Jonathan Groff

He's just coming off a Tony win and he just might be in line for another! Jonathan Groff takes center stage on this episode to talk about playing Bobby Darin in JUST IN TIME, how SPRING AWAKENING changed his life, why he was so well suited for MINDHUNTER, and what he considers the best movie musicals of all time! UPCOMING EVENTS 28 YEARS LATER Q&A with Jodie Comer, Aaron Taylor-Johnson, & Danny Boyle 6/1 in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠⁠ Gary Oldman in LA 6/3 -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  When I came out of the closet publicly in 2009, I really thought I was saying goodbye to anything in film and television. I really was like, I guess that that'll be the end of that. And I'm okay with that because I'd rather be who I am than hide who I am to be in movies.

• 1:21Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:28Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, I'm Josh and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I have a special treat for you guys today. If you love theater, if you love Mindhunter, if you love Frozen, this is the guy for you. Mr. Jonathan Groff is my guest today. A charming, delightful man talking about his latest triumph on Broadway, playing Bobby Darin in Just in Time. He is Tony nominated. He is amazing in it. This conversation is a blast. That's coming at you today on Happy, Sad, Confused. Before we get to that, a couple announcements, updates, things that I've been doing that I want to mention. Speaking of theater, this is just like a fun thing to mention. You know, a lot of people are attracted to the big Broadway shows and I see a lot of them.

• 2:10Josh Horowitz?

  Including just in time with Jonathan Groff. I recently got a chance to see this really cool um set of two different one act plays that is at the Minetta Lane Theater. This is downtown in New York. This is a small theater by New York standards and it's a really cool collaboration that Hugh Jackman is doing with Audible and this theater, bringing these kind of smaller scale productions to the masses with big stars, great playwrights, and at somewhat more, I think, affordable prices. They're tough tickets to get, but if you can get them, I've seen both of these plays. Right now Hugh Jackman is on stage with Ella Beatty, Beatty?

• 2:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, Ella Beatty. She's in that Benning and Warren Beatty's daughter, actually, and she's amazing in this. Never seen her act before. This is a two-hander, and it's called Sexual Misconduct of the Middle Classes. It's really compelling stuff. Also got a chance to see Justice Smith and Leif Schreiber in a play called The Creditors and Maggie Siff. I think that's the third actor in that one. Anyway, these are both excellent productions. Just wanted to mention it. If you're looking for something off the beaten path, that's not Broadway, but it's still amazing theater. These are great productions and I love what Hugh Jackman is doing, kind of giving back a little bit to the theater community. He does obviously such big scale movies and even he's playing Radio City, which is an amazing show. It's kind of

• 3:36Josh Horowitz?

  like song and dance routine, but to see him go back to a lot of kind of basics with this is really cool. Anyway, wanted to mention that if you're looking for something cool to try to see in New York. Speaking of cool stuff in New York, we're just a few days away now, about a week or so away from our June 1st live event with Jodie Comer, Aaron Taylor Johnson and director Danny Boyle, talking about 28 years later. So excited for this one, this movie I'm seeing very soon. I'm hearing good things. It looks amazing. We're going to show some sneak peeks and have a great conversation. The link for tickets is in the show notes, June 1st, I believe at 7:00 PM at 92nd Street Y. And then I've been mentioning it, I'm going to keep mentioning until the day comes, June 3rd, Los Angeles, come on out.

• 4:20Josh Horowitz?

  Guys, there are some tickets still available for this, but I want to get as near a sellout as possible. I want to pack that house because Gary Oldman is hitting the stage with me. And it doesn't get any better than that. Truly one of the great actors of our time of the last thirty years or so that he's been doing it on the big screen. And on the small screen now in Slow Horses, that's gonna be a blast. June 3rd, come on out. It's gonna be a special night. Okay, let's get back to Jonathan Groff. Main event today. Little bit of context. Again, he's playing Bobby Darin. This famous crooner of the sixties and seventies. The role is perfect for him in many respects because he can sing and dance and be charismatic.

• 5:05Josh Horowitz?

  And Jonathan Groff is all of those things. He won the Tony last year for Merrily We Roll Along. And he very well could win the Tony again, which is kind of unprecedented to win it back to back. This conversation is very much about his theater work, Spring Awakening. But also, we talk, of course, a little Fincher, Mindhunter. And all his other, you know, fantastic aspects of his career. He is one of the gems of a human being you will ever hear or see from. And the last bit of context that I want to say for this one, and we talked about it during the course of the conversation. Is when I went to see Just in Time on Broadway. He pulled me up out of the audience and made me dance, made me. I would never voluntarily do this. I do not dance, folks.

• 5:50Josh Horowitz?

  So we dissect that crazy moment in my life. And this could happen to you if you see the show. He does pull up, folks, a couple of different times during the show. It just so happened. It was my time to do it. And I I'm here to tell the tale, as is Jonathan in this conversation. I hope you guys dig this. Some really cool stuff coming up on Happy, Sad and Fused, including a very special Mission Impossible conversation next week. Stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, enjoy this one with Jonathan Groff. No official introduction, but finally officially solo on the podcast, Jonathan Groff. We've had you in groupings, but I wanted you all to myself finally. It's good to see you. How are you?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Good. It feels good to be one on one with you, Josh. I'm doing well. How are you?

• 6:35Josh Horowitz?

  I'm doing very well. We're talking your latest triumph, Just in Time on Broadway. Bobby Darin killing it, singing, dancing, pulling up innocent bystanders on stage sometimes. We will get to that in a moment. Um, but first of all, a warning to those watching and listening, drinking game every time Jonathan Groff cries, do a shot. So be prepared.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. I think I'm gonna, I'm feeling so joyful these days. I don't know if I'm gonna get, anyone's gonna be taking a shot.

• 7:10Josh Horowitz?

  Good. I, well, one thing I do remember, look, you were on the podcast as part of the amazing trio for Merrily on the stage at 92nd Street Y. It was one of my favorite event, live events I've ever done there. And emotions were very palpable that day. Was that unusual for you? I feel like you have very good access to your emotions. But that day in particular felt like, given the experience, the run, it all kind of bubbled up.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yes, I, I am a crier. Like, I do, I do cry kind of easily. And there was something about, I really remember that event at the Y. It was so cool. And there was something about the, the reflective nature of that show. And sharing that experience with Dan and Lindsay that was really extremely emotional. It was like, it was, it was a combination of building a relationship between the three of us that ended up becoming really tight and deep. And then also, like, every night, the introspection that would happen from doing that show was really epic.

• 8:20Josh Horowitz?

  Was, was leaving that show behind, like, tough? I mean, are you good at leaving a job behind? Because you guys were so tight. I mean, I can't imagine, is there a period of mourning? Like, are you guys still in touch? Like, give me a sense of how you kind of recover from that kind of experience.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  I really thought, like, and, and, and Dan and Lindsay thought too, that I was gonna be on the floor when we left that show. I, I loved doing it so much. I loved and love them so much. And I really thought, okay, when I, I have to be careful because I think I'm gonna really fall into a big postpartum, like, depression in leaving this show.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  And didn't at all. This was the big shock.

• 9:07Josh Horowitz?

  Emotional maturity. Look at you. You're forty now. You got it all in check.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yes, and maybe it was because we cried so much during the show. It's like we got it all out. We excavated all of it, but Dan and Lindsay felt the same way. We left and we were like, oh, my God, it felt like the the exact right time, that like perfect timing for it to be over. Such a full experience, such a happy experience. We left before the honeymoon was over.

• 9:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  And then, and then I was out of the show for two weeks and then we went right into the, I went right into the workshop for, which we did for like about a month, I think, or five weeks or something. Or six weeks? I don't know. We did a big workshop for just in time in July and August immediately following that. So then I was right back into this one.

• 9:52Josh Horowitz?

  So this is another intense one. And for those that don't know, the history behind this actually connects to ninety Second Street Y, which is really cool. And like this is, this is long in the making. I would imagine, I mean, look, you've workshop shows before you've been from the inception, but this one in particular, you've been on for what, like seven, eight years in different incubative processes and it's so your show, front and center, obviously, you break the fourth wall, like it just give me a sense like, do you feel, I mean, you feel obviously a passion for all the work, but like, does this one, I don't know, have a more personal connection, given what you've poured into it?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Completely. I've never, I've never been a part of something from the very beginning of the idea before. And it was eight years ago that Ted Chapin asked me to do this concert at the ninety Second Street Y. What's crazy, Josh, is I remember being in the car on the way to our interview that we did with you. It was, I was in the car with Jenny T, who's my dear friend. And we, and she, I worked with her as a publicist. And I said, Jenny T, this is so crazy. I just found out today that the Bobby that they want to do, they're looking to do the Bobby Darham musical next year on Broadway, like in the next season. And Jenny T was like, what? And I said, I know it's kind of crazy and it's really fast, but we're literally in route

• 11:11Speaker 02

  right now to the 92nd Street Y to do this interview with Josh. This is feeling like a shared sign from the universe that that we're, we've got fate on our side and it's meant to be. But yeah, this like, and I hadn't been on that stage since seven years, seven and a half years ago, when we did the concert there in January of 2018. And, and so until we did our interview. So it's very, it's very Josh Horowitz, you know, there's like, you're in the soup of this somehow in, in, in a way. But yeah, I, I like, it was seven and a half years ago, we did the workshop. I mean, I like, I remember writing Alex Timbers, our director, who, who directed the concert at the Y too. I

• 11:53Speaker 02

  wrote him an email the day after we finished and I said, I am like a drug addict. And that was the most exciting thing ever. And I, we've got to make this show happen. What do we need to do? And I flew out to Australia because there was like a musical called Dream Lover about Bobby Darin that was happening there. And they were looking to move that to Broadway, but we had this really specific conceit that we had talked about of, of me starting the show as me and setting the musical of his life in the context of a nightclub and telling it is kind of like a nightclub act because that was Bobby Darin at the height of his powers. And so it's been, I mean, I've, I've in, in like the fall of 2018, I flew

• 12:36Speaker 02

  to Malibu on a week, on our week layoff from Mindhunter to go meet Dodd Darin, the son of Bobby Darin, and like beg him to bless our show and give us the rights. And then Tom Currie, our producer, ended up getting the rights and in like February of 2020, and I was like taking drum lessons while I was working on The Matrix. I just, it's been, it's been like

• 13:00Josh Horowitz?

  The constant drought, yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Long gestating. So to finally be doing it on Broadway is like, is, is, is quite literally a dream come true. A dream from like the back of my brain to, to then be doing it on Broadway. I've never experienced anything like that. It's so cool.

• 13:15Josh Horowitz?

  We should say the show is nominated for six Tonys. You're nominated, of course, coming off of your Tony win last year. This is like, this is like Tom Hanks, Forrest Gump, Philadelphia Territory, back to back. We're doing it all over again, running it back. It's an amazing performance. You own the stage as you always do, but it, and it so suits you, plays to your strengths. You, it's, it's, it's really a treat to see someone. I mean, I saw your like Nicole Scherzinger interview. It's like in a similar way. That is like an amazing, I mean, as you know, that performance, unbelievable. In a similar way, you, you own this one. And I don't know, talk to me a little bit about what it's like to like inhabit Bobby, who for those that don't know, I mean, everyone probably knows Bobby Down to a degree, Dream Lover,

• 13:59Josh Horowitz?

  Mac the Knife, some songs. Maybe they know that his life ended far too prematurely. I don't, talk to me about like what the, the joy of inhabiting him night after night. This is a joyful show despite the fact that his life ended prematurely.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Oh, it's like, I feel like I'm gonna cry. And you just asked me that. So I'm now realizing that maybe me crying is actually it's you asking questions that makes you.

• 14:21Josh Horowitz?

  I'm the trigger.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Like, that's such a, that's such a, that's such a, like, normal question to ask. Why is that making me emotional?

• 14:32Josh Horowitz?

  Timber of my voice, I'm sorry.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  It's you.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  What is it like? It's like the, I think it's, it's making me emotional too, because it's like the gift of a lifetime. He, he was this supernova talent, dead at 37, died young, was told he was gonna, when he was eight, overheard that he was gonna be dead by the time he was 16. So he was living always on borrowed time. And when I began researching him eight years ago, and I started looking clips of him, looking at clips of him on YouTube, I was immediately sucked in by his completely unique, kind of ferocious, primal way of performing. He's not just singing songs. He's not just like coming out there and like giving you the hits and walking away. He is

• 15:20Speaker 02

  like singing for his life every time he performs, partially. Because um his health was always something he was negotiating and I think also partially because he just loved. He just lived to perform and I we we have a lot of dissonance in our, you know, he's from. The Bronx, I'm from Amish country, Pennsylvania. We address this in the show. There's a lot of things about us that are quite different, but this very. Essential thing of this, this like um need to perform and this um like. Kind of like extremely passionate, almost spiritual relationship between performer and audience member. I really. Identify with him and and so to be able to like.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Spend these last few years dissecting his performances and. Understanding his physicality and trying to understand his musicality and. I I learned how to play the piano for this and I learned how to play the drums for this and I took. Ten weeks of dance lessons before our first day of rehearsal to try to really embody. How he moved and what he did and he was like, you know, I I I'm obsessed with watching, have always been obsessed with watching clips of like Barbra Streisand and. Liza Minnelli and Judy Garland and in a more modern way Beyonce. I like, there's a lot of these like female diva performers that have this quality that I'm obsessed with as a homosexual.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Uh it's part of the requirements of being one and Bobby Darren, Bobby Darren like is is one of the few male performers that gives me that same. Hit and that same rush and so to to like embody his. Musicality and his movements is like it feels. It feels fucking incredible. It's like the the show starts. And I'm out there for two and two two hours and thirty minutes of Haley, who the woman who's dressing me just told me last week that the longest time off stage is forty five seconds. And the show feels like it's five minutes long to me. I love doing it so much.

• 17:25Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, so we we talk about how he died tragically thirty seven, kind of sickly to a degree his entire life. I mean, you've accomplished so much. You just turned forty. You have Tony. You have all these awards. You have the accolades. You had a lot of success early on on stage. Like, do you feel the ticking clock? Do you like judge yourself against? Time, your age.

• 17:47Josh Horowitz?

  Are you that kind of person?

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Honey, I don't think about that. I'm not, I'm not, and it's obviously the different, you know, generically for, generally, I should say, for men than it is for women, and the expectations and aging and all of that. But I, I, I like, for better or for worse, because it goes both ways. Like, I'm so right, I mean, in the here and now, and the, the, this, the speed with which this project has come on the back of Merrily, this like, because we did a workshop of this in March of last year while I was doing Merrily We Roll Along. And I was like waking up and vomiting in the morning before the workshop. I got like,

• 18:32Speaker 02

  it was, my body was so tired from doing the eight shows a week, and then we were doing this workshop. And I was really like, oh, God, I couldn't, because this show has been so many years in the making, I'm doing this, but I, I would not be able to push myself, I don't think, for anything else other than this. There's something about the, so, so I guess I do feel the ticking clock and the kind of ferocity as channeled by him, like, like getting the chance to play him and getting the chance to develop the show, it's given me this, this like on-ramp to that kind of like front-footed aggression, which is not necessarily where I live as a person normally.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  In the last, like, certainly in the last year and in the years in developing this, that, that time is running out energy, it has been cultivated in me just simply by working on, on, on the show and by, and by playing him every night.

• 19:39Josh Horowitz?

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• 20:22Josh Horowitz?

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• 21:07Josh Horowitz?

  It's now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you've heard about them, you know what to do. Let them know it was happy, sad, confused. That's the best way to support our show. If I had a dollar for everybody in my life who's benefited from therapy, I would be a very, very rich man. Therapy has certainly helped me, especially when I was a confused teenager. And thankfully, that's not a shameful thing to say anymore, right? It's okay to seek help and need help and talk about it. We're all doing our best. We're just trying to get by, right, guys? Unfortunately, the reality is that getting help is still harder than it should be. That's why I'm thrilled always to have Rula as a sponsor of Happy Sad Confused, because it's very obvious to me that online therapy should be both accessible and affordable for everybody.

• 21:52Josh Horowitz?

  So let's make it easy for anybody who wants help to get help. That's where Rula comes in. Here's the thing a lot of online therapy platforms don't actually talk about: most don't take insurance. That means you're either paying out-of-pocket or signing up for some very expensive monthly subscription. Rula does it all differently. They work with over 120 insurance plans, so the average copay...

• 22:15Josh Horowitz?

  I can't get over this. It's just 15 bucks a session. So basically two of your lattes. Okay. A pretty good deal if you ask me. That means you can get real therapy from a licensed professional without breaking the bank. And Rula doesn't just set you up and leave you alone. They give you that therapist and then they're along the way, the whole journey with you to make sure your care is working for you and you're actually making progress, hitting your goals. This can all happen right away, guys. With Rula, appointments are often available as soon as tomorrow. There are no wait lists. There's no frustrating back and forth. They make it easy. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com/happy to get started. That's rula, R-U-L-A dot com slash happy. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not

• 23:00Josh Horowitz?

  against your budget.

• 23:06Josh Horowitz?

  So as I said, I got a chance to see the show the other night, just in time on Broadway. It's amazing. You're amazing. You're singing and dancing throughout. And I just want to talk about this openly and confront you about this because this is a moment, just another night for you, but a traumatic moment in the best possible way for me forever, Jonathan. Opening moments, you're singing and dancing through the aisles. I presume you usually look for a person to kind of gift with a moment of a lifetime and dance with them. You lock eyes with me. Give me your perspective. What, did you know I was there? Did you just happen to see me?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Oh, I rarely know who is there. And I, so there's like, like you mentioned, the opening, Bobby Darin was famous for interacting with audience members live in the moment. So many stories of people saying, Bobby Darin, my mom was there when she was 11 and he danced with my mom. My mom was in a blue dress and he kneeled down to her and said, this was his special magic, was in the moment, interaction with the audience. You can hear it on a lot of his live records. And so we wanted to bake this into the conceit of the show and into the moments of the show. And so there are set moments where I go into the audience

• 24:20Speaker 02

  and dance with people. And there's even, if you can believe it, Josh, set seats that I interact with people.

• 24:30Josh Horowitz?

  Did I just happen to be in the lucky seat?

• 24:32Speaker 02

  You happened to be in the dance seat, Josh. So I, so I, and I did not know that you were at the show and I was walking through the audience as I do every night and making, I got it. And then I, I, I could not believe that you were sitting there. And I'll tell you, my experience was like, I was like, oh my God, it's fucking Josh in the dance seat. What the fuck? And I held out my hand to you and you looked like you wanted to die. That was your first, you were like, oh my God, I, this was what was so amazing, at least from my perspective about what had happened. You looked at me like, I cannot fucking believe this, you're

• 25:16Speaker 02

  asking me to do this. And I rather the hole, like a hole opened up below my seat and fall into the depths of hell than stand in front of us right now. But then about point, like, like point five seconds later, you took a breath and you took my hand and you-

• 25:34Josh Horowitz?

  Put down my drink, put down my alcohol. Thank God I had a drink.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  And you, and you spun around with such grace and confidence and charm and effortlessness. And there was absolutely nothing awkward about, you were like, oh no, all right, here we go. And you, and you wrote, I would say you rose to the challenge so elegantly.

• 26:01Josh Horowitz?

  That means the world to me.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Well, much so that I was like, I think maybe he liked that. When you sat back down, I was like, I think maybe Josh enjoyed that.

• 26:09Josh Horowitz?

  I, I did feel, here, my perspective is, you had it totally down. First of all, yes, I wanted to die. I in fact said to you, in the moment, as you, as you beckoned me to come up, I said, I hate you. And I apologize for that. And then I, I tried to rise to the occasion. I got through it. I thought I had a stroke and a heart attack at the same time. My wife saw me like dying in my seat, but it was, it was a beautiful moment. I will never forget. It was amazing. And the, the second added bonus was, I will say, and I know this is self indulgent to talk about this, but hopefully it gives folks a sense of what the show's like, was Holt was in the crowd. Holt McElhenney, your co-star from My Hunter, who I, who I went over to say hi to in the intermission. And he was

• 26:51Josh Horowitz?

  very kind. He, he said to me, he's like, you did great. Do you have a dance background? I'm like, Holt, come on.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  That is so fucking funny.

• 27:03Josh Horowitz?

  It was amazing. So.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  He came backstage and he was like, Josh, Josh wanted me to tell you that, that he loved the show and that, and, and, and that he, you know, he had to go home, but like he would have come back and he's not coming back because he didn't enjoy the show, but then I'll talk to you later. And that he, he really did enjoy the dance. So the guy was like.

• 27:20Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I wasn't planning on coming backstage. I didn't know. I, I never know when, when to do that or not. So I should have in retrospect, but thank you for that moment that I will never forget.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Oh my God. Thank you for being such a champion, such a sport. And you, you, you're always welcome backstage whenever you want to come back, whether you're at the show or not.

• 27:35Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Fair enough. So, um, uh, speaking of Holt, I mean, that must be a treat. You get all these fun visitors. So Holt's come by, has Fincher come by yet? I'd love to see David Fincher at a Bobby Darin musical.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  He hasn't been there yet, but I imagine that he will be. He came to see Merrily We Roll Along and he came, so Holt, we did this, that concert at the 92nd Street Y. Seven and a half years ago between shooting season one and season two of Mindhunter.

• 28:01Josh Horowitz?

  He knows. Yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Holt came to the 92nd Street Y with Fincher and Seon. They all, so if you can, like, like, uh, the idea of Fincher at the Bobby Darin musical on Broadway, if that's surreal to you, then, and then. Take it a step further and imagine Fincher and Seon at the 92nd Street Y, seeing like the Bobby Darin songbook sung. I mean, that he really is such a, he's such a sweet supporter. So I imagine that, you know, next time he's here, hopefully he'll, he'll come by.

• 28:31Josh Horowitz?

  I'm obsessed with him. He, he's the ultimate bucket list podcast guest. I've interviewed him over the years, but he's, he's, he's, he's reticent to do the full podcast experience. One of these days though, I'll wear him down. Um. Should I, should I give, uh, in your mind, have you given up hope? It seems like Mindhunter, beautiful two seasons, but we're not, we're never going to get more. Is that in your mind or do you keep an open mind?

• 28:50Speaker 02

  I have no idea. I have no idea. I haven't heard anything. I haven't heard anything.

• 28:56Josh Horowitz?

  Have you guys ever come close? Like, was there ever a talk? Like, did you feel like there was a momentum for a season three or a wrap up movie or something that you felt like, oh, there's a tangible, actual potential plan?

• 29:08Speaker 02

  No, no one ever tells me about it. Yeah. There's like, there was, there like, um, I even have that Mindhunter joke at the top of the show that we say, which was always like, Holt's now been like four times to the show, which is.

• 29:22Josh Horowitz?

  I was wondering if that was specifically for Holt, you know, that's in the show every night.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  That's in the show every night. Yeah. And he just happened to be sitting at a table that night. So I got to point to him in reference. But yeah, I, I, I haven't heard anything about, about Mindhunter season three.

• 29:38Josh Horowitz?

  Did, did the discipline of theater help you in that experience? I mean, the, the stories of Fincher obviously are well known. The, the takes and the meticulous nature of it. Did the repetition of theater, the training, did that serve you well?

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Absolutely, absolutely. And it's funny, our, the, our amazing choreographer, Shannon Lewis of Just in Time. Her husband is Mark Kudish, who played the tickle principal in the first season of Mindhunter. And he's also an epic, like Titan of the New York theater. And he, when we were on the set, we were, we were talking about how like, in, in some ways, the, the multiple takes and the repetition feels more comfortable to me. The, like Fincher's process feels more like home to me than a usual, a usual.

• 30:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, like two and done? Like, wait, we're not gonna keep doing this?

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, whereas, because I'm so used to theater, like doing it multiple times is, makes me feel more relaxed. Like we're like, we're really getting to, to dive in and to dig in. And, oh my gosh, yeah, like, that, especially getting to do those long interview scenes, um, where we was like 10 page scenes. And it really felt like a play, getting to play those long scenes from beginning to end, 10 pages. Like what a, what a, um, what a treat.

• 31:02Josh Horowitz?

  So if you'll indulge me going back, since we've never done the solo pod before, the going back,

• 31:08Josh Horowitz?

  I loved listening to your Tony speech last year and talking about your parents and letting your freak fly as a kid. And I've actually spent a lot of time in, in, where, around where you grew up. My, my wife's parents lived in Nottingham, Pennsylvania, in Amish country, right around there.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  No way.

• 31:26Josh Horowitz?

  So, so, so give me a sense like, I don't know, kid Jonathan Groff, loving. Musical theater, loving, loving theater, loving film TV presumably. What did your parents make of you? How quickly did they kind of like embolden you to kind of follow that path?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  From the very beginning, my, my dad trains and raised, my dad was supposed to take over the dairy farm. He was the oldest son in a Mennonite family and they had cows and he was supposed to do that. But his passion was horses. So he sort of like took a left turn and started his own business as a horse trainer. My mom's passion was coaching and field hockey. So she, she studied to be a teacher, but really the, the point was she ended up being a phys ed teacher. But the point for her was, was, was coaching girls field hockey. And so they both really understood, just like the, the, and I, I said something like this in the speech, but like,

• 32:25Speaker 02

  they understood like passion, the importance of following passion. So even though they didn't, they didn't have any experience whatsoever in theater or singing or any of that. I expressed from a very young age, my interest in that. And they were, they were beautifully like driving me to play practice and all of it. And community theater stuff, they were totally supportive of that from the beginning. And then when I was getting ready to go to college, they were like, please do not go to college and, and have us help you pay thousands of dollars for a theater degree. They were like, why don't you go to New York first and see if you can make it?

• 33:07Speaker 02

  And as actor, cause you don't have to, you don't have to have a college degree to be an actor. So why don't you go to New York and see how that goes? And if it doesn't work out, then you can go back to college for something else. So they were really supportive of me in, in, in pursuing my, moving to New York, which I did when I was 19 years old.

• 33:27Josh Horowitz?

  So yeah, so you, you moved to New York a little over 20 years ago. No looking back ever since. And it wasn't quite the Broadway debut.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  What's happening?

• 33:38Josh Horowitz?

  We're okay, we're okay, we're okay. Calm down, everybody calm down.

• 33:43Josh Horowitz?

  Do we think the crying is connected to the spitting? Is it all about like the water? Like, is it, is it just water wants to escape your body?

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Yes, I, I'm just really full of juice.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Waiting to come out.

• 33:57Josh Horowitz?

  My god. We don't have time to dive deep into everything, but I do want to mention, obviously, Spring Awakening, which is obviously such a seminal, important part of your life and career, and for a number of reasons, I know. Well, it's the show, it's the friendships, it's where you were at your life, it's coming out around that time. I mean, when you look back at that, is it all kind of like baked in together? Like, this was maybe the formative pivot point in my life and career?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  It totally was, for all the reasons that you mentioned. It was like, artistically, I, because that show is such a work of art, and being able to do that show eight times a week, and this is like, there's something that can change you on a cellular level, because I forget who said this, but we are what we repeatedly do. And getting the chance to perform something really profound, like changed my taste from the inside out, and made me a better actor from the inside out. And so artistically, when I left that experience,

• 35:08Speaker 02

  I had a completely different, like, nose for what I was looking for next than when I started that job. It just completely changed my appetite for what I was looking to do, and how I was wanting to grow, and how I was wanting to keep evolving. It was really incredible in that way. And then I was playing this character that didn't let the world define him, and who was a rebel, and who stood up for what he believed in, and was really outspoken, and really front-footed. And I was really the opposite of that in my life. I was a people pleaser, and I was in the closet, and I was kind of shy. In declaring who I was and what I wanted, if it, if in any way it would create dissonance externally.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  And when I left that show, it was like I had worked on this muscle of speaking my mind. And a month after I left that show, I came out of the closet and I really, I really feel like it was, it was in, in large part because that, that side of myself that I wasn't in touch with got awakened, so to speak, in getting to play Melchior. And when I got spit out the other end of the show, I had this, I had this side of myself that I, I then could put into my real life.

• 36:27Josh Horowitz?

  It also gives birth to a lifelong friendship. You know, the internet, the world loves you and Lea Michele. Like, there are few friendships the world loves more.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  Oh, that's so sweet. I mean, yeah, like, we're, we're, we're trying to figure out how, in December, because we met at the audition in 2005, we're trying to figure out how we're gonna celebrate 20 years of, of knowing each other, starting this December. She came, she came to the, she came to opening night of Just in Time, and then she came back a week and a half later on a Sunday matinee with her four-year-old son, Ever, and they sat on an aisle, so I could like into kind of, it was on the opposite aisle from where you were sitting, the aisle that I-

• 37:04Josh Horowitz?

  Hot seat. Careful, careful, Lea. I mean, she's ready.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  That aisle, but I like, I interact with people in that aisle. And so I got to like high five Ever during Dream Lover, and she was, and he was on the edge of his seat. He was so cute the whole time. And that, talk about crying. We, I, we like finished the show, and I was in the elevator about to come out for like the kind, the bow music that we perform at the end. And I just started hysterically crying because I just was like, oh my God, what a special thing. He's four. He's gonna remember this now for the rest of his life, this moment, and this history that I have with his mom. And now there's this little boy in the world, and now we're creating memories, and it's just so cool. It's such a, it's so cool to share that with, with people that you come up with. By the time you're 40, you've like, you've shared a lot of life, 20 years.

• 37:53Josh Horowitz?

  You, you guys must, though, talk about professionally collaborating. There must be a dream project or two to do on stage or elsewhere. What do you, what do you guys want to do?

• 38:02Speaker 02

  I have an idea. Well, I, I, we, I've been sending her plays for a while, and we, we constantly are talking about it, trying to find what the right thing is to come back together. And I have an idea for- Like, I would say, late summer, early fall, 2026. Because I also want to mark, because 2006 is when we were performing Spring Awakening, and I want to mark with her 20 years of working together, too. So I have an idea that I just talked about with her, like, in the last month. And she was like, oh, yeah, let's try to do that, so.

• 38:38Josh Horowitz?

  So, okay, I know you're not going to say what it is, but give me a hint. Is this a two-person thing? It's musical, it's something we know, what is it?

• 38:45Speaker 02

  It's like, I don't want to, at this point, it's just a dream of something.

• 38:51Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know, you two attached is probably more than a dream. I think your name's attached to a theatrical production is probably going to get a greenlit.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  It really is a dream. I've started to reach out to the people that I need to reach out to, but, yeah, I don't want to fuck it up.

• 39:05Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough, fair enough.

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• 40:17Josh Horowitz?

  I'm fascinated by the kind of like, so there's the, obviously the amazing theater work. There's TV Mindhunter, then there's the film work. And you've been very deliberate, I feel like, whether purposely or not, and kind of filmmakers you've worked with, whether it's, you know, working on The Matrix or with Shyamalan. You've had these nice, like, choice, kind of plum, smaller kind of opportunities in film, while the theater career is insane. I don't know, do you, do you feel like you have to fight more for opportunity in film? Like, does that, is there, is there a kind of like a distance, a dissonance between your stature in theater and what you want to do in film? And where does that sit with you right now?

• 40:53Speaker 02

  When I came out of the closet publicly in 2009, I really thought I was saying goodbye to anything in film and television. I really was like, I guess that, that'll be the end of that. And I'm okay with that, because I'd rather be who I am than hide who I am to be in movies.

• 41:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  So, everything that's come since then, uh, starting really with like, looking on HBO and, and then the things that you mentioned. And really, like, David Fincher changed my whole career by casting me as Holden in Mindhunter. That was a huge, never could have ever imagined that that, something like an opportunity like that, where I'm playing a straight FBI agent, interviewing serial killers, that, that would ever happen.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, like, everything that, that has come in film has felt like a, like a fun bonus. I haven't, like, I have, I've been able to kind of, now, because of the wave of progress that has happened in, since 2009, in regards to LGBTQ acceptance and evolution and gay marriage and all of that, and the cultural shift, like, I've, I've been able to do film and television in a way that I never anticipated. And I, you know, I really feel like the film especially is a, is a director's medium more than an actor's medium.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  In, in, in that, like, when I get to, when I show up at the theater, I perform the show from start to finish. And there's a real kind of, like, primal...

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Base, basic kind of like actor, audience relationship that happens and we're essentially, we're in charge of our edit, we're in charge of the pace.

• 42:51Josh Horowitz?

  Once those lights go up, once the curtains up, you're the, you're in charge of that show. No, there's no one stepping in.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  And I love that. And so I, so I like, I, I've really enjoyed the TV and film work I've done because I, I really love working with directors that are like geniuses that are like, since it is a director's medium, getting to work with like Fincher or Andrew Haig or Knight or Lana, like the, or Ang Lee was the director.

• 43:22Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, sure.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  We ever do like the, like being able to feel safe to play and stretch and try things because I know at the end of the day, these, these directors are the smartest people in the room and they're gonna put together something that, that is in line with their incredibly specific vision. That's been really joyful. And I, it's funny, like they were, like I looked out my window in the, my apartment the other day and there was a hair and makeup trailer there. And I was like, ooh, because the thing I think of is like.

• 43:59Josh Horowitz?

  The waiting, the whole.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Early mornings, yeah, the waiting, the like, the, all of the mishegas that has to happen before, the acting on a film set is like, the time between action and cut.

• 44:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Is so brief, the actual acting, the most of the hours are, are not acting.

• 44:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  So just as an actor, I feel more used in the theater, but I, I wrote my, I'm, I'm developing some projects with this amazing director, Aton Fox. And we had a call this morning and I, and I wrote him a tag, I sent him a voice note actually, talking about that makeup trailer thing. And I was like, Aton, I am ready to, to fall in love again with making movies and I'm ready to fall in love again with being on a set and, and release this notion that it has to be, that it, that it's an uncomfortable experience as an actor. But even like the thing of people coming up in like. Just as wet.

• 44:58Josh Horowitz?

  In between each take, just.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, he can imagine. Like, in theater, I can just, I can just secrete.

• 45:07Josh Horowitz?

  You more than anyone. Give that man freedom to secrete as much as he wants.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  That's maybe, maybe it's just a very basic way. That's why I'm drawn to theater more than film. It tells you, he's like, you're shiny. You have to. And I was like, no, this is, this is what happens when I act.

• 45:22Josh Horowitz?

  For the deal.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  And then on stage, you can get away with that. And on film, they're, they're, they're powdering it away.

• 45:31Josh Horowitz?

  It is the borderline or more than borderline shocking that I don't think you've ever done a non-animated musical film like you've, you've obviously frozen doesn't get any bigger than that. But like, they're not that few and far between these movie musicals now. They, they happen a few big ones a year. You must, you, you've gone up for these. You've come close. Like, I don't know. What's your relationship to the modern movie? Musical? Are there ones you've wanted? Are there ones you still want to do that are in development? What's, are there dreams of, of that?

• 46:04Speaker 02

  It's funny. Like, I, I feel like also with movie musicals, there's, they're also so hard to get right.

• 46:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  And I, I was, I was like attached to one with Kristen Bell. We were gonna do one a few years back.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  And yeah, like I, I, I would love to do a movie musical. I'm really fascinated by the medium of movie musical and how they work. The, although I guess Wicked was a huge hit. That's right. It was like a massive and I loved it. So that's a good example of one that's working now or has worked now. I, I really, and I'm way too old for it now, but I really think that. The the movie musical that could just really blow up the genre again would be the film version of Spring Awakening. In the same way that I feel like that the the stage

• 47:05Speaker 02

  production of Cabaret directed by by Hal Prince was a huge success, but then Bob Fosse directing that movie and the way that music is used, that Cabaret is one of my favorite movies of all time, and the way that that music, the way that that was a musical, but also a movie, like the characters were singing, but it was all kind of performance based. And it sort of did that in a way in Chicago that all of the most of the songs were in Roxy's head. But I feel like Spring Awakening is is really just like the perfect movie musical because all of the songs are in the characters head. They kind of serve as like music videos.

• 47:45Josh Horowitz?

  Can you give me off the top of your head Jonathan Ross top five movie musicals of all time? What's what's your Mount Rushmore? What are your favorites? What are your go tos?

• 47:52Speaker 02

  Okay, Cabaret is not only like one of my favorite musicals, but one of my favorite movies period of all time regardless. I love Cabaret. I love all that jazz. I love Grease. I love The Sound of Music. And I love Mary Poppins because that can that count as a movie musical? Yeah.

• 48:12Josh Horowitz?

  Plenty of music in there. Yeah, okay. There it is, the definitive list. We're running on time, but I remember on our conversation from Merely, your co stars ribbed you lovingly about kind of the work life balance, the the song, the song about the the takeout boxes in your apartment.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  The takeout bags. There's a sugar fish bag as I look to my right.

• 48:39Josh Horowitz?

  Sugar fish. That's it's gonna smell soon, man. That's sushi. That's you gotta be.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Well, I ate all of it. It's just a bag.

• 48:44Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, good. So are you figuring it out? You want you want a healthy life. The work is is sustaining and it's beautiful, but you also and I haven't what none of us have figured it out really, but like it's a constant work in progress, I guess. But where are you at in terms of kind of, I don't know, finding a life and a and a work balance?

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Good question. Okay, so for this job I did.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Like just the as far as eating is concerned, quick sidebar, I did like prepared meals. So I've had three meals a day delivered to me, uh, five days a week. From the first week of February till now, and that's gonna, and I'm gonna keep with this service until we finish with the Tony Awards and then I'm gonna try and be like, okay, Raff, that's done. Now you're days free, you can try and make things on your own that are healthy. And so I'm just gonna try June and July is gonna be my, my leaning into that.

• 49:43Josh Horowitz?

  I will say that that does sound like a dream to me because like forty percent of my day is spent deciding what I want to eat. So like the amount of mental space you have in your head, I could, I mean, you can, you can cure cancer.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  It's a dangerously convenient, I, and it's so good, I know, I, and I, I'm like really a basic eater. I don't, I don't have, I could eat the same thing every day for years.

• 50:04Josh Horowitz?

  This is perfect for you. Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  So perfect for me, but I wanna branch out, Josh, I wanna break up. So life workouts, life is completely on hold right now, for better or for worse. I'm really giving that Bobby Darin existence of like, the play is the thing, obsessed with my job. I, I even like, yeah, I, I'm really, this is a, this is a really, it's like, I would say it's ninety five, five percent. I mean, yesterday, yesterday was the first day off I had in like, in a while. And I spent ten hours responding to text messages. Literally ten hours. I like went and took myself to lunch and had some wine.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  I was like day drinking, responding to texts, I did like a foot massage, responding to text. This is how like, um, I'm, I'm hoping with the food that once I hit July, June and July, it's just been really intense with the show and I, I. I've never done so much in a show before, so this has just been a very extreme. I would say like five months, but I'm, I'm, I might be seeing the silver lining of a personal life during the day.

• 51:19Josh Horowitz?

  Horizon, there it is. I see it coming. Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  After, once I hit mid-June. I am going to see Beyonce on the 25th of May in the evening.

• 51:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  My religion is intact.

• 51:32Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we end with the Happy Say Confuse profoundly random questions. Here we go. Are you a dogs or cats person?

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Cats.

• 51:40Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Do you collect anything? What do you collect?

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Books.

• 51:47Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Um, do you have favorite video game of all time? Was there anything you played as a kid?

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Super Mario Brothers one, I would say, the first one.

• 51:57Josh Horowitz?

  Classic. Uh, the Dakota Johnson memorial question. She asked me this. Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Definitely one bee in my butt. Let's go.

• 52:10Josh Horowitz?

  Are you offering? Because I'm interested.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Are you? It's like you are, Josh.

• 52:18Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, God. What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Pennsylvania, baby.

• 52:27Josh Horowitz?

  It's what?

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Pennsylvania.

• 52:29Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, lovely.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Farm in Pennsylvania.

• 52:31Josh Horowitz?

  It's, it's not quite a Wawa, but it's, it's home. It's.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Jason.

• 52:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. What's the, who's the last actor you were mistaken for?

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Uh, Andrew Reynolds. All these gays, all these white gays. Although someone, when I was biking by on the street, which was so exciting to me on Sunday after the matinee, I was biking on the Upper East Side and someone just screamed out, Bobby Darin, I love your work. And I was like, oh, I love that. I love that I was just called Bobby Darin.

• 53:03Josh Horowitz?

  He lives again through you. That's beautiful. Uh, you, you did answer this. I'm curious if you'll answer it the same way as you did last time. The worst noted director has ever given you?

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Do it less gay.

• 53:15Josh Horowitz?

  It's hard to top that one. That's pretty bad. Um, in the spirit of Happy Say Confuse, an actor who always makes you happy.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  Ooh, an actor who always makes me happy.

• 53:25Josh Horowitz?

  See them on screen, you're immediately like, I'm in good hands.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Oh, good. Goldie Hawn.

• 53:31Josh Horowitz?

  Great, great. Movie that makes you sad?

• 53:40Speaker 02

  In a good way. Weekend.

• 53:44Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, that's the first for that one. Nice. And a food that makes you confused?

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Marmite.

• 53:58Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah. And what is that again? They spread it on the thing and yeah. Oh, because when you were probably doing Matrix, that was probably all around, right? That's an Australian thing or a?

• 54:07Speaker 02

  No, it was in London.

• 54:09Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, okay.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  I think it was. Yeah, I was doing a play there. It was disgusting.

• 54:17Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, that won't be part of the diet when he comes out of his three meals a day regimen.

• 54:23Josh Horowitz?

  I'm so, I'm so happy we made this happen today. Congratulations on all the success.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Thank you for coming to the show and for being such a game dancer.

• 54:32Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my God. I don't know. Let's go back to the videotape. I'm not sure how game I was, but thank you for remembering it that way.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Oh, game. It was great.

• 54:40Josh Horowitz?

  Justin Time is the musical, folks. Get your tickets now. It is such a treat to see this guy doing what few can compare to. He's the best at what he does. And good luck at the Tonys, man. I'll be on the carpet, so look for me there. We'll catch up.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  I will. How exciting. Okay, I'll see you there.

• 54:56Josh Horowitz?

  Excellent.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 55:18Speaker 06

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• 56:02Speaker 06

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