horowitz?

  Take yourself off the market essentially for a year probably, or whatever it was.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:30Josh Horowitz?

  It's a big thing.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it was a strange one because I think, and it was a slow build because I made a short film with the BBC when I was twenty two and it was just as I was sort of, as I was finishing Triangle Sadness, I was finishing making that short film and I was kind of editing it remotely in Greece and stuff, which is mad. But then we came home, we screened it at London Film Festival and then BBC said to us, if you've got anything longer, and I immediately was like, yes, I do. I've got this script ready, like it was this a hundred and thirty page script and it was urgent, but it was, it was in a different form.

• 19:07Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  And it was much longer and it was probably really bad. And then um, and then, and then again, it was like a three year period of trying to get the film financed, but once we got to a point where I said, okay, there's a certain point I do have to. Commit to making this film because I can't just take acting work and you know.

• 19:26Josh Horowitz?

  No, you only have one shot at a first film and this is gonna set the bar for your.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:31Josh Horowitz?

  If you indeed want to do this as a career.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it was a risk because it wasn't fully financed.

• 19:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  Up until the last minute. So, so there was, there was a period where I was, I was, uh, you know, not taking opportunities and my team are a bit like, your film's not financed me.

• 19:47Josh Horowitz?

  It's not a real thing.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  It's a real thing. Yeah, it will happen, it will happen. And then, um, I just knew, I know, I know it sounds like cliche or, or pretentious, but I had this deep, like, burning thing inside of me to, to have to make the film. And I sort of knew it was the time to do it and, and I couldn't, I couldn't wait any longer. And I, I know we had to wait for finance, but it was, I had to do it now and I had to try and make it possible, you know.

• 20:15Josh Horowitz?

  So where, where does this come from? For those that don't know, this is, um, I mean, very much a character piece. This is about a guy, Mike, who's kind of caught between the cracks of a system that's, you know, he's in this horrible cycle that we, you know, we all know in the UK and the US and indeed many places around the world. Where he's got, you know, mental issues, addiction issues, a lot going on and can't break out of it. And it's a tragic, but very human story, um, that seemingly, I mean, look, I don't know you that well, but like, I don't know, like, how, how do you connect with this character, with this, this, this world?

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think like, I think people from the outside that don't know me and know my experience or know what I'm involved in, probably see me and see the work I've done. They go, why, you know,

• 21:01Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  What's going on? Like, how, what the fuck do you know about this? Like, but I think, you know, I spent, I spent a lot of time and years and hours working in that community, in my local community, um, with various charities that focus on, um, helping people that are experiencing homelessness. And my dad's a social worker as well. So I've, I've grown up around those kinds of stories a lot. And I think I've always been intrigued by, um. Like cyclical behaviour in general, because it's also something I've sort of watched various people in my life deal with. Sure. Um, and and we can call it addiction, but really it's like more than addiction and more nuanced than addiction. It's like how we repeat patterns, right? Yes.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  On a very basic level, like how um at the end of the day unsophisticated we are. Yeah. In our in our makeup, you know, like how how how vulnerable we are as people, right? And so I wanted to try and tap into that with with Mike, someone that's similar age to me. Um, despite uh despite everything else, really, he's sort of battling against himself, you know, which is so common with people that have been through a degree of trauma and and I think homelessness is is um is the backdrop rather than the focus of it, you know? And I think it was always important for me to fully understand that world and fully

• 22:30Speaker 03

  experience that world truthfully, but then not be tied to the sort of um the rules of social realism. Right. And I think that in order for us to break those rules, we we had to really uh allow scrutiny of the the script, like, for example, like the the two years leading up to the shoot. We had like so many advisors come in and like, you know, attack the script in the best way possible. Because it for me, it was important that we were we were sort of coming out from a truthful perspective. But then it enabled us to then go somewhere else, right? And and and it was and it was interesting to me to try and uh tell a story like this in a in a way that wasn't um

• 23:14Speaker 03

  just like bogged down with a tragedy of those circumstances. I think like even from working in that community, I'm still very much involved, it's like. There is a great deal of tragedy, of course, and severity to it, but at the same time, what exists alongside it is exuberance and comedy and fullness and, you know.

• 23:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right, it's not twenty four seven misery, of course. No one's life is, thankfully.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  No, no. And because, and oftentimes, you find that people that have gone to the sort of, the brink of morality or experience or also, yeah, also exists alongside that is this kind of fullness of life, which, which I wanted to try and tap into and celebrate as well and give a new sort of lens to that experience.

• 24:03Josh Horowitz?

  You, you, you mentioned kind of like, look, you, you definitely lean in and I've, we've talked about like, you know, your influence of like, Ken Loach and Mike Lee and that kind of thing, but you do kind of like, at certain points, kind of, go for it a little bit and kind of break through, break out of kind of the, the realism. Um, was that a debate, it sounds like, or kind of like, what are, what are those choices about in terms of like, you could have certainly just made this feel total docudrama.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:29Josh Horowitz?

