Episode 593: Jean Chatzky: Personal Finance Strategies for Building Wealth Without Overcomplicating Money

You can make a lot of money and still have no idea if you are actually financially secure. A bigger paycheck does not automatically mean you are building wealth, making smart decisions, or setting yourself up for the future. We dive deeper into this in Habits & Hustle with Jean Chatzky. We talk about the habits that actually build wealth, how much you should be saving, and why getting control of your money often comes down to a few simple decisions you repeat consistently. Jean Chatzky is a financial journalist, the founder of HerMoney, and spent 25 years as the financial editor of the Today Show. She has also made plenty of money mistakes herself, which is part of what makes her advice so practical. Her approach is about taking something that feels intimidating and breaking it down into choices people can actually understand and use. What's Discussed: (3:18) Why personal finance is usually much simpler than people make it seem. (8:25) Why automating your money can prevent some of your biggest financial mistakes. (18:05) The one thing everyone should do this month to improve their finances. (19:09) The money habit that separates people building wealth from people who simply earn a good income. (26:24) Why your 50s or even 60s may not be too late to seriously improve your retirement. (31:19) Why making kids spend their own money may be one of the best ways to teach them its value. (40:49) Why everyone in a relationship should have money of their own. (45:55) How everyday purchases like coffee can quietly add up to thousands of dollars a year. (1:03:48) The simplest way to start investing in 2026 if you have absolutely no idea where to begin. (1:08:58) Why the boring basics still beat most of the flashy financial advice people chase. Thank You to Our Sponsors! Magic Mind: Head over to magicmind.com/jen http://www.magicmind.com/jen and use code JEN at checkout. Momentous: Ready to try supplements that actually do what they claim? Head to livemomentous.com http://livemomentous.com and use code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. Tru Niagen®: For supplements that are rigorously tested, third-party verified, and actually deliver what's on the label, head to truniagen.com http://truniagen.com Kion: Visit getkion.com/habits http://getkion.com/habits for 20% off Find more from Jen Cohen: Website: jennifercohen.com https://jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen http://instagram.com/therealjencohen Books: jennifercohen.com/books https://jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements https://jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements Find more from Jean Chatzky & HerMoney: Website: hermoney.com https://hermoney.com/ Instagram: @jeanchatzky https://www.instagram.com/jeanchatzky/ Facebook: Jean Chatzky https://www.facebook.com/JeanChatzky/ LinkedIn: Jean Chatzky https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanchatzky/ YouTube: HerMoney https://www.youtube.com/@HerMoney Book: The Forever Paycheck https://jeanchatzky.com/books/

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Money has gotten way more complicated than it needs to be. Between investing advice, retirement accounts, 401ks, financial planners, and everything else competing for your attention? Wow, it can feel like you need a finance degree just to know whether you are actually doing the right thing. So today on Habits and Hustle, I'm sitting down with Jean Chatzky to make all of this feel a lot less overwhelming. We talk about why even successful people can still feel financially insecure, the habits that actually build wealth, and how to make smarter decisions with the money you already have. Jean is a financial journalist, the former financial editor of the Today Show,

• 0:48Speaker 01

  and the founder of Her Money. She is also one of my favorite people to learn from when it comes to investing financially, because she makes it feel very, very simple. Making money has never felt easier and more understood than speaking with her. Her new book just became a New York Times bestseller as we did the podcast, which was really exciting. So she made her own money mistakes, learned how to take control of the finances, and then spent years helping us all feel better about it. So now, let's dive in.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  So we do this thing on the podcast to keep us focused and like alert. We do these Magic Mind Performance shots. Have you ever had these before? They're, oh my god, they're delightful. In terms of like what they are, they're very good. It has like all sorts of like lion's mane, ashwagandha, turmeric, and it's very, these ones particularly have 50mg of caffeine. We have, like I said, we have the caffeine free. We have, people love them though. They're very popular.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Happy to try.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yes. I've had like three already today. I don't know if it's a good idea. I'm gonna have another one, but I'm gonna have a little bit. So we shake it, and then we just like do like a cheers.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Okay. Thank you.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Want to do it?

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Okay, here we go. By the way, we do have Jean Chatzky. I always say your name Chatzky.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Chatzky, like chat.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Jean Chatzky on the podcast, who by the way, is one of my favorites in terms of financial information, investing, planning, and we're gonna get really into her new book, which became a New York Times bestseller yesterday. But first, the shot.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Cheers.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, cheers. Thank you for being here.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Yes, it's my pleasure.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  I'm gonna type the phone. Do you like it?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  It's okay.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Listen, you can be honest. I don't care. I know, I mean, like, I really like them because they like, they really do work, and they keep me focused, and the ingredients are good. But you don't have to, it's not like a filet mignon. It's just supposed to be something that kind of like-

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Gets you going on a bit.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  Excellent.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  I am so happy to have you here. You have no idea.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  I'm very excited to be here.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  You are like, okay, so like, okay, first of all, you are the Today Show, you said for, well, how many years?

• 3:12Speaker 02

  25.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  25 years. You were there in-house. What was your title? Like your finance?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Financial editor was my official title.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  So I always thought you were, like, I asked you offline, like, the difference between you and Suzy Orman, because she's a actual financial-

• 3:26Speaker 02

  She's a financial planner. She's a certified financial planner, which I am not. I'm a journalist. I came up learning about this by interviewing really, really smart people.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Right. So you kind of got, you kind of gleaned the best information from the best people in the business, and you were really good at breaking down some, like, seemingly complicated financial things to like the everyday person to help them, basically.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  And I was doing it for myself along the way. I really learned on the job how to manage my own money. I wasn't particularly good at it when I started. I've gotten much better over the years. But this is a topic that people make so much more complicated than it actually has to be.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Really?

• 4:11Speaker 02

  It, it should be presented in a much simpler way, because getting it right, I love the title of your podcast so much, because it's all about habits.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Getting it right is all about good habits often repeated. But it's not rocket science. And if anybody is trying to make you feel like it's rocket science, they are probably trying to sell you something.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  That's a really, I like that you said that, because right now, I'm actually going through this whole thing about financial, like, do I need a financial planner? Because it's so daunting and overwhelming for me. I'm sure for a lot of people who, who are seemingly smart people, who are successful, like, if they don't know this stuff, it could be daunting. And you're and you're saying that, what's your, what's your take? Do you think everybody should have a financial planner, or you can do it, it's better to do it yourself?

• 5:08Speaker 02

  It's a matter of time. So I have a financial planner. I've had one for a really long time. I like having a second set of eyes on the full financial picture. I also, I'm really busy. I don't have time to pay attention to it and do it myself. But there comes a point in your life where you're making more complicated financial decisions, you're trying to achieve multiple goals on multiple tracks, and you get really busy. That's the point at which you probably need an advisor. Before that, you probably need some advice, which is, which

• 5:49Speaker 02

  is different. And you can get that advice from an advisor by just paying for an hour of their time. You don't have to put somebody on a payroll.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  I love it, because it, because people don't realize it's, it could get expensive, because they take a percentage.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Most these days work that way. They take a percentage of assets under management, and it should be around 1% or a little bit less. It gets, the more money you have, the smaller percentage they take.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Right, of course. And the more that, obviously, that's, that's how it works. Which is, if someone does want to go that route of getting a financial planner, what should they be looking for?

