Episode 573: Dr. Jonathan Schoeff: Peptides and the Marketing Behind Modern Longevity - Part 1

Are you actually making healthier choices, or are you just buying whatever wellness trend sounds the most convincing? The wellness world has gotten very good at selling certainty. Peptides, longevity stacks, skin hacks, GLP-1s, miracle supplements, and "expert" advice are everywhere. The problem is that confidence online does not always mean credibility. A lot of people are spending serious money on things that sound scientific, but are backed by weak evidence, half-truths, or marketing dressed up as medicine. This matters because your health decisions should not be based on who has the best abs, the biggest platform, or the loudest opinion. Real performance comes from understanding what actually moves the needle: muscle, metabolic health, insulin sensitivity, smart recovery, and knowing how to question what you are being sold. The basics may not be sexy, but they work. And in a world full of shortcuts, doing the boring proven things is often the boldest move. Dr. Jonathan Schoeff is a surgeon, longevity expert and co-founder of The Longevity Lab who brings more than two decades of medical experience to the conversation around health, performance, and aging. He works with clients through a science-forward, evidence-based lens, helping them cut through wellness noise and focus on what actually supports long-term health, from metabolic function and muscle to peptides, GLP-1s, and skin longevity. What's Discussed: (01:27) Why real medical credibility matters in a world full of online health experts. (04:00) How social media pushed Dr. Jonathan Schoeff into the longevity conversation. (08:13) Why insurance companies have so much control over patient care. (20:09) How influencers can turn weak science into massive wellness trends. (22:09) What mechanistic data really means and why it does not equal human evidence. (28:30) How GLP-1s work beyond the weight loss conversation. (34:31) Why peptide claims can become dangerous when evidence is overstated. (52:13) Why the Wolverine Stack is one of the biggest red flags in peptide marketing. (01:01:47) How muscle drives metabolic health, insulin sensitivity, and long-term longevity. Thank You to Our Sponsors! Magic Mind: Head over to magicmind.com/jen http://www.magicmind.com/jen and use code JEN at checkout. Pique: Go to piquelife.com/jenniferrsd https://piquelife.com/jenniferrsd to get 20% off for life plus free gifts Momentous: Ready to try supplements that actually do what they claim? Head to livemomentous.com http://livemomentous.com and use code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. Therasage: Visit therasage.com http://therasage.com and use code JEN to get 15% off your order. Your skin Prolon: Prolon is offering listeners 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Find more from Jen Cohen: Website: jennifercohen.com https://jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen http://instagram.com/therealjencohen Books: jennifercohen.com/books https://jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements https://jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements Find more from Dr. Jonathan Schoeff Website: longevitylabwellness.com http://longevitylabwellness.com Instagram: @jonschoeff https://www.instagram.com/jonschoeff/ Facebook: Dr. Jon Schoeff https://www.facebook.com/p/Dr-Jonathan-Schoeff-Longevity-Expert-General-Surgeon-61576146488809/ YouTube: @drjonschoeff https://www.youtube.com/@drjonschoeff

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Welcome to Habits and Hustle, where I sit down with the world's biggest thinkers, entrepreneurs, top experts to uncover the habits and strategies that actually move the needle in your health and happiness, and of course, success. Today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Jonathan Schoeff. He's a surgeon and longevity expert, who is actually still practicing medicine, which already makes him different from a lot of the experts you see online. He's not here to sell you some magic stack potion, or scare you into a protocol, or even pretend that every trend on Instagram is backed by real science. He has spent more than two decades in medicine, working as a surgeon, and helping people understand what actually drives long-term health. And in this episode, we get into the wild world of online health experts,

• 0:51Speaker 01

  the peptide hype, GLP-1s, muscle, skincare myths, and why so much of what gets packaged as longevity is really just great marketing with a lab coat filter. This conversation will make you question who you are taking advice from, what evidence actually means, and why the boring basics like building muscle, improving metabolic health, and staying consistent are still the things that move the needle. So guys, buckle up. This is gonna be a great episode if you're into anything, health, wellness, fitness, and of course, just overall, just great conversation. Enjoy.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  All right, you guys, welcome to another episode of Habits and Hustle. And we have a very special guest today. I should also say that, I know I've said this 10 times before we even started to roll, but this is Saturday, so this guy has to be really great for me to actually be doing a podcast on Saturday. His name is Dr. Jonathan Schoeff, and he is a surgeon and a longevity expert. But a real expert, not just one who plays one on social media, which we're gonna get into in a second. And he could not do the podcast during the week, because he's actually a working doctor.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, the darn jobs get in the way, get in the way of all the fun.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, like, because I say all the time, you know, when I, when I do this podcast, and I have doctors who come on, and I'm like, oh, are you practicing still? And majority of them are like, no, I don't practice anymore. So I'm like, so basically, they've all just like, kind of shifted, or morphed into like, media doctors? Which I never really, like, it's like, don't, have you not seen that at all?

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I have, and I think it's, being new to social media, I was completely naive to that. So there are all these narratives that exist around the pseudo-doctors, the doc-fluencers, all these things that, for the best, I had no concept of. But when I first got on social media, you know, you get blasted with these "you are this" type statements?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  And I'm like, no, I'm actually not. I just, I'm just a guy from Ohio, you know? And people will, I mean, that's the interesting thing about social media, is they want to just box you in as quick as possible. You're one of those guys. You're a keto guy, you're a carnivore guy, you're a, you know, you're a fasting guy, you're a muscle guy, you're a protein guy. And in reality, I look at that and I go, no, I'm just a doctor.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  And then we talked about that. Now, unfortunately, the word "doctor", I think, is totally abused. And it's done in a, I mean, let's face it, it's done in a manipulative way.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Well, 100%, like I said to you earlier, you know, these doctors, they're, a lot of them are chiropractors, and then they're giving a lot of advice on a lot of things that maybe they weren't trained for. So I'm a bit, like, to me, you know, that's what I kind of am, I try to be a little discerning. So, because I think there is so much noise on Instagram, which is why, like, when I saw you, and like, I followed you and I reached out to you, is because I saw that you were legitimately a real doctor, you know, who actually practices and has patients and does the thing. And like, you just, by the way, you have a big following for someone who's barely even on social media. But that was just recently, I would imagine.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, we started this whole, I called it the Great Social Media Project. So back in May of last year, I had no logins or anything. And the, the reality for me, what I do in the longevity space is, I, you know, have clients come in every day, and they would ask these questions. And a lot of them were just totally off the wall. Some were legitimate, but they say, "I follow so-and-so, and this is what so-and-so said. What should I do about that?" And after a while, I go, you know, it probably behooves me to get into this whole social media thing. So it started with really wanting to connect with my clients in the local areas.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Is it patients? Why are you saying clients?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a great question. My, so I look at what I do in the longevity space is very different than what I do as a surgeon. As a surgeon, it's doctor-patient. Someone is ill, or someone has a disease process that I'm going to fix. I just happen to be with my hands. The reason I call my clients, my patients, I guess, in my longevity practice clients, is because I play a very different role. I look at myself as a consultant, as a healthcare strategist, not in the traditional doctor-patient sense. Because, one, I think the world we're living in now is so disenfranchised with the traditional medical model. You can put any names you want on it, but at the end of the day,

• 5:51Speaker 02

  there is this public perception about doctors, and apparently, doctors are paid by Big Pharma. Doctors want to get rich. I didn't, I missed that course when I was in training. Training when I was doing 120 hours a week, doing surgeries. So, but there, again, it goes back to what I said in social media, they, everybody wants to kind of lump you into a category.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  And that's because that's what social media drives, that's what it favors. The algorithm, it's binary, it's controversy, it's black and white, right? The clickbait, I didn't know what that meant, okay? So for me, what I do in the longevity space is very different. I'm taking a physician education, the framework that I have built through 22 years of practice, and using it to redirect the course, or redefine the trajectory of another human being. To me, that's very different than what's perceived as conventional doctor-patient.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  I catch you.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  So, so to me, if you went and hired a, you know, whatever, an interior design consultant, right? You would be their client.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  So it is fundamentally, and I'm all about reframing. Because if you get the framework wrong, the entire relationship, the entire experience is gonna go sideways, in my opinion. And so as soon as, you know, as soon as people, I think, get sucked into that, they have preconceived notions. And I think the medical establishment has not helped itself. I mean, you know, the days, I say this, the days of the doctor always being right, doctor telling you what to do, I think the American public, and really, the world, is disenfranchised with that model. People want to be heard, people want to be seen.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  And then unfortunately, at least in the US, a physician can't keep the lights on. This is real, okay? We can play all the games. But like, a primary care physician, if they're not seeing X number of people a day, they literally can't pay the bills. No one's getting rich.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  And no one that I know personally, who became a physician, spent decades of their life while ever going, was having a good time, was doing it to manipulate people, or to control people, or all these kind of suggestions that the doctors don't care and stuff. Why else would you waste two decades of your life becoming an expert in human health and wellness? The problem is, this is not excusing it, but the system itself is rigged. It is. I mean, who controls healthcare today? It's commercial insurance. I mean, true story, okay? I do surgery anywhere from three to five days a week. And it is not uncommon at all for us to have to call, it's called a peer review process,