  Um, but you chose to kind of go a little Lynchian a couple of times.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, even if you like, I mean, I've gotten rid of my old shorts, but my old shorts, even from when I was a kid, were, they, they really did dance the line between like surrealism and, and realism. And, and I've always been interested in that because I am interested in fantasy as well. And I'm interested in how we kind of, um, as people look for escape as well, right? And I think it was, is it important if we're talking about, uh, addiction, trauma and also what comes into that is, is sort of, um, escapism and surrealism as well and like what the mind can

• 25:11Speaker 03

  do in those circumstances. Um, and then, yeah, I think like, uh, the, the likes of Mike Lee, like, I think, well, Ken Loach is a different, I, I see them in much different realms because Mike Lee finds way more absurdity in the everyday, right? Or the, the sort of humor in the absurdity of, of, of people, the sort of silliness of who we are, right? And I think that, that really fascinates me as well. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm also like. I think the people I love the most, people like Liam Ramsey or Agnes Varda that also play with a more sort of cinematic.

• 25:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Or Leo Carracks, you know, people that can create really realistic uh set of circumstances and then take the audience on a more cinematic experience, I always find really interesting and challenging, you know, like also like it can be pretentious, like my ideas.

• 26:05Josh Horowitz?

  Right, it's a fine line.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  It's a fine line and I was constantly worried about, you know, feeling like I was trying to do something that was ultimately gonna be pretentious. And I think that was a conversation we constantly had, especially with uh D O P who is like allergic to that and was always like challenging it and in the best way possible, so was I, yeah.

• 26:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, what about, okay, I mean Frank Delivers an amazing performance in this year lead, Frank Delaney, like remarkable.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:32Josh Horowitz?

  Um I haven't seen him in a ton of things, I mean, I know his work and his dad's work, obviously, I mean remarkable. But um you take a smaller supporting role in this.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:40Josh Horowitz?

  Um.

• 26:42Speaker 03

  We had, well, we had an actor drop out last minute for that.

• 26:44Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, was that right?

• 26:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, we had um we had someone lined up and then ultimately.

• 26:49Josh Horowitz?

  I can, I can, I can have a bloody nose, I can do that, I can do that.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:53Josh Horowitz?

  Um but, I mean, talk to me about, you know, directing actors, directing a big guy appear. Um was it a joyous experience, is it a stressful experience, kind of like, I don't know, like what are your directions like to Frank? Or do you kind of let him have free rein?

• 27:09Speaker 03

  I mean, we were, we were quite specific, I mean, I think we we were lucky, we had rehearsals, we had like a week, a week and a bit of rehearsals um before. And also what was great with Frank is that we had um he signed on a long time before, like even before we had full financing, he kind of committed to the film and uh agreed to start prepping with me, like long before.

• 27:34Josh Horowitz?

  It was a real thing, yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think that really gave us like, it gave us like seven, eight months of just

• 27:40Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  working together and he, you know, I connected him with various different people and he was also working in the community and stuff and so it it kind of gave us this really slow uh gentle build into it where we were getting to know each other in a way that was like quite personal. And then in terms of on set, I think that Frank is someone who's, I mean, he's been to drama school, he's done, you know, he's a technical actor, he'll, he'll, he'll come in with a lot of ideas and. It was a mixture. I mean, sometimes I would I would try and free him of those choices because he's, you know, you sort of come in with ideas, you kind of wanna break break away from that and try and see what happens in the moment.

• 28:17Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  He's, I mean, he's the most, he's the most versatile, um, uh, sort of cantankerous kind of actor. I mean that in the most positive way, like he will really give you everything. And um, uh, he won't mind me saying this, but sometimes those that those everythings don't work and he knows that.

• 28:35Josh Horowitz?

  Sure, yeah, yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  And he's brave enough to try that that those things. And I I I love that because it's like you get these really bold choices that um, like even in the audition room, he came in and he was reading the scene between him and Andrea and he was, it was like an argument scene, but he read it like really gently and he was like doing Tai Chi. I was like, okay, this is, I think this is the guy like.

• 28:56Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Um, because also that kind of role, like uh, i- in British cinema, there are, you know, if you think, there there there's a stereotype, right? The sort of unruly.

• 29:07Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Um, young man.

• 29:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Criminal, like, there's a stereotype. And I think we were really keen to try and flip that on its head and find a new way of experiencing this kind of character. Frank was the perfect uh, mix of all those things. Um, but yeah, he's deeply sensitive and and thoughtful. So he's, he's just the kind of actor that will think so deeply about stuff and and really offer a lot. So it's just a director's dream, really.

• 29:36Josh Horowitz?

  What's it been like s- s- slightly now on the other side of this now where it's starting to be seen by people, film festivals and soon by a wider audience? I mean, like I said, the Cannes reception was pretty phenomenal. It must have been a hell of a moment. You'd been to Cannes before, but to be there as a filmmaker and to be well received, it must just be such an exhale.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 29:54Josh Horowitz?

  Because you're in your own head for years and then.

• 29:57Speaker 03

  Oh, man, yeah. It was the most vulnerable thing. Cannes was like. I don't think I've ever been so nervous for something before. I've I've I've managed to kind of cope with those things in the past by, you know.

