The Inner Work of Leadership in Chaos with Nicholas Janni, co-author of Leading in Chaos

In this episode, we're joined by Nicholas Janni, leadership coach and co-author of Leading in Chaos, for a thoughtful conversation about what it takes to lead effectively in times of uncertainty and constant change. We explore why inner work is essential for modern leadership, discussing the power of presence, focus, authentic connection, and letting go of the need to control what cannot be controlled. Nicholas shares insights from Leading in Chaos on how leaders can cultivate deeper listening, create space for honest dialogue, and remain grounded as technology continues to reshape the workplace. We also examine the importance of slowing down internally, embracing trauma-informed leadership, and seeking coaching, mentoring, and psychologically safe environments that enable leaders to process challenges with greater clarity, courage, and authenticity. Episode Highlights & Time Stamps 3:56 Why This Book Matters 4:49 Chaos and Uncertainty Rise 5:56 AI Cannot Replace Leaders 7:07 Writing Together, Stronger Voice 9:00 The Trap of Control 11:19 Speed Gives Way to Presence 13:44 Living in Flow 16:28 Looking Inside First 19:32 Trauma in the Boardroom 22:16 Stop Overthinking Leadership In This Episode, We'll Discuss ✔️Why presence is a greater leadership advantage than constant speed. ✔️How control and overthinking limit your effectiveness as a leader. ✔️Why AI makes human leadership more valuable, not less. ✔️How your inner mindset shapes your team's performance. ✔️Practical ways to lead with more clarity, trust, and authenticity. Key Takeaways ✔️Great leadership starts with awareness before action. ✔️High-performing leaders create space to think before they react. ✔️Real listening builds stronger teams than micromanagement ever can. ✔️Emotional intelligence is a competitive advantage in uncertain times. ✔️Sustainable growth begins with the leader's own development. ✔️The strongest leaders aren't the most controlling; they're the most present. How to Connect with Nicholas Janni: LinkedIn: Nicholas Janni https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-janni/ Company Website: Leading in Chaos – to learn more about his work and platform https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Chaos-Leadership-Development-Transformational/dp/1917391854 Get In Touch with Nicholas: https://www.nicholasjanni.com/ Resources & Next Steps Ready to take your leadership energy to the next level? Explore free training and resources at https://training.coreelevation.com/ to help you identify energy leaks, strengthen your leadership presence, and elevate your team's performance. 🌐 Explore More: https://training.coreelevation.com/ 🎧 Listen to the Full Episode: Growth Think Tank Podcast https://growththinktank.com/

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You're living 90% of your day in a non-optimal state and we've normalized that. We accept that. So how do you expect to get things done in a truly high-performing way? No, we have to go right back to the root. And the root is a slowing down. Presence means I'm here, I pay attention, I'm present, I'm available. That's what presence means. I'm here and I'm available. Most people are not here. They're lost in their thinking. That's not being here. Most people don't actually have room to listen to another person. They don't have room inside.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  If you're a founder who's built something real and now your business can't grow without you in the middle of everything, you're in the right place. I'm Gene Hemmott. This is Growth Think Tank, where founders who are ready to stop being the ceiling of their own company come to think differently, lead better, and build a company that doesn't need them. This is the longest-running leadership podcast in the world. Hundreds of Inc. 5,000 CEOs have told their stories here. Let's get to work. Today, we talk about the inner work of leadership. That may not be the highest priority in your work today, to learn about the inner workings of your own way of seeing the world, your mindset.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  But what if it was a critical element to your success and your ability to turn the ship around, your ability to engage your employees and create the kind of business of your dreams? That inner work of leadership is a powerful force, but you've got to be willing to go there. Today's guest is Nicholas Yanni. He is the co-author of Leading in Chaos. His other co-author, Amy Elizabeth Fox, could not join us today, but Nicholas and I dive deep into the inner workings of leadership. We talk about presence. We talk about control. We talk about focus. We talk about the ability to truly connect to flow time.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  We unpack a lot of the core elements of this and we also look at the things that you think Are the right things to optimize inside your leadership, but they're actually not the right things. All that being said, my name is Gene Hammett. I am a founder, CEO, coach. I love helping companies really create the kind of business that they dream about. Now, I know what it's like to grow a company because I've done this many, many times before, and I've worked with leaders of the last 16 years doing this as their coach, as their advisor, and sometimes as their friend. And I say this to you, I get it. I know the hustle that it takes. I know the stress. I know the overthinking that comes along with all this.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  And I say to you, you're not alone. But if you are curious about the work that we do, and you want to kind of go just a little bit deeper without really taking the big step, you can download our latest book, Get Founder Freedom. I co-authored this with my co-partner and wife, Amanda Hammett. If you want to be more free, if you want to create the kind of freedom that gives you your life back and create the business of your dreams, then go get the free book, GetFounderFreedom.com.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Then go get the book at GetFounderFreedom.com. So now that all that out of the way, here's the interview with Nicholas. Hi Nicholas, how are you?

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Hi, pleasure to be here, Gene.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Well, excited to have you here to talk about your book, Leading in Chaos. We couldn't have your co-author here, Amy Elizabeth Fox, but I know that you'll be able to carry the load here today. I love having authors on, and I know how hard it is to write, since I've written multiple books over the years. Why did you have to write Leading in Chaos?

• 4:00Speaker 00

  I had to write it, we had to write it because we're both absolutely devoted to serving.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  And we believe that this is an urgent time collectively for humanity. And we believe that the work we've curated over several decades is really of huge value now. So we had absolutely no doubt about writing this book.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Well, let's start to unpack that because I think it's, you know, leadership is one of those things that typically doesn't change, but I think we're at a moment where it's really shifting and there's a lot of factors in it. So you talked about an urgent time. What are the real, you know, shifts that are happening that are causing leadership to be different as we move forward?

• 4:49Speaker 00

  Well, we are in chaos. We are in uncertainty. We're to some degree in systemic breakdown. And almost all the leaders I meet are saying one thing, which is that the ways we are used to using, the ways we are used to working are not working the way they used to. And so people are very, very lost, close to panic, I would say. And because there are, there's no clear map of an alternative, many leaders are simply doubling down on what they already know and it's causing huge amounts of stress. And we've got a different message as to what is needed now.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. What you didn't mention in there is the shift that's happening in technology with AI and whatnot.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a part of it. Yeah.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  A little bit of understanding of how you see that happening inside of leadership because I, I know some people would say, you know, jobs are going away. I don't think that's going to happen. I think there's, there is definitely going to be some shifts. We will need leadership even more through the change of this.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Well, jobs are, jobs are already going away and I, I think it's going to get much worse, but hopefully not. But I think what's becoming clear actually is that for all the huge benefits of AI, AI will never, ever replace human leadership and connection, inspiration, creativity are dependent on human interaction. And as we know, employee disengagement is, is rising rapidly all over the world. It's costing trillions of dollars, according to the latest Gallup

• 6:37Speaker 00

  polls. And the answer to employee engagement is human connection. So I think it's clear that that's actually becoming more important than ever.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  I totally agree with this. Diving into the book Leading in Chaos, because I know

• 6:58Speaker 01

  it is so hard to take your ideas and put them in place, but it's also such an incredible process of this. I'm going to ask you maybe a curveball question here, because I didn't, you know, I always treat authors as this, I know you're prepared for these curveballs, but writing the book, what shifted in your thinking around this as you started to really understand your ideas and try to create them in a way that you could transfer to someone when they read or listen to this book? Was there a shift that comes to mind that you would tell us?

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Well, it was an unusual process, because when Amy and I decided to collaborate, it was because we'd already each written a lot of material. And we not only admired each other's material, we knew we were working in a similar mindset, and in some ways doing quite unique work. So it was more about, wow, if we put our writings together, we're going to have something more potent than either of us working on our own. So it was a kind of very exciting initiatory impulse, let's say. And then compared to writing alone,

• 8:10Speaker 00

  it was honestly much easier, because we had 80% of the material. We co-wrote the introduction, we co-wrote the end. Otherwise, it's a series of shorter essays, and it was more about organizing them. And then, you know, when I look at the book now, I'm sure like you, sometimes we look at stuff we've written and think, no, I could have done better. But actually, I'm really excited by the book, because the combination of our voices, I believe, creates something very potent.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad that you written it because I think we are in chaos and leadership is the way forward through that. Couple of things that I want to dive into with you is, you know, looking at and analyzing the book and getting a chance to dive into your work. You talk about control a lot and I will be honest, a lot of the founders that I've worked with in my coaching practice, they don't realize that they're controlling this. And the one thing I have to share with them, and there's a many, many things behind this, but I'm like, you're losing your A players because they don't want to be controlled. And so what are your thoughts about control in leadership? Because sometimes people double down on that in chaos.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  It's a, it's a critical topic, Gene. So I'm glad you bring it. First of all, I think we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to be in control of things we cannot be in control of. And most of that is based on trying to create some feeling of security. And avoiding actually core levels of anxiety and unsafety. And the other thing is that I think we mostly fail to control of the only thing we can take control of, which is how and what we pay attention to inside and outside.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  We're so obsessed with trying to control the environment, which we can't. We miss what's really, really important. And I think most of the time, individuals and teams, we override so much of what's actually happening. We want so much to be in control that we miss whole layers. What's really here in the room? How are people really feeling? And if I want to know how someone's really feeling, I have to give up all idea of controlling them. I have to listen. And real listening has nothing to do with controlling, nothing whatsoever.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  You know, when I'm coaching a CEO and I, we begin to look at, so when you go into a meeting with someone, do you already know what the outcome should be? How would it be to let go of some of that? How would it be to actually meet the person and have a real conversation? A real conversation is not a controlled conversation. And a real conversation is when good ideas.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  I think you're spot on with with this, the way you're looking at this, especially as it relates to my clients. I do have a little bit of a, you know, an issue with this, and I know there's a reason for it. And maybe it's just looking at your work. I don't have a full picture of it, but there's a shift from speed to presence. And I will tell you, because a lot, I believe in speed. I believe my clients are believing in speed. I also know many times we have to slow down to speed up. And the presence, I would love for you to kind of describe what you mean by the shift from speed to presence.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  You're speaking into, I think, one of the great forgotten secrets that all high performers know, which is that in order to move really fast with real precision and clarity, we have to radically slow down inside. You know, it's like sports athletes when they ask to describe being in the zone. What's the first thing they say? I have all the time in the world. So when people say, oh, I'm so busy. I haven't got time. No, it's nothing to do with your watch. It's to do with your inner state. And the beginning of slowing down is I start to pay attention to what's really happening inside me.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  As we do that, we know from neuroscience that our brainwave frequency changes. We move more into alpha wave frequency, which is the frequency of being in the zone. When I'm in the zone or when I'm in flow, I get much more done, much more quickly. And you know, I often ask groups of leaders, you know how flow feels like? And they say, yeah, yeah, it's good, right? Yeah, it feels this, this. And then I ask, so tell me, on average, each day, how much percentage of each day do you live in flow? You know what the answer is, Jean?

• 13:15Speaker 01

  I can imagine, and if they're being honest with you, it's very little.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  It's it's between five and 10%. So hang on a minute, let's let's get the implication of this. You're living 90% of your day in a non-optimal state. And we've normalized that, we accept that. So how do you expect to get things done in a truly high-performing way? No, we have to go right back to the root. And the root is a slowing down presence means I'm here, I pay attention, I'm present, I'm available. That's what presence means. I'm here and I'm available. Most people are not here. They're lost in their thinking. That's not being here.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Most people don't actually have room to listen to another person. They don't have room inside. You know, CEO client once came to me after about three or four sessions of coaching and she said, you know, Nicholas, I've begun to notice no one is really listening to anyone. She said, I see people talk and I see it doesn't go in.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  That's what we've normalized. So that's what I call the first stage of waking up. We talk about waking and healing in the book. Let's wake up to what we've normalized. Because until we do that, we're going to keep being headless chickens. That's going fast in a non-effective way, right? So I believe in the hyperspeed. But I believe in hyperspeed that is sitting on a base of deeply grounded presence, where I have a big perceptual field, like a sports person. They will say, I have all the time in the world and I know everything that's happening. That's flow.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  So we need to stop normalizing, looking 90% of our lives not in flow. It's ridiculous.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  If you're listening to this show, chances are you're a founder who's built something significant. But you're still too deep in the day to day to see the path forward. That's exactly what the Founder Freedom Strategy Call is for. It's free. It's 30 minutes with me personally. And we'll pinpoint exactly what's keeping you stuck and what you need to do about it. Book your time with me at my personal URL, schedulewithjean.com. Now, back to the podcast.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  I do have to comment. I don't think it's anywhere close to 10%.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  If they're really honest.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  I can tell you heads drop when I ask the question. It's like there's a hushed silence in the room.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  And it'll never be 100%. It'll probably never be 80%.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  It needs to be over 50%.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  If they can get to 50%, I know that feeling because I know I probably spend, I feel like my mind is probably closer to 30, 40%.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Already very high.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Which is, which is okay for me. It's, you know, I've really just, I've really had to shift my own ways of working. All that being said, I want to dive back into your work. I, you mentioned inner like six times in that one sort of paragraph description. So I want to kind of dive into that because I think a lot of people focus on, you know, execution, getting the work done. You know, all the productivity and, and the habits and a lot of my clients ask questions like, you know, what are other CEOs doing?

• 16:53Speaker 00

  I know.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  And I go, that's not the right question. We'll talk about it. Explain what you mean by the.

• 17:00Speaker 00

  Okay. Well, here's a very simple example. You walk down a street in the town where you live and you look at the street. You go into a gym, a yoga studio, whatever's your preference. You do an hour of really good work on your body. Your body opens, you feel energized. You walk out into that street, it's not the same street. Your whole perception of that street is completely different. Why? Because something changed inside you. That's what I mean by inner. And if you take that a little bit further, the implication of that is your whole experience of the outside

• 17:43Speaker 00

  depends on what's happening inside you. And if we work on inside you, the whole issue you bring is going to start to look very different and you're going to think about it very differently. So, no, I'm not going to discuss what's happening out there. Because that's a way of avoiding looking inside you. Let's say, for instance, you're actually quite anxious inside. And looking out there will, apart from anything else, be your way of not looking inside because you don't, you're scared to feel how anxious you feel. But if we work together and I make it safe enough for you to actually welcome feeling anxious, just let it flow inside you.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  And then it metabolizes and you start to feel much more present and open. Your whole relationship with out there is transformed. That's what I mean by inner.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  You said the word anxious and it made me think of a story with a client. I remember one day, he talked about being anxious. He said it three or four times and I said, why do you keep saying the word anxious? And he's like, that's just who I am. And I paused for a second and I said, well, I'm curious, do you have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  And he's like, he actually used a cuss word, I won't say here today, but you know, he's just like, you got me, you got me. And I realized that, you know, I'm kind of stuck in that. So I, this inner development is so under.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Optimized with people that are so focused on, you know, getting the work done and, you know, all the stuff that that is somewhat important, but is driven by what's going on inside us.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  There's a connection in your work that that I would love you to go a little bit deeper. You know, we're coming toward the end of this, you know, this is not my last question, but I just want to let you know.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  None.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Trauma-informed development.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Now, I remember one of my coaches talking about trauma, and he framed it like this. If you try to do anything, install a new skill or a new strategy on top of a trauma, you will always self-sabotage yourself. So, let's talk about this self-informed development.

• 20:01Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  That you kind of have brought up in this work.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Okay, so, let me start by saying that I, my observation is many boardrooms and many senior teams are full of five-year-olds. What do I mean by that? I mean, let's say you're, I'm five years old, I'm scared, naturally. I go to my caretaker, mama or papa, and I say, hey, I'm feeling scared, and they're not available. They're busy, they may even try and explain why I shouldn't feel scared, at worst, they may shame me. So, in that moment, Jean, I have only one possibility, I have to stop that feeling. So, what do I do? I contract, I tense. Now, I do that, all of us did that multiple times.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  That feeling doesn't go away, it's locked inside me, and it goes into what we call my unconscious. Carl Jung said, "That which is unconscious drives our lives." So, many people as adults are getting triggered by those unprocessed emotions inside, that's trauma. And that will happen until we create the circumstances together, or one-to-one, where we can actually look towards what we're really feeling inside. Because once we feel what we're really feeling, it metabolizes. Feelings don't need fixing. Everything needs to be felt.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  That's how trauma is healed, whether it's personal trauma, in a collective trauma, whatever it is. And trauma sounds a big word, it's not, it's what happens to all of us. And obviously, there are more extreme versions of it. But the basic truth of trauma happens to all of us. And we're driven by it until we get conscious of it.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  We are driven by it.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Naming the trauma is not the easy work of this. And it's something that many people aren't willing to slow down enough to do.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  You've been talking about this.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Which is why we say that's the biggest, most important step.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  So this will be our last question here. And I just, I think this will be the most practical question that we have. And if you've stayed around for this long, this is the real payoff for you. But a lot of leaders are, you know, working on different things, but they're actually making it worse. So they're doing things that they think they should be doing. But what are those things that they think that are right, but they're actually not?

• 22:39Speaker 00

  Overthinking.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Overcontrolling. And the single most important thing most leaders could do is to make sure that one way or another, they have one person, be it a coach, a mentor, a guide, a close friend with whom they can slow down enough to be really authentic about what's happening inside and share. And that's what happens on our programs. We go through amazing journeys with people where at first vulnerability is frightening, but very quickly it becomes a source of huge joy and inspiration. When one person starts to be more authentic because they feel safe in it.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  So, critical step, find a circumstance in which you feel safe enough to be more real. The rest will follow.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Great way to end this Nicholas. I appreciate you being here. We've been talking about leading in chaos. Thank you and your co-author Emily or Amy Elizabeth Fox. I get that right?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I really appreciate you doing the work that it takes to launch a book and the work that it takes to get people to do it. The hard work now is getting people to read the book. So I encourage anyone who is looking to be a better leader, go find this book wherever you buy books, Leading in Chaos. Nicholas, thank you for being here.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Thank you. It was a pleasure, Chief.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Wow, what a great interview. I just feel his warmth and his care and empathy around leadership. And I feel it for myself, too. And hopefully you got something out of today's interview. Hopefully, you understand that your ability to truly connect to flow is very important. Your ability to lead through chaos is not something about more execution. Maybe it looks a little bit slower than where things are now. And all of those things were unpacked in this episode. So if you have any questions, if I can support you in any way through this, then make sure you reach out to me. And if you want to get our book, Get Founder Freedom, just go to

• 24:53Speaker 01

  getfounderfreedom.com. You can download it today. Those that qualify can get a free call with me, co-author of the book. But also, we can talk about anything that has got you in a space of challenge or conflict that I'd love to help you unpack, help you create clarity to move forward. And I've done this at scale for the last 16 years. So if you're curious about that, go to getfounderfreedom.com. When you think of growth and you think of leadership, think of Growth Think Tank. As always, lead with courage. We'll see you next time.