PERRIE EDWARDS: Letting Go of a Friendship I Thought Would Last Forever

Perrie Edwards was just 17 when she found fame on The X Factor. After auditioning for the show, she was put together with Jade, Leigh-Anne and Jesy to form Little Mix - a group that became one of the biggest girlbands in British pop history. In our conversation, Perrie reveals that one of the hardest things about being famous is having some of her most personal experiences play out in the public eye. From the very public end of her friendship with Jesy to going through a break-up, Perrie opens up about what it's really like to grieve, heal and grow while the world is watching. In this episode, Perrie shares: The reality of being on The X Factor at 17Going through a very public break-up with Zayn MalikThe emotional and physical impact of experiencing two miscarriagesThe secure, fulfilling love she’s found with her husband AlexWhy she's made peace with her friendship with Jesy coming to an end Perrie is a reminder that the people we grew up watching on stage are still figuring things out and that there's real strength in being honest about that. Perrie Edwards is Great Company. Listen to Perrie’s latest single ‘Passenger Princess’ HERE https://open.spotify.com/track/1vcx8MdVXorEACHnUX3OVA?si=67c05057a0f54634 If you enjoyed the show, you can also follow us: Instagram-@greatcompanypodcast https://www.instagram.com/greatcompanypodcast/# TikTok -@greatcompanypodcast https://open.acast.com/networks/611e511b4ec6dc00134bced2/shows/65d737dfdc02e00016c413b2/episodes/www.tiktok.com/@greatcompanypodcast Jamie -@jamielaing https://www.instagram.com/jamielaing/?hl=en-gb And if you've got thoughts, questions and comments, you can email us at: [email protected] THE CREDITS Producers: Helen Burke & Emilia Gill Assistant Producer: Issy Weeks-Hankins Video: Jake Ji Senior Social Media Manager: Laura Coughlan Audio: Rafi Amsili Geovannetti Executive Producer: Ewan Newbigging-Lister Great Company is an original podcast from JamPot. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I need to be careful how I say this.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  I'm just gonna say it.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  You know, you sang about writers, when you have friend breakouts.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  When the other person doesn't take any accountability. That boils my blood. I'm not saying she's this fucking monster, but take some accountability for your actions.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Do you think you will rekindle the friendship?

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Um, if I'm being completely transparent. Hey, I'm Perry and I'm in great company. It's Perry at work! I don't wanna close my eyes. I don't wanna fall asleep, 'cause I miss you, baby.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  And I don't wanna miss a thing. Even when I dream of you. The sweetest thing will never do, I still miss you, Perry.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Sing it! When you go through heartbreak, it is hellish.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  It's the worst thing in the world.

• 0:52Speaker 00

  And then what makes it even worse is I feel like the world was then looking at me, laughing at me.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 0:57Speaker 00

  I felt embarrassed. I felt horrified. It was awful.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  How do you stay sane through that?

• 1:02Speaker 00

  I didn't.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  You don't?

• 1:04Speaker 00

  I had a mental breakdown. I had, like, serious breakdowns. I did.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  You also went through a miscarriage.

• 1:11Speaker 00

  We were about 24 weeks when we lost our baby, but we'd named him and I think having to give birth to a child that you can't take home.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Oh, Perry. I'm sorry.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  Oh, this is awful.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.

• 1:37Speaker 03

  Love the crown molding.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  No FiOS? Yeah, no thank you.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Don't you want to see the rest? Okay. Bye-bye.

• 1:56Speaker 04

  Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Guys, just before we start, I want to let you know that this episode contains discussions about miscarriage and baby loss. Now, please take care whilst listening or watching. If you or someone you know is affected by this, please know that support is available. You can find information and links to helpful resources in the show notes. Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Great Company. Today's guest is Perrie Edwards. That is enough set. Okay, now, before we start, if I can ask you one favor, just hit that subscribe button. It means you can join our community and it means that we can keep making this show better and better for you each week. If you can do that one thing, thank you so much. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Perrie Edwards. Perry, listen, I've just listened to your brand new single.

• 2:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Passenger Princess. Were you just listening to Upstairs?

• 2:53Speaker 00

  Oh, nice. What do you think? You like it?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Okay, I promised you, right?

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Oh, yay!

• 2:59Speaker 01

  It reminds me of kind of like, it's like Avril Lavigne.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Like a rock poppy. It's insane.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  Oh, yay! That makes me really happy. Thank you.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  When you make that, when you do a song of that, do you know in your head, like, this feels good? This feels exciting.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so, yeah. And I've got that feeling with this song. And I wrote it with Nina Nesbit and we just have such a laugh together. Like, we're taking the mic, like, the lyrics, "I don't want to take out the bins." We were like, can we open a song with this as the first line? Or is it a bit random? It's a bit out there, isn't it? And then "My patience is on Manjaro." Like, "My patience is wearing thin." Like, "I haven't got time for this shit." So, that's kind of like, we were just bantering and it ended up being a thing. And now I just love it.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Can you, how do you find a solo career since being in a band for so long and then becoming solo? That's a big shift.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  It is a big shift. That's the, I think I've struggled the most with that shift.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Well, explain to me why.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  I think it's it's like a double edged sword, I keep saying, because you come out, when you're a new artist and you're not established yet, right? And you're trying to figure out your sound, figure out who you are as an artist. It's an art at the end of the day. So you kind of, you have to try everything before you know and before it sticks. Like, look at Sabrina Carpenter. She's been around for years.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Years.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  But only now, it's like starting to pop off and people are listening. And it's like, but she's been great for ages, but it just takes one thing to stick. Does that make sense?

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Totally, hundred percent.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  And you can work around like behind the scenes, do your thing. When you come from a big band like Little Mix was, because we were, we were huge. We were successful, we did a lot. People then have the expectation of you coming out of a band that you have to then be great from the get go.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  But who has that expectation? Yourself, your team, your management, the audience?