• 30:09Josh Horowitz?

  You're a part of someone else's machine, kind of, right?

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, and or I've I've I've kind of managed to like numb my emotions by not by by just kind of being playing it cool and not not allowing myself to experience things fully.

• 30:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  And that means I've also been able to cope with it.

• 30:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  But this this experience with my own film, I really tried to allow myself to experience it properly. And so I think I sort of checked in with myself and was like, look, just let yourself feel something here.

• 30:36Josh Horowitz?

  For once, just.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're allowed to feel something here. And it also meant I was incredibly nervous, though. It also meant I went into that screening and was,

• 30:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 03

  you know, terrified like a like a little child. And then, um, you know, ten minutes in and you're feeling the energy in the room and you're feeling laughs and it's like the most, you know, it's the warmest reception you could ask for and everyone's kind of,

• 31:01Speaker 03

  you know, with you, it feels like they're with the film. And and then, of course, people, people like it and whatever. But more than more than that, it's like it resonated and people got what we were trying to say and people got the got the message or whatever it is. And so it was just, yeah, it was a rewarding and vulnerable. Yeah. And of course, then we party and you go crazy and then you do, yeah.

• 31:27Josh Horowitz?

  Now we'll do it again, I tell you, right? All over again.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:29Josh Horowitz?

  Um, tell me a little bit more about like, so you you've talked with me and others about influences growing up, you know, Michael Lee's, the Ken Loaches, et cetera. Um, I mean, that couldn't have been the first stuff you were watching, though. You don't dive right into Michael Lee as a kid. You find that as a teenager, presumably.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was as a young teenager. I mean, my my mum's, my mum sort of noticed when I was making those short films.

• 31:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  She sort of noticed that I was sort of getting into more like drama.

• 31:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  Like, I guess, representing people that were around us as well in our, like, world. And she put me on to the Mike Lee, the Shane Meadows stuff. But then,

• 32:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  um, and same with my dad, you know, my dad would would would put me on to bits. But, um, again, yeah, normal, normal, like, entrance into cinema was just the tent pole.

• 32:20Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  blockbusters and and the the stuff that we had on. Uh V H S and stuff, my my I had older brothers, so they always used to watch.

• 32:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:28Speaker 03

  A lot of things that I shouldn't be watching. I remember like, you know, the Donnie Darko or the American Beauty and that was always like. Quite disturbing or the Butterfly Effect, like those um very young and then and then, yeah, we had a cinema near us that we used to sneak into and. Change our date of birth on our passport and stuff and do all of that, but no, I wasn't particularly um.

• 32:52Josh Horowitz?

  Not a.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Vers in cinema as a as a kid.

• 32:55Josh Horowitz?

  Not Harry Potter kid.

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Uh no, not really.

• 32:59Josh Horowitz?

  Really.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  People tried to get me in, people tried to like force me to be like a Harry Potter kid because my name. Harris Harry, people called me Harry, so it was like, oh, you must be, you know, buying me all the like ones and shit. I was like, I don't know if that's me, but um.

• 33:13Josh Horowitz?

  Got it. So was was there a was there a franchise you were into? You went through a phase on? Was there a a Star Wars, a Star Trek, a Lord of the Rings?

• 33:23Speaker 03

  Lord of the Rings I loved.

• 33:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  Lord of the Rings I loved um and I read all of the like Hunger Games and.

• 33:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  The the maze runner series when I was a kid, but then also just like a Batman, like I think I said to you before, like Batman was my. And Spider-Man, the O G Spider-Mans.

• 33:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:41Josh Horowitz?

  Best.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  The best.

• 33:43Josh Horowitz?

  What do you remember the first, give me the first actor you kind of went down a rabbit hole on and filmmakers, like what what which were the ones that you kind of like started to like, okay. I'm obsessed with this person. I'm gonna see as much as possible that they were involved in.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:56Josh Horowitz?

  Who for pops to mind?

• 33:58Speaker 03

  I mean, Gary Oldman was one that I watched really young in um in I think I first watched him in True Romance and then I went I went through and sort of. Got through all of his work and was just like, okay, this guy's next level. And then Leon the Professional was.

• 34:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Was kind of doing the rounds or on on DVD or whatever at the time. And then um Philip Seymour Hoffman.

• 34:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:22Speaker 03

  Was another one.

• 34:23Josh Horowitz?

  These are the correct answers for the record, those two.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's kind of enough, isn't it?

• 34:27Josh Horowitz?

  I mean.

• 34:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um and then Philip Seymour Hoffman led me into P T A.

• 34:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  I know, because that and that made me, okay, so there's frequent collaborations there and then I kind of went down that. Um wormhole and that and then yeah, it's it's but it's it's a constant thing, isn't it?

• 34:45Josh Horowitz?

  What's um have you met Gary? Have you worked with Gary? No.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  I've met Gary. I met Gary on a on a photo shoot once. He had his flies undone. And I probably badly timed it and when I said hello.

