Episode 596: Personal Branding Psychology: Scarcity, Overexposure, and Protecting Your Value

We live in a world that tells you to post more, share more, show up everywhere, and constantly stay visible. But at some point, does more exposure actually make you less interesting? And when you have already built credibility, success, and status, could a little scarcity make your personal brand even stronger? We dive into this in today's episode of Habits & Hustle. I sit down with Hamet Watt to talk about Tom Brady, celebrity overexposure, and why I think there is real value in leaving people a little curious. We compare people like Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Keanu Reeves, and Rihanna, and get into why some people seem to maintain their allure while others can start to feel overexposed. We also get into the tension between doing whatever you want and protecting the value of your brand, why constant attention and validation can become a trap, and how scarcity applies far beyond celebrities. Whether you are building a personal brand, a business, or a product, there is a point where being everywhere can start working against you. What's Discussed: (01:02) Whether Tom Brady has become overexposed. (02:16) How scarcity and mystery can make someone more interesting. (04:03) Why a lower profile can sometimes increase your brand value. (07:47) The qualities that made Tom Brady so compelling in the first place. (09:40) How being everywhere can slowly dilute your appeal. (11:53) What it looks like to reach a point where you stop caring what people think. (13:00) Why high-status people may hurt their brand by playing in spaces beneath them. (14:23) Michael Jordan as an example of maintaining status without constant visibility. (20:02) How Keanu Reeves and Rihanna preserve mystery and intrigue. (22:39) The science of scarcity and why overexposure can hurt personal and product brands. Thank You to Our Sponsors! Magic Mind: Head over to magicmind.com/jen http://www.magicmind.com/jen and use code JEN at checkout. Momentous: Ready to try supplements that actually do what they claim? Head to livemomentous.com http://livemomentous.com and use code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. Kion: Visit getkion.com/habits http://getkion.com/habits for 20% off. Tru Niagen®: For supplements that are rigorously tested, third-party verified, and actually deliver what's on the label, head to truniagen.com http://truniagen.com AirDoctor: Head to AirDoctorPro.com http://airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE to get $250 off select AirDoctor air purifiers, including the 3500, 4000, and 5500 models. Plus, you'll receive a free 3 year warranty, an $84 value, and AirDoctor's 30-day money back guarantee. Find more from Jen Cohen: Website: jennifercohen.com https://jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen http://instagram.com/therealjencohen Books: jennifercohen.com/books https://jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements https://jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements Find more from Hamet Watt: LinkedIn: Hamet Watt https://www.linkedin.com/in/hametwatt/

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Oh, hey, Tony. Thanks for the intro. I'm Jennifer Cohen, and this is your weekly bonus episode of Habits and Hustle, where I share my honest take on the habits, strategies, and mindset shifts that help you build confidence, take action, and create a healthier, more successful life. If you're ready to think bigger and live bolder, this is for you. Welcome to Habits and Hustle.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  More exposure does not always make you more valuable. Sometimes being everywhere is exactly what makes people stop paying attention. I dive deeper into this in Habits and Hustle to talk about Tom Brady. Is he overexposed? Scarcity? And why the most successful you become, the more selective you should probably be? We also get into Michael Jordan, Keanu Reeves, Rihanna, and what they understood about staying relevant without constantly being visible. At some point, protecting your value matters more than chasing more attention. So let's dive in.

• 1:11Speaker 01

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• 2:37Speaker 01

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• 2:48Speaker 01

  Hello, everyone. Welcome to another solo episode of Habits and Hustle with me, your host, Jennifer. And I am joined today by the wonderful Hamet Watt.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Hamet is, thank you for being here. Hamet is a friend of mine. I've been friends with him for about 10 years-ish or so, right?

• 3:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Ish. And Hamet is acting as my foil. He's been a very good foiler so far. And we're just gonna banter about different topics today. By the way, thank you for being here, Hamet.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Hamet, I wanted to ask you a question on this. What do you think of Tom Brady? Tom Brady now is like everywhere. I used to like love him because he was kind of mysterious. Like you didn't really know much about him. He was kind of like, didn't really, you didn't really see, you saw him play football and then not?