• 4:39Speaker 00

  I think my label probably expected it. I think the fans expected, like, everybody has these expectations of me.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  That is a lot of pressure and I don't do well with pressure like that. And it gets to me. And I think if I was a new up and coming artist and I was figuring my shit out behind the scenes and then I came out, I'd be less pressured.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  But I don't want people hearing me and be like, oh, that's not what I thought she was gonna do when she left the group. Oh, that's not the kind of route I thought should go down. So it is a lot of pressure, but then you're blessed in a way because you have a fan base already. So you can't really.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  But it's a double edged sword, as you said.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  It's like you've got to weigh up the pros and the cons, really.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you're so right. I think what you're basically saying is, you take Sabrina Carpenter, people look at the end product and they go, my god, she's big. She's been doing it for so many years.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  So many years.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Every artist, every person who's successful has been doing that grind for so long.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  And so now, because you've had so much success before.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, well, there needs to be success now.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  It needs to like follow that kind of success.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  And you don't have the others to lean on as well.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  No, and that Little Mix didn't, yes, we won X Factor and we were successful, but it didn't happen overnight. It wasn't instant. We had a few dodgy singles or a few things that didn't really work. And then we'd try something else and we were R and B at one point, then we went really pop. And then we went more like regimented, salute, like, yeah, everything was all, like, we tried everything and it worked because people grew with us over time. Whereas I'm coming out now from that and they're like, do something great now, do it now, instant. And I'm like, give me a minute, just let me figure it out.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  I just wanna understand what.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  I'm like, I just wanna figure it out.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  What does that do to you emotionally, mentally? Because that's a hard thing, we're having that much pressure.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  It's a lot. It is a lot. And I think like I'm. A people pleaser as well. I like people to be happy. I want my team to be happy. I want like everyone around me to be like in this happy little bubble and everything's great and blah, blah, blah, which obviously isn't life really, is it? You've, you've got to take there's the, what is it?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  The rough with the smooth.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, you've got to take the rough with the smooth. And I think, yeah, I just, I want to please everybody and I want my fans to be pleased and I think pleasing other people so much, you then start to really lose yourself, I think. And then you can kind of get lost.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  I'm really trying in later life not to be a people pleaser.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Me too. It's hard, but I'm getting better at it, I think.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Also, is there a pressure as well? Like being in a band and then becoming solo and then others within the band also having a solo career. It, it's not competitiveness.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  But it's, I imagine you have to have different sounds.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  I mean, you say it's not competitive, but it really is.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Great, I love that.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Not between us. Like me and the girls, we don't have that in our bones. Like, we love each other so much. If I see the girls doing well, I feel like I'm winning because I love them that much. I want to see them do well.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Really, truthfully, you have that?

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Yes, truthfully. And that makes me happy. Whereas everybody else from the outside compares us all the time and it is draining. Like Leanne doesn't want to be compared to me all the time. I don't want to be compared to Jade all the time and vice versa. It's, it's exhausting again. But it's just how people are, I think. When you come from a group, they love to pit you against each other. But Little Mix was never about that when we were together, let alone now. Do you know what I mean?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, because Little Mix was never that.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  No, we were never that.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  I think Little Mix is one of the greatest bands of all time. 100% flat out.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  With, without a doubt.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  It hits.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  We were unbelievable.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  You were un-

• 8:00Speaker 00

  Thanks. Honestly, two, two, blow that horn. Yeah, I'm buzzing.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Okay, 50 million records sold worldwide.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Over 15 billion global streams and sold over 3 million concert tickets. Unbelievable.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Wow. When you put it like that, that is insane, isn't it?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  My favorite?

• 8:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, go.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Your vocals.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  With Jason Derulo.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Oh, Secret Love Song. Do you like that one?

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Barry, I don't dislike it. I love it.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  I love it. I love that song.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  It's so.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  It's such a good song.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  I don't, can I, shall I go for it?

• 8:37Speaker 00

  Go for it. Go for it.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Don't quite know the lyrics, but.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Can you hold me at last?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  And if you're on the dance floor.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  That's beautiful.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  And if you'd be like that.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Why can't it be like that?

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Cause I'm, ah, that wasn't good.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  That's, no, that was really good, but that's a hard bit, that though. That's a big bit. Even I get a bit, oh, when that comes.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  So when you get to that, when you get, when you were getting to that moment.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  When you, and you have to take it to another level. Cause there's the bit at the end.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, I'd be shitting myself. It's the.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  That one. And then, cause I did the stupid thing of holding it on every night. People were expecting it then. I thought, oh, I have to.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Cause where are you?

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Exactly that, just like that. Just like that. I love it. I can't, I'm not warm. Do you know, I haven't sang that song in six years.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Have you not?

• 9:34Speaker 00

  And I'm thinking about like performing it again when I do the live gigs. Cause it was such a moment and the crowd loved singing it.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  But I'm, I'm so scared. Cause that note is insane. But I always said to myself, if I fluffed it up and it went wrong, I'd just do it again.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Oh, so you would just stop, you would just stop and say, right, I'm gonna do that again.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cause it's right at the end. And as long as I know the key, I'll just do it again. I'll just come back in.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  You have the confidence to do that now, right? Where.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Which is amazing. It's so funny how like, as we go through life, we get this complete confidence. And we're just like, why didn't we have this mentality when we were younger? Cause all the stories of you, when you were younger, you were this incredible singer. You could always sing, but you didn't have the confidence to go and do it.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  No, I was just terrified.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Why were you terrified when you were younger?

• 10:15Speaker 00

  I don't know. I think you care more about what people think. I think that comes with age. And even though your elders will say, you won't care as much, you know, just let, like, don't worry about what people think and what they say. But it's hard to actually do that when you're younger, I think. Cause I think people's opinions mean everything when you're younger. I don't know why. But as I'm getting older and I'm realising life is too short, I'm only put on this planet once. I wanna do it right. Do you know what I mean? So I can't spend it worrying about what people think of me. Now I'm at the place, but like you said earlier, with the people pleasing thing, if people don't like me. Tough shit.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, but do you really mean that?

• 10:50Speaker 00

  Yes, I do. Whereas before I didn't. I wanted people to like me. I needed people to like me. And now I really do not care at all.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Where do you think that comes from? Because I, you do therapy, right?

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  And I do therapy. Well, I've actually sort of stopped my therapy for, I don't know, I've stopped since becoming a dad, I've stopped.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Okay, is that just because you haven't got time, really?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  No time.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  No time to like breathe, no time to do anything. And so, and, and actually, I think therapy, if you can do therapy in any form, is the most important thing because the self-awareness that we get from it.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  It's crazy, right? And what I realised, all of what I, the reason why I'm a people pleaser, the reason why I want to be loved, was from a lot of different things when I was younger.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Why do you think you have that within you? What have you learnt about yourself?

• 11:36Speaker 00

  I think I have serious abandonment issues. Do you too?

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  I think that's what it comes down to. And I never realised it at the time because I grew up with my mum doing everything for me and having her such a strong, independent woman. But really, I think about like, my dad left when I was six months. And I think that your body holds on to the trauma, even though I don't remember it, I still think, oh, my dad didn't want to be here. Do you know what I mean?

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  So it was like that. And then you have relationships and they'll leave you for someone else. And it's all, and it's constantly, it's like, oh, God, I'm not good enough because nobody wants to be around. Does that make sense?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Makes total sense.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  This got real deep, real quick, didn't it?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Hey, listen.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  This got real deep.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Oh, don't want to open you up straight away. Wait, am I talking deep now? Like, no, I'm so with you.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  I think that's what it is.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  It's totally that. Yeah, when my parents divorced, and I think that for me, and I was sent up to boarding school, and I've spoken about this a lot, but that, that's what, I mean, you don't really realise that. And, and now for me, which is, I'm going through this process now because I've just had a baby boy, right? I'm looking at me, a younger me, when I was sort of eighteen to twenty-seven.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  And I feel so sorry for that young kid because I was trying to be so many things, I just wasn't.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Like so many different things because I was so scared of not fitting in, being abandoned. And, and it's, it's sad to think that.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  It is.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  That I went through so much without realising why I was going through it.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. I feel like at the time you don't, you just kind of plod along with it, don't you? And then when you start looking back on it. But yeah, it's like that little child inside of you, you want to like protect it. And then when you have children, it gives you a whole new outlook on life, doesn't it?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Why, why did your dad leave?