• 34:57Speaker 03

  And he was just like shook his yeah, I was like, sorry, I'll let you do your trousers up.

• 35:00Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, or don't.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Leave him. Yeah.

• 35:02Josh Horowitz?

  He's the best. He's not my guy. I grew up obsessed with the professional Dracula, all of it. But he could do everything.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:09Josh Horowitz?

  Um, and PTA, what's your top PTA? Give me, are you a Magnolia guy? Are you a?

• 35:15Speaker 03

  I think the Masters probably.

• 35:16Josh Horowitz?

  Masters is pretty great.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  Probably up there for me. Um. Yeah, I was reading about him the other day. He's he's I haven't actually seen Hard Eight.

• 35:24Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 35:25Speaker 03

  Um, but I was reading that because he made that when he was like twenty four.

• 35:28Josh Horowitz?

  I know.

• 35:29Speaker 03

  Right?

• 35:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  And and and he and he tried to call it Sydney.

• 35:32Josh Horowitz?

  Sydney, yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. And um and then he and then he made Boogie Nights at like twenty seven.

• 35:38Josh Horowitz?

  It's crazy to think, but hey, look at you. I mean, you're yeah, you're not so far.

• 35:42Speaker 03

  But Boogie Nights is a different level, man. That's yeah.

• 35:44Josh Horowitz?

  Um.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. That scene when Steve Offen tries to show Mark Wahlberg's character, he's he's he's gone and he kisses him. He's like, I just wanted to show you. I just wanted to show you, man.

• 35:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, so sad, so sweet.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  You upset with me?

• 35:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  I'm excited for his new one, man.

• 36:04Josh Horowitz?

  I've heard good things. I've heard good things.

• 36:44Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade, hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 37:17Josh Horowitz?

  I still haven't unearthed your Grease videos, your music, your musical work as a child. I've been working overtime trying to...

• 37:24Speaker 03

  You're not gonna, man. You're not gonna.

• 37:27Josh Horowitz?

  How many musicals were you in as a kid? Was it just Grease or were there multiple?

• 37:30Speaker 03

  No, I did Hairspray as well.

• 37:33Josh Horowitz?

  The lead? Were you a...

• 37:35Speaker 03

  No, I played Corny Collins.

• 37:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, right, that's right.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  But it was, here's the thing, like, it was, I'm not a musical theater boy. I really am not. It's not a natural thing for me. I think at the time, I did it because my girlfriend was doing it and I wanted to spend more time with her. That sounds like a cop-out. And I would, I think I'm, you know, I'm open enough to be like, absolutely loved it, wanted to do it for me. But the truth is, I didn't, and I didn't love doing it. And it wasn't like, I knew, I kind of knew that, like, people around me were doing singing, dancing, and acting as a thing. And there was people around me that were like, "Oh, you need to do all three. You need to be, you need to be well versed in all three, it's like an important part." I was just like, "I don't, I don't want to."

• 38:17Josh Horowitz?

  Like, Gary Oldman has done a musical, it's okay, you don't have to do it all. And he's still Gary Oldman.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  He's fine, yeah. But then I got to a point where I was like, "Okay, I'm good, I think I can just be an actor, it's okay."

• 38:29Josh Horowitz?

  Then again, you are gonna be a Beatle, so you're, you know...

• 38:31Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, but that's different. It's different, isn't it? It's different.

• 38:35Josh Horowitz?

  Were you skateboarding versus acting? What was the bigger obsession as a teenager?

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Um.

• 38:43Josh Horowitz?

  Would you, would you rather, if I had called you at fifteen, would you rather have met Tony Hawk or Daniel Day-Lewis?

• 38:49Speaker 03

  Oh, no, Tony Hawk, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, I went, I met Ryan Sheckler when I was fourteen, I think he was like peak of his skateboard fame and he signed my skateboard, I've still got it. Um, but yeah, that was it. I would have loved to have been a pro skateboarder. I would have been, I would have enjoyed it that, yeah. I think I did try and get sponsored as well.

• 39:11Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  I was like sending videos, I mean, I was crap. I was never gonna get sponsored, but at least I could try.

• 39:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  Um.

• 39:18Josh Horowitz?

  It worked out. You got, their backup plan was okay.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Backup plan was okay. Um, and then, and then of course, but then there was a lot of filmmakers that reminded, like, obviously Spike Jonze and like, you know, Harmony Quinn and that, that was also my entrance into like.

• 39:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  That, that kind of like, um, like renegade filmmaker.

• 39:35Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  Cassavetes as well, you know, like making more like, okay, there's a, there's a thing here.

• 39:40Josh Horowitz?

  Did you discover like Heath Ledger, Wards of Dogtown?

• 39:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I really, I really loved Heath Ledger as well. I mean, he, he, he, he, he'd just come off of, um, Dark Knight and then, uh, was it Dark Knight? Yeah.

• 39:55Josh Horowitz?

  Dark, Dark Knight and, uh, was, and then he was doing the Terry Gilliam film was when he passed. That was the, yeah, that was it.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  Because he did, he did, um, Ten Things I Hate About You.

