Darren Aronofsky, Vol. II

Darren Aronofsky's films (REQUIEM FOR A DREAM, BLACK SWAN) have been a lot of things but fun probably isn't the first word that comes to mind. Now with CAUGHT STEALING he's using his powers for a different cause. He joins Josh to chat about his journey from provocateur to his latest film. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Get this. When you're with Xfinity, you're already a member. No sign up, no cost. Score epic experiences from our family at NBC Universal. Plus movie tickets, discounts on streaming, mobile, and more. Check the Xfinity app every Thursday for exclusive perks and experiences. Only with Xfinity. Now that's the way to start a weekend. Let the magic begin. Restrictions apply. Visit Xfinity.com/membership to learn more.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Hey Mitch. You've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Make them remember you.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Weeping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  There's something so important about storytelling because every single person in the world can remember seeing a movie where it blew them away and they remember the exact theater, the exact time, the exact place where they were when they walked out and that feeling. And there's no one that's had a two-hour session on TikTok that knows where the [BLEEP] they were. So for maybe their couch or their bed. But that was memorable in an emotional way. And that's the power of stories.

• 1:14Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:22Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, I'm Josh and this is another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused with the one and only Darren Aronofsky, one of my favorite filmmakers on the podcast. After a long, long break talking Caught Stealing, his entire career, his flirtation with comic book movies, and so much more. Thanks, guys, as always, for watching, for listening, however you're enjoying this episode of Happy, Sad, Confused. You guys know I love a great filmmaker and Darren Aronofsky certainly fits the bill. A very formative filmmaker for me growing up. So thrilled that he is back on the podcast. Before we get to Darren, a quick reminder, as always, hit up our Patreon, check out what we've got going over there. That's where you get announcements like who's coming up on the podcast,

• 2:06Josh Horowitz?

  bonus materials, merch, autographed posters, announcements of live events. We've been doing a lot of live events lately and there are many, many more to come. I will be at New York Comic Con doing a lot of things. I will be doing stuff at 92nd Street Y. Other places, things, announcements to come. And as always, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused is the place for all of that news. Check it out. Okay, let's talk about Darren for a second. Darren is one of those guys who, look, I'm a guy of a certain age and for guys of a certain age, he was and is and always will be a very important filmmaker. I mean,

• 2:47Josh Horowitz?

  I've seen all of his films. I think this is his ninth film perhaps, and have been a fan of all of them to different degrees. Certainly, the early work made a huge impression on me. Pie and Requiem for a Dream and The Fountain. And then, you know, as my career progressed, I started to get to know Darren and talk to him over the years about films like Black Swan, and The Wrestler, and Mother. So, he's a fascinating guy. He's a New Yorker like myself, and I just love his big swings as a filmmaker. He was one of, actually, the first guests on

• 3:27Josh Horowitz?

  the podcast over 11 years ago, if you can believe it, talking Noah at the time. And somehow, it took 11 years to get him back on the podcast, but I'm thrilled it's happening for this. Caught Stealing is the film. It opens this Friday. It is, in some respects, a real change of pace for Darren. It is a fun movie. That's right. The F-word. Fun. Which is not necessarily something you could say about Darren's films in the past, as much as I've gotten tremendous amounts of enjoyment out of them. This movie's goal is different. It is to entertain and be an escape and be a ride. And we have a great vessel in Austin Butler. You guys know. I know and love.

• 4:11Josh Horowitz?

  He is our leading man in this, and he goes on quite the journey through New York City in 1998 in this. Definitely a story cut from the same cloth of Martin Scorsese's After Hours, and the works of Scorsese and Spike Lee, etc. So, really cool to see Darren channel his amazing filmmaking prowess in this way. He, as you'll hear in this conversation, is at a different point in his life where, you know, given where he's at, where the world's at, He is more open to these kinds of films. So it's an interesting time to talk to Darren about his priorities. This is a great chat. Always could have used more time, but hey, I'll take what I can get with someone like Darren. There'll be more chats to come and

• 4:56Josh Horowitz?

  it won't be another 11 years, I promise. But yeah, we talked a little bit about this film's connections to the past, to Pi, set in the same time period ironically, and also his flirtation over the years with these kind of, you know, comic book movies, big screen entertainments that he's, he's come very close to doing, whether it was Batman or Superman or Watchmen or Wolverine. So there's some stuff in there for folks that enjoy that kind of stuff. And there's also stuff in here talking about his work on things like Requiem and Pi and Black Swan. So something for everybody in this conversation. He's

• 5:37Josh Horowitz?

  just one of the, one of the cool guys to talk to. So really enjoyed this. If you want to see more of my conversations around Caught Stealing, coming soon, probably any day now on MTV's socials and YouTube page. Had a really fun catch up with Austin Butler and Zoe Kravitz. Actually, it was on Austin's birthday. Surprised Austin with a cake. It's very sweet. I've already posted the photo on social. So that was a really cool moment. And yeah, lots more excitement to come, guys. This, later this week on the podcast, we've got Benedict Cumberbatch and Olivia Colman together. Yep, you heard that right. Talking the roses and many other things. And then soon, very soon, I will be off to

• 6:22Josh Horowitz?

  some film festivals, seeing all the cool stuff this fall. Telluride, Toronto, recording some stuff out there, getting into the really fun time of year for us film nerds. So that's where we're at. Here we go, guys. Enjoy this conversation. Check out Caught Stealing this Friday in theaters. Support Darren, support Austin Butler, support Zoe Kravitz, support Matt Smith, playing a punk rocker. Amazing. And yeah, without any further ado, enjoy this conversation. Here's me and Darren Aronofsky. Darren Aronofsky, it's good to see you, man.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  Good to see you.