• 6:24Speaker 02

  They should be looking for a CFP, somebody who is a certified financial planner that makes them a fiduciary, which means they have to put your interests ahead of their own. They should look for somebody with at least five years' experience, in my book. They should know where the person came from. So financial advisors either come out of the world of investments, accounting, or insurance. And knowing sort of the background of that person is a nice way to line it up with your needs. And then, I think you have a conversation with three or four that you find through a short list of people that your friends are happy

• 7:08Speaker 02

  with, and you see if you can actually talk to that person. You need to be able to be as open and honest with them as you are with a doctor. If you're gonna hide information from them, and a lot of people hide information from their financial advisors-

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Really?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they're embarrassed about debt, or they're embarrassed about stupid investments that they made somewhere down the line. Like, people, people don't tell them everything, which frustrates the financial advisor. If you're not able to talk to them, there's nothing wrong with them necessarily, but they're not right for you.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Okay, so you started this podcast basically saying that it's not rocket science, it's not as complicated. What are some of the basic financial mistakes that people make because they are overcomplicating it? And what are the, what are the, some of the things that we can do that's super low lift and easy for everybody?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  So the nice thing about the financial world is that there's a lot of stuff that is automated. Years ago, I came up with sort of five things that you have to do over and over again if you want to be successful. They're all pretty low lift. You have to make a decent living. You have to spend less than you make, which is where people get in trouble, right? That's where, that's where they're swiping their credit cards too much. They're not paying attention to where their money is going. It's leaking in a whole bunch of different ways, and they're not getting ahead. They're not getting to the third step, which is you've got to save and invest what you're not spending, so that it is working for you, just like you're

• 8:43Speaker 02

  working for yourself. You need to protect your financial world with insurance, with an estate plan. Doesn't have to be a complicated one, but everybody should have a will, especially if you have kids. And I like to think that everybody needs some way to give back, because more money doesn't necessarily bring more happiness, but giving back in a way that is meaningful to you usually does. The, the nice thing about the system we have today is that most of those good decisions can be automated. You can automate paying your bills. You can automate putting money into a 401k, or an IRA, or an emergency savings account. And

• 9:25Speaker 02

  if you automate enough of those good decisions, they'll prevent you from making mistakes.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  And what is the number one mistake that you see people making?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  The most painful mistake, and it's it's a mistake that a lot of people are getting into more these days is debt. Debt is a savings killer, high interest. I'm not talking about a mortgage.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  You're not talking about it.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  I'm not talking, I'm not talking about a car loan for the car that gets you back and forth to work, or even a student loan. I'm really talking about high interest rate credit card debt for things that you don't really need.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Like, give me an example.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  I mean, people's needs are all over, all over the map, and I love to get judgy about the things that people need, or even the things that people want, because it's your money. I just want you to make conscious decisions about how you're using it. But subscriptions are, they add up really, really fast.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  They're, they're a killer.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  They're a killer. You know, online one-click shopping is really a problem for a lot of people. The kind of shopping that gets triggered when you go down an Instagram rabbit hole, and you have to have that and that and that and that, and you didn't really plan on buying those things.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  But that's basically where this, where we are right now in the world. That's what people are buying. Like, look at Amazon, right? Everything is a one-click thing.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  And, you know, you go to TikTok, and now you end up buying a bunch of stuff you don't need. How, so what, so because the culture has shifted and changed from, let's say, 25 years ago, or 20, 10 years ago, how, what's, what's the, what's the fix for that?

• 11:03Speaker 02

  You put up some roadblocks to stop yourself from, from shopping so quickly. The fix is really a little bit more time between you and the purchase, right? We used to talk about a 24-hour purchasing pause. Like, you would see something that you like, you gotta wait 24 hours before you buy it, which seems like a very, very long time for people these days. But taking your credit card number out of the search engines, so that you can't just one-click. Sometimes that's enough, um, space to just make you think about it again, which is what you're trying to do.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Setting up email alerts when the balance on your credit card gets higher than you want it to be. Some people find it's helpful to just not allow themselves to shop in the middle of the night when they wake up and they look at the phone. And, and, and they put the phone in the other room, which is, you know, a good habit, I'm told. I don't do it, but a good habit, I'm told.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  I'm told to.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  For sleep, for sleep as well. So I, I think you, you gotta put some guardrails up that you can adhere to.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  It's hard, especially because everything now, also, the other one, and you just mentioned it, is everything is on subscription now. So you don't even know what you're paying for half the time.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  I go through and I look at my subscriptions, like, every six months or so, and get rid of the ones that I'm just not using, or that I bought on some stupid whim.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that, we should all put that, that should be a guardrail that we all have.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Emails too. If you can get off the email lists, which I, I went through my phone the other day, it asked me if I wanted to look at all those email subscriptions, because I was cancel, I unsubscribed from one thing, and I got a little notification, "Hey, do you want to look at the other things that you're subscribed to?", which it had never done for me before, but I went down the list, got rid of like 50.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  That's a, a lot.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, I mean, because sometimes I want the 15% off, and so I sign up.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Of cour, I do, I mean, I, I mean, that's, I probably have more than 50. I shouldn't say that's a lot. I mean.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  It is a lot.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  It's a lot, but I mean, I, it happens with me too, because if, you know, the one, you know, if you're a first-time buyer, you get the 15%. And like, I have, most of my email, I can't even get through my email with actually legitimate emails, because my spam, my spam doesn't, like, doesn't catch them. Everything is that.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Everything is that, and then it rolls over into your texts. I've just started, as soon as I get the first text from them, I get the 15%, but then as soon as I get the first text, I just stop it.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  So that I don't get the texts anymore, because they're really annoying.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  How do they even get your information like this so quickly?

• 13:54Speaker 02

  You give it to them.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  But like, my phone number?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't, don't, when you sign up for, for something, they.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  I guess so, but then I, like, don't they, I guess, in very fine print, they're like, are, can we text you?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  And you don't even see these things, and then you get stuck with these things. So can we just talk about credit cards?

• 14:11Speaker 02

  We, we can.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Because right now, I mean, like, the, the Platinum American Express, it's $900, it's expensive. Do you think something like that is worth it?