• 40:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  And I remember he, he's saying in his doc that he, he was just getting offered a load of things in that world, right? For like a year, he had to just say no to stuff.

• 40:14Josh Horowitz?

  Again, like, you know, talking about your contemporaries, it's like you guys, there's a reason you guys talk about something like Heath. It's like he was that guy that like, could have gone down a very tried and true banal.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:26Josh Horowitz?

  Movie star path and been fine.

• 40:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:28Josh Horowitz?

  But his interests were in playing Bob Dylan and in Todd Haynes movies and.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:33Josh Horowitz?

  And Brokeback and.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:35Josh Horowitz?

  That's where the, that's where the fun is, working with the great filmmakers, Ang Lee, et cetera.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 40:39Josh Horowitz?

  Um, so when did, okay, so you're, you're, you go to theater school, yes?

• 40:45Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 40:46Josh Horowitz?

  Out of that, do the auditions come fast and furious? Like, when did it start to take off? When did Beach Rats happen versus theater work, et cetera?

• 40:54Speaker 03

  I left college early. I left college a year early because I wasn't having a great time and I wanted to focus on auditions. Um, and then.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  I guess it was around three years or so, three or four years of me kind of working in a hotel. I worked in the hotel. I actually worked in the hotel that's in the film.

• 41:13Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my god.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I was a litter picker in that same field.

• 41:17Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  Where they litter pick. So that was both my jobs. I was doing them at the same time. And then I was doing that for a bit, and then I got Beach Rats.

• 41:25Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  And then after Beach Rats, I.

• 41:28Josh Horowitz?

  So that changed things immediately in terms of?

• 41:30Speaker 03

  It didn't change things immediately because I did that job and then I had to go back to working in the hotel. And then when it came out, it changed things. So it came out a year after. Did really well at Sundance and.

• 41:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  You know, and then it kind of threw me into the industry a bit. And from that, I got some more work, luckily.

• 41:49Josh Horowitz?

  What was it like in that interim period, doing Beach Rats and then going back to work?

• 41:53Speaker 03

  Well, I didn't know what Beach Rats was gonna be. I had no understanding of, you know, I'd seen obviously Eliza's film. But I still wasn't aware of, like even when I got nominated for a Gotham Award and an indie spirit. I didn't really know.

• 42:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  That that was like a great thing. I didn't, I was just like, oh, all right, yeah. Like, I wasn't really clued up about the industry.

• 42:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Or like fully in the know of like our cinema. I just was like, all right, whatever. And then ended up doing really well and, you know, being a beautiful piece of work.

• 42:25Josh Horowitz?

  Did, I'm trying to think actually because about, you know, our past conversations. And I'm wondering, did you go to Comic Con for Darkest Minds?

• 42:31Speaker 03

  I did, yeah.

• 42:32Josh Horowitz?

  I think we met there, actually, now that I'm thinking about it.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, we did. That was the first time we met.

• 42:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that was it. So you were, again, someone in your age group at the time. That was kind of the tail end of that kind of wave, the YA kind of.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:45Josh Horowitz?

  Thing.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:46Josh Horowitz?

  So were you going up for a lot of that kind of stuff? I don't know, was Maze Runner still being made when you were?

• 42:50Speaker 03

  No, they weren't still making Maze Runner. I think they were, they were sort of finishing that off, but.

• 42:55Josh Horowitz?

  But what kind of stuff were you going up for at that first wave of auditions?

• 42:59Speaker 03

  It was a lot of that kind of stuff. I mean, the. It was, there was, I was going out for a lot of television. I was going out for a lot of, it was when pilot season was still a thing. I did pilot season.

• 43:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  In L A a few times and that was like.

• 43:13Josh Horowitz?

  This is not feel right, does not feel right for me, I'm sure.

• 43:15Speaker 03

  No, yeah, but I didn't know. I didn't, I was just honestly like, it felt like such a far away.

• 43:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:23Speaker 03

  Industry and opportunities, like I was willing to do anything, like I wasn't.

• 43:28Josh Horowitz?

  Sure, at that stage.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  I wasn't at the point where I'm like, okay, let's curate a career. I was just like, let me just get any job.

• 43:35Josh Horowitz?

  Sort of filling up the resume with something.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  I just do anything. And then, and then, yeah, so I was doing some adverts as well. I did a few, I did a few adverts out of the U K and then a few bit parts in telly and then Beatrice Game and then Darkseid Minds came and it felt like a sort of new opportunity. It wasn't necessarily the work I was like.

• 43:51Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  Watching or like, but I, I think it felt like a, an opportunity to work on a, on a bigger scale and understand like a studio film.

• 43:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  Um.

• 44:01Josh Horowitz?

  It is striking though, like in those, even those first couple of years, the dichotomy of your work and like you say, you don't really have choice early on, but somehow you were like, you know, you're in the Maleficent, but then you have like twenty twenty one, you're in Souvenir, but you're also in The Kingsman. And then twenty twenty two, you're in Triangle.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:18Josh Horowitz?