• 3:42Speaker 00

  It's too much now for you? He's too much?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  I feel like he's like overexposed.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  He's a lot?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a lot. Yeah, he's a lot. He's a lot. Yeah, that's an inside joke between me and Hamet. He is. I mean, I think that there's something to be said for having a little mystery around you.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  I gotta give him credit, though. I mean, he looks incredible. You see that before and after, when he was in college?

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He looks, but he's looked incredible forever.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I'm not mad. He's single. He's got a, you know, mingle.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I think he's mingling just fine. That's not what I mean. I just think that there's something to be said for having a little mystery around you and cachet. You know, I think when you're everywhere all the time, it like takes your, like, it kind of like takes your...

• 4:30Speaker 00

  Mojo a little bit?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's the word mojo. I just feel like...

• 4:34Speaker 00

  It's kind of like when Michael Jackson started talking a little bit. You're like, oh, bro, you should have maybe just...

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Like, I just feel like you kind of like, the scarcity kind of like, I think when you're a little bit scarce, people are much more interested.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  And if you're always everywhere, like you lose some of that, you kind of lose some of that, like, mystery.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  I agree. I hear your point. I guess I think he's probably trying to monetize in this next phase. He's trying to win. He's the GOAT, so he's trying to be the GOAT now in the next phase.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  I don't think that...

• 5:03Speaker 00

  And he's gotta prove it.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  I don't really think he needs, he has nothing to prove, first of all. What does he have to prove?

• 5:10Speaker 00

  He's a competitor. It doesn't matter.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he's not doing this to be competitive.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  He didn't have anything to prove the last time he won a Super Bowl either.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't think he's out there. Like, I think it looks, he looks thirsty. Isn't that what the kids say?

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Like, I think like, there's something to be said for just being a little bit more low-key when you're at that level. Like, if you were just like a mid-range athlete, fine, I don't care. Do whatever you want to do.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  But when you have that kind of like high, like, high-status caliber, like, everyone like looks at you like you are like the pinnacle

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  of class.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  If you were his manager, what would you have?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  I would be like, I would say, dude, like, just maybe like stay home one night. That's what I'd say. Like, watch Netflix today.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Or like tonight, you know, like, maybe just like have dinner at home.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  But are you mad at him doing like the Kevin Hart, like the roasts and that kind of stuff?

• 5:57Speaker 01

  No, this is the thing. This is where I get really kind of, like, I'm gonna be talking from both sides of my mouth for a second, okay? Just bear with me. See, funnily enough, I think he has a very cute personality, too. Like, he can make fun of himself. He's self-deprecating.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  He's got like a nice way about him, which I don't mind seeing him. And he's like beyond gorgeous. I don't care about that. I'm just saying from a professional standpoint, like, point of view, like, if I was working with him, I would say like, kind of have a lower profile, because I think that's when everything kind of like rises from that. Your cachet, your likability, your, you want people to be curious about you. You want people to think like, I wonder this. Like, if you show everything.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  It's not as, it's not as...

• 6:46Speaker 00

  You think he's thirsty.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just not as, like, cool as, he should play it cool a little bit.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  But how old is Tom?

• 6:54Speaker 01

  I think like 48, 49?

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Maybe even younger than that. He still has a lot of career ahead of him. What if he wants to just be as big and bold as he's been in football on the next stage?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Look who you're talking about. You're the queen of bold.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  He can be as bold as he likes. I...

• 7:09Speaker 00

  He wants his own podcast. He wants his own TV show. He has some of it.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Well, he does the Fox stuff.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  He's like the Fox guy. Listen, I'm not the connoisseur on like the career of Tom Brady. I'm just saying from my perspective, I think, you know, to each his own, you know, do whatever you'd like. But I was someone who was like one of those people who was like a massive fan of his.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Who like thought that he was like, just like the cat's ass, so to speak. And it was because I didn't really see him everywhere.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  I've actually never heard that expression.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  You haven't?

• 7:42Speaker 00

  No. What does that mean?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  You've never heard the cat's...

• 7:45Speaker 00

  The cat's ass? I've never heard that. Personally, no.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Really?

• 7:50Speaker 00

  It's interesting. I'm gonna use it now. I like it.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  You also like the crack of dawn.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  The crack of dawn.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's a, it's a good segue. The cat's ass, it might be a Canadian saying.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  It must be.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 8:02Speaker 00

  I've never heard it.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  The cat's ass is kind of like, like, you know, like...

• 8:07Speaker 00

  I've heard the bee's knees.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  It's kind of like the bee's knees. The cat's ass is kind of the same as the bee's knees.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Is it a good thing? A cat's ass is good?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  I'm picturing it now, like the, you know?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  The cat's ass is like the best of the best. Like, you're the hottest thing in the world.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Like, you never heard that.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Never. Have you? Oh, I haven't heard it. That's a Canadian thing. So Tom was the cat's ass in your view?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  In my eyes, he was...

• 8:38Speaker 00

  Is he lower now?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Well, I just like, I'm not interested anymore. I lost my...

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Okay, let me ask you a question.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  I just lost the interest to like, when I would see him somewhere, I'd be like, oh, that's like, oh, like, I was like, wow, he's so, like, he was so, he seemed sophisticated, classy, a little bit mysterious. There was just like, he had like an air about him that I thought was really sexy.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  And now he's like doing all sorts of weird things with like Jake Paul. He did that, he punched him, or that whole stupid thing that happened.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  It made you less attractive to him?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Well, listen, it's not that, it's not, it's not the...

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Not attracted in that way, but less...

• 9:14Speaker 01

  No, no, no, but I felt like he, like he lost his allure.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  And his appeal to that level. So let's say he was 100.

• 9:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Now he's like 70.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  I had a buddy in college, really good-looking guy, but the minute he started talking, girls would just be gone. He would talk his way out of the opportunity to...

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Connect with women.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  Is that what you're talking about?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Well, no, I would still talk to him plenty.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  But what I'm saying is it went from a hundred to like, cause he's A, he to me has so many qualities that are so attractive.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  His discipline, his work ethic.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  His like resilience. His resili- but.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  His money.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  No, not his success and all that stuff is like a byproduct.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  But how he got his success and how he got the money and how he got all that like His, like to me, those are the qualities that are really attractive. Like he made himself who he is.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Like he wasn't the best football player in college.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  He was like, he was like, what, the number seven draft pick or whatever it was? And he made himself the GOAT.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Through sheer will, hard work, discipline, grit. Like all the things that I think are the most attractive qualities in, in a, in a person.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  But he's still running that same playbook. It's just in a whole new.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  Arena.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  No, it's, but so I agree. He's still who he is. That's, that's why he's still Super attractive and that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I think also And it's not like but, it's an and. The fact that he's doing all these like, to me, silly things that are beneath him. Like he doesn't need to be doing, like he's, these are silly and unnecessary. He doesn't need the attention. He doesn't need the money. He doesn't like, why now does he need attention on these silly things that are making him look Silly and that like a common influencer would be doing online? When like he's so much.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  He's above that.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  He's so much above it.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  So much. Let me ask you a question.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  That's what I mean. He's so much better than that.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  I agree with you.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  He's so much better.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  Let me ask you with a brand, with your brand hat on, right? So say habits and hustle. You're launching.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Or in general, a million brands.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Say you're launching, you're launching your own new brand and you've got a billion dollars in funding. And you have an opportunity to talk to Tom Brady about being a partner with him. And you have to price his before and after. You have to price him now. You say he's worth This amount, a hundred million dollars or whatever the number is. How would that be different from before he was doing all this stuff? Would it have gone down? Would it be the same?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  I think it's gone down ever so slightly.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Right? Ever so slightly.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  So if it was a hundred dollars then, it would be.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Ninety?

• 11:59Speaker 00

  That much? Ten percent down?

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Maybe ten percent. Again, it's this scarcity mindset like.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  Now he's everywhere.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  He's everywhere. Like every time I put on social media, he's like hawking something.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  You know, no, I mean, he has the noble shoes. That's fine to have sponsors. I don't mind that, but he's always, He's just always like there. Like it was more, it was, it was way more Interesting when you don't know where he's gonna be.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Like if he goes to a party, he'd go through the back door and you don't know, he's on every, You know, every Tom, Dick and Harry's party. He's not like, it's like there was like, There was no lure about him.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  Yes. He's no longer the cat's ass?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Cat's ass. Well, he's, again, he's still the cat's ass. He still is Tom Brady to me. He'll always be Tom Brady to me. But it's just less.

• 12:49Speaker 00

  So I agree with you, although what I will say is when anyone is taking a risk In going into something that's new and he's going into a new arena.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Wait, hold on, hold on. What's this new, this quote unquote new arena?

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Well, he's not a football player anymore. So he has to be known for, he has to create his own Place in the world, either as a broadcaster or as a founder.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  He is. He's a broadcaster.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  But all these things, he's showing up in all these places. I feel like he's trying to calibrate Where, what his next game is gonna look like. You know what I mean? So he might overcorrect a little bit, but maybe he'll eventually pull it back. But I give him credit for taking the risk because I know you're not the only ones talking about him being out there too much. I'm sure he's heard this. And in his mind, he might be like, yeah, I just gotta figure this out.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  I don't think he gives a shit. To be honest with you, this is what I, I don't think he gives a shit. Like I think he's just doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. Because he's Tom Brady and God bless him for that. Like Me having my silly opinion means nothing in the grand scheme of life to him especially. You know, like I think he just doesn't give a fuck and he shouldn't. He's got all the money in the world. He's everything going for him. I'm just saying from the outside looking in, it's like not as, it's not as appealing as it once was.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  That's a juicy topic, actually, Jen. Just meta, in a meta, like When will you be in a place, I'm using you just as an example, where you don't give a fuck?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  I don't give a fuck already. I'm never giving a fuck. Um, if I gave a fuck, I would be probably acting a lot more put together and much more. Uh, you know, uh, I would be doing a lot of things differently if I gave a fuck.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  So.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a, there's a real, I, I don't know. There's a, there's a real piece In just never giving a fuck. I've never really given a fuck though. Like, I mean, I don't, I don't care about how I dress. I mean, everyone's like, oh, you should be wearing this. You should be doing that. You should be, okay, I should, but I don't give a fuck.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  So as we're talking about Tom, we're just really commenting, but really He, your belief is he probably doesn't give a shit and he shouldn't give a shit.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  I think he's just like doing whatever he wants to do. And that, that to me, I do respect and appreciate.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  But I, I'm just, that's what I'm saying. I'm speaking from Two sides of my mouth because I have two, because of who he is, right? Like at that level, I'm like, I guess the bigger point for him is just like, when you've done what you've done and you are such, you're the, you're the best of the best on so many levels. Why are you playing, you're a shark. Why are you playing with minnows?

• 15:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  You know, like what are you doing? You don't need to.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  He doesn't give a shit.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  He wants to swim, he wants to swim with minnows.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  That's why, my question is why? What's the reason? Is there a reason? I'm just curious. Like, is it because it's fun? Is it because you want the validation? Cause you don't, you're like lost? Is it because?

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Did you see him on that Kevin Hart thing?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  I thought, I was, I was kind of impressed. I could tell he got some media training or got some comedic training. That was a stretch for him. That's a hard thing to do.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Well, he's done other things that are, he's done other comedic things that I've found to be with brands that I'm sure They really kind of like, you know, there's a lot of like.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  It's cringey on some level, but I give him, I give him credit for it because it's out of his comfort zone.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but now I feel like it's, it's, it's like, is his comfort zone, you know?

• 16:08Speaker 00

  And it shouldn't be, is what you're saying.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Well, I'm, he could do whatever the hell he wants, but I just think that Again, that's just my take. So you think, what's your take on it though? You think it's all?

• 16:18Speaker 00

  I'm not mad at him. I think, I agree with you that he doesn't give a shit and I kind of like that Even with all that attention, he still will power through. I'm sure there are enough people saying that.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  How about this? Michael Jordan. I'm gonna give another example, right? Michael Jordan is a, I, I don't care what anyone says is the best of all time. I don't, In basketball, I just think he's the best. I don't care. Don't give me this LeBron, the, uh, no.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  It's Joe.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Michael Jordan, yeah, it's, I'm like, I'm like obsessed with Michael Jordan. And I was obsessed with him, you know, at the beginning and I'm still obsessed. My obsession has not changed. And you know what? He's like not visible. He like made all his money. He doesn't, he doesn't give a fuck and he's just like, bye. I'm making all that money from Air Jordan. I'm doing all these things. I don't need to be out there doing silliness To prove my importance or my validation. He wouldn't bother. He wouldn't bother. He'd be too busy gambling at the blackjack table anyway.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  You know? I just think that's a great example. Like he is the best ever. He is the GOAT. I put Tom Brady in that same bucket.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  I feel like he should have followed the footsteps of Michael Jordan and just kind of like Been very, very discerning on what you're do, what he does, when he does it. And just kind of play that, like you don't need the.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  To me, that would be giving a shit. That would mean he's caring what people think and he's, oh, I gotta do what other goats have done, which is Play this downplay role and just be real, you know, private, which again, I'm not mad at Jay for doing that. That's just what he wants to do.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think Michael Jordan didn't do it because I think he just, I think he also didn't give a shit. And that's why he's like, I don't need the attention. I don't need to be playing with the minnows.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  But what if he wanted the attention? Like what if, what if?

• 17:59Speaker 01

  He doesn't need the attention. He got so much attention.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  He just, he was like, like to me, if you need that constant validation, what is that? What are you lacking inside? I think Michael Jordan was pretty obviously like From what I saw, have, did you see the, the documentary on it? It's like, I've watched it like 50 times. I love it.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  The Last Dance?

• 18:19Speaker 01

  The Last Dance. I love it. Like he knew in his DNA that he was the best.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Period. And, and the story. He doesn't need anyone to tell him he's the best. He doesn't need to go there and say, do you think I'm the best? And what do you think? Like he knows he's the best. And so that's why he doesn't need to go out there and look, see, look at me, look at me. Like he doesn't need to do that, you know? He's not putting on a Gucci leather outfit and, and like walk in the runway.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Did Tom do that?

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. You didn't see that?

• 18:48Speaker 00

  I missed that.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  How could you miss it? Was it Gucci? Yeah. How did you miss it?

• 18:52Speaker 00

  I missed it.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  And I also think both of them are like, they have the whole package. They have, they're beautiful, like aesthetically. They're talented, their grit, like they have so many of the same.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Like, not really. Michael Jack, Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan had a couple scandals.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  But nothing.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Nothing major.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Nothing too severe. Yeah. Like I just think he's like, yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  I, I don't know. I say for each his own. And I think, I think my sense is that He is trying to reinvent himself and he's trying to do it because he wants to, because he's single and because He still appreciates the competitive act of doing something great, no matter what it is. And I think he feels like him being in front, rightly or wrongly, is an important part of his next act. Right? If he's gonna be an entrepreneur, his way to add value as that is to be in front. Now, Jordan is an entrepreneur as well, but he's decided, hey, I'm just gonna be an owner. I'll be behind the scenes. And that works for him. But I think somewhere, Tom probably got some guidance that he needs to be pushing it, right?

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Cause that's what we talk to anyone that's promoting a brand. Hey, you need to be, you need to be visible. You need to be promoting it. And I think he's probably listened to that advice, rightly or wrongly.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  I agree with you and I still think you can still do that without Like doing certain things that are, I think unnecessarily uh, below your brand.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Yes. Who, what, what other talent out there has done a better job? Jordan is a good example, but what is another one in your view that has Sort of towed that line between too much exposure versus not enough?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  That's a good question.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Who's someone you'd wanna have on this show? That obviously you want Tom on this show, but who else would you want on this show?

• 20:41Speaker 01

  There's so many people. I'm trying to think. Let me see. I have, I have notes on these things.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  Okay. Males or females? Do you tend to?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Both. Like I think Madonna has overplayed her hand.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  Really? I barely see Madonna. I don't feel. I, I mean, other than the, uh, what was it? The, the, the World Cup?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  I used to be, I used to love Madonna. Yeah, like, see. I don't know.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  How old is Madonna now?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  She's like sixty-three.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think who's-

• 21:10Speaker 00

  Did you know that she dated Michael Jackson at one point?

• 21:13Speaker 01

  I don't think that's true.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Okay, that's a rumor.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Oh, you know who's amazing at it? I cannot believe I forgot about this one person.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Who?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Keanu Reeves. Keanu Reeves is incredible.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  Really quiet. He's really-

• 21:27Speaker 01

  No, but I find him to be so elegant and classy.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Agreed.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And, and it's give, and mysti, and, and like, just, he, he, I think embodies exactly what we're talking about. Someone who like, doesn't give a shit, and it does not need validation, doesn't need the spotlight, doesn't need any of that. I think he's the perfect example. And I'm not just saying that because of my whole thing with Keanu Reeves. I'm saying it because I-

• 21:55Speaker 00

  What is your whole thing with Keanu?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Well, you have to watch my TED Talk on it. You don't know?

• 21:59Speaker 00

  No.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  And you call yourself a friend.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  I, yeah, I gotta go look at this.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  But he does-

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Oh, another good one is Rihanna. She doesn't show up to a lot of things either.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, she's good.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  She's really good at like, keeping the mystery.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  You just like the mystery.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  I just think when you are like, there's, there's something to be said for, do you know like, you, like, when people were movie stars, or, or really like the celebrities of like back when?

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Like nineties, eighties, like, what kept them to be a celebrity, a movie star is that they were a little bit like mysterious? And you don't, you didn't know everything about them. They weren't like, they weren't like in your, barfing in your, in your, in your breakfast every day. Like everywhere you go, there they are again. Like, it loses such allure. I don't know how else to say it. Like, I think your value proposition just goes down. And with, with social media, I think it's ruined that part. And I think people who've done a really good job besides Michael Jordan is, Keanu Reeves does, has done an excellent job.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  He's probably the number one that I would say, in terms of besides Michael Jordan. There's probably other ones I can't think of. And like I said, like, I think Rihanna does a good job too.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  What's the measuring stick, though? Is it, is it-

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Keeping mysti, mystery.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Is it their brand value? Is it-

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, their brand value.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  You think that, so you think that a Rihanna and a Keanu, brand value continues to go up? And interest, whereas, you know, someone like a Tom Brady, kinda goes down a little bit because they're overexposed.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  He's, oh, yes. He's overexposed. It went down, but he's still, like, I don't think he lost it. Again, I want to make sure I'm very clear. I still think he may have had a slight dip.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  But it can, it's still pretty, it's, his, what do you call that quotient or whatever the-

• 23:48Speaker 00

  The brand value?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever it is, it's still pretty high.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  You know, it's a fascinating topic. One, you know, one of my partners is a, a former senior executive at Nike. And he was just talking about the Nike way. You guys, you may have seen Nike's off of its highs by some, almost a quarter of a trillion dollars.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  I'm not exaggerating.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  I know.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Over two hundred, two hundred plus billion dollars, it's down.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Why do you think this is?

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Well, there's been a lot of changes in management. People could say that there's a secular change in whether people need more shoes or not. But at the end of the day, and this is what I was talking with, with, with my colleague about, is there's something about the essence of a brand that has to be cared for in just the right way. It has to be promoted in the right way. It has to convince the masses that they need it, not that they want it, that they need it in the right way. It has to have the right amount of scarcity to the point that you're speaking to. You can't overexpose a brand and nobody wants it. So you might say, whoa, oh, why do you let this brand, you know, sell out all the shoes? Well, the fact that it's sold out and the fact that it's scarce is what allowed it to exist to begin with.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  So going crazy with and saying, oh, we got this much demand, let's fulfill all the demand. You actually have to consciously not fill all the demand in order for the brand to retain some of its essence. And that's kinda what you're talking to.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  With, there is a formula for it. There's a science around it. None of us know the exact science.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  But it's like, uh, understanding that as an individual, individual building your own brand, and then understand that when you're building a product brand is critical.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  I love that. Okay, we can wrap this, um, cause we got, we got lots of topics here. He's gonna, Hamei will join us again for another solo because, well, why not? Why the heck not?

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Why the heck not? So, uh, guys, please leave, uh, if you have not, I would really appreciate if you guys subscribe. If you have not already, and, uh, enjoy the rest of your day, your evening, your morning, or whenever you're listening to this podcast. And we'll see you again soon. Bye.