FRANK WARREN: How a Kid from a Council Estate Became Boxing’s Biggest Promoter

Frank Warren is one of the biggest names in British boxing, having promoted some of the greatest fighters the sport has ever seen. I'm a huge boxing fan, so sitting down with Frank was a dream come true. And his life is like a Guy Ritchie movie… Frank grew up on a council estate in North London, left school at 14 and fell into boxing promotion almost by accident. He went on to build an incredible career, only to be shot and nearly killed at the height of his success. From surviving that to promoting some of the biggest nights in boxing, Frank has seen it all. In this conversation, Frank shares: The moment he was shot and nearly killed in 1989 Why signing Ricky Hatton was one of his proudest achievements His thoughts on how ‘influencer-boxing’ is changing the sport What happened when he got punched by Mike Tyson Frank is a reminder that resilience isn't about avoiding setbacks - it's about what you build after them. Frank Warren is Great Company. If you enjoyed the show, you can also follow us: Instagram - @greatcompanypodcast TikTok - @greatcompanypodcast Jamie - @jamielaing And if you've got thoughts, questions and comments, you can email us at: [email protected] THE CREDITS Producer: Helen Burke Assistant Producer: Issy Weeks-Hankins Video: Harry Sawkins Senior Social Media Manager: Laura Coughlan Audio: Rafi Amsili Geovannetti Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Fighters that you have worked with?

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Tyson Fury, Joe Calzaghe, Prince Asimis?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Ricky Hatton.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Mike Tyson? What's it like getting punched by Mike Tyson?

• 0:07Speaker 01

  I didn't know he was gonna do it.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  Thought, what happened?

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Pissed off that I didn't pay $2 million for his jury. Can you imagine me going home to my wife and saying, "I've just bought Mike Tyson $2 million quid without a jury, darling"?

• 0:18Speaker 00

  What are your thoughts on Dana White? Who's the biggest diva you've ever dealt with? What makes a good boxing match? Tyson Fury versus AJ? Do you think the fight will ever happen?

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Frank Warren, and I'm in great company. The Hall of Fame promoter. Frank Warren! Never thought for one minute I'd be doing what I'm doing. I never thought I'd be promoting Frank Sinatra. Meeting Nelson Mandela, being invited by him to go to his house.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Frank, your life is unbelievable!

• 0:46Speaker 01

  You know, I've been lucky.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  You signed Ricky Hatton when he was 18 years old?

• 0:48Speaker 01

  He was a man of people. The fight with Costa Zoo. He was a big underdog from the first bell. He jumped on his ass and he wouldn't give him any room. It's the best fight of his career.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  So upsetting, you know, what happened with Ricky, right? That sort of mental health side of things. Why do you think that happens a lot in boxing?

• 1:01Speaker 01

  I just, I, I, I think...

• 1:04Speaker 00

  You've had moments where you think you're down and out.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  The shooting and everything fell apart, London Arena. As I got out the car, I heard a bang. Then I'll see this guy and he had a mask on and a gun in his hand. Bullet hit me here in the chest and went out the side of my body and into my arm. All I could feel, I'm suddenly feeling this gurgling in my throat. And it was where my lungs were filling up with blood.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  When you come that close to dying, what does that do to you as a person?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  God, I'm trying to think.

• 1:32Speaker 02

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• 4:42Speaker 00

  Guys, welcome back to another episode of Great Company. I'm really so excited for today's episode because it's with Frank Warren. Frank is one of the biggest boxing promoters in the entire world. He looked after Mike Tyson, Tyson Fury, Ricky Hatton, Joe Calzaghe, just to name a few. He's also had an insane life. I don't know if you know this, but he was once shot and nearly died. And we talk about that in this episode today. But before we start, if I can ask one quick favor. I always ask it, but if you can click that subscribe button and join our incredible community. It does so many things for the show. Basically means we could keep making this show better for you guys. Keep getting better guests and keep delivering week in, week out. If you can do that one thing, thanks so much. Okay, here we go. Enjoy this incredible episode of Great Company with Frank Warren. Frank, I'm gonna kick off with a quickfire boxing question round, right?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  To just set us in. Are you ready for this?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  What are your thoughts on Dana White?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  What are my thoughts on Dana White?

• 5:34Speaker 00

  Straight in.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  As a person, he's, he's, I've met him, met him a couple of times. He's, he's okay. He's very successful in what he does. As regarding boxing, take him at his word. Let's see what he does by the end of the year.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  Because he's made, he's made some big statements, right? That he want, what he wants to do?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we all make big statements. You know, you can make a statement, then you've got to go and do it.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Who's the biggest diva you've ever dealt with, fighter-wise?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  There was a fighter who was fighting Dennis Andrews, J.B. Williamson, his name was. And he came over and I put him in a, in the sponsors' club that they had, who were, who were a big paper company. And cut long story short, after the, after the fight, they came, they said, or just before the fight, they said to me, he keeps demanding things. And he said he's demanding a manicurist. And I went, what? I said to him, let him do it. I said, whatever it is, just give me the bill and I'll take it off his... Well, I care. I mean, have what he likes, you know, as long as it doesn't...

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Cost us anything.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he had that. And after the fight, Dennis Andrews beat him and he was walking around and he would, no one liked him. And he was walking around the dressing room saying to everybody, "What'd you think?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  You know, we had it our fight, I had it our fight." And he's, he's came up to Ernie Foster, who's down to earth. Everybody, you know, everybody's sort of going, "Oh, you're all right." Come up to Ernie, went to him, "You was fucking useless."

• 6:50Speaker 01

  And he looked at, and then he looked at me and he said to me, "What did you think?" I said, "Your nails look good."

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Okay, next one for you. What's it like getting punched by Mike Tyson? Apparently it happened in 2000.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Well, I've done better than anyone else. I got straight out.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Did he actually hit you?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cold, I didn't know he was gonna do it. Cold punch.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Cold punch?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm just cold.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Left, left, left?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  It's quite a badge of honour, that, isn't it?

• 7:17Speaker 01

  And I'm better than the opponent who fought him on the night.

• 7:21Speaker 00

  But you got back up?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna stand for that.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  Did it hurt?

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Did it hurt?

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I mean, I can't remember. I mean, like, what I mean by that is just a boom, it come out of the blue. Pissed over, pissed off that I didn't pay $2 million for his jury that he had. I mean, what, can you imagine me going home to my wife and saying, "I've just bought Mike Tyson $2 million quid without a jury, darling"? You know what you can do, don't you?

• 7:45Speaker 00

  He would have been furious.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  It's just nonsense, just total nonsense. And he paid, and he settled the bill as well.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Has there been any fighters who you didn't think met their potential?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, quite a few.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Really?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Young, look, talent gets you there. Hard work takes you there. I've seen so many talented, talented people waste their talent because they haven't got dedication.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Man, that's a great advice. What makes a good boxing match?