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Uh, he met someone else and they're still together now and I adore her. So it's like, everything happens for a reason, but at the time it was like, oh no. You know what I mean? And I was just a baby, so I didn't know. I didn't know any different and I like at the, like at the time we just went through, but then when I'm, now that I'm older and I look back on how my mom was, I don't know how she did it. Cause I couldn't imagine doing what she did with two kids on her own, like no money, nothing like, do you know what I mean? It's hard, but we, I never felt like I didn't have things when I was growing up. Like everything we had was secondhand, but I still had it. Do you know what I mean?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  So I don't look back on my childhood and go, oh, poor me. I had nothing. I had a great childhood. I was very happy as a child, you know?

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do know.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  It's interesting.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  No, it's amazing. And, and you, you grew up, but you moved around a lot, didn't you?

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  So you, you, you went and you ended up, you were in New Zealand for a bit as well.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. We were everywhere. Again, though, at the time I was like, oh, we're off, we're off again. But when I look back now, I think my mom was probably just trying to figure this shit out on her own. And she just wanted to keep moving around here, then everywhere.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  So when was the first moment that you realised that you could sing?

• 14:23Speaker 00

  Um, from a very young age, actually. Cause I remember being like, I went to a Catholic school and we sung for everything. We sung for our lunch, we sung for our breaks, we sung, we just, everything was singing. And I remember sitting next to kids in the class thinking, you ain't doing that right. Like it would really offend me.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  So it's just natural?

• 14:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cause people who are tone deaf, I don't understand how their brains work. It fascinates me.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  I'm tone deaf.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 14:46Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Okay. Well, I didn't wanna say, but no, I'm joking. But I don't know how people can't hear the note. Like if I go la and someone can't go la. That offends me and I know I shouldn't because it's not fair.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  You can just, you can just, you could just hear that?

• 15:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. But if some, if I go la and someone goes la, I'm like, no, that's wrong. Do you know what I mean?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  But can you, can you name the note?

• 15:10Speaker 00

  No, I'm not that good. I'm not like, I'm not like Uzo, Eminem.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  But you can, you can mimic people. So if someone says it, you can go straight into it.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, like pitch. And I know if people have good pitch or they don't. And I knew that from a very young age because I could sing along to anything. And I used to impersonate people a lot. Like Britney, I went through a Britney stage. Like I sang like that all the time, all the time.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  I do that against some people.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Like that. I just loved it. I wanted to impersonate everyone. And then like Anastasia and like Alanis Morissette. Like I used to just be odd all the time. Like on it, it was like never ending. But I would just spend hours and hours and hours singing. So I knew it was like a passion.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Does that mean though, when, when you go into singing, do you then try and mimic someone? How do you find your own voice? Because if you're fans of Britney Spears or Avril Lavigne or whatever, or Diana Ross, doesn't matter who it is, you kind of want to mimic them because you know they've been successful. So how do you find that voice within you?

• 16:05Speaker 00

  I think it just comes eventually. Because I think you just take it like you're taking so much, you're like a sponge at that age, aren't you? So you try everything and then whatever feels the most comfortable is what I think is like your natural singing voice. Does that make sense?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  So when people sing in cursive, I'm like, but that's not real, is it?

• 16:23Speaker 05

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• 16:56Speaker 01

  Were you popular at school?

• 16:58Speaker 00

  It depends how you define popular. I had a lot of friends, but I don't think I was a popular girl. But I moved around so much, so I was kind of popular because I was always the new girl.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Because that's what I mean. Because you were moving around so much, that's that fine, that I imagine that would be quite hard to fit in because you're constantly changing the whole time. And then you go to New Zealand and spend time in New Zealand and then you come back again.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  So that's a lot.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  It is a lot for my little nervous system at that age.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  But I used to just think, oh, it's good because I'm good at making friends. So I had to then introduce myself to people and be like, hi, I'm Perry, I'm from England and da, da, da, da, da. Do you know what I mean?

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  But that's another thing as well. My, my accent used to morph into different things. Cause when I lived in Weymouth, I was a bit more posh. And then I went to South Shields and then I was like talking more Geordie and then I moved to New Zealand and I was all of a sudden being like Kiwi. So it's a bit odd, isn't it? So now my accent's all over the gaff.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  X Factor was a big moment for you and it's, and it's, and do you know, I say this every single time, but I think it's, it's pretty amazing, right? Where Harry Styles won a Grammy, right? And he got up on stage and he says, I want to thank the X Factor. It's amazing, you know, a lot of people, when they speak to me or a lot of my cast members from Made in Chelsea, they don't want to talk about it. That's not me. I'm such a believer in understanding and recognizing your roots.

• 18:20Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  You know, you, it, it, good, bad, whatever it is, you have to recognize where you, you came from. Where do you sit with that?

• 18:27Speaker 00

  I completely agree. I think every platform and every opportunity we've been given is, it's wild. Like I, I'm lucky I got on X Factor. I'm lucky I got noticed. I'm lucky I went all the way and we're lucky that we won. Do you know what I mean? And I think I don't look back and go, oh, X Factor, gross. Cause yeah, it was hard and it was a lot, but I'm still grateful it happened. But I'm, I'm a bit like that with everything. My mom calls me Pollyanna. You know Pollyanna, the movie? Do you remember that?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 18:52Speaker 00

  And it's a little girl and she's just so positive about everything. Like I always think like, I don't like it when people rewrite history either. I don't like it when people look back on things and go, oh, it was this and it was that, but it, but it wasn't, was it? Do you know what I mean?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  I know exactly what you mean.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Me. It's like just, yes, it was hard and I'm not saying it was the, the most straightforward, most humane show. And it wasn't the most, it, things weren't handled right, but I'm still very glad it happened and it got me to where I am now. I'm grateful.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  But if I could, because on your solo career now and. In your head, I don't, you probably think, think this is that because you, you, you a hundred percent have the talent, you have the personality, you have the looks, you have everything. You could, you do though, right? You could, you could have had a solo career or in a band without the X Factor, right? So if I gave you a magic wand, truthfully, and you could re, you could, or a genie and you said, I give you one wish, you could redo your life and you can do X Factor or not do it, would you redo X Factor?

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  You would, one hundred percent?

• 19:52Speaker 00

  A hundred percent, and I would a hundred percent wanna be in the group again. Like, I thrive in a group dynamic, or I did when I was younger, cuz I was, I wasn't confident. I was painfully shy, and every time I auditioned, I sounded terrible, and I'd never experienced nerves before.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  That's so annoying, knowing that you can't give your best in that moment.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, and my voice was shaking and it was going like that, and I was like, oh my god, I don't know what's happening to me, and then I, oh, you're just nervous, and I thought, is that what that is? I don't, I've never had that before, it's weird. So I think when they put me with the girls, I was thinking, right, this is it. My mom even said that, if I'm lucky, they'll put me in a group, cuz I was so painfully shy. If the camera was there, I'd be like that, trying to avoid it, whereas now, I'm like, look at me! But at the time, I needed the girls around me, and I was so young, I was only seventeen.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  That is baby!