  But you're also in When the Crawdads Sing. So it's, it's this very interesting bifurcation.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, it is weird. When I look back at that C V like, I'm like, what, what's going on there? I don't know like how those things, like the polarity between them is wild.

• 44:33Josh Horowitz?

  Cause only so much, I mean, you have more, a little more control now, but back then.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  I guess it wasn't, yeah, I, I guess there wasn't much, um, option. I think it was like what was coming in and it felt like.

• 44:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Like the, the Maleficent thing was so intriguing to me because like to, to play a prince in a, in a Disney film was like so, and at the same time I was doing County Lines, which was like, I don't know if you saw that movie. But it's like a British, very dark film about like drug trafficking and I was playing like a, like, you know, a drug leader out of London and it was the most like. Yeah, most opposite work, but I kind of loved that as well. I was like, okay, I don't know. There's not a world, no other world in which I'm gonna be offered like a Disney prince. It's kind of like

• 45:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  Funny to me that I've been like asked to do this, that if they knew me and like knew, you know, where I'm from and that, it's just, it's just funny to me. So, um, yeah, I kind of, I kind of took all of that. And, and again, like, looking at the people I admired, the, the, the Gary Oldmans or the even like the Christian Bale or like the, the finding like difference in characters. I was always fascinated with that. Like the idea that I could be perceived as, you know, stark characters was, was intriguing to me.

• 45:52Josh Horowitz?

  The, in terms of the directors you've been working with and the, the experiences in recent years that have really changed your, your view or changed you as a filmmaker. I mean, I would imagine Triangle of Sadness. I would imagine Baby Girl, those collaborations. Did those two stand out as ones that kind of shifted you as both an actor and just as a creative?

• 46:10Speaker 03

  For sure, yeah. And, and same with Joe and the Hog, you know, working on the souvenir, albeit short, it was a really special experience and, and yeah, Triangle of Sadness and same with Sean Durkin. It was like, you know, you work with people and you just know what, um, you just know the good ones are, you know, it's like, okay, this is, this changes things creatively as well. It kind of puts you into a different space where you, you wanna be. And Ruben, Ruben was one of the most, um, that really

• 46:39Speaker 03

  felt like it challenged me as a creative and pushed me in the best ways possible and opened up my eyes to, to a whole new style of, well, a whole new level of filmmaking, you know, and aspiration.

• 46:51Josh Horowitz?

  We spoke last for Baby Girl, which was this very unique film in many respects and then became, you know, the memified version of it. There's also like the internet version of it too, like the celebrity version of it too.

• 47:04Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know, has that affect kind of like public perception of you? Do you feel a difference like in a bar, does somebody send a glass of milk over to you? Like, does that weird stuff happen associated with Baby Girl?

• 47:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, if I'm honest, there was a big part of that that I really didn't enjoy. Um, like, speaking openly, I absolutely loved, I loved, I'm proud to be a part of that film and I'm proud to have worked on it and, you know, I love Helena and working in the coal was just the most

• 47:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, exciting thing for me, but um, the way, the way that the or the way the internet, the way the fans sort of reduced some of it was quite was quite strange, but again, you can't really control that and you can't really get caught up in it. Um, but people are strange.

• 47:53Josh Horowitz?

  People are strange and you don't want that to ruin the 99% of the experience, which was the making of it and the finished product was great. But yes, you slice and dice it and you memify it and then it turns into something, another different currency. It's a different thing.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, like I, I, I think it's kind of

• 48:11Speaker 03

  I mean, I think it's okay to do this to male actors, weirdly. That's the problem.

• 48:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  I think it's become okay and acceptable to do that and to, to younger male actors. Whereas if we're in a conversation now, we're like, for example, I get a lot of women say things to me that are deeply inappropriate.

• 48:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  You know, and um, like when I was doing that press and when we were doing the Q and As and stuff, afterwards, there were some situations that were like completely unacceptable.

• 48:40Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 48:41Speaker 03

  You know, and it's kind of just, it's, you're expected to just laugh it off.

• 48:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 03

  And I think that's why I struggled with that experience. And, you know, people could say, oh, well, you, you did a film that you knew was going to be somewhat erotic and it's like, yeah, but the, the, the film that we made and the, the, the approach that Helena spoke about, for me, it was something way more, um.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  Uh, unique, right? It wasn't like a, a, a, a reductive thing from in my mind, like I, I saw it as one thing and then, and then I guess you can't control the perception of it and the way that people wanna

• 49:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  talk about it and the narrative. But yeah, it is, it is a strange thing and I'm, and I feel like I'm constantly rejecting that a little bit, like even on the plane, someone was like, oh, can you dance for me? And then she's like, oh, this, you won't believe what I was when I watched that film. I won't say the rest. And it's like, that's the what, that's not okay. Like, I don't wanna know about your, like, sexual experience with

• 49:40Josh Horowitz?

  That's fascinating.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  this story. Like, it's

• 49:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  it is odd.

• 49:44Josh Horowitz?

  Um, we can talk a little Beatles now, at least that's official. We know, like, last time you couldn't even say anything.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:50Josh Horowitz?

