Being an Adaptable Leader and Having an Adaptable Culture with Jake Brenner at ShipLab

In this episode, I sit down with Jake Brenner, CEO of ShipLab, which ranked No. 1,775 on the 2024 Inc. 5000 list, to explore the significance of being an Adaptable Leader in today's fast-paced business environment. Jake shares insights into how embracing adaptability has been crucial to his leadership style and ShipLab's success. We discuss strategies for cultivating an Adaptable Leader mindset and fostering a company culture that thrives amidst change. Jake provides practical tips on how leaders can navigate uncertainty and turn challenges into opportunities. Tune in to discover how becoming an Adaptable Leader can drive innovation and resilience within your organization.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:32Speaker 01

  So for me, relationships are worth more than anything. And that gets really challenging when you have people that have been with you from day one and that have grown with you and really put in the time and effort. And then we found that we get to a level where I went, wait a second. Some of this, this processes, this person just isn't the right fit for that seat. And so having those conversations to be really honest, but also making sure that they know that it's in their best interest, right? That your intention for having this conversation is to get them to the next level. And unfortunately, getting to the point where maybe it didn't resonate like it should. And the needed changes weren't there and having to make the tough decisions. And I think there's a, there's a great book called Good to Great.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  And one of the concepts there, the general theme is just putting the right people in the right seats. And I think we had to really look at our organization pretty critically and kind of trust our gut and say, do we have this? And be really honest with yourself.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Welcome to Growth Think Tank. This is the one and only place where you will get insight from the founders and the CEOs of the fastest growing privately held companies. I am the host. My name is Gene Hemmott. I help leaders and their teams navigate the defining moments of their growth. Are you ready to grow? Today, we're going to talk about adaptability and the power of adaptability as a leader and within your culture. It is undeniable that change is on the horizon. No matter where you are, what business you're in, the only constant is change. We know this. I don't know who said that. Maybe I'm stealing someone's line, but adaptability is such an important piece to leadership. So today we have the co-founder and CEO of ShipLab and it is Jake Brenner. He is with us to

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Talk about adaptability and leadership and within his culture about why it matters so much about how he is able to infuse it into the culture and how that affects the performance of their company. They were on the Inc. List this past year, growing almost 300% of the last three years in revenue growth. They were number 1775 on the Inc. List. And so really impressive company that has a great track record. And he tells us a lot more about adaptability than I can share with you in this little preamble to the interview. If you want to take notes, dive into this, let's get going. My name is Gene Hemmott. I'm an executive coach. We do leadership development for fast growth companies. We've worked with more Inc. 5000 level fast growth companies than any other leadership development company.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  I primarily work with the CEO coaches to help them keep their mindset sharp and involving as they go through certain levels of chaos and inflection points in their business. And if you have a big opportunity on the horizon, my suggestion is for you to get really clear about how you need to evolve as a leader so that you can capture that opportunity. We could have a quick conversation around that. I could use some of the tools that are really important for this, and I will give them to you, and you can go execute the plan. If you want me to help you, we'll have a separate conversation that will explore how I can support you with my team, or just my own coaching. If you're curious about that, send me an email, [email protected]. When we get on the phone, this will be 100% about you and about you getting clarity around

• 3:37Speaker 02

  what's next, helping you by exposing some of the blind spots that might not be aware of because they're unconscious to them. So if you want to do that, just send me an email, [email protected]. Now here's the interview with Jake. Hey Jake, how are you?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Good. How you doing?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  I am fantastic. We're gonna have a great conversation today. But before we dive into that, let's talk about your company, ShipLab.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think ShipLab is started as the business that we needed that didn't exist, right? That's like the easiest way to think about it. I think those sometimes are the most successful because you're your own customer from day one. So our background, we had e-commerce stores, we were selling stuff online. My wife wanted the garage back because I was shipping stuff out of the garage. I was on a first name basis with the UPS store team member. And that was kind of the red flag, right? At that point, like, okay, we should probably make a change. And so partnered up with two other guys and we started our first warehouse, which was about 900 square feet or so. And described to my wife, hey, we personally guaranteed this and had to explain what that meant. So we're going to be sleeping at the warehouse if this doesn't work. Um, and yeah, fast forward, we've been in business now seven years.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  We've got 275,000 square feet, work with a bunch of ecommerce brands. We work with some larger brands as well, uh, such as Liquid Death, GoPro, some bigger names in the space. And it's been a great run. It's been challenging at times to grow this. Uh, but yeah, our core is really becoming the ecommerce operations partner for a team. So that if you don't need to run and want to run your own warehouse, we can handle that whole side of the business for you.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  I was looking on the website just to kind of get an idea of what you're doing. And I'm kind of curious, is AI starting to, to work its way into your processes?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it absolutely has. Um, every, every piece of it, we, we actually have an AI expert on retainer. So we've started by going through, we interviewed every team member, had all those meetings recorded. And then we started to use AI to sift through all of that, come up with things that we can really make a lot of like improvement on. And then we've prioritized those and we've started automating and injecting AI into it. But yeah, absolutely.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  That's fantastic. Um, let's dive into the core of today's conversation. Jake, I know our team does some interviews with you guys to, to figure out what's best. But scaling successfully from your perspective is about leadership and adaptability. Tell us a little bit more about what you mean by leadership and adaptability.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  So there's a great Mike Tyson quote, which is so common, I think in business is so applicable. Everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. And, and I think that's, that's very much as, as dark as that might sound, that, that can be business in many ways. And so when we went into this business, we had a spreadsheet. I, I think I probably had four expense line items on that spreadsheet, which was the most embarrassing thing to admit ever. But we did, and we had some ignorance and I think that's important. And then you get into it and you go, oh my gosh, we missed all these other items. We've got team members, racks, forklifts, all these things. If you can't. Adapt, you will die, right? And it's, it might be a quick death. It might be a slow, painful death. But ultimately, if you don't have the ability to adapt, you're not going to make it.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  And I think that involves bringing the right people with you too, that can adapt. But interestingly enough, I think there's also a need for those people to adapt as the company grows. And that's something that we've definitely had challenges with over the time is that people are really good early on. Sometimes aren't the best team members for us to get to that next level. And that's really challenging because those are tough conversations.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Which that sets up my book really well, the how to have.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, right?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  And it's a very common thing. Like, everyone knows the book by Marshall Goldsmith. And I think it's one of the best titled books ever because you don't actually have to read it. You can get a concept of what it is, but what got you here won't get you there.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  And in EO and in a lot of the leadership circles that we're both in, it's very common for people to go, oh, you know, I've got to let some people go because they just haven't evolved. They're not strategic thinkers. They're not technical or they're not process driven the way we are now. They were great before, but they're not now. And so you had to adapt and people maybe didn't adapt as quickly as possible to the growth. Tell me a little bit more about some of the, the, the things that you had to address in adaptability as your company has scaled up.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  So for me, relationships are worth more than anything. And that gets really challenging when you have people that have been with you from day one and that have grown with you and really put in the time and effort. And then we found that we get to a level where I went, wait a second. Some of this, just this processes, this person just isn't the right fit for, for that seat. And so having those conversations to be really honest, but also making sure that they know that it's in their best interest, right? That your, your intention for having this conversation is to get them to the next level. And unfortunately, getting to the point where maybe it didn't resonate like it should. And the needed changes weren't there and having to make the tough decisions. And I think there's a, there's a great book called Good to Great.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  And one of the concepts there, the general theme is, is just putting the right people in the right seats. And, and I think we had to really look at our organization pretty critically and, and kind of trust our gut and say, do we have this? And be really honest with yourself. And unfortunately, the answer was no in some cases. And so we had to make some changes and there was absolutely fallout there that was really painful. But in the long run, we've now said, okay, this is something that we don't, you know, weigh on and culture is so vital for us and so important. And that impacts everything. So getting those right people is, we have to do it. And so I think, yes, it's painful, but we made the right choices and it was the best decision we ever made.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Let me break in here for a second. This whole episode is about adaptability. One of the things I didn't mention in the episode was about a tool that I've developed. It's the seven dials of your company. Those seven dials are mission, values, communication, accountability, empowerment, adaptability, and EQ. Now, you can rate yourself from one to 10, each of those, those areas. If you want to print out, I'm happy to give it to you. Just send me an email, [email protected]. Ask for the seven dials. I will give it to you for free. I will even include in there a little training that goes with it that will help you become the leader that you want to be. All you have to do is ask me, tell me you heard it about the podcast. It's yours for free. Send me the email, [email protected].

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Now, back to Jake. Jake, I'm curious. I know that as an executive coach, I get to sit in this seat and get to talk to people about letting go. And, and none of my CEOs find it very easy. And that's, that's understandably because it's a person that's got, you know, families and they've got income that they're counting on. But when it's not a right fit, you're freeing them up to go somewhere else. Have you had to struggle with that concept of letting people go?

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's another piece to it too, that your job as a leader, if you look at your, your company as, as a boat, right? Or, or a ship, your job is to make sure that the ship is going in the right direction and that everyone is, you know, to use that same analogy, rowing in the right direction. And so you're, you're accountable to the entire boat. You were not accountable to one person. And that was a really important thing for me to kind of wrap around my head. And in my head is say, okay, I'm latching this on maybe for a few people because there's emotions, there's personal relationships, whatever that is. But in the grand scheme of things, I need to do what's best for the company, for the team and everything around that. And that, a lot of times your gut will tell you that, but it's very easy to kind of argue with your gut in that sense and say, okay, no.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  And X, Y, and Z are the reasons why that's not true, but it's probably right in the grand scheme of things.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  I'm curious about adaptability from the perspective of you. Is there an inflection point that you can share with us? I'm not asking for the deep dark secrets, but is there an inflection point that you have made in your own leadership style that allowed you to be the leader that you are today?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  So as far as adaptability, I would say one thing that I haven't wavered, and I'll get to that adaptability in a second. But one thing that I think I really pride myself on is that I will get in the trenches and work with the team if needed. And, and I think, you know, we're in the warehouse space. And so all too often, it's very easy to not have your finger on the pulse of what's going on in the front lines. And that can create some resentment. When we go through peak season, that's our busiest time. And so it's an all hands on deck and we're down there, shoulder to shoulder, picking orders, packing orders. And that's, that's to me is key and builds, builds that loyalty and that, that commitment because they know that, you know, when it comes down to it, we'll get down there and actually make it work. With that being said, that is very much my mindset is if there is a fire, I'm running into that building as fast as I can. And I'm going to figure it out while I'm there.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I've had to change that and, and as we've grown, I've had to adapt to the reality that that can't be my job anymore. And that my job is, okay, how did this building get put on fire? And let's figure out a better way of doing it. And, and that's allowed me to enable people to make decisions on the fly on the floor and, and make mistakes and go, that's okay. You can learn from that and you won't learn anything if you're constantly following these guidelines. You need to have some room for someone to make some mistakes and go, oh, that was probably the, not the right choice. Let's fix it and move on. And so long as you have a culture that people can make mistakes and be open and honest about it. I think that that works, but it's very hard for me sometimes to sit on my hands and say, okay, no, I'm, I'm not going to fix this problem.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Now, let me break in here for a second, add a little bit more commentary. Jake's been talking about putting out fires. A lot of leaders have their identity wrapped up into their ability to put out the fires, solve the problems for their people. But that has a breaking point. In fact, you become the bottleneck of the company if you put out the fires. I learned this the hard way and it's one of the reasons why I'm a coach today because Linda, my first coach, exposed a blind spot that I didn't know was there when I was solving the problems. For them. And she asked me, if you solve it for them, when do they learn to solve it for themselves? It was so clear to me from that one question, but it wasn't clear about it before. So one of the tools that I use inside of coaching is about being, who are you being?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  That gets in the way of what you want. And when you're able to answer that succinctly and clearly, you also can define who are you becoming? What's the next version of you? And so if you use this firefighting, you might be reactive. Being reactive is a form of just fighting fires as they come up. But you really want to become someone who's proactive. Now, those are just examples, but I share with you this little tool to help you continue to evolve as a leader. And you can keep tuning in to to things like that. I give as much as I can through this podcast. And if I can help you in any other way, make sure you reach out and find me. Back to Jake. Yeah, those are definitely inflection points that a lot of people struggle in. Uh, I've got a lot of tools that help people through this. So I appreciate you highlighting that for us, Jake.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Adaptability is such an important piece to a culture. Do you feel like you hire people that that are adaptable? Or do they become adaptable because of the culture and and what's going on there? Or is it a mixture of both?

• 14:21Speaker 01

  So I think interviews nowadays, people can kind of say the right things in any interview uh to get the job, right? How chat GPT will give you the answer, probably the perfect answer to every interview question you can imagine. But I I think that really getting on the floor and positioning someone and getting them some challenges to say, in the moment, are you going to, you know, really rise above? And to me, attitude is everything in those moments that we can teach people how to do a lot of things. And but the one thing we can't teach is attitude. And so in those moments of stress, is someone looking for help? Are they upset? What's what is kind of that that mindset that they're in? And I think that's something that we really look towards because we can empower them with the right resources and know that we have a culture that doesn't just, you know, tear someone apart if they made a mistake.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  We go, okay, how can we turn that into an actual improvement? How do you find that that trait in someone within an interview? There's there's ways, but nothing's perfect. We like to actually throw random questions in during interviews to Kind of throw someone off a little bit and the answer is totally meaningless. So you could say like, why are manhole covers round? The actual answer is it doesn't really matter, but you start to see someone's in a really big flow, you know, and they answering their questions. They feel like they're doing great. And then you hit them from the side and go, huh? What about this? And start to see how they think. And again, do they tense up? Are they laughing? I want someone who's laughing and kind of working through the problem together and going, wow, that's a really good question. I have no idea why. Let's kind of figure it out. Because that tells me that when you need to be adaptable on the ground, when you're packing in order,

• 15:51Speaker 01

  you're going to be okay. You're going to be in the right headspace and you're not going to be stressed out. Cause ultimately that's just not fun for anyone to be in. I don't want that type of culture in our company.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  I love that. This is a unique place. I've done a thousand interviews and no one said that the reason why they give these these questions. I do sometimes ask the question, I'm going to ask you, do you have a favorite interview question? And I know maybe you're letting the secret out of the bag for those, but I will tell you, if you have potential people that are listening to this interview, they're probably pretty serious about working for ShipLab.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  I like that one. The manhole one is great because it's just, you can sit there and go, oh, it's round. Okay. So we had like, it doesn't puncture tires, right? So there's no sharp edges on it. And you're like, oh, that's actually, okay, that that kind of works. And we ended up looking up, we didn't even look at the answer forever. We just went, okay, like this is it. And I'm blanking on what the actual answer is, and I don't really want to know the actual answer. I just want to see someone think. And so if you could, you could come up with maybe one that's relevant for your industry would be really cool, but I like that one because it's very off base. I think Elon Musk had one that was if you are, you walk one mile west and one mile south, and you're still in the same spot, like where are you in the world? And, and I probably butchered this question. So hopefully people aren't in the comments going, no, that's actually not how it is.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  But it's, I think it's like the answer is the north or south pole. And so again, it's, it's just to show someone being able to think and problem solve on that, a kind of in that moment there, which I think is so, so, so key, especially in for us, this is a world where warehouses are inherently very structured. So you need to pack and order this exact way. Well, we've actually kind of flipped that on its head a little bit and say, okay, our packers have a little bit. Of autonomy to pack something the right way, rather than if the system says it goes in this box. We've all gotten like a huge Amazon box where there's something really, really tiny inside. And you just go, this is so embarrassing for everyone involved. So we want someone to have that adaptability and that privilege of them to say, okay, this is, I can make this decision.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  I can own it and know that will back them up, you know, if it really comes down to it. So that's a good example of how we do that on a regular basis while not being as rigid as maybe the warehouse environment should be.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  I totally understand why adaptability is such an important piece. It happens with a lot of clients. The people problems they address is because people aren't adaptable. They're refusing to change, they're refusing to accept. I know you've worked through some different challenges around people that were, you know, not really on the adaptability train, if that's the thing. How have you been the leader to help people through their resistance?

• 18:23Speaker 01

  I think that I have changed as a leader where I, I thought leadership originally meant to be very supportive and, and very focused on just making sure that person was happy. In actuality, I think that happiness is still really important for everyone in the organization. And so I think I found myself kind of guarding a few different people being happy and kind of keeping those relationships really strong. When maybe there are other people in another organization that weren't happy as a result of it. And so I, I think that I've had to change that mindset of mine and, and say, no, this is that. Again, going back to the tough conversations, I promise I'm not a, I'm not an affiliate for the book and getting endorsed here for the book. But, but it does keep coming up, right?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  It is, is just setting up the framework to say, listen, we're going to be honest with one another. And that's okay, because we both have the same best interests in mind when we leave this room. And I think that that, that's been a big shift is that that wasn't always the case. And I think I learned a lot by just having tough conversations. You realize you leave the room and go, well, that didn't go well. I need to figure out how to change this. And so one of the things that I think is, is important is that you set that framework. And that's hard to change in a company culture, right? If it's already established, it's, we did a lot of work to kind of re-change that mindset to say, okay, when you are here and we're talking about feedback and. Criticism and so forth, we're going to leave this room on the same team still. And that's really, really important to always remember because in those moments,

• 19:48Speaker 01

  it might not feel like that if you're talking about someone's pay, their role, their responsibilities. A lot of times it can feel like a battle and, and you want someone to know that we're on the same team. That's, that's why we're going, you know, this direction. Cause if not, it's easier to quit, right? It's easier just technically speaking, it's easier to just to fire someone. But that's, that's not the right way of doing it. You need to put in the time and, and give people the chance to rise up. And ultimately, when you exit those conversations, a lot of times they're even better. Everyone is happier and working better together because there's a sense of, okay, we got this.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Yes, you're a good ambassador for the book, even though you've never read it.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  I promise.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  You've also, you know, had to address a lot of people problems. I know I've worked with clients who have warehouse workers and they're not as adaptable as, as we would like them to be sometimes.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  But when you are patient and you are an empathetic leader, I think that, that you are, you can connect with them. And, and I love this, we're on the same team. And so you leave them with that in mind. It's a very different experience than I just got, you know, a talking to.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Oh, totally. That should never happen. Yeah. And, and in warehousing, like you said, that, that's kind of industry standard, so to speak, right? Amazon is, is given the, you gotta be as efficient as possible. And it's just really, really brutal. That's not the environment that I want.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Oh, so you don't monitor the pee breaks?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, the peeing and the, and the Gatorade bottles, like the epitome of it. I use that a lot when you talk to clients, go, this is never the level. If, if we're at 85%, 90% and people enjoy their job, they're going to do a better job and care about the brands they work with. And that's been a big differentiator for us. I want someone to be happy when they're here and that's not going to say that every day is, but I want most of it to be.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  Jake, thanks for being here to talk about adaptability, the impact it makes on your company, the performance and, and your leadership as well. I really appreciate your wisdom.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Wow. Another fantastic interview on the podcast. I know I say that all the time, but I'm really excited to be able to bring these interviews with you, with people that are growing their companies. Adaptability is something that a lot of Companies struggle with, they don't even know it, they don't have words for it, but they just know that people aren't accepting change and it's part of the nature of the business. AI is one of the biggest change elements going on right now and you want to make sure that your people are embracing that and not shying away from it. That's a form of adaptability and I'm happy to hear to help you in any of the leadership challenges you may have or leadership development across your teams. If you can help you, just send me an email, [email protected]. And when you think of growth, when you think of leadership, think of growth thinking.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  As always, through your courage, we'll see you next time.