• 14:20Speaker 02

  If you use the benefits. So I canceled the Platinum American Express. I had it for many years, and I canceled it because the lounge system and the other benefits with that card was not working for me as much as the lounge system with the Chase Sapphire card. So I'm using, I'm using the Chase Sapphire card, and I use Citibank's American Airlines cards. Why? Because I live in Philadelphia, and if you want to fly anywhere, you have to fly American. So that's where I try to group my benefits.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Chase built a fantastic lounge in the Philadelphia airport, much better than the other lounges. And so if I have to, like, hang in an airport, I'll use the Chase benefits. And Chase is also, I think you want a card that is going to give you some flexibility for other airlines, other hotels, other perks. Amex totally does that, because it has a lot of transfer partners. Chase does it, Capital One does it. You, you, if you're gonna, you know, upscale one card, you, you want to make sure that you can use the points in a variety of ways.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  So, because that was my question, what's the, like, I know you can go online, and you hear all these different reels and things about the Amex versus the Sapphire card, but it looked to me, because I'm going through this right now, that the, the Platinum American Express has much, much better perks. But if I shop it, if I shop, if I'm, if my bank is Chase, I don't live in Philadelphia. So people, most, and if you don't live in Philadelphia, you don't have that lounge, what would be the benefit, like, what is the benefit pro and con for these?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  So you, you, you should be basically going down the list of benefits and seeing which ones you'll use. Like, Chase rolled out a whole bunch of new benefits yesterday. I think the only one that I have a shot of using is that they took their DoorDash credit from $5 a month to $15 a month. So if you use DoorDash, add that up, that's $225 a year. That goes a decent, goes a long way to paying for the card. But you gotta look at all the things on the list and ask yourself, am I actually gonna use these things? And then you just make a decision about what is gonna pay off most for you. But most people really don't need both of those things.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  No. So do you think the American Express, the Platinum is overrated? Because I feel like everyone just goes and gets it.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  I, I, I actually don't think it's overrated. I just, for me, based on where I was living, I had it for many years. And then I decided, you know, to cancel it. I still keep Amex Gold. It's a lot cheaper, and some of the time I want to have an Amex. Like, there's some places where it, it just seems that, that having an Amex is, is valuable.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  All right. So overall, you're saying it, it really end up, at the end of the day, net, net, it depends on who you are, what your lifestyle is, where you live, and then base it around those particular perks.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  And most people should be paying for none of these cards.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Well, they're $900 a month.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  But.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  And so is Sapphire, it's like 800.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Exactly. But if you go one level below Sapphire with the Chase card, and Amex is, it's true as well. If you go down from Platinum to Gold, or if you go from Sapphire to, I think it's called Reserve, it's $95, and there are still some really good benefits. So the young people in my life who don't travel as much for work and are using, but still want to have a card that gives them miles and flexibility, have gone with that version of the Chase card, and the $95 very quickly pays for itself.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  I thought the Gold card was $395.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  The Gold might be 395.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  It's expensive. That's why I was like, if I'm paying 350 or 395 for this one, I might as well.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Do the other one.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and get the benefits. But literally, because you're coming on here, I'm like, literally dealing with this yesterday. I'm like, I have to ask you this question, you know? So what can I, okay, so let's, let's get back to, like, financial, actual hardcore financial advice. So if someone can only do one thing this month to improve their financial life, what should it be?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Go through their spending.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Look it, map it, map where your money is going.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  It's not fun, but it will give you control over where you want your money to go. And only once you know where your money is going, can you start making changes about where you actually want it to go. It'll give you the power to increase the amount you're saving, to bump up perhaps what's going in your retirement accounts. It'll show you where you have to cancel all those subscriptions. We have a program at my company where we take people through the process of doing this. And they, they free up thousands of dollars in a very, very short period of time because it's money moves so invisibly these days that we just don't pay attention.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  So what would be one habit that people who are building wealth are doing versus people who are just making good money?

• 19:58Speaker 02

  They're saving first and they're saving automatically. So people who are building wealth are actively saving for particular goals. And you know, those goals, one of them may just be the future, right? Retirement, whatever it is down the road, but it could be houses. It could be trips, it could be kids. They are, they are putting money away because really that's the only way to build wealth. You, you are, you are not using all of your resources. And then they're investing that money so that it's working.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  What are, okay, so the first question I have about that, what you just said, I've got two threads here. The first is, how much should people be saving based on the amount of money they make? Is there a percentage that they should be doing? Can you talk about that a little bit?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Sure. For retirement, for those long-term goals, at least 15%. Which if you're not saving anything, sounds like a ton. But it can include any matching dollars that you're getting from your employer. And it's what it takes to replace your, to replace about 80% of your pre-retirement income when you combine it with social security once you get to retirement.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  So besides putting it into a 401k, what else could we do with it?

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Well, you got it, once you've got it in the 401k, you have to invest it, right? So money that goes into a 401k these days is probably being defaulted into a target date retirement fund, which is a very diversified retirement fund that invests age appropriately for people, depending on when they're likely to leave the workforce. But besides a 401k, if you can do more, because there are limits and to how much you can put into these accounts. Open an IRA on the side, put money in a health savings account. If you, if you do that consistently and you don't use the money to pay for healthcare,

• 22:01Speaker 02

  it grows into a supplemental nest egg, a supplemental retirement account. 529 college savings plans for your kids. All of these accounts have tax advantages. So you put money in them, you get a tax deduction for, from saving that helps you now. And your money gets to grow a little bit faster.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  What gives you the best interest rate?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Stocks.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Well, right, so like, what would you say about that? Cause a lot of people are putting their money in stocks or real estate. Or what would you tell people who are doing that stuff?

• 22:38Speaker 02

  I would tell people that you've got to be consistently diversifying. So when we, when we talk about what's going to make a difference for people down the end of the road, the mix of assets that you have, what we call asset allocation, is responsible for about 90% of your results. So if you want to do this in a fairly easy way, when you're really young, most of your money should be in a diversified stock portfolio.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Really young being like what?

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Like twenties and thirties. You can put 90% of your money in stocks, maybe even more. Some people start with like all of their money in stocks. By the time you get into your 40s and 50s, you've taken that number down a little bit. Maybe you've got 70% of your money in stocks and you've got the rest in safer havens like bonds, fixed income. They're not having a very good time right now, but

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  You know, historically, they have, they've been safer. And as you get into retirement, you've got an even more, you've got more, less risk that you're taking category by category. So less stocks, more bonds and fixed income.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Well, you say in your book, right, the subtitle, you know, the new retirement strategy to spend more, worry less and never run out of money. How does that happen? We're living longer now than ever before. Women are living even longer than men. People want to live to 150 now. How do we do this? Because times are so different, we're living 20 years longer.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  We, we do it by making a plan for how we're actually going to use our money. So financial journalists like me, and I think the financial industry in general, we, we took our eye off the ball. And all that we talked about for many, many years was save and invest, save and invest, accumulate, build money for retirement.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  And rinse and repeat, basically.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Exactly. And we didn't talk about the fact that, oh my gosh, you're going to get to this point when the earning stops and you're going to need to make your money last the rest of your life. And as a result, people don't know how to do that. And many retirees are not spending, which is a problem because they saved for this purpose for decades. And now not using their money means leaving a lot of joy and happiness and experiences.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  You know, everybody's got their bucket list and these bucket lists are not getting checked off. Having a forever paycheck solves that problem in a number of ways. So the research that I did for the book looked at what happens when instead of having all of your money in a big chunk in a 401k, you take some of it and you use it to build a paycheck that will arrive for the rest of your life, no matter how long you live. And we can do that with investments and we can do it with insurance, annuities. Both of those things have their advantages.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  But what the research has shown is that people spend income. We spend the paychecks that we get because we know we're going to get another paycheck. We don't spend that big balance in the retirement account because it has become such a huge precious thing that we don't want to see that number heading in the other direction.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  And what happens for people, like is it too late for someone who are in their 50s or 60s? And they haven't saved anything yet?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  First of all, definitely not in your 50s. Your 50s, you're just hitting for most people, your peak earning years. You can make up a ton of ground. Even your 60s is, is not too late because the equivalent of, and you may have to just make a decision that you are going to work a little longer or that you are gonna downshift in terms of your expectations for what life is going to look like in retirement. But the equivalent of working just an extra six months is like putting 1% into your retirement over 30 years. It's really, really powerful because it allows you to delay social security.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  It keeps whatever you have in those retirement accounts growing. You're not pulling money out. Plus there are a lot of health benefits, as you know, to staying in the workforce. It's just, it keeps people connected, they get less lonely, they're, you know, still.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Having a purpose.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Absolutely, all the things.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Isolation will kill you faster than anything else.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Right?

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  What would, what would you tell somebody in their 30s or late 20s that, you know, they should start doing now that maybe they're not even thinking of or aware of?

• 27:50Speaker 02

  In your 20s and your 30s, your job is to accumulate, right? Your job is to get into that 401k plan. If you work for a small company or you work for yourself or you don't have one, your job is to set up an IRA and start putting money into it every single time you get paid. And your job is to not get overloaded with credit card debt because that will just slow you way down.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  That's the worst.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  That's the worst. I mean, you know, I have two kids, right? And so, uh, 11 and 13, and I'm very much in like, a very much an entrepreneur. I do a certain businesses and all the things. So they kind of watch and see what I do all the time and they've become quite entrepreneurial. My little 11-year-old, she makes nails and she's trying to like hustle them and sell them at school. You know, like, and my, my son, he's doing this whole thing with Pokemon. I'm sure you know all about this Pokemon thing, which is

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  It's a craze.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  What's, what's so amazing about Pokemon is I went through it when my son was 11 and he is 32.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Okay, and he's still doing it?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, well, it's still popular.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Oh, I know.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  By the way, I don't know if it, I think it had a dip and I feel it's come back again.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  But my point is my kid's, he's like doing this, he's selling this, he's doing all sorts of like things. How do you teach, like what would, how do you teach kids in your experience about money early? So they are aware of like the value of it and how to, and what to do with it?

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Well, two things. You Make some rules about how much of their money they have to start saving. So that they actually save it because the act of saving money is not fun. But having money saved is a lot of fun. Right? And so they have to see success. They can see it. You can open a bank account for them. They can dial in online. They can, they can see it grow. That's going to get them going.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  What do you mean? Like you should, like, I would say, like, get them, like, have them to have, like, open up their own bank account.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. But then not just open it up, but give them online access. So they can see, they can actually see the money working for them. But the other thing that you have to do is, and I learned this with my kids when they were young too, because they, they worked and they babysat and they had money. And their money is much more valuable to them than your money.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  So you have to put some restrictions in place so that they are forced to spend some of their money.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  You know, like, I remember vividly going to a store. My, my son, who grew up and now works in football.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  He works, what does he do now?

• 30:47Speaker 02

  He produces, um, he's one of the producers on New Heights, the podcast.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  The, um, Kelsey Brothers.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Oh, the Kelsey, okay, yeah, yeah. One of the producers. How many producers does that podcast have?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  It has two.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  So he's, you know.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Okay, he's one of the two.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Um, he, but anyway, he wanted a jersey. He wanted a, a, some, some jersey that was $70. And I had said, bring your wallet when we went to the store. And he, he picked out this jersey. He said, this is what I want. I said, great, go buy it. He said, well, I don't want to buy it with my money. I want to buy it with your money. I was like, well, that, that is not happening today. And he didn't want it quite as much because in his mind, it wasn't just $70. It was six hours of babysitting at that point, you know, it had, he had done the rough translation to figure out how much of his time it was. And that's really powerful.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that is that, that to me is the best way to teach any child about money is when you make them use their own money.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Period. Full stop.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  That's where I think a lot of parents go wrong with allowances. They give their kids money, sometimes for chores, sometimes not, but they never force them to use the money.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Allowances have to come with a list of things that you're no longer going to buy. And that list should get bigger as the allowance gets bigger so that once kids go to college, they can actually handle a month's worth of money without blowing it.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Have you noticed that kids these days don't babysit anymore? They don't have these like side jobs, like they're not working at like the McDonald's. Like when I was young, at 13 years old, I, 12, I was babysitting, like, I was babysitting. I was working at, I was like finding these like little jobs at like the McDonald's of the world. You know, the bakery down my street, you know, like this, you know, but because like I was in the workforce because it taught me like how to earn money. When I make money, then I buy things. I feel in a genera, like this generation doesn't do that anymore.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  I, I.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  No one's, no one's mowing the lawn. Like, I don't, in my neighborhood, I don't see any children mowing the lawn. You have someone coming as a gardener and it's not just here. It's like, it's like a thing.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  No, and I, I think it's, I think it came about when parents started to feel as if their kids needed all their time for school. Or sports, or the resume building activities. I mean, I think actually having a job is a resume building activity.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  One, by the way, 100%, I had this guy on my podcast. He was like the dean of Wharton many years ago. Because there was this whole thing, private school versus public school, how you should take the kid, put the kid into a private school for a feat, to be a feeder school, to get into an Ivy League, all the things. And I'm living in LA, right? So I'm, I'm surrounded by more money than God here. One person's richer than the next.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Right? And all these people are fighting for those like private school placements and this is why for the feeder schools. I'm like, listen, to me, in my opinion, like if you're, if you're smart and capable, you can go anywhere. So I, I, I got this guy on my podcast and I literally asked him all these questions. And he said to me, it's all a bunch of nonsense. He's like, if your kid is smart and capable and doing all these things, it doesn't matter if they're going to the public school, if they're going to Harvard, Westlake, or that's our school. It, it, they actually are, they're, they actually will benefit by going to the public school versus that school and having a job.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  And like learning how to actually like function in society. And so I said, I'm like, he's like, I have three kids. And I said, okay, so where did your three kids go to school? He's like, they all went to public school.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  And I was like, thank you. My job here is done and goodbye. Because I think that there's like this misconception, like, you're right, like these parents are like, oh, the kid has to spend 24 hours a day on their schooling. And they should only do activities that are for, I'm like, what are you talking about? You working at McDonald's and keeping that job for two years looks way better than you doing anything else.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. I, I, I agree. I, I think that there are a lot of ways that we've sort of lost the thread, lost the, but.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  No, I think that's a big, no, I think, and it's, it's like you can, we could do a whole other podcast. I've done many podcasts actually on this topic. But I think it's important because it feeds into money, in my opinion, and like values and success and economics and all these things. If no kids now are like mowing the lawn or doing their, you know, having a little side hustle of painting or, you know.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Working as a camp counselor.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Or a camp counselor. And all they're doing is like, I don't even know what they're doing. It's, to me, it's like you, you lost the plot.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  And you lost the ambition and the.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  And the drive and the, all of it. Like, I, like, I, I say to my kids, you want that matcha or you want whatever that Bobo drink is, go buy it. I'm not buying it for you. You want that new shirt? Go buy it. Like, and, but now they're conditioned to do that.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Right?

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Right? And so it's about conditioning these kids to do this.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  And I'm sure they take some pleasure in knowing that they can buy it for themselves, that they can do it for themselves.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  It builds self-esteem and confidence.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Because it's showing that you actually are capable and competent and that you have self, like, you have like the, the power and the ability to kind of do these things on your own.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And be, um, being out there, I was thinking back, my first job, besides being a camp counselor and a babysitter. I worked at the local sporting goods store in Wheeling, West Virginia. That's where I went to high school, public high school, Wheeling, West Virginia. And it just, you know, helped people fit sneakers.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  All day. It was fantastic.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Because you learn how to talk to grownups.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  You learn how to, I mean, in those days, we learned how to manage money and count everything out of the cash register. But it, it, it helps you learn how to get along in the world.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  It's like interacted, like how to like can like interact with people. Again, a lost, a lost art right there.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  People don't know how to do that, which again is a whole other podcast we can get into.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  I'm all about finding sustainable ways to optimize performance. The kind of work that actually moves the needle on how you feel and function. And that's why I really need to tell you about ProLon's five day program. Most of us are chasing quick fixes that never get to the root of the problem. And the result is sluggish energy, brain fog, and bodies running below its full capacity. But ProLon changes that by triggering your body's natural repair and renewal process at the cellular level. It's not a cleanse or crash diet. ProLon is the only patented fasting mimicking diet developed at USC's Longevity Institute.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  It's a plant-based program with soups and snacks and drinks that nourish your body while keeping you in a fasting state. The benefits are backed by science, deep cellular rejuvenation, fat-focused weight loss, no injections, and better metabolic health and energy. Plus improved skin and even reduced biological age. And here's my favorite part. It's a complete reset in just five days. No willpower, battles, no extreme restrictions, just a structured plan to let your body do what it's designed to do. Repair, renew, and optimize. And right now, ProLon is offering 30% off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  When you subscribe to their five day program, go to prolonlife.com/jennifercohen and use Jennifer Cohen to claim your discount and bonus. That's prolonlife.com/jennifercohen and use code Jennifer Cohen.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Let's talk about another group of people, women. Because I think this is also an issue with women. Women who, there's a few things, right? I think that women who are on their second life, let's say, and they're, they got a divorce. And now they don't know what to do with money because they had someone who took care of it for them. Like their husband was taking care of all their money. So now they're at a loss, right? What is the biggest financial mistake that actually women make? Let's start there and then we can move on from there.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Look, I think the biggest financial mistake that anybody makes is taking their eye off the ball. And I think younger women are making it much less frequently than people my age made it. I mean, we get a lot of women coming through our coaching programs who, at her money, who are going through divorce and are trying to figure it out and move forward. And they're learning on the fly. You're better off learning how to manage your money when you're not in crisis.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  It is a big mistake. I, I get why it happens that in a couple where you are trying to get everything done in a day, you not, you can't all do everything. You have to divide and conquer. These are traditional roles, but they're not traditional roles that serve women. The other thing, and this, this was something that, that really came to the fore as I was doing the research for this book, is that we, as you said, we live longer. We also earn less. The, the salary gap has been stuck, is not getting better.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  We are still the ones who take breaks from work to care for kids, to care for older parents. When we get to retirement, the balances in our retirement accounts are 40% smaller. And then we have to make them last a longer number of years. We've got to focus on planning for our own retirement. What do we want? When do we want it? If we have a partner, and fewer and fewer people have partners these days. But if we have a partner, we have to talk to that partner about what retirement looks like so that we can set ourselves up with the right paycheck and the right system that will give us those things that we want and need.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  I, I clipped a, I clipped an article out of the Wall Street Journal like 15 years ago. The headline was, "He Says Maine, She Says Florida." And it was all about retirement and a couple that had not talked about it and realized as they got really, really close to it that they were on completely different pages. And it happens all the time. We need to sit down and talk to the people in our lives about how we're gonna enter this next phase and, and pay for it and what we actually want.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Right. If someone's a spender and someone is not, another massive issue.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Right? How do you even, where do you find the happy middle? The, the middle ground? I know you're not a clinical psychologist, but I mean, this is really, that's a big problem.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  It is, it is a big problem. I think you find the middle with financial autonomy for both people in a relationship. Right? And, and this is-

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Does that mean keeping your own bank account?

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think everybody should have their own bank account, honestly. I think there should be one for the house. And people should have some money that they are able to manage on their own. Because otherwise, look, I don't want to ask my husband's permission when I go buy something. I'm not, first of all, I'm not asking permission. But second of all, it's, it just starts to feel very parental. One person has all the power in that case. It's not, it's not a system that works. Yeah.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Well, okay, but then what, what do you, like, so someone, it's, it's easy with, for you or me to say that because we have a career and we, we've structured our life not to be in that predicament. And I think every woman should, but that's a whole other podcast in itself. What about women who don't have a career, who've relied on that husband or whatever partner to basically do all of this? And they, they have no money of their own?

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Well, they should set up the system so they have money of their own. She should still have an account of her own. It should be funded automatically with a chunk of money that comes out of the paycheck. Because not funding that is like saying what she is doing and taking care of the family has no value.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Which we know is not true.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting. So you're saying that there should be some type of fee, like, or some kind of fee or salary put, placed on someone who is taking care of the home? Because that is technically a job too.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  I don't think we want to-

• 43:59Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know if we want to define it as a fee. But I, I think, look, everybody needs money of their own. Everybody needs a chunk of money that they can manage. And so you sit down and you look at whatever's coming in each month. You figure out what we need for the household expenses, what we need to save. Those things come first. And then the, the breadwinner gets some money and the person who's saving at home gets some money. And they get to manage it as they want to manage it.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  But I don't think that's such a bad idea.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  No, I think it's a great idea.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  If I'm, if I'm staying at home, cooking the food, buying the groceries, picking up the children every day, doing all those things, that is technically a job.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Right. And by the way-

• 44:44Speaker 01

  I should get paid for it.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  There, yes, and there should be a life insurance policy on you. Because if something were to happen to you, it's gonna cost that guy money, that person money to replace all of those things that you do.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because you know, honestly, like, side, side note, you know, because I work like a dog and I'm sure you, maybe you work like a dog too. It's costing me a bloody fortune to have like help, like a nanny and au pair, all these things.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  I mean, it is literally, it's, it's like not cheap.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  I'm literally working to pay for my, for my, for my nanny or for my own. That's literally what's happening. So like for someone who's staying home doing that job, they should be compensated for it. And if having the person who's like the actual mother or father or whatever doing a job, it's even better. Because they care more. That's just the way it is, right? And they like put more into it. So I think that job should, that, that should be, that should be like a six-figure job. And by the way, they are six-figure jobs here in certain places.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  In certain places, they are.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  You know? So I think that's a really good idea. And that's how you can get your own, start building your own wealth.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Well, because there's no law that says with this money that's in your name that you have to spend it. You can save it, you can invest it, you can do whatever you want.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  No, I see people, I see women all the time asking permission to like go buy this or go buy that. I also think it's important to be, you know, to be fair, for, I feel like women don't even, a lot of times, not all women, they're not paying attention. They just, they don't even look at prices of dresses or things. Like I think being conscientious of how much milk costs and how much a bag costs and how much shoes costs is really important for you, for yourself too.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  I think it depends on-

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Don't put your head in the, in the mud.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it depends on how much money you have, right? I mean, I think people who are living paycheck to paycheck, they know exactly what everything costs.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Right. So we're trying to, I'm trying to like do a gamut here. I'm not trying to be, I don't want to assume someone has a lot of money or not. But people who listen to this podcast, it's all over the map. You've got people who are very wealthy probably and people who are, you know, just starting out. And just, so I want to make sure I'm covering for everybody.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  But, but you asked me at this, at the top of the show, what's the one thing people can do?

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  They can pay attention to where their money is going. And that's gonna teach them what things cost.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Do you know where a lot of the money's going, honestly? To matchas and, and coffee. Like, people are paying 10, 20, $30 a day on buying coffee. What does that equal if that's doing that? $30 a day, because let's say you buy one in the morning, you buy one in the afternoon, plus tax and all the things. Let's say you're up to 25 bucks a day.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  25 times 7 is-

• 47:29Speaker 02

  150. 175.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Right? 25 times 6 is 150. 25 times 7, 175.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  At, at times 4 is-

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Let's do the math right now. Okay, and I'm telling you, this is, and I'm gonna tell you why I'm doing this. Well, you can, you can, 25 times 7, let's just say. Okay, they're buying, they're buying $25 worth of coffee a day, times 7 is 175, right? Times 4, that's $700-

• 47:57Speaker 02

  A month.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  A month, times 12. That's now $8,500 just like a year.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  And there was a very famous book by David Bach, guy named David Bach, who's a friend of mine. They, they talked all about the latte factor.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Right? And this was when coffee was $5. It, it's-

• 48:15Speaker 01

  It's stupid. I won't do it.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Money slips through our fingers in two ways. It's the little things that we buy all the time. And it's the big things where we should really rein it in a bit. And making choices about I won't do it, or I'm going to. I mean, we make, we like Starbucks, we make it at home. You know, those, those kind of things give you the freedom to spend your money in other ways. I'm not gonna tell somebody if their one coffee is the thing that like gets them through the day. I'm not, I'm not gonna say you can't do that. What I will say, and I think what I've said for a long time is you gotta choose. Like, we can't have everything.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  So, your money is yours to do with as you want. But you should be making choices that are going to make you the most happy.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  I just think that I, I have a problem with people who are just frivolous for no reason, right? Like, to me, like, you can easily make coffee at home that's just as good and save so much. Like, to me, the prices of the coffee have gotten to be so outrageous. It's in self, it's like, I'm offended by it.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  I, I, I'm offended in some restaurants lately.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  And I'm offended by restaurants too.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  I went to get, you know how much a salad is now with like protein?

• 49:36Speaker 02

  With stuff on it.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  With stuff on it. I went to, I hate to say it, I like, go there a lot. I went to Pure Vita. Do you know what this, you know, Pure Vita? Okay, it's a very popular restaurant. They started in Miami, now they're all over the place. I get this Greek salad with like, uh, like, with like raw tuna. It was like thirty six dollars. And I was like, this much protein?

• 49:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  I'm like, is this like absurd? And I mean, anywhere you go now, even like Sweet Korean, I'm paying twenty five dollars for a salad. Like, it's, these prices have gotten out of control.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I, I feel the same way. I, I have trouble with entrees that are more than forty dollars. It just, it just, even.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  It's crazy. Fifty seven, I went out for dinner the other night, fifty seven dollars for salmon and some vegetables.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, crazy. It's crazy.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Who can afford this?

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Well, that, not many people, right?

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Right, and this is why people are going into debt, though.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  It's why people are going into debt. It's why people are saying we're not going out to dinner. It's, it's why people are so, I mean, if we're gonna dig into it, it's, it's why people are so upset about the economy in general right now. Because things have become, um, I mean, I, I don't live here in LA, but I filled up a car here recently.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  You don't want to get me started with this. The, the gas situation is mind blowing. So unless you have an electric, unless you have a Tesla or like, like an electric car, you're spending a hundred and twenty dollars a week just on gas, uh, just filling up your car.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Which is, which is why, for me, it all comes back to control, right? We, we have, we only, we're earning a certain amount of money. You're helping people earn more, which is amazing, but we, we.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Not really, I'm trying.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  We, we have to make sure that we're making good choices about how we're managing that money.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  What are we, Jean, like, what are we supposed to do when you go, you, that, we, there's like, it's kind of like this oxymoron. It's, it's kind of like this catch, catch twenty two. People are lonelier and more isolated than ever. And so the way that people socialize is they meet for lunch or dinner or whatever they do. Like, people socialize over a meal. Now, it's too, it's too expensive for most people to go eat out on a regular basis, so then they stay home. So like, even groceries are absurdly expensive.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  They are. Go for a walk.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  I mean, that's what people, that's what.

• 52:02Speaker 02

  That's what people are doing, right?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  They're going for walks.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Go for a walk. Walk the dog.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, go for, I mean, how many times do you walk around the block at this point? Like, I mean, do you know what I'm saying?

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I, I.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Even a workout class is thirty bucks.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  I know.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  My, my Equinox gym membership is four hundred dollars. Like, these prices are not sustainable for regular people. Like, unless you're making a ton of money, people are struggling, or they are in debt.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  People are struggling. There's, there's absolutely no question.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  And it's not just LA.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. It's, it's not just LA. It's, it's everywhere. That, that wages, we're, we're in this period where wages have not kept up with inflation. And, and it's been twenty years. We had a slight bit blip around the pandemic where we, where, where wages moved ahead. But for pretty much the last twenty years, wages have not kept up with inflation, which means your dollar is buying less and less. And we're seeing it and feeling it more now because of everything that's going on politically. Prices are, are, especially at the pump, are going way up.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  And this is all happening at a time when we have more responsibility for our retirements than any generation that ever came before us, right? Gen X, and I sit right on the bubble between a boomer and a Gen Xer. Gen X, Gen Xers have no pensions. Like, very, very few Gen Xers have the pensions that parents had, which means it's on us to make sure that we save enough for our futures. And now we've got all of these social security fears to add on to that. Now, I, I think social security will be there. I think that the government won't fix it until the very, very last minute, because that seems to be how our government likes to behave.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  But we have to pay attention to this. The good news about the retirement system and the 401k system is that about two decades ago, in, in twen, in two thousand and six, there was a change in the law that allowed employers to automatically enroll people in 401ks, to automatically bump up their contributions each year until they were maxing out, to default them into investments that were appropriate. As a result, we've got more 401k millionaires than we have ever had before. Like, the amount of money in these retirement plans is enormous. But when you get to retirement, you have to do it right.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  You, you don't get a do-over on this. If you, if you don't pay attention to it and don't approach it strategically, you're gonna miss out on, on happiness. And, and even health and longevity, like, having a, a strategy that gives you a paycheck for the rest of your life has been shown to improve how long you're gonna live, how healthy you're gonna be, how happy you're gonna be. It, it's, it seems like a really, really small thing, but it makes a very, very big difference.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Hmm. Okay, here are some more questions for you. Ready?

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  All right, these are gonna be more like rapid fire. This is like a little bit of the.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Lightning round?

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of, all right. Rent or buy?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  I, I don't wanna give you an it depends answer, but I'm gonna.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Don't give me, I don't want the it depends.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  In, in.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  But that one I'll let you give me.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  In pretty much every major metro area right now, renting is the better economic decision. However, when you buy a house and you pay down a mortgage, you end up with this supplemental pot of money at the end of the road, and you can use that money for a lot of stuff. I get asked a question about long-term care insurance all the time. Should I buy long-term care insurance? And long-term care insurance is really, really expensive.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  If you've got a paid-off mortgage, that's like having a long-term care policy.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Really?

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, because you can live in that house, or you can sell that house and go live in assisted living if you need to.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Okay, so rent or buy is a depends answer?

• 56:16Speaker 02

  It kind of is.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Okay, debit or credit card?

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Credit card if you can handle debt. If you pay it off every month, credit card, no question.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Pay off debt or invest?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  That depends on the interest rate on the debt. So if you've got twenty five percent on a credit card, pay off that credit card. If you've got five percent or four percent on a mortgage, as many people do, invest.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Okay, Roth or traditional 401k?

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Both.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Both?

• 56:51Speaker 02

  When you get to retirement, you wanna have different buckets of money um, that you can pull from as your income roller coasters through retirement. The younger you are, if you can afford to put money in a Roth, put it in the Roth, you're never gonna have to pay taxes on it again.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Really? Okay, good to know. Lease or buy a car?

• 57:12Speaker 02

  Buy.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Why?

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Buy used and drive it into a ground, into the ground. Cars have gotten way too expensive. I haven't bought a new car in a really long time. We buy certified used cars and drive them till they die.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  That's a good idea. What, what kind of car do you drive?

• 57:28Speaker 02

  I drive a Volvo, cuz I'm like.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Safe?

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Suburban mom.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  That sounds perfect. I love it, okay. Uh, joint or separate bank accounts in marriage? You kind of said that.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, both.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Both. Separate and then a joint for like household items? Okay. Allowance or no allowance?

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Allowance as a teaching tool, but make sure that you're using it to buy stuff.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Love that. College fund or retirement first?

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Retirement.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Really?

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Why?

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Because there's financial aid for college and there's no financial aid for retirement.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Good answer. Pay off the mortgage early or keep investing?

• 58:03Speaker 02

  I like the idea of having a paid-off mortgage as you go into retirement. I think it gives you a lot of room to breathe and be flexible. By the numbers, particularly if you've got a low-rate mortgage, investing is the right thing to do. I paid off my mortgage.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah? Okay, what about, uh, well, I said, some of these are where we kind of touched on, but financial advisor necessary or not for most people?

• 58:28Speaker 02

  By fifty, everyone should have a financial checkup with a financial advisor. Whether you wanna keep that person around for the long term is a judgment call.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  How many credit cards is too many?

• 58:44Speaker 02

  I don't wanna show you my wallet.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  All right, let's take the business cards off the table, right? We're not counting your business cards. Most people probably just need two. They need one that they're gonna get all the points on if they're doing points, and they need one with a lower interest rate for a purchase that they might have to pay off over time. But I would say, once you get past like, three or four, you've got too many. And nobody needs the store cards.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, nobody needs it. And also, who's using the Discover card? Or the Mastercard? Does anyone use the Mastercard?

• 59:20Speaker 02

  I have Mastercard.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  For what?

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Well, my, my, my Citibank card.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Is Mastercard?

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Is a Mastercard. My, my American Airlines card is a Mastercard. So it depends on what program you're in.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  But why, like, what's?

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Why is it a Mastercard?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  No, no, like, what's the benefit? Mastercard or Visa?

• 59:36Speaker 02

  They're the same.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but no, it's, isn't, is it? I feel like Visa is like, kinda synonymous with like, Kleenex for like, tissues. You know what I mean?

• 59:44Speaker 02

  No, I think it's, you've been with.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  I've never heard of anyone who uses a Mastercard anymore.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  I use it all the time.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Really?

• 59:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, because.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Jean Chatzky uses a Mastercard?

• 59:52Speaker 02

  Well, and I use a Visa, right? My Chase Sapphire Reserve is a Visa. My Citibank, American Airlines card is a Mastercard. They're, they're synonymous. It just depends on where the bank lined up.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so I guess my que, I said, I asked you earlier about the Amex Platinum, but like, what is, Mastercard, Visa, or what was the other one? Or American Express?

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Which one is the best for business?

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Depends what you're trying to, what you're trying to do.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Make money, save money, don't spend money?

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  My business card is also an American Airlines card, because I travel a ton for business and I fly out of Philly. All right, and so that's what, that's what I need. You, you gotta sort of look at.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Whittling down this credit card thing? I'm trying to figure this out.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  You gotta look at, at the benefits. But Mastercard, Visa, same deal.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Okay, one money rule you think is probably outdated by now?

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  You know, I was talking about this with my son-in-law, and I think it's outdated and really bad advice right now, which is, sometimes realtors will tell you to marry the house and date the interest rate. Like, date the rate on your mortgage, like, because you can always refinance.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  I think people who took that advice are in a lot of trouble as, as mortgage rates start popping.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Well, they're really high right now.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  They're really high, and some people think they're going higher. Watch out for adjustable rate loans right now. Really see if you can, unless it's like, even if it is, unless you know that you're moving before the, the term on your rate expires, I would make sure that you lock into a fixed.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know if this is something you can answer, but I think so. In terms of just financially, where is the best place for a family to live in the US right now?

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Boy.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  I mean, there are a lot. It's a really hard question, because it depends on where your job is. You've gotta live where your job is.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  But in terms of just overall quality of life?

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Prices?

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  When I worked at Money Magazine, every year, we published, we published a list of the best places to live. I don't know where that is right now. I mean, Philadelphia is actually very affordable when it comes to other cities, and we've got some of the best restaurants in the country.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  I mean, places like that are like, I feel popping now. I mean, LA's number is like, the last on the list. Did you know that?

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  And, you know, New York's really expensive. My, my daughter and son-in-law, they, they moved to Charlotte. Why?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  It's nice, yeah.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  It's, it's a great quality of life.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and much, and much more reasonable.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, they, they cut their rent in half and doubled their space.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, you know, I went to, even Austin, I went recently, and I went to a friend of mine's house, who's like, a very well-known, successful person. And I could not believe that my house in LA costs more than their house in Austin. Based on, like, the cal, like, LA is that expensive.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  LA is, it's crazy.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like, it's literally unbelievable. People can like, work like a dog, make money, and they're like, still, they're still like, you know, paying hand, what do you call it? Like, money hand, whatever. The, the, the real estate here is, in, in like, West LA, is, is so stupid expensive, and you get nothing for your money. Nothing.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I've watched.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  People should not be buying here, I'm just telling you. Anyway, let's keep on going. Okay, so I have a couple more questions, okay? For somebody who knows absolutely nothing about investing, what is the simplest way to start in 2026? What do I actually, like, what do I actually open, buy, and contribute every month?

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Open, um, an IRA or a Roth IRA at a big fidelity Vanguard, Schwab firm that has all the services and a really good online interface. Contribute, start with a hundred dollars a month. I mean, start where you are. If you can contribute more than that, great. But contribute a hundred dollars a month, and buy a total stock market index fund, or ETF, that just puts you in the market, and start watching what it does.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Okay, and if someone's, okay, so what's the difference? Let's say this, if someone's earning a hundred and, a hundred thousand dollars a year, a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, what would you, what would be the financial plan that you would put them on?

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  I would put them on some sort of a budget so that they're getting to the point where they are saving that 15% that we talked about earlier. Back to the 15%. So let's, let's, we gotta target something, right? And so we'll target saving.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  What has to happen to that family, to that person, so that that money goes in automatically? Is it coming out of their paycheck? Where's it going? Get it invested in some sort of diversified portfolio, can be the total stock market fund that I talked about a second ago. Then you make sure that, that their spending is in line, right? So they're not going into debt to support that saving. You make sure they've got a protection plan in place. What does this family look like? Is, are they married? Are there kids? If so, do they have a will? Do they have life insurance? Are they single and dependent solely on themselves?

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  If so, do they have disability insurance in case something were to happen? Have they, have they put into place documents so that somebody else could take care of things if they were to get sick? Is there a healthcare power of attorney or financial power of attorney? All of those things.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  What are the best ways for an average person to create wealth outside of their paycheck?

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  I love that you said outside of their paycheck. Investing is the, is the easiest lift, right? If you buy real estate, and I know that a lot of people have made a lot of money in real estate, and people like it, but if you buy real estate, then you're giving yourself another job. You're becoming a landlord in many, many cases, unless you just buy a REIT. If you buy stocks, if you, you are buying just pieces of companies. Those companies are doing the work. Let them do that.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  So you say stocks?

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Stocks.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Because real estate is always the number one, right? To buy, people think, oh, buy real estate, buy real estate, or have a side hustle, or a business, or is it? So you're, you're just saying stocks would be the best way?

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  In stocks?

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  Well, it's certainly the easiest. If you, if you're.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Lowest lift, for sure.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. If you're starting a side hustle, you gotta work that side hustle.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Buying a laundromat, gotta work that laundromat.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  It's a full-time job.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Okay, I, I have a, like, now, enough with my little questions. I wanna know, what is the number one thing people ask you about? That you get the most questions about?

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  I get the financial planner question, which you asked, how do you find one? Mm-hmm, I get the long-term care question a lot. That is a reflection, I think, of my, of my audience. Those are the two that I, I get most often. I mean, when I've been out talking about the book, I've been getting asked a lot of questions about, how do you set up a paycheck? Like, how do you, how do you? And, and I think it, it comes down to a little bit of your personality. Like, buying a paycheck with annuities gives you guarantees. You know that that money is gonna come for the rest of your life, no matter how long that life is.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  If you use investments to build your paycheck, bonds, CDs, dividend-paying stocks, that gives you some upside that you're not gonna necessarily get with annuities. So it's, it's really a matter of how risk averse you are versus how much FOMO you have.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  But, you know, people sort of wanna know the, the ins and outs of that.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Well, it sounds to me, just talking to you for the last hour and something and change, like, it's basically the same, like, like, besides the fact that people are living longer than they did 25 years ago, when you started, or.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  You know, it's still the same information. Like, it's like, it's kinda like in the fitness business, right? Like, people are constantly looking for like, this magic potion or pill to get results, but it's the boring basics that always get you to the finish line. In every industry, in every vertical, right? Like, it's like, tell me the newest and greatest and best, and it's like, well, unfortunately, it's the Roth, it's the IRA, it's the 401, it's the save your money, it's invest your, like, like, you, you could package it any way you want. You could put lipstick on this pig as much as you'd like, but it's literally the same thing over and over again. That's, that's kind of like, what I've gleaned from this whole thing, you know? It's like, a squat and a lunge will get you to the finish line more than all these fancy tools to, you know?

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  It's the same thing.

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  I, I, um, and I talk about it in those terms a lot. Like, you can't out-exercise a bad diet.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  You can't. And you can't save, you, you can't invest your way out of not saving any money. If you don't save anything, there's gonna be nothing there to invest.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  The whole program doesn't work.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  I, I, people laugh at me all the time, because I am very mindful of like, where I put my money. And it's because I don't wanna be, I, I, I don't wanna be in a situation, because you never know where I'm like, spending more than I make. Like, I think that's a horrible stress that you, people don't need in their life.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Right? Is there anything else that people can get from your book? Or what, what would be the top two things people will get from their, from your book if they go up there and buy it today?

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  I think they're gonna learn that the spending down phase of their money needs a plan. And if they plan for a paycheck, it's gonna make them a lot happier and a lot less stressed as they go through it.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Well, I'm telling you, I, I, this book, as everything else you do, I love.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Where do people find more about you and your business? Because you said you have courses and all the things.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  My business is hermoney. We have courses, we have newsletters, free newsletters, they're, they're good, actually.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  Actually, you sound surprised.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  No, they're good. Hermoney.com, and, and for more on me and the book, just Jean Chatzky.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  I love it. Thank you again for being here, I'm like, so happy.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks, this was super fun.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Thank you for being here. Guys, one more thing I always am remiss to say, and I get in trouble all the time. If you have not subscribed to the podcast, please hit the button, because it makes a big difference on the algorithms on all channels. And if there's any comments or things you wanna see on the show, please let me know. I'm always open and love hearing from you. So with that being said, thank you for being here, and bye, everybody.