  So congratulations. This is gonna be a hell of an undertaking.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  Thanks, man.

• 49:53Josh Horowitz?

  Um, you're with quite a group of young actors, Sam Mendes, and it's gonna be, this is gonna be a long one. Four films. Could you just give me a little background, just how it happened? Like, was there like a rigorous kind of like audition process, like a lot of meetings with Sam? Was there internal debate? Was this a no brainer? Or just a little bit of just how it came about?

• 50:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, um, I met, I met Sam, uh, sort of mid-year last year as I was finishing off my film and he, I, I honestly, I thought he was gonna sort of ask me to audition for, I don't know, like a sound engineer or something. Like, I, I never expected him to say, uh, John Lennon. And, um, there was obviously a it, it sounds like it would be a no brainer, but I think for me, I was like, oh God, I don't think there's always the, the fear and doubt and insecurity of like, am I the person to, to take on that role? Um, but I think ultimately it was like, okay, well, this is such a, a unique opportunity with

• 50:58Speaker 03

  such an exceptional filmmaker and an amazing group of people. And at the time, it was only Paul that was, um, that was on it. So if, for me, it was just a very, yeah, obviously I'm gonna do this. It wasn't like a, yeah, the doubts were very quickly eradicated.

• 51:15Josh Horowitz?

  Um, the singing part of it, is that, how big is that in terms of the, the preparation, on your mind, the?

• 51:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's a huge part of it. It's been like, it feels like it's been coming up to a year now of, of music stuff, which is Obviously necessary.

• 51:32Josh Horowitz?

  Like, are you and Paul and Joe and Barry, like, playing together yet? Or are you?

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:40Josh Horowitz?

  That's gotta be something.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. It's funny, you you you go into, I don't wanna say too much, but you go into a process like this and you think, God, I'm never gonna be able to do this.

• 51:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  And then you look back and eight months have gone by and you're all miraculously doing it.

• 51:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  And it's the the the power of like repetition and hours and what people hold in your accountable is is.

• 52:01Josh Horowitz?

  Quite a motivator.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  It's a it's a real motivator, yeah. And and they've got the most incredible music team that are just really putting us through our paces and and ensuring that we're, you know, we're really getting up to speed musically. So I think it's gonna be a really special set of films and Sam is the most phenomenally focused and aspiring director to do this. So.

• 52:29Josh Horowitz?

  It's gonna be a journey. It's gonna be amazing. Already, it sounds like it is.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  It's gonna be a thing, yeah.

• 52:33Josh Horowitz?

  Um, are you at the point, again, my obligatory obligatory superhero question that comes up the last 10 years, like, where are you at now? Like, did you, I read different things. Did you audition for Superman? Did you ever do? No, you didn't do that one. Okay.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  I wasn't interested.

• 52:47Josh Horowitz?

  I imagine you've done a couple of those superhero auditions.

• 52:50Speaker 03

  I actually haven't.

• 52:50Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 52:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I actually haven't.

• 52:52Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  Have I? No, I haven't.

• 52:57Josh Horowitz?

  These X-Men rumors, is there anything to that?

• 52:59Speaker 03

  No.

• 53:00Josh Horowitz?

  Is that, but is that just not of interest? If Kevin Feige wants to have a conversation or he wants to have that conversation or?

• 53:06Speaker 03

  It depends, doesn't it? It depends on the role. I I think, like, if I'm being totally honest, I don't think I've seen anything in the last five to 10 years in that universe that has been exceptionally interesting.

• 53:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:20Speaker 03

  Character wise.

• 53:21Josh Horowitz?

  Hmm.

• 53:22Speaker 03

  The villains.

• 53:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  On the other hand.

• 53:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 53:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 53:28Speaker 03

  But if I'm being more, if I'm being totally honest, yeah, working with like all type filmmakers that have a very distinct thing to say intrigues me more with characters that are probably more closely related to the real world in some way.

• 53:44Josh Horowitz?

  I get it.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Um.

• 53:45Josh Horowitz?

  That being said, Denis Villeneuve is doing James Bond. That makes James Bond suddenly pretty damn interesting.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  That's true. No, and also the role of James Bond is interesting. The circumstances of Bond are interesting.

• 53:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  Like the, the, the, the character, the world, what he goes through, that's interesting. It's like, you have a director like Denis, it's like, there's no doubt that they're gonna be, yeah.

• 54:09Josh Horowitz?

  I'd like to start manifesting. That, that could be interesting. Have you thought about that? I mean, have you even, in your mind's eye, thought about, I don't know, that as an idea?

• 54:19Speaker 03

  Uh, of course.

• 54:20Josh Horowitz?

  In practicality, yeah.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Of course, yeah, of course.

• 54:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. All right, we're gonna end with this. Happy second fuse profoundly random questionnaire. You've never done the podcast, so this is part of the deal. We end with this. Dogs or cats?

• 54:30Speaker 03

  Harris. Uh, I've got a cat, so I should say a cat.

• 54:33Josh Horowitz?

  You should. That'd be a betrayal of your cat.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  I do love dogs.

