THE MATRIX reunion with Laurence Fishburne & Joe Pantoliano

Are you ready to enter THE MATRIX?! We've got Laurence Fishburne (Morpheus) and Joe Pantoliano (Cypher) on this episode reminiscing about the film that blew our minds and changed how movies are made forever! UPCOMING EVENTS Brendan Fraser 11/18 in NYC -- ⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Whether it's hot yoga, over 100 degree weather, or too much sun. Gator Light, with a specialized blend of five electrolytes, was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration. Shop now at retailers nationwide. Gator Light: Hydrates Faster Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  What do fans bring up when they see you and they want to talk about The Matrix? Do you get a quote? Do you get a conversation? You must have had innumerable fan encounters over the years. Do any stick out for you?

• 1:13Speaker 03

  I always get red pill or blue pill. People think that's... They think they're saying hello to me when they say that. I realize that's what that means from them. And I'm kind of like, "Well, it's always a purple pill day, isn't it?"

• 1:32Speaker 04

  There it is. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:41Josh Horowitz?

  Are you guys ready to enter The Matrix? Oh yeah. Here we go, guys. Laurence Fishburne, Joe Pantoliano, on a very special Happy Sad Confused recorded at New York Comic Con. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. A really cool one today. If you're a nerd like me, if you're somewhat in my age range, or truly any generation, we've all come to know and love and appreciate The Matrix. This one is for you. This is another episode. So we did live on stage at New York Comic Con in front of three or 4,000 people. Laurence Fishburne, Morpheus himself, Joe Pantoliano, Joey Pants, Cypher himself,

• 2:22Josh Horowitz?

  came together to talk about The Matrix. What a treat. What a treat to be able to talk about a movie, a series that means so much to me and so many other people. What a great conversation. I'm so excited to share this with you guys. I'll remind you before we get into the main event, as always, patreon.com/happy say confused. That's where you get the early access, the bonus content, the merch, the upcoming events. Patreon.com. If you like what I do, check it out. Lots of different tier levels for any price point. Support us over there so we can make more stuff over here. Okay, not much more preamble. What more can I say about these legends?

• 3:06Josh Horowitz?

  Fishburne, by the way, is just the real deal. Never done the podcast. We need to get him solo one of these days because what a career, but to deep dive with him about this kind of stuff is really special because he lives and breathes it. As you'll hear in the conversation, he grew up loving Star Trek and Star Wars and comics and all of it. And to see the space he now occupies in that, in that world, in these worlds. So cool. And Joey Pants, Pantoliano, one of like, one of the great New York character actor. I mean, such a character, such a treat to talk to both of them. And the audience ate this up. I ate this up and you're about to eat this up. Enjoy this live event taped in New York Comic Con.

• 3:51Josh Horowitz?

  Joe Pantoliano and Laurence Fishburne talking The Matrix. Enjoy. Hey, Comic Con, are you ready for one more panel at the Empire stage, guys? Come on.

• 4:07Josh Horowitz?

  We are finishing very strong. My name's Josh Horowitz. I host a podcast called Happy Sad Confused. As I said, we're ending with a bang, guys. I'm so damn excited for this one. Are you ready to re-enter The Matrix with me?

• 4:22Josh Horowitz?

  Come on. Uh, if you're like me, there was before you saw The Matrix, and then there was after you saw The Matrix. It blew all of our brains out. It was amazing. The Wachowskis and this amazing ensemble, and we have two absolute legends. Their resumes are historic, and what they contributed in The Matrix, unbelievable. I'm not gonna waste any time, cuz you wanna hear them speak. You wanna see them on this stage. Please, give a warm New York Comic Con welcome to Lawrence Bischburn, everybody, and Joe Pantoliano.

• 5:12Speaker 03

  New York City, what's happening?

• 5:18Speaker 03

  Good to be home.

• 5:22Josh Horowitz?

  Guys, you feel the love? This is a, this is a nice thing. Twenty-five plus years later, they're still committed to the cause. That's kinda crazy, isn't it?

• 5:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's kinda sick.

• 5:30Speaker 05

  Look at the Matrix stuff here.

• 5:32Josh Horowitz?

  I know.

• 5:33Speaker 05

  You did it for us?

• 5:34Josh Horowitz?

  Just for you.

• 5:35Speaker 05

  Ah, wow.

• 5:38Josh Horowitz?

  Guys, um, what's the Comic Con experience for you guys? Have you guys been to things like this before? Or are we kind of like exposing you to it?

• 5:46Speaker 05

  Never, this size, this is a, this is extraordinary, uh, size and venue. And, and also, I'm from Hoboken, so I can see my house from here.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  It's only my second con.

• 6:00Josh Horowitz?

  Make him feel welcome, guys. Only a second time. Lawrence Bischburn, legend.

• 6:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, you want him to come back.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  It's really nice, thank you. It's really beautiful.

• 6:10Josh Horowitz?

  Before we get into The Matrix, I, I'd love to just talk a little bit about, like, your influences in the Comic Con space. I know a little bit of your background, Lawrence. You've talked about this. You grew up with this stuff. Like, you were, you were in it. Give me a sense of what you were into as a kid.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  I was into, um... Marvel Comics and DC Comics and Dark Horse Comics. I was um into science fiction and you know Star Trek, Star Wars, A Boy With His Dog, I mean you know Doctor Who, Space 1999, like yeah.

• 6:40Josh Horowitz?

  The real stuff, yeah. And your resume, it must boggle the kid in you to look at your resume from you know Perry White, Ant-Man, the John Wick films, The Witcher coming soon, I mean it goes on and on man.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Mostly, I mean here, what's been great is like all the stuff that people have brought that shit I haven't seen before.

• 7:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  It's just been like so exciting. Like one guy brought like a Superman poster, a Man of Steel poster I've never seen before that was just like pristine. I was like, see, if I wasn't doing what I was doing, I'd be like

• 7:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  laying for him in a dark alley somewhere. So I could steal it, you know?

• 7:23Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a collection of your own, whether from your own stuff or?

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have a, I have a collection of comics. I still have my comics from the seventies. I have, you know, action figures. I have a lot of stuff. The sideshow guys have been really nice to me, like they sent me some really cool stuff. So I have a nice collection in LA.

• 7:41Josh Horowitz?

  Probably a few action figures of yourself that you've got, probably of some?

• 7:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have some of myself, but mostly my favorites are like Silver Surfer and like The Flash and you know, stuff like that. I have a great big Galactus too, he's about like that big.

• 7:56Josh Horowitz?

  Little guy.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, little guy.

• 7:57Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, Joe, for you. This part of your world growing up, I mean you found yourself into a bunch of these things too, obviously.

• 8:03Speaker 05

  I come for the money.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  But I, I

• 8:07Josh Horowitz?

  Spoken like a true actor, yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 05

  No idea of comic books, uh, it was I didn't learn how to read until I was nineteen, so I liked the pictures.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  Pictures are good, that was the thing. You didn't have to learn, you didn't have to know how to read to follow along, you know.

• 8:22Josh Horowitz?

  It's great that way. What, okay, so 25 plus years later, is The Matrix like a daily part of your lives? How often do you get fans wanting to talk to you about The Matrix? The quotes, seeing it in pop culture? Does it feel like part of your daily, or at least weekly, life to this day, to some degree?

• 8:40Speaker 03

  It certainly changed our lives.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  And, I mean, yeah, it's every day, anytime, you know. Most people, you know, for me, anyway, it's like, I think that Morpheus is probably the character I'll be best remembered for, so.

• 9:01Josh Horowitz?

  For you, Joe, does it feel like, I mean, was it, did it change the course of your career? I mean, you obviously were working a lot prior, you've worked a lot since, but is that a demarcation point in some ways?

• 9:11Speaker 05

  Sure, I mean, you know, it was the first time I'd ever been on a poster. You know, I'm a journeyman character actor, and to be on this poster, on this most important movie that was, when we were making it, I knew that it was different and had an opportunity, but it was well, and I don't mean this modestly, it was just way beyond my, my ability to grasp what they were trying to say, and seeing the storybooks and all of that. And we shot, we shot all the Matrix stuff first, so never had the benefit of seeing the Nebuchadnezzar until we started shooting on the Nebuchadnezzar.

• 9:57Speaker 05

  And I'm like, oh my god. It was, it was, it was just, and also, we had so much fun, living in Australia for six, six months.

• 10:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it does feel like... That Warner Brothers kind of like let the Wachowskis play and didn't pay attention and just let them let their freak flag fly and go crazy.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was weird because it was like being on the most it was like the most expensive independent movie ever made. They gave us fifty million dollars, they sent us to the other side of the world and they didn't bother us at all. They let them just do what they were gonna do.

• 10:32Josh Horowitz?

  So, let's back up a second because I'm curious like the origins of The Matrix, at least where you guys come into play. Joe, you'd worked with them on Bound, so you knew you knew their talent, which if you haven't seen a great, an amazing first film that really demonstrates what they can do with a camera and how how just.

• 10:49Speaker 05

  Well, it was an audition piece, you know, they they made that they made that movie so they could show the studio that they had the capacity because they hired the DP and the editor, this was that was the team, if you say yes. So it really was their audition to be able to get them to let them direct the movie.

• 11:09Josh Horowitz?

  So you've worked with first time filmmakers, you've worked with veterans. Did it strike you even on that set like, oh, these folks, they've got the chops, they've got ambition, they know what they're doing?

• 11:18Speaker 05

  They knew what they wanted. I mean, in terms of communication, what I loved about them is that back then is they were kind of like karaoke performers. They they they they just demonstrated, you know, like larger than life characters with the sound effects and and then you do this and you do that. And I and I thought that was very charming and cute and, you know, an indication that they knew what the fuck they wanted. But I, you know, it was also for me to work with Fishburne, who I'd gotten to know a little bit, and Keanu and and Carrie Anne, and then all of these wonderful Australian and New

• 12:02Speaker 05

  Zealand actors was I was totally a fish out of out of the water there, but it was happening fast and they would break in a lot of things and it was cool.

• 12:14Josh Horowitz?

  So for casting you, Lawrence, I mean, there's a lot of lore about like the different casting permutations, you know, Will Smith turned it down, there was talk of like Val Kilmer, there's a long list of people they thought of or not. Were you aware, like, what was your interaction with them? Did it come as a script? Did you have to audition? How did you enter the Matrix?

• 12:33Speaker 03

  I read the script, my agents were tracking it. Uh, I read the script and I immediately knew it was the most original thing that I had ever read and that I wanted to be a part of it. And then I met them in Vegas.

• 12:47Speaker 05

  I, I-

• 12:48Speaker 03

  You were there, you were there.

• 12:49Speaker 05

  I set it up, yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. So Joe set this thing up. We were at one of the fights, right?

• 12:53Speaker 05

  It was the one when- It was the one when Tyson bit off-

• 12:56Speaker 03

  It was the bite, yeah, the bite fight.

• 13:00Speaker 03

  Met, uh, the Wachowskis, uh, Lana, who was then Larry, said, "Oh, when I was writing this, I heard your voice in my head and da-da-da-da-da." And then, uh, I went, uh, met with them again. And I said, "What do you guys want to do?" They said, "We want to make a Japanese anime live." And I was like, "Oh, yeah! Put me down!"

• 13:26Josh Horowitz?

  You're speaking my language, yeah.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  I think I scared the shit out of them. I think they weren't, they weren't ready. And then, um, you know, we went, we went to work. We went to Australia, we trained, you know, the whole thing.

• 13:38Josh Horowitz?

  We're not going to gloss over that. We're going to talk about that a little bit more. But for you, Joe, like, obviously, again, you'd worked with them before. Had they on set abound, like, mentioned, "Oh, we're cooking up this thing, maybe we're thinking of you," or like, how did it manifest that you entered this one?

• 13:54Speaker 05

  They, they, they mentioned that they were, you know, there was, um, they were hoping to be able to direct this movie. They'd had bad luck with, with screenplays that they had sold and then it was given off. You know, that's kind of like happens for a lot of filmmakers. They get their voice, they decide that they've got it directed.

• 14:16Speaker 05

  And they did mention that there was a part in, in this thing, if they get to direct it, that they would like me to do.

• 14:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I'll never forget, on a personal note, I was doing my college radio show and "Bound" came out and I had the Wachowskis on, and I'll never forget asking them, "What's next?" And I have this tape, and they're like, "Well, we've written the script for Plastic Man, and we're also trying to do the sci-fi thing. We'll see if it comes together." Flash forward, "The Matrix," unbelievable.

• 14:44Speaker 05

  I gotta say, it's a very short story. Carrie Anne has a dinner. They're all doing their wire work, and they're working, and Hugo, and Keanu, and Lawrence, and Carrie Anne had a little house in LA, and she made a dinner, and I'm there, and the Wachowskis are there, and they told, they had told me that the studio wanted to cut the steak scene, and that Keanu, it was Keanu's favorite scene, and he was really fighting for the steak scene. And I said, you know, offhandedly, you know, the guy's in the whole fucking movie, what's he worried about one little scene? Right? So then, I knew this story, so I go to Keanu, that we're all eating, you know, sitting on couches and eating plates, I don't know if you remember this, and I said to Keanu, "You know, we're gonna be

• 15:29Speaker 05

  great in the steak scene, I'm so glad it's back in the movie," and you could hear a pin drop, right? And Hugo goes, "I'm in that scene, mate."

• 15:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 15:40Speaker 05

  And the Wachowskis fall down on the floor, they're crying laughing, right? And everybody's looking at me like I got two heads, and they're going, "He hasn't read the script!" Do you remember that?

• 15:53Speaker 03

  They never let me in on the jokes, Joe, you remember.

• 15:58Josh Horowitz?

  So what did you guys, what did you make of Morpheus? I mean, the stature of this character, I mean, he is, you know, it's a challenging character in a thousand different ways, like, it's a lot of exposition, you kinda have to get out there, you're kind of like this mentor figure. Did you have a bead on who he was, on how to approach him, right from the start?

• 16:18Speaker 03

  So, for me, Morpheus is, you know, just like, story-wise, he's the dark mentor and the light mentor combined, 'cause usually, you know, like, Star Wars, right? So Vader's the dark mentor, Obi-Wan is the light mentor. What's great about Morpheus for me is he's both. And it was just a matter of like, understanding that, you know, he's the dark mentor as Morpheus in the, in the Matrix, but in the real world, he's the light mentor. So for me, it was just like, I took a little bit of Rod Serling,

• 17:02Speaker 03

  I took a little bit of Leonard Nimoy, I took a little bit of James Earl Jones, and my, my, my mentor, my real mentor, Roscoe Lee Brown, had kinda wrapped it all up in there and came up with a sound that I thought was, you know, right for him.

• 17:21Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, it's all there right from the start. It's like the specificity, the very, the cadence, the walk. You had a plan. You knew what you were doing.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  I knew what I was doing, but it's really intuitive. I'm not somebody who like, spends a lot of time doing research or any of that stuff. It's just, the script was so unique and I understood the concept of one world and the other world. And I understood anime as a fan.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  I love science fiction, so I just went with my gut. The writing is gorgeous. You know, that whole speech, when he goes, "You can feel it when you go to church, when you pay your taxes." I mean, that shit is gorgeous, right? So, it was, and the other thing, the other thing about that scene is my silent partner in that scene, Keanu, is beautiful in that fucking scene. As I'm like, the first time I saw it, in 99, when it came out, I forgot about all the metaphysical and spiritual and religious and all the symbolism and stuff that's in it. And, cause we worked so hard, training, you know,

• 18:35Speaker 03

  um, all I could remember was how sore I was from the action we did. So when that scene happened, I was like, and he offers him the pill. My internal dialogue was, "Don't trust him! Don't fucking take that pill!"

• 18:56Josh Horowitz?

  It's a different movie.

• 19:00Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I'm offering these pills, you really shouldn't take either one of them.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Don't do it, don't do it, man!

• 19:05Josh Horowitz?

  Bad idea. What did both of you guys like make of Keanu? Like, right from the start? I mean, he's such a singular performer. There's nobody like Keanu Reeves.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  No, that's the thing. There's nobody like Keanu Reeves.

• 19:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Keanu Reeves is like a shooting star. That appears in the sky once, and it burns really, really, really, really brightly, and we all just get to watch.

• 19:36Josh Horowitz?

  So, you were alluding to this earlier, Joe, like stepping onto the sets. Again, that probably gives you a sense of like, okay, now I kinda get it. Now I'm in this other world. How much did the sets, the costumes, the accoutrements kinda like get you in the zone to play Cypher?

• 19:59Speaker 05

  It was everything. But it was just a sinking feeling when I walked onto that set. It was like, oh my god, what did I do over in The Matrix? If I could have only seen this place first.

• 20:12Josh Horowitz?

  I see, yeah, yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 05

  It would have, you know, made major adjustments.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  But, yeah, I'm always, you know, I'm an external actor. I work from the shoes up.

• 20:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 20:25Speaker 05

  And that kinda defines the internal workings. And I'm always trying to look at the connection of me inside the character. And, uh, um, and the idea that... I remember like making a note that everyone in the Nebuchadnezzar had a clear, extraordinary commitment to Morpheus's...

• 20:59Speaker 05

  Journey and there was no doubt and I chose that I was full of doubt and rage and bitterness. You know, because I chose to be in love with Trinity. That's never written, it's never talked about. And to make a deal with the devil and betray the people I love and then never have any memory. I'm always arguing with my fans about this, who wouldn't take that deal? Also, the thing with the Wachowskis, when this moron Cypher decides, he says, "I want to be somebody important like an actor."

• 21:42Speaker 03

  So good.

• 21:43Speaker 05

  What a loser.

• 21:46Josh Horowitz?

  Again, you're talking about a screen partner, you know, having Keanu in that, having Hugo, the contrast, again, this measured, very specific delivery, which, again, such a choice and pays off, but like, you know, you're actors, you know, when you're out on a limb. He was going for it, he was doing a thing. What did you make of it? Do you have any recollection of like seeing Hugo do that cadence, the way he was speaking and what you made of it at the time?

• 22:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, because he's nothing like that, you know, and so I got to know Hugo as Hugo, you know, during all the rehearsals and hanging out. And we've shot in Sydney, in his hometown, and then this guy shows up. Same thing with Lawrence, you know, it's like Lawrence's characterization is so specific and regal and, you know, I was just putting on a leather jacket and talking like Joey Pants.

• 22:44Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know about that. Well, let's talk about the leather jacket and the looks for both of you. Did you have any say like on like was the goatee like your choice, the facial hair? Or did the Wachowskis have very specific, I would imagine they had specific ideas on wardrobe, but like was there any exchange on either of your looks in the film?

• 23:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, you know, Kim Barrett did an incredible job. I mean, all the silhouettes she had, you know, they had designed. And they're gorgeous. I, I, uh, I was looking at the storyboards that they had for us and in the storyboards, Morpheus's mask, I call it, the glasses were on and they, the guy was making them and he handed me the glasses and they had stems on them. And I went, "Those aren't the glasses." And he was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "Look at the storyboard. There's no stems on those, on those glasses." And he's like, "Oh, how are we gonna keep them on your face?" I was like, "It's not my problem, son."

• 23:47Josh Horowitz?

  Not my department, sorry.

• 23:51Speaker 03

  That's why they, that's why they look like that.

• 23:53Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have any of the glasses? Do you have any of the work?

• 23:56Speaker 03

  I have one pair of the original glasses.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  And I gave one pair away to a young boy who was suffering with cancer, who was about 11 years old or something, way back then, you know? And he wanted to meet me. It was a make-a-wish thing. I gave him those glasses.

• 24:20Josh Horowitz?

  And for you, Joe, any recollection of arriving at Cypher's look, wardrobe, facial hair? Was there a give and take or?

• 24:29Speaker 05

  They, they, uh, they really wanted this, uh, thing here.

• 24:34Josh Horowitz?

  Soul patch kind of thing?

• 24:36Speaker 05

  But I forgot and I shaved it off and when I showed up.

• 24:41Speaker 05

  They said, "Where's your, where's..." So we, we started out with a piece, you know, and then we let it grow out. The, the boots, I, I, uh, I was over at their office and I had these cowboy boots that, that were made at, um, somewhere in, in Brentwood and they said, "Oh, those boots." So they, you know, they used my, my boots and, um, but the glasses, it was very important to Kim with, with everyone's.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, with every character.

• 25:11Speaker 05

  Very important to her. She, she worked from there and then worked her way down.

• 25:15Josh Horowitz?

  Was there any talk loosely on that film, again, you're kind of like fifty million dollar production out in the middle of nowhere, Wachowskis had no real resume to speak of. Was there talk of like, oh, this could be a franchise, there, we have other ideas for stories?

• 25:29Speaker 03

  I think they shared a lot of that with Keanu and Hugo. I wasn't aware of it until we were done with the first movie.

• 25:34Josh Horowitz?

  And for, in the script, so let's, so Cypher's end, definitive in the script? What do you remember?

• 25:41Speaker 05

  They lied to me. They fucking lied, you know?

• 25:44Josh Horowitz?

  Let's get to the good stuff.

• 25:45Speaker 05

  I made the mistake of telling him the fugitive story when I, I convinced Andy Davis not to kill me.

• 25:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:53Speaker 05

  And, and then, you know, and Harrison was saying, you know, it's great, but if you get killed, you know, they'll feel sorry for you. And I said, what if there's a sequel? And Harrison smiled, he says, it's not gonna be a sequel, because I won't do this piece of shit again. And I said, famously, well, fuck you, we'll just chase some other twenty million dollar asshole through the woods. And, and, and then Harrison, you know, came out, he said, you're doing it, you're doing it. So I told that to the Wachowskis. So, so then I, I was talking to Lily on the phone, and I said, hey, you can't kill me, right? You're not gonna kill me? And, and Lily said, hey Lana, you know, he doesn't want us to kill him.

• 26:38Speaker 05

  And, and I heard Lana off camera, like, knowing that I could hear this, and she said, well, just lie to him and we'll kill him later.

• 26:47Josh Horowitz?

  But, on screen, it's not a hundred percent definitive, is it? I mean, if you really look at it.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  Don't get me started, all right? They brought fucking Agent Smith back, they, you know, it's a Matrix. Reinsert his body. Yes.

• 27:08Josh Horowitz?

  It's not too late.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  It's not too late, it's never too late.

• 27:11Speaker 03

  Never too late.

• 27:12Josh Horowitz?

  Where's Cypher today? How's Cypher doing? What do you think? Living his best life? On the mend?

• 27:17Speaker 05

  No, what? What? He's an actor with an Oscar.

• 27:22Josh Horowitz?

  He's an actor with an Oscar, they say.

• 27:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, you, you should have played Cypher.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 28:07Speaker 06

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 28:39Josh Horowitz?

  You mentioned the training, Lawrence. I mean, the epic fights, the epic Kung-Fu sequence like with Keanu. I know a lot of work, needless to say, went into that. Give me a little sense of what it was like to shoot that, what went into it? And I'm also curious about like the now iconic, you know, beckoning move. That's in the script? That's in the choreography from the start or what? No?

• 29:03Speaker 03

  So the training was a lot. It was long and hard and we worked in a warehouse in the valley somewhere. And we had a mattress and we had some bars, like the bars over there. And we would stretch in the morning for two hours and then we would do choreography for two hours and then we'd have lunch and then we'd go and do weight training and we trained like athletes. And the Hong Kong stunt team, Master Wu Ping and his guys, they trained us harder, they made us work harder in training than we would ever have to do when we were on camera, which is why it works and looks so good. And this...

• 29:52Speaker 03

  It's kind of two things that I put in the fight. And Keanu put something in the fight where we both stole from the same actor. So, this is my version of Bruce, this is Bruce Lee. And Keanu does this, and that's his version of Bruce Lee. And then I did my version of Ali shuffle in the dojo fight as well.

• 30:19Josh Horowitz?

  Well, not only that, they, yes, come on. Film history. But they obviously then incorporated the callback at the end.

• 30:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, with Hugo and Keanu, yeah, yeah.

• 30:29Josh Horowitz?

  So you-

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Their fight, yeah.

• 30:30Josh Horowitz?

  You did more than your share, man. You should get a bonus for that one.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Ah, it's, you know, it's all in the collaboration. It's just, you know, it's the shit that you, you do because you wanna have people have the same kind of feeling that those movies that you watched gave you, you know.

• 30:53Josh Horowitz?

  Do either of you remember the first time you saw the film? Was it pre-premiere, was it at the premiere?

• 30:59Speaker 05

  We all saw it, we, we saw it together. They, at the Lantana in Santa Monica. I think we got to see it the night before they were gonna show it to the studio, is that right?

• 31:09Speaker 03

  I don't, I can't remember, man. I, I remember seeing it in New York because I was doing a play. I was doing Lion and Winter here, and I couldn't be at the premiere. And I saw it here. I went to see it with an audience here in, like, Times Square. And it, and I was, you know, with the hat down and shit and just hiding out, because nobody knew what it was. You know, Lorenzo de Bonaventura, the story is, he showed the script to, I guess, the green light men at Warner Brothers. And they were like, "We don't understand it." And he was like, "Nobody under thirty understands it, it's okay."

• 31:48Josh Horowitz?

  Do you remember, like, I mean, again, you read the script, you're on the set, but it's a whole nother thing what this is all put together, Joe. I mean, like, do you, it must have been just a real treat. That's the goal of an actor, that's the dream of an actor, to see everything plussed up to the nth degree. You must have been so relieved and satisfied when you saw it.

• 32:09Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I have really bad taste, so, so I, when I saw it, I thought, this is, you know, this is what they were talking about. This is wonderful. But, you know, mentioning Lorenzo and all of these young executives that really put their asses on the line. If this movie, you know, a lot of great movies that don't open. If this movie opens and people don't show up, there's all of those careers that go and bye-bye, you know. And so, it really needed to have a happy ending. It needed to open. And, you know, and so when it did, I was incredibly relieved for all of these pioneers, I mean,

• 32:50Speaker 05

  executives like, like that. Nobody's doing that anymore. Everybody's so frightened, they want to go with the safe and the easy and the, you know. So that was a big gamble, even with the heads of the studio at that time, you know. And, and the fact that they shot it in Australia really creatively kept those voices at bay.

• 33:18Josh Horowitz?

  No, I mean, it's so true. We don't get new matrices, as it were, original stories, unless someone takes a bit of a gamble. And Hollywood has gotten so, so safe. And it's scary to think about, like, you know, going forward, where's the next Wachowskis unless someone takes a shot. And it happens. It just happens less than ever.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Generally, like, once every 25 years.

• 33:44Josh Horowitz?

  So, I alluded to, you know, the fandom at the start. What do fans bring up when they see you and they want to talk about The Matrix? Do you get a quote? Do you get a conversation? You must have had innumerable fan encounters over the years. Do any stick out for you?

• 34:01Speaker 03

  I always get red pill or blue pill. Like, that's, people think that's, they think they're saying hello to me when they say that. I realize that's what that means from them. And I'm kind of like, well, it's always a purple pill day, isn't it?

• 34:21Josh Horowitz?

  There it is.

• 34:27Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, Joey, you have one of those resumes that they could bring up a thousand different things, but can you tell a Matrix fan coming from down the road?

• 34:36Speaker 05

  This weekend, I've gotten maybe a half a dozen friends that have come up and admitted that they would have taken the blue pill. You know, "Yeah, you were right, you were right, you were right."

• 34:55Josh Horowitz?

  Have you guys seen, you must have seen fan art over the years too of your characters?

• 34:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's some really amazing-

• 35:00Josh Horowitz?

  Tattoos, the whole thing?

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Amazing fan art, man, it's been amazing. I mean, that was, remember the tattoo that we saw? That someone has?

• 35:08Josh Horowitz?

  You guys saw a tattoo the other day, you're saying?

• 35:09Speaker 03

  It was not, no, it was back then, after we, I think it was after we did the first movie. But someone showed us a photograph of someone who had me and Carrie Anne and Keanu tattooed on themselves, which was like, really kind of mind blowing for me, you know? As somebody who doesn't have ink, I was like, wow, that's okay, you know?

• 35:31Josh Horowitz?

  Is there an actor or character that if you had to tattoo on your body, you would do? I'm forcing you at gunpoint, Joey Lawrence, you have to get this tattoo. Who would it be?

• 35:41Speaker 03

  You have to shoot me.

• 35:47Speaker 05

  No, I just have my kids on my arm. But there is an old girlfriend that I covered up with a leaf.

• 36:01Josh Horowitz?

  I hope she had a short name.

• 36:03Speaker 05

  Fortunately. There's a guy, the Goonies. There's a Goony guy that his entire body, and he came, he comes to the conventions. And so he had me, he had my character here. And then he had me sign it with a Sharpie. And then he tattoos it. So he has everybody's signature as well. Yeah.

• 36:30Josh Horowitz?

  Wow. Again, commitment.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  Loaf. That's Loaf.

• 36:37Josh Horowitz?

  Of course, Matrix spawned a bunch of sequels. Obviously Reloaded Revolutions, Lawrence, you were a part of them. Talked to me a little bit about, I don't know, your perspective on those two. Those are ginormous undertakings we could spend hours on in of itself.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  You know, again, we went back to Australia, you know, and we knew that we had to sort of match what we had done. And there's, you know, there's some great stuff in both of those movies. I like Revolutions of those two. There's something about Revolutions, I can't put my finger on what it is, but I think it's when Keanu was blind. And I think that whole thing, going to the city of the machines and all that, I thought was kind of fascinating. But nobody had done it like that before.

• 37:35Speaker 03

  We were the first ones to work with, we were the first Western actors to work in the Hong Kong style of action with the first movie. And then, you know, they created Bullet Time. They came up with Bullet Time. And they were the people that really pushed the digital component with John Gata and his visual effects team to create Zion, to create the Sentinels.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  So, you know, we knew we were involved in something that was groundbreaking and it was evident that it had changed movie making right away because there's no movie that comes after The Matrix that's a sci-fi, action, or fantasy movie that's not been influenced by it.

• 38:26Josh Horowitz?

  It's everywhere. It's so pervasive, you almost forget where it came from at this point.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, now people don't realize, but no Matrix, no MCU. Like, doesn't look the same.

• 38:37Josh Horowitz?

  In what way do you see, when you're watching MCU films, do you see The Matrix?

• 38:43Speaker 03

  It's in terms of the quality of the action, the time that they spend to train, to get the actors in shape, the commitment that they have, the graphics that they're able to put on the screen, the things that they're able to create on screen using both practical things and digital art, doesn't exist without The Matrix. The Matrix is the blueprint for all of that.

• 39:10Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a favorite? You have some great speeches in the sequels. In the second one, there's some epic speeches you get to make. Do you have a favorite?

• 39:21Speaker 03

  I like the one that ends with, "Isn't that worth living for? Isn't that worth dying for?"

• 39:29Josh Horowitz?

  Lawrence, you know, I printed it out for you if you want to give it a go right now. I have it right here. I have it. I have it. Do you want to look at it?

• 39:36Speaker 03

  If you want to play it, you can play it.

• 39:38Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah, I'm not gonna make him do it. He's too... He needs time to prep. He needs time to prep.

• 39:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I can't just, you know...

• 39:43Josh Horowitz?

  He's not a cold reader.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  It's not like saying, "You think that's air you're breathing now?" It's not as easy as that.

• 39:49Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough. Fair enough. I want to be friends in the future. It's okay.

• 39:54Speaker 05

  The thing about... What they did, it was a ballet, it was a continuous. There wasn't a lot of cuts, it wasn't a fast, it was like, it was all in one, um, most of the time, because the actors, this is the first time where the actors were actually doing the Kung-Fu. And, uh, and then, as a result of its success, everybody copied it, uh, but poorly and badly, and with, you know, multi-cuts and, uh, you know, tight shots, and if you look at The Matrix, it really is a symphony compared to what we see today.

• 40:34Josh Horowitz?

  Well, yeah, I mean, the sheer amount of time that went into all these facets, the training you guys did, it's like, there's no shortcut to that, it's not the same.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  No, there isn't. So, we did the dojo fight. We trained for six months before we got to Australia. We got to Australia, we continued practicing the fight for at least four months before we shot it. And then we shot it over like, three days. And we had never done it full out, like, we had always marked it, we had never really used all of our physical energy to do it. So, we shot it, I think it was on a Friday, the first time we took a shot at it, and by the end of however many takes that we did, both Keanu and I were black and blue, we were bruised on our forearms, because we had never made contact like that before.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  So, that's how committed we all were to doing this thing, because we knew that they had a vision, and they communicated with us very well that what they were trying to do was something that nobody had seen before.

• 41:41Josh Horowitz?

  Also, just like, on a basic fun level, no one has ever like, looked cooler on a, in a film, Lawrence, than you as Morpheus. Like, I mean, you acknowledge that, like, that silhouette, as you say, the way they photograph you, it's instantly iconic.

• 41:58Speaker 03

  Well, thank you, I mean, I, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I have to say that Omar Sharif and Peter O'Toole look cooler than I did, so...

• 42:06Josh Horowitz?

  It's good company to be in, at least. Look, the film was a phenomenon, obviously. We're still talking about it to this day. The box office was huge. It was actually, you know, for its time, for a film of that, it won four Oscars. They were all technical Oscars. Do you feel like it got its due? I feel like if it came out today, actually, there's a little bit, at least, awards-wise, more acceptance, at least a little bit.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  I don't think so, because it's science fiction fantasy, and nobody was taking science fiction fantasy seriously in that way, in terms of performance, in terms of story, in terms of... because it's fantasy, right? So it's escape. It's escapism. What's really, honestly, crazy is how relevant it is now with, you know, our real world and our virtual world, and our real lives and our virtual lives. That's what's trippy, that it really does speak to all of that.

• 43:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I literally just did a panel with James McAvoy and Elliot Page here like an hour and a half ago, and I asked Elliot about like films that influenced him growing up. And it was Matrix, because it was cool and it was actually about real, like, deep ideas. And that's what some people forget. It's like, sure, it's the coolest movie ever made, but it's heady stuff that you can like do a PhD dissertation on.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you don't have to. You don't have to be involved in all that stuff. You can enjoy the fantasy of it without really diving into the deep stuff.

• 43:33Josh Horowitz?

  You see it at 12, it blows your mind, then you return to it 10 years later and you're like, oh, let me dig into the deep stuff.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:41Josh Horowitz?

  Did you... so your relationship with Resurrections, obviously, I think some of us, fair to say, we were bummed we didn't get to see you back.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank you.

• 43:49Josh Horowitz?

  In Resurrections. Was there... I mean, did you reach out? Did they reach out with their conversation?

• 43:54Speaker 03

  I reached out, and it just didn't, you know, it didn't pan out. And, you know, I said, "Thank you very much," and Lana said, "Thank you very much, I'll think about it," and that was that.

• 44:03Josh Horowitz?

  Apparently, word on the street is Drew Goddard, a very accomplished writer, is working on a new Matrix film. I don't think...

• 44:10Speaker 03

  Who's this? Drew Goddard?

• 44:11Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:12Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, cool.

• 44:14Speaker 05

  You have his number?

• 44:24Speaker 03

  Joe Pantoliano.

• 44:27Josh Horowitz?

  He's still got it. He's got the timing down.

• 44:31Josh Horowitz?

  Your game in principle. You're not over it. One more go around as Morpheus and Cypher, perhaps?

• 44:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, God, yes.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  I mean, you know, it just, it depends on, you know, how good it is, really, you know? If it's great, yeah, you know, if it makes sense. I mean, I don't know if it makes sense, you know?

• 44:51Josh Horowitz?

  And then just outside, I do want to mention, beyond The Matrix for both of you, you guys have such amazing filmographies that touch these worlds. I mean, it gets to be Perry White. I mean, unbelievable. Is that a moment, like, you step on that set?

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, just to be able to, like, you know, say, you know, I'm talking to Kent. Like, to talk to Clark Kent is kinda, it's kinda, yeah, it's kinda cool, you know? Yeah.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  Man of Steel's a great movie.

• 45:22Josh Horowitz?

  I agree.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  Man of Steel's a great movie.

• 45:26Josh Horowitz?

  You've been in plenty, from Daredevil to The Last of Us recently. I don't know if we're getting any more. Are we gonna get any more flashbacks to your character in the future, The Last of Us?

• 45:35Speaker 05

  I don't think so, but I'm gonna be in the new Wonder Man series.

• 45:46Josh Horowitz?

  Both MCU veterans now, yeah. That was just officially announced, I think, at the release date, perhaps. So, a good experience there, Yaya Abdul-Mateen?

• 45:53Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Yaya, you know? And Sir Ben Kingsley.

• 46:00Josh Horowitz?

  Come on.

• 46:01Speaker 05

  Just to hear him say my name, Joe Pantoliano.

• 46:06Josh Horowitz?

  Did Sir Ben ever call you Joey Pants, or no?

• 46:09Speaker 05

  No, he never, he never did.

• 46:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is there a level of familiarity that people...

• 46:12Speaker 05

  He called me Lord Trouzers.

• 46:18Josh Horowitz?

  That's like the ultimate friendship level. There's Joey Pants, and then there's Lord Trouzers.

• 46:24Speaker 05

  I can't be Joey. I'm 74, so it's Joseph Trouzer.

• 46:33Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my god. I don't know how you got work done. Um, so good. Uh, we're gonna see you in The Witcher. You keep adding to the genre resume, too.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I got this offer to be in The Witcher with Liam Hemsworth. And, uh, I'm playing this character named Regis, who's, um, a vampire, which is very interesting.

• 46:56Josh Horowitz?

  First vampire on the resume?

• 46:58Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah. First bloodsucker, baby.

• 47:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, is-

• 47:04Speaker 03

  It's gonna be great. It's gonna drop on Halloween, so.

• 47:07Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing, yeah. Is there any, is there any franchise you said, I mean, you, you know, you earned the love of this crowd. They already, you already had it, but at the start when you're mentioning Star Trek, Star Wars, everything, you're into all of it. Let's manifest something for you, Lawrence. There's still plenty of road to go. What do you need? What do you want?

• 47:23Speaker 03

  So I know that they're talking about the X-Men now.

• 47:29Josh Horowitz?

  Who do you want? What do you want?

• 47:30Speaker 03

  At this point, I want one of two things. The first thing would be, what do you think about Laurence Fishburne as Professor X?

• 47:50Speaker 03

  That could be cool.

• 47:52Josh Horowitz?

  Approved. Greenlit.

• 47:54Speaker 03

  That could be cool. And then,

• 48:00Speaker 03

  I don't know, I'm gonna let you guys decide. I can't figure it out.

• 48:05Josh Horowitz?

  Star Wars? At this point? Star Wars?

• 48:09Speaker 03

  No, I, I'm, I'm good. I'm, I'm watching everything.

• 48:14Josh Horowitz?

  Do you watch it all?

• 48:15Speaker 03

  I'm watching every Star War- I'm in the middle of, uh, what's it, Rebels now?

• 48:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  The animated one? I'm in the middle of Rebels now, man. I'm, I'm good on the couch with Star Wars. I don't need a lightsaber. I don't-

• 48:27Josh Horowitz?

  Pew pew!

• 48:28Speaker 03

  I don't need it. I enjoy it. But I don't, I don't need it. And then, I think, really, honestly, it's whatever then. Like, people always ask me, "What's your favorite thing you've ever done?" And I'm always like, "The next one." Whatever the next thing is. So I'm, it's been 25 years since The Matrix, and maybe some freak out there has got a strange movie they wanna do, and it's, nobody knows if it'll work. I'm your guy.

• 49:04Josh Horowitz?

  They are available for work. Get your crazy scripts ready. You guys, it's been honestly a true honor to share the stage with you. Congratulations on everything in your career. In particular, though, this 3,000-plus crowd appreciates your work in The Matrix. It stands the test of time. It always will. Give it up one more time. Joe Edgiano, Lawrence Fishburne, everybody.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 49:47Speaker 07

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

• 50:30Speaker 07

  It's high drama, cozy vibes, and absolute couch detective energy. Grab your throw blanket and hit subscribe. Search Murder She Watched wherever you listen to podcasts, and let's solve this thing together.