Pod Insights Good Life Project The Relationship Rules Keeping You Stuck (and how to fix them) | Stephanie R. Yates-Anyabwile About this episode What if the secret to a stronger relationship is breaking the "rules" everyone says you should follow?
In this paradigm-shifting conversation, renowned therapist Stephanie Yates-Anyabwile reveals why sleeping apart, living separately, and other unconventional choices might actually deepen your connection. Learn why preventative relationship work matters more than crisis management, how to navigate family resistance to unconventional choices, and why giving your partner "the benefit of the doubt" could transform your relationship.
If you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Julie and John Gottman https://pod.link/goodlifeproject/episode/NjYzYTcxZmJjNTllOTEwMDEzNTM5ZjZi about the science of lasting love and what makes relationships truly thrive.
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Transcript 11,785 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Jonathan Fields? So have you ever wondered what would happen if we completely threw out the relationship rulebook? I mean, not just the small stuff, but literally everything. Picture a world where things like sleeping in a separate bedroom isn't actually a sign of trouble, but of deep respect, where maybe even living apart might bring you closer together, where the very things that we have been taught spell relationship doom could be the secret to lasting love. These possibilities are not just theoretical musings. They represent real choices that couples are making right now, often in secret, afraid of judgment, but finding extraordinary connection through these unconventional paths. And they're exactly what we explore in today's conversation, where we challenge everything you think
0:44 Jonathan Fields? you know about what makes relationships work. My guest today is Stephanie Yates-Anya Brelle, or Stephanie, as she often goes by online. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist, whose insights have been featured in Time, GQ, Vanity Fair, and on the TED stage. With over 17 million views on her YouTube channel, she's bringing fresh perspectives to how we think about relationships, challenging conventional wisdom, and offering practical wisdom for creating stronger connections. One thing that really struck me in this conversation was how often couples struggle, not because they're incompatible, but because they're trying to force themselves into relationship models that simply don't fit who they are. We talk about why some couples thrive living apart, and how to handle family resistance
1:25 Jonathan Fields? to unconventional choices, and also what happens when we start giving our partners the benefit of a doubt, and so much more. And wait until you hear what she has to say about the real reason most communication breaks down between couples. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
1:50 Speaker 01 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.
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3:24 Jonathan Fields? We've been having a lot of fun, starting these conversations off with a quick round of five true or false questions. Ooh. So I'm gonna share five statements and ask you, to the best of your ability, to see if you can stick to a true or false answer for these. And don't worry, we'll unpack them in different ways during the conversation if you want to go deeper. You game? Yeah, let's go. Okay, so, number one. Open relationships are inherently more prone to failure than monogamous ones. Hmm, false. Okay. Two, there are a basic set of relationship rules that make pretty much every relationship work better. False. Living in different homes can sometimes strengthen relationships. True.
4:07 Jonathan Fields? Never fighting is a sign of a healthy relationship. False. And the last one, relationship check-ins are most important when relationships are struggling. I'll say true. So, we're gonna unpack these along the way as we dive into all different aspects of how we relate to other people, how we build relationships, and how sometimes things come up in those relationships that we struggle with, whether it's weeks long, months long, years long, or decades long. I'd love to zoom the lens out a little bit, you know, as we dive in. And I'm curious, without even me focusing you in, do you have a sense for what you see as sort of like the single biggest or most common challenge that couples are struggling with these days?
4:50 Speaker 04 I think the number one thing that every couple comes in and says their challenge is communication. And I think that's definitely correct, but we normally do need to zoom in to what the communication issue is. Let's talk about which topics we're having a hard time discussing. How are we cooling off? Are we respecting when one person needs a little space before we talk? It's usually about understanding what's the issue with communication and also specifically why certain topics or certain environments create a more triggering situation where it's hard for us to talk.
5:25 Jonathan Fields? I'm guessing that that comes up also. You know, people aren't showing up with you and saying, hey, listen, we decided to come in and explore some therapy together because things are going awesome. And we just think we could communicate a little bit better. I'm guessing they probably show up at your doorstep because stuff is going sideways.
5:41 Speaker 04 Well, sometimes, you know, you do have that unicorn, especially for people who are in a premarital phase. That's where I'll see it most often. They're like, hey, neither one of us saw a healthy relationship growing up. We feel like we have a very healthy relationship, but we want to understand some of the pitfalls of marriage. What can we expect? And also, we're willing to dig deep to see if maybe there are some things that we've been ignoring. So every now and then I do get the couple who's actually in a good place. But more often, you have people who come in and say, we really don't have any issues. And, you know, within the first session, we've uncovered all of these issues that they actually are experiencing. And those are usually my couples that are a little bit more conflict avoidant,
6:24 Speaker 04 where nobody really wants to say that they're having a problem. But therapy is now presenting them with an opportunity to be honest and authentic about their experience in their relationship.
6:34 Jonathan Fields? Yeah. So it's like they're feeling it, but nobody really wants to own that there's something real going on here. But maybe there's some voice inside one or both of them that says, maybe we should at least get somebody else's opinion who's not us.
6:46 Speaker 04 Yeah, definitely.
6:48 Jonathan Fields? I'm curious also, even before we dive into that, those unicorn couples that you just described, where, and it sounds like maybe oftentimes they're coming out of a relationship. Prior relationship where it was really hard and they're trying to look to not repeat those same experiences. Why do you think it is that so few people or so few couples invest in almost like preventative or proactive skill building and relationship building and kind of wait until there's a problem before saying this actually matters? We want to spend time really, really investing in it.