• 20:40Speaker 00

  I was a baby, sixteen when I first auditioned, I think, and seventeen-ish when we won, eighteen maybe.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  We had Jessie on the podcast, right? And she said, being in a band was amazing, and it's not until you go solo that you realize how powerful being in a band really is.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  Hmm, that's true, I think it is.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Cuz you just have that support.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  But I knew that in the moment, though. We, we, we knew we were blessed to have each other, and I think if, you know, we didn't get along, and it was hard, and we went through all these different things, cuz it wasn't peachy all the time, it was hard, but we still had each other, and I think we'd always put our shit to one side and be like, no, we're in this together, and we, we want the same thing, we have to make it work.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  But explain to me the hard bits, right? Because- For someone who looks in, right, and I, I know, but for someone who's listening right now, watching, looking in, they're going, but you had everything. You got to travel the world. You got to do this. You got to do that.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  So what are the hard bits that people don't see?

• 21:34Speaker 00

  I think the hard part is being seventeen, eighteen and being whisked away from your family and that's it. You don't get time to see them that much. You don't see your friends. You miss events. You miss big milestones in people's lives. You don't get to be a part of the normal stuff anymore. And you're on a, you're, you're a goldfish in a pond. Everybody's looking at you. Everybody's watching your every move, who you're dating, who you're seeing, who you're out with. Are you drinking? Are you partying too much? Are you being boring? Are you, it's everything. It's like, when you're that age, I didn't know what the hell I was doing at seventeen, eighteen. I was figuring it out, but I was figuring out with a lens in front of me 24/7.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  It's also too young to figure it out.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Paparazzi's trying to get up my skirt at eighteen years old. I'm like, this is weird. Like, men following me home, like all these different things that people are like, but you're so lucky you're in a girl band. I'm like, yeah, but there's people out there who are also a bit nuts and we have to deal with them and it's like a lot.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  You had paparazzi trying to do upscaling and you had men following you home.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of the time, yeah.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  That's terrifying.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  I know. And I used to park up somewhere else and then either go to my manager's house or go somewhere else until I'd lost them. And then I'd have to go all the way back home then because I didn't want to be followed. So I'd have to try and lose them. And there's just like, this is the thing. There's, there's two sides to being famous, I suppose, isn't there? And you don't have the choice, but now it's so different to what it was when we were on the scene. When we first came out, like paps were everywhere, cameras were everywhere. Every move was documented. Everything was a headline. Everything was seen. Whereas now I feel like I go about my life and nobody cares. But maybe that's just because they're bored of me.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  They're not bored of you.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  But it's not the same anymore. I don't get papped everywhere anymore. I don't think anyone really does, do they? Because of social media, they've taken that money away from paps essentially, haven't they?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  But can I ask a question? Because you had the abandonment issue, right?

• 23:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Because your dad left and you were so young and that you thought everyone was going to leave. When you get given fame.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  It's like the most, it's like nectar for someone who has abandonment. Because it's so exciting.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  And wait, everyone wants me and everyone loves me. It's everything you've ever wanted.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  And it's hard, right? Because you also wanted to be single, but you also wanted to be famous, I imagine, right?

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Part, yeah, parts of me enjoys it.

• 23:47Speaker 00

  When it works in my favour, I love it. If it gets me at the front of the queue, why not? If it gets me a discount, why not? But when it's like people are invasive and in my space, then I'm like, no. But I do think fame is addictive.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  I think when you're liked and when you're adored, it's the best feeling in the world because who doesn't want that? It's normal to feel like that, even if you're at school and you're Miss Popular or Mr Popular. And you go through your life, if you're working in an office and you're the main one or you're the golden boy or whatever. It makes you feel something, so you can't deny that. I can't say, oh, I don't like it. I love it. I like it. But I think I wanted it and I craved it more before I had children.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Explain that to me.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  So I think for me, being in the industry and being a singer was everything. And if I wasn't that, I was, I was a nothing. I was a failure. I was a nobody. Nobody cared. But then when you have kids, it just puts everything in perspective. And it's like, hang on a minute. Yes, I do this because I love it and it's what makes me happy. And I'm at my happiest when I'm on stage. It's not everything. It's not. My children's health and happiness and everything else, that's what's important. So I think you just get a whole new look on life.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, your whole party shift, don't they?

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, everything shifts.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  It's crazy where that happens. Your brain, your, your brain expands.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Everything just shifts and everything becomes different.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  And don't get me wrong, I want it still. I wanna be out there. I wanna be a pop star. It's who makes me feel like me. I'm like, I love being a mom, but I also love doing what I love to do. So it's finding that balance, but it's not like I, I need it now, otherwise I'm a nothing. Do you know what I mean?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. So when you were in Little Mix, right? Results mattered massively.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, right? You needed to be the top. It was like, we need to do this. We need to be the best.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  And that also comes with that fear of bad, and we're gonna lose this at some point. It's gonna go.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  It's gonna go.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  And now that shifted where you don't think, there's not much pressure on yourself, it feels like a little bit.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  No, and I think that changes as well with the industry. The industry is completely different now. Like back in Little Mix days, if we didn't get a number one or a top five, it was a failure. It was bad because the amount of money that was invested in us and the amount of work and time and commitment that everybody put in. Into it. It was a big, huge disappointment and it felt like shit. Whereas now, chart position doesn't really, it doesn't matter anymore. It's about streams and it's about this and it's about social media content and everything's kind of shifted anyway. So I think then you start thinking, well, right, well, that's not important anymore. Now this is important and X, Y, Z is important. So I think that shifted anyway. But back in Little Mix, if we, if we didn't get like the success we craved, we felt so shit.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  What was the, what was the hardest part about being in Little Mix around that time? What was it?

• 26:28Speaker 00

  I think what I said just about our personal lives being everywhere, like that was a lot.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  And it was a lot to, to deal with because it didn't, it wasn't normal really, is it? It's not normal.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Cause also you're growing up and you, and you go through a public breakup as well and that's tough.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is tough. I think it's, I think it's only tough because one, I mean, people are gonna hate me talking about it. They fucking, I can't catch a break. If I talk about this, they're like, why are you talking about it? But anyway.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Because it's your life. Yeah. And it's your life. Let's frigging talk about it.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Like when you go through heartbreak.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  It is hellish.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  It's the worst thing in the world.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Can't eat, you can't sleep, you feel horrendous, again, abandoned. You feel abandoned and you don't feel good enough and you feel like you've been left for something better or whatever it is, obviously. And then what makes it even worse is I feel like the world was then looking at me, laughing at me.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  I felt like everyone thought, ah, ha, ha. Do you know what I mean? And not, not my fans, like my fans were like, we love you. We'll fight at your corner no matter what. But I felt like everyone, I felt embarrassed. I felt horrified. It was awful.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  How do you stay sane through that?

• 27:38Speaker 00

  I didn't.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  You don't.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  I had a mental breakdown. I had like serious breakdowns. I did. Because it wasn't just the heartbreak I was dealing with. I was dealing with everybody like looking at me and I felt ridiculed. I just, I just couldn't cope with it. I hated it. I was breaking down in performances, which isn't like me at all. I was breaking down. I was crying constantly. I was, I was, I think I was depressed. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but I think it was this plus this. This plus this and everything on top. It was like, I had to be there for the girls. I had to be switched on. I had to power through for, for, for little makes, but I also just wanted to be left the fuck alone. But I also was getting followed every two seconds and asked about it 24 seven. And it was the headlines. It was everywhere and it was a lot.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  And like, this is the thing when people are like, stop talking about it. I'm like, but it really affected me.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Barry, you shouldn't, you shouldn't feel like you have to stop talking about things because other people say so. Who cares?

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, you're right.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Was as hard for Zane as it was for you, do you think?

• 28:38Speaker 00

  Um, I don't think at the time, I think when you're, I need to be careful how I say this, but there was, let's just say there was a bit of a,

• 28:54Speaker 00

  I'm just gonna say it. So there was a bit of an overlap.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  You see? And I think when you're moving on with somebody else, you always get on better. When you're the one left behind, that's when it's hard. Because it's like, oh shit, they've left me for someone more beautiful than me, someone better than me, whatever it is, that's how it felt at the time.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  And then you, you have a song that they've written about you, but then there, someone else is in the video. It's, it was one thing after the other, after the other. And I remember finding out about that.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Barry, that is it.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I just, I went in and my, my dad and my brother were at the house at the time and I'd just moved into my little bungalow in Surrey. So I was trying to get as far away as I could. And I just remember finding out about that. And it was like the nail in the coffin. And I thought, this is all getting a bit much. And then I started crying my eyes out. And then my dad started crying and he was like, I don't know how I can take this pain away. And I'm like, you can't. Nobody can. This is hellish. Like, what is going on? It was like, it was really one thing after the other. And there's so much that people don't know about that I would never say, even though I've just spilt some beans. But there's so much that went into it that I would never talk about that I went through and it was real hard. So that's probably why I get a bit frustrated at times.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  How did it change your understanding of love?

• 30:21Speaker 00

  It made me realise that that was very unhealthy. And that, I mean, you can say it was young puppy love or whatever and you're like whisked away with it. And I think now that I've experienced what healthy love is.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  With Alex.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's so nice. It doesn't make you feel sick to your stomach all the time. It doesn't make you feel icky. It doesn't make you feel like you're not worthy or you're not good enough or you could be doing everything better. And, you know, it doesn't feel competitive. It doesn't feel toxic. Like, that's exactly what I would say it was. It doesn't feel like that when you experience it the good way.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  And sometimes we get confused, right?

• 31:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, you think that's right.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  We think that's passion.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're like, they love me this much.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  This is exciting and it has to be.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  The thrill.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  I remember when I met Sophie and we were like best friends, right? And we then met each other and we started like hooking up. And I was like, I remember saying to her things like, I'm gonna go on a night out. And she was like, okay.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  And you'd be like, what? Okay. And there's no backlash with this?

• 31:31Speaker 01

  I'm gonna drink loads. Okay. And it was, I actually at the beginning got scared with Sophie because I was like, are we, is this? It was still.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  Oh, I see what you're saying. That's understandable. So you're like, there's no like fire, there's no like heated.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  There's no heated things, there's no arguments, there's no. And then what I realised is actually being still, feeling confident in a relationship is actually what you're after.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Those, we still have peaks and ups and downs.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course, that's natural.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  But it's not really up a height and then really low and then really here and really there. That isn't healthy. It's just not. You can call it passion, but that only takes you so far, doesn't it?

• 32:18Speaker 01

  What do you love about Alex?

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Everything. Oh, it's such a sop. I just, I just love how calm he is and how understanding he is and how caring he is and thoughtful he is. And like, there's things he does that fucking irritates the shit out of me, but that's fine. But like, yeah, I just feel safe with Alex. I feel just content and happy and it's not effort.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  You, um, you also went through a miscarriage twice together.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Yes, we did.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  And you had a really tough time with it.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. I feel like the first time round, it was more just, I don't, I don't know, because I, I found out I was pregnant.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Then I went to have a scan.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  And you were excited.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  And you were really excited. I was just like, oh my gosh, because it wasn't planned. And it was, I felt weird, but I was a bit like, oh, okay, maybe this is a good thing. Like, we love each other. We're gonna be together forever. So maybe it's like, okay, but I'll go have a scan and just check. But before the scan, I started bleeding. And I was thinking, oh no, maybe, maybe I'm not pregnant, but I was still, still saying pregnant on the stick and everything like that. And then we got there. Well, I went by myself, actually. I was on my own. So I went into somewhere on Harley Street, went for the scan. And then they were like, hmm, okay. And, and the woman said to me, she was like, there's no sack, there's no baby. And I thought, how embarrassing. I've imagined the whole thing. Like, I, I was

• 33:49Speaker 00

  starting to think, did I read it wrong? I'm, I'm sure it said pregnant. And I'm sure there was, I did so many of them. So I was then convinced that I'd made the whole thing up. So I was going a bit crazy. And then I went into the, you know, the, the appointment after with my gynecologist. And he sat me down and he was like, no, no, no, there's no baby. And I said, no, I understand, I understand that. I've, I've been told that. But was there ever a baby? Or was there, I'm really confused. Like, he just, and he was like, no, no, no, there was a pregnancy, darling, but now it's gone. And he was like, you've miscarried. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then I just felt weird. And then it was a bit bizarre. It was almost like, um, it felt like something that I I wasn't fully attached in a way. I know that sounds awful.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Because it was so early. It was all a bit of a.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  But it doesn't sound awful.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a bit windswepty and I was just, it was all a bit weird. So then it kind of freaked me out moving forward. And then when I fell pregnant with Axel, then the whole pregnancy, I was thinking, oh no, this could happen again. So I felt like I was scared to get attached. But then I was attached and then it was almost like scary.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Wow, no one, I I didn't even think of it like that.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Because you, of course, because you don't, you want to, so you don't want to get attached.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  You're like, well, it's, I've.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  You don't know what's gonna happen.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  But then you can't help but get attached.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  You can't help but get excited. And then the bigger you get and the more bump you get, and it's all becoming a bit real. And then you decorate the room and all these things. And luckily, my pregnancy with Axel was amazing. I loved every second of being pregnant.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Did you really?

• 35:18Speaker 00

  I was past the twelve weeks and I felt like, I felt like everything was fine. All the appointments were great. Everything was going well. I thought, right, this is it. And I just basked in it. I loved every second of it. And that kind of got me feeling a bit more positive. And I was like, right, I can do this. I've I've birthed a human. I've done it once. I can do it again. And then we got pregnant again. And then we were about twenty four weeks when we lost our baby, but we'd named him and it was all this kind of, again, I was attached, but because I'd just had Axel, I wasn't living in the headspace of, oh, something could happen. I was just like, I've just done this and I'm doing it again. And I love it. So I wasn't even thinking anything was gonna go wrong until it went wrong.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  And that was like traumatic, because I feel like when you're that far along and you have to have the procedure, it's, it's, I don't know, it's just different. No, no way to have a miscarriage is easy. If it happens at the beginning, it's not easier than it happening further down the line. It's just not nice in general, is it? And I think having to give birth to a child that you can't take home.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Oh, Perry. I'm sorry.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Oh, Perry. Jesus.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  It's awful. All I do is cry, I swear.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Don't worry.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  I'm a cancer, that's why.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  But cry, let it out. It's okay to cry.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  I can't even imagine that. You know, I can't even imagine.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Going through that experience and.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's sad, but we have his little ashes and it's like, it's just, it's just life, isn't it? It's awful and it does, it seems so unfair.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  You know, it's really important to talk about this because so many people go through this and you're helping them because they're going, well, she's gone through it, so I can get through this as well.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, that gives me some peace. Like, that makes me feel a bit more like content with talking about it.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  What would you say to someone who's experiencing that right now or just going through it?

• 37:20Speaker 00

  I think it just, there's not really anything you can say to make it easier. I don't think anything really necessarily helps, but I think for me, I'm in a position where I, I've been through it twice, but I've also got two children. So it's like, I can't even imagine what it must be like for, for the women who go through what I went through and still don't have a baby. Do you know what I mean? And I was, but it took me a while to wanna go again and I always knew I wanted more children than just one. I always knew I wanted Axel to have siblings, whether two or three or whatever. But I just didn't have it in me to get pregnant again. Like, I was just terrified. I thought it's probably best to just leave it.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  So that's why there's such a big gap now between like Axel and Alanis. It's not a huge gap, but it's not the gap I wanted, you know? Um, but it took me a lot to get over what happened to try again. And I think especially after what happened with Ace, when I was pregnant with Alanis, I was just on edge the whole time. All I did was eat. I gained four and a half stone of comfort food. And every appointment, I was just, my like, like stomach felt like it was doing somersaults and.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  It's so scary.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  I was like, just, it was just a lot. Every appointment, it wasn't enjoyable. And I, and I, that upsets me because. I love being pregnant. I love the feeling of it. I love carrying a baby. I feel powerful. I feel like untouchable. It's it's it's wild how you feel. That I'm like sad that during the pregnancy, I didn't get to enjoy it fully until the very end, really. Cause I was just always on edge.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Cause you feel like that that's sort of been taken from you.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And we had so many extra scans, like the Alanis was scanned more than any baby in the history, I think, ever. I was like, give me one more. I'll have one more. Fancy another one? Honestly, fancy another. I couldn't get enough scans just for reassurance, because I was just so scared.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's so understandable.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  I wanna also mention Alex as well, because, you know, if a partner is listening to this right now and their wife or whoever is going through it, what would you say to the partner? How does how does the partner react? What does the partner need to do, say, to make it okay? Because they're in it, but they also need to protect their loved one, who's who's the one experiencing it.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get I get why people say it like that. And I get in the moment why Alex was like, you know, you're going through this. But it wasn't me. Obviously, I'm carrying the baby and I'm going through the procedures and I'm having to do all these things that I didn't wanna do. But he just felt for me, because he knew how hard it was and what I was going through. But then I was also looking at him thinking, but you've lost our baby too. Do you know what I mean? And he'd planned all these things and what we wanted to do. And we're gonna have two running around and this, that and the other. And we had all the stuff ready, like, it was just, I think for him, he put on a brave face and he kind of dealt with it. Because I think that's what a lot of men are told to do. And I hate that shit. I hate that. I don't think that's healthy at all. Why should men have that mentality?

• 40:26Speaker 00

  And why should they be taught that from a young age as well? They should be taught how to feel.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  And men would probably be more decent if they were taught their emotions. Yeah, it's okay to feel.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  It's okay.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  It's okay.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  It's okay to be vulnerable.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  You don't have to bury it and become crazy.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  You can cry.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can. Let it out. And I think that's, yeah, I think that's important. And I think Alex did go through the motions and he tried to toughen up and be there for me. But I know he went through it and I know he was struggling. Cause it's it's just awful.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Did you speak to the girls? Did you speak to the band members?

• 40:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I spoke to the girls and they blessed them. They were sending me like hampers from the White Company and this, that and the other. And they were they were really sweet about it. It was it was awful. I think I told. Leanne at the time, because we have a group chat from when we had our babies, because we were pregnant at the same time. We did everything together. Of course, we'd be in sync with our children as well. And it was, I spoke to Leanne and I told Leanne first and I was like, babe, please, can you tell Jade? I know I would like to have spoke to Jade. But even just telling people what had happened was making me feel sick to my stomach. So once I explained it once, I kind of was like, please, can you just take it from here and let Jade know? And she was like, of course, babe, like, no problem. So that that was hard, like telling people.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  And then friends would message and be like, how's the bump? How are you feeling? Not knowing that we didn't have the baby anymore. So it was like, and then I felt bad on them. Miss people, please. I again, I'm thinking.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  You feel awkward.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  No, I feel awkward for them, having to tell them, oh, there is no baby.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  And you'd be like, it's okay, by the way, though, it's okay.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, but we're all right, like, kind of thing. It's just all a bit. It's a really hard dynamic to to go to get right, I think.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  You know, we had Jessie on and she obviously went, has been and is going through such a

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  tough time. And she said that after her pregnancy, how how you all reached out to her. How is your relationship with each other now?

• 42:24Speaker 00

  I mean, when I think everything we've been through as a group. And even though it ended in ways that I wouldn't have wanted it to, and we're not that close anymore, and we're not in each other's lives. I still feel everything that the girls feel, and I think they're the same. We'll always have that weird connection. And seeing Jessie go through that, it broke me because I, you wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's literally wild. And as much as we've got our issues and, you know, I think I I don't want to see her go through that. I don't want to see her hurt and I don't want to see any of that. It's heartbreaking.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  You know, you, because the really interesting, what you you said is that when we talk, we talk about breakups, right? And you talk about your breakup with Zane and that being public and how tough that is. What you, you know, you sang about writers, when you have friend breakups.

• 43:19Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  You know, like I, I broke up with a friend as well.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Well, he sort of broke up with me, I think, more than I broke up with him.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  It was traumatic.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  It is.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  It was.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  It's hard.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  I was like, sorry, am I sixteen again on like being broke, like what is this?

• 43:36Speaker 00

  It hurts, doesn't it?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it really hurts. My friend, he said to me, um, that we can't be friends for, for now. And I went, because of what? He said, because of the selling things. Anyway, it wasn't my fault, right?

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  But it was a really tough thing for me and it took me about a year to get through it.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Because I was suddenly like, hang on a second, you, you lose that sort of sister, you lose that brother.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  It's really tough to go and no one really talks about that, do they?

• 44:01Speaker 00

  No. And when you're used to living in each other's pockets for so long and telling them everything and being like experiencing everything with this person when they're gone. It is just as hard as a breakup, I think, especially when you don't get closure. That's the worst of it. That's the worst part. If you get closure after a breakup, it cushions the blow. But I think when that's it, it's done and you've got no say in it anymore. It's almost like, well, hang on a minute. You don't get that, like, you can't shift that out of your system, can you?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Are you, you're like me, you need closure as well.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  I need closure.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  I can't move on without closure.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  I, I need to be told those things. I, I, and I, I find it so hard.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  I know.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  It, it's, it, what are you like in an argument? Do you have to?

• 44:43Speaker 00

  I'm not good in arguments. I'm not good with confrontation. I like, I'm quite quick witted when it comes to funniness. But when it's serious, my brain doesn't think, I can't, I can't argue because I get overwhelmed and I'll just cry. And that's annoying in itself. So I just cry the whole time and it's just a nightmare. I'm not good at arguing unless I'm sticking up for somebody else. If I was like arguing for, for a friend, I wouldn't back down. But when it's me, I'm like, oof, I just, I hate it.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  So you've got that, so you wouldn't back down.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  No. If, if I was fighting for somebody that I cared about, I would just be like a bulldog. But with myself, I'm like, oh, I haven't got time for this.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you have this heart, that's why it hurts so much. That's why when you have this, that's like, it's, it's almost.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  It's too much.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  It's too much.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  I can't handle it, I can't hack it.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  You know, your lyrics in Same Place, Different View says, say you'll change, when will you mean it? It's always a stormy season. Time and time, I've tried to see the best in you, but no use. When you see my red as blue, we're on different pages. So there's nothing I can do, me and you, in the same place, different view. Beautiful.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Thank you. I think it's just like, sometimes you just won't win with people. You just don't say eye to eye at all. You could talk, you could discuss something with somebody for hours and hours and hours, and still at the end of that discussion be like, well, I still think this and you still think that. And that's what it kind of came to. And what annoys me the most, again, I have to be careful how I say this because I don't want to seem like a bitch. But for me, what upsets me the most is when situations like this happen. When the other person doesn't take any accountability, that boils my blood. I'm not blaming everything on you. I'm not saying she's this fucking monster and, and everything was her fault and blah, blah, blah.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  But take some accountability for your actions and realize you were difficult. You did have difficult moments. Granted, there was reasons for those moments. But you can only pick somebody up so many fucking times before you start losing track of your own sanity. And you want to be there for that person, but if they don't, if they can't accept the help and they can't accept the love that you're trying to show, how do you win? How do you get past that? You can't.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  No, because probably what you're talking about, you're talking about fairness as well.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  It's like, hang on a second, I understand there's fault here, but you need to, you need to accept that.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  I hate that. I don't like putting the blame on people. Don't put the blame on me and make me out to be something that I'm not. Yes, I'm not perfect and I might not have been there enough or I could have done better, I suppose. But I thought what I was doing was enough. I thought I'd tried everything. So then to then sit there in further interviews and discuss it publicly and be like, I wasn't supported. You were though. Do you know what I'm saying? You've, you were. So just, again, take some accountability.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Do you think you're, do you think you're still angry?

• 47:44Speaker 00

  I would say more frustrated than angry because I don't like being painted into a person that I'm not because I'm an open book. I'll tell you exactly how it is and I'm very open. I'm very to the point.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  And that's beautiful, by the way, because I can feel that from you.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have to be real.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  It's so refreshing. Because to sit with someone and I'm so open.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know you are. I watch you a lot.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I just, because it's so authentic and you are so authentic.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  And that is really important in life. You have to be.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  I think it's.

• 48:18Speaker 00

  You have to be genuine.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  You have to be.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  But it exhausts me when I see other people that I know inside and out when they're not being genuine and it frustrates me.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Do you think you will rekindle the friendship ever?

• 48:32Speaker 00

  If I'm being completely transparent, part of me wanted to until the documentary and then part of me withdrew again. And this is the thing, I'm not a horrible person. I haven't got a bad bone in my body, but I can cut you off.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Really? You can do that?

• 48:50Speaker 00

  I can cut you out of my life like that. If you upset me and you hurt me in a way, there's not really any going back. I can forgive, but I don't want you in my space. And this is what I'm learning in therapy as well. Like I'm, there's capability and there's capacity, right?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  You're capable of anything. You can achieve anything if you really go for it and you work hard, but my capacity is fucking small. I only have a certain amount of roof. Do you know what I mean? That I can cram in. I have my career. I have my relationship. I have my friends. I have things going on. There's personal things, there's public things, there's everything. I don't have the capacity for somebody like that in my life anymore. And that might make me sound like a bitch, but I just don't have the energy for it. And as much as I will always love her, I don't think I can hack that energy in my space.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  No, I think it's, it makes more sense than anything. I think I should take a leave out of that book and I think more people listening should take a leave out of that book because actually there is not enough time.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  No, there's not.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  There's not enough time to try and fix everything and make everything okay. And if you can't, you just have to let it go and move on.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  You have to just step back, yeah. You can't fix everything and you can't fix people. That's for certain. They're set in their ways and clearly they don't think there's anything wrong with them. So you think, okay, you do you and I'll do me and that's that.

• 50:09Speaker 05

  Amid the chaos of a medieval battlefield, one man raises the crown. But out of the carnage, Henry Tudor plans to give the realm he's conquered, hope. A new king, a new era, a new dynasty. England is about to fall under the spell of the Tudors. Join me, Dan Jones, for the unmissable story of a family you'll never forget. This is History: The Tudors. Watch on Spotify, YouTube, or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Your mum is called Debs.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  Debs, yeah, or Debs.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Who's more important, Alex or Debs?

• 50:49Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, Jamie. Oh, that's tough because my mum is my world. She's my everything. She's my village. She does everything for me and Alex. So me and Alex wouldn't cope without Debs.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  She really, she's that, isn't it?

• 51:02Speaker 00

  She's at home with the kids now. She's my nanny. She's my mummy. She's my best friend. She's my going out buddy. We do everything together, me and Debs. And the thought of not having her in my life is the scariest fear. My worst fear in life is not having my mum. But then I have Alex that I'm going to spend the rest of my life with. And he's then going to have to step up and be the Debs one day, you know? And that is like scary.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  You know what is my scary thing at the moment? Like, I had, I had a moment with my dad where it was during lockdown. And I think I mentioned this before, but during lockdown, he came back and he'd been on a bike ride. It was a hot day and he didn't really remember where he'd been. It was just, it was obviously a heat stroke or whatever it was.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  And it suddenly went, I had this moment where I went, well, you're not invincible. Wait, hang on a second, you're not invincible. You're not.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's hard. It's not nice, that feeling.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  And now, you know, I'm very close with my parents, but very close to my mum. My mum is just, I love my mum.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  And you think like, how many, how many more summers? How many more Christmases? How many more East? I know, and I'm getting to that stage now where I start to.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Kills me.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Where, where it kills me.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  It's the worst. I can't imagine it.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  I can't. I don't even want to talk about it, Jamie, move on. Debs is living forever.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  What's something your mum taught you that you hope you can pass on to your children?

• 52:29Speaker 00

  Um, I think my mom's always been really good at letting me be what I wanna be. She's never said, don't do that, you shouldn't do that. She's like, you just learn from it. So you, if you fuck up, you fuck up and you make it work. And, and another thing is she always says to me, which I absolutely love is there's nothing in this life we can't fix.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  And I love that.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  Cause in the moment, it feels like it's the end of the world, but there's always something you can fix, you know? And you can get past it. You get past it. It's not forever. It's not a forever feeling and you can get through it. That's what I love.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  When a door shuts, a window opens. You just find that window and get yourself through it.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  But Perry, what's amazing is that you're juggling new music, your babies, like being, how are you juggling all of that?

• 53:16Speaker 00

  With Debs.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  More Debs. She holds down the fort for me. Um, but yeah, I, I've got a very good balance of work, life, mum life, all that stuff, I think.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  But you wouldn't be you without making new music, without touring, without being on stage, without singing.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  That's, that's within your soul, isn't it?

• 53:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love it so much.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  So are you not so excited about this new music?

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I feel like I've figured out my sound a bit more now and I'm, I'm, I just love the music I was raised on.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Like what was that?

• 53:51Speaker 00

  Like pop rock, um, like a bit of punk, like Guns N' Roses, Aerosmith, Steve Perry, Journey. That's all my favorite kind of music.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Aerosmith, man.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  Aerosmith and Avril Lavigne growing up, Hayley Williams, Paramore. They are all my biggest influences with music. When I'm around the house, that's the music I wanna listen to. I wanna listen to the big ballad eighties, pop rock ballads.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  The, the, all of that is the love of my life.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  When you hear those songs, what does it do to your soul?

• 54:18Speaker 00

  It makes me feel like warm and fuzzy and like amazing inside. I love that feeling.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  So greatest song for you of all time?

• 54:27Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, that's impossible.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Do you have to pick it?

• 54:30Speaker 00

  The first song that came to my head was probably Aerosmith. Don't wanna miss a thing. That's gotta be one of the greatest songs I've ever written, no?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Without a fricking doubt.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  Without a doubt, right?

• 54:40Speaker 01

  I don't wanna close my eyes.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  I don't wanna fall. 'Cause I miss you, baby.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  And I don't wanna miss a thing. Even when I dream of you. The sweetest thing I'll never do, I still miss you, Perry.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Sing it.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  And I don't wanna miss a thing. Thank me, can I just say?

• 55:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  You're fricking brilliant, man.

• 55:06Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Just.

• 55:08Speaker 00

  So are you.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  No, no, honestly, you're so great.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  You're, I wish other people, I wish people listening, watching, and I could feel the energy of you. Your energy is just, I, this sounds, it sounds weird. You, you would be, you're just such, you, you, you're an amazing mother.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Oh, that's lovely.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  You're an amazing mother, amazing friend. You can just feel it.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, on you. It's just a, it's a lovely aura to be around.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  I love that. Thank you so much. You are too.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Listen, we're gonna leave all the links to all of your music in the show description, everything.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  That'd be lovely, thanks.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I want everyone to go and check out every single one of your songs.

• 55:48Speaker 00

  Oh, that'd be great. Get them streams up, will we?

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Get those fricking streams.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, go on.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Listen, Perry, we'd like to finish our conversation with eight questions. Are you ready?

• 55:58Speaker 00

  Okay, yep, ready.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  What's a single phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Don't worry, be happy.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Okay, don't worry, be happy. Best compliment anyone's ever given you?

• 56:10Speaker 00

  The one you just gave me, then.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  But it's true, by the way. That's genuine. I promise you, your aura is just beautiful.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  That's so nice.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  What scares you most about yourself?

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Uh, not trusting my own intuition. Hmm.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, terrifies me. I feel like my gut's very strong and I don't listen to it often, but I should.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Apart from today, last time you cried?

• 56:35Speaker 00

  I was gonna say that five seconds ago. Uh, when did I last cry? Yesterday.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  It's not a regular occurrence that much. It just so happens that it was yesterday.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  What happened yesterday?

• 56:49Speaker 00

  I just felt very lovey dovey and in my feels.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  What's something you can't let go of?

• 57:01Speaker 00

  Singing.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. What's your guilty pleasure?

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Probably like a good teen rom-com. Like The Summer I Turned Pretty, Off Campus, which I'm watching now and it's so...

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Is it good? Wait, hold on, is it?

• 57:15Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, I'm honestly...

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Is it that good?

• 57:18Speaker 00

  Obsessed!

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh!

• 57:21Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, I can't wait to get in the car, as much as I love your company. I can't wait to get in the car and watch it. I've downloaded the episodes on my iPad. I'm on episode 6 or something.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Is it that good?

• 57:30Speaker 00

  It's so good. I thought The Summer I Turned Pretty was good. And then, but it's wild though, because the first episode, you just sing tits, tits, ass, tits. It's quite like... Bonchey. But it's really good.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Wait, what's this called?

• 57:42Speaker 00

  It's called Off Campus.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Off Campus. Are they all hot?

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  My gosh, they're hot. It's just brilliant. It's so good.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Shit, I need to watch this.

• 57:52Speaker 00

  You should. Did you watch The Summer I Turned Pretty?

• 57:54Speaker 01

  I didn't watch it, no. Sophie did. She loved it.

• 57:56Speaker 00

  Did she? Say she will love Off Campus. Oh my gosh, tell her to get it on tonight.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  What turns you off?

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Uh, arrogance.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  100%. What turns you on?

• 58:08Speaker 00

  The way people talk to people and the way they handle a room. That is like a big turn on.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Does Alex handle a room?

• 58:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  He walks in a room and he owns it. But in a nice way. Like quite badass, but also quite humble. He's got a perfect balance. It's just really good. I don't know, he's got something about him. He's very like...

• 58:28Speaker 01

  He's really badass, but also humble.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Quite charismatic and like, do you know what I mean? He's just so funny.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  That is sexy.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  It's so sexy.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  That means he knows himself very well.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Yes, and I like that. He's got a very silent, like, confidence in himself. I love that. So fit.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Bonus one.

• 58:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Favorite little mix song, give it to me.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  I might have to go. Do you know what? Today I'm feeling power. Yeah. I'm feeling power. That's a bop, isn't it?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Not Shout Out To My Ex.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  I do love Shout Out To My Ex and it was such a moment in time and it was a great campaign. Number one for ages. Really defined us as a girl group, but power today is what I'm vibing.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Do you remember that viral wave you did?

• 59:18Speaker 00

  Viral wave?

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Didn't you do a viral wave when you were singing that song in the audience?

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, but that wasn't real, was it? It was edited. Yeah, it was edited, but how good would that have been if it was real? That would have been so sick, wouldn't it?

• 59:28Speaker 01

  You're singing.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Shout out to my ex.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  That would have been unreal. Never been in the same room since the breakup, but that would have been iconic.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Shout out to her.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  I really adore you, the greatest company ever. Thank you so much.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  You're amazing.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  Loved that.

• 59:51Speaker 06

  Wasn't expecting to cry.

• 59:58Speaker 05

  Amid the chaos of a medieval battlefield, one man raises the crown. But out of the carnage, Henry Tudor plans to give the realm he's conquered, hope. A new king, a new era, a new dynasty. England is about to fall under the spell of the Tudors. Join me, Dan Jones, for the unmissable story of a family you'll never forget. This is history, the Tudors. Watch on Spotify, YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.