• 8:10Speaker 01

  An evenly matched fight. Fighters that are well-known to the public. At the, you know, at the highest level, you want the best fight. They've got to be well-known. It helps if they can both have a good personality. I mean, some, some really good fighters haven't got such a personality. They're all different characters, but if they've got great personalities, it helps sell it, sell it. Like, for example, I mean, you, you know, you always look at what, what would have been good fights that didn't happen. I mean, could you imagine if you made Muhammad Ali against Tyson Fury? The press conference you'd have sold tickets for. It'd have been great fun. So that would make a good match. But we, you know, we're good at making matches. And, and also, if you're, if you're, normally as a promoter, you have your own boxers that you've brought through and promoting.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  So you're looking to make the right match for them for the, at the right time.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  And the right match is like the most perfect punch. It's all about timing.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  Really? And wait, just explain that to me naively. Like, when do you know it's the right? Can you just, you feel it?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  It's instinct and feel it. And obviously, I've been doing this, I've been doing it nearly 50 years now. So I watch fighters and I look to see, we can all see what, what fighters do, which are good, what's good. I'll look to see what they don't do, what's a good. And where's the little chink in the armour? But, you know, if it's the opposition. And also, I would have my own guys so that I can speak to the trainer and say, you know, what they, I feel they need to improve on.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  So who, who's the greatest showman of all time, then? So, because if you, you talk about... Really? Like, how good?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Beyond, beyond anybody. Not, not just as a boxer, as a person. He was just, he'd light up a room. He walked in this room, it just light up. And have you ever seen, there's a great film called When We Were Kings?

• 9:48Speaker 00

  I know the film, I haven't seen it there.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  You've got to watch it. Anybody listening to this, you wanna know what Ali is, watch When We Were Kings. It's just a marvellous film and the music in it is fabulous. It's like I continue to turn a lot. And Muhammad Ali, you watch him in it. I mean, he, old friends of mine passed away now. Hugh McAvoy, great, great journalist and Ken Jones, fabulous journalist. They, you know, they tell you stories, and I was young at the time myself, but they tell you stories where you try and interview a fighter now.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Or footballers, you've got to go through all their agents, all the nonsense and it's very difficult, you know. I remember when I was a kid, if I stood outside the Arsenal, trying to get autographs, players would sign them. Now they won't even kids do that.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  And you, and no one gets near anybody. You've got to go through this, these entourages and so forth. And Muhammad, he'd do the interview and then all, they all get what they want because he was, you know, he was so articulate, so clever, so funny. And then leave, and like the guys are having drinks and all, and then he'd come back down again. And he's that sort of guy, he's just, he was just marvellous.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  And of course, listen, you know, we, a- a- as like, as like boxing like fans, we kind of know how good he was. But we don't actually know how good he was because we weren't really, I wasn't live during that time. But how, how good was he?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Well, I, I see him fight and I see him fight at, in, at the Arsenal. I went with my dad.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  What year is this?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  I think it was about sixty, I think it was sixty, was it sixty six? I think it was sixty three. But anyway, I went to see him and he fought Henry Cooper. And Henry Cooper was a massive British hero, massive, you know, he was a big hero and he'd floored him in a previous fight and he fought him. And he's doing okay, Henry, but he had a, he, he, Henry used to cut badly, had bad cuts about, about his eyes, I mean, he used to bleed like, you can't believe. They used to say he used to bleed at press conferences. I mean, that's how bad it was. And he, um, he, he, uh,

• 11:43Speaker 01

  he, he gave a good account of himself. Then, then Ali just stepped up and, and done what he had to do. But I met him, I was a kid. And, you know, when you're a kid, you're meeting your heroes and, and, but what you remember, in those days, people didn't like him. Older generation didn't like.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  What, because he was too outspoken?

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Outspoken and they were all, you know, they, I mean, they liked Joe Louis, they liked Rocky Marciano who preceded him. They loved all those. But because he, that's what he was. He was brash, he was arrogant in what they thought was arrogant, you know, he'd say things and I mean, I thought he was a, you know, he was funny and in the ring, you know, the shuffling and all the showboating and, you know. What they're wanting, you know, the older generation wants to see him get knocked out. It was a bit like when, when I brought, when Nas was with me.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  There's that generation, some of them journalists I just mentioned, read, wrote some terrible things about him. But, and I said, but you're the same journalist who was writing good things about Ali. There's no difference. They're selling themselves, it's how they are.

• 12:38Speaker 00

  And that's Prince Naseem, right?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Unbelievable.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Nas, Nas was great fun.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Unbelievable.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  He was great.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  But do you know what's so fascinating for me, Frank? Is this is like history. Like, like, the, the, these are moments in history that we like, think about, we read about, we, we talk about. You were there. You witnessed it. You're part of it.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I was privileged. I mean, I was very privileged. I mean, I've gone a four, four floor block of flats and just off of Pentville Road. That's where I, in Islington. I knew, I never thought for one minute I'd be doing what I'm doing and it just got into it by accident. But and I, and, but I've done it and over the years, the people I've met, not just in boxing, but outside of boxing, you know, some really unbelievable, you know, people, uh, uh, I never expected it to happen. I was privileged.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  So you grew up in Islington?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  I- in an apartment?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  In a block, block of flats, council block of flats, four floor.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Mum, dad?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Mum and dad. My mum's, mum and dad split up when I was about twelve, they, they, they had a sort of tough marriage, but then they split up. Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Do you know what's interesting? You said, you, there's a quote which you said, which was, when I was a kid, um, I just knew that whatever I did, this may sound big headed, I'd be successful.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  I've always had a, I mean, going back to when I was at school, in my days, they used to have what they called the eleven plus.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  And I passed that and I went to a grammar school and whatever. I le- I, I left school when I was fourteen and a half. Which was nuts and I, I'm really, you know, education.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  So young.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Is, yeah, but it's, they would, it was different times and, and, you know, and because my mum and dad split up, I started bunking off school. It's all, you know, because I got away with it because they, they were, whatever was going on with them and, you know. So I got away with a few things, but I was, I've always, whatever I've done, I've, I've been okay. And I've done fairly well. I mean, when I was young, I had, I had pubs when I was twenty three, a couple of nightclub. When pool tables came in, now again, I was in my early twenties, we, I got involved in that, putting the pool tables and machines into pubs and clubs.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  What was it about? Like, was it about making money or was it about being successful?

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I don't think I even thought about it. It was just, I, I used to just want to have a good time. And I liked, and if you got, if you earned money, you had a good time. You know, that's the truth of the matter. It makes life a little bit better, doesn't it? And that's what I did. And I went out and worked, I worked hard and, um, and had, and had fun. I mean, I was probably the best customer in, in the pubs and the clubs at the time. I had, I mean, I would never have made a boxer, I've never had the discipline to do that. But we, you know, and my family were quite a tough family from Islington. They were quite, you know, my uncle, he was involved in a famous episode with a guy called Jack Spot. They sort of, my uncle and and Albert, they used to look, they had a lot of bookmaking pitch, pitches, illegal pitches in those days.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Street bookmaking because they never allowed, you know, no betting shops. They still had betting pitches and things and they were, you know, there was a few bits of up and, you know, rough and tumble over that. And my uncle and, uh, you know, he spent a bit of time in prison over it. But he was, he's the best man I've ever met, uh, of anybody I've ever met.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Would they be almost like London gangsters in a way?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Well, that's what they were, they were called that, you know, but they weren't, you know, no drug dealing, there was nothing, nothing like that. It was all down to betting. But, but the characters in these places were just.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Unbelievable.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  It was the best fun. And it's a great education, you know.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Growing, growing up in this sort of environment, how did that influence you in like a positive way, do you think?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Well, because you've got to remember the environment you grew up, you're a product of your environment. You know, you, you don't, it's only when you get older and you travel and you're lucky enough that you, the blinkers are off, you see how other people live. I mean, you have a perception sometimes of what you think the world is and what the people are. And where I came from, so you, you know, because the family I had, you had to be, you had, you know, you was one of the boys, you had, you was supposed to be a tough guy there. And, and I, I mean, I had my fair little,

• 16:39Speaker 01

  when I was young, I had a few, fewer incidents, but, you know, you, you, I, I just wanted to break out of it. I knew I was going to break out of where, what I was doing. I knew I was going to do that. And it wasn't by design or anything, you just, I knew it, but it just happened and it happened. And each thing I got involved with just snowballing, snowballing over the years.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  How did you become a boxing promoter? You, you?

• 16:58Speaker 01

  By accident.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  So, but you, because you promoted your cousin, didn't you?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, what happened was again, with my, my, Lenny, Lenny McLean, um, he, he's passed away now, Lenny. He was a very big guy, the size, he, he was that size when he was twelve. He was one of those naturally big kids, you know. And I never really got on that well with him. I found him a bit, a bit of a bully, but he had a, he was funny. He had a very funny sense of humour. And we got invited to, to see him fight. He was fighting at a place over in South London, a nightclub called Sinatra, spelt with a C.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  Sounds classy.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  And we just went as spectators. So we sat there and, and we're watching and it was, these, these unlicensed fights as such, they weren't licensed by the Boxing Board of Control. Uh, but they were all wearing gloves and everything. Anyway, so we go out, we go, there was just watching it, spectators. And the, the first, he's fighting a guy called Roy Shaw, who was a, who was a bit of a tough guy outside the ring and you know, he'd beaten everybody and, and he was like the, the champion of the circuit. And Lenny comes out and he catches him and his legs go and then he doesn't frown over punch. And then it's Shaw sort of half recovers and then he comes back and, and Lenny then go, winds up in the corner, like the ring corner and puts his arms up on the ropes like this. He says, go on then.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  And this Roy Shaw must hit him about twenty, thirty times and he just slides down the ropes. Or down the, the corner post. So I'm like, what the? Anyway, afterwards, go back to the dressing room, I was with my uncle. He walks in, my uncle, I said, what's the matter? Are you stupid or something? Why'd you let somebody do that for? And, you know, that mate, I just want to just get out there and go and have a drink somewhere, you know. So that's it, we go. Anyway, about six months later, he said, Lenny's, um, who's got a rematch with this, with Roy Shaw. And then the week of the show, Lenny's told Bob that if he wins it, he's been told that he won't get out of the place. Still have a, you know, nonsense stuff. So on the night of the fight, Lenny's cornerman is my uncle Bob,

• 19:03Speaker 01

  me and Johnny Wall, who, who's cousin again, on, uh, second cousin on the other side of the family, who, um, who was a professional fighter, you know, was, was, and a very good professional fighter, very good fighter, but was a playboy. I mean, he did, he didn't give it a hundred percent. So we were his cornermen. So the first bell goes, out comes Lenny Shaw, and then he boom, does him, over he goes. And this is on their promotion.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  They got, whoever this referee is, he counts up to like, they weren't telling, he must have counted up to thirty. And he gets up.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  He gets up and, uh, anyway, bell goes straight to the corner to recover. Anyway, next round comes out, Lenny hits him. And he went up in the air and he threw the, he went through the rope and his feet kept him up, hanging outside the ring. That's how he went over like that. And Lenny's like, ah, because Lenny with big personality. I'm the boss, I'm the governor and he's running around the ring and we're just, me, I don't know what, well, I don't even know what we're even doing there. And that was it. So we come away then a couple of weeks later. Um, we go to this bloke called Alex Steen, who was had a ticket. Well, we call them tickets outstanding, a ticket, whatever they call them these days.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And and he was with another fellow called Joe Pyle, Joey Pyle. And go up to the office, his office, then we'll do a rematch. And he says, I can't remember, I think it says something, and remember, this is in the seventies. He said something, we give you five hundred quid or six hundred quid, whatever it is in them days. And I looked at him, I said, you know, and my, I leave my uncle to speak, I'm just like there and I'm listening and I'm not saying a word. And and then when he sat down and he said, well, that's what it is, you know, take it out, I said to him, he's beaten. I said, you know, he said, well, he's beaten, he won the first one. I said, but he's beaten, so it's a rubber match now, split down the middle, whatever it takes. No, that's what it is. So I said, well, he ain't gonna fight him.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I said, we're, we're, we're doing our own thing, we're putting a fight on. I said, we're, we're doing ourselves. So we, anyway, look, mate, maybe we get up and we walk out and we go outside. I said, what do you mean, we're doing it? I said, I don't know, I don't even know why I said it, I was just pissed off with this Joey Pyle. So he sort of said to me, um, so he said, I said, well, we'll do it, don't worry, we'll do it. So next week, we're booking the Rainbow Theatre, which is up in Finsbury Park, which, because we couldn't get, you know, that, that was a venue, how they able to that? Two and a half thousand people, whatever they got in the cinema. And um, he fought a guy called Sully Francis, who was a, who was a bloke from Ilford. He had a couple, these couple of really nice guys who had a couple of, I think, had a car business and nightclub in Ilford.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  And he was their sort of man. So we did the fight and we had a side bet in those days because Lenny kept all the money. Because, you know, well, we weren't promoting, we're just, we're doing this thing and that's it. And we got, get the match on, got the fight on and we had a twenty five grand side stake, which was a lot of money back then.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  What is that like nowadays, would you think?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Might be, I don't know, I don't know what it is, maybe two hundred and fifty, three, four.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  It's a lot of money.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we had the bet and um, and it was held by, I remember a newspaper, one of the local, because that's what we done to get press. That's what I said, let the newspaper hold it, got a bit of mileage out of that, we sold the place out. And um, I remember Thames Television, as it was in them days, this is all before your time. ITV were all regions then, it was Thames Television. And they had a programme on at six thirty at night, you know, roundup of what's happening in London. And this bloke, come on, Mike Morris, he was a lovely bloke. And he come on, he said, I was on the phone, he said, this, this fight, he said, this fight, he said, it's gonna be a bloodbath, isn't it? I said, what do you mean, a bloodbath? It's gonna be a bloodbath? He said, you know, no, no gloves and whatever. And that is the perception and that's what everybody's perception was. So I never said anything.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  I just said, all I know, it's gonna be, I said, it's gonna be some war.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  Because you want to make it exciting.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Left it as it was, I'm not saying anything because they had gloves on the night, place is jammed. About six o'clock, someone said to me, we haven't got any boxing gloves. I went, what? So we had no boxing gloves. So somebody knew a fellow called Ernie Fossey, who'd become a dear friend, late, and he'd become a dear friend of mine. Got in touch with her and rang him and he came down with this big suitcase full of boxing gloves for the guys to wear. That's how, that's how organised it was. Anyway, it was a big success, Lenny won, then we had the rematch with Roy Shore and we did the promotion.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  It's, it's, what's so like, um, refreshing to hear, Frank, it's like, so many of these situations, so many things that are built, it just like, it's fake it till you make it. You're just guessing at the beginning.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like, well, you know, I look at some of those guy, well, Guy Ritchie, he, he, with Lenny, he dedicated the um, Locks, Knock and Smoking Bar. He dedicated the film to him. The start of the film, it said dedicated to Lenny, obviously I knew him when he was younger, but he dedicated it to Lenny. Because Lenny become an actor, he done, he's done some, he was in a few things, played, you know, like played.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Him?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Himself, yeah. And he was, but uh, yes, and the snatch, it was all that sort of.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  That was the start of it? That's what it was like?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Well, well, I mean, I watched that and I see where they're coming from and obviously they did, I mean, you know, and I was a kid, I was what, twenty four then?

• 24:33Speaker 07

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• 26:36Speaker 00

  You signed Ricky Hatton when he was eighteen years old?

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  What made him different to other fighters?

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Um, he was a man of the people, you know, people loved him. Uh, when he signed for me, I met him with his trainer, Billy Graham and his dad. And uh, anyway, we, we signed him, done the deal and his first fight, I think it's in Widnes. And he sold three tickets, I think it's three or four tickets, that's what he sold and uh, and that, that was that. But he, he, he just, you know, worked hard at his, his promotion. Man City connection, went to Man City, you know, built up this massive fan base and become a, and we worked very hard. I mean, boxing in Manchester, it was pretty dead. Then I got involved up there and started running shows and, and then Ricky, it got bigger and bigger.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  He was like the heartbeat of it.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he, yeah, he became, and there was a few other young kids on there at the time who were big ticket sellers as well. So we combined all that and it turned into a, a good situation. And I took him around the country as well. And he um, he just built this massive fan base and, and, and it was exciting. But the problem was, after a couple of years, after fights, he'd, on the Sunday, go and have what he called his bad shirt. A bad shirt, they, a couple of his pals, old friends of that, down the pub where they'd all put crappy shirt, whatever that was, you know, shirt on. And but they get pissed out their brains. And that is not what you, you know, fighter can't live that life. And you can't live that life being on the booze and doing things you shouldn't be doing

• 28:08Speaker 01

  in that, in, in, in the profession of being a boxer. You know, say a boxer fights four, a good fighter fights three or four times a year. You've got big gaps in between. And then you're not training, you're not training for a fight, you're training to get fit. Because you, you know, you've, remember, he's Ricky Fatten?

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Because he's put the weight on it.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  And it's a great shame and, and, and, and he, you know, and it got, and it got a bit worse. And at one stage, you know, there was, we was talking, because John, John Botra's sister, she was one of the founders of the Priory. So we were gonna, we talked about going there and whatever and anyway, it didn't happen. And he just got, it, it just got, it, it was a great shame. And then we got to the fight with Costa Zoo, who was at that time was considered to be pound for pound the best in the world. And it, we guided him into the, into the position to fight. And, and we were working with an American TV company called Showtime. They were, they were in the Costa Zoo business and we all, we had, we had a deal with Showtime and they were showing a lot of British fights, including Ricky's. But I see Ricky as an opponent for him.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  And. I sort of dragged it out of it, um, and they wanted to take, they, a couple of things they wanted, which we didn't want to do. So I said, look, let's make a final eliminator for the title. You're in the number one spot. And then you, we're not obligated to do anything. We just go straight for a purse bid unless we do a deal, which is what we did and we got it that position.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  What do you mean the purse bid? What is that?

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Well, if you can't agree terms and a fight is ordered by the governing body or the world body, whoever it may be, then the promoters have to put a sealed bid in and whoever puts in the highest bid, when, you know, purse bid wins the fight.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Got it. Makes sense.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  So that's, that's what happened. And, uh, I, I sat with Ricky and I said to him, right, we, we, uh, uh, this is the moment for this guy. I'm telling you, you know, cause I, cause I kept asking for us. He now's the moment to do it. You sure?

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  And we talked and that was it. And we made the fight and he, he was phenomenal at night. It's the best fight of his career. He, he says that it was his best night and he was just brilliant. He was, he was unbelievable on the night and he, he, he, beyond what I expected, I expected him, I fancied him really to win and he was a big underdog. He weren't, he was a massive underdog.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  And he'd done a job. He, from the first bell, he jumped on his ass and he wouldn't give him any room. And he just, he, he, he, I think it's about the 11th round, his corner, very good cornerman. Uh, they pulled him out to fight Costa Zoo and Ricky was champion. That was it.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  You know, Ricky Hatton, what a fighter. And just, um, so upsetting, you know, what happened with Ricky, right?

• 30:44Speaker 01

  He was dreadful. He's still out of his family and everything. It was dreadful.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  It's just dreadful. And what's interesting about, you see this a lot in sport, right? Which is where, um, that sort of mental health side of things really comes in. You know, you've seen it with, um, Ricky Hatton, you, Tyson Fury's been very open about it. Why do you think that happens a lot in boxing?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I think it happens in all sport. I think what happens in boxing though, is that it happens for different reasons. And people think you're the promoter, so you know what they're doing. Uh, you see fighters, if you're a promoter, you might, you're seeing probably when you're negotiating a fight. And the week of, and the promote, the press conference.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  And the week of fight, or maybe, and you might go to the gym once because you've got so many shows on. That's the amount you see them. The people they spend their time with is their family and their trainers.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  They're the ones who, you know, are them. So they can see what's going on and some, and for some reason, we, we sometimes are the last people to know when a boxer's even injured.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Really? You just don't know?

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Cause they think they're gonna get over it. Don't tell me, cause I'm gonna cancel it. Cause I say to them.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  You're gonna say, well, this is too risky, right?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  I, I, I said, don't tell me afterwards. I'm not interested in your excuses afterwards, why you lost the fight. Tell me before, we can always postpone it and put it back.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  The fighters that you have like worked with and looked after, I'm just gonna run through some of the big names, right? Tyson Fury.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Joe Calzaghe.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Mike Tyson.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Prince of Seem, as you said.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Joe Calzaki, Ricky Hatton.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Joe Calzaghe, unbelievable.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Great fighter.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  Calzaghe didn't lose, did he?

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Never lost a fight.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Never lost a fight. I watched the documentary on Calzaghe.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Phenomenal. Like the way they used to fight was like slapping almost.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Well, it was. And what happened? That was, his dad became his trainer.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  And the fact he was his dad, it made him, I think he got a lot out of him.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Cause that's a, cause family dynamics, I think that's a problem.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  It can be a bad thing. It can be a bad thing and it can be a good thing. Depends, you know, there's all sorts. I mean, look at the relationship with Ricky and his dad.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Was pretty, become quite toxic at the end. And obviously it affected his life and it was a shame. But people used to say Joe's as a slapper. There was a couple of journalists used to say, I said, Jerry slapped out 28 people or whatever it is, you know?

• 32:50Speaker 00

  He slaps hard.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  He could punch, yeah. But what it was, was when Enzo used to take him on the pads a lot. And when he took him on the pads, as Joe's throwing his, he'd be catching the punches. So what happened as he's throwing the punch.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  He's like, before he can get it there, it's there. But the power is, so where Joe's, ba, ba, ba, so it'd be bam, bam, bang, and ba, and then he's pushing, as he was pushing the pad, pads back, and suddenly there's the big hook or the big punch. So it'd be ba, ba, ba, ba, and then, and then he'd.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  That was a training technique.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Not really. It weren't. He'd done it despite his dad. You know what I mean? He did. Cause his dad wasn't, his dad done well as a trainer, but his dad wasn't, uh, you know, he wasn't an all, what I would say, an orthodox type of trainer.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  No, he wasn't.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  But his dad got a lot, you know, because of the dynamic of the parent, got a lot out of him because he's doing it for his dad as well as himself, you know? It's his dad in the corner. His dad looking at him. He's, you know, and that's what happened. And, and.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Do you think that's what separates?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Joe was a great fighter. Joe was a great fighter.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  Do you think that's what separates real champions is they are, they're fighting for, for more than?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, I think they're fighting for themselves. I mean, look, it's the loneliest place in the ring. Once that bell goes, you're on your own. You're there, aren't you? You're, I mean, you, you, no one's coming in to help you. You're in there, you know, you get, the bell goes, you gotta have discipline. You know, you're having a fight and you think about what a boxer does. You're in the middle, you, you, you're punching the granny out of each other. And suddenly a bell goes and you stop and walk back to the corner.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  It's crazy, isn't it?

• 34:14Speaker 01

  So you've got this discipline. You've got this, you know, the, the, this, this training, this training that you've got and, and, and the focus you've got to have. And to be in trouble and getting, and if you're in trouble, like seeing Tyson, when he got knocked down in that fight. By Wilder, you know, to go, go back to that corner and get his, and, and use it and go back to the corner and come back into it. You know, it's, it, that says a lot about them.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  Talking of like, um, Fury, right? That, that moment when he was knocked down by Wilder.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. First fight.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  First fight. And Tyson never lost.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Never lost. And then he was knocked down. You're watching there. You're, you, you're his promoter and you see him go down. What are you thinking in that moment?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  I've got to be honest with you. He was winning the fight. He'd gone down, he got a flash knockdown in the fight. Then he, that, it was the last round. And the one thing Wilder is, is a tremendous, tremendous puncher.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Big puncher.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  You know, statistically the hardest punch in heavyweight in the last 40, 50 years. Before the fight, the referee goes to each of the boxer's dressing room and he says to them, if you get knocked down, I'm gonna get you to stand up. I'm gonna look in your eyes and I'll, and I'm gonna, may tell you to take a step to the right or to the left. And then I'll tell you whether I'm gonna stop the fight or not.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  If you get up.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  So he knocked, he gets knocked down. Tyson's lying there, like arms out and, and. All Wilder's people are to this side of us, we're here, our team, they're there, his manager, Shelley Fink, and they're all up running to the ring. Everybody in the whole place thinks it's over.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  And I think it gets to about six or seven and then suddenly Tyson gets up. It's like, is it Robocop or one of those guys, you know, it goes down.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  The Terminator.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, Terminator. Yeah. So he's up and he's, and the referee looks at him and he, boom, and he box on. And Tyson comes and, and I remember Wilder, when he knocks him down, he's got a cut in his throat, goes back to the corner, he's doing all that. And then as he got up, I see Wilder's face. Wilder's sort of like his jaws dropped. And Tyson gets up and he gets back into the fight. And by the end of the round.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  He's winning it.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  He's on top and they gave it a draw. I mean, it was, Tyson won it all day long, but, and they're all, you know, they can, you know, his brothers, real nice. Shane and Uwe are screaming. I says, you're not gonna change the decision. Stop it. Let's all just be nice and calm. And they get a rematch. Just, it is what it is. You can't change it. It's nonsense. It don't matter what you, whatever you say.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  It's not gonna change it.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  It's not gonna change anything. And that was it. Just go with it. And then I said to Tyson afterwards, I can't believe it, how you done that? He said, Frank, he said, I couldn't feel my legs. He said, if I'd, he said, I was all right. He said, but if I got up, I'd have gone all over the place because I couldn't feel my legs. So he had the presence of mind to lie there till he could fill his legs and then get up. And that's what he did.

• 37:03Speaker 00

  Unbelievable.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  That's what he did.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Right. I've got to ask you about Tyson Fury versus AJ.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Do you think the fight will ever happen?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, provided they both win their next two fights. Next, sorry, the, the next fights they've got each, 100%.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Can I ask, I, I saw some news.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  I, I, is Tyson Fury still with you?

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've got a, we've got a relationship and we've got, we've worked very well. I mean, his fights, he's had, how many fights? He's had three fights with, on the Riyadh season.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  On, no, four fights, four fights on the, it'd be four, four fights now on the Riyadh season. And that's, and that, that with, uh, Turkey Alashake, His Excellency. He's the one who's been putting the money up for those fights. I mean, we've been, we've ran, ran those fights, uh, run the shows as promoters. But that's who's put the money up and, uh, my relationship with Tyson is perfect. I'm happy with it and it's worked.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  Do, that's a big fight. That's gonna be like a lot.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Massive fight, yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 00

  Massive fight. Can, can, maybe too personal question. What is the, in terms of money, what's the biggest fight you've ever put on?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  God, I'm trying to think. The biggest, the, the biggest grossing fight at Wembley. And the biggest event that's ever taken place at Wembley was, was, uh, Tyson V Dillian White. We broke all the box office records for any event, single day event, any event. Any event at all. Music event, any event. It, it still holds the record.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  What did it gross?

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a massive gross on the gate. It was, it was like, I, I, I'm not sure, something like 17, like 20 mil on the gate. It was a bit, I, I'm not sure that, but, but it was a, it was a massive event. Massive, massive event.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  Because you're seeing these rumors, right? You know, with like this whole like influencer boxing and Jake Paul and all these.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Can't stand all that shit.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  You're not a fan.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  It's not boxing. They're not professional. But look, I, I, I, I, like I say, if somebody's gonna go in a gym and, and the two guys are gonna fight each other, it's not licensed. Listen, I've done it. I've been both sides of the fence. These guys wouldn't have lasted five minutes back when I was doing this stuff.

• 39:15Speaker 00

  No way.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, would not last if I, but they go and do their best. They go and train. And I, I, I, anybody who gets in the ring, you got, you got to respect them for that. It's a brave thing to do. So they wanna go and do it. But that's not boxing. That's not boxing. I mean, all of it, the whole thing. I'm looking at people on there, you know, running at people and rugby diving them in the corner and.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  Do you think it's a disrespect to the sport?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I just, I, I, I, I think anybody who thinks it's boxing is a disrespect to the sport. It's like, um, anybody can be a, you can start your own TV thing, can't you? Just have a phone and go up and someone asks you questions. It's what, it happens now, doesn't it? There's no, there's no journalistic background or learning a trade.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  No, there isn't.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  There's nothing. And it's just, and with the boxing, which is a dangerous sport to, when, what I was, I worry about is that the influencers or whatever they call them, all the different people, whoever they are, they have a following. And these people got, think this is boxing.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  I know.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  I mean, you look at that and then look at, you know, the show the week before, which was on there, now, which is, at the fights running like you, or look at.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  It's chalk and cheese.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  It's not even, it doesn't even get the chalk.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  But good luck to Bud. Don't blame them. They can earn the limits. Their life and people wanna pay for it. God bless them. That's their thing. But for me, don't call it, that these guys just don't, it's not.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  I had, I just going back to that money, because it's just interesting about how much money these guys are making, right? I, I, when Anthony Joshua fought Jake Paul on Netflix.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Anthony Joshua was paid something about around 80 million. Does that sound about right?

• 40:49Speaker 01

  I don't think he got that much. I think he got a fu- less than that. But any, look, to fight Jake, Jake's a lovely fellow, by the way. Great promoter.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Great promoter.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  He knows how to do it.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  He knows how to do it. And he, and he does, and he's got a license and he has trained there. He is, you know, he has a professional boxer, but he's fighting a guy who's fought, who's a two-time world champion.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  That's what happened. He got in the ring and he done fair, I think he done well till the stoppage. He was doing okay for himself. You know, they both got a lot of money. They both got well paid and, and, uh, you know, AJ in America doesn't, he's not as big as Jake Paul is in America. He was like, he was the, the big attraction. Obviously over here, we, you know, we, we all know Frank.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  And he's a great promoter.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Sorry, we know AJ.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  And it's smart, isn't it? Because there's a promoter, you see it, Frank, because you're like, okay, you've got this person who everyone wants to see get knocked out. And then you've got this big sort of heavyweight who we all love.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Who'd come off of a, a, a big loss.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  So you're like, here we go.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Against our guy, Daniel Dubois.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it's a smart move.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Queensberry and Matrum again.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Can we just talk about, because I know we don't have too much long left. You know, um, the Hurns and the Warrens, it's like a family rivalry there.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  No, Barry, Barry reinvents history. He talks about, I see a thing he talks about, or someone told me in his book about how he tried to bribe my business back in the seventies. That's absolute bollocks. I never even knew him. I never, I never met Barry Hurn until I was introduced to him by ITV when he, because he'd just got early days of snooker. And I got introduced to him and they asked me if I'd get involved in the snooker, which I did. That's the first time I met him.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  And then you became, uh, business partners, right?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Us, IMG and him, we did this breakaway snooker tournament. Anyway, I, I come out of it fairly quickly. It wasn't what I expected. It wasn't what I was told it was.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  Do you, you guys had this, it was your company versus the Hurns company? And you had this sort of boxing box off?

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Well, what happened? Oh, that, yeah, that happened later. That was with, um, with, with Eddie, yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  And it was unbelievable. And you, you, it was your best fighters versus their best, best fighters?

• 42:50Speaker 01

  They picked their five and we picked our five.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  And what was the score in the end?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Uh, it, it was five fights and the captain, if the captain won, then you get double points and we won 10-0.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  Did that feel good?

• 43:07Speaker 01

  It was, I, I've got to be honest, I, it, it, it did. No, it was, it was good fun. We had a bit of like, and you know, when he took it well and, and, and I quite, you know, I, I, I, I sort of, because I never knew him and I only sort of listened to some of the stuff and people, what they sell you. But I found it to be all right. I found it to be okay. And I found it to be, uh, you know, we had, we had a couple of drinks and whatever. So it was good fun.

• 43:36Speaker 07

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• 44:07Speaker 05

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• 44:40Speaker 00

  How do you, how do you stay so grounded in a world which is not grounded? And it's all about showboating and it's all about kind of beating the next person and staying relevant. How do you stay grounded?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  I was just talking to Ella, Ellie, who's with me today, who came today. We were just talking about how, I won't even mention who it is, but Harry's changed so much and how people change.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Can I make a guess?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  You can make a guess, but you won't get any response, but.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  I reckon it's Tyson Fury.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  No, it's people, but anyway.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Oh, it's people. Okay. All right.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Eddie Hurn.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  But well, I, I don't, I think Eddie has changed. I mean, I didn't know Eddie. I only met him, uh, I only met him a couple of years ago because of this thing. I never, I knew his dad. I was partners with his dad for a short period of time. But, uh, you know, um, Eddie, Eddie, I, I, you know, I never met him. When I did meet him, um, my son done the introductions. George, who's the CEO of our business, he done the introductions and it was, you know, it was that. And then we had the, then we, it wound up, we had, because of what we were doing in Saudi, we wound up with this, uh, Queensberry V Matrum show.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  It's, I'm gonna get against that.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  I know you're gonna get to the result of that.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  I can't. Yeah. I think you were quite happy with the result, weren't you?

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Smacked his arse.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  We're gonna get into it. But how do you, like, how do you think you stay grounded? How do you do that?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  I definitely think you've got to just be yourself, you know?

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that's hard because you lose yourself sometimes, right?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  No, I don't. I mean, I, I, I, I, I don't. I think you've got to just, it's an old expression, just keep it real. Well, you know, I haven't got to impress anybody. You know, I, I, as long as I'm, I'm comfortable myself. I think people who do that sort of things, all those sort of things have that, I don't think they're comfortable with themselves. And they always have to put some sort of aura out or whatever it may be, what they are, shout, like, who shouts loudest, all that rubbish. It's what, I haven't got no time for that, the fights and all the, all the shouting out. You know, do your talking in the ring. Let's see what you do when you get in the ring. And sometimes it's like that in life. And just be yourself.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  That's really great. I think, I, I, I think the biggest problem we have is exactly that, is that we're not, the majority of us aren't quite comfortable in ourselves. We don't know ourselves. We feel like we have to get that validation by doing something big, brash, whatever it is. And actually.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  And telling everybody about it.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. But it's quite hard to be comfortable with yourself. So have you always been comfortable with yourself?

• 47:06Speaker 01

  I've never, I, I, I've always stood up for myself. So I'm okay with myself. And if I can't, and I, and I, even when, you know, from being a young fella, you know, I would never back down from anything, never have backed down. And even, even as I've got older and, and I'm talking about some cases physical, physical and, and physical when I got older with a couple of people. But, um, I always stood my ground. I stand my ground. And I always will stand my ground because that, that's how it is. You know, and if I've got a point of view that I believe in, then I'll stand my ground with my point of view. And, and I'll argue the point with somebody. You know, you're either, I'm either gonna, they're either gonna, we're either gonna compromise or not, whatever it may be. But, you know, at the end of the day, and they may, may change what I'm thinking.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  And if they do, then they've proved, you know, they've, they've, they've convinced me. And that's what you've got to do. Have an open mind.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  So, so Frank, have you, have you been in a fight before?

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had some fights when I was younger.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Not in the ring? Outside the ring?

• 48:03Speaker 01

  No, I've never had a fight in the ring. No, I told you, I never had the discipline to do that. My cousins, I had a couple of cousins who, who fought.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  So you, you've had a fight, what, on the street?

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I've had the fights on the street. I, I.

• 48:15Speaker 00

  Did you win?

• 48:17Speaker 01

  I always come through them.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  I always go, I remember when I was a kid, come out of a place in Liverpool Road. It was a pub and in those days, it was a disco on top of a pub. When I was only a kid, I was about fifteen, sixteen. We come down the stairs and there was a couple of older guys and I was standing there in this thing. And I remember this car pulled up and the back door opened. You know, you know, when something's gonna happen.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  And he got shot. And I was standing next to him, what a bleeding, what was that? And there was that little fracas going on, this car just pulled up. They must have been waiting for him to go out and banging went up near.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Did he survive?

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, he lost a few of his fingers and whatever and whatever.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  You also got shot.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Can you tell me what happened there?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a, at the time, I'd had a, with my partner, John Butrus, who was a, uh, Thomas Litter, he's a barrister now.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  And we built London Arena.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Uh, which is a twelve and a half thousand seat arena in, it was in Docklands on the Isle of Dogs. And, uh, I had a show on, only a small show in Bar, Barking. And, uh, I wanted to go and see the fight. So I said, come on, let's jump in the car and we went and we got there. And my chauffeur at the time, driver, he got lost. Anyway, eventually we, as he pulled in and as I got out the car, I heard a bang and I thought it was a car backfiring.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  I looked round and looked the other way and then I'll see this guy and he had a mask on and a gun in his hand. And he's, I thought he was, I thought it was a joke, to be quite honest. And he's standing, but he's about from, he's probably about twelve foot away, not close to me, about twelve foot away. And he's, and I thought, what's that? And then I heard a click.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  And then, then there was another bang and what happened? I turned myself, so the bullet hit me here in the chest and went out the side of my body and into my arm. And John, who's, I mean, you know, he's a Oxford, uh, he went to Trinity College Oxford. You know, he's a, he's a, you know, a top scholar there, brave guy, he just jumped on him. It was too far, cause I was, I was too far away. If I, if I, after the click, I think if he'd been nearer, I would have obviously had no choice to try and do something, but I was too far anyway. So now I can, all I can feel, I'm standing feeling this gurgling in my throat and it was where my lungs were filling up with blood. Cause it went through my lung.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  And, uh, and I remember at the time, I remember sort of, you know, going down on one knee. And, uh, a cab driver pulled, pulled up and he looked, and he said, and it was a, a, a Bob's sick who are, who, um, his name was Gary Davidson, who I promoted. He went, you're all right, Frank.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  I've been better.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Feeling marvellous. And, uh,

• 51:12Speaker 01

  then, anyway, I went over and what happened here, they went and got the dots, cause we have dots at the fight. So I went and got them, one of the dots came out. And he said, he said to me, have you got a handkerchief? And I'm like lying there, I'm trying to breathe and I've got a handkerchief. He said, hold that on you. So I'm holding this, I'm lying black and I've got this bullet in my chest or gone through me. And, uh, I said, I said, the ambulance, the ambulance was on strike back then. So they put me in the back of an old police, my black, no, well, not black, you know, police van. And a bundle lifted me up, put me in the thing and I feel I'm starting to get dizzy now. And then they, then we, and he had to do a, I always remember it's a three point circle of flim. He was banging up the pavement, I'm going off.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  And eventually they, they had to take me to like a hospital that can deal with that sort of thing. And the nearest place was appropriately, the hospital appropriately named the shooters in Shooter's Hill. So that's where I wound up. So I went in there, then when I got my wife Susan, this is what I'm being told afterwards. And they told her, it's like fifty fifty, whoever I'll make it through the night and all that stuff. And so she had a lot of concern, she was pregnant. And, uh, she, anyway, I remember the next day I woke up in hospital. I always remember as I was going to the, they're taking me to the theatre. My uncle now is there, he's, he's there, my dad. And you're lying flat and you're seeing all the lights, you know, the fluorescent lights. It was like a, you know, like a, a strobe effect, if you know what I mean, okay?

• 52:39Speaker 01

  And they said, right, and they said, and I just said to my, I said, don't let her knock me out. And I felt if, if I was knocked out, I did, that's, I thought, am I getting? Cause I feel like, I can feel that I'm trying to resist it, but I, well, anyway, cut a long story short, I had to do that. And I woke up the next day with like drains in my lungs and where they done, took the bullet out and everything. And I'm sorry, done all the repair work and everything. And that was it.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  When you come that close to dying, what does that do to you as a person?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  I didn't think about, even then, you know, I didn't think, you know, when afterwards, there's a lot of negative stuff in the newspapers about why it happened. I had sued about, well, sued, I think about five newspapers, which they all had to settle with me. Um, cause it was just ridiculous, the things that were being said and whatever, you know, all quotes without anyone's names.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  What were they saying?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Uh, that it was, uh, that a gun had been used in a previous shooting. And which it hadn't, and, and it was over, it was over, uh, it was a gang that had done it. It was just a lot of nonsense. There's lots of stuff, but anyway, I'm front page on a couple of them. And the apologies like that end up, you know, it's like a couple of paragraphs in the papers. But, but I, I, again, I wouldn't stand for it and I got, and I got a bit of a, I suppose then a bit of a reputation for not, for anything.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  Anything you're not gonna stand for it.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  So I wouldn't stand for it, yeah.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Do you, did you find out, why did, why did the shooting happen?

• 54:07Speaker 01

  It was a lunatic. It was a lunatic. At the time I didn't know, but I found out very quickly after, I didn't know before the trial. I found out after the trial who it was and that was it.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  You know, you've been married for forty years, is that right?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  I've been ma, I got married in eighty three, so it's forty three years. I've been with Susan for forty seven years.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  What's the secret to a happy marriage?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Well, I've had my, we've had our ups and downs, I suppose, everybody, but the secret to a happy marriage is letting her get her own way.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  She'll be happy then. That's it.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Cause you know, Susan had to deal with that when you be, you were shot, she was pregnant at the time of the shooting.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  That's pretty tough on.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  Well, it was dreadful. I mean, and you know, afterwards, I, you know, that's, I remember she was at the hospital. And, uh, I remember like, I'd sort of come round and she was at the bedside and whatever. And you, and you, it was awful, it was an awful time for her. And, uh, and my uncle and my dad, they wanted to go and bloody sort it out. And I said, leave it. I said, I don't want anybody doing anything, you know, let, it will take its course and, you know, get worked out. And it did.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  Who was the biggest influence you've ever grown up, when you were growing up?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  My uncle Bob.

• 55:19Speaker 00

  Really?

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Very, very, um, straight man, well, I mean, straight man, very straightforward, very, yeah, to the point. Massive, um, principles, you know, principles, very well, very, very well liked and respected. I mean, you know, amongst his friends and people, very, very well respected and a massive, you know, when he passed away, it was a massive, massive turnout, massive funeral. Cause he was so well loved and liked and a loyal man and, uh, not a liberty taken, you know, never liked to see any, any, um, any liberties taken whatsoever. And, you know, very respectful and talk, you know, for me, taught me a lot about, you know, respects and listening to other people's opinions, not, you know, being

• 56:02Speaker 01

  like how some people certainly was when the world, I grew up, you know, that like, forget about him, he's, you know, he's got no style, he's got no, you know, he's not a decent person.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  When, when someone that influenced you in your life passes away, that, that hits you quite hard, I imagine, right?

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. You miss them because you miss the, you know, it used to be the fun, especially like, you know, when I was younger, I'd see him all the time. As you get older, you're travelling, you know, you're, and it's phone calls and I miss them, the catch-ups and popping up to see him. He was a, he was a lovely man.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting that, I, I always think about this now for some reason, I don't know why, but like, you, when, when you're younger, you feel like life is not temporary, you feel like it goes on forever.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  And it goes like that.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  I know, doesn't it?

• 56:45Speaker 01

  It just flies by. I mean, I look round and I just think to them, you know, this one's gone, that one's gone. And, you know, I'm older, so I can, you know, people have, all the old ones, all my, all of, all the, all my uncles, aunts, all of them are gone now. Every one of them, you know, and they've had, they had good lives and all that, but it's, it's just what happens and it flies by. And suddenly I've, I mean, I've got twelve grandchildren. So you, it's just, and they're, I mean, I, I love it. I love it, yeah, love it, yeah. It's just great.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  Do you know what, Frank, I, I, I have this, someone told me this amazing quote, right? Which is not even a quote, it's just a way to look at life. And I was talking to them, it was like, how, how do you like judge success? And he said, very simple, if your table gets longer, you're successful. And it's such a great way to look at it. If your table gets longer, family, colleagues, friends, whoever it is, that's it.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  That's it, and happiness.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  And that's it. You know, I've seen so many miserable kids, you know, in my life who've got money and that and don't enjoy stuff. I, I, I still got my friends from Islington, we still meet up and have a, kind of our lunch.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  Do you really?

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  What, like every month or what?

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, every month, six weeks. And we're out and we sit down and they, and we're all equals, you know, they're all different, come from different backgrounds. Couple of them were cab drivers, couple of them a little bit, you know, the boys, but they're all, you know, and I enjoy it. They, they were, that, we grew up.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  It's just like, Frank, it's a real honour to sit with you.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  It's an honour to sit with you.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  No, it's, it's really not for you, but it is for me, I promise you. Because it's just like I said before, you, you've lived this, you have so much of this like history and just seeing all these different things and talking about these people that I, that we all love and wish we had known and wish we had seen and you've sort of seen it all. It's kind of amazing.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been, I've been blessed. I said earlier, I met people I never thought, I mean, I never thought I'd be promoting Frank Sinatra, I promoted Frank Sinatra. I never thought I'd be, uh, meeting Nelson Mandela, being invited by him to go to his house, fly over to his house to meet him. I mean, you know, I've been lucky, been really good.

• 58:42Speaker 00

  What is that moment that you've had in your life that it was a real pinch me moment? You're like, wow, this is actually happening.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  I think Nelson Mandela.

• 58:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Who I think is the most impressive person I ever met. Without a doubt, yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  How many years in prison? Eighteen years, wasn't it, in prison?

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think the guy who was his prison guard was head of his security. Can you imagine how he got?

• 59:05Speaker 01

  He was just an amazing man. I've done, made Nigel Benn against Sugar Boy Malinga for the world title, and Sugar Boy Malinga beat Nigel Benn. And on the following Monday, I get, my office gets a call and it's Nelson Mandela's office. And would I go and meet him in Joburg? And I thought it was a joke. Someone's taken a piss. And cut a long story short, the next day I'm in, in his house in Johannesburg and he's this, he had big feet. He was a, he was quite a tall guy and he was so gentle and he had this aura around him.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Really?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Calmness, you know, like of niceness.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know what you mean.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  And it was, I really, really, I was, couldn't believe it. And I was talking to him. And he said to me, I want to thank you for all you've done for South African boxing for Sugar Boy Malinga. I said, I've got to be honest with you, Nelson. I wanted Nigel to win.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  And he just laughed and we had some photos done and I went home and I thought, bloody hell, what was that all about? It was just marvelous.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Isn't that amazing?

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Big boxing fan he was. He talked about it all the time. And he, he, he'd done some paintings when he was in, on the, on the island, you know, the prison island he was on. He'd done some paintings and they did a limited edition first print and I, and people, I knew the people in the gallery. And I, and they said, would I buy, do I want the first, the first limited? And I said, yes. I said, but I want him to inscribe each one where I'm going to get a quote out of his book for each of the things that he said. And he hand wrote them to me and put them on there. So I was thrilled with that.

• 1:00:30Speaker 00

  Do you know what? One of the greatest quotes, and I'm sure it's Nelson Mandela, which is drinking poison, uh, seeking revenge is like drinking poison and one of the other person to die.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Great stuff.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Oh, isn't that great? Let it go.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Great man. Look what he, look what he did.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  Do you, do you, do you hold on to, uh, do you let things go?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  I never used to. If I, as I said, I'd, if I'd never, I would be, I can't let it happen. Um, I'm a big believer in karma now.

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  In two ways. Be calm and it will happen. Cause the world keeps spinning around. Somebody does a bad turn, I don't care who it is, they always get found out at the end. Always.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  And I imagine like Frank, like with all your success, you've had moments as well, cause I think it's like interesting though, cause I think in life we see the end product, right? You, you watch Usain Bolt do the hundred meters and you just think, oh, he's just, he's quick, he's done that. You see David Beckham score the free kick. You don't see.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Sacrifice.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  You don't see the sacrifice. You've had moments where you think you're down and out, haven't you?

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been, I mean, the shooting and everything fell apart, London Arena, everything. I was flying at the time and we was really, we had, I mean, the arena, we had a value on it then with the banks that was, we were selling it to for nearly eighty million, which was a fortune back then. And we wound up with Zilch, but and you had to keep, keep working, keep working, you know, live to fight another day. That's what you have to do. Keep.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  You never give up. Keep going, keep going, keep going.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  No choice, cause I've got family and what am I gonna do? Go home and feel sorry for myself? Get out there and do it. It's better than living on a full floor in Priory Green.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  Your proudest moment? What is it?

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Um, my kids. I'm proud of them all and they, and when I look at them, they, you know, they fill me with pride.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  I've just had a baby.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Have you? Congratulations.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Why? My wife, my wife has.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  We helped.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  I helped a little bit.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  It might have been.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Were you a boy or a girl?

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  Boy.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Lovely. What's his name?

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  Ziggy.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  That's a good name.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, and you know what Frank? It's, it's, your whole, my whole mentality has changed.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Of course it has.

• 1:02:27Speaker 00

  It's like, you know, from, from appetite for risk, in terms of my own physical risk, like I, I won't take as many risks anymore. And you wanna get home to see it. It's just amazing. Everything changes.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  There's nothing better than, than, you know, it's being, grow up and it happens, and as I mentioned earlier, everything goes like this.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Does it really?

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Watching them grow up, they grow up and seeing them develop and looking at their, the good things they do. You look at some of the things and they're always, you've always got a problem with kids, don't matter how old they are. They're your kids and that's what it is. But that's, that's life. You know, we all go on our journeys and you've just got, you've got to try and help them, guide them and look after them.

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  So what advice would you give me for being a good parent?

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Give time. I, I, I, you know, when I, when I look back, that's one of the things I regret. Cause I was so focused on being successful, you know, when I mean by successful is, is making sure things worked. And you've got to give, you know, you've got to spend so much time. Yeah. And that was it. And I travelled a lot cause the shows were all over the place. And that, that's one of the things I didn't spend as much time, you know, is give as much time. I think, you know, I look at my, my, I look at my sons, my daughter, especially my sons, cause they're, a couple of them work in the business. And I look at the time they give their kids and how good they are with their kids. Like getting the balance right.

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  You know, be there to, you know, I'm not saying I worked there. I was, I mean, as bad as much as I could be there for work, but you know, just be there and support them. And, you know, we've got a good, you know, we've got a good family. Our kids, they're all, Eric's quite a tight family in there. And I think the most important thing is showing love. That's what it's all about. Kids wanna be loved.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  Couldn't agree more. Frank, listen, thank you so much. I appreciate everything. We end the conversation with eight quickfire questions. You ready?

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Go on.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Here we go. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Good morning.

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, come on.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Means I'm here.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  There we go, Frank. Listen, I also, not that you're, you're a little bit older than me, you, you, you look incredibly fit.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  I'm seventy-four.

• 1:04:21Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Old geezer. Ancient.

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  You look incredibly fit. Just gonna leave it there.

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  All right, here we go. Best compliment anyone's ever given you?

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  You look fit.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  What scares you most about yourself?

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  That I don't look fit.

• 1:04:39Speaker 00

  You might like it. When was the last time you cried?

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Blimey, when was that? I think with my, uh, with my granddaughter, the other, when was it? A little while ago. She made me laugh so much. It was very touching.

• 1:04:51Speaker 00

  That's beautiful. I love that. That's amazing. What's your guilty pleasure?

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  I love my wine. I, I, I, I love going out, dining, wine with good friends. That's my guilty pleasure.

• 1:05:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the best, right?

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  My thing.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  What's something you can't let go of?

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Life.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Perfect answer. What turns you off?

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Arseholes.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  What turns you on?

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Nice people.

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  I thought you were gonna say assholes.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Nice assholes.

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  What do you like most about yourself?

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  I, I don't even think about that. That's a difficult one. What I know like, like about myself? I like wine.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  There you go. Frank Warren, thank you so much. You are fantastic company. I really appreciate it. Unbelievable. Mate, that is fantastic. How you doing? Take a hand.

• 1:05:58Speaker 07

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