• 8:41Speaker 02

  to ask another person on a phone who works for the insurance company, they're employed by the insurance, if it's okay for us to do what, in our professional judgment, is best for the patient. That's the world we're living in. So the idea, all the, and I don't want to get too far down this rabbit hole, but the idea that physicians have it out for the patient, I mean, that's insane to me.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Because I'm losing hours of sleep with a genuine intent to try to help my fellow man.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Okay, so wait, so you said something that was interesting. You said that you have to call the insurance company to see if they'll cover, basically, whatever, the necessary thing?

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Oh, it's even better, by the way. I'll give you the whole scoop if you want.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want, so basically, my question, yeah, I want you to, because, so if they say, no, it's not covered, do you, as a doctor, not do it, do it because they, because you're not getting paid?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Well, it's not about me.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  If the doc, not you, but they're, well, yeah, no, no, no. Because if you do the procedure, it's not covered.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  I'm not getting paid, but bear in mind, who else isn't getting paid? The way bigger fish than me. You see, there's a breakdown of how, let's do this real quick, hopefully, we have time. But there's a breakdown of about how compensation happens. And I'll speak from a surgeon's perspective.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, go ahead.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Primary care or in-office is different. But we deal in what are called procedural codes, okay? Every surgery we do is defined by some numbers on a piece of paper. So the insurance companies are the ones that have to approve, or if you've ever had surgery, they'll call it a prior authorization, okay?

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  The beauty of a prior authorization, the fine print, is literally, this is what the fine print says, prior authorization is not a guarantee of payment. Think about that. Think if your profession operated in that capacity. So I can do a surgery. This is true. It's been pre-approved by the insurance. They said, yeah, we'll pay for it. But actually, we're not going to pay for it. So they'll come back and say, well, there wasn't a psych eval done. And so therefore, we're not paying you. But bear in mind, this is a much bigger picture. Cause everybody looks at the physician and goes, oh, my gosh, it's, it's all their fees and all that stuff. We're about 1% of healthcare cost. Okay. You still have a hospital.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  You still have multiple other physicians, care providers, then the actual equipment, then the actual in, in surgery, you know, the actual devices or implants that we're using. All that are li- all of those are line items. Okay?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  And so if an insurance company comes back and says, no, we actually, we authorized it. We said in writing, good to go. But we changed our mind. Like, how cool would that be if that was your business?

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Well, it's not, I mean, for the person that's on that.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Obviously, that's sarcasm.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Of course. But I'm saying like, so what do people do in that situation?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. So there's, there's a number of things.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Well, the healthcare system is so crazy right now. No, nobody understands it. You can have not nine.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  But they think they do. That's the problem.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  But yeah, but no, but it's, and it's always, it's so complicated. So nothing is ever really covered. I'm paying all this money for, for my copays and for my monthlies to get the PPOs and all these other things.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  And then I'm always, but it, but I'm still paying.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah. And guess who's flying on the private jet?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  The insurance company CEO. I don't see too many of my doctor colleagues flying on private jets.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Look at the administrative, the administrative cost burden, the acceleration of the administrative pool relative to physicians over time, right? The population's increasing. We could, we can agree on that, I hope. Right? And yet the physician, the absolute physician numbers in the United States is a much slower uptrend. But where the explosion occurred earlier in the 2000s was in the administrative roles. So administration doesn't just mean a hospital CEO. Okay? Imagine this, as a physician, if I own my own practice, in order to keep, to give quality patient care in a timely manner,

• 12:54Speaker 02

  I now have to employ some number of people that are the pre-off experts, the actual people going back and forth with the insurance.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  People, yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  And then the insurance says, we're going to approve it. And then after you do all the work, they come back and say, actually, we're not going to pay you. So now those people now have to submit appeals. And you go round and round. The, the process, so again, the administrative burden, if people want to know where their dollars are going, they are going to the administrative burden of healthcare that has become so outrageous. The problem was two, three decades ago, as physicians, we, I think we failed. Obviously, this is long before my time, but I think some physicians were, were reckless. There weren't the guardrails to ensure that, hey, I'm being compensated fairly for my time.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  And there was a time, probably 40, 50 years ago, where you kind of charge what you want and you get paid. So it created an, in, in opening in healthcare cost where costs were thought to be excessive and being driven by physician choices. Oh, look at that. All these administrators come in to help control the cost. But what we forgot was the administrators themselves are a cost.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  So they have not come close to managing cost containment to even justify their own salaries. But the people making millions are the insurance CEOs, they're the hospital CEOs. Those are the people that are profiting off of the efforts. And in reality, the care providers, that's physicians, it's nurse practitioners, that's nurses, that's techs, everybody collectively, we don't account for even upwards of about 10% of the total healthcare cost. So where else is it going? And so the person that suffers, so going back to your original question, what happens? You need a surgery. Okay. Your leg's on fire. You come in, you see, you get seen. This is a surgery you need.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Now, in most cases, that's going to be fine, but say for whatever reason, it gets denied. The insurance company says, nope, you as a patient have a couple of options. First, you appeal that denial. You. So you go to bat for yourself. So now you're fighting the same entity that you're paying probably thousands of dollars in premiums to, right?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  You're begging and pleading, saying, I'm living this. I'm in pain. Like, I can't do this. So patients are one major piece of the, the appeal process, just to get surgery done on them to help them. Okay? The alternative that does exist, and now as we've seen these high deductible plans and stuff, the alternative is the patient pays out of pocket. So that's really, and, and to be honest with you, that's what happens in Canada. It's just those people come to America to get their surgery.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm Canadian. Well, the.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you probably know.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you, well, you gotta wait months and months and months to get anything.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Two years for a knee replacement.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Over two years.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Right now. Yeah. In Canada. And the Canadians are probably going to flip their lid.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Hear me say that, but.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I mean, it's, it's.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Cause it's not, it's not, it's not necessary. I mean, you can hobble around.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  You can't even find a doctor, never mind. This is one of the other problems, even in, forget about Canada. I mean, it, it's actually in the US. No one can find a regular doctor. Nobody can, like, I'm in a certain, you know, socioeconomic place in LA and all these things. Ask me how many of my friends have a doctor. They have concierge. You can only find a concierge doctor.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  So unless you pay a high premium to see somebody, you're not seeing anybody.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Potentially, yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Not, not potentially. It is literally what's happening.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  So even to get the bare minimum, you have to be paying a premium.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Well, consider, look at it this way, though, because the same criticism could be leveled against me.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Concierge doctor? Okay. But I don't understand you. And I'll tell you why. Okay. So you're a surgeon. So you go into surgery every day, Monday through Friday, blah, blah, blah. But then you also have a longevity practice? Like, so, like, I, I don't even, like, so are you a concierge doctor? Like, why both?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  So.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  And also, by the way, before you do that, I need to concentrate because this is like, you're very, but you've got a lot of information. We're doing these shots. Okay. This is a performance shot. It has a lot of amazing nootropics, like lion's mane. Well, this one's, well, this one is the original, but you also, I gave you a caffeine free option.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Okay, we're going caffeine.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  You want caffeine? Okay. So we shake these up. This is basically a performance shot that will help you, will help me focus. Cause God knows I'm going to need it with you.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  If the host falls asleep, the, the viewers are really in for a treat.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Problem.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  I'll just keep talking.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, okay. Wait, we do this, we, we, we do a cheer. So, okay. Here we are. Boom. I've had so many of these already today. I love them.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  It's good, right?