• 6:58Josh Horowitz?

  We're doing this. It's been, I was telling you before.

• 7:00Speaker 03

  Eleven years.

• 7:01Josh Horowitz?

  Eleven years.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:02Josh Horowitz?

  You were one of my first guests on the pod, so it means a lot that you're back.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  I'm glad that I'm not your first or last.

• 7:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, we're not done quite yet, nor are you. Congratulations on the film.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Thank you, brother.

• 7:12Josh Horowitz?

  Very much enjoyed it.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 7:14Josh Horowitz?

  I think the highest compliment I can pay you, and this is not a backhanded compliment, is that I feel like this is like a young filmmaker's movie. This is like a guy just starting out.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 7:23Josh Horowitz?

  You've been doing this a minute.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, maybe it's because I just, new leaf, new turn, wanted to try something different. I just sort of, I don't know, like, I just noticed my own habits of going to see movies right now, and I just really wanted two hours of escapism, something really fun. And not much else. So, kind of when I look at movies, I'm always like, well, eh, work, nah. I don't know, just lately, I've felt the need for this.

• 7:53Josh Horowitz?

  It does look, I mean, it, I love, first of all, like, Griffin Dunn right from the start, it's like, again, yeah, After Hours, I get it, we're in the, we're in the right vein here.

• 8:01Speaker 03

  By the way, since you're a film freak, in the movie, After Hours, his character's name is Paul.

• 8:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  And this is Paul's bar, but...

• 8:11Josh Horowitz?

  Same cinematic universe?

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Pure coincidence, pure coincidence, so.

• 8:15Josh Horowitz?

  Does this show a continuity, is this in the Darren Aronofsky universe? Are the pie characters running around at the same time? It's the same timeline.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's actually a bunch of hidden pies throughout the production design.

• 8:26Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 8:26Speaker 03

  And I'm, I've just decided right now to do a Easter egg hunt, and whoever gets the right amount gets a free copy of a sign script.

• 8:39Josh Horowitz?

  Look, there is like a punk aspect to this, you literally have a punk in the film, but like, talk to me a little bit about what it's like for you to still be kind of a punk filmmaker, you know, in your 50s as opposed to when you were starting out as a punk filmmaker in your 20s.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  Well, I like punk music, I still listen to punk music. It's funny, because I had my music supervisor, Gem Malone, make me playlists for which, for each actor in pre-production, we're actually gonna release them now on Spotify as part of the promotion, but... And the only one I really listened to was Russ's.

• 9:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Over and over again.

• 9:14Josh Horowitz?

  He's got good taste.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  I just love the old punk music.

• 9:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  I don't know, I think it's just the music I came up with at one of those founding moments. There's no, it's not weird that the Beastie Boys were originally a punk band. That's all, I think those aesthetics were floating in the water in the eighties in Brooklyn, so that's part of it.

• 9:34Josh Horowitz?

  It's interesting, because I know a lot of people are talking about this as kind of an outlier for you. And I get that in some ways, but also, it's funny to me that, look, you didn't write the script for this, but like, you're all over this movie. I mean, this is about, this is a film that's about addiction and redemption and paranoia and the setting. It's like, you could have written the script yourself. This does feel very much out of you. So I guess my question is like chicken or the egg? Does this come to you and you see all the themes that resonate with you? Or do you kind of put your own into it?

• 10:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, there's a reason I read the book eighteen years ago and responded and was excited by it. But then when it came back to us three years ago and I started working with Charlie, I was definitely pushing in certain directions.

• 10:21Speaker 03

  A big part was like the characters, which, I mean, was partly co-written by the casting process. You know, first, I think Russ, the next door neighbor, was just sort of a guy that looked like Hank. And I was like, that's not so interesting. And then I kind, you know, one of the great things about living in New York in a fifth floor walk-up for many years of my life is you just slowly find out that behind every door is another crazy New Yorker.

• 10:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  And I just imagined there could be an over the hill punk living in one of those doors. And so, you know, it started to go that way. Originally it was a guy with an American accent. And then I started doing the casting process and one really good actor came in who was English, who did it perfect American accent. But I was like, you know what? Try it in English and it was like, oh wow, that's interesting.

• 11:15Josh Horowitz?

  Uh huh.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  So then I was like, told Mary Venu the casting director, I was like, Let's look at British actors too, and then Matt shows up.

• 11:23Josh Horowitz?

  The president of the Matt Smith fan club, so yeah, I mean.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know how that, but so that that helped, and also New York City itself helped write it.

• 11:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  And that was me looking at locations to solve certain problems, and that led to certain things. So like the big kind of hostage handoff that turns into the chase scene, all happened in the baseball fields on the East River Park by the FDR. But that was being ripped up and redone, and also just trying to do a chase scene on the FDR would be extremely difficult.

• 11:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 03

  So just out of need, we just started looking, where else could we do it? And the idea of doing it in a park where there's no streets you have to shut down became very controllable. And then that linked us to Shea Stadium.

• 12:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  Because it's right there, and I had one of those aha moments. I'm like, oh, the Mets are there, and this whole Giants wild card backstory. So that's not in the book, it just sort of happened because we were really making it in New York City.

• 12:24Josh Horowitz?

  I appreciate that you honored the actual, as a New Yorker, the geography. I always think back to like, I love Die Hard with a Vengeance, it's a great New York film in many ways. Geography is all fucked up.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I can't, I can't do that. You know, the biggest geography jump for us is like when he gets on the seven train. I don't want to do any spoilers, and gets off before he goes to Coney. Like that, where he gets off the train, isn't quite appropriate.

• 12:46Josh Horowitz?

  We'll allow it, it's okay.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  You know what, that's the seven train, no one really knows those stations anyway. Exactly.

• 12:52Josh Horowitz?

  Are you stealing any shots in this? Is Darren Aronofsky at this point in his career? I mean, I assume pie was all stolen shots.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Well, we definitely, we stole that drone shot through the Unisphere. That was not a permit acceptable, so that was a stolen shot.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  No, we had permission on the subway this time. This time we actually had control of the train, which I was like, oh, you could do that?

• 13:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  We had like a conductor and the whole thing and safety, so that, it was very fun.

• 13:15Josh Horowitz?

  Is there some nostalgia though, like, you know, you are recapturing literally the same timeframe? Some overlapping locations to a degree with some of your early stuff?

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Well, the funny thing is how Coney Island functions in this film is actually structurally and emotionally character exactly the same as it does in pie. He, in pie, Max wakes up in Coney Island, the last stop.

• 13:38Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  And then goes down to the beach, stares at the water and kind of has a turning point. And it's kind of very similar, which is only, there was a fan site that posted that. And I was like, oh, they're right.

• 13:50Josh Horowitz?

  Discovering stuff about your own movie from the fans. That's how it works. I mean, look, this is, you've talked before about like the influence of folks like Scorsese and Spike.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 14:00Josh Horowitz?

  And like, I feel like this is the kind of film that like, they'll get a kick out of.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  I hope so.

• 14:04Josh Horowitz?

  Have you, yeah, I mean, I assume they are acquaintances by now in your life. So are they?

• 14:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I didn't get to show it to Spike. I mean, Spike's movie comes out this weekend.

• 14:12Josh Horowitz?

  And Matty's a DP on that, right?

• 14:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. The two great New York films. I can't wait to see it. And I, and I just, I wish, freak, I hope I can see it when I get to Europe. I'm dying to see it, so.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Get this. When you're with Xfinity, you're already a member. No sign up, no cost. Score epic experiences from our family at NBC Universal. Plus movie tickets, discounts on streaming, mobile, and more. Check the Xfinity app every Thursday for exclusive perks and experiences only with Xfinity. Now that's the way to start a weekend. Let the magic begin. Restrictions apply. Visit Xfinity.com/membership to learn more.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Film for IMAX.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Make them remember you.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Leaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 15:18Josh Horowitz?

  So elaborate a little bit more on just kind of where you were. Because you were saying, you know, you were kind of like when you made, when you wanted to make this. Because, you know, knowing your career as I do and our past conversations, like you've had some opportunities. You've come close to doing kind of like the quote unquote popcorn movie many times in your career.

• 15:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 15:36Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know, but first like go back for me for a second. So out of pie and requiem, I feel like that's like a, that's a point where you could have probably, I assume the

• 15:42Speaker 03

  That's when Batman showed up.

• 15:44Josh Horowitz?

  Right, that's where Batman, right.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  But I wasn't, I wasn't, I couldn't, I was really focused on The Fountain. I really never took that seriously. Um, so I wanted to make The Fountain. That's where I was at.

• 15:56Josh Horowitz?

  Can you clarify though, cause like, how, like, did you have meetings with Frank Miller? Like, how far did you get?

• 16:01Speaker 03

  We co-wrote a script, uh, but my whole strategy on that one was, I wanted to make this totally wild, crazy film about love and the search for the fountain of youth. And I felt like if I was on Batman, they might let me make it, which is kind of what happened, sort of.

• 16:20Josh Horowitz?

  That's a longer story, yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  But it was also, you know, I, I think, um, the Batman that me and Frank pitched was like a really, uh, or wrote, was a really kind of down and dirty, uh, duct tape type of movie that was never really going to, um, you know, it wasn't going to be selling Batmobiles, you know?

• 16:41Josh Horowitz?

  No merchandising.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  I don't think I was the right guy at the right time. It was rated R.

• 16:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  It was definitely, I think, a whole, a whole world of superhero films had to first come out to

• 16:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  scrape the bottom of that barrel before they would go to rated R films like,

• 16:57Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  like some of the later ones.

• 16:58Josh Horowitz?

  Did you, did you have a actor in mind? I've read somewhere that Joaquin was on

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I mean, but, you know, famously, I pitched Joaquin and they were into Freddie Prince Jr. And so

• 17:09Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was like a different, it was a very different world, um, back then of like, um, aesthetically what, what was going on, I think. Didn't quite.

• 17:20Josh Horowitz?

  So, so you were focused on The Fountain, which was a bit of a journey. Were there other, were you getting like a lot of offers at the time for, I don't know, like, genre films for studio films? I mean, what was coming to you at that time?

• 17:33Speaker 03

  Well, you're going way back, um,

• 17:37Speaker 03

  I'm not sure I was that, uh, that any of it really stuck and none of it was real. I mean, I did, I remember I chased Confessions of a Dangerous Mind.

• 17:46Josh Horowitz?

  Right. That script was such a hot commodity at the time.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  It was amazing. It was amazing. And, um, I got nowhere near it, but it was funny because, um, I had the book, that's why I knew about it, and I lent my copy to my producer, Eric, and he lost it. I was pissed off. And I went to the bookshop on, um, Saint Marks, there's that East, uh, East Village bookshop down this flight of stairs. And, uh, there was a copy of it. And I was like, oh, great. And I looked and the price was a dollar. And there was an inscription. And it said, "To Red, I hope you like it. If not, don't sue me. Chuck." And the book is dedicated to Red, who's a ma- who I think is the Julia Roberts character in it.

• 18:32Josh Horowitz?

  He sounds right.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  So I have the autographed signed copy for a dollar in my house. So I was like, this, I'm supposed to direct this. And I told the story to Alan Horn and it just didn't happen.

• 18:42Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. So then, okay, so then throughout the years, and we don't want to detail all the near misses or whatever, but like you did kind of like dance with a lot of things. Like there was Man of Steel, there's Wolverine, there's Watchmen.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, Watchmen, but then most of them were like a week. I think I was at Watchmen, I brought it into Sherri Lansing and she was excited. And then I think a week later was when she retired.

• 19:01Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  And so then it kind of disappeared and I never really, I forget what film I was working on at the time. I was interested in that one.

• 19:11Josh Horowitz?

  You said you were a fan of Zack's. I remember we talked about that. You liked what Zack did with that film, actually.

• 19:15Speaker 03

  I thought it was a really committed, um, it was really committed to the, faithful to the source material and it was great. And then I watched the animated one that just recently came out, which is fantastic.

• 19:26Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 19:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's great. It's great.

• 19:28Josh Horowitz?

  And then Man of Steel was pretty quick too. That's like a...

• 19:31Speaker 03

  I never got Man of Steel. I think they gave it to Zack.

• 19:33Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 19:34Speaker 03

  I wasn't ever on that. I think I, I think I did just a meeting on it, um, but, um... You know, it was never, it was never mine or anything. I didn't, Superman's really hard.

• 19:45Josh Horowitz?

  As we know, yeah.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  And I thought James did a really great job with it. I thought, um, I mean, it's, it's this crazy difficult box to work in because of like, the, the lore and the legend is so huge, but it was incredibly creative.

• 19:59Josh Horowitz?

  So where, where, where do you find yourself now coming off of something like this? Because now you have kind of made your popcorn movie and it's getting a really nice reception. Are you in the headspace to kind of like, go back all the way in the other directions towards mother, et cetera? Or, or play in the sandbox more?

• 20:15Speaker 03

  I haven't really, I haven't really decided. I, I kind of want, I'm, I, I really think where I'm at right now is that one of the great things that Hollywood does is it takes strangers with all different types of persuasions into a dark room and it puts a hero in front of them and

• 20:43Speaker 03

  takes you on an empathy journey where hopefully if it's a well-made film, you leave your shoes and you're with someone else for two hours. And that connects you to a larger world and tells you an emotional story. And that's, those heroes are the ones that kind of connect us as a culture. And that's kind of, we need that glue right now. And it, and you know, we do it really well with superheroes and, and and characters that, um, that are larger than life, but I think it's great when it's like human heroes. And Hank in Caught Stealing is, is a really, is a pretty good guy.

• 21:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  He's not hurting anyone. He's probably hurting himself quite a bit.

• 21:30Josh Horowitz?

  He's rough on himself.

• 21:31Speaker 03

  But he's, he's, he's not hurting anyone. He's minding his own business and we don't see heroes like that. Guys that keep getting whacked down, but keep getting up, trying to figure out what the hell's going on. And so that's what I hope. I hope like people from everywhere come into this movie and, you know, can forget about their phones for two hours and just connect. So I I kind of like, I I keep going back to like, if Hollywood can do anything right now, it's shut up and dance and do what we do best.

• 21:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  Which is like,

• 21:59Josh Horowitz?

  Just entertain.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Let's entertain people, like, let's bring back the big musicals.

• 22:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Speaker 03

  Not in real life, although that would be fine. But like, just bring people in to have a good time.

• 22:08Josh Horowitz?

  What you say really resonates when I think of like Austin's performance in this. It's really cool to see him do something like this because it does feel like, it's like a back in the day. It's like, what I love about the people like Harrison Ford and Tom Cruise way back when is like they, they they knew the power of like getting hit in the face a lot and and that connected you.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  Harrison Ford's perfect on frantic. He did this, he did the hero completely and he always did.

• 22:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  Sometimes he would play the president.

• 22:31Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  But even though he was the president, he was still a normal guy.

• 22:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  Same thing with The Fugitive.

• 22:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  You don't see them that many, these stories. And Hitchcock did it a ton. After Hours does it.

• 22:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Um, I I just, I just like, you know, all those films from the seventies, they're just great and they're so grounded in the beauty of New York.

• 22:52Josh Horowitz?

  So talk to me a little bit about, this might be the first film of yours that has no protests associated with it. There's gonna be, there's no controversy for caught stealing. Is that a nice?

• 23:00Speaker 03

  I don't know. Some people might come out against Bad Bunny.

• 23:03Josh Horowitz?

  I don't think so. I think you're okay. I mean, that's an odd thing. I mean, look, you you have been a bit of a provocateur over your career.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  It's not on purpose.

• 23:11Josh Horowitz?

  It's not on purpose.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  No, I don't think so. I don't actually, I couldn't believe that there was anything provocative about The Whale. I mean, it was such an exercise in empathy.

• 23:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  And trying to connect with a character that most of us don't have exposure to, you know?

• 23:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  So at least I don't, so.

• 23:28Josh Horowitz?

  What about on something like Mother, which I feel like some people?

• 23:31Speaker 03

  Mother was a total provocation.

• 23:33Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  I was like, running and howling with my two middle fingers up into the fire because I was just like totally pissed off on what was going on right then, but.

• 23:43Josh Horowitz?

  A lot of people just didn't even read it correctly though at first or did like missed the whole thing.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  It's fine. It's fine. It happens all the time. It it could have been probably sold better.

• 23:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 23:52Speaker 03

  Or or more gradually. Um, but it was, uh, I I'm really happy with the film. I love the performances. And it's the film I wanted to make. It's probably the most precise film I've done.

• 24:04Josh Horowitz?

  Sebastian Stan said he had a panic attack during his

• 24:06Speaker 03

  Oh, love it.

• 24:07Josh Horowitz?

  His audition for, no, his audition for Mother. He auditioned for Donald's character, apparently. Do you have any memory of that?

• 24:13Speaker 03

  I didn't know that. I definitely saw it, but I didn't, I actually don't remember that. When did he tell you that?

• 24:19Josh Horowitz?

  He didn't tell me, but he said it in

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Oh, really? Interesting.

• 24:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are there, um,

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Love it.

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  Are there auditions over the years that you've put actors through that really resonated with you, whether they got the role or not, that like, they jumped off of?

• 24:31Speaker 03

  The first thing that passed my head is Jennifer Connelly's read on Requiem was just like, I'll never forget that. She came, she came in and we, I didn't know what I was expecting and, but, but not like, not much, I guess, because I didn't take it that seriously. And she just came in and shredded the room. And it was like, oh, wow, okay. I guess she got the part, you know? So that, that happens. You know, there's also like, now I've been lucky over the years, like, certain actors have come into the room and I'm like, they're not right for the role, but they're a movie star.

• 25:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  I remember Felicity Jones came in, I was like, oh, you're a movie star. There's not, it won't work on this one.

• 25:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:09Speaker 03

  Uh, there's been many of them like that over the years.

• 25:11Josh Horowitz?

  Do you feel like, was there a big learning curve for you in terms of working with actors? Obviously, Pa, you're working with a lot of peers, young, young people. And then you're working with Ellen Burstyn. You're working with like this whole other level of actor. How did you kind of navigate that?

• 25:26Speaker 03

  With terror. You know, I mean, in Kitchen Mitz, I was terrified of Ellen. I was just talking about this because we did the 25th anniversary of the film this year.

• 25:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  And we went to, um, I was taught, remembering this, the first time I hung out with her, I took out to the boardwalk in Cornell. And I had a camera, a point and shoot in my pocket. And I was too afraid to take any pictures of her because it was like, I didn't know what to do. So I didn't, I didn't get any pictures of that moment of our first meeting.

• 25:56Josh Horowitz?

  It's funny though, I saw the quotes also, it's also an anniversary for Black Swan. And I hear Natalie and Mila talking about kind of like how you playfully kind of like pitted them against each other a little bit.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  First of all, that's, you're, you're leading, reading the clickbait of all those things.

• 26:10Josh Horowitz?

  I fell for it.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  It was, it was, I'm so angry about that. I just saw those headlines. We had the most incredible conversation. Getting Natalie and Mila together, all they talk about is like this, because it was like, the guy asked the question about the feud and I said, "Oh yeah, that was a silly thing that got blown out of water where I tried to pick a fight and then they immediately saw through it and I was a total fool." And then the headline just becomes, that redoes it, that I was trying to pick a fight.

• 26:38Josh Horowitz?

  I stand corrected, I apologize.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  The whole thing was like a tongue in cheek, like, "Hey, you know, Mila's doing really great." But like Natalie was like, "Okay, text Mila." And Mila was like, "Shut the fuck up." And that, and the whole time we were laughing about it and then, of course, it became a big story then and now they pick it up. And then, it's just, that's the thing that's driving me crazy about this, is that how quickly things get picked up to be, it's just really, it's just, it's just not, it's just untrue.

• 27:07Josh Horowitz?

  Well, and what the proof's in the pudding of like the performances you've elicited from your character, from your actors, like the Oscar wins, the nominations, it's, they clearly enjoy the experience.

• 27:17Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh, this is about the, yeah, I don't have a problem with that. Actors, we have a great time, you know, that's, that's one thing I'm confident in is like, if, if an actor's ready to work, I'm ready to receive.

• 27:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Is there a, is there an actor that's gotten away that you've wanted to work with for years that keeps coming up in your mind?

• 27:38Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 27:39Josh Horowitz?

  Who comes to mind?

• 27:42Speaker 03

  You know, there's, there's still a lot of great actors. I haven't worked with Meryl Streep, I haven't worked with Leo, I haven't worked with Timothy.

• 27:48Josh Horowitz?

  You and Leo probably have talked about something at some point.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  Oh, we've been talking nonstop. I've known the guy, me and Leo, friends for, I mean, not the beginning of his career, but definitely the beginning of my career.

• 27:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  He was very generous to me. I mean, there's so many, I'd like, I mean, even the comedian, Sandler and Ben Stiller, there's so many great people I'd like to work with still.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  Get this. When you're with Xfinity, you're already a member. No sign up, no cost. Score epic experiences from our family at NBC Universal. Plus movie tickets, discounts on streaming, mobile, and more. Check the Xfinity app every Thursday for exclusive perks and experiences. Only with Xfinity. Now that's the way to start a weekend. Let the magic begin. Restrictions apply. Visit Xfinity.com/membership to learn more.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Make them remember you.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 29:02Josh Horowitz?

  I often ask actors, um, what's the, the worst note they've ever gotten from a director?

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:08Josh Horowitz?

  What's the, what's the last thing you want to hear from an actor? What's, what's, what's a, I don't know, what's, what's like a vibe or something that, that you can't gel with? What don't you want to hear from an actor?

• 29:19Speaker 03

  I mean, I had a really great actor once, say, when I was like, oh, let's try it again. Be like, uh, what else is there to do? And that to me was like, well, hold on. I've been wait, uh, you get to work all the time. It takes me two years to get to set. And then it takes me like whatever hours and hours to get set up for the show to figure it out. And then I get like, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes for the setup. And if I want another five, 10 minutes of like, let's explore it, like I, it's not that I should want to, like, that's the, that's the party.

• 29:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Let's see what the hell is gonna happen. So I, I guess I, I think it was probably an actor who was angry. And would, if I corrected them, um, would be, oh yeah, of course, but it did shut me down at the time. I, because it was a major actor and I was like, oh, okay. Well, I don't know what else to tell them to do. So, you know, we're direct, mean directors are human too, is all I can say.

• 30:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Well, time is so limited. As you know, time is the most valuable commodity on a film set. I mean, Fincher always gets flack for these endless takes, but it's like, I get the method to the madness. It's like, this is forever. This is for all time. Let's get it right.

• 30:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It's also...

• 30:35Speaker 03

  It's not about getting it just right, because it's discovery.

• 30:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  It's discovery. Like, things happen that are exciting, and that's just the fun. Between action and cut is like when we get to create.

• 30:48Josh Horowitz?

  Is there something you can apply to that, to this experience on called stealing that you've found in the moment with Austin and Zoe?

• 30:56Speaker 03

  I mean, they're great. I mean, Austin's just like so willing. Usually you have to kind of convince Austin that you have it.

• 31:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:07Speaker 03

  Because he's always willing to get more. Zoe's also like Zoe now as a director, which is a nightmare probably for some directors, but I love it because she's like, she's like thinking so deeply and so three dimensionally that it's just great to have her.

• 31:22Josh Horowitz?

  She's a filmmaker now, so.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, and a very good filmmaker. Matt Smith is just a wild roller coaster of an actor where like each take is different and original. I mean, Regina King, you know, like, like, solid, like steel.

• 31:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  Just so solid. So this is just great actors on this. And then, you know, you're three fourths of the way through the movie, you're tired, and then suddenly Vincent D'Onofrio and Lee F. Schreiber show up to like bring the film home and you're like, oh, you got this energy. I love the structure of this film because the back half of the film is kind of a second movie.

• 32:01Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  And, and the tone shifts, everything shifts. And so it was, it was great to have them to bring me home.

• 32:08Josh Horowitz?

  I've been a life punk fan of Vincent's and he finally did the podcast a couple of months ago and just to talk acting with this guy.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  He's great.

• 32:14Josh Horowitz?

  And just like he lives and breathes this shit. He's just, it's like all.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  He's great. He's great. He's great. He's still, he's still like a young film student or something. He really gets the energy.

• 32:24Josh Horowitz?

  You, I mean, you must be thankful you kind of came up when you did because you, you came up with this amazing crop of filmmakers in this great time and we're in a really weird time now it feels like for film. And it's like,

• 32:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:37Josh Horowitz?

  You know, the pies and the requiems, I don't know. They come, but they come very rarely.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, we used to get them every year, right?

• 32:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. What do you, what do you make? I mean, are you optimistic about the landscape? You haven't, you've never made a streaming film. I don't know if that's like a line in the sand for you or not.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  No, I mean, it's all about storytelling for me and I would, I would tell stories in many different forms, but. You know, I think, I think, I think there's a battle for storytelling. I think there's, uh, attentions are being pulled away by people swiping up. And, um, you know, we're competing against 10 second clips, viral clips and memes. And, um, that's a battle we probably, um, I, I, we're not, we're, we're, we're losing that battle. Uh, for, because attention's going elsewhere. But I think there's something so important about storytelling because

• 33:34Speaker 03

  every single person in the world can remember seeing a movie where it blew them away and they remember the exact theater, the exact time, the exact place where they were when they walked out and that feeling. And there's no one that's had a two hour session on TikTok that knows where the fuck they were. Except for maybe their couch or their bed, but that, that was memorable in an emotional way. And that's the power of stories.

• 34:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Um, and so there will always be a place for stories, but the question is, you know, how do we keep and hold on to people's attention? How do we get their eyeballs and how do we get them to turn down the second and third screen and just like tune in?

• 34:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  So they can, because when you have a second screen going, you are not surrendering to a character.

• 34:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  So I mean, I really wanted, I mean, that's why I was excited about getting Austin Butler. Cause he is a great tour guide and like he's going through a crazy world in court stealing. But you connect with him because he opens up his heart for you and you wanna like hang out with him. He's like a Paul Newman where you're just like, can't take your eyes off of him. And it's like, okay, this is gonna be who I'm going with. Let's go.

• 34:42Josh Horowitz?

  I know what you're talking about in terms of like, I mean, I want to still be in the world where like, I was looking back at your filmography and looking at the box office grosses. And like, it's like Black Swan made like 300 million or something. I mean, that's like, I don't know if that world exists right now. Like it's, it's, I, you know.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  We'll see. We'll see. We'll see what happens.

• 35:01Josh Horowitz?

  Do you see, you know, you know, humble brag is allowed here. Do you see your influence on, on filmmakers? I mean, I see the Safdees and I see you. I see you in their, in their DNA.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, I love their films. I'm excited to see them. Uh, they definitely do other stuff as well, but great, you know? I mean, they're, they're fellow New York filmmakers. I don't know them very well. I met, I met them once. Um, I think actually I met one of them once. Um, I haven't met both of them. You know, I get to travel the world and I meet a lot of, clearly Requiem has had its influence in Pi. So it's nice to get that feeling where people fell in love with movies because of those movies. Cause I remember that as a kid seeing, you know, there are films I saw as a kid that was just like, oh wow, that's, that's interesting. What is that?

• 35:51Josh Horowitz?

  You must have had that experience when you were starting out with Pi and Requiem where like that generation ahead of you kind of connected with you and said, we respect what you've done. Was there a filmmaker that reached out or that you connected with in those early years that?

• 36:04Speaker 03

  I mean, one of the first meetings I had is Ridley Scott called me in to look at RKO 184.

• 36:13Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  I think we have was in that, right?

• 36:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I remember walking in his office, a huge one sheet of Alien when you walk in. And then I'm sitting there with Ridley and I was like, that was pretty great.

• 36:29Speaker 03

  It was a great moment for me as a young kid.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  But yeah, no, I, you know, I've gotten to meet a lot of the masters. You know, Michael Mann's been really nice and Marty's been really nice. And, you know, my, definitely my youngest hero Spike has been really sweet to me and supportive over the years. And we share the same crew, so it feels almost like we're family.

• 36:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 03

  So, yeah.

• 36:51Josh Horowitz?

  So we talked about the superhero thing before. Is there a sandbox that would be tempting for you to play in at this point?

• 36:58Speaker 03

  I'm always interested and I've always like kind of stuck my head in and seen what I would, what I would do. You know, once again, I do think there's an attraction to like real heroes.

• 37:11Josh Horowitz?

  You want the human, yeah, yeah.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Not just human, it's just like, I think there's something bigger about connecting people to people that don't have the superpowers. Cause like normally in this movie and what kind of the studio was asking me for when they started to read the script a bit, was like, oh, you know, that's when the character fights back. And I'm like, yeah, but that, you know, this guy doesn't know Kung Fu. This guy doesn't know how to load a gun in three seconds and that's interesting. This is a real person who's

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Doesn't know what to do and that is actually if you that's actually true. So I think that's that's a limit to my ability because the only way I know how to direct actors is truthfully and honestly, meaning I don't know how to like um make them suddenly cool and put on a pair of sunglasses.

• 38:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  But I do know how to like make a real person go, oh shit, what the fuck am I gonna do here?

• 38:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, how do I deal with this crazy situation?

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:09Josh Horowitz?

  Do you take a source of pride in, you mentioned Requiem, which has meant lots of filmmakers. It's also meant, I would imagine, like, you know, I don't know how you feel about kind of like films changing people's lives in a substantive way, but like, I would imagine some people have seen Requiem and not done any drug because of that movie.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  We just had a, yeah, I was just doing a screening in Austin and a woman stood up and said, oh, thank you for Requiem, made me sober.

• 38:33Josh Horowitz?

  That's real. That's insane.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, definitely, absolutely. I've had, I've heard, definitely. I mean, Hubert Selby Jr. Was a big sponsor of NA and AA for generations and saved lots of lives. And so I guess his work continues.

• 38:46Josh Horowitz?

  Do you also feel a source of pride? I always say, I think it's Funny Games and Requiem are the two films that are like, shook me to my core.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  The remake or the original?

• 38:55Josh Horowitz?

  Both, both of them. I think the remake's good too, actually.

• 38:57Speaker 03

  Really?

• 38:57Josh Horowitz?

  You don't like it?

• 38:58Speaker 03

  It's so, the, the original is so disturbing and so upsetting.

• 39:02Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, the second, the remake's not a walk in the park, huh?

• 39:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it's hard for me. I think, and I think any remake is, even if it's a straight back frame.

• 39:10Josh Horowitz?

  He did, Hanukkah, he did the remake, as I recall.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know, he did, he did. But it's still, there was, I don't know, my PS was something that the, something with the foreign language that adds to like a certain type of even war.

• 39:22Josh Horowitz?

  But to my question, a source of pride that like Requiem is always the one that I bring up, people bring up as like, that's the most disturbing thing I've ever seen.

• 39:29Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh.

• 39:30Josh Horowitz?

  I mean,

• 39:31Speaker 03

  It was funny, so during, at the 25th anniversary that they just had the Tribeca Film Festival, Ellen came out at 92 years old and she was like, I'm gonna watch. And I was like, I wasn't gonna watch, but I was like, okay, I guess this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to sit there with Ellen after, because Ellen hasn't seen it since the Cannes premiere in 2000, so it's been 25 years. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna watch with her. And like throughout the movie, she's like slapping me going, shame on you! But yeah, I was like, "You did it too! You did it too!"

• 40:05Josh Horowitz?

  What was it like when the lights came up at the Cannes premiere of Requiem for a Dream?

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't really talk about that moment because it was a very special moment.

• 40:11Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I can't even imagine.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. There is a videotape and my producer who took it has lost it. And he promised that he would get it to me and anyway, it's lost right now.

• 40:22Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we're running low on time, but let me just ask, I mean, you've had some passion projects over the years that took a long time to get to fruition, whether it's Noah, et cetera. Are there any that are still around?

• 40:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're working on it. I've been working on this project called Human Nature for 25. It's not the Human Nature I came out for.

• 40:39Josh Horowitz?

  I remember, yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  I think I read the script during Requiem. There's gonna be a graphic novel of it coming out, starting to come out this year. It's like a 500-page comic, so it's a real opus.

• 40:49Josh Horowitz?

  What's the nature of the story, can you say something?

• 40:51Speaker 03

  It's a sci-fi kind of spoof.

• 40:54Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  It's fun.

• 40:55Josh Horowitz?

  You're in your fun years. You're entering your fun years, Darren.

• 40:58Speaker 03

  Well, there's a darkness. There's always darkness. You know, look, man, I think it's like, you know, the dystopian thrust that Hollywood has gotten lost in.

• 41:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, we went to one extreme. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  I mean, it was great, but it's time for this protopian search.

• 41:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  Like, we need to dream a better future.

• 41:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 03

  And lead that way and dream towards positivity and bring good characters towards that. And that's definitely what I'm sort of leaning into now.

• 41:30Josh Horowitz?

  The guy that made Requiem and Black Swan and these haunting...

• 41:33Speaker 03

  But there's a positivity in those films.

• 41:36Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  There is. By showing, and this all comes from Selby in Requiem for a Dream. It was all about you reveal the light by showing the darkness.

• 41:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Last thing, do you think of kind of like the box set of your career? You've got a lot of years... No. You're not the Tarantino where you think of like what the 10 or 20 films are gonna look like.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  No, God bless them. I think it's, you know, I don't, who buys box sets anymore?

• 42:02Josh Horowitz?

  That's fair.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  I mean, the rights are all over the freaking place. And I kind of, you know, definitely when I was younger, you know, those were my heroes, the people that did that. But I think it's just now, just consistently bringing my best game.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  With my best collaborators game to the projects that we want to make that are in front of us, that are exciting, that challenge us. I mean, that's for me, like, how to keep my brain sharp, it's definitely by doing something different.

• 42:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. This one, as I said, a little bit of a different gear, but it's still pure, Darren.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Well, thank you.

• 42:42Josh Horowitz?

  I appreciated it. I love it. I appreciate your time always, buddy. Let's not make it another 11 years before the podcast, for sure.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  Absolutely. No doubt. I'll see you next time around.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Get this. When you're with Xfinity, you're already a member. No sign up, no cost. Score epic experiences from our family at NBC Universal. Plus movie tickets, discounts on streaming, mobile, and more. Check the Xfinity app every Thursday for exclusive perks and experiences only with Xfinity. Now that's the way to start a weekend. Let the magic begin. Restrictions apply. Visit Xfinity.com/membership to learn more.