• 54:39Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect, if anything?

• 54:41Speaker 03

  Uh, I collect pins.

• 54:44Josh Horowitz?

  Pins?

• 54:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:45Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Do you have a favorite pin?

• 54:47Speaker 03

  I've got pins on my.

• 54:48Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a cherished pin, like what you're?

• 54:51Speaker 03

  Um, I found an urchin pin on my, in Copenhagen that I bought and I thought that seems fitting.

• 54:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yes. Favorite video game of all time?

• 55:01Speaker 03

  Uh, GTA.

• 55:02Josh Horowitz?

  Nice. Uh, to go to Johnson Memorial question, she asked me this. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 55:12Speaker 03

  One bee in my butt?

• 55:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  Who would rather have a mouthful of bees?

• 55:16Josh Horowitz?

  It's a very rare answer.

• 55:17Speaker 03

  She asked you that?

• 55:18Josh Horowitz?

  She did ask.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  When?

• 55:20Josh Horowitz?

  I was asking her, would you rather questions, and she totally won up to me. She's like, I have one for you, Josh, and it's haunted me ever since, as it will you now.

• 55:28Speaker 03

  That's wild.

• 55:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, she's a wild lady. Uh, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 55:33Speaker 03

  It's a photo, it's a Dante painting.

• 55:35Josh Horowitz?

  Nice, okay.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  Pretentious, I need to change it.

• 55:38Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, you're good. Uh, last actor you were mistaken for?

• 55:42Speaker 03

  Um.

• 55:49Speaker 03

  Drew Stocky.

• 55:52Josh Horowitz?

  What were the circumstances? Is that just a?

• 55:54Speaker 03

  I was in America and someone, someone was like, are you Drew? No, you're not. I was like, no.

• 56:00Josh Horowitz?

  Big OB X fan, but that's not me.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, someone, someone, someone, A- A- Alan, um, Alan Cummings came up to me and thought I was a ballerina. Recently. I was like, nope, nope, no, no, no, no.

• 56:19Josh Horowitz?

  Worst noted director has ever given you?

• 56:22Speaker 03

  Do again, but better. Genuine note.

• 56:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 56:26Speaker 03

  Do again, but better and don't touch your hair. Don't like it when you touch your hair.

• 56:31Josh Horowitz?

  I don't like that.

• 56:32Speaker 03

  Don't like that. Don't do it again.

• 56:34Josh Horowitz?

  And do it better.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:36Josh Horowitz?

  And in the spirit of happy second fuse, an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're instantly happier.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Adam Sandler.

• 56:43Josh Horowitz?

  Comes up a lot. Movie that makes you sad?

• 56:47Speaker 03

  I mean, I just watched Hamlet and that was incredibly sad.

• 56:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's hardly, yeah. Sounds like that's the one this year.

• 56:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:52Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, and a food that makes you confused.

• 56:54Speaker 03

  But The Secret Garden always makes me sad. The boy in the bath, I always felt very sorry for him.

• 56:59Josh Horowitz?

  What was the food one? Last one is the food that makes you, excuse me, the food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 57:06Speaker 03

  Oh, um. Like pickled herring?

• 57:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no.

• 57:12Speaker 03

  Support.

• 57:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I'm with you.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean?

• 57:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Why?

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Why? Don't need that.

• 57:17Josh Horowitz?

  Why?

• 57:18Speaker 03

  Why? Don't need it.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  But you do you.

• 57:23Josh Horowitz?

  You do you.

• 57:24Speaker 03

  What's yours?

• 57:25Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, I have a few beets. I'm not a beets guy.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  You're not?

• 57:28Josh Horowitz?

  No. Mushrooms. I have a few. I'm a little particular.

• 57:32Speaker 03

  You don't like mushrooms? No mushrooms?

• 57:34Josh Horowitz?

  No mushrooms.

• 57:34Speaker 03

  I hate the big ones.

• 57:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I can get.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  The big portobello ones?

• 57:37Josh Horowitz?

  I can get down, I can get down with like a truffle on something.

• 57:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:42Josh Horowitz?

  But that's me. That's the next conversation. We did it, buddy. Congratulations.

• 57:46Speaker 03

  Thanks, mate.

• 57:46Josh Horowitz?

  I think we were semi coherent for eight thirty in the morning.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  I hope so.

• 57:50Josh Horowitz?

  During the film festival.

• 57:51Speaker 03

  Don't remember what I said, but I appreciate you having me, man.

• 57:53Josh Horowitz?

  I'm.

• 57:53Speaker 03

  Always lovely seeing you.

• 57:54Josh Horowitz?

  It's lovely to see you. Honestly, congratulations. I was so excited when I knew you were doing this film and then even more excited when I saw it and see that you absolutely killed it. People check out Urchin. Support this guy as both an actor and a filmmaker. A lot more to come. Thanks again, buddy.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  Thank you, mate. Cheers.

• 58:12Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.

• 58:32Speaker 06

  As wish lists grow, you know where to go. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro and more. Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Baumann, Clinique or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty.