Pod Insights Good Life Project The Truth About Power, Money & Freedom | Spotlight Convo About this episode Unlock your power to create the life you want on this insightful episode. Vivian Tu shares bold strategies for building real wealth, while Kemi Nekvapil redefines power as an empowering dance of presence, ownership, wisdom, equality and responsibility. Hear their thought-provoking perspectives on money, equality, agency and living a truly good life.
Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/the-truth-about-power-money-freedom
You can find Vivian at: Website https://www.yourrichbff.com/richaf | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/your.richbff | Listen to Our Full-Length Convo with Vivian https://episodes.fm/647826736/episode/NjU3OGM4MWE0ODNkZDcwMDE2MDRiNmQ2
You can find Kemi at: Website https://www.keminekvapil.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/keminekvapil/ | Listen to Our Full-Length Convo with Kemi https://episodes.fm/647826736/episode/NjRhODY3ZGVjNjMyYzAwMDEyN2U0OGFl
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Transcript 15,352 words · 6 speakers
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0:00 Speaker 00 I believe that power is a dance. I talk about the power of delight. I talk about the power of fun. It is not this necessarily this intense dominant force. It can be beauty and fun and connection and it can be abundant and we can share it with others. And one thing that I know for sure is that if I'm truly in my power, I'm not afraid of yours. I don't need you to make yourself smaller. I don't need you to hide in the cupboard so that I can be bigger. I can actually stand alongside you. You can stand alongside me and together we can have power in the world to do things in a particular way.
0:36 Jonathan Fields? So tell me if you've ever felt this, like you're kind of boxed in by someone else's blueprint of how you quote should live. Or maybe you've achieved certain material trappings of success, you know, checked all the boxes, yet still feel a void or lack of fulfillment and power and agency that you want over your life. The wealth, freedom that you'd love to experience, none of this really quite arrives in the way you thought it would. If so, then this illuminating spotlight conversation is for you. It's part of our wrap up actually of our special new beginning series this month on Good Life Project where each week we've been exploring together how to create a fresh, meaningful start, one step at a time. And today our guests provide a really deep dive on redefining wealth and dismantling
1:19 Jonathan Fields? conventional notions of power and reassembling power in your own personal way. Our first guest is Vivian Too, a former Wall Street trader turned personal finance wizard on a mission to demystify money mindsets. And Vivian's journey, it really shows how she reclaimed her power by redefining success and wealth entirely on her own terms, in an industry rife with inequality and harmful narratives about self-worth. And she'll share hard-won insights on cultivating a wealthy mindset to unlock your full earning And then next up, you'll hear from Kemi Neve-Pill, one of Australia's leading coaches empowering female leaders and entrepreneurs, especially those from marginalized communities, with profound wisdom from really extraordinary life experiences.
2:04 Jonathan Fields? Kemi is deeply passionate about helping others reclaim their power and live without apology. And she'll dive into how we unconsciously give away our power and the transformative process of integrating all parts of ourselves to live and lead authentically. Together, Vivian and Kemi will really help us reimagine what true power looks like, not as an intense dominating force, but as this beautiful expression of presence and self-ownership and authentic connection and abundance to be shared. So excited to share this spotlight conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
2:48 Speaker 02 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.
3:21 Jonathan Fields? Good Life Project is sponsored by Steel. So I am not in the studio today. I'm actually out on the trail in the Rockies at about 6,000 feet above sea level in Boulder. The leaves are exploding with color and it's just stunning out. And yes, I'm wearing my favorite Steel hat. And just last night, I was wearing one of my favorite Steel jackets, which, if you know me, is not unusual. I wear the hat almost every day and my Steel jackets pretty much live on me all fall and winter. There's even a Steel shop back in town, practically in my backyard. Here is why I love them. Steel is designed and tested in Jackson Hole at the base of the Tetons by locals who ski and bike and hike and climb and fish there. Pretty much every day. They have been at it since 2011. So they know warmth and
4:04 Jonathan Fields? they also know style. Everything I have from them, it works great. It holds up in every condition and also looks awesome. And their hometown down is 800 Phil Down, but it feels more like just your favorite hoodie than a puffy. And ski season is almost here, so gear up now the way that the locals do. Go to stio.com/goodlife for 20% off your order. That's S T I O dot com slash good life. stio.com/goodlife. Stio, designed and tested in Jackson Hole. Good Life Project is supported by Ernesta rugs. So a small confession, our front porch has been the most neglected corner of our home since we moved in. It's the first thing anyone steps onto and it's been kind of greeting people with a sad, too small mat. Ernesta
4:47 Jonathan Fields? sent me their samples and now they're making us a rug. And the cool thing is for $10, you get five oversized 12 by 12 samples. So you see the colors at real scale in your own space before you even get it. So we lived with all five colors for a few days and cool morning light and golden afternoon light. And we're sure to be roused on the sky, but Caldwell just kind of kept quietly winning. The thing you're certain about isn't always the thing that fits. And because Ernesta rugs are custom size, cut to the ins, the one we ordered is made to our exact six and a half feet by nine feet space, not close enough. Visit ernesta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 toward any rug of your choice. That's E R N E S T A dot com.
5:33 Jonathan Fields? Hey, so our first guest is Vivian too, a former Wall Street trader turned personal finance expert, educator, and founder of the giant platform, Your Rich BFF. She's on a mission to make the financial industry just more inclusive and clearer, really for everyone. Vivian has amassed millions of followers by redefining money mindsets and de-stigmatizing financial literacy with this really trademarked fun, digestible approach. Her financial prowess culminated in the New York Times bestselling book, Rich AF, The Winning Money Mindset That Will Change Your Life, billed as the definitive guide to personal finance for a new generation. And in this conversation, you'll hear her fresh kind of no BS tips on how to think like a rich person, maximize earning potential,
6:18 Jonathan Fields? understand different investment vehicles and accounts, identify little known tax loopholes and strategies, and ultimately build a smart, personalized money strategy of your own.
6:29 Jonathan Fields? And Vivian shares practical advice on steps like building an emergency fund, paying down high interest debts and investing early and consistently, even with small amounts when you don't have much to put into those investments. Her mission is to make knowledge and secrets of the wealthy accessible to all, especially marginalized communities historically left out of financial services. So whether you're just starting out or looking to level up, maybe you feel like you're a little further into life and you quote, "should have started earlier," just dive in. I love how it's sort of grounded and practical her take is. This conversation will really help to start equipping you with the tools to understand the financial landscape and live a life of wealth and abundance. And that gives you so much more power and freedom
7:14 Jonathan Fields? in how you want to step into that life. Here's Vivian. So it's really interesting. You literally start out your new book with the line, "I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the American dream is dead." Take me there.
7:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, I think when I think about my parents' generation, right? It was a blueprint that you were supposed to follow. You could be a decent student, go to college, get a degree, get a desk job. You could be the sole breadwinner in your house. You could live an amazing, middle-class life. Go on vacation to Florida or Disney World or whatever, twice a year. You would go on two vacations. You would be able to afford a home eventually. You would build your wealth along with the real estate market, which only goes one way, frankly. And you would live your happily ever after. And since then, I feel like my, I'm a millennial.
8:12 Speaker 03 So my generation and the generation after mine, Gen Z and even Gen Alpha now, we're looking around and we're like, hey, I don't know if this playbook works anymore. Because we did everything we were told. We were good students. We did go get those degrees. And now we have a student debt crisis. There are trillions of dollars of student loan debt that needs to be paid back. And a lot of students ended up getting degrees that didn't pay back, that didn't have the ROI they were looking for. Not to mention, wages have stagnated. The cost of housing has, in many cases, depending on where you live, somewhere between three to 10xed.
8:55 Speaker 03 And life just doesn't necessarily look like it did back in the good old days. And so I think it's really important for us to address that the way to wealth, the way to financial security and stability is not the same as it was decades ago.
9:12 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? Because I think we work on a set of assumptions about the way the world is when it comes to opportunity and potentially wealth building. Just if we do a certain thing, if we show up a certain way, the X, Y, and Z will happen.
9:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
9:27 Jonathan Fields? And we trust in that. And I feel like what you're describing is right, you know? That kind of worked for a couple of generations. But the truth is also, I think, when you look underneath that, it also kind of worked for certain people.
9:41 Speaker 03 Correct.
9:41 Jonathan Fields? And it didn't work for other people, you know? So what you're describing as that American dream, it was never really the American dream that was inclusive in any meaningful way.
9:51 Speaker 03 No.
9:51 Jonathan Fields? This was like for a certain group of people who showed up in a certain place in a certain way. Yes. And now I think what you're describing is now that sort of, you know, sense of anointing has gone away across the board.
10:05 Speaker 03 Yeah.
10:05 Jonathan Fields? And people are grappling with this fact like, okay, so what do we do now? Because we have this conversation. You've built a global community where you're in there serving every single day and answering a lot of questions. It sounds like part of what you realize goes back to the earlier part of our conversation too, which is that yes, a lot of people don't know this information, but also particular communities of people really don't know this information. It's almost like there's a gatekeeping effect. And it sounds like part of what you start to step into is let me not just kind of show what I know, but I really want to actually heal a chasm here. There's a very particular thing that I want to speak to, and there's information that I want to get into the hands of particular groups and communities of people.
10:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, I love that you bring that up because. There is so much emphasis, I call my audience the BFFs, and I've lovingly dubbed them the leftovers. Because for so long, if you weren't an old, rich, white guy wearing a Patagonia vest on CNBC, financial services didn't cater to you. If you were a woman, you weren't even allowed to have a credit card in your own name until the mid 70s. If you were a person of color, it was totally possible that your community would be redlined and you would be prevented through unethical and certainly illegal means from buying a home in certain neighborhoods. If you were a part of an LGBTQ couple and you walked into a bank to try to get a mortgage,
11:28 Speaker 03 odds are good you would be discriminated against. You would get a higher mortgage rate with worse terms than if you were part of a heterosexual couple. And people have not had the same opportunities. So I think it's really important to call out these injustices as well as just make this financial information accessible and understandable. Because anybody can Google the financial rules. But I talk about this in my book, Rich AF. Like, we don't need just the rules. We need to be taught a strategy, a financial strategy. Because you can learn the rules, but you still don't know how to play the game.
12:04 Jonathan Fields? Riffing off that last word, game. And one of your lenses is like, well, this is kind of a game. And like any game, there are cheats, there are loopholes. And this isn't like slick, hey gimmicky type of things. But there are actually, there are techniques, there are things that people are just not aware of that people who have access to different information, to different advisors, to different circumstances are. And one of the things you address is sort of like the power of loopholes. When you're really thinking about like, how do I develop a strategy?
12:33 Speaker 03 Yeah. I will say this. Tax codes, financial strategies, career how-tos, how-to budgets, savings loopholes, anything like that. These were all written by rich people for rich people. And they've passed these secrets down in their communities for generations. But many of us don't know these things. Did you know that you can be taxed less if you Contribute to a retirement account. Now, suddenly, it's not just today you taking care of future you, but it's also today you getting a tax break for doing so. You know, do people understand how high yield savings accounts offer so much more in earnable interest than a traditional brick and mortar savings account?
13:15 Speaker 03 If you didn't know that, you're missing out and you're still giving your bank a near interest free loan. Did you know that if you set up direct deposit so that a percentage of your paycheck goes towards a specific savings account? Instead of all on to your checking account, psychologically, you are less likely to dip into that money. You're going to be a better budgeter. You're going to be able to save more. You're going to be able to save on your taxes. You're going to be able to invest. All of these are secrets, but they shouldn't be. They should be easily accessible to the public. And I just, you know, really think that this information should be taught in public schools and until it is, I'm going to be shouting it from the rooftops. What I like to remind everyone is that the top performer never gets fired, never.
13:57 Speaker 03 If you are performing at that high level, if you are outselling, outperforming the people you sit around, the people who are in your team, you will always be safe and it's really important to acknowledge that even during times of instability at a broader level. If you are a strong performer, you can still ask for more money because you still have value and you still have worth. And you are providing something that that company needs. And I think it's okay to ask because even if you get told no, you're no worse off than you were 20 seconds beforehand. And so I think regardless of the year, regardless of the environment, you can still ask.
14:41 Speaker 03 And I recommend people ask for 10 to 15% raises every single year as long as they are performing to that level. Am I saying you're going to get that every single year? Not necessarily. But if you don't get a raise the same percent that inflation is currently at, you know, at one point it was at like eight, nine percent. I think right now it's come in a little bit closer to like 5%. If you're not getting a raise equivalent to that of inflation, you're actually going to make Less next year than you did this year. And so not only is it critically important to make sure your pay keeps up with inflation, but also seeing how much your corporation values you through pay is a very healthy marker to understand where you sit.
15:24 Speaker 03 And if you have been told year after year, your performance is not where it needs to be to get that raise, that tells you something. Or if they consistently say, hey, you're our top performer, but we don't have budget, that also tells you something. Maybe it's time to go somewhere where they will have budget to pay a top performer like you.
15:38 Jonathan Fields? I'd love to get granular for a moment, if you're open to this. Let's say somebody's listening to this and they're like,
15:43 Speaker 03 Yeah, let's do it.
15:44 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, okay, that makes sense to me. And I actually have been a top performer. You know, like there's been a lot of change, a lot of shifting, but I'm the one who keeps staying here. And I feel like I'm doing really good work. But also I see the macro trend here. I see the impact on my company or my team or my division, whatever it is. And I know things are tight, but I still need what I need.
16:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:03 Jonathan Fields? What would be some basic language that somebody might be able to actually step into to sort of like open this conversation?
16:10 Speaker 03 Yeah. First and foremost, I highly recommend everybody create a brag book promo pitch raise receipts folder in their email. Essentially anytime you get an email that pats you on the back saying, hey, we could not have gotten this project done without Jonathan. Like Vivian is the best designer on this entire team, like whatever. Forward those emails. That way you essentially have a rolodex of all of the times you knocked it out of the park. And it's very easy to quantify your successes. I would then set time with your manager, six to eight months before your end of year review or mid-year review. That's when you start asking for money. Because what everyone likes to do is they wait until November or December.
16:55 Speaker 03 And they are too afraid to ask throughout the year. So they like bottle it up, bottle it up. And then it starts to bubble to the surface, bubble to the surface, bubble to the surface. And you get to December and you're like, if I don't get a raise next year, I'm going to quit. And your boss is like, where is this coming from? Like, we've never talked about this. It feels so out of left field. Whereas if you start six months in advance, eight months in advance, and don't be annoying, but be persistent. Remind them every two months that, hey, these are the goals that I'm setting. Here's how I'm tracking to reach them. Additionally, I would like, or, you know, a raise of X, Y, Z would be commensurate to the type of work and the level that I'm operating at. Remind them that pay is important to you because they need to know.
17:40 Speaker 03 They need to know that you are always going to be keeping your eye on that dollar sign. And that way, when October comes and HR pulls your manager into a backroom and is like, this is your budget. You have to now divvy this budget across your entire team. You understand that your boss is going to have you top of mind because you've been asking for the past, you know, six to eight months. You've probably touched base with them two or three times. They know you care about money. You're going to be top of their mind, whereas everyone else is going to be an afterthought because they haven't asked. Essentially, you have to tell people you're going to do good work. Do the good work and then take a megaphone and remind everyone of the amazing work you did so that you can be first in line to get that money. Because you don't get paid by putting your head down and being the smartest person in the room.
18:24 Speaker 03 There has been statistic research that the person with the highest IQ is not the one paid the most. It is the person who makes the hardest effort to be known socially and people think they do more than they actually do.
18:36 Jonathan Fields? I love the fact that a lot of what you talked about is sort of like, can we dismantle some of the crazy mythology about what you have to do to actually slowly accumulate wealth and talk about the reality of the fact that it's actually pretty straightforward. There are step-by-step things that anybody can do. When you think about this sort of what to do with your money side of things, is there like one big myth or misnomer that really jumps out at you, that bothers you, that like you'd want to speak to? Or is it really just sort of like the accumulation of a lot of just little bits of misinformation that stop us from doing what we need to do?
19:10 Speaker 03 I would say it's more like death by a thousand paper cuts. It's all these little bits of information that people are just missing along the way. I think finance is very, very challenging because it's almost like speaking a new language. The jargon is so heavy. It's not abundantly clear what a 401K is based on the name. If you don't already know what a 401K is, it's not abundantly clear what the Roth in Roth IRA stands for if you don't already know. And once you do understand the jargon, it's just really about setting healthy habits in place. But I do think one of the biggest myths is that only rich people can invest.
19:53 Speaker 03 Because how do you think those rich people got rich in the first place? They were investing. It's not something that you wait to do later. It's how you get there. I joke that investing is the only way a single person can be a two household income. Because not only are you working hard for your money, your money is working hard for you. It's like having a great spouse who also brings in money and helps support the family of one without having to actually go out and date and find that person, what have you. But it just allows you to make money while you sleep. Because we as humans can feasibly only work so many hours a day. We are made of flesh and bones. Our brains do give out after a certain point.
20:38 Speaker 03 You are not as good of a money making tool as your money. Your money is a better use. So the faster you can get to your money making you more money versus your body or your brain making you more money, the better.
20:51 Jonathan Fields? If you are going to say, if somebody comes to you and says, hey, listen, finally at a point in my life where I've got a little bit of money where I can start doing something with it. And I know you're probably going to take an issue with even somebody saying, I'm finally at a point.
21:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:03 Jonathan Fields? Because your, your whole thing is like, it doesn't matter, even if it's a dollar or $10. Just start now.
21:09 Speaker 03 Yes, exactly.
21:10 Jonathan Fields? So let's forget about that. Like, if somebody just says, okay, I just want to know, like, what are the three things? If I could only think about, like, my life is so crazy, so busy, like, I just want to know, what are the three things that might be the biggest levers in what I might think about doing with money? Even if it's small bits of money as it comes in, you know, like every other week on a paycheck? What would you say to them?
21:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, I would say first and foremost, start an emergency fund. It's really shitty that the number one reason for bankruptcy in this country is medical debt. That seems like that shouldn't be the case. You don't choose to get a kidney stone, or cancer, or get sick. But it's important to have an emergency fund in case the wheel falls off your car, your roof caves in. You don't want to go into mountains of debt just because you couldn't afford that. So I would say for single people, three to six months of living expenses is good. If you are a head of household, if you have a mortgage, just some more fixed costs. I would say six to 12 months is probably a better bet. So first, have that emergency fund. Two, not all debt is created equal.
22:13 Speaker 03 I would rank your debt from highest to lowest interest rate and focus on paying off any debt with an interest rate that's higher than 7% first. Because that is high interest rate debt. Typically, anything above that is usually credit card debt. And that debt compounds faster than you will likely be able to earn in capital gains if you were to invest. So really, really, you want to pay off any high interest rate debt as soon as humanly possible. It just snowballs so fast that it's going to be hard to get under control unless you're making a concerted effort to pay it down. And then, last but definitely not least, if you have your emergency fund, if you have paid off that high interest rate debt, invest early and often.
22:55 Speaker 03 So this is as simple as putting away a dollar, two, five dollars, $10 every month. And set it up on an automatic direct deposit from your paycheck to your brokerage. And there are so many brokerages that allow you to essentially automatically allocate your dollars. And you're going to want to consider index funds. You're going to consider index funds that track the S and P 500. You might consider something that tracks the total stock market, something that tracks global indices, or sectors that you're passionate about, whether that be tech, or the pharma field, or maybe not pharma, because I got burned by that. But, you know, just whatever sectors you're really passionate about, as well as if you're really
23:39 Speaker 03 Saving and investing for a specific goal, a target date retirement fund might make sense, right? You want to save and invest for retirement. All you have to do is essentially calculate the year where you will turn sixty, sixty-five, whatever, and back into which target date fund makes the most sense for you. And it's essentially a catered way for you to always be investing in something that makes sense for your age. And that's, again, catered to the average person. If you are incredibly high net worth, maybe that doesn't make sense for you, but it's a great jump off point and it's so easy to do. And worst case, if you really feel like investing is still too complicated, just get a robo advisor to do it for you. You take a quiz about your money goals, what, you know, how much money you make, what your goals are, when you want to retire,
24:24 Speaker 03 how much money you're spending, what tax bracket you're in, whatever, and they will pick investments for you. You just need to start because time in the market beats timing the market or picking the perfect investment every single time.
24:36 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, that makes so much sense. So zooming the lens out a little bit, we've been talking a lot about money, about wealth, about worth. In your mind, what is the real role of money or wealth in a life well-lived?
24:50 Speaker 03 When I first started thinking about money and wanting to be rich, it was for very shallow reasons. I wanted to be able to buy that new designer purse, drive my lime green Lamborghini. I wanted to have the mansion on the hill. But as I've started getting to a position where I'm comfortable saying, I'm rich, I live an incredibly good life, I am wealthy, I am doing great, money has become more of the ability to have optionality in my life. Money is power, money is agency. Money is being able to take an Uber at 11:00 PM at night without double checking how much money is in my bank account, instead of taking the subway because I'm not sure if I
25:35 Speaker 03 can afford it. Money is being able to leave a bad boss. Money is being able to leave a bad relationship. Money is being able to leave a bad apartment. It gives you the power and agency to live the life you want to live without fear because it gives you choices. And so I think it's so important to encourage people to want money, to want wealth and richness in their life, because it gets them out of bad situations and lets them choose exactly how they're going to live and what a happily ever after means to them.
26:06 Jonathan Fields? Love that. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase "to live a good life", what comes up?
26:14 Speaker 03 To live a good life is to have all of your needs met and then be able to use the resources that you have to not only bring yourself joy, but help provide that joy to others, that comfort to others, and that security to others. I think it's all about spreading that wealth because when you are rich, it is not only your obligation, but it's your privilege to be able to help others, to be able to spread that wealth, to be able to spread that education so that more of us get to live a good life.
26:49 Jonathan Fields? Hmm. Thank you.
26:50 Speaker 03 Of course.
26:52 Jonathan Fields? And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Talkiatry. So you know that moment when you finally say, "Okay, I need some help"? That takes courage. And then you start calling psychiatrists. And here, we're not taking new patients, or our next opening is months away. Talkiatry exists to change that. Unlike therapy-only platforms, Talkiatry is psychiatry. It's a 100% online practice where a medical provider can diagnose conditions like anxiety, ADHD, depression, and more, and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. All 800-plus clinicians are in-network with major insurers. Take a short assessment, get matched, and have your first visit in days, not months.
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27:57 Jonathan Fields? Good Life Project is sponsored by Quince. So these days, I tend to want fewer things made well. That's how I'm thinking about gifts this year, and it's why Quince is on my list. So Quince makes elevated everyday essentials from premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and stretch denim at 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Cashmere sweaters that start at just $50, they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. Our executive producer, Lindsay, actually just ordered their organic cotton denim chore jacket in indigo blue. Her verdict, dreamy and soft. She also grabbed Quince's bees oil wood conditioner. It's made in the USA from beeswax and mineral oil. It's food safe and it's lovely on cutting boards and bowls.
28:40 Jonathan Fields? And I actually just got the yummiest button down from Quince, which is great as the weather gets cooler. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about us, let them know it was Good Life Project. It's the best way to support the show. Good Life Project is supported by Kachava. So I used to think being salty was reserved for bad moods and pretzels, but lately I have come to realize that a little salty edge actually makes life and especially dessert way more interesting. Any pastry chef will tell you that a pinch of salt isn't there to ruin the party.
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30:05 Jonathan Fields? I just love, love Vivian's take and also just her energy and the integrity and honesty that she brings to what she does and this desire to genuinely help. And next up is Kemi Nakwepil, one of Australia's leading coaches helping marginalized communities reclaim their power. And in her book, Power: A Woman's Guide to Living and Leading Without Apology, Kemi redefines power through lenses like presence, ownership, and responsibility. In this conversation, you'll learn to become really more aware of the internal beliefs and external forces that can diminish your sense of agency. And Kemi shares empowering personal stories that illuminate how we unconsciously give away or have our power taken. Her powerful questions invite self-reflection on the areas of your
30:49 Jonathan Fields? life where you may feel powerless or powerful. These prompts really reveal insights about integrating all parts of yourself to step into your full power without making others smaller. And you're getting new understandings of power, not just as this dominating force, but also as something of beauty and fun and connection and abundance to be shared. So if you're ready to live and lead your life without apology from an authentic place of equality and self-responsibility, this conversation provides a transformative framework for that journey of self-discovery. Here's Kemi. So as we have this conversation, you are in the world largely as a coach, a facilitator,
31:31 Jonathan Fields? consultant, working often with women on the topic of power, on the topic of full expression, on the topic of living the way that they want to live, more recently into this topic of power. And all the nuances around it. And I want to dive into that because it is, in fact, the subject of your new book. So this becomes at some point a central focus for you. I mean, it starts out as your own exploration. As you move into the world of exploring not just power, but also service and how to live well, and going deep into what are the elements of how people actually show up and live these good lives, like power becomes also something that you keep circling back to, it sounds like. And over time, develop your own effectively model around it. But part of that also has got to start with just
32:16 Jonathan Fields? the notion of what is power? I mean, when we're talking about that word, what are we even talking about?
32:21 Speaker 00 And I have to share that when I was speaking to my writing mentor about this book, and we were sort of brainstorming with each other about the title. And I remember just saying to him, Power and the first thing that my head said was, who do you think you are to write a book about power? Like I, once again, I had this visceral reaction of you are not allowed to go there. You do not get to speak about this. But I also knew, because I've been writing for a while, ah, this is exactly why you need to go there. You need to write this book. So the first thing I did as an English person was I went straight to the Oxford Dictionary. Because I knew we all have these ideas of what many words mean.
33:03 Speaker 00 And I thought I actually want to go to a respected source and see what it says. What is power? And the Oxford Dictionary definition of the word power is the ability or capacity to do something in a particular way. Now, that is extraordinary to me because what it shows is that we have all been told that there is only one particular form of power in the world that is generally male. That is generally Anglo, cisgendered, able-bodied, Christian. Suddenly, if it's how you do things in the world, that becomes one form of power. It doesn't become all forms of power. And then I remember talking to my editor, I had just started writing stories. So I started writing stories from my clients, working with, you know,
33:47 Speaker 00 over a decade now, working with females in leadership roles in various industries, various career levels. And I started seeing these themes of where they felt powerless in their lives or in the rooms that they found themselves in. But I started with my own stories. And as I was writing them, I believed that gender was going to be the predominant area where I found myself powerless, which maybe was naive, I'm not sure, but this is the power of writing as well. But as I started writing the stories, I was like, oh, actually, it's race. There's the intersection of gender for me. But actually, it is race as a defining factor where I have felt that my power has been taken away the most. And so suddenly I looked at, okay, so we've got this idea of power. We have a form of power in the world that everyone knows.
34:32 Speaker 00 And yet we're being told it is the capacity and the ability to do something. I remember one night thinking, I know how I want to redefine power is in the word itself. I know it's in the word. So I just wrote on a post-it night, the night before, the structure is in the word. And I just went to sleep. I woke up the next morning, I did my meditation. And in my meditation came the acronym, which is presence, ownership, wisdom, equality and responsibility. And once again, Jonathan, I didn't question it. I knew this is where all of these stories, all of my client experiences and what I'm exploring fits into this word.
35:12 Jonathan Fields? Hmm, yeah, again, trusting the download.
35:14 Speaker 00 Hmm.
35:15 Jonathan Fields? Let's drop into the model a bit. You have this acronym and it's literally the, the letters of the word power. The P, the first P there actually represents the word presence.
35:26 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
35:27 Jonathan Fields? Take me deeper into what you're actually inviting people into when you talk about presence.
35:31 Speaker 00 One hundred percent. We, we have already touched on it because it is, presence is awareness. So when I talk about presence in regard to power, it's being aware of what is working and is not working in our lives. And that our ability to be present or not has a really big impact on our ability to connect with ourselves and to connect with other people. We have to know what is going on for us before we get out into the world to try and make any shifts or changes or transformations. We have to know what in my life is good, you know, but what in my life has space for change or growth or needs to be completely overhauled. And we have to start with a place of presence, creating stillness in our lives to ask ourselves these questions.
36:13 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I mean, when you talk about creating that space, creating that stillness to really be present in the truth of whatever is. Part of that is internal, but part of it for you, it sounds like also is the truth of the systems, the society, the culture in which we function. Because especially in the context of how do we step back? Back into a place of power in our own lives. That's got to be part of the equation, right?
36:40 Speaker 00 It has to. And for me, I believe it gives us power. So for those of us that have marginalized identities, whatever that looks like, the reality is is that we are operating within systems that were not created for us. So just last week, I was working with a client who is a lawyer here in Australia. And she was in a particular room with other lawyers and she just felt herself close up. And she said, I don't know why I do that. Why? Why do I close up? I have something to say. Why do I close up? And I said to her, yes, we can have a look at your individual reaction in that space. But also, let's have a look at the context. You are not meant to be in that room. You were never meant to be in that room. So let's look at it with the larger context that you're operating under.
37:23 Speaker 00 So it doesn't just become what is wrong with me. Why can't I do that? And once again, I felt her just go, oh, of course, of course. And I'm like, okay, so can you, can we now look at some self compassion? The reason that you struggle or any woman or any person coming from marginalized identity might struggle to have a voice in that room is because you weren't meant to be in that room. And then it actually led her to this space of all of the things and the work that she has done to get in that room in the first place. And it would be a shame for her not to speak now. Like it actually ended with quite a light note. But yes, one hundred percent, we have to be present to the structures because they are real. I feel very privileged and honored to do the work that I do. I love the work that I do.
38:05 Speaker 00 And I can walk into a room as a black woman and be made to feel powerless in a moment. And that is real. That is not in my head. I have not made that up. And so for me being aware of where is this me and what is my response to this reality? Compared to this is reality that I have to navigate every single day.
38:26 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, it's got to be really interesting also because, and this is part of what you write about under the exploration of presence is the notion that on the one hand, we have to acknowledge the system we're working within and its input into the way that we feel empowered or disempowered or somewhere in the middle. And at the same time, you also don't want to let people off the hook. There's an other side to this, which is sometimes one of our go-tos is who else can I blame? So it's a really interesting dance, isn't it?
38:55 Speaker 00 It is, but the reality is with blaming other people is that it leaves us powerless. It's the complete opposite of a sense of power because it's all over there with them. And then which kind of leads to the final power principle, which is the R, which we'll get to. But if it's all over there with that person, if what they are doing, and obviously I'm not talking about any situation that involves abuse, but in situations where, you know, we're at work and just someone, oh, why don't they do their work? Or why don't they do this? It's over there. But if we were present to ourselves, we could be thinking, I'm present to the fact that I don't want to have an uncomfortable conversation with that person about their work. It is easier for me to point the finger and maybe enroll other people in the team about how they're not doing their work,
39:39 Speaker 00 which is so much more dramatic and delightful than, you know, than it is to actually go and have a difficult conversation with the person about saying, hey, you're not pulling your weight in the team and it's impacting the team. And so I believe that personal development is a gift to all of us that have the resources. And one of those gifts is that we are responsible for the changes that we want to make. It doesn't make it easier, but ultimately it is up to us to make the changes and the shifts.
40:06 Jonathan Fields? And I completely agree, you know, it's about agency at the end of the day. And, and how much of it do we want to surrender unwittingly often? What's interesting is you have this sort of meta lens, which is the model, you know, like the acronym power. But within each one of those, like the five different core elements, your approach is not to say, let me give you the answers to like how to actually like, you know, get what you want from this element and then stack the P on top of the O, on top of the R and the E. You do the exact opposite, which is you basically say, I don't have the answers here. But what I do have is a set of, I think it's 26 different questions that, that are split between the different elements that you call power processes, but effectively they're personal inquiries.
40:49 Jonathan Fields? And essentially you're saying to somebody, this is up to you. I'm going to share questions that might help you figure things out, but at the end of the day, it's up to you to both step into the question and answer them honestly, and then think about what is the appropriate action for me in response to that, which again goes back to this agency thing at the center of everything.
41:12 Speaker 00 And to me, that is the heart of coaching. You know, there is such a difference between being a consultant where I would say to a client, so you just need to follow this roadmap and then you all example have the house that you want, you know, and an architect is kind of a consultant in some ways. You want, and I'll tell you exactly what it is that you need to do. That is not my role as a coach. My role as a coach is to create a safe space for my clients where I hold no judgment. And so whenever I write a book, it's never about me telling people what to do because I don't know their lives. I don't know their internal and external resources. And to be honest, and I'm sure you'd experience this too, there is so much of the self-development world that actually makes people feel worse about themselves. And I never want to be a part of that. This idea that, well, you
41:54 Speaker 00 just do what I did and then everything will be fine, leaves people thinking, well, I couldn't do that. And it's like, well, maybe because you are nothing like that person and you don't have their resources and you don't have their story. So for me, it's about sharing my stories, sharing stories from my clients, and then, as you say, asking questions at the end. So what is a relationship in your life where you feel that you have, you know, a sense of equality and a sense of power? Or what is a relationship in your life where that isn't the case? And for people to work out for themselves where they feel powerful in their lives and where they feel powerless, and where some of that may be purely internal and where some of that may be external. Because power is when we as
42:34 Speaker 00 individuals know that we have agency in our lives. And for some people, the next step is to possibly, and I'm actually not joking when I use this example, in my, my second book, The Gift of Asking, I was working with a client around asking, and she used to order a sandwich from her local cafe every day, but she doesn't like tomatoes. So every day she'd get this sandwich that had tomatoes and she would take them out every single day. And we worked on her because she had grown up never asking for What she needed or wanted, she didn't want to be a burden and she did not want to say to the cafe owner, I'd like that sandwich, but without the tomatoes. So part of the work was for her to ask for no tomatoes.
43:13 Speaker 00 And the cafe owner said to her, oh, my goodness, I was wondering when you were gonna ask because I just have to keep throwing tomatoes away every day. Um, you know, and she was like, I thought you'd be a burden and something like this. So that's seems like a really small action for her. It was huge. She said she was trembling when she asked that question. Whereas I may work with someone in a C suite and it's a much bigger action that they need to take because the presentation that they're giving, you know, literally will depend on whether or not their company will get the job, will get the tender. So it's kind of a bigger ask for them, but it is still relevant to that person in that season of their lives.
43:53 Speaker 00 I am never pushing a client saying, but it should be bigger. You should be doing more. I've never been a fan of the phrase, do something every day that scares you. I'm like, why? Why do I want to send my system into overdrive every single, can't I just sit still? Why do I have to be scared every day? You know, so there's always, always the challenge and that push and pull of progress isn't always go, go, go, go, go. Depending on who we are and the life that we're living, sometimes progress is stop. Now, we know the amount of people that are in burnout, on the edge of burnout, coming out of burnout, through the pandemic, before the pandemic, and for some people, progress and growth is to stop
44:32 Speaker 00 and to take stock of the cost of them continually going forward in what they think is progress. Because we know the body takes us out in the end. Anyway, if we don't stop, the body takes us out.
44:45 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, always. And I, I have experienced that and I think most people probably have at some point pushing too hard.
44:52 Jonathan Fields? You know, part of what's embedded in your approach of really dropping people into questions rather than answers is also, and tell me if, if this resonates, because this is from the outside looking in, what I experienced is the notion of testing assumptions. You know, it feels like so many of us, we move through life assuming certain things are true or not true. And we never test them and those become constraints, constraints in our power, constraints in our agency, constraints in our joy and our fun and our pleasure, everything. And we just assume it is what it is. And what was underneath a lot of these questions that you offer up. Is the notion of testing the assumptions.
45:30 Speaker 00 Yes, and there's power in owning that we have them. You know, as human beings, we are judgmental. We had to be judgmental roaming around in our tribes to make sure is that person safe? What is going to happen? We make snap decisions about people all the time. It is so much more powerful to admit that than it is to pretend that we don't. Because when we admit that, as you say, then we can do the work and go, oh, why do I assume if that person looks like that? That their IQ is a certain thing or they're into a particular thing. You know, one of the things that I love to do, or not so much now, but in my early days, people just assumed that I loved hip hop. They just assumed that I knew every hip hop song that was going about. I grew up in Kent. I grew up with foster parents that loved country and western music.
46:14 Speaker 00 I grew up with Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton. I'm an absolute country and western fan, although most people might look at me and not assume that. And so I think one of the um parts, especially of the second power principle of ownership is that we own all parts of ourselves to say, no, actually, I love flowers. I love country and western music. I'm a black woman with a shaved head. I have no idea where I am in terms of geography. Most of the time I'm always getting lost. I don't like driving. You know, there are so many things that when we share these parts of ourself, that's what connects us with each other. When we can take ownership of our light and our shadow of the things that we know and things that we don't know
46:53 Speaker 00 of the parts of our stories that we've been told that don't actually belong to us, which is really big for refugee and migrant families sometimes. The stories that we've experienced, those that we've created, those that we've made up. And when we can integrate them all, we get to stand in our power in the way that we navigate the world in a way that we don't if we leave parts of ourself like I did. I used to leave parts of myself outside of rooms so that I was allowed in the room. Now for me, power is just not stepping into those rooms where I would feel that I would have to do that.
47:24 Jonathan Fields? You're certainly not the only one. The notion of leaving parts of yourself outside so that you would be quote allowed in the room. I think everybody has done that or the very minimum considered doing that. And of course, it's going to differ depending on who you are, depending on your level of status and privilege and history. Some people would probably feel more compelled to do that than not, I'm sure. And at the same time, the notion of you giving up or leaving a part of yourself out so that you can be invited in. I think when even when we do that and then we're in the room. It becomes apparent pretty quickly that we're not actually in the room. Like, there is some projection of us, some curated set list of uncancellable qualities that's in the room.
48:06 Jonathan Fields? And if that's accepted, it actually doesn't give us the feeling we want to have.
48:10 Speaker 00 100%, and it's exhausting. That's the other thing, is that it is exhausting to leave yourself outside of the room, but be physically in the room and then putting on this mask or this way of being or this way of speaking or the thing that you do say, or the thing that you don't say, so that you can be in this room, which actually means you're not even there. No one's actually meeting you. And you leave feeling less than you did when you walked in because you didn't actually bring yourself into that interaction. And I know that for some of us, it is also not safe to show our whole selves, you know? So it is, it's this dance. And I talk in the book, the book isn't about, you know, 21 days to power and then you will always be this all-knowing power forever. The book is about, we will give our power away consciously because we are smart and
48:55 Speaker 00 we know that is the best thing to do. Sometimes our power will be taken away from us and sometimes we will give it away from us by default. Once again, it goes back to awareness. When we become aware and present of why and how and with whom and in what spaces, we then start to rebuild our power in a different way. And then in a week's time, taken away from us. I have teenagers, Jonathan. I can go on stage, speak to a thousand people, plus feel incredibly in my power and like I'm a worthy human being in the world contributing. And then I get home and my teenager will just give me a glance and I, my power just leaves me and I watch it go. You know, so it is a dance, you know, in the same way that I talk about coaching. Coaching is a dance. I believe that power is a dance, that it can be, you know, I talk about the power of delight.
49:40 Speaker 00 I talk about the power of fun in the book. It is not this necessarily, this intense dominant force. It can be beauty and fun and connection and it can be abundant and we can share it with others. And one thing that I know for sure is that if I'm truly in my power, I'm not afraid of yours. I don't need you to make yourself smaller. I don't need you to hide in the cupboard so that I can be bigger. I can actually stand alongside you. You can stand alongside me and together we can have power in the world to do things in a particular way.
50:12 Jonathan Fields? Hmm, I love that. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
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52:12 Jonathan Fields? Good Life Project is sponsored by Bombas. So my wife Stephanie has been one of the great gift givers in our family. And her secret is that the best gifts often aren't the flashy ones. They're the ones that people reach for on any given day without even thinking about it. That's why so much of my list ends up at Bombas. Fuzzy Sunday slippers for the friend who lives in sweatpants from November to March. Merino wool and cashmere blend socks for anyone who runs cold. That would be me, by the way. Ski and running socks for the ones who refuse to slow down. Also me, by the way. And water resistant suede booties. So cushy. My executive producer Lindsay actually more or less lives in hers. And here's what else makes it a good life kind of gift. For every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to someone facing
52:57 Jonathan Fields? housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated. Over 200 million donations and counting. So every gift you give is really two. So head over to Bombas.com/goodlife and use the code GOODLIFE for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash good life. Code GOODLIFE at checkout. So we've sort of dipped into the notion, we've gone beyond dipping into the notion of ownership and that would be the, the O letter in the model. So built into the center, the, the center of this is wisdom, which I think is really interesting because so often, I think a lot of us probably feel that there is power
53:40 Jonathan Fields? being exercised in the world that is entirely divorced from wisdom.
53:45 Speaker 00 And there's a wisdom in knowing that you may or may not be able to do anything about that, but you can affect the wisdom that you have and the way that you show up in the world and the way that you contribute to other people. You know, one thing I say in that chapter is that we tend to outsource our lives. We need to be mindful of not outsourcing our lives. I know that you've had incredible, you know, wisdom leaders and seekers and teachers and coaches on this podcast, and I love this podcast and I listen to podcasts and I have teachers that I follow, but it's all information for me to then process for my Myself as Kemi, what works for me, what is true for me, what resonates for me?
54:28 Speaker 00 And to actually, once again, have that awareness to sit with the information and not assume it is right, but to kind of sit with it and test it and trial. And if it doesn't work, to not assume, well, there's something wrong with me. The wisdom is, well, that doesn't work for me. To think that, well, there's something wrong with me is a sense of powerlessness. To say, well, that doesn't work for me, brings us back into our power. So for me, the wisdom principle is all about not outsourcing our lives to trust and train. And we do need to train it. It is a practice. We've spoken about it. It can be trained out of us from a very early age. But to have practices that when we get a message, when our intuition tells us something, that we get to a point where we can trust it, that it is real.
55:11 Speaker 00 And then we may want to check in with our head around the how, or how does this actually work in the world? But to actually trust that innate wisdom, because it will guide us to the life that we want for ourselves.
55:22 Jonathan Fields? It feels like this also really relates back to our earlier conversation around stillness, creating this space. You know, rather than brute forcing, what is the lesson? What is the message? What is the insight? Like, I need to actually figure this out, which I think is a very Western minded way to do it also. And I'm raising my hand because I'm wired that way to a certain extent. Like, do the practice, which just creates the space and allows the insight, the wisdom, the deeper truth, to emerge from that space. But again, there's this really tough dynamic, because to do that, as you shared earlier, sometimes it means us sitting in high level of discomfort at the same time. So we're sitting in stillness.
56:05 Jonathan Fields? There's a lot of discomfort that emerges. It may be just about the reality of who we are and our circumstance. And at the same time, we're trying to tease out what is the wisdom in this moment that's being shared with me, that's being revealed to me. It's complicated.
56:21 Speaker 00 It is complicated. We're complicated. We are, you know, we are complicated and we are multi-layered and we carry around so much within us, you know, there are worlds within all of us. And some of those worlds are really scary and sitting with some of these stories that we have, sitting with what our wisdom tells us, you know, our wisdom is gonna say things to us that we don't wanna hear. Because it means going against maybe what our families told us we had to be or should be or what society is telling us we should or have to be. Why would you leave this particular job over here that gives you these particular benefits or this particular status to go and do this thing that makes sense to nobody at all?
57:03 Speaker 00 You know, one of my biggest tapping into my wisdoms, I was an actor for many years. And I loved acting. It was really fun. But when I sat with it, I realized that the biggest gift that I could give myself is somebody who had played a character for a big part of my life of trying to be someone to fit into spaces. That I didn't wanna spend the rest of my life playing characters. You know, I have great friends who are actors and I love the craft of acting. But I didn't wanna do it for the rest of my life and I had to make a decision as a young person who was earning great money, who was having adventures around the world. And decide, I had to decide something that made sense to nobody. It didn't make sense to anybody to leave a successful acting to Rick career.
57:47 Speaker 00 To go back to what I also loved at that time, which was chefing and being a baker. To kind of go back into obscurity, some would say, in some ways. But I remember that first night of Saturday service, you know, the dance, you know, news, I love using the analogy and metaphor of a dance, but for anyone that's listening that is a chef or has been in kitchens. The dance when you have a busy service and you're a team working together and you're moving in and out of each other and there's no words, but you just are creating this incredible energy together. I remember that first Saturday night and I remember thinking this may be a mistake that I've just left this career that I should have wanted. But my gosh, it feels good right now. And I will work out what and how from here.
58:27 Speaker 00 But this is the feeling of being myself in a kitchen at the end of a Saturday night service. This feels more like me than the me that I was when I was playing characters in different roles all the time. That decision was really lonely and very isolating. I'm not sure I've ever felt as lonely as I did then because no one understood why I was doing what I was doing. But I trusted myself and I'm glad that I did.
58:52 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I mean, it's that wisdom that comes from within that often is not supported externally. Until people actually you have a little bit of space and people see what's going on in a very, very past life. I was a big firm lawyer in New York City, like we're talking decades ago. I had the job that, you know, quote, everybody who went to school with me wanted. I lasted about a year and then I tapped out, not just of that job, but of the profession. One of my big concerns was what will people think? But it wasn't enough, but there was something inside of me that also knew this is not for me. This is not my path. And it was really crystal clear and it took years for some of my friends, my peers, my colleagues to understand what was really happening.
59:34 Jonathan Fields? What was interesting to me is there was a departure memo that was sent around this, you know, like to a thousand people or whatever it was in the firm. As was the way that it happened whenever someone left the firm. And mine effectively said, I'm, I'm, I'm leaving to go lead people up mountains and explore the outdoors and start my own thing. And it was the senior partners in the firm who shared notes with me that said, do it. I'm excited for you. Please keep me sort of like updated on your path. I thought that was a really powerful moment for me to realize that the people who I had normally looked to to sort of like normalize what I was doing would not normalize it. But the people who were down the path where we were all aspiring to be were telling me, hmm, maybe not.
1:00:20 Jonathan Fields? Honor that wisdom. That was a powerful moment for me. Building on the wisdom part, and by the way, I want to remind everyone that within each one of these different elements, you, there are just a whole range of very specific inquiries and questions that you offer up that I would really strongly encourage folks to drop into and sit with, not just like, you know, like jive out a quick answer, but really sit with and return to, because I thought they're, they're really simple questions often, but really powerful. Like one question under the wisdom section, who are you waiting to get permission from? Simple question, really powerful when you sit with it, because most of us probably don't think about that. And most of us probably
1:01:00 Jonathan Fields? are waiting. As we move on from wisdom, we drop into that, and that is equality. And this is something that's been weaving through our entire conversation. And it's also something that has become a central, well, it's always been a central part of your story and a really emerging part, what you're inviting people into. And also maybe of the five different components of your model of power, the one that may engender the highest level of discomfort for a lot of people.
1:01:27 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I talk about equality in kind of two ways in the book, and I think about it in this way. I have a feeling that a lot of the listeners to this podcast are contributing to global inequalities in the way that they can with the resources they have, whether that's time, whether that's financially, where I think a lot of us are very aware of the global inequalities. And yet, we sometimes miss the equality that sits inside every single one of us. You know, as I said earlier, I did not grow up thinking that I was equal to the white people around me at all. And so I just thought, well, that's my place in the world. And so, and I have to operate in a particular way. And, you know, the same speaking to friends that I identify in different ways, whatever that is, that so many of us
1:02:12 Speaker 00 have been told that who we are in the world is wrong, and that we are not equal, and that we have to wait for permission for someone to allow us into spaces or places, or give us the job or the opportunity. And for me, this idea of power that comes from the inside is knowing that our humanity is equal to everybody else. So one of the gifts of the work I do is that I facilitate groups and Australian business owners, because I live in Australia, but I know the Hunger Project does this around the world. So the Hunger Project is a global organisation that really works with people on a coaching model. So once again, it gives power and agency to the people who are hungry, that are hungry. The model is not, we will come and save you, we know what is best for you, because that's not powerful.
1:02:56 Speaker 00 Except for the person that's saying that, it's definitely not powerful for the receivers. The Hunger Project's model is all about coaching. And so I will work with, say, twenty business owners. We go over to, I've been to Uganda a few times with the Hunger Project, and we work with our village partners on the ground to look at what does leadership look like for them. And an example may be a woman, Barbara, who I'll never forget, who had a home that she was living in, that had a banana leaf roof in this village that we had visited. And her dream and her commitment and her action was to make sure that by the next time, um, the next time the rain season came, that she had made sure that roof was a corrugated iron roof. And she was so excited and she was so committed and she was so ready. Now, one of the leaders in the group, the Australian group, and we went back that night to kind of process and facilitate the day.
1:03:40 Speaker 00 She was really emotional and really moved, and I checked in with her, what's going on? And she said, I couldn't believe how excited and certain that Barbara was about her ability to have this happen, that she would have a tin roof by the time the rain season came, and how she celebrated herself and her accomplishment. And she said, I never celebrate myself, my team. We've had a high turnover in my company, I've never been able to put the finger on why. And I've realised because I don't celebrate anything or anyone, I'm go, go, go. Now, we could think, because Barbara's vision and her goal is to get something that many of us just have, it's a privilege that we have a roof over our head that doesn't have rain coming through it.
1:04:25 Speaker 00 But how she responded to that, her humanity in her celebration was a mirror to the person that had so many more external resources than Barbara had, but it still gave her something about her leadership. Another thing for me is that I've had the honour of speaking on a panel on Richard Branson's Necker Island. Now, so I've been in a space with Richard Branson, I'm in a space with village leaders in Uganda, and one thing I know for sure, Richard Branson has more external resources than those leaders in Uganda, there is no doubt about that. But when it comes to their humanity, exactly the same. There is no one that is less or more worthy than the other. They are humans having human experiences with challenges, different challenges, but challenges.
1:05:10 Speaker 00 And I think we miss that. We are all humans at our core. None of us are better or worse than the other. Life is complex, it is challenging, and it can be delightful, and we're all in it together.
1:05:23 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, and and as you share and invite people into the notion that if we start from that place, and then we say that equity, that recognizing this, that resourcing it, that standing behind it, advocating for it is important to us, we may well also be inviting some level of discomfort, different for different people into our experience. And that's part of what we're saying yes to.
1:05:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:05:46 Jonathan Fields? And to say yes to the whole thing, because you can't really parse that out, you know, that that is a part of the exploration when you're actually stepping into this, this place of not just inquiry but action taking.
1:05:57 Speaker 00 No, exactly. And if I was working with a client, say for example, and a client said to me, oh, I just feel like that person is, you know, is is less than me, or they just, you know, they're just, they don't have as much status as me, or something like that. Once again, I wouldn't make it about the other person. I say, what is it about that person that makes you feel that they're less than you? Like, what what is that? And it could be, oh, their English isn't as good as mine, or they haven't been to the same school that I've been to. I mean, that was one thing for me that was huge for many years. I did not have the opportunity to go to university. My childhood was very much about survival. So I, and I know for many people that have not attended university, it is a huge Thing where we make ourself less equal to those that have a higher education than we do.
1:06:40 Speaker 00 Because that is part of the narrative of power. If you have a university education, then you have a particular status and you get a particular role in the world. And as you say, though, you can have a particular status and a particular role in the world. And it doesn't necessarily give you what you want. It gives you a level of education, but it doesn't necessarily give you the good life. There are many ways to achieve and build and vision and create a good life. And knowing that we are worthy of that life is one of the most important things. And we don't need to feel worthy every single day in every single moment, because that isn't always possible for all of us. But it is feeling worthy enough in the moment to press send on the email. Or feeling worthy enough in the moment to pick up the phone and have the conversation.
1:07:22 Speaker 00 Or to ask for the raise or to go on the holiday for no reason other than I want to go there. You know, that just being worthy enough in moments and over time that builds up to know my quality is intact and I'm allowed to be in the world.
1:07:36 Jonathan Fields? And that really drops us beautifully into the last element of your model, which is responsibility, which which it's funny because it it spells out a word. It's almost linear, but I really view this as a circular experience. You know, this is something where just everything keeps winding around and informing the next thing. And it brings us back to the notion of agency, which is a lot of where we started our conversation too. It's really about how are we going to step into this and honing the fact that it is actually up to us. And responding to that invitation rather than just waiting for somebody to tell us what the next step is.
1:08:10 Speaker 00 One hundred percent. And I I love responsibility. Like, I know that for some people, it it can feel like a burden, which is different to having responsibilities. You know, having responsibilities can feel burdensome. But having responsibility for your life doesn't make life easier. Let me just put that caveat in there. Sometimes it makes it harder. Because you know no one is coming. And just to quickly tap back into ownership. One of the gifts for me of being fostered and one of the gifts for me being black in a very predominantly white world, two things. One. I knew no one was coming to save me. I just knew that. I knew no one was coming to save me. And in reading fairy tale books at that time, that were all white princesses with white princes.
1:08:54 Speaker 00 There were no princesses that looked like me that were ever saved by princes. So I've never had this idea that anyone was coming to save me and that I would need to, in inverted commas, save myself. The shadow side of that has been that I've also had to make sure that I haven't veered too much into no one can help me. You know, we write the books we need. So my second book, The Gift of Asking, that asking is a vulnerable act and vulnerability was really scary for me because it's like, well, what's going to happen if you're vulnerable? And you're not allowed to have feelings. But for me, responsibility is the gift because it gives us agency in our lives. We we take ourselves out of the passenger seat, hoping that the person that's driving is going to go the right way, hoping that they're going to turn a left when we want them to, although we haven't told them we want to go left, they go right, and then it's their fault.
1:09:38 Speaker 00 But it is scary. It's scary to be responsible for our lives. It's scary to realize that no one is going to come and say, hey, do you know that job that's sucking the life out of you? You don't have to do it anymore. It's scary to say, hey, do you know this relationship that you're in where you feel less than who you are? You should probably leave that relationship now. You know, most of us know not to tamper with people's relationships anyway. So there probably is not anyone coming saying that. But we have to take ownership for ourselves and the lives that we want. And as I said, it is not easy. We have to take the first step. We have to be the one that kind of straps on our shoe and ties up the lace and says, look, I, I'm not exactly knowing necessarily where I'm going, but I know what I'm moving away from.
1:10:19 Speaker 00 I'm moving away from this idea that I have to wait for someone to give me permission to live the life that I want, or the life that I know that I deserve, or the life that I'm not even sure if I deserve it or if I want it, but I'm willing to give it a good crack anyway and see what happens.
1:10:32 Jonathan Fields? Um, yeah, I mean, that really resonates powerfully. And and part of, when you dive into these specific questions around each element, part of what you're inviting people to explore also, is in different ways, the notion of what actually matters to me.
1:10:44 Speaker 00 Um hum.
1:10:45 Jonathan Fields? So when we actually stand in a place of agency and responsibility, and then, you know, like to actually, and as you described, you may know what you want to move away from at that particular. Season, you may not know what you want to move towards. But if you start to this, start into this process of inquiry to ask yourself, what actually matters to me? That I feel like is the thing that starts to reveal the what am I moving toward? Because it helps reveal like what is worth mattering to me and what is worth investing energy in.
1:11:15 Speaker 00 And that's what I love so much about coaching and questions because there are so many different angles of which people can explore the answers for themselves. So there is, there's what's matters, what matters to me. There's how do I want to feel? Just working with a client recently, how do you want to feel? And her answer was, I want to feel. You know, she's come to the end of a business that she's been working in for nearly 20 years. Said, how do you want to feel? She said, I want to feel free and at ease. I said, how do you currently feel? The exact opposite. You know, she was like, I feel the exact opposite. But that then led us to a path of what feeling free and feeling ease would be. And it means making some really difficult, challenging decisions. But now she knows how she wants to feel in the world.
1:11:59 Speaker 00 Another one as well is what don't you want? Sometimes it's really hard, especially for women, to identify what it is they want for themselves. Because we have been socialized to know what everyone around us wants, to make sure that we are available all the time. And to make sure that nobody is put out by any needs or wants that we may have. So sometimes asking a woman, what do you want? She actually has no idea. Sometimes the way in is what don't you want? And then that can be the path in, that can be the first step. Questions are so powerful because it gives agency to the other person. And we get to be curious about ourselves. We move away from this is me, this is what I do, that's just who I am. And of course, as we get older, there are certain parts of our personalities that are very much cemented and set in stone.
1:12:44 Speaker 00 But we have to be careful that those phrases and that narrative doesn't make our world and our lives really, really small.
1:12:52 Jonathan Fields? Hmm. So powerful. In this context, in the conversation around power and the conversation around agency and responsibility and wisdom and ownership and all these amazing things. And in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
1:13:07 Speaker 00 To give ourselves spaces to be present in our lives, whether that's watching a butterfly, whether that's being present in the relationships that really matter to us, whether it's being present in our bodies, but creating spaces and places where we can have moments of presence and obviously grow flowers, whether it's one pot, because it reminds us every day that there is beauty and things die and things grow and things happen and yet the flowers always return. So I also think, you know, gardening or flowers also is a really great measure.
1:13:40 Jonathan Fields? Hmm, thank you. So much gratitude to both of our guests today. What a powerful exploration into reclaiming sovereignty and building lives of authenticity. Vivian showed us how getting financially in power provides the choices to walk away from situations that no longer serve us and can we redefine power itself, guiding us to embody presence and ownership, wisdom, equality and responsibility in order to fully inhabit our truth. I hope their insights inspire you to let go of disempowering narratives, align with those core values and take courageous action towards the life you truly want to live. If you loved this episode, be sure to catch the full conversation with today's guests. You can find a link to each of those episodes in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project
1:14:24 Jonathan Fields? was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Dell for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did, since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better
1:15:06 Jonathan Fields? so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
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