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's good. I was waiting to, for you to drink it.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  It's very chivalrous, chivalrous of you.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Oh, no, it was not that, not that chivalrous. It was, if you kind of like.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, I've had a million. Oh, but believe me, I've had a million of these.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  No, but you know how, like, this is, this is.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Oh, you're watching to see how I'm actually, yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  The, the fun fact about the wellness industry is the more absurd it is and the more disgusting it is, the pricier it is, right? Like AG1, AG1, zero health benefit, zero, nothing. And it's disgusting.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Disgusting.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  And people are like so proud. They're like, oh yeah, just throw it back. One of my clients was in yesterday and, and he was telling me about this green concoction that a chef makes for him and stuff. I was like, how, you know, he's like, it's just terrible. I'm like, why are you drinking it?

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I, I think it's really good. It has probiotics. It has, like, take some fiber.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  That works just as well.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  People don't like the ba- people want magic, magic formulas and magic potions. The fact that AG1 has become like a billion dollar brand and, and it's because they have great marketing. They went to the right influencers, the right podcasts, the right this, the right that, paid, great, great performance marketing. And now they're, they're like crushing it. And everybody's under the impression that they're like doing something great for their body.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yep. Cause it tastes disgusting.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Cause it tastes disgusting.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Disgusting and it's, it's pricey. So it must be.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Must be great.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Really good.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  And Joe Rogan does it, so it must be good, right? That's literally where our brains are psychologically. So, and also like, if you don't know what you don't know, and it's, it looks, it's green. So then psychologically, you think it's healthy for you.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  It's gritty. So it must come from a plant.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. It must come from a plant. So everyone's just like, you know, drinking the Kool-Aid or drinking the AG1.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Drinking the AG1. It's funny you say that. If, if, if I could take a, a brief detour.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Because I've not been on social media long. Like I had in my mind what an influencer was. But now, when I see it play out, especially in medical circles or medical applications, influencer is very much an influencer. I say that and you're like, yeah, I know, that's why they're called him.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  No, no, you're talking about changing the mindset like a Joe Rogan of millions of people. Joe Rogan, when he's talked about methylene blue on it, which is an absolutely outrageous phenomenon by itself. The number of phone calls I got in my practice, do you have, do you have methylene blue? Do you care? Will you, will you get me methylene blue? This was before I was involved in social media and I, so I didn't even understand the connection. But why, why is every, so I used methylene blue in my surgical training to like localize lymph nodes. Okay. So that's how I knew of methylene blue. It's, it's something that we inject into an IV and it consolidates into a limb. Like, why would you want methylene blue?

• 20:57Speaker 02

  I mean, there's, it's a surgical dye, right? The all that, the whole methylene blue story is trumped up. Someone will get pissed for me saying that.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Well, no, I want it. I need to know this.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Okay. So this is, oh my God, I love that you're here. Okay. So methylene blue, it's the hottest thing in like, in biohacking.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  This is still?

• 21:16Speaker 01

  It's still, I mean, listen.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Well, it's gotten replaced by some other.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Well, but the thing is, people are still thinking it's great. So tell me what, okay, so is it a total farce? Is it a total rip? Like, tell me exactly.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  There just really isn't the evidence. So you, you have to look at it this way. And so we're definitely getting into the, the data, like I was talking to you about the buzzwords.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  So the data that is like the 10 commandments handed down by God.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  That's not how it works. Methylene blue, there's, there's a lot of mechanistic data out there. And it's really important to understand what mechanistic data is because it's scary when you know what it is. And as a doctor, my, the most disturbing thing I see in the, the docfluencer circles.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Are the people that seem to have like gone totally off the rails with just rational thought. Like the rules didn't change. A physician is a scientist. They're just, they just specialize in human health.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Anatomy, biology. Okay. Science is science. Science is predicated on a thought process, a systematic way to ask a question and find an answer. And that process starts typically in a lab setting. Because when you get to an organism level, humans are the, the highest level organism. I, you can make, make up stuff, but from, from an intellectual standpoint, from a complexity biologist standpoint. And so trying to test something in a human is very difficult. And after World War II, it's also illegal, right?

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  So when you look at what happens, how do we begin to test? So I observe, say something in nature and go, that's really interesting. I wonder what would happen if I introduced a substance into a cell. So you go, you take a petri dish, plastic dish, you put some cells, single cells, the smallest building block, and you introduce the substance. If we, if we get to the peptide conversation today, we'll, we'll get, we'll get well into that. Yeah. So, but mechanistic data is observing some effect on a single cell. You are trillions of cells. A mouse is trillions of cells. Okay. One single cell, that's typically called like cultured cell lines. Okay.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  And so seeing an effect on a single cell in a petri dish raises questions. I mean, you, you can go, oh, well, that's an interesting mechanism or pathway or biologic activity that occurs. But that's all you can say. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the human body. So what methylene blue does for mitochondria in a single cell line, we don't have any evidence that it has an impact at the organism level. Does that, does that track for you?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  So basically for the person who doesn't understand all these things, you know, like for example, me, would you say that it's all hype? There's no real evidence on it and it's basically a load of non, like a load of crap.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say that. So what, what? Because I think you have to literally parcel out.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Why are people taking it?

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Because, I mean.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Besides that, besides that.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  But there is no besides. Think, I mean, there is no besides. It's literally because Joe Rogan said that, and he has such a powerful reach and influence. This is what's crazy.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  What does he say the reason is?

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Energizing, I mean, again, like I said, in a, in a controlled lab setting.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  What, what it can do, what methylene can do in a single cell as it relates to mitochondrial performance. Realize if we, in the longevity space, mitochondria and muscle should be synonymous. Those two parameters drive metabolic health. And metabolic disease, the opposite of health, is the leading cause of death in the United States today. We could unpack it, but cardiovascular disease is not the leading cause of death. That is an effect of the leading cause of death. What, what blows my mind is we're still 2026, we're still listing off, you know, the statistics, the data around cardiovascular disease, cancer, stroke, dementia. Okay. This whole slew of leading causes of death.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  But I would submit to you very plainly that you don't want to ask, you know, that list. You want to ask what's causing that list? And there's one thing very plainly, which is the progression of metabolic dysfunction, insulin resistance synonymous, metabolic inflexibility. And then ultimately think of it as a, as a timeline, over time, the progression to type two diabetes. Because what we can say, okay, this is nerdy, okay? But what we can say plainly, diabetics, type two diabetics, that's an easy population to study, right? They have a diagnosis, they're in a disease, they, they have a disease qualifier, easy to find in a database.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  What's the, so the question we have to ask is what's the impact of type two diabetes on all cause mortality? Death from anything, three to 400% higher than the average population. That's a problem.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  I am not aware of any other single agent relative to all cause mortality. Cause we talked about grip strength, we'll get into all these like numbers. So all cause mortality, if you say, well, what is longevity? Well, it's preventing or reducing risk of all cause mortality. That's the ultimately longevity agent. Okay. Is that fair?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, fair.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  So in a diabetic, three to 400% higher likelihood to die, period. All cause mortality. But look at the impact of type two diabetes on the risk of cardiovascular death. 2.5 to three times higher than the average population. Almost on par with familial hypercholesterolemia. We all know, you know, cholesterol is bad. We can get into that, that conversation, statins for everybody. And I think there's a rational use to it all. But nevertheless, we're so hung up on cardiovascular death, leading cause of death in the United States today. Which by the way, it's, it's just barely above cancer. But one single agent exponentially increases the risk of death from heart attack,

• 27:26Speaker 02

  stroke, early onset dementia, cancer. And that's diabetes. To me, that's the smoking gun.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  So does that, yeah. So does that mean sugar should be eliminated from your diet?

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Not.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  If you want to, and.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Not directly. No, no.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  And then does that mean then, okay, I'm just, if it's all about insulin resistance, so is there a reason why everyone then should be on a GLP-1?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  The argument I think is being made towards that, the short answer is no. Not everybody should be on a GLP-1. GLP-1s are tools. Okay. They're not.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  They're not weight loss drugs. That, that, that to me, Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk should be pitching a fit because they're not weight loss drugs. They're, they're well beyond that. And we see that in the data, right? The impact on reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease, all these things. But as a purist, as a nerd at heart, you have to look at what we call mechanisms of action. And GLP-1s do one thing and one thing only. They improve insulin sensitivity. Okay. Now, how they achieve that can be through reduction in food noise, very powerful. Slowing of stomach emptying. Okay. What we call delayed gastric emptying. But those agents also work preferentially on the pancreas. So they're improving insulin sensitivity. So this goes to my point.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  People want to say, oh my gosh, Ozempic reduces the risk of heart attack. Yeah. The, the data said 20% reduction of major adverse cardiac events. But it doesn't reduce the risk of heart disease. It reverses insulin resistance.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Right, but.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Insulin resistance is the driver between heart disease, stroke. So you can logically say.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  This is what I would expect to see.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  So you just said to me that cancer, dementia, cardiovascular, you know, heart health, all these things. The root cause of all these things is insulin resistance. So then if you're saying that, then if you're reverse engineering this whole thing, you would say that how do we get not, how do we not be insulin resistant?

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Correct. That is true.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Is then we should be, like, we should, okay, taking the tool of a GLP-1.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  How else can we become not insulin resistant if we don't want to take that?

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Move to Europe? I don't know.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Right?

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll do that.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  So yeah, insulin resistance, understanding insulin resistance, the how, the why, the mechanistic nature of it, I think is really important because this is where all these groups come from. The carnivores, the, the keto's, all these things. There is no one way.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  But wait, then let me, I'm just going to keep on interjecting here because I've got questions. So wouldn't that make the most logical sense? If, if we, if we want, if we don't want to be insulin resistant and there is a tool like a GLP-1 or two or three with all these, you know, new ones coming up? Isn't that like, doesn't that make the most sense? Why shouldn't we be all be on a GLP-1 then? If that will, if that will. Basically create a situation where we're not going to potentially get cancer or heart, probably, you know, heart attacks or whatever else.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I think the fundamental argument is that GLP-1s are drugs. We, let's clear this up, okay? GLP-1 in situ produced by the human body is a peptide.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Short chain amino acid.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yes, okay.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Ozempic is a drug.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're all drugs.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  What makes it different? Its origins are as a peptide. But what does Big Pharma, the infamous Big Pharma, which by the way, I'm going to give a quick PSA to the world here because you have a great following. If a doctor uses the terms big and pharma in the same sentence, you should walk out.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Really?

• 31:07Speaker 02

  We don't talk about Big Pharma. There is a pharmaceutical industry. We don't work, we're not poisoned, we're not agents of Big Pharma. It's just total crazy train where people go. But the important thing to understand is.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Are you getting paid by Big Pharma?

• 31:24Speaker 02

  You weren't supposed to bring that up.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  I know, sorry.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  I, I only get paid a million dollars a year.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Oh, here's another PSA for everybody. Just get it out in, in the open. Openpayments.gov. If you want to know if a doctor is being paid by anybody, Big Pharma or otherwise, you go to openpayments.gov and type in the doctor's name. It's a public database. So all the trickery of like, oh, you're getting paid. No, listen, I can't be paid literally a penny, not a penny that is not reported. Now, I'm already going to go here, but, and yet a fitness influencer can make millions, show you his new car off the peptides he's hustling you for. And there's no conflict of interest there. No, they just, they just want you to be healthy. They're just, they just care so much.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  So a doctor, for a doctor to take money, okay? Which by the way, folks, that was decades ago, decades ago. Where, yes, indeed, there was a time where pharmaceutical companies in my world of spine surgery, yeah, there's, there's a lot of money being exchanged decades ago, back in the nineties. Okay? The laws that had been passed to scrutinize, it is illegal for me to take money and not report it.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Well, so.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  So it's, it's not, do surgeons or physicians do it? I'm sure they do. I'm sure it happens. That's the reality of life. However, it is actually against the law.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  So because it's against the law now, oh my God, there's so many things here. So because it's against the law, is that why so many doctors are hustling these compound peptides? Because they can make money off of it? And because they have the DR in front of their name, people will believe them more. And therefore people will subscribe and buy from their affiliate code and do all the things. And they can make millions of dollars. You don't have, it's not just the fitness influencers, my dear friend. It are doctors who are doing the same shit because they want to make money.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  I agree. And I.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  And the chiropractors.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I would say very plainly, and, and I see this all the time. I commented on, someone gave me the, the distinction of being the number one peptide troll on Instagram the other day. And I, I was like, I don't know if I've ever been number one in my life, but this is great.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Well, how is that possible?

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Because I, I don't know how the algorithm works, but the crap shows up on my feed.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  So if I see something that's fraudulent, I'm going to comment. So when you tell somebody that this is what BPC will do for you.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  The implication is that there is scientific evidence of it actually taking place in the human body. And there is not. So saying, we go back to that cell conversation, saying something like methylene blue does something in a single cell devoid of an organism is actually totally irrelevant. So when people tell me, when I hear a doctor say, it's really exciting, I look at that guy and go, you're, you're lying through your teeth. You and I both know it's not at all exciting. Reading mechanistic data is not exciting because, do you know the natural history of mechanistic data resulting in outcomes based human evidence? Less than 10%, less than 10% makes it to the point.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Because this is the standard in the pharmaceutical industry. You see something, it's interesting, you put it in a cell, oh, something interesting happens. Now we're going to put it in an animal. Oh, something interesting happens. Now we're going to put it in a human. Oops, it causes cancer. Or oops, it doesn't actually do anything at all.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  So, okay, this is.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Does that, does that resonate?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  It does.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Because that's the absurdity of the world we're living in. You're telling me you're excited. And so it's one thing for the general public, with all due respect, to be excited. Because I, I, I get it. You're reading something and you're like, oh, this sounds really cool. Or someone told me, oh my gosh, it regenerates tissue. That's really cool. I don't disagree. But as a physician, as a scientist, it's fraudulent to then tell another human, right? Because you're an authority on human health. I'm using that authority, just what you alluded to. I'm not one to point fingers at intentions or motivations. That's beyond what I can do. But the surface observation is that a doctor who is a trusted resource in human healthcare

• 35:50Speaker 02

  is making claims about a bioactive substance in humans, knowing full well that it does not exist.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  This is not even a leap of faith. It's just crazy train.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is blowing my mind because BPC157 is all over the place.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  All over.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  And it's, and everybody I know is taking it. Everybody.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Millions have been miraculously healed. Did you know that?

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, is it placebo? Is it like psychosomatic? Are people thinking they're being healed by it? Are they getting healed by, by something else? Like, and they think it's BPC? Is it?

• 36:26Speaker 02

  It's, it's hard to say. I mean, I can't, I can't say definitively. So here, here's my.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  You don't take it?

• 36:31Speaker 02

  I don't. When I had my neck surgery, I did.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  But why? You just finished saying that it's not necessary, there's no evidence around it.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  But?

• 36:39Speaker 02

  But there is anecdotal evidence which has value, which has merit. And there is preclinical evidence. So here's the difference, okay?

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  I'm not anti-peptide. I'm pro-evidence. Really key distinction, okay? I've read all the data. If I am talking to a client and they come to me and they say, doc, you know, I twisted my knee and my buddy's been on BPC, it saved his life, da, da, da. Should I be on that? I say plainly, listen, here's the, here's the situation with BPC. Here's what we know to be true. There's mechanistic data, single cell data that suggests that BPC has healing properties. Okay? We've observed that in many, many, many studies. And we also have lab rats that have demonstrated some element of connective tissue healing. Okay? At least 30 separate articles or papers written about it.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  What we don't have is any, zero, any human evidence.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  So here's where the gap exists. Like at a very basic level, who the hell knows? This, I'm not even going to get into the gray market stuff. But who the hell knows? If I inject BPC into my thigh, who knows how long it survives? First step one for a pharmaceutical company to build a drug is something called pharmacokinetics. You actually evaluate it. In other words, does it make it into the bloodstream? Does it survive in the bloodstream? Does it actually deliver to the intended treatments? Like, those are all things leading up to the ultimate question, which is, does it alter outcomes in a human organism? So you see how far removed we are from hard facts? So I can't look you and say, Jennifer, you need to take BPC to heal your knee.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  But wait, okay, okay. But you don't say you need to. But would you put me on it just because it might work? If I decide I wanted to go on it? Why did you go on it for your neck? If you had, it's all the information, you know, all the research you've done. Why did you do it?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Because it might help.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Because of the might. Didn't help?