7:22 Speaker 04 I think even goes beyond just relationships, even with individual therapy. How many people come to therapy when they're in a good place and they're feeling happy? How many people continue with therapy once they get to a stable place? I think that there is a negative connotation when it comes to getting help in general, you know, and we think that that means we're saying something is wrong with us or something is wrong with our relationship. So a lot of times we wait until that's undeniable before we seek support. But I think that anyone can benefit, even if it's just monthly sessions, quarterly sessions, just from an opportunity to talk with someone who's only perspective or point of view is yours, maybe yours and your partner's.
8:07 Speaker 04 And I think that's just healthy to have a space where you're removed from the real world, you're removed from your typical traditional triggers that you're dealing with in daily life. You have an opportunity to just have this one segmented space. We're talking about how we actually feel and we're trying to keep it safe and healthy as we discuss it.
8:26 Jonathan Fields? I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like a generation ago, there was a lot of stigma around seeking the help of a professional, whether it's individually, just for yourself, or you know, in a partnership, in a couple. Do you feel like that's changed in any meaningful way over the last 10, 20 years? Do you feel like it's still there?
8:43 Speaker 04 Absolutely. I think it's changed a lot. I think that people talk about therapy so much more openly. We talk about mental health a lot more openly, even in books, you know, novels, we're seeing a lot more mental illness representation. And I think that for the first time in a long time, people aren't necessarily as ashamed to be struggling with something with their mental health or even just psychologically. However, I think that there are still communities or aspects of our lives where there that shame does still exist. I know that for a lot of minority communities, for
9:22 Speaker 04 example, that the topic of therapy, mental health support is still very taboo. And it's something that typically has not really been accessible historically to people who are impoverished, right, that or low income. That's not something that has been very easily accessible. And now we have insurance that's recognizing the importance of mental health and supporting people as they need to work on their relationship, work with their family dynamics, work individually. So we're seeing a shift in that. But, you know, even with couples therapy, I think if you tell your friends, hey, we're in couples therapy, they're going to assume that something is wrong. So I think that we do still have
10:04 Speaker 04 that stigma that exists with certain types of therapy, or, you know, within certain communities. But I absolutely think we've made a lot of progress with making the conversation more common.
10:16 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. As you're describing that also, question that popped into my head, I'm so curious what your take is. It feels to me like for certain communities also, there can sometimes be this almost like oppositional or tension between faith and therapy, where it's almost like this is the place that traditionally our family, our local community, our broader community has always turned. And maybe it's whatever faith tradition resonates with you. This is when things are hard, we turn to the, you know, to this community, to these teachings, to this person to help guide us through. And that's where we should be turning. And if you turn there and things still aren't getting better, if you're not feeling better, then something's wrong, like something's
11:01 Jonathan Fields? really wrong with you, or you're not doing the thing hard enough. Like, if you finally feel like you have to go to therapy, then it's almost like you haven't shown up the way that you were supposed to with faith first. I'm curious whether you've seen that. I've had conversations around that before.
11:15 Speaker 04 Absolutely. I think, you know, you have this idea of praying things away. And I think that I know that faith is a major aspect for a lot of people for building hope. And also for giving life meaning. So I don't mean to diminish faith in any way.
11:33 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, of course.
11:33 Speaker 04 Faith and therapy can go hand in hand. You have some people who are trained as Christian counselors, for example. So they've got that educational background where they can talk about the psychology of what's happening, or they have those regular conversations where they can give you the words to articulate the struggles you're experiencing in your family. But they also might be willing to pray with you or check in and hold you accountable on how things are going in your faith. Have you been going to church? Are you, you said you wanted to be a part of this community at your church. Have you made any steps in that direction? So they can absolutely go hand in hand. But I think you're 100% right that for a lot of people, they look at getting
12:16 Speaker 04 mental health support as a way of saying that a person can help you better than a God can, or the spiritual support that you could get from maybe leaders in your church. And I think that isn't the case. And I've been seeing a shift in that as well over the last few years. You know, I have family members now where, you know, five years ago, they like raising, you know, rolling their eyes about therapy, rolling their eyes about me being a therapist. And now they're like, everybody needs to be in therapy. And that just warms my heart. It's like my favorite conversation to have with people is to just see that people can see the benefits of being able to balance both because one does not negate the other.
13:00 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I think it's more of a yes and than an either or, right? Or it's not like you go to one because the other is a failure. It's like, no, they, they often play complimentary, yet differently. They serve you in different ways, I think, is, is kind of what it comes down to.
13:12 Speaker 04 Yeah.
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15:45 Speaker 02 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.
16:18 Jonathan Fields? So let's kind of circle back to this notion of when people show up. And your practice has been focused really on relationships. And not just, you know, like romantic partner relationships, but all different levels, family relationships, friend. And so somebody shows up and we're in a place of conflict. We are not agreeing. I'm curious, are there a fairly common set? Are there like one or two or three sort of like big disagreements that you see showing up just over and over and over in relationships?
16:46 Speaker 04 That show up over and over and over again. I think the number one that I see is you have one partner who wants to talk about issues as they present. And then the other partner needs space so that they can process before they engage in that conversation. I see this all the time where you have the person who needs the space who's like, I know what I'm capable of saying if I don't get the space. Or I know I won't have much to contribute to this conversation if I don't get the time to think through it. Whereas you have the other person who feels abandoned where they're like, hey, I'm feeling a lot of emotional dysregulation and I feel like you're walking away from me. You don't care about what I'm going through. So I think that is probably number one.
17:31 Jonathan Fields? And then also, by the way, that can be wrapped around any sort of like quote issue. You know, like, so it's really, it's like a, it's like a conflict engagement skill.
17:40 Speaker 04 Yep.
17:40 Jonathan Fields? A difference in approach to actually engaging around conflict without even getting to what the actual topic of the conflict is.
17:46 Speaker 04 Exactly. That's why I always say when people come to me and they say they're struggling with communication, that's just like the surface. You know, the communication, I assume if you're not in a good place, that your communication is probably struggling. I can just assume that. Now let's go a little bit beneath that and see what other issues you're having. So we can talk about that. And then we can talk about how do we talk about this? So we don't have to come to therapy in order to work through all of our issues.
18:14 Jonathan Fields? So let's talk about this one difference in sort of like styles, almost like conflict styles. When somebody shows up and you have two people who show up and one's like, I just want to get into it now. And the other one's like, I need time. I need to process this. And how do you help somebody navigate those moments?
18:28 Speaker 04 I'm a huge advocate for if you have one person in the relationship, whether that's, you know, a parent and a kid or siblings, where most of the time it's romantic partners. If you have even one person who needs a little bit of time, give them that time. Because usually that's a person who is saying, if I can get a little bit of space from this, I can be a lot better in our conversation. So either that I'll be less accusatory, I'll be less insecure, I'll be more vocal, more open. And so I'm always big on that. But the compromise there is you can't just walk away.
19:07 Speaker 04 You do have to work on communicating why you're walking away and when your partner can expect you to come back and talk about this, right? And so I usually say, in the moments where you're really frustrated and you have a tendency to draw into yourself and really become silent, challenge yourself to say, either you guys have a safe word, where it's like pineapple. And that's my way of saying, I love you.
19:33 Jonathan Fields? I need a minute.
19:34 Speaker 04 I need a minute. I'm coming back. But even better is if you can just, just yell out the amount of time that you're gonna need. Give me 20. Give me 30. I need an hour. Which can be very hard for the person who wants to talk about it right now. But you have to ask yourself, is it more important in this moment for me to win this argument? Or is it more important for me to have a productive conversation with my partner? So that at the end, we both win. And so I always say that if you walk away and you've learned nothing new about your partner's perspective, you've both lost. So trying to look at the problem as the problem, externalize it from your relationship is important. And sometimes we do need a little bit of space in order to do that.
20:18 Speaker 04 Because in the moment, you feel like my problem. The problem's not the problem, you are. And so this helps to make them, help them compartmentalize it a bit.
20:27 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I love that idea also of coming to an agreement before any conflict says and almost like talking about, hey, like, what's your patterning? What's your style around disagreement? So we kind of know in advance and having that signal or that safe word. I like, I kind of love the idea of making it a really goofy word also. So it injects like just a little bit of lightness into the moment. But also because especially if the person who wants to just have the conversation now also has experienced deep trauma around abandonment, which so many people have in so many, in so many different ways when they were younger. If you don't have this agreement, I would imagine you see like they would perceive the other person as abandoning them.
21:06 Speaker 04 Absolutely.
21:06 Jonathan Fields? So they're not even reacting to the other person in the moment. They're reacting to this like potentially ages old wound. Does that show up a lot?
21:12 Speaker 04 Absolutely. Even further, they're not even any longer responding to whatever the source of the conflict was, the original source. Now we're frustrated about what's happening in this moment and now that's magnifying whatever the problem was before. And that's the other reason that taking that space is critical if you have even one person who needs that because what I see is that by the time they get to me, they don't even remember what the original argument was about. It takes a second or like, what were we arguing about? Because now it's become so much bigger than the argument. And so recognizing I have a tendency to want to dive in. My partner has a tendency to need a break so that we can talk.
21:52 Speaker 04 It's also a trust building exercise because you learn to trust that your partner actually is going to come back to finish this conversation with you. And that's what I tell my couples when you have that person. I'm like, okay, listen, in this moment, you're getting your way, right? You're the person who wants the pause, the break. They are trying to give you that even though they're dealing with a lot of uncomfortable emotions and providing you with that. Now make sure you hold up your end of the deal and actually use that break to reflect and come back and have and engage in this conversation. I usually tell my partners who need the break. One way to really communicate to your partner that you care about whatever's happening
22:33 Speaker 04 is to write down your thoughts. So you can say, I use that time to really think through what we should talk about. And I don't want to just go off the top of my head because this relationship is too important to me. Everything should come back to intention. Everything should come back to, how can I let my partner know that they matter so much to me that I don't want to mess this up by speaking before I'm ready. And making that clear, I think can avoid some of those feelings of abandonment.
23:01 Jonathan Fields? I wonder if you see also, if let's say, you know, the person who wants to just have it out now, if part of their fear is almost like, everything that I'm feeling now is top of mind right now. But if I wait an hour or a day, I'm gonna, it's kind of, kind of get watered down or forget a whole bunch of stuff. And, and I want to, like, it's fresh in my mind now, so I want to have the conversation now. So maybe it's a good exercise for that person to also write it down. And then feel like, I can actually come back to this in a few hours. I can take a quick look at what I wrote down. It'll be fresh in my mind. So they don't forget anything that's really important to me in the conversation.
23:36 Speaker 04 Absolutely. Because a lot of times what we're doing is, we're venting. And so I feel all this steam, I want to pour it out while I'm still feeling it. And I do challenge my, the partner that usually wants to talk about it right now. And I do hear that sometimes, they're like, well, if we come back in an hour, I'm going to forget everything that I need to say. I say, and that, doesn't that beg the question about how important it was?
23:59 Jonathan Fields? Right.
24:00 Speaker 04 If you don't remember in an hour, what you were about to like curse your partner out about, how significant was that issue? If in an hour, it's not as important, again, we've both won. Now we're in a position where we have one less thing that we're yelling about. To me, that's not a problem, right? Again, that's you being focused on wanting to win an argument. And you've got all these points. But if you get rid of that thought that this is my goal to win this argument, and you think instead, my goal is for us both to walk away and understand more about each other's perspectives, that totally changes your strategy. Because if I'm yelling at you while you're not ready to talk to me, we've both lost.
24:42 Jonathan Fields? I wanted to dip a little bit more into that, what you just said, I think is really important. I want to explore it more, this notion of like wanting to win the argument, right? Because on the one hand, you zoom the lens out, we're like, well, that can't be all that constructive. Like, this is not a battle we're engaged in. Like, we're trying to create a healthy, functional, loving, compatible relationship. And yet, we're gonna have so many folks show up in a relationship. We all bring our baggage, we all bring our experiences and our patterning, right? Some of us are gonna show up having so much of our lives where we feel disempowered. We feel like we don't have power, we don't have agency, we don't have autonomy. And we're just trying to get it anywhere we can. And we show up in those relationships.
25:23 Jonathan Fields? I wonder if we show up in part wanting to win because it's a way for us to feel like, okay, we got what we needed, we have agency. On the one hand, I get how that can be important, but on the other hand, it's a really fine line between wanting to win and feeling like you're reclaiming or maintaining agency in a healthy and constructive way, right?
25:45 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think it boils down sometimes to power. In this world that we're in, especially in the Western societies where we really do promote individualism, it's easy to try to attain as much power as you can. And some people are able to attain power through their looks. Some people are able to attain power through their talent. Some people are able to attain power through their words, through their intellect, quick wit. And these are the people I typically find that like to jump right into the argument because they feel like this is where they shine, this is where they can thrive is by, you know, I have been able to quickly assess the situation and I'm gonna tell you everything that you're doing wrong.
26:29 Speaker 04 And in a way, it's like acing a paper because I just came up with 10 reasons why you're wrong. And then we hit them with the, give me one example of when I did that. And they don't have anything because they weren't prepared for the conversation. So it gives us a sense of power, but If what you're really wanting is to have a healthy relationship, a long-term, longstanding relationship, then you have the power in that moment, but your partner now has lost a little bit of safety in your relationship. And ultimately, you're losing because what you wanted, that long-term goal, right? The war that we're fighting for, you know, you won the battle, you're losing the war because now it's that much harder for your partner to open up to you and trust
27:13 Speaker 04 that you don't have the intention of hurting them.
27:16 Jonathan Fields? I feel like power is always going to matter to us in some way. We want to feel like we have agency in our lives, but what we're looking for in a relationship is less power over and more power with, like, we want to share this. We want to feel like we each have a sense of agency and power in the relationship and that there's equity, there's equality there.
27:32 Speaker 04 I definitely think, you know, we're always going to want power. That's what makes us feel autonomous and over our own lives and also makes us feel like we have more influence over our relationships as well. But romantic partnerships are a fine balance because whereas, yes, I want to have autonomy over my own life, I am entering into something where I do need to consider another person's desires, wants, feelings as well. And so it can be challenging to give up some of that power and acknowledge and respect another person's power so that both people can feel content in the relationship. I don't know if we can always both be happy at the same time. There are definitely moments where both people can be happy in a relationship, but
28:16 Speaker 04 there are going to be times where one person might be thriving a little bit more than the other, but we don't want the relationship to be the source of the stress.
28:25 Jonathan Fields? That makes a lot of sense. So we've talked about a couple of, let's call them guidelines for healthy conflict. Okay, so we have a disagreement, but here are some things to really think about. Are there one or two or three other sort of like general guidelines? Like, this is how we step into a disagreement in a way that makes it constructive rather than destructive?
28:46 Speaker 04 The first thing, and this is very hard, but the first thing I always try to work with my clients on is meta-communication. So let's focus on how we're talking about what we're talking about. And let's also talk about how we're feeling before we even talk about what we're talking about. And it's very hard because it's a very roundabout way of communicating. It's really slow and we're not getting to the point quick enough or as quickly as we're used to. But if I enter a conversation with you and I say, "I'm very nervous to have this conversation." So many times we just jump right in and our partner has no clue that this is vulnerable for us because we didn't make that clear.
29:25 Speaker 04 Or if you say, "Okay, just so you know, this is taking me back to some of the conflict that I experienced with my mom growing up. And I want to be able to handle this right, but just know like I might get a bit triggered as we're talking about this." Okay, that's us talking about how we're feeling as we're talking. And then when we talk about how we're talking, I might say, "I know I'm speaking a little loudly. I'm very passionate about this. I'm not yelling at you. I just, I'm trying to get this out and this is the volume that it's coming out at." Right? It's so hard sometimes to just talk about why we're talking about what we're talking, the emotions we're coming into the conversation with, the tone that we're inherently using. Those things can really, really help.
30:09 Speaker 04 I also, when you have control over it, I like us to think about the setting. Like, should I be having a really deep, personal conversation or conflict with my partner in like a crowded restaurant? Probably not. Why? Because if it gets to a point where I'm being very vulnerable and I'm sharing something and I need to pull in, my partner's like, "Huh? What'd you say?" That might trigger me. I might feel like, "You don't even care. You're not listening. You're not comforting me." But they're like, "Oh, you know, we're in public. I don't really know what to do." So, simple things like that can also help a conversation. But I also think that the thing I work with my clients about a lot is like giving your partner the benefit of the doubt.
30:53 Speaker 04 We so often fill in the blanks for why somebody is doing something, right? Like in that first example, our partner walks away from the conversation. We're like, "You're abandoning me." Let's pull it back a little bit. Historically, has that been the case in this relationship? If so, that's a whole different thing we need to be talking about. But most of the time, it's like, You know, they want to be with you. You know that they love you. You know, they wouldn't purposely leave the coffee maker on. You know that they are not doing that intentionally. So why are we yelling? Why are we screaming? Why are we going down a laundry list of everything that they do wrong? When if we gave them the benefit of the doubt, we just think that was an annoying accident, but I make mistakes too. Right? So these are some of the things that I try to encourage
31:37 Speaker 04 my clients to think about, especially if you're in a season of your relationship that's conflict ridden. It's just, you know, let's be very cautious about how we're engaging in our conversation. Be very slow and intentional in the communication that we're having.
31:53 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I mean, those things all make so much sense. You're describing that I'm literally like a scenario pops into my head where, you know, one person's really upset about something. They're home, they're waiting for the conversation to happen. And it's the evening, the other person walks in the door. They've had a brutally hard day at work. They're stressed out of their minds. They see that their, their partner is sitting on, you know, at the kitchen table and like something's wrong. They want to have a conversation, but that other person just feels like they're completely unresourced to have this conversation right now. You know, and they're like, listen, all they want to do is go and work out so they can kind of refill their tank. Right? Because that for them, that's how they juice back up. That's how they get calm again. That's how they have more of the energy. If you don't communicate, like if one person just says, look, I'm out. I
32:37 Jonathan Fields? gotta go work out. The person who wants a conversation, they're going to be like feeling they don't care. They're abandoning me. They'd rather go to do the thing that makes them feel good than actually have a conversation. But if you actually communicate and say, you know, listen, I see some things on your mind. I know it must be really important. I want to honor that and have this conversation with you. And I want to do it in a way where I felt like I'm really unresourced that I can sit and listen and we can, we can have a real conversation. And I've just had a really brutal day. It would be so helpful if I could just take a little bit of time to go and do this thing to work out. So I can come back and I will in an hour and we can sit down and have this from a better place. Is that the type of thing that you're talking about here?
33:16 Speaker 04 Exactly. I think you just synthesized everything. Because that's the other thing I tell my clients as well, just like we're talking about not being in loud environments. For example, I always say, let's check in on the basics, right? Like Maslow's hierarchy. Am I fed? Am I well rested?
33:34 Jonathan Fields? Because those things all affect you.
33:35 Speaker 04 It all affects you. Like, if I'm hungry, the conversation could go totally left. And I have to come back and be like, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that I didn't even realize personally that I deal with anger until I got into the relationship with my now husband. And he was kind of like, yeah, I kind of noticed like, whenever we haven't eaten for a while, like, it gets really short. And then we can plan around that, right? Now, I always keep snacks in my car. If we're gonna go somewhere, like even if we're driving to a reservation, I make sure I have snacks in my purse. Just in case, you know, if it's a long drive, I don't want to get snappy if we deal with traffic, whatever the case may be. If we really tune into those things, we can also plan around them, you know?
34:17 Speaker 04 So if you know also on the other partner's side, if you know your partner's just had a long day and they're coming in, check in with them and say, hey, I wanted to talk with you about something, but I want to see, how was your day first? This might be a little annoying, to be honest with you. So I don't want you to be in a bad place if I'm bringing it up. Then that makes it easier for you to go in and say, actually, yeah, thanks for checking in. This is a really, this has been a hard day. Do you mind if I go to the gym before we talk about it? So that's why I say it goes both ways, you know? Sometimes my couples come in, they're like, well, they never told me they were in a bad mood. And then the other person's like, well, you never asked me how my day was.
34:56 Speaker 04 And it's like, see, we're trying to, always trying to volunteer our partner to initiate the healthy conversation. And I say, we cannot control what our partner does, but we can work on what we're going to do to help better our relationship. It's not 50/50, it's 100/100. So you just ask yourself, am I doing what I can to make my partner's life easier? And since there's only two people in this relationship, then if one of you is trying to be better, then more than likely, the relationship is going to improve. Or the drastic differences in how, you know, you're treating your partner versus how they're treating you, it's going to be exposed. And if they don't care, you know what to do with that information. You can't control what they're doing. You can only focus on what you're bringing to the relationship.
35:39 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, that all makes so much sense. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall, that cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scars. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table has been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts, and more. Get a head start on your end of year purchases.
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37:49 Speaker 02 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.
38:22 Jonathan Fields? I feel like this is a good moment also to maybe widen our aperture a little bit. We've been talking about some of the rules and guidelines around, really around disagreement, around conflict. And, but more broadly, you know, like there, there are, there tend to be like this set of passed down rules of like, this is how you are in a relationship that are either, you know, passed down from the family or passed down from the culture or the community. Like, these are the basic rules, the 10 commandments of all relationships. Follow them and your, your relationship will be golden. You're somebody who's spoken very, very powerfully against that.
38:53 Speaker 04 I think that when we limit ourselves in our relationships, and it's so funny because most of the time people want like wacky, crazy examples, but it's usually the most mundane changes that are really so insignificant that can make a huge difference in our relational experiences. Because we are formatting our relationships based off of what we've seen, what we've heard, what we've imagined. We're not always paying attention to what's actually happening in the relationship that I'm actually in. The person I actually ended up with, what do they like? What do I like? Where do we differ? Where are we the same? And how can we build a life around that?
39:33 Speaker 04 We don't, we're not introspective enough, I find, to be creative in how we approach our relationships.
39:40 Jonathan Fields? There's like a top three shoulds that you see in relationships. Like people are like, oh, this, we should be doing this. We should be behaving this way. This should be the rules in our relationship because that's what everyone says makes for a healthy relationship. And you look at that and you're like, well, for some people, sure, but for you, maybe not?
39:57 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think, you know, some of the ones that come up the most in my work and some of the things I talked about in my TED Talk or even sharing the same bed. There's a lot of controversy around couples who sleep in separate beds. People call it a sleep divorce, which I really don't even like that phrasing, but people are quite judgmental about that. I know there have been couples who've talked about it online and people are like, oh, that's one step away from splitsville or my parents did that when they were separated, you know, and people can't see past their own experiences. Another one is even just like living together full time. You know, sometimes it doesn't make sense. Sometimes you have couples who they're getting together at a different stage in life where
40:42 Speaker 04 living together 24/7 just doesn't make sense with the lifestyles they've already built apart and their relationship functions really well when they're not expected to completely integrate their lives into living with one another. I think another one might be like even like sharing a room. You know, with the bed thing, you can, I've had some couples who are comfortable with having maybe two separate beds in the same room, kind of like what you saw in I Love Lucy growing up, right?
41:13 Jonathan Fields? Right.
41:13 Speaker 04 But the idea of sleeping in separate rooms is very embarrassing to them. They don't even want their kids to see that. Whereas, you know, it's kind of like, but one of you likes one temperature, the other one likes a different temperature, one of you is a morning person, the other person is a night owl, and you're making so many compromises that you're building resentment for simple things that really, you know, they really have no bearing in the relationship. They're, they're just things that. Any roommates would have to deal with if we were in college sharing a dorm, we'd be having these same stressors, but we can make it work.
41:44 Jonathan Fields? I mean, that makes so much sense to me. And yet there is so much baggage around it. You know, this is where it's supposed to be. I mean, maybe one person is just a really loud snorer and the other person isn't. And that can be wildly disruptive to your sleep.
41:56 Speaker 04 Absolutely.
41:57 Jonathan Fields? Relationships go off the rails just because of sleep deprivation. I mean, that can be bad alone. So it's like, okay, so maybe we have to give up that sort of, you know, traditional model of us being in the same room. And, you know, now we get the sleep that we need and everything's better. Or maybe one person's a night owl and one person's like a morning person. But I mean, that's interesting, right? Because let's say one person really, their internal clocks are like, I get up later and I like to stay up until 3 a.m. And the other person's like, I like, my clock says go to bed at nine o'clock at night and I'm going to be up at 4 a.m.
42:29 Speaker 04 Yeah.
42:29 Jonathan Fields? And that's kind of like a biological thing that's not the easiest to reset. I wonder if you see conflict around that at all ever?
42:37 Speaker 04 Absolutely, all the time. And that's where a lot, and I think that specific issue is where I really started seeing how many people were struggling to make what I would consider to be relatively simple decisions like sleeping apart. Like you guys love each other. You love doing life together. You're raising a family successfully. This is the thing you keep coming back to and neither one of you is really willing to compromise because sleep is so important to both of you. And one is like, you know, I make my money when I'm able to work. I'm not, I can't work in the morning. I work late into the night, you know, especially when I have creatives. A lot of my clients where they're creatives,
43:20 Speaker 04 they just, a lot of them just function a lot better at night. They can work until 3, 4 a.m. And that's when they really get going, when nobody in the world is trying to reach them. Once you're able, when I say what are the things that attracted you to each other? A lot of them are those opposites, you know, like I love how creative they are, or I love how organized and structured they are. And it's like, these are the very things that are causing you to, to lead what feels like very separate lives or have separate wants or lifestyles. But it didn't prevent you from dating. You were able to still figure it out when you were dating and this was your routine then. The only difference is you weren't forced to live together and change that dynamic. So you are living together.
44:05 Speaker 04 It's working out well during the daytime. There's only this one facet of your life that you're struggling with. How hard would it be for you to just sleep separately? That was really the primary issue that was coming into my sessions where I realized, you know, a lot of people don't even think about just doing things a little bit differently than how they saw their parents do it.
44:24 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, it's like, this is just what's always been done around us. This is what we see on TV all the time, you know, or now online TikTok and Instagram. Like, this is the way it is. And we don't really question it. That makes a lot of sense to me. One of my true false questions in the beginning also was about monogamous versus open relationships. I would imagine this is one of the things also, like there's this very traditional family norm and this is how it works. And you're like, once you quote tie the knot or you're like, you're making, you're in a committed partnership that like, there's really only one way to do that. And that is two people monogamous to each other. But we're seeing more and more people just choosing variations, just defining the ways that feel right to them.
45:06 Jonathan Fields? I wonder if this is a topic that comes up in your practice also on any meaningful basis?
