MICHELLE KENNEDY: Becoming a Mum Inspired Me to Build a Community of 5 Million Women | FOUNDERS FRIDAY

Michelle Kennedy is the founder and CEO of Peanut, one of the fastest growing social apps for women. I started Great Company because I wanted to connect with people again. Despite being more connected than ever online, many of us have never felt lonelier. That's how Michelle felt after becoming a mum to her son, Finn. Instead of accepting that loneliness, she decided to build the community she wished she'd had. That's how Peanut was born. Since launching in 2017, Peanut has grown to over 5 million registered users, offering women a safe space to ask questions, find support and build connections through every stage of life. In this conversation, Michelle shares: Her journey from law to dating app companiesWhy she left Bumble to start her app, PeanutWhat she thinks makes a great leader and entrepreneurHow Peanut grew from an idea into a community of over 5 million womenThe one piece of advice she'd give every founder Michelle is proof that some of the best businesses start by solving problems you've lived yourself. Michelle Kennedy is Great Company. If you enjoyed the show, you can also follow us: Instagram – @greatcompanypodcast TikTok – @greatcompanypodcast Jamie – @jamielaing And if you’ve got thoughts, questions and comments, you can email us at: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] THE CREDITS Producers: Helen Burke Assistant Producer: Issy Weeks-Hankins Video: Josh Bennett & Emma Gill Senior Social Media Manager: Laura Coughlan Audio: Rafi Amsili Geovannetti Executive Producer: Ewan Newbigging-Lister Great Company is an original podcast from JamPot. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 2:17Speaker 05

  When Bumble started, did you know it was going to be a hit?

• 2:21Speaker 06

  I knew we were doing something special.

• 2:23Speaker 05

  Why? So you've built Peanut. How many users do you have now?

• 2:27Speaker 06

  Five million.

• 2:29Speaker 05

  Now that's insane.

• 2:30Speaker 06

  20,000 women downloaded the app in three hours. Imagine all those people who told me that women didn't need their own app and weren't lonely or they didn't. And 20,000 women told us, yeah, we do.

• 2:42Speaker 05

  Wow. Why did you set it up?

• 2:45Speaker 06

  I was very lonely because my girlfriends didn't have babies and I didn't know what I was doing truly. I so remember not wanting to leave the house. I so remember it because Finn would cry and then if he cried, people would think that I'm not a good mom. I thought I was a monster. I was like, there is something wrong with me.

• 3:04Speaker 05

  Hey guys, welcome back to the final episode of Founders Friday. We really hope you enjoyed it. Now, before we start, I want to ask a favor from you guys. If you've really enjoyed these episodes, there's only been four of them. We want to know if you want us to continue them. Okay. And the way we want you to let us know is if you can comment in the comment section. If you think you'd like this, if you want to see more, if you want to see more founders, more of these stories being told, please let us know in the comments and then we will take your decision. Today's episode, the final episode is Michelle Kennedy. She's a great friend of mine. She's a lawyer who went on to help start dating apps like Bumble. And she has now built Peanut, one of the fastest growing female apps in the entire world. She's incredible. She's a great human and a great friend.

• 3:47Speaker 05

  And today's episode is full of so much information you're going to love. Now also before we start, if you can click that subscribe button, it takes one second. It's completely for free and it does us wonders. I can't even tell you. If you can do that one thing, thank you. And don't forget to comment if you'd like this series and you want it to continue. Okay, here we go. Enjoy this incredible last Founders Friday episode with Michelle Kennedy. We've met a few times now and I would call you a friend. I don't know what you would call me.

• 4:15Speaker 06

  I would call you a friend.

• 4:16Speaker 05

  Okay, well then we're on an equal stage. I would call you a friend.

• 4:19Speaker 06

  I would call you someone I know. No, I would call you a friend.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  And I first came across you because of your amazing business you have, which is Peanut, which I'm going to murder the description of it, but this is my description. It's a app, it's a community. You basically have an app which creates a community for women.

• 4:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:41Speaker 05

  And I came across it because I was interested in different things and different social groups and everything. And I came across and saw how amazing you were doing with it. And then over the years, we've become much closer and we see each other occasionally. And I find it amazing, the resilience that you have had over the years to keep building and building and building. And that sort of never give up attitude because Peanut started in 2017.

• 5:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:04Speaker 05

  Which is mad.

• 5:05Speaker 06

  Yeah. It's crazy, isn't it?

• 5:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is crazy. Why did you start it?

• 5:10Speaker 06

  So I was building dating apps and I loved it. I thought it was so, how fun. It was so cool. It was the best time of my life.

• 5:19Speaker 05

  What year is this?

• 5:20Speaker 06

  So this is like, uh, let's say 2010.

• 5:25Speaker 05

  Okay. So it's just the beginning of when apps were becoming something.

• 5:29Speaker 06

  Exactly. In fact, it was pre App Store. We didn't have an app. So it was, uh, things were web and you would have like mobile web, but it was just coming up to like the App Store, like in the form that we know it.

• 5:43Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 5:44Speaker 06

  And, um, so I remember that time and it was a totally different time, but it was so exciting. I joined this company and there were like 30 engineers sitting in a room in Denmark Street in Soho. I was like, what is this place? It's so strange and everyone's drinking Red Bull and headphones on, locked in, writing code. I was like, wow, this is interesting. And it was dating and also that wasn't what it is now. You know, we, we talk about dating as if it's like totally socially acceptable, but it wasn't at the time. It was kind of weird to meet someone online. That was the social.

• 6:18Speaker 05

  What was the website called?

• 6:19Speaker 06

  It was called Badoo. And yeah, there was just this general feeling that people met online. That's a bit gross.

• 6:26Speaker 05

  A bit weird right at the time.

• 6:28Speaker 06

  And then everything kind of started to change, like the social perception of what it meant to meet online was changing. And we were really in it and at the forefront of it and I loved it. It was so exciting. We were building things that, you know, we were using, um, different interfaces that people hadn't seen before. You would put something in someone's hand and watch how they used it. That was so exciting to me, like to watch what they were doing and how they navigated around. I was like so energized by it. And then Tinder came out and totally changed everything, really.

• 7:03Speaker 05

  But just quickly, so you, you were sort of, you had these dating websites, but you weren't, were you the person with Red Bull with headphones on?

• 7:10Speaker 06

  No way. I wish I was. I think next life, that would be me.

• 7:15Speaker 05

  You went from being a lawyer, right?

• 7:16Speaker 06

  I was a lawyer. Yeah. So I went in and everyone, again, what a weird like situation for the lawyer to walk in and be like, so what are you guys doing? And it's like a police person asking you what you're doing. Everyone's like, uh, because they'd never had to interact with the lawyer before. So everyone told me everything.

• 7:32Speaker 05

  Was it all men?

• 7:34Speaker 06

  Pretty much, yeah. And so everyone just told me because they were like, well, the lawyer's asking, so you have to kind of tell her what we're doing. But it was just because I'm nosy and I want to know what's going on and like to understand. And then you start to really get to grips with this business.

• 7:47Speaker 05

  What I found, so you, you, you have a strong mind. You grew up in Peterborough. You study?

• 7:53Speaker 06

  Law.

• 7:53Speaker 05

  Law, where?

• 7:54Speaker 06

  Sheffield.

• 7:55Speaker 05

  Sheffield. You come out and then you do different things and then you find your way into this dating world. What kind of drew you towards it?

• 8:03Speaker 06

  So I was working in private practice. I was a corporate lawyer. And I'd gone to work for a different company, Biotech, totally different as a, like a client of ours. And one of the lawyers I used to work for called me and was like, Michelle, there's this, it's a dating website. I was like, absolutely not. No way. Firstly, my mom will kill me. Definitely not. And, uh,

• 8:26Speaker 05

  Are you single at the time?

• 8:28Speaker 06

  Single at the time.

• 8:29Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 8:30Speaker 06

  And I was like, definitely, definitely not what I'm going to do. And I went and I was like, this is kind of cool. I'm maybe going to join. And, and in fairness, they'd started to hire some like quite serious other executives. So there was a CEO they were hiring and a CFO. And so I was going in as GC and it made sense that we would go in. And the view was at that point, we were going to kind of wrap it and sell it. And then it kind of changed my life and I became obsessed with it. And I started working next to the founder and became his right hand. And then, as I said, Tinder came out and changed everything and we were like, we have to do something different.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  Why do you think you got an obsession over it? Because I think. It feels like you saw an opportunity.

• 9:20Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 9:20Speaker 05

  You, you, you went in there, you saw people with headphones on, drinking Red Bull, coding, at a time when that must have felt very exciting.

• 9:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was exciting.

• 9:30Speaker 05

  Because it feels different and, and knowing you as I know you, you're an innovator. You, you, you see opportunities before people see opportunities. So you must have seen that as like, okay, this is something interesting going on here.

• 9:42Speaker 06

  I definitely thought there was an energy.

• 9:44Speaker 05

  But what, what type of energy? Because is it, is it the money? Is it the people? Is it the connection? Because that, what, what excited you truthfully about it?

• 9:52Speaker 06

  It was so different to anything I knew. I was coming from a very corporate world where I wore a suit every day. And I would sit around a, you know, a boardroom full of guys in suits. And that was a very different world. And I walked in and I was like, this energy is interesting. Also, like, there's something interesting. If you're a lawyer.

• 10:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:14Speaker 06

  For anyone who has kind of been in that world, there is kind of a status that comes with that, where you're kind of, I'm a professional and you have like this like professional status. And you walk into that room and the energy is like, we're builders. And that's a totally different energy. And that's really, to me, that was like exciting. And yeah, I wanted a part of that.

• 10:38Speaker 05

  Explain that to me. So when you're, when you're a lawyer, you have a, it's a professional status. What do we? Because if someone says you're a lawyer, you kind of go, oh.

• 10:45Speaker 06

  That.

• 10:46Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 10:47Speaker 06

  So you kind of have that like, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm a very serious professional person. At least in my head, that's how I always perceived it to be. It was quite a serious job. And that's not to say that what the Eng team, well, that was serious, but it was like, I don't know.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  There's something interesting about that, which is you're, you're right, that being a lawyer does, for whatever reason, give off that status. Because automatically you think in your head, educated, smart.

• 11:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 05

  Uh, driven.

• 11:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:15Speaker 05

  Probably quite ruthless. Because that's what's depicted on TV, film. That's what we know what lawyers are. Lawyers are these people that are.

• 11:22Speaker 06

  Bad ass.

• 11:22Speaker 05

  They're bad asses.

• 11:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 05

  And they are, are leaders because we don't know about the law and so they're going to help us.

• 11:27Speaker 06

  They do.

• 11:28Speaker 05

  And they do.

• 11:28Speaker 06

  And they do. And you have to know everything and they do and we know and this is how you do it. And it's, it, and it is quite a different thing to, we don't know, but we're going to figure it out. And that's the energy that is different, I think.

• 11:42Speaker 05

  Why did you go into law?

• 11:44Speaker 06

  Oh, you know, the, the, just the whole feeling of, um, mum, my mum being like, you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you can be a teacher, you can be an accountant, be a professional, earn your own money, never rely on a man, you know.

• 11:59Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 12:00Speaker 06

  Just really having that in my head. So I was like, okay. And I just couldn't have done the other one. So I went for the one that I thought I could do. And then it was the era of like Ally McBeal and all these, you know, I just thought I was going to walk around the office in little skirts and, you know, I don't know, go to court, which I never, I never did. I never did. I wasn't a litigation lawyer, like ridiculous. But in my head, that's what I thought I was going to do.

• 12:25Speaker 05

  So going from, taking the leap from corporate lawyer.

• 12:28Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 12:29Speaker 05

  To deputy CEO.

• 12:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 05

  Of the dating.

• 12:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 05

  Website. How was that change? How was that for you?

• 12:39Speaker 06

  So I think that the, the change was gradual. It wasn't like one day I was a lawyer and the next day I was CEO and it now run the business. It was more like, um, I'm nosy. I am kind of wanting to understand more. Um, I'm asking questions. Andre, the founder of Badoo, saying, huh, come and do this bit with me then. Okay. And working on things together. And it was way more gradual than that.

• 13:06Speaker 06

  So I, I think by the time it had happened, you almost don't notice it's happening.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, because it's so gradual.

• 13:13Speaker 06

  It's just a kind of, of course I'll take on that responsibility. No one else is doing it. I'll grab it. Of course I'll set that function up because it doesn't exist, so I'll just do it.

• 13:21Speaker 05

  How many users did you have?

• 13:23Speaker 06

  When I joined, fifty two million and I'd never heard of it before. Can you imagine? You join.

• 13:29Speaker 05

  Fifty two.

• 13:29Speaker 06

  Fifty two million. We had like a little ticker on the website and I'd never heard of this website before. Badoo, I was like, what's that? The Chinese like website.

• 13:38Speaker 05

  Were they, were they paying customers?

• 13:40Speaker 06

  Uh, no, so they were registered users, but we were profitable. We were making hundreds of millions a month in.

• 13:45Speaker 05

  Because you were selling advertising on the website.

• 13:47Speaker 06

  No, because we were monetizing users. It was not ad based. So this was users paying to access other users, send messages. It was a game.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  Wait, hang on, explain this to me. So that's, so you have the dating website.

• 14:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 05

  Badoo, you would, as a user myself, I would go onto it.

• 14:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 05

  I would say, great, I'm now, now on, registered on this website. If I want to talk to someone else or do that, I wouldn't have to pay in order to do that.

• 14:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 05

  Wow, so it is a game.

• 14:15Speaker 06

  It was a game and there were layers to the game.

• 14:17Speaker 05

  And dating is a game anyway.

• 14:18Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 14:19Speaker 05

  So you make it a fun user existence.

• 14:22Speaker 06

  So at the time, before it was in-app purchase and, you know, we're all so familiar with in-app purchase and subscription now, but at the time, and this is kind of the, the learning I had and how obsessed I was with what we were doing. Because Andre was a genius, he is a genius, very clever guy. And he would have like SMS. So you would have a short code. So I don't know if you remember that, but you could text eight, three, three, five and get a ringtone.

• 14:49Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:49Speaker 06

  But we had a short code to text you. So to get to the other person, I couldn't text you. I had to have a short code. Well, every time you're doing that, one pound fifty, one pound fifty, one pound fifty. It was incredible. And no one was using short codes like that. And by the way, when we were asking the carrier for the short code, they were like, no, that's not what it's for. And Andre was like, no, I'm aware of what it's for, but that's how I want to use it. And, and that's the, the power of, well, if you say no, I'll just go to the next carrier and the next carrier and the next carrier. And we ended up with a Spanish carrier who said yes. And it was just that unbelievable kind of determination that I was like, okay, this is how we do it.

• 15:33Speaker 06

  We just don't accept that no is the answer.

• 15:36Speaker 05

  Andre founder CEO.

• 15:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 05

  What was so impressive about, because he's a, he's done a lot of businesses.

• 15:42Speaker 06

  Yes, it's, so Badoo was his third big one.

• 15:45Speaker 05

  Wow. Uh. Third big one.

• 15:47Speaker 06

  Big one, yeah. He, uh, what makes him, he, he's, you underestimate him. That's what I think is the genius.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  Explain that to me.

• 15:57Speaker 06

  He's, he's quiet.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 15:59Speaker 06

  Uh, he's watching everything. Body language, how you interact with things. He's, he's observing.

• 16:08Speaker 06

  And his, his temperament feels mild. It's not mild, but it feels mild. So he has this kind of aura of like, young. He, he seems young and youthful. But he's kind of brilliant and he's dogged and he just doesn't let anything go. And if you tell him no, he, he would, what he doesn't say is, oh, okay. What he does is think you're not the person to deliver and he discounts you. And that's a really interesting like way to learn from someone. Because I didn't dare go and say no to Andre.

• 16:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's, what do you think, what do you think is the kind of like, um, the one thing that you see in entrepreneurs?

• 16:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 05

  Or leaders that typically have the same thing?

• 16:56Speaker 06

  I think it's, um, there isn't an option to fail.

• 17:02Speaker 05

  Yes, relentless.

• 17:03Speaker 06

  It's, it's just relentless. And I always remember actually an investor of mine who I really admire and he, him saying to me, actually the strength is knowing when to walk away, like in a business. The strength is knowing when you draw the line and you walk away. And I respect that and I can, I can see that.

• 17:21Speaker 06

  But I just, yeah, I just have never had that. I don't really, I don't know how to do that. You just go and you just make it, you're just going to keep going.

• 17:29Speaker 05

  Well, you say that because Badoo is a hu, was huge. It was doing great. It was doing amazing.

• 17:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 05

  But then you go and set up your own thing.

• 17:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 05

  So you do sort of leave and, and in a way, what you do, which I admire, and I think there's, there is truth in that, which is where you need to know the right moment to change, to adapt. And I see a lot of people, I think the big problem that we have in society is that suddenly people wake up in their thirties or forties and they've been doing the same thing for the 20 years. And they're just like, why am I doing this thing that I'm not really enjoying or liking? Or why am I here doing this? And we get into this cycle. But for you, what I find amazing is that you become a lawyer, you move to a dating website, you then go and set up your own business.

• 18:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 05

  And so you're slightly always constantly changing to follow what you want to do, which is amazing.

• 18:13Speaker 06

  Yes, but I, I, I think that makes it sound like more deliberate than I think it was. I don't think it was as deliberate as, as that. And I don't want anyone to think that it was as deliberate as that, because then they start to feel pressure like, oh, you must know the route. And I didn't know the route. I just knew and instinct is huge, I think, and I really rely on it. Yeah, you just kind of instinctively know this is the thing, this is the time, this is the moment. I met Andre that first time and he took me for lunch and he was having spaghetti carbonara. It's such a weird vivid memory. And I was like, this is so weird. He, he looks so young, like baby faced. And he's eating spaghetti carbonara quite like a baby, like quite little.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 06

  And he's this really powerful guy. And he was like, you like spaghetti carbonara? And I was like, I can't, yeah, I don't mind it. It's not my favorite, but sure. And, and you know, it was one of, I, I just remember it so vividly, but I knew instinctively it was the right move. And by the time, and there are other things that happened, you know, we then built what became Bumble. And I remember meeting Whitney for the first time. And instinctively I was like, I, I, I don't know, she had something where she could hold, she'd look you in the eye very intently and be like, mid-conversation, she'd be like, I love your eyelashes. Mid-conversation about business. And I'd be like, wow. And there was something about.

• 19:39Speaker 05

  Perspective almost. Like, so it's like, it's interesting. It makes you think differently or, ah, that's a clever way of interviewing almost.

• 19:45Speaker 06

  And, and I was like, wow, so smart. What a clever person. So you know, you just start to, and then instinctively I knew that that was going to be something like very meaningful. And when I left to start Peanut, I didn't know that it was going to be like this mission and this, my obsession that it is now. But I knew that the timing was that I just instinctively had to do it then, or I, I might not. Do it.

• 20:13Speaker 05

  Whitney Wolfe gets a lot of the credit for starting Bumble. But it's, I don't think a lot of people know that you were there from the, right at the start of it.

• 20:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 05

  What I find really interesting about what you said is what Whitney obviously did in interviews. She shifts the perspective or makes you remember her in a certain way.

• 20:29Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 20:29Speaker 05

  And that is really important as an interview technique, I always think. You say, if you're having an interview with someone, how do you get them to remember you? How do you stand out from the crowd? And I remember speaking to this guy who runs a big VC firm and he was trying to hire a new person. And I actually interviewed him years ago for just a chat on a podcast. And I said, how's your day been? He says, really good. And I just chatted to this really interesting guy. And I said, why was he interesting? And he said, well, we're having a chat and we were talking and he was good and I liked him. I was trying to hire him for part of the team or trying to hire someone for part of the team. And halfway through, I said, well, you know, and how's life? How's everything going? And he said, well, at the moment, my anxiety is really quite high. I have, I have anxiety and I have this thing with GAD and he started talking about it.

• 21:14Speaker 05

  And because the interviewee became more human during the interview, my friend who, who was trying to hire, then hired him because it felt like it wasn't just an interview. And what Whitney almost did in the interview is she became human within the interview, which is quite an interesting way to do it.

• 21:29Speaker 06

  It was such an amazing, it's disarming.

• 21:33Speaker 05

  Yes, it's disarming because people think you, people think you're going to just say the right answers. But actually saying, oh my God, your, your eyelashes look amazing today. Or what you, it, it's disarming. You suddenly go, well, were we friends?

• 21:43Speaker 06

  That's it. Oh, and you're human and like, what a, it's just disarming. But I always think that you're very disarming.

• 21:50Speaker 05

  Well, that's very kind.

• 21:51Speaker 06

  No, but I do. I remember when I saw you at the airport with my kids and you were so like, so gorgeous with Finn. And he was really like, you know, just like, who was that nice man? You know, and it was just like, I think being disarming actually is such a like, an incredible tool for anyone to have. Like be, being the person in the room who remembers say, how are you doing?

• 22:14Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 22:14Speaker 06

  Right. Or whatever it might be, how, you know, how was your night out the other night? Remembering a fact about them, like something. I actually, another thing that Whitney was very good at, she would remember details that I had told her about Finn months before. And she'd be like, oh, whatever happened with his rugby, rugby tots or whatever it was called. I'd be like, oh, you remember that always. Very, very, very important skill.

• 22:39Speaker 05

  Cause then it makes you feel possible and makes you feel you're thinking.

• 22:42Speaker 06

  Important. It makes you feel important and making someone else feel important is really very, very valuable, I think in life.

• 22:50Speaker 05

  When Bumble started, did you know it was going to be a hit?

• 22:54Speaker 06

  I knew we were doing something special.

• 22:56Speaker 05

  Why?

• 22:58Speaker 06

  Timing firstly.

• 22:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 22:59Speaker 06

  There was a timing point. It was women's marches. It was definitely, Wit had just had a very public lawsuit with Tinder. So there was a kind of, a moment in time where we were seeing, okay, she's made a stand. We've had Me Too, we've had women's marches. There's something here which opens a door. So timing, definitely.

• 23:27Speaker 05

  And timing is very important.

• 23:29Speaker 06

  Sometimes you can have the best product in the world and if the world isn't ready, the world isn't ready. And it won't land. So I think that timing was really, really critical.

• 23:38Speaker 05

  Can we give an example of anything like that that we can both think of?

• 23:40Speaker 06

  Where, where.

• 23:41Speaker 05

  Where, where.

• 23:42Speaker 06

  Timing wasn't right.

• 23:42Speaker 05

  Timing wasn't right for something.

• 23:43Speaker 06

  So.

• 23:44Speaker 05

  I can't think of anything, but I, but I know there are times.

• 23:46Speaker 06

  So if you think about Spotify and where we are with Spotify now, and you know, we, we all love Spotify. But if you think about SoundCloud before, we weren't quite there, were we? Nearly.

• 24:02Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 24:03Speaker 06

  We were nearly there. But when Spotify came, we were, the world was ready. So I think that there are times when products, like the, the concept is there, but we don't really know that that's what we need. And I think that Bumble came at a time when we really did need that. You know, there was starting to be a real like Tinder fatigue and we were ready to have something new. And the world was talking about women. So putting the two together was a really important moment. So timing was really important. I think we had a good team. The team was great. With Badoo, we already had product market fit.

• 24:45Speaker 06

  We knew exactly that the product was going to land because we were already doing it. So the risk was really much lower. So then it was about, can we, can we tell a story with this product? And do we have the right team to do it? So I think we had a great team to do it. So I think those things made it feel special and like something was going to come. And then the one thing that everyone tells me that you have to look for in an entrepreneur or in a CEO or anyone leading is a chip. You just have to have a little tiny chip, something to prove.

• 25:21Speaker 05

  Why?

• 25:22Speaker 06

  Why? Cause I think you just have to drive through all those punches. Cause those punches come hard and fast and frequently. And sometimes they, you're on the floor. But if you've got a tiny chip that gives you something to prove, you'll get back up again and again and again.

• 25:38Speaker 05

  So what's your chip?

• 25:40Speaker 06

  Oh, I think I've got too many. I am a chip.

• 25:46Speaker 05

  We all have loads of chips.

• 25:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 05

  It's whether or not we want to admit them or not.

• 25:49Speaker 06

  Exactly. Oh God, I mean, I think.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  But what's your big one?

• 25:52Speaker 06

  Now.

• 25:53Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 25:54Speaker 06

  I think my big chip is that, what you said, not many people know how involved I was in other products gone by. And so I have to really show that through the wealth of what else I can build. Peanut.

• 26:10Speaker 06

  That's my, probably my biggest chip now.

• 26:13Speaker 05

  Well, and the, I don't, I don't want to dig too deep because I can understand it's, and I think it's in the past and things like that. But obviously what, what my thing feels like is that you were there from the start and then whatever reason it happened. And then it's now where it is. And you then left?

• 26:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. So look, I am so proud. I love Bumble. I have always loved it.

• 26:34Speaker 05

  Did you ever use it?

• 26:35Speaker 06

  No.

• 26:36Speaker 05

  You didn't?

• 26:36Speaker 06

  No, but it is named after my husband. Is that like, that's cool, isn't it? Yeah, it's named after Rich.

• 26:41Speaker 05

  Get out of here.

• 26:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, because he's Bumble-y and he's like, oh.

• 26:46Speaker 05

  That is mad.

• 26:48Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, you know, that, I didn't use it, but I love it. I love that. I love that product and I love what we did. And I'm so proud of everything that we did there. And I will always love and be connected to Andre and Wit because of that. And I am so thrilled that we did what we did. And when I left, it was pre the IPO. And, you know, I went to go and build something with both of their blessing and I loved it.

• 27:25Speaker 05

  Two thousand seventeen, you set up Peanut. Why did you set it up?

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• 29:05Speaker 06

  So I can tell you the like, human reason, then I can tell you the business reason.

• 29:09Speaker 05

  Both, I want both.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  So the human reason is I was, I had a two and a half year old. So Finn was five months when we started building Bumble and I, it was intense. Like he was, he came everywhere with us. We, he was in Mykonos with us when we were working out how we were gonna build Bumble and what we were gonna call it and all these things. He was just a little portable bundle.

• 29:32Speaker 05

  How do you juggle that?

• 29:33Speaker 06

  Um, at the time, I think I didn't know any better, actually. I didn't, I didn't really know how to do anything other than just bring him along.

• 29:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 06

  Um, you know, and, and there were amazing moments. Sarah Mick, who was one of the, um, early founding team at Bumble, messaged me the other day and she was like, do you remember when he was just sat there with us? And I was like, yeah, I do, of course, it's my baby. Uh, but you know, it must have been so weird for them, but this tiny chubby little cherub was sitting there while we're like, you know, and then we could do this and, you know.

• 30:06Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 30:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, so he, he was very, um, portable and I was very lonely because I, my girlfriends didn't have babies and I didn't know what I was doing truly. And I was very anxious and I also.

• 30:22Speaker 05

  Anxious about what?

• 30:23Speaker 06

  Um, everything going wrong, not getting it right, not doing the right thing, how I was feeling.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 06

  It felt weird.

• 30:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 06

  I felt really odd. Um, I wasn't as sharp, actually, as I was before and that felt frustrating. Like I was a bit out of control on that and I like control. I like to know what's coming and I like to do a good job and I like to be the good girl and get the good grades and that's not how babies work. And so that would compound quite a lot into like feeling anxious a lot. Um, cause you, you can't be perfect with them.

• 31:03Speaker 05

  But I think we also romanticise about childhood and about having babies. And everyone says, oh God, it's this and that and things and it's. But I can see from my wife's perspective, it is tough.

• 31:15Speaker 06

  So hard.

• 31:16Speaker 05

  It is so hard and until you're in it, it's like running a marathon and someone going, that's tough. And you go, well, how tough is it? And then you run a marathon, you go, my God, you can't really explain what it is. We're trying to explain to someone what an apple tastes like.

• 31:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  You know, unless you try an apple, you don't know what an apple tastes like. And so until you experience what motherhood is like, and especially the pregnancy and afterwards and all these different things, it's a lot.

• 31:37Speaker 06

  It's such an alien feeling and I don't mean it's, it's just something that you can't even put into words about what's happening. So many things are changing, you can't control what's changing, you can't control your reaction to what's changing. And some of it is the superficial and that's also hard, by the way. And some of it's just not being able to go at the speed that you used to go at and that's a weird feeling and you feel a bit, I, I started to feel a bit like irritable, like what, no, come on, let's do it, let's get back into it. So there's so much going on and you have got that narrative of I'm the luckiest woman in the world and, you know, which you are.

• 32:18Speaker 06

  But when, certainly for me, when Finn arrived, I looked at him and he was beautiful and I thought, what, what happens now? I think, I hadn't thought about that part, truly, I didn't have any thought about what to do then. And I remember, I, I so remember not wanting to leave the house. I so remember it because Finn would cry and then if he cried, people would think that I'm not a good mum.

• 32:43Speaker 05

  And you had this, I, you need to be, you had to be an expert at everything.

• 32:46Speaker 06

  I had to be the good girl and get it right.

• 32:50Speaker 05

  Wow, that is, I didn't even think about that. If you, your whole life has succeeded and got the grades and done good and been this and been that.

• 32:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:58Speaker 05

  And then when you have control over another human being, that you can't control their emotions and can't control it, you feel like you're failing.

• 33:05Speaker 06

  Repeatedly, didn't have the birth that I thought I was gonna have, feeding wasn't as easy as I thought it was gonna be. He cried, yeah, Michelle, cause babies cry a lot and it's their way of telling you everything that they can tell you, but I was.

• 33:18Speaker 05

  Do you realise now that so much pressure on yourself?

• 33:19Speaker 06

  Oh my gosh, it was, it was horrendous. Honestly, I was very, very, very, you know, not to glorify this, but I was very, very slim after I had Finn, cause I could hardly eat, cause the worry was so extreme. So when I went back to work, I, it was, honestly, it was like trying to get back in touch with me because I didn't, I totally lost who I was in all of this. It was really hard, it was really difficult.

• 33:46Speaker 05

  Oh my God, Michelle.

• 33:47Speaker 06

  So that was the emotional side of it.

• 33:49Speaker 05

  No, but also I know, um, I know with you, you're, you're, you're sort of giving a glimpse into what it was like, but you're not showing the whole picture. So I imagine it's worse than you're even sort of portraying. You're saying it was really tough. I imagine it was an almost unbearable.

• 34:07Speaker 06

  I didn't sleep, there were nights when, even when he finally did sleep, I just couldn't because I was so fraught with anxiety about what time he would wake up. Like I was obsessed by it.

• 34:21Speaker 05

  Why, because?

• 34:22Speaker 06

  I, I don't know, just because I, I felt like surely now we have to have a routine. Now he has to wake up at this time because then I have to get this done and, you know, my obsession with how the day was going to look became all consuming. And truly for me, it wasn't till I went back to work to have something else to control and obsess over, that I started to breathe.

• 34:44Speaker 05

  Release.

• 34:45Speaker 06

  And be a normal, a normal, a, a better mum and enjoy motherhood.

• 34:50Speaker 05

  Were you honest with how you were feeling to other people?

• 34:52Speaker 06

  I don't think it was, it, we're better now.

• 34:55Speaker 05

  It wasn't a thing to talk about.

• 34:56Speaker 06

  But I don't think at the time you could really say, I need to go back to work to get a sense of myself again. I think people would have been like, you're a monster.

• 35:05Speaker 06

  What is wrong with you? Like you've got a perfect baby, enjoy it, like.

• 35:09Speaker 05

  I need to go back to work to get, to feel normal again.

• 35:12Speaker 06

  To feel normal again, maybe like.

• 35:14Speaker 05

  But you're a mum, that's what you're meant to do, you're meant to, and you're like, no.

• 35:17Speaker 06

  You've got everything and I had everything.

• 35:20Speaker 05

  I spoke to a, a, a great friend of mine who also just had a baby and she left her job for a bit and she, um, was, she's very honest and she said, the first month was just horrendous. And not just scaring, because lots of people have different experiences, some people have amazing experiences, some people don't want kids, some people haven't, and she didn't have a great experience. And she said during that month, if I had a button that I could have pressed to reset everything, I would have reset, I would have gone back. I, I, all of this new, new life, suddenly with kid and I was just like, I don't know, I want my old life back. And I think that's quite a scary thing to have to deal with quite alone.

• 35:58Speaker 06

  Alone, because how dare you say it? And also, is, is it normal? I, I truly did wonder.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  How dare you say, is it normal to say this? What's going on?

• 36:05Speaker 06

  I thought I was a monster. I was like, there is something wrong with me because why am I even thinking these things? I'm, I'm like, I'm a disgrace, like what, what? And so you go through all of this and then you start to come out the other side because you've gone back to work and you're like, oh no, I, I remember, I can control this bit. And then you start to love this like gorgeous, messy, chaotic, unstretched part of your life. I couldn't, I'm obsessed with my son, you know what I am, I just love him so much. And so that all became much like over released, but then I still wanted other women in my life because I wanted to ask them what they were thinking. I was thinking about leaving and starting my own business. I wanted to talk to other women about it, who like, what did they think? Did they have this moment?

• 36:51Speaker 06

  Or, um, he was doing different things, like I need to think about nursery or, you know, what were they doing? And I just needed to be with other women who were tracking at the same time as me. So the idea that I'd had about can we connect women came throughout, but the moment was actually him going to nursery and I was like, change for him, change for me, I'm doing it.

• 37:13Speaker 05

  And what's interesting is the way I said before is that you, you don't want people to think it was an instant thing, it's this gradual process. And what, you're so right, you, you have the strong, powerful mum.

• 37:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:23Speaker 05

  Who is, you go and, go and do you, you can achieve anything. So you're like, brilliant, I'm gonna go and be a lawyer, cause that's what I'm gonna do. You become a lawyer, you achieve that. So you're then professionally, you're respected. You go to Badoo and you start this, in this, this sort of dating website and you see these coders, you understand coding and you see the, and then, but also Badoo is about community and it's building a community. And then you move on to Bumble, which is women.

• 37:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 05

  And so it's women bringing women together to be able to date in a safe space and community. And then your progression of that is towards Peanut, which is a community for women who are feeling lonely.

• 37:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 05

  Or.

• 37:59Speaker 06

  Have questions.

• 38:00Speaker 05

  Questions or whatever it is.

• 38:01Speaker 06

  Wanna say, is it normal? Wanna say, can I backtrack? Did I make a mistake? They wanna say all of the things in a place where I hope that you are on Instagram, leading your edited highlights. I hope that's your real life, but I just needed the space where I could also really have the real life.

• 38:19Speaker 05

  So you've built Peanut and how many users do you have now?

• 38:24Speaker 06

  Five million.

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Now that's sinking.

• 38:28Speaker 06

  It's good, isn't it?

• 38:29Speaker 05

  That's very, very good.

• 38:31Speaker 06

  It's pretty cool. Five million women, that's really cool. And I love them and thank you five million women for choosing Peanut. That's cool.

• 38:39Speaker 05

  Do you remember, you won't remember your first customers ever?

• 38:42Speaker 06

  I remember the first day that we launched Peanut.

• 38:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 06

  I remember that. And 20,000 women downloaded the app in three hours. I remember that and I sent a screenshot to one of my investors. And I was like, dude, look at this. It was like on a really old fashioned dashboard. And he was like, wow. And that was almost like my, because imagine all those people who told me that women didn't need their own app. And like, you know, they weren't lonely or they didn't. And 20,000 women told us, yeah, we do.

• 39:18Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 39:20Speaker 06

  That was cool.

• 39:20Speaker 05

  That was your chip being filled a little bit.

• 39:22Speaker 06

  That was the chip. Yeah, exactly.

• 39:24Speaker 05

  So what makes you get up every single day and keep going with Peanut?

• 39:27Speaker 06

  The, the truth is, I absolutely am like the, it's the biggest honour of my life to build this product. And I really mean that, like, how amazing I get to go in every day. And the world is a tiny bit better than I found it.

• 39:47Speaker 06

  And that, that for me is like the biggest honour of my entire life. And I did a talk last week and there was a woman who was sat on the front row. And she put her hand up at the end, she said, it's not a question. It's just to tell you, I've been trying to have a baby for eight years. And I thought, right. And she said, and I went on to Peanut and I met three girls who were also trying to conceive. And three years ago I had a baby. And I'm quite sure that I wouldn't have got as far as I did, let alone get pregnant. If it wasn't for Peanut and you changed my life. And she started crying, I started crying, the girl who's interviewing me started crying, we're all crying. And that's why I do it. That's amazing.

• 40:29Speaker 05

  You know, the, the reason why I started this podcast is because I felt like we're living in a world where we're disconnected. And actually I want to bring connection back together. And what Peanut does is bring that community and connection back. And I think that's so important in our current climate. We need to connect and we've forgotten that art of connection. We think that having a text or this or that is connection, it's totally not. And that's why there's this loneliness crisis, because people aren't connecting.

• 40:53Speaker 06

  It is an epidemic.

• 40:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 06

  And, and it is really, really difficult to say as an adult, I'm lonely. Right? Because as an adult, you're meant to have it all figured out. You, you shouldn't be lonely. But actually, um, we are increasingly lonely. We don't live in the way that we used to live. We don't live next door to our mum, around the corner from our sister, whatever it might be. We live way more isolated lives. And this little thing, that, that's not connection. That, that is, that is almost communication, but it's not a connection.

• 41:29Speaker 05

  Those devices are killing us.

• 41:30Speaker 06

  It's not the way to do it. So if, if we can do one thing, which is make sure that you use that in order to do this, I've won. It's all, all I need is to know that you're gonna meet in real life. It's not a replacement for that.

• 41:46Speaker 05

  Is that why you've written your book?

• 41:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, the book is, it's a really a curation of all the stories. Like I get to hear these amazing stories all the time about things that women are talking about. I'm like the nicest perv you'll ever meet. Cause I'm like, is that the right way to say it? But you know, like watching for you better, or is that worse? Anyway, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm like watching all these like amazing stories or moments. And some of them are funny and some of them are heartbreaking and some of them are, you know, whatever they are. And I get to see them all. And so, um, the book is curating all those stories. Cause I want every woman to see her version of motherhood represented. Cause I get to see them and you need to see them.

• 42:29Speaker 06

  Cause if you only see one type of woman's story, like a woman, she's married and she's got, you know, a really engaged partner, whatever. And you're not in that situation, that's not your version of motherhood. You feel even more lonely. So this is about showing women in all different cultures or different scenarios, you're doing it on your own, whatever it is. And it's that first year.

• 42:51Speaker 05

  It's called It Takes a Village. So me, if I'm really, if I'm gonna read this or, or a, anyone's gonna read this, what are they gonna get from it?

• 42:59Speaker 06

  The book will give you a full first year. So you can dip in and out, you're in the, you know, sleeplessness, you're doing weaning, whatever it might be, you can dip in and out. So it helps you navigate that first year through the eyes of other women. Here's what I did, here's my story with an expert who will tell you exactly what's happening. Cause we all need an expert to tell us.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 43:20Speaker 06

  Um, and most importantly for me, I can't read a book cover to cover. I don't have time.

• 43:26Speaker 05

  So you can dip in and out.

• 43:27Speaker 06

  You can dip in and out, there's an index, whatever you're going through, go to the right heaven. It's like, that was a essential, like I cannot make someone sit and read this cover together.

• 43:36Speaker 05

  You wanna dip in and dip out.

• 43:37Speaker 06

  Unless you really want to, obviously I want you to do that, but if you can't, you don't have to.

• 43:42Speaker 05

  Do you think you're an addict to new ideas and new things and building and growing?

• 43:46Speaker 06

  Yes, I love it.

• 43:48Speaker 05

  Cause I've been at a lunch with you and I was, and I thought I was pretty good at thinking of ideas and thinking of new things and coming up with new concepts and this and that. I mean, you, you, you trumped me.

• 44:00Speaker 06

  It's quite hard to turn off though, isn't it?

• 44:01Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, it's, it's, it's everything.

• 44:03Speaker 06

  It's like an addiction, because you see, you like, every day I'm having ideas, 90% are absolute turd. Like they're the worst ideas ever, right? And I know that, but occasionally there's something where I'm like, that is a good one. I know it's good. And it's just, you know, it, it's just something in your brain that keeps you excited every day. Keeps me like motivated. Um, and there's so many more things that, you know, I want to do. And, um, I'm, I just feel really, really lucky that I am in a position where I get to dream about what the ideas are for the next thing. Like that's, that's a gift.

• 44:38Speaker 05

  I have this big theory, right? Um, when it comes to running a business, um, is that I sort of truly believe that every founder or business leader should have therapy. And the reason why they should have therapy is because you become self-aware. And as a leader, you've got to be self-aware because you've actually got to realise what you're not good at. And that is the most important thing, because we kind of know what we're good at.

• 44:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 05

  I know I'm quite creative, I know that I'm pretty smart on marketing, I know I've got my figure on the pulse here. But what I'm not good, I'm like, well, I'm pretty, well, first when you first start, I'm like pretty good at everything, I can do it all. And then you quickly realise that you can't. So I think, you know, founders should have therapy in order to find that out. What advice would you give to someone who's starting out in their business right now? And the advice you'd say to them, okay, watch out for this, look out for this, maybe do that, what would it be?

• 45:22Speaker 06

  I think that actually, I, I mean, I, I hesitate to say it because it just sounds like I'm this lonely girl. But it is quite lonely when you start a business.

• 45:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 06

  And being the founder is quite lonely because there are certain things that only you know, and only you can do, and only you control. And you know, it's that thing that like, if you cough, the whole company catches a cold. So you have to be really like aware of kind of what you're saying and what you're sharing and, um, your attitude and how you, um, behave and perform. And so that can be quite lonely. And so I think that actually the best advice is having someone who isn't in the business, who can share some of it with you. Might be a partner, might be a friend, might be someone you go and play paddle with, it doesn't matter what it is.

• 46:11Speaker 06

  But you do need to have that one person who is outside of what you do to kind of help support you. Um, because the perpetual lonely girl over here, it, it can be a bit isolating, those moments.

• 46:26Speaker 05

  That's great advice. Um, I want everyone to go and get your book. I'm gonna leave the link in the podcast description as well, It Takes a Village. And I can imagine we get it online and in bookstores and.

• 46:38Speaker 06

  Yes, all of that, on Amazon and Waterstones and other.

• 46:41Speaker 05

  And if someone is listening now and, um, is, um, likes our conversation, go and download Peanut.

• 46:48Speaker 06

  Please, do you know what?

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Go and do it.

• 46:50Speaker 06

  Go and, if there's anything that's making you not do it, because you think that what you, you're, you don't need advice, well, you'll need advice.

• 46:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 06

  If you're feeding at 2am, go and, there's some great stories on there, you'll just love that anyway. You can track your pregnancy, you can track your toddler growing up, you can see like what they're meant to be doing if you don't want to do the other stuff. But if you can, send the one message, wave at one person, having one friend will change it.

• 47:18Speaker 05

  And it's an amazing community.

• 47:19Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  Michelle, thank you, we'd like to end the conversation with eight questions, are you ready? It's a quick fire.

• 47:26Speaker 06

  I'm ready.

• 47:26Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 47:27Speaker 06

  You've heard me, I talk too much for quick fire, but here we go.

• 47:29Speaker 05

  You're so good. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile and cheers you up?

• 47:33Speaker 06

  Why not you? You can do it, why not you?

• 47:37Speaker 05

  That's great.

• 47:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 05

  Best compliment anyone's ever given you?

• 47:41Speaker 06

  Nice eyelashes? Thanks for it.

• 47:44Speaker 05

  What scares you most about yourself?

• 47:46Speaker 06

  My obsession.

• 47:48Speaker 05

  What's something you can't let go of?

• 47:51Speaker 06

  My desire to win.

• 47:52Speaker 05

  Love that. What's your guilty pleasure?

• 47:56Speaker 06

  Eating in bed, everyone thinks it's disgusting, I don't care, I get my wine, I get my snacks, I get into bed on a Friday night. Don't talk to me, don't at me, I love it, I watch bad TV.

• 48:06Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 48:06Speaker 06

  I'm a slob.

• 48:07Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 48:08Speaker 06

  And I love it.

• 48:09Speaker 05

  Love that. What do you like most about yourself?

• 48:13Speaker 06

  I love to laugh. So I can be like, anything can set me off laughing, humour, I'll, I'll go for it.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  And bonus one, your favourite swear word?

• 48:22Speaker 06

  Fuck, fuck yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 05

  Michelle Kennedy, thank you so much, you're amazing.

• 48:28Speaker 06

  Don't be.

• 48:30Speaker 05

  That was amazing.

• 48:31Speaker 06

  It was alright.

• 48:32Speaker 05

  Oh my god.

• 48:39Speaker 07

  When you put your body in the hands of a surgeon, you assume your doctor will do you no harm.

• 48:44Speaker 03

  I'm looking at the surgery board for tomorrow, these people are ****.

• 48:48Speaker 07

  Crooked doctors have launched their most ambitious fraud yet, worth over one billion dollars. One doctor says, my kickback was 25,000 and the other doctor's going, well, I only got 12,000. From Sony Music Entertainment and Western Sound, this is Dr Billions. Search for Dr Billions wherever you get your podcasts and start listening today.

• 49:09Speaker 01

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