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Hard to say, because I don't ever use BPC as a, as a standalone treatment.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Okay. Because we have. PRP or stem cells or.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Well, so in, in that space, we have, we, we have decades, maybe centuries of data surrounding growth hormone and its reparative or restorative effects. That's clear. That's very linear. And that's in humans. Big, big difference, okay? So I will pretty much uniformly recommend a growth hormone secretagogue, which has been well studied in humans, in addition to the BPC. I mean, truth be told, I personally, as a practicing physician, I don't trust BPC enough to use it as a standalone.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  In my practice, I mean, over a thousand clients over time, my data is split down the middle, 50/50, okay? 50% have a, you get to the thing too, subjective response. That's a story, which is very valuable. Placebo effect, possibly. Don't discount the placebo effect. I don't as a physician, right? There are plenty of people that you don't have a diagnosis for. They have symptoms that for them are significant, severe, debilitating. And if I have something that they take and doesn't harm them and they get better subjectively, that's not the worst thing in the world. That's just reality.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  So then, okay, so then.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Does that make sense?

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense to me. That makes.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  So it's not, so there, there's a balance and people, again, everybody wants to box, specifically box me in. I try to maintain a high level of transparency around what we do and don't know regarding peptides. What I can't do, I can't say, Jennifer, this BPC, so it increases new blood vessel formation through upregulation of VEGF, vascular endothelial growth factor. And that translates to improved tissue healing and repair. If you heard me say that, how would you interpret that?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Then it works.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  In you.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  But you're a human.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  So I do have that data.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Last time I checked.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, you can always, it's what you identify.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  But the level of data that we have to make those statements I just made are in lab rats.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  So if I don't qualify that, do you see the difference?

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  If I don't qualify as a, Jennifer, this is what we saw in lab rats. Now I need to tell you plainly that the translation of data, positive data seen in animal models to human outcomes, it translates very poorly.

• 41:36Speaker 01

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• 42:21Speaker 01

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• 43:06Speaker 01

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• 43:21Speaker 01

  What about another one, TB500?

• 43:25Speaker 02

  TB500 is even worse, way worse, in Wolverine.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  And yeah, the Wolverine stack.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Wouldn't you like to be Wolverine? I like, I like the.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yes, you kind of look like Wolverine. What are you doing?

• 43:34Speaker 02

  I don't have, I don't have the thingies.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Okay, but you look really fit. What are you, you're on, you're definitely on something.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Oh, have to be. I'm on hard work and consistency.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  See, that's what I'm on too.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  That's what I use. Everybody, oh man, that's a whole nother.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  We're gonna get, so no, I'm gonna start there.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  So, but let's do, let's do TB500.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Let's do TB500.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Because this is really important.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  The TB500, and I also want you to talk about the Wolverine stack.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Wolverine, right, right, right. So what I love is that people are literally going back and forth on social media about combining two peptides in a single delivery model like the Wolverine. So TB500, BPC157. And they're talking about, well, can they survive together? Can they basically cohabitate and all stuff? Who gives a rip if they don't even work, period?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Like, you're talking about layers. See, this is what happens, this is the, the, the influence, right? Is we're bypassing these huge steps in the process.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  And we're talking about, should they be paired together? I'm more concerned, do they do anything? Okay?

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  And obviously, you know, as a physician, first do no harm. So the safety piece always has to come first. And that's why we, in phase one and phase two clinical trials, those are about safety. Phase three is about efficacy. Okay? So you spend years making sure it's safe in a human being. We haven't done any of that for a peptide. Well, but your body produces it. Well, yeah, it produces GLP-1 too. So we don't need safety data? And then let's go down the vaccine route? I'm not going there. So here's really important, the guy stressed about TB500. That, this is borders on criminal, because TB500, by definition, is a fragment, it's a short-chain fragment of something called thymusin beta 4, TB4,

• 45:17Speaker 02

  okay? The thymusin family, thymusin alpha, thymusin beta, these are peptides that were extracted from the thymus, which is, which is a gland that secretes various bioactive substances in a human. And TA1, thymusin alpha 1, thymusin beta 4, have been studied in humans, not to the extent of, say, like a drug, but they actually have indications and FDA approval for use, which means they've been studied enough to say they're safe and they actually work. Okay? So thymusin beta 4, we have great, great studies on.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Never even heard of it, by the way.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Oh, exactly. But you've heard of TB500?

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  So the game is, okay, so we have this larger molecule that's proven to be, have biologic effect, positive biologic effect in humans, so we gotta credit it there. If we just chop off what seems to be the most active part of that molecule, now we're back in the Petri dish, okay? And look what it does in a Petri dish. Oh, wow, it's active. It renders similar effects. Therefore, okay, now we're here and we're gonna make a big leap here. You ready? Therefore, TB500 and TB4 are the same thing. Does that make sense to you? Like, would you sign off on that yourself?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Because that's what's being presented. People talk about TB500, but what they're referencing are studies, they're referencing scientific evidence in humans of TB4, thymusin beta 4. So it's a complete clown show. And one of the kings of this whole narrative is this chiropractor. I don't have any issue with well-qualified chiropractors.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  What's his name?

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Trevor Bachmeyer. I mean, this guy is just totally unhinged. He literally lost his license as a chiropractor and resurfaced as, you know, we were talking about how a lot of criminals, felons like to resurface as longevity experts.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  That's, you know why? Because there's no regulation.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Correct. I know. And so then imagine.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  That's what they can do.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  So, right. So I take a lot of heat, understandably so. I mean, I get it. I don't have any qualms with that. If you can't defend or provide rationale, supporting evidence, data, to what you do clinically, yeah, I would call that, I mean, it, some would call it malpractice.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Okay? So, but yeah, that's the beauty of the wellness experts and enthusiasts and longevity experts, right? You can literally be picking your nose one day and the next day you're an expert, just because you said so.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Just because you said so.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Oh, and then, and then mix in a little bit of ChatGPT.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  You got your certificate now, right? And so that's, but that, the tragedy is, you know, I, people, what's a longevity expert? I get that all the time. I'll give you my definition.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Tell me, what do you think a lot, what, okay, what is your definition of a longevity expert?

• 48:13Speaker 02

  So a longevity expert, first, it's a foundational educational background. So could you be a PhD in human something and become a longevity expert? Yes. I mean, you know, David Sinclair is an example, right? He's PhD lab, lab at Harvard, very well-known for his resveratrol work, right?

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Which was a total fraud, by the way.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  Total fraud. Correct.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  So.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Exactly. But, but, well, we don't want to talk a really big-time fraud. We can talk about the human biologist, Gary Brekka.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Apparently now, when you get a bachelor's degree in biology, you are a biologist. Typically in academic circles, we reserve a title like biologist for a higher-level degree.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Like a master's at least?

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Minimum masters.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Minimum.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. Right. Like, I myself, it's on my wall, I have a bachelor's of science in human biology. I'm not a biologist, nor would I ever reference myself as a biologist. But, but again, the rules.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Also, it's like me, I have a bachelor's in psychology. I'm not a psychologist.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  So you're a psychologist?

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  A clinical psychologist.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  You didn't know that?

• 49:26Speaker 02

  No, I didn't know that. So, yeah, so the, the goalposts are kind of constantly moving.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  I, I digress. But, but really, long and short of it with TB500 is, we're talking about all these mechanisms and actions in the human body that are totally irrelevant. People are referencing, literally quoting research from apparent molecule.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Okay, so the Wolverine stack. What is it? Why are people taking it? And that's obviously also a total scam?

• 49:58Speaker 02

  So I want to be careful here because I really try to adhere to science evidence. I mean, I'm a physician. This is where, to me, the docfluencer role, which can be powerful, can be, there are some really cool people out there that I learn a ton from.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Who do you like?

• 50:17Speaker 02

  And then, oh, I knew you said, Mary Claire, Dr. Mary Claire, obviously from a women's health perspective. I see the, the women's health movement that's evolved from social media is like, probably the greatest thing to come out of social media, at least right now.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  In medicine. But, um, I could list off, there's, there's one woman, I have to look it up, but one woman I follow, she's an obesity medicine specialist. And she gets it, the cool thing about social media is that it does force you to communicate much better because you're trying to deliver a nuanced message in 30, 45 seconds. That's really hard to do, right? It's a challenge. And, and then what I love about social media is that I see it as an element of accountability. Because despite all the quacks that are out there, there are some really smart people. So I don't get to. Say I'm a physician and then just spout off on so I at least I don't believe that's

• 51:16Speaker 01

  But you have it's like it's like basically like a you it's like a it's like the Wild West. You're gonna have people who are good, you're gonna have people who are bad, but you have to be super discerning. That's the whole thing, right? You have to know there's so much noise.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  And it's over information now. It's too much information.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Which is why people are confused, which is now getting back to the Wolverine stack.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. So so BBC TB TB 500, like I said, that that is the biggest hoax that we have. There is absolutely no human evidence and all the rationale or thought around why this is a synergistic synergistic combination, okay, is completely irrational. It's unsupported.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Now, if you were gonna make something, and so why not TB4, thymus and beta four? Very expensive, difficult to make. So no one's so the hustlers are like, hey, I'm gonna just make a just a little, I'm just gonna sneak this in here. And so I literally see these these online peptide companies and stuff that will say TB4 when they're talking about TB 500 doesn't work that way. Like biology doesn't work that way. So at some point in time, we gotta call a spade a spade. That's fraudulent.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  You're literally describing a molecule that's been studied, chopping a little chunk off of it and calling it the same, which that's just grossly inaccurate. If a pharmaceutical company did that, Wall Street would there'd be massive fallout, massive class action, right?

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  So we have a certain standard that we hold pharmaceutical companies to, but we'll let the wellness guys just make these leaps of faith and, you know, it's so cool.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Does that exactly? So does that mean then TB4 is really effective?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Yes, for what it for what it's effective for.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  So if people who have money.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Don't have access to it.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  If they have money, can't they get access to TB4?

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Right now, I would say not really outside of, again, FDA approved uses. So right now, you know, what happened with the compounding pharmacies?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Which is a whole nother, everybody wants the conspiracy. Everybody wants to know the money trail.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  How about we look at the money trail right now, where fitness influencers, people who literally have no comprehension of basic science are making millions. They are profiting millions by taking off their shirt and saying, my stack did this. Okay, the stacks thing makes my head wanna pop off because conveniently, nine times out of 10, their stacks include one to two substances with well-known, well-documented effects and then a slew of other things that are doing all activating this pathway and moving the needle here. When you're on retitrutide, okay, and you're seeing radical body composition, you know, change real time.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Well, we know that's what retitrutide does. We have literally thousands of thousands of human subjects that we've already proven that it works. So now, why do you need to add in Motsi, one amino five, this whole slew of your stack and then try to justify it with these bizarre mechanistic pathways? Again, understanding this, that a mechanistic pathway that exists in a single cell does not mean it exists in a human. Moreover, it does not mean at all in any way, shape or form that it's synergistic with another pathway. The idea in the these guys that say peptide sciences, the the theory that breaks down from the word go is that, well, if I activate this pathway and I activate

• 54:51Speaker 02

  this pathway, that they're synergistic. That's pure hypothesis, not even supported hypothesis.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Okay, but retitrutide is a hot thing right now.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  And I thought.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  It's gonna change the world.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Right. But I thought it was only, well, I heard last time I checked, it was only in rats. It's not human. It's not proven in humans.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, on the conscious. No, it I don't know the exact timeline for FDA approval, but the phase three clinical trials. So retitrutide's at the end of the it's coming up to the finish line. It's gone through phase one, two, and three clinical trials. It is the most well-studied in this is a whole nother story that the world has never seen where an actual drug, pharmaceutical drug called retitrutide is maybe being produced in substandard areas, the gray market.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  And.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  They're all compounded, the ones that I've heard.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I believe, truthfully, I believe some of it's retitrutide and some of it's not. Okay. I mean, but retitrutide itself, that molecule, that synthesized molecule, that drug has the most compelling overwhelmingly compelling science to support its use in humans. We're already, we're probably, I don't know, I'm gonna guess, within a year or two, it's gonna be FDA approved. It's gonna be widespread use through pharmaceutical channels.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  So if someone's buying it compounded right now, but they're still they're getting great results. Is it, what do you say?

• 56:24Speaker 02

  What do I say?

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Do you believe in that one?

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Do I believe in retitrutide? Like, like the the effects? Oh, it's it's it literally is a life-saving drug. The idea, by the way, that that Big Pharma wants to keep everybody sick. People keep themselves sick. Okay. When you gorge yourself on soda and donuts and you sit on a couch and play video games, you're keeping yourself sick. I hate to be a bearer of bad news.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Big Pharma has introduced more therapeutics, even in the last decade, that are targeted therapeutics to actually reverse disease conditions. But Big Pharma is just out there to make money. Sure, they are. They're publicly traded.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  Like who's that's not a secret, but so are the wellness influencers hustling peptides. They're there to make money. You see any of them handing stuff away for free?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  No, they're not like just use my code and get a free shipment of whatever.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, just so, so no, retitrutide, the GLP class, okay? And again, this is where it's tricky because at a very technical level, the GLP class is born out of or built off of a peptide framework. Okay. Calling GLP's peptides, I think, is is a pretty loose. It's a mechanism to alter the narrative because what people are doing is they're taking these wholly unstudied in humans, BBC, TB 500, GHK copper, epitall, I mean, the list goes on and on and on, wholly unstudied in humans. Okay. And then they throw in a GLP, which is studied into the ground decades, decades. The first GLP was brought to market

• 58:01Speaker 02

  in 2005. Decades of data proven effective. And then they're like, well, see, look how well peptides work. Let's parcel this out. We have FDA approved drugs based on a peptide framework.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Then we have the influencer hustle peptides with zero human evidence, not the same camps.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Okay, but how.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  You don't get to lump them together, right?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  But why? People are compounding trisepotide and Ozempic and it's a fraction of the price.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  It's really not, by the way. If you look at, here's my belief about, you want to do the GLP conversation? I mean, we don't have to get too far into it. I mean, GLPs are.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Before we get to GLP, I want one more. I have one more question about peptides. Motsi I wanna know about, and I also wanna know about GHQ, GHK copper.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Right. So Motsi's, again, I think mechanistically.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Why do people take it?

• 59:01Speaker 02

  So it's it's a mitochondrial optimizer. I said earlier, right?

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  It's very clear, the relationship, so your your densest repository of mitochondria, so energy production.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Current skeletal muscles. So think of mitochondrial health as synonymous with muscle health synonymous with metabolic health. That is the trifecta. No other single parameter that you could trend, and this we can get into longevity metrics, has a more direct positive influence on metabolic health than muscle. And I'll unpack that for you, right? But more muscle, technically, I always said more functional muscle, so strength over size, is the single greatest predictor of long-term health and survivability. Okay. But realize that's bolstered through its effects on human metabolism. By the way, VO2 max has nothing to do with insulin resistance. Sorry. Sorry to break it to you, folks. So

• 59:58Speaker 02

  we're saying the leading cause of death in the United States today is insulin resistance in the form of type 2 diabetes. The single most potent agent we have to directly reverse insulin resistance, okay, we can get into the weeds of remission versus reversal diabetes, is muscle, period. Everything else flows from that. Is does that track?

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. It makes sense.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  So. When it comes to

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  You keep on asking me that, so funny.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Well, because, because this is the thing that I wrestle with is you can be knowledgeable and you're not an effective communicator and you might as well not be knowledgeable.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Right. But you're very

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  If it doesn't land.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  It's landing, it's landing.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  If it doesn't land or resonate. And honestly, my platform, my position is very simple. I actually went into medicine. I became a doctor to help people. Crazy. I know it's crazy.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  I didn't do it to get rich. I didn't do it, whatever other, to work for Big Pharma or anything, right?

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  You're from Ohio. I mean, you're just like a

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Simple, truly, this is a simple country surgeon. Like, that's my origin. It is not anything fancy or elaborate. And I really believed, becoming a doctor, I could help people. And so when you look at what's going on in the United States today, which is a broad landscape of insanity. But when you look at the health crisis in the United States today, the obesity epidemic, we need to get back to the root cause, the actual root cause. If I can change, it's Occam's razor, simplest explanation to equate to the larger good.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  If, if I can change one parameter and it exponentially reduces your risk of death, I would go after that.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  I wouldn't actually spend a lot of time chasing a bunch of other stuff. And we can, we can talk about how that relates in, in actual clinical practice. But the truth of the matter is if you're building healthy, lean muscle as a priority, you are indeed extending your lifespan, health span. If I look at someone who is insulin resistant, we get a fasting insulin on you. And we then proceed to do nothing. Don't change your diet. Don't change anything about what you do day to day. And we strategically build more muscle. Your fasting insulin will come down. It has to, by definition. Now, where does a GLP fit in? It's a tool. So I can talk to you about how those tools relate. But ultimately, I see a GLP as, as a mechanism to enhance muscle.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  But don't get there yet. I want to know about moti. You said the mitochondrial one.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  Monochondria. You're right. Moti.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  And then GH, don't forget about the copper one.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  Well, GHK is easy. I'll just put it to you this way. There's no evidence for systemic use.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Okay, because I keep on seeing girls and they're like

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Topical is a workhorse. No, no.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  They're getting injections and they're like, I'm like, why did your skin look so good? And they're like, oh, I take

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  It's my GHK copper.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  So will I look 10 years younger?

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  No. You will if you put topical. So I love GHK copper as a topical application for any, any invasive procedure of the skin. You violate the epidermis. So that could be like a skin pin, um, RF microneedling, even a, even a laser. Okay?

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  So GHK, uh, topical works

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Excellent human evidence. Yeah.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  More than the injection?

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  Well, the injection has zero. It's never been studied.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  So why is everyone taking it?

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  Because you told me that you took it and your skin looks amazing. You left out the part that you just did a full field, a blade of laser and, right? And you, you high dose omegas and you do IV vitamin C. Well, you want to talk about, by the way, making skin glow and heal, you do high dose vitamin C infusions. Okay? But that's the part they leave out. Why? Because they can't sell that stuff. That's not, but I can hustle you for some GHK. I can put it on my podcast and I get a lot of likes. There is zero. It, it, there's no debating it. And for some reason, someone will come up, maybe from this podcast and be like, no, see, here's the studies. Yeah, it's called topical.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  If I put it in a cream form, it's actually well studied. Most well studied, actually in aging women, 70 year old women, it, it's a very effective tool.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Where do I get it?

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  Compounding.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  What's the best one?

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  I, I compound it.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Can you compound them for me?

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Just the, just a topical?

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  I make lots of concoctions.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Do you use it?

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  So my, I mean, the workhorse is tretinoin.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Everyone talks about tretinoin.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Okay, what is that?

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Trentonoin's the oldest, uh, vitamin A, vitamin A. Uh, but this is really important. Yeah. So for the listeners, okay?

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  And for me, I'm listening.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  I know, I know. You have retinoids. You've heard, you know, everyone's like, oh, you need retinoid. No, you need retinoic acid. They're different. Retinoids are retinal like compounds. So you see those, you can get, uh, now there's some that are OTC over the counter. You get it at Walgreens. Okay? Retinoic acid, the pill form, Accutane?

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  You've heard of that, right? So the topical form, tretinoin, is pure retinoic acid. And so retinoic acid is, is the most potent, is the single most critical anti-aging skin health modality. Every single person should have a high quality tretinoin. It can't be, I, I can't make the same claims for the stuff on, on the counter at Target.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Where do I get it?

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  Uh, from a doctor's office.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  And they, they have to prescribe it?

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  And how often do you use it?

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  So I, I try to have every one of my clients build up to nightly application. Tretinoic acid, or, or excuse me, retinoic acid, tretinoin, at the concentrations that I would recommend. So for you, I'd recommend 0.1%. Okay. If you just started at 0.1%, it, it will fry your face. Now, I would submit that probably six to eight weeks of, you know, some redness, some flakiness, some real irritation. You'll get past that initial phase and it's glow up for life. But the way I do it in my clinical practice, because no one's jumping around to do it, is I start at 0.025 and then I progressively work up. So we start extremely light, have a great vehicle. This is, don't worry, I, I don't get kickbacks.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  We love Skin Better. Skin Better by far and away, I think, is the most powerful, potent skincare line, medical grade skincare. And so that starts at 0.025% uh, retinoic acid.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  So I can, can I buy that?

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, from a physician's office.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  So you can, you, you can prescribe it for me?

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I I think it's, that is, it, it's a really nice delivery vehicle. So it keeps your skin hydrated. It, it's, you could do the experiment like on your forum. I give you 0.1%. I mean, it, it's pretty irritating. It's, it's pretty harsh. It's only six to eight weeks. And so like, if a lot of dermatology colleagues of mine are like, ah, it's only six to eight weeks. I'm like, come on, really? You're, your whole face is flaking off, bright red or itchy. Not too many people sign up. But if you sequentially, if you go 0.025, 0.05, 0.1, and you work up to it, I usually with clients, it's like six to eight months. I'm, I'm in no hurry because ultimately, when you get to that 0.1 concentration, that's, that's the sweet spot. But I love that with topical, with topical estrogen.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Oh, that works so well.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I make my own little concoctions. It's a very potent, um, it's a powerful hormone for skin health and, uh, skin turnover.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  But can't it like seep into your bloodstream? The estrogen?

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

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• 1:08:24Speaker 01

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• 1:09:09Speaker 01

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• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Okay, so what if I just use the topical estrogen? Does that work without the?

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  No, tretinoin is the workhorse. Tretinoin, literally, every single person that wants to age well proactively should be on tretinoin. And I would argue, like, all the people like, oh, it's the GHK and all that stuff. And then they refer you to the link to buy. They're probably doing something else. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's just the truth of it. Now, people are gonna flip out and be like, oh, you're lying. I get this all the time. Well, how do you account for the millions of people that have been cured of X, Y, and Z with DPC? I say, that's great. If it works for you, that's great. I've used it in my clinical practice. I track every patient. This is part of being an expert. It requires documentation, data analysis.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  All of it.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  And interpretation, right? That's how you're an expert. In my practice, and really, if you pin people down, DPC is a 50/50. And last time I checked, flipping a coin is not... If I said, we're gonna do surgery on you and we'll flip a coin to see if it's gonna work, would you sign up for it realistically? I had someone tell me, I said 50/50, and they're like, so you're saying it works great? No, I'm saying it's placebo effect. There's a 50/50 chance.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  You know, this reminds me, have you ever seen Dumb and Dumber? When they're like, would you go with me? Yeah. But one in a million.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  So you're saying... That's what it is.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  So you're saying there's a chance?

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's the... That is the essence.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Of the peptide hustle. So you're saying there's a chance?

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  So you're saying there's a chance?

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  A 50-plus billion-dollar industry. That was 2024. 50-plus billion dollars spent on peptides for the hopes.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Of something.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  So you're saying there's a chance?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  Is a chance worth 50 billion? I don't think it is. But the tragedy is, people would rather take that chance than just do the basics up. Tretinoin, I mean, 20 bucks? I mean, it's dirt cheap. GHK, it's a nice theory, but again, GHK, copper, tretinoin, esterdial cream. Now, that, we're talking. And you'll see meaningful results.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  So, wait, guess back to the tretinoin. So then, would you put the 0.025 on every night?

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  Yes, for sure.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  Okay. Like, what would be the routine? Would I wash my face? Then put serums? How about the serum?

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, so usually, so the application of the Tret product, whether it's pure Tret or it's in a carrier vehicle, and then that's when you put whatever, serums, lotions.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Tret first, though.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  Beef tallow, butter.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  So you think beef tallow?

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  No, I'm being sarcastic.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  It's just outrageous. I mean, you stick your head in an ice bucket and then you put butter on your face.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Like, who is coming up with this stuff? And it would be one thing if, like, we didn't have tried and true proven. But, yeah, you want the not-so-secret secret. Every one of my clients, regardless of age. Now, a younger woman, for example, I would keep on 0.025, 30s into their 40s, unless they demonstrated more accelerated age-related change.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  So for every day, you'd wash their face, put that on?

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Evening, evening, right? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  Okay, and then you could put your serums?

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  And then?

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Or some moisturizer. I would always do a moisturizer on top of it.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  So, when? How often should we use the estrogen on our face?

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  It can be periodized, but on a daily basis.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Like, during the day or at night?

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  At night. Yeah, I would do it at night.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Not during the day?

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  During the day is when I would use whatever your standard regimen is. Typically, some type of moisture, some type of delivery vehicle. You know, a lot of these products have vitamin C, so on and so forth. I don't...

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  How about hyaluronic acid?

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  Complete clown show.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Topical hyaluronic acid is only matched by injected, right? Skin V? Have you heard of Skin V?

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  Allergan bought Skin V. It was well over a billion dollars. I don't wanna misspeak. Skin V is an injectable, just like your HA fillers.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  That you're supposed to inject into the skin to deliver hyaluronic acid. Being in Colorado, by the way, hyaluronic acid is a workhorse in my practice. Hyaluronic acid is hydration and volume. Think of it that way.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Right? So, its basic function is to pull water into the extracellular space. So, you get that nice plump hydration. And in Colorado, we're bone dry. So, it's huge. There is actually a technology that works so well. It's actually proven in large-scale studies. 200-plus percent increase in hyaluronic acid production. 212, to be exact. But it's a technology.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  It's called Exion. So it's a combination of radiofrequency and ultrasound heat. Have you ever heard of all therapy?

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  Think of it as kind of... It's a cousin of that. I wouldn't consider it a similar or modality. But the data around hyaluronic acid production is rock solid. We use Skin V in my practice. I'm free to say all this stuff, right?

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  People may throw fit. Skin V is a disaster. I've never once seen a good result. Hyaluronic acid is a workhorse for skin health. Again, so we use it... Think of this as even like, we'll use this technology. It's anywhere from a five to eight-minute treatment. My female clients will come in the morning of a social event. Because you get this immediate production of hyaluronic acid. So you get this nice kind of... It's a glow up. But it's a real glow up.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  You actually glow. So you get a nice little pink, a little plump. They go to their event, rock stars. But that's the technology.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  Okay, but wait.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  So then, just to be clear.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Topical hyaluronic acid. I am not aware, as a physician, of any study that demonstrates efficacy for topical hyaluronic acid. Because hyaluronic acid exists below the cell, outside of the cell. Okay? So, to cross an airtight, watertight barrier called the epidermis, think about that. It's kind of silly.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  So you're right, but it sounds good, so...

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  It does, yeah, yeah. And I was stressed, very importantly, hyaluronic acid. Collagen, elastin, hyaluronic acid. Those are the three most critical elements of skin health.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  What is it, collagen?

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Collagen, elastin, right? So you've got your... Collagen is your support structure. Elastin gives your skin that elasticity. And all these, obviously, decrease with age. And then hyaluronic acid. So, those are the three components. So, every product on the market will make some reference to those. But bear in mind, what is critical for collagen production? We know what happens when you don't have it. It's a vitamin, right? Vitamin C.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  So you said, high doses of vitamin C. What does that mean?

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  Eight to 10 grams.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Of what?

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Vitamin C.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  No. How?

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  Intravenous, intravenous.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  So, we should take... Where do we do that?

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Come to my office. It only took me like, an hour and a half to get here, so.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean...

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  It's not that far.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  That's not that... Right, I could just take a plane.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  I mean, I think a lot of... That's become kind of one of my... So now we veer into a little bit about what we do in the non-invasive aesthetic space. But vitamin C, people forget that that is, by far and away, the most potent element of collagen synthesis. That having optimized levels... I use it... I mean, it's been described in cancer treatments as well. But using pretty high dose is very powerful. People are gonna argue this. People are gonna throw fits that I'm saying this. But anytime we're doing an invasive procedure, so like an RF microneedling, energy-based procedure, we'll run a drip of high-dose vitamin C.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  And then what I'll finish off the treatment with is what we talked about is plus or minus PRP, but we use PDGF, platelet-derived growth factor. That...

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  That's the best.

• 1:17:47Speaker 02

  It's the only.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  Okay. The exosome people are gonna crap their pants, because we get such great results and we actually have no research to support it and we actually are printing money. No one likes to hear it. But I only... I'm really stressed in my practice. I'm only gonna use the things that have clear supporting evidence.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Yes, you still believe in RP? You still believe in PRP as a best thing?

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Um, well...

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  What's the difference? PRP or what's the other one you said?

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  So I always, in truth, I'm giving away all the secrets here. I add PDGF. PRP, platelet-rich plasma.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Platelets are Amazon trucks, okay? They contain a whole slew of growth factors.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  One of the highest concentration growth factors in a platelet is platelet-derived growth factor. So I just use... It's synthesized in a lab, what we call recombinant, pure PDGF. And I mix that with PRP. That way, there's always this debate around PRP in biologics, PRP, PRF, in that, as we age, is the quality of our platelets?

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Less? I don't know of any scientific evidence, one way or the other. But I don't take chances. Imagine this. PDGF recombinant, PDGF is 10,000 times more potent than PRP.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Wow. And this is for... When do you use this? For what?

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  So I will use it... My general sense of it is, anytime we violate the epidermis for any type of procedure, I'm gonna use it.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Do people use it? Is it common?

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Topically. Uh, it's... I think it's gaining more traction. But again, there's... What Instagram is, it's just a brilliant MLM marketing system, right? It's just a giant marketing scheme. You get... You're right. I mean, you get the right person. If Kim Kardashian says, oh, I use exosomes on my face, right? Guess what's gonna sell? Exosomes. Does that mean they do anything? No, not necessarily. So, but that's the part about Instagram that's...

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  What about if I just go to... If I just get, like, call my friend, my friend, Dr. Abe Malkin, shout out. He has a drip hydration or concierge MD, whatever. And I said, hey, can you come and give me a vitamin C drip? Would that be great for my skin?

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  I think so. I do it. Bear in mind, I do it more strategically.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Okay, give me an example. What should I do?

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  So like any, if you're getting a treatment with an energy-based device. So that's like a blade of laser therapies.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  What if I'm not doing that?

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  I don't see there being, there's not enough bang for your buck.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Oh, not enough bang for my buck. Okay.

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  So take advantage of, this is why, you're always looking for synergies, right? I mean, efficiency is the name of the game in my practice. Whether it's clinical, whether it's aesthetic, shortest distance between two points, still straight line.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  Least amount of resources. So if I'm going to invest in an energy-based procedure, we're doing RF microneedling, we're giving you a shot of energy, we're violating the epidermis. I'm going to put everything into your system that's going to facilitate a maximum tissue response.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Okay, that's why you're doing the.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  So input-output.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's why you say vitamin C, that's why you're saying PRPD.

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  PDGF, yeah.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  So on its own.

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  Put, slam it.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  What do you do? All this stuff? Cause you look like, you look good.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I'm.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  And you're a guy.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  I'm a geek about it, yeah.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do, I could tell you do a lot of skincare. You look very put together.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  No, I have a wonderful wife that tells me, like, she, she puts the things out in order and I just do it.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  We, again, this, I don't, nothing for, shout out to Skin Better. I do love their line. So I use the, the sequence, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  And what's the sequence?

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  The sequence is, um, I gotta think. So it's Alta Advance. So it's a, um, it is a vehicle for a vitamin, basically a topical vitamin application, but it's also very hydrating. And then.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  And you're not getting paid by saying this?

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  It's just, yeah.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  Nope. You want to know if I'm not getting paid?

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can go check.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  Just go check.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  No, it's the product line we use. And then, um, I have to, I can give you the whole, the whole rundown. But we do that in sequence. Now, they do have a topical HA product that I've been using. So I'm always open to things. I don't want it to come out as like really dogmatic and black and white, because it's not. I mean, the medicine is nuanced for a reason. There's a reason it's the practice of medicine.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Because there is.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  You gotta keep on practicing different things.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  That's the human part of it. And that's why AI will not replace doctors. Because one, AI is not compassionate above all else, but so and so forth.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Empathetic.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So, um, so do that, then to do a moisturizer and then, and then topical sunscreen, mineral-based sunscreen. So they have tinted, trust me, five years ago, if you said, would you use a tinted sunscreen, I'd be like, what are you talking about? But that's my go-to. So what you need is.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Why tinted? This color?

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  Just like, I mean, I'm pretty pale and so it gives you a little color. But, um, tinted or otherwise, but SPF 75, sorry, Paul Saladino, uh, ionizing radiation is still ionizing radiation.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  And, and the, the weathered look is out.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  Like especially for men. In, in Colorado, for example, there's been a big, I see a big shift with Trent. Now more and more men are coming in like, okay, I gotta do something. But the thing is, men and women just need to be starting much, much earlier.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  Start, literally start on a retinoid in your twenties. That's a true story for me.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  And that's a tretinoin.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  That's tretinoin. Tretinoin's optimal. That's what I would recommend. If someone comes to me and says, what do I need to do for life? So very low dose, it's again, age-related or decade-related.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  But tretinoin, tretinoin's the base. That's your nighttime hydrating moisturizer. And then a quality sunscreen, mineral-based sunscreen. That's what you need.