45:11 Speaker 04 Yeah, it definitely comes up, especially for some of my couples who are honest about being in a place where they're considering stepping outside of the relationship. And I feel like if those are thoughts that you're having, the fact that you're comfortable talking with your partner about them is actually a great sign. Of health in the relationship. And I know everybody doesn't see it that way, but it is because for a lot of people, I'm not saying everyone, but for a lot of people, it's more the deception that destroys the relationship than it is the fact that a person was having thoughts or desires for another person. And I've seen many times in sessions where one person opens up about that and the other person is like, I'm so glad
45:55 Speaker 04 you said that because I've been having X, Y, Z thoughts, feelings, whatever. It doesn't happen all the time. And I think that we have this idea of like, open relationships are the only way to break tradition with relationships. You know, almost whenever people see my talk, one of the top questions I get is like, you know, is this about open relationships? And so it's not only about open relationships, but that is an example of a rule that has been something that society has told us is, you know, monogamy is what a healthy relationship looks like. And you can be in a monogamous relationship and be sexually open. You know,
46:36 Speaker 04 there are different things that people might pursue that makes sense for their values. We base a lot of our choices off of what other people are doing, or more specifically, what we think other people will think of us if they knew we were making choices that were different from the societal expectation. And so I think your question at the beginning was, open relationships, do they have a higher propensity for failure? I don't have the statistics on that, but my gut reaction is no, just based off of my own clinical work. And for the couples who have made that decision, I don't see their relationship being more likely to fall into jeopardy than a couple who's chosen to be monogamous.
47:19 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I mean, it sounds like the way you're describing it, it's more about the way you have the conversation around it and the way that you The openness that you, not the openness in terms of other people, but the openness you have with each other around what your needs and wants and desires are and, and how to navigate that, like how to negotiate it in a way so that you both feel like you're getting like the respect, the dignity, and also the freedom that makes you feel like you can show up and be the person you want to be. And that's going to be different for everybody, right? But again, so often we're just told this is the way it is. I mean, what's interesting also, you use the word society, like, like, these ideas are often dictated by society and these norms also, they're very, like, if we talk about this in a Western,
48:01 Jonathan Fields? sort of like, North American standard, very often, other cultures and other communities and other countries, they have a very different lens on, on like, what is sort of like, just acceptable and standard, like, this is just how relationships are, you know? So it's very, we tend to be very sort of like, compartmentalized into like, whatever the local culture tells us, right? And believe the whole world is like that. But in fact, when you start to look at customs around the world, oftentimes they're really different.
48:26 Speaker 04 Yeah. And culturally, we shift, right? Because I think, actually, when you think about it, I think nowadays, it might actually be, in certain communities, more taboo to be in a traditional setup with a relationship where you have, you know, the wife who's like a stay-at-home, and, you know, she's preparing the meals, and you have a husband who's a provider. That is something I think that a lot of people are very uncomfortable with today. And so, I see online all of the time where you have people who are like, my day in the life as a stay-at-home mom, and the comments are filled with people being like,
49:08 Speaker 04 okay, what happens if he cheats on you? What happens if he leaves you? You have nothing, you know, they don't even know what their financial setup looks like or anything. But the whole point is making decisions based off what feels good for you and your partner, and really quieting or silencing the noise, not allowing it to dictate, like, okay, well, these people online are saying that- My life is in jeopardy, so I should probably get a job. If that doesn't make sense for you and your family, it doesn't make sense, right? So there are so many different ways. And I think we're at a point now where even the traditional setup or trajectory, in some ways, that is almost going against culture.
49:49 Speaker 04 It's counterculture almost because we're in a very, depending on what community you're in, that could be frowned upon as well.
49:55 Jonathan Fields? This also brings up another curiosity, which is, let's say you decide to make some, a decision about your relationship, like you have two people, three people, however many people in the relationship, right? And you have the conversation, you float your needs and your desires, you come to really an agreement where you've like, each person feels good about this and you want to move forward with it. But that is not sort of like the acceptable norm within, let's see even like your broader family unit. Then you're going to have people within the family unit, if you decide to share it with them, you know, which is, and if this, you know, if this becomes a really meaningful part of your life and you want to be able to live, and eventually, very likely, even if you
50:38 Jonathan Fields? don't overtly decide, I'm going to share it, it will become an observable thing.
50:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
50:42 Jonathan Fields? Right? And then you're going to have people wanting to sort of like, have their say in your decisions and your relationship choices and kind of say like, I have a right to have like a say in what's going on here, which brings up the issue of boundaries. I would imagine you see this happening too.
50:59 Speaker 04 Absolutely. And when I talk about societal expectations, I think for the most part, we're really talking about familial expectations. And this is why I say it boils down to your values. If you, for example, feel like I have to choose between being a part of my family or being in this relationship that makes me feel fulfilled, you know, unfortunately, sometimes we have to ask ourselves, which value is more important to me? Is it more important to me to feel like I'm a part of my family? Or is it more important to me to feel like I have autonomy over my own life and maybe build my own family or have found family? There are unfortunately very tough conversations that we have to have with ourself
51:43 Speaker 04 at times when we are making decisions that are counterculture. Because what is the risk of being counterculture? We can't ignore that. It's rejection. It's that feeling of isolation, not being able to have a feeling of community because the decisions we're making are so different from the decisions of the people around us. And so that's a very real possibility and I don't want to ignore that because it's so easy to just say, do whatever feels good to you. But a lot of times we do have to deal with consequences and it's a question of what aspect of your life is the most important to you.
52:18 Jonathan Fields? Let's say we're talking about family here and you make a choice about your relationship and close family members don't agree with that choice and they want to say their piece. They want to have a say in your decision and your life. And these aren't family members, let's say it's a parent, right? And you're close to your parent and they just don't get it. They don't get why you're doing what you're doing. And you have a good relationship with them other than that. So you don't want to just write them off. Like you'll sometimes hear this advice, well, you need to just get them out of your life if they don't agree with like what you do. Most of the time, that's not realistic. And that's not what you want. You want them in your life. Do you have any advice on how you might start that conversation with them? Or some just general ideas to maybe help increase the chances of you coming to a place
53:03 Jonathan Fields? where you're both, like even if you don't agree, you can kind of both find a way to be a little more at peace and stay in each other's lives?
53:12 Speaker 04 Yeah, I was actually just having a conversation like this today with one of my clients. In their situation, they and their partner had to move and they, you know, they had the choice of either staying where their family was or moving and they chose to move. And their family's dealing with some really serious stuff that where they could use their help, right? So they're feeling like, you know, I feel like a bad person. I'm not being supportive, I'm not being helpful. And there are some repercussions of that with the family dynamics. And I think that there are sometimes a lot of value in just allowing people to feel the way that they feel, because that's what we're asking for as well.
53:54 Speaker 04 Like, okay, you don't agree with my decisions regarding my relationship. I can accept that. Can we still manage a relationship outside of that? Is the type of relationship I'm in, or the state that I'm living in, is that more important to you than it is to maintain and work on our relationship outside of that? Because most of the time, it has absolutely zero bearing on that family. Even if they personalize it and they make it seem, you know, well, what about my grandkids? And that's fair, because what they're saying is, I had a vision for my future. It included you. It included you being in this kind of relationship. It included you starting this sort of family.
54:37 Speaker 04 And now I'm having to mourn the loss of that vision. I think that's important, too. And I think that we can make space for that and separate it from our own experience. I can hold space for a parent who is grieving their new reality as a result of my decisions and still not change them. I can say, I love you. I hate how you feel about choices I'm making for my life, but you raised a strong, independent thinker, and this is the decision I'm making. But I still want to pour into our relationship if you're willing to accept me, and I will accept you. That is what I envision. Now, sometimes, you know, we just can't get to that point, but at least we can know we tried.
55:21 Speaker 04 We tried to have the conversation. We chose to keep that door open until it gets to a point where it's no longer emotionally safe for us. Or if we feel like our family just, you know, the family we've created can't thrive within the family that we were born into, then you might have to make some hard decisions. But I think you're right. Initially, we might want to hold on to both, and I think it's possible if we can just accept, okay, I can't convince you to be okay with this. I can accept that you're not okay with it. Can you still accept me into your life?
55:51 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, and what you just brought up about understanding that part of what their resistance often is, it's not going to be a direct judgment of you. It's a grieving of the loss of the life or the nature of the relationship, the way things were that they thought would always be.
56:06 Speaker 04 Yeah.
56:07 Jonathan Fields? And what they're expressing is in no small part grief. But they might not have the language or the emotional reservoir to express it as grief or sadness or loss. So it may come out as judgment or anger.
56:19 Speaker 04 Yep.
56:19 Jonathan Fields? But maybe if we can see that and then see past it or see, see underneath and be like, I understand what's really happening here and maybe without losing any of my power standing in what is my truth, see if we can give them a little bit grace in that moment also, and maybe give them a little space to come around to it.
56:37 Speaker 04 Yeah.
56:37 Jonathan Fields? That feels so important and it's not something I feel like we talk about often in those moments.
56:42 Speaker 04 Especially, let's talk about, one of the things I talk about with some of my clients is, you know, being in a same-sex relationship and having parents, maybe it's been 10, 15 years and their parents are still not welcoming, you know, and they're seeing these stories of other people whose families came around or who were, you know, accepting from the beginning. And they hold a lot of resentment for that, you know, and a lot of times they can understand where their family is coming from. They get that grief, but it still hurts. And I think also just accepting our own pain and grief too. This was not what I wanted for myself either. You're grieving and so am I.
57:25 Speaker 04 I think sometimes there's this expectation that whoever you're talking to has to be the bigger person. I always say, do as much work as you're willing to do. If you get to a point where you're working so much on these dynamics with your family that your work is getting impacted or your marriage is now impacted, you guys are fighting all the time because you're trying to make things work with your family, those are indications that we've reached our limit for right now. Maybe there'll be a time where you have more emotional bandwidth to go back. But if you're at a point where you are constantly sad or anxious because of what's happening with your family, that's a time where maybe you have to take a break, focus on this thing that you sacrificed that relationship for, let that fuel you, fill you up a little
58:09 Speaker 04 bit, and then come back to it if you want.
58:11 Jonathan Fields? It's not just about giving other people grace, it's about giving that same grace, self-compassion.
58:16 Speaker 04 Absolutely.
58:17 Jonathan Fields? To ourselves along the way, and probably just doing the dance and knowing that this is not a snapshot that just stays static. This is just, this is the movie of our lives and we're going to be constantly navigating these, these different dynamics and energies. And the more skills we have, the better.
58:32 Speaker 04 Yeah.
58:32 Jonathan Fields? It feels a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase, "To live a good life," what comes up?
58:40 Speaker 04 To live a good life, we have to be willing to foster not only the relationships with the people that we love, but also foster that important relationship with ourself.
58:53 Jonathan Fields? Hmm. Thank you. Hey, if you loved this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Julie and John Gottman about the science of lasting love and what makes relationships truly thrive. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here, do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with
59:37 Jonathan Fields? just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
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Previous What Your Body is Secretly Telling You: A Guide to Wearable Tech | Future of Medicine [Ep. 5] Next Hope, Not Fear: New Conversations on Cancer Breakthroughs | Future of Medicine [Ep. 6] Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated