Sleep Doesn't Have to Get Worse With Age | Dr. Rebecca Robbins

Every night, while you're asleep, your brain runs a cleaning cycle that clears out the kind of toxic buildup linked to Alzheimer's and dementia. And, with age, most of us sleep less. We are shortchanging the benefits without ever realizing how much control we actually have over sleeping longer, and better. Dr. Rebecca Robbins is an Assistant Professor in Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School and an Associate Sleep Scientist at Brigham and Women's Hospital, where her research spans sleep's relationship to cognitive function, cardiometabolic health, and long-term brain health. She's published more than 100 peer-reviewed studies, co-authored Sleep for Success! https://amzn.to/4f7bIWz, and her work is exactly the kind of research most of us never hear about until someone frames it the way she does here. In this conversation, you'll explore: Why sleep really does shift around age 38 to 40, and what that shift does and doesn't mean for youThe neuroscience discovery of the brain's overnight "wash cycle," and what Dr. Robbins's own eight-year study found about sleep complaints and dementia riskWhy jumping your bedtime back an hour almost never works, and the fifteen-minute method that doesThe at-home test Jonathan didn't realize he'd already run on himselfThe "sleep divorce" reframe one of Dr. Robbins's patients calls a "sleep marriage," and what it means for couples If you've quietly decided your sleep is just what it is at this stage of life, this conversation will change what you think is actually possible tonight. You can find Rebecca at: Website https://www.rebecca-robbins.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drrebeccarobbins | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/sleep-dementia-circadian-rebecca-robbins Next week, we're sitting down with Tommy Wood to talk about what the research actually shows about keeping your brain sharp across decades, including which levers matter most, what's mostly noise, and what you can realistically start tomorrow, whether you're 45 or 65. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don’t miss any upcoming episodes! Midlife Design Lab: I'm opening up an intimate retreat with me and a small, curated group in Boulder, CO (Oct 24-25, 2026), followed by 3 months of virtual group coaching. A few weeks back, I shared something I'd been building for myself, and the response blew me away, so spots are limited and I expect them to fill fast. If this calls to you, apply here https://jonathanfields.substack.com/p/midlife-design-lab-update-and-invitation?open=false#%C2%A7midlife-design-lab-immersion. Check out our sponsors and resources: Visit Our Sponsor Page https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So there's a story that many of us absorb in our 30s, 40s, beyond. Sleep gets worse from here, so the best you can do is just kind of manage the decline. My guest, a Harvard sleep scientist who studies this, says that story is only half right. And believing the wrong half is costing people more than just groggy mornings. It may cost you your health, your relationships, and even your ability to help stave off cognitive decline or dementia as you age. What happens in your brain while you sleep may be one of the biggest levers that you have for the next several decades of health and life. In this conversation, you'll discover why sleep really shifts around the ages of 38 to 40, and what that means for you and what you can do about it.

• 0:43Jonathan Fields?

  We'll talk about the overnight brain processes tied to her research on cognitive decline and dementia risk. And we'll explore why jumping your bedtime back an hour, which so many people do, hey, I'm just going to go to bed an hour earlier. It rarely works. And sometimes it even is harmful. And then we'll explore the small move that does work. We'll talk about the at-home test you may have already run on yourself and why she tells some couples that separate rooms may actually save and not end a relationship when you sleep. Our guide is one of the country's leading sleep scientists, Dr. Rebecca Robbins. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. And we'll jump in right after the break.

• 1:31Speaker 01

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• 2:35Jonathan Fields?

  This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen. When we think about sleep, we've heard so many things about what sleep does to us, the benefits that it has, you know, in terms of mood, cognitive function, immune system, all these different things that affect in a really positive way. One of the things, especially I think when people get a little bit further into their

• 3:20Jonathan Fields?

  lives, that you start to hear about is this idea that sleep is really important in clearing your brain. And when people are thinking about moving into the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, Alzheimer's, different forms of dementia start to present themselves. What is the relationship here around sleep and brain health and risk for these conditions?

• 3:44Speaker 06

  This is a great question and perhaps the most exciting area of sleep medicine. About just over 10 years ago, there was a really exciting discovery. In animal models, neuroscientists found that when they injected the brains of mice with a certain fluid that illuminated something called cerebral spinal fluid, they found when the rodents were sleeping, this fluid was washing through the brain 60% faster than when the rodents were awake. So with that movement of this fluid, think of cerebral spinal fluid as Drano. It removes toxic particles from the brain. Now, toxic particles are a byproduct of us talking right now, of learning, of meeting

• 4:26Speaker 06

  people, of exposing yourself to, you know, different environments, of just going outside, everything we do. So then the question becomes, how do we remove those toxic particles? Because they are seen in greater kind of prevalence in patients who have neurocognitive decline, Alzheimer's disease, or related dementia. And we know that the body removes toxic particles through the lymphatic tissue and vessel, but there are no lymphatic tissue or vessel in the brain. So this seminal discovery offered to the field the realization that it's during sleep that this clearance of neural toxins takes place. And it's through the glial cells in the brain, the cell linings expand, allowing for greater

• 5:06Speaker 06

  flow of cerebral spinal fluid, removal of neural toxins, and lower risk in the longer term, potentially for Alzheimer's disease and dementia. Then in our lab, we tested this in humans. So we looked at patients for whom we had sleep data and cognitive decline information over the course of eight years. And we found that patients with consistent sleep complaints over time were at greater risk for cognitive decline than those without sleep complaints. And those that were getting insufficient sleep were also likely likewise at greater risk for Alzheimer's disease and dementia when compared to that healthy duration of seven to nine hours, to the tune of a 40% greater risk in each case.

• 5:50Speaker 06

  So the good news is that our research does show that when a patient is motivated, they can get the tools they need to kind of right the ship. And so if you're struggling, I would encourage you, do not get stressed by those data. Get it, you know, feel empowered and think about, you know, what can I do? And we're all different. So if it's working with your bedtime ritual, if it's tweaking your bedtimes, think about ways that you can move each night, maybe it take two weeks, you know, how can I inch myself towards better sleep? And one thing, in addition to, we talked about all the constellation of healthy sleep strategies, one technique, when you do wake up and you're in the middle of the night and you're like, oh, not again, I'm awake.

• 6:35Speaker 06

  Again, if you're experiencing this in a chronic fashion, it might be time to speak to a doctor. But just a couple of words, because this complaint is common. So what you do in that case is come back to those tools that get you to fall asleep. And if you're up and you have to use the bathroom, go about that, try not to look at the clock, and then come back to bed. And this is where I think mindset really matters. Just say, you know, oh, I'm up, but no big deal, gonna go back to bed. And then get back into bed. Maybe do a breathing exercise or do that breathing exercise crisscross sitting on the floor and then get into bed. But whatever those steps are that get you to sleep, those are your tools that you can come back to when you're up and struggling to fall back asleep. So those are just a couple of examples, but really kind of workshopping your sleep.

• 7:20Speaker 06

  There's so much data to show that when we focus on these behavioral strategies, we can make huge improvements to people's sleep.

• 7:27Jonathan Fields?

  There's a story that so many of us have absorbed in the middle years of life, that, you know, sleep just kind of gets worse from here. And the best we can do is hold on for dear life, is kind of manage the decline. You study this for a living. And so where is this story wrong? And what is it actually costing people to believe it?

• 7:56Speaker 06

  Well, sleep is one of the most important parts of the 24-hour day, but it's a health behavior that's so often overlooked by our population. And the data suggests that only about one in three adults in America consistently meet their biological need for sleep, night in and night out. And that means conversely, that we have a two-thirds problem of two-thirds of us falling short of that mark. We also have research to show that only about 18% of the population report being kind of restored by their sleep, so waking up and feeling really good. So the numbers suggest that we have a long way to go when it comes to all of us reaching the ability to have a good night's sleep every night.

• 8:36Speaker 06

  And I think that mindset is a huge and not talked about enough topic. How we think of ourselves, what type of sleeper are we? Can we sleep? Is it in our grasp? Actually, there are age-related declines in sleep. We see that a person that's about age 38 to 40 is in tip-top sleep shape. And our sleep systems can start to decline as we age from there. Specifically, we spend, the structure of our sleep changes a little bit. We get some of the, a little bit less of the stages that really allow us to wake up and feel restored. We're also more likely to suffer from middle-of-the-night awakenings. In other words, we struggle to maintain consistent sleep and kind of continuous sleep as we age.

• 9:21Speaker 06

  But the good news is despite those age-related challenges that many of us face as we age, if we draw attention to the tools and techniques and the dictates of sleep science and sleep medicine that we're going to talk about today, you can overcome a lot of those challenges, maintain healthy sleep, and all of the health benefits that follow.

• 9:42Jonathan Fields?

  And I do want to get into a whole bunch of those things that we can actually do. Before we get there, though, you know, the voice of somebody who's joining us is really chiming in and saying, okay, so I'll buy this. But you know, I feel like I, you know, I sleep less than the quote, you know, standard seven to nine hours. I've been sleeping five to six hours pretty consistently for years, and I don't feel like there's any negative effect for me. So what I'd love to explore more also is what's actually happening when we sleep? And why does both?

• 10:21Jonathan Fields?

  Duration and quality matter.

• 10:23Speaker 06

  And that person who's falling short of the recommended range, which is seven to nine hours, you are not alone. Our data suggests that many millions of Americans are falling short of their biological need every night. Only about one in three adults report consistently meeting their sleep need, which is for the vast majority of us, somewhere between seven and nine hours. That is in large part genetically determined. If you had two parents that did really well on seven hours, you might be one of the lucky ones that need a little bit less. If you had two slightly longer sleepers, you might truly need close to nine hours each and every night. So there are a variety of reasons that we fall short on our sleep

• 11:04Speaker 06

  need. Right now, screens pervade our lives and it's so easy to hop onto the couch after a long day, watch one episode, and then it goes into another episode. And before we know it, we've blown through our bedtime. There are also professional reasons. People who are building their careers are in a particularly challenging part of their years, raising kids, and then there are life stage related challenges. So there are a host of issues or barriers to our ability to getting a good night's sleep. But that person who's saying, I'm getting the five to six hours and I don't feel any decrement to that routine, I would

• 11:44Speaker 06

  say actually that I hear, I don't hear that a lot. I hear more, I just can't get more. I hear, I know I'm not feeling my best. I think I'm leaving something on the table when it comes to my performance, my productivity, my creative thinking, how I'm feeding my spouse, my kids, my loved ones. But I just can't seem to find the time. So I hear that much more often. But to the person who is getting five to six hours and saying, I don't really feel any issue or downside, I don't feel any downside, I would just encourage them to make sure in their next primary care doctor meeting that their health looks

• 12:24Speaker 06

  good and also asking themselves a tough question in the middle of the afternoon. That's what all of us, even a well-rested person, can experience a little bit of a dip in alertness. And in large part because we've been awake for so long. At that point in the day, we might have had a heavier lunch that might have caused a slight feeling of sluggishness. We also see a small dip in our core body temperature in the afternoon. So it's kind of this perfect storm for feeling sleepy and taking a nap. And ask yourself in that window of vulnerability, how do you feel? Do you feel that you're kind of reaching for coffee? Do you feel like you're reaching for an energy drink? Do you feel sluggish? Do you feel brain fog? And if you can truly say, no, I can power through the day, I feel

• 13:08Speaker 06

  great, my health is great, then you might be one of the very, very small few in our society that are not well studied. And there might be, there's some evidence to show that there are short sleepers. We think they're more in the kind of six and three quarters hours range, not necessarily the five to six. But if we look through history, there are many famous individuals who maybe even bragged about getting five to six hours of sleep and you're doing fine. For instance, Thomas Edison, he would brag about only meeting, quote unquote, four to five hours and doing great. What is not widely known is that he

• 13:49Speaker 06

  had a bed in his office and he took very lengthy naps, three to four hours at a time. So he wasn't factoring that in. And we do know that all of the benefits to our health and our well-being and what we're seeing, our longevity, is when we can get as close to that seven to nine hour range as possible. So in the other category of folks that are falling short of that need and just looking for ways to add a little bit more sleep to their bank account. One of the best ways, because so many people say, it just feels so far from where I am. I'm at five hours. How do I increase? And what we recommend is moving really slowly. So tonight, if you typically go to bed, say at midnight, and

• 14:31Speaker 06

  you wake up at six, let's move the time you start getting ready for bed earlier by 15 minutes. So if it's 12:00 AM, let's start the process at 11:45. If it's 11:00 PM, 10:45. And then do the same thing tomorrow night. So then we're moving from 11:45 to 11:30. And set a soothing alarm, something relaxing that'll just remind you and kind of jolt you out of, nudge you from where you are, whether you're working on emails or reports or watching Netflix, and get you to start the process to bed. And just try that. And if you're able to move your sleep times a little bit earlier and get a little bit closer to that recommended range and sustain that for about two weeks, because sometimes it takes our

• 15:14Speaker 06

  circadian rhythms. If we've really been on a short sleep schedule for many years, we need to adjust a little bit. But I would wager that that person would probably write to us, Jonathan, and say, wow, I have never known what it's like to be awake before. I feel energetic through the day. I'm not relying on coffee. I'm able to power through and feel great. So that's really what we're going for when we institute a healthier sleep schedule.

• 15:42Jonathan Fields?

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• 16:26Jonathan Fields?

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• 17:09Jonathan Fields?

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• 17:56Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 18:30Jonathan Fields?

  I want to also make sure I understand what you were saying about slowly, progressively moving your sleep time, your bedtime up. Because I think what a lot of us do, and I'm raising my hand here, is when I feel like, okay, I need to run an experiment here. Instead of going to bed at 11:30, I just immediately, I jump back an hour. I'm going to go to bed at 10:00 or 10:30. And it almost never worked. And so what I hear you saying then, and tell me if this is right, is that a big part of this is related to our circadian rhythms. Our circadian rhythms don't adapt that quickly. So if we just bounce forward an hour or 90 minutes in one day, we can be lying there, but our body's still programmed

• 19:12Jonathan Fields?

  to want to go to sleep later. So we have to do it more slowly to let their circadian rhythms kind of follow along. Is that right?

• 19:19Speaker 06

  Exactly. And it is one of the common mistakes that we see when people want to catch up. They think, you know, oh, I'll get to bed three hours early, you know, in bed early. And then they toss and turn and fall asleep later than their habitual bedtime. So you're exactly right, Jonathan. It all has to do with our circadian rhythm, which is Latin for circa, dies, which means about a day in Latin and refers to processes at virtually every single, in virtually every single cell of the body that are either firing or retiring at different times over the course of the 24 hour day. And all of these systems are oscillating around a 24 hour schedule because we are human beings who have adapted to life on earth over hundreds of thousands of years.

• 20:01Speaker 06

  And if you think about it, that system was never designed to make quick changes. It was how often does the time of sunset move?

• 20:09Jonathan Fields?

  Right, it's like following the seasons. So it's like a couple minutes a day.

• 20:11Speaker 06

  Moments every day, exactly. It's not hours. So, once you understand that, it becomes really clear that this circadian system, it's kind of like a piece of World War One machinery that just inches along. But in our modern lives, we hop in planes, we fly across time zones, we keep different bedtimes. It's very common in our studies to see very different. We refer to this as social jet lag, even before, you know, talking, taking out, travel. People who, you know, are just staying in their home time zone very commonly will maintain a very different schedule during the work week than the weekend and stay up an hour, two, three hours late on a Friday, Saturday night, sleep in, which unfortunately

• 20:51Speaker 06

  we kind of, you know, we relish in our society, the, you know, this idea of a lion, as they say in the UK. But unfortunately, that's one of the worst things that we can do because we're throwing our circadian rhythm really out of sync. And our system is all about routine. Our routines feed into our circadian rhythm. So by keeping consistent fall asleep times, and believe it or not, the timing of other behaviors really matter as well. Not only is sleep time important, but the timing of our meals, the timing of our exercise, of course, the timing of our light exposure, which is what we call the strongest zeitgeber. It's German for life giver. It's the strongest input to the circadian system.

• 21:35Speaker 06

  So when we expose ourselves to bright blue daylight spectrum light, which some devices do emit, some screens that are on full brightness might have this type of energizing effect. They cut off the flow of, it cuts off the flow of melatonin and produces the hormone cortisol and allows us to go about our day. Whereas conversely, the absence of light perceived through the eye travels through the brain to a tiny brain region that sits on top of the optic chiasm. So it's called the supra, sitting on top of the optic chiasm. And it takes this light input in through the eyes and then that triggers the central, what we call pacemaker of the circadian system, which is this tiny region, the suprachiasmatic nucleus.

• 22:17Speaker 06

  And then from there, pulses are sent to virtually every cell in the body on when they should be producing or firing or retiring and that our body and behavior follows accordingly. So moving slowly with the system is key. Ideally, 15 minutes, maybe 30, but not much more. And then same thing on the wake up side. If you're really exhausted, so many people say, you know, I'm working really long hours, I'm caring for kids, and these are all noble causes, of course, and they take time. And sometimes sleep is the thing that gets cut. And I'm mom of two kids. I am, you know, busy at work. I'm all too familiar to those types of challenges. But one of the key things comes, you know, I, I think is, you know, honestly, it's kind

• 23:01Speaker 06

  of how are we organizing our day to set up, set ourselves up for success, for our health, our longevity, for our ability to perform at our peak. And so if you really ask yourself, you know, ah, you know, am I scrolling for a little bit in the afternoon? Could I fill that with work time and unplug a little sooner and get in bed a little sooner? But the thing about sleep is, I really encourage this mentality of, because look, it's not going to be perfect every night. That's one thing we know. We can set ourselves up for success. And if there's some stress that you didn't address from the day, or some, you know, frustrations that you had, a difficult conversation with a friend or a spouse or a loved one, sometimes that can rear its ugly head at night and cause us to struggle and toss and

• 23:44Speaker 06

  turn and for any number of reasons, loud noise in the middle of the night. But we can set ourselves up for success by practicing the dictates of what we know to be effective. And we'll get into all of these, but relaxation strategies, bedtime routines, consistent bedtimes, all of those things are tools at your disposal. And some nights you'll be able to avail yourself of them, other nights might be hard. And I think acknowledging that is really important because so often we think, you know, exercise, nutrition, by and large, in other areas of our health and our, our lives, we have a lot of control. And if you just take other health behaviors like exercise, for instance, if you buy a new workout outfit, go to the gym, follow a workout regimen, I think you're going to

• 24:29Speaker 06

  get a pretty good workout, right? Barring injury or impediments of other kinds. But it's not always the case with sleep. And just acknowledging that, I think, can be helpful.

• 24:38Jonathan Fields?

  You mentioned two things else that I do want to circle back to, which is exercise time and meal time. And I've heard conflicting things on this. Talk to me about sort of best practices there in relation to sleep.

• 24:53Speaker 06

  In a perfect world, these would be personalized. Your personal preferred time and optimal time to work out, to eat, to sleep. So I am, my bias is I am a circadian, you know, sleep and circadian scientist. And so I think in a perfect world, as we talk about personalized medicine, would be identifying something that we call your chronotype. Your chronotype refers to your personal preference for being, you know, timing for your performance during the course of a 24 hour day and the extent to which you're a morning person or an evening person. In other words, kind of doing your best work are the ways that we get into kind of this question and figuring out where someone is on that spectrum from morningness to eveningness. And we have a couple of validated questionnaires that can help us do that.

• 25:37Speaker 06

  But one simple one is to ask yourself, when do I do my best work? And if you say, oh, you know, as soon as I wake up and I get up early, you know, it's 6:00 AM, I, you know, hit the office, hit the ground running. And then to a true evening person, that is the torture. So a true evening person would refer, would say, instead, I do my best work at night. I come alive at night. So if you think about that, your, your personal answer to that question, you can figure out your chronotype, which we kind of colloquially refer to as morning people versus evening people. And there, it's a spectrum. So maybe if you're like, you know, kind of 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, you know, not too morning, not too late, then you might be kind of in the middle.

• 26:18Speaker 06

  And so my recommendation is to protect that time for your professional endeavors or academic. If you're a student, protect those hours. If you're, you know, a writer, protect those hours. If they're evening hours, you know, protect them with your life. And then think about the timing of the other factors around that kind of optimal work time. And another question that can help us understand your chronotype is when you like to work out. A morning person loves to work out in the morning and an evening person can prefer the evening. So then you've kind of answered your question on timing of exercise in a 24 hour day. So I'm a true morning person. I get up at six or, you know, sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a little later, and I love to go for a run.

• 27:01Speaker 06

  If I don't get it in early, it probably won't happen. So for me, morning exercise is key. But, and then an evening person conversely would probably do really well with like a five or six PM workout. So obviously, you know, your life and what's going on, you know, for you personally, professionally matters. But in, in terms of the times to avoid can sometimes, you know, be another way to answer this question. And I think there's been a lot said and studied about exercise too close to bedtime. But what I, what I typically recommend is we just do know without a shadow of a doubt that those that exercise get better sleep than those that do not. And often so many of us are just struggling to get a workout in, you know, a couple of times a week. And so my best recommendation is try not to overthink this.

• 27:45Speaker 06

  Whenever you can get exercise in, whenever you're able to, whenever you look forward to it, do it, you know, get it in, break a sweat. That's going to be the most important thing for your health and for your sleep. Then as far as meals go, there's kind of just a fascinating literature that's also a little bit mixed, some of the findings called intermittent fasting. And that whole field of work has actually been, many of the studies have come out of sleep in circadian labs, looking at the timing of food and meal intake and sleep and timing of sleep. And, and basically what that has shown, what, you know, inconclusively, excuse me, is that keeping a buffer between the last time you eat and the, when you want to be falling asleep is a good thing. It boosts the time that you're fasting, which is good for our health and it also helps

• 28:31Speaker 06

  your sleep. So if you can think of nothing else, there are lots of different ways to think about an intermittent fasting if you want to just, but basically I think what I generally recommend is thinking about, you know, can I delay my bed, my breakfast a little bit? And can I pull my dinner a little bit earlier? It'll be better for your sleep, it'll be better for your health, your waistline, et cetera. But of course, you know, personal, you know, your family, your routines. But if you just keep those, those dictates in mind, try not to do any, you know, high intensity workouts, maybe close to bedtime, might be a good thing to keep in mind. But otherwise, the more exercise, the better.

• 29:06Jonathan Fields?

  On, on the chronotype thing, curiosity here, can that change over time? And here's why I'm asking. So many years ago, I'm also a writer. Many years ago, I tried to say, okay, there's lore in the writing community that says the best time to write is you wake up first thing in the morning, that's sort of like dawn hours and nobody's around, nobody can bother you, you're kind of still in that creative haze and just sit down and knock out a couple of hours, that's going to be your best writing time. And I tried it and it was a disaster. So I said, I am not that person. I can't wake up, open my eyes and just write and be creative. And I ignored it, I walked away from it. And about six months ago, I started into a new book. And I said, you know, it's been a long time.

• 29:49Jonathan Fields?

  The way my schedule is right now, if I could make it work, it would really work best if I could open my eyes first thing in the morning and then sit down and write. And I realized it'd been a really long time since I tested it. So I said, I'm, I'm going to assume that I'm still the same as I ever was. I can't, that's just not my chronotype. I'm not, my brain isn't there first thing in the morning. But I tested it. So I committed to 30 days of literally going to my local cafe and, and I drink coffee, but not caffeinated, so that wasn't a factor here really. And I sat down at seven in the morning and I just. Ran the experiment to see what my brain was doing. I was astonishingly productive. So, and this was maybe a decade in between sort of like these two tests.

• 30:33Jonathan Fields?

  Can our chronotypes change over time?

• 30:35Speaker 06

  By and large, your chronotype is somewhat, we think genetically determined. So if you had two parents that were morning people, you're probably going to be a morning person. And if you have two parents that are evening people, you're probably going to be an evening person. But that can ebb and flow over time. The teenage years are one example. Teenagers actually shift to being more owl-like or evening-like. And we have physiological data to back that up. They, we see a delay in the secretion of melatonin in the teenage brain. So that most teenagers, despite their genetic orientation, generally transition to being a little bit more owl-like during the teenage years. And then they shift back to being a morning person in their early twenties. So that's one example of a shift.

• 31:17Speaker 06

  But I think that, you know, these things can definitely ebb and flow a little bit. And also, keep in mind, I'm not sure if this experiment was taking place in the summertime, but in the summertime, I think we all, it's just very hard to combat the bright sunlight coming into our bedrooms. You know, blackout curtains can really, really help. And if you have good ones, it could seal your, your windows. But I'm, I'd be curious if maybe light was factoring in a little bit. We have data to show that we sleep a little bit less and do, wake up a tiny bit earlier in the summer months due to the ample access to sunshine.

• 31:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And for me, so this was a January 1st experiment. So this was like the shortest time of year. And, and I know I am sensitive to, to light coming into the room. Literally as we have this conversation, we installed blackout shades in the bedroom yesterday.

• 32:03Speaker 06

  Amazing. Well, I love that. But I, you know, I'd love you to fill out our questionnaire. And, you know, are you an evening person or a morning person? Love to see your response to that. Cause I think sometimes we, you know, the story you shared of journalists, you know, sharing these kind of goals or, you know, morning work, I think a lot of fields, and maybe our society kind of valorizes the idea of, you know, early bird gets the worm.

• 32:29Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 06

  And I, so often with those phrases, I'm like, no, what about our evening types? You know, evening types, you know, need awareness, truly, because it, for them, the perfect workplace is, you know, starting at 11 and finishing up at, you know, five or six, you know, six or seven PM. And their peak productivity and employer would get more out of that person if they aligned their work schedule with their chronotype. And so, but I think, you know, sorry, coming back to this idea of, you know, the stories we tell ourselves or like the, you know, sayings in our society actually really matter. You know, early bird gets the worm. And so often evening types come to us and say, you know, I'm just, they're just completely desynchronized in terms of their circadian rhythm.

• 33:12Speaker 06

  And it often has to do with them kind of forcing themselves into a morning person's schedule. And you also hear things like, you know, the 4:00 AM club or the 5:00 AM club and how, you know, want to join it and just, you know, just do this and you'll, you know, be able to change your life. But I think, you know, awareness is everything. Just notice how you feel. And if you were productive and you didn't feel brain fog, that's amazing. Maybe it was a slight change in your chronotype or, you know, maybe it's the cultural environment where you are and you're doing more of the earlier dinners, you're getting to bed a little earlier and you're kind of getting the sleep that you need. And so you can see a little shift there and, you know, ride it. Cause to me, aligning your schedule with, you know, allowing, even times that allow

• 33:53Speaker 06

  you to thrive and perform at your peak and treat your loved ones, you know, well, and, you know, have a dinner time that works for all of you. There's so many factors to consider often.

• 34:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So a lot of what I hear you saying is, okay, read what you want to read, listen to what you want to listen to in order to learn, but run your own experiments because we don't know until we know. And, you know, if you're, if you read something that says 70% of the people benefit when they do this, and you're in the 30%, you're busted if you buy into like, and you start to do those other things. So just, it sounds like there's a big invitation here to just, okay, think about your exercise, think about your meals, think about the different things that you want to do and run the experiment of slotting them into different times of day and then really pay attention. Maybe even, do you, do you find it valuable or interesting to even, the way that nutritionists

• 34:45Jonathan Fields?

  have new clients keep a food journal, almost like keep an activity and sleep journal so people can start to get a beat on how things are affecting them.

• 34:53Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And if you're tracking your sleep with one of the commercially available wearable sleep devices, even better. Those are, you know, exploding. We have some data to show that about 30% of the population are using a smartphone, a wearable device, or what we call a nearable device, devices that might sit on your nightstand and give you an approximation. So these devices are becoming increasingly popular. If you have one of those, I would really encourage you to use it and engage in this, what I like to think of as N of one experimentation. You being the subject, N of one experiment, you know, what if I cut out coffee? How will I feel? What about, you know, if I cut out that nightcap that I, you know, I do maybe look forward to, but it's, you know, maybe hurting my ability to fall asleep or get good quality sleep.

• 35:37Speaker 06

  So going through this, this thought process of, you know, what, what changes might I try? If I move my sleep times or wake times, you know, how do I feel? How does my sleep respond? So I think we're now positioned in a really unique way to do that type of experimentation. But, you know, wearables are great, but there's also so much power to just a simple diary like you proposed, Jonathan. I couldn't agree more. And there's a wonderful one, the National Sleep Foundation has on their website. If you Google National Sleep Foundation Sleep Diary, you can download that from their website. And the process, and I think it's just a fabulous process for all of us to journal a little bit and reflect on your day. And if a piece of paper on your nightstand can help you do that, then all the better. And just reflecting on, you know, when did I have my last cup of coffee?

• 36:21Speaker 06

  Cause a good sleep journal will allow you to just be aware of some of the sleep-related things that you do over the course of the day. Did you go for a walk? Did you get any time outdoors? Did you exercise today? So what time? When did you fall asleep? How long did it take you to fall asleep? And almost the process of journaling can then help us in a typical day also be more aware of our behaviors.

• 36:40Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. That makes so much sense to me. And because you can't change, we can't measure, right? So to the extent that we can just pay attention and notice, and even with the sleep trackers or the, the wearables or the nearables that you described, I hadn't heard that term before. There's, what's interesting as you're describing this, and, and I have worn and experimented with a bunch of them over the years, is that I always just put them on and I'll look at the data that they just give me by default. And almost all of them now have a logging functionality to it also. It's like, hey, enter what you were doing or how you were feeling. I never use that. And I'm just saying, as you're describing this, it would make so much sense to just throw a word in there, like working, hiking, running, sleeping, stress, low stress.

• 37:22Jonathan Fields?

  And like how, because you could probably then tie it to physiological markers so much more, and it'd be so much more valuable in making decisions. Is that land?

• 37:32Speaker 06

  Absolutely. A lot of the trackers are encouraging users to do that because of course they measure objective behavior, but collecting self-reported behavior. I think they're getting better and better at understanding what we're doing. I mean, it's amazing. Many of the devices will kind of aggregate that for you. So if you, you know, you make notes about your writing, the times that you're, you know, the most productive or, you know, tag things, a lot of the companies are starting to feed that back to users. And that type of information is so powerful for our behavior change. Cause if we can see our sleep after night, a glass of wine or more, you know, going out late with, with friends for dinner, you can see the data. It's just so powerful to say, you know, oh, that's why I don't feel great today. And it's very motivational for getting back on track the next night.

• 38:16Jonathan Fields?

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• 39:00Jonathan Fields?

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• 39:42Jonathan Fields?

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• 40:27Jonathan Fields?

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• 41:09Jonathan Fields?

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• 41:53Jonathan Fields?

  You shared a couple of things that would, I think a lot of people would say, fall under this bucket of what is often called sleep hygiene. Darkening the room is one of them. There's probably somewhere between five and 10 of the common things that fall under that umbrella. And I've often been, you know, it's like, keep a cooler room for some people, noise sensitivity. I've often been curious, how much of that is actually validated in the data versus just common things that seem to make sense? Of the basket of typical sleep hygienes, is there an 80/20 here? Is there real science behind some of them or all of them, which makes sense to actually say yes to?

• 42:32Speaker 06

  Oh, definitely robust science behind, at least the recommendations that we offer and are endorsed by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. I like to think of them as kind of commandments, but also don't get overwhelmed. I think maybe one way to think of it is, this is a laundry list or constellation of things that we know are good for your sleep. Do you have to do everyone every night? No. You could, again, coming back to that idea of the N of one experiment, how might I try one a week? Maybe think about revising my bedtime routine or optimizing my bedroom environment. But the ones I like to talk about are, number one, there just is no exception for spending the time. All of our data show that the most optimal health, well-being, and alertness comes when

• 43:15Speaker 06

  we're spending somewhere between seven and nine hours sleeping, as many nights of the week as possible. The second is consistent sleep times. This is stuff our kids do so well, and they are the most well-rested in our society. But falling asleep is close to the same time, and waking up is close to the same time, Monday through Monday, trying not to sleep in for more than one hour. The bedroom environment, I love talking about, because I think sometimes the behavioral stuff that we're talking about here is almost harder to do sometimes. If someone really loves that glass of wine before bed, or loves coffee, it's sometimes harder to change our behavior, but it's easier to think about the environment. So I like to think, I know it's a little cheesy, but I want your bedroom to be a sanctuary to sleep. I want you to walk in and feel instantly relaxed.

• 43:59Speaker 06

  So color matters, sound matters, temperature matters, and light. So if you find yourself waking, and then you could kind of think of those as like, are any of these hurting my sleep? Does light wake me up? Could I get some thicker shades? Just like you said, Jonathan, could I maybe use a clothespin to just close that little opening that is often in so many curtains that can allow light to get through? Sound, is my bedroom noisy? Are there noises outside? Maybe use an air purifier? That would do the same thing as a noise machine, but also purify the air in your room as well. So thinking about the bedroom environment and all the things in your bedroom, do they stress you out? Where's your phone located? So there could be some fun things.

• 44:42Speaker 06

  And one of the things we do in a lot of our studies is a bedroom audit. We'll have people take pictures of their bedrooms and then come back and show us, and we'll kind of workshop them together. So the bedroom matters. Nutrition and sleep are connected. We touched on this a little bit, but we ideally want breakfast to be heartier and more calories to sustain your activity over the course of the day, lunch to be a little bit lighter, dinner to be very light, lightest meal of the day, ideally.

• 45:09Jonathan Fields?

  Which is the opposite. I mean, so many people now skip breakfast, and then they have lunch as a big meal, and then dinner is like the big sit-down. That's where most of your calories are. So that's interesting, you're saying flip it, basically.

• 45:19Speaker 06

  Yes, and dinner's so important, connecting with your friends or your loved ones. But ideally, dinner's on the lighter side, because we don't need the calories we're consuming. We're about to enter the closest thing that we get to hibernation as humans. So keeping dinner on the lighter side and having an earlier breakfast has actually been shown in the nutritional literature to be better for weight and kind of weight management outcomes, but also better for sleep. It's often referred to as a breakfast of kings, a lunch of princes, and a dinner of poppers, which I love. But then timing matters also, trying to keep that on the earlier side. Just quite simply, I think sometimes we overthink a lot of these things, and we open social media and see these complex routines and schedules and feel overwhelmed. But make it simple for yourself. How late can you push breakfast? Ask yourself.

• 46:04Speaker 06

  Does that mean for you, I mean, 8:00 AM is kind of late for me, 9:00 AM is super late for me, someone in my shoes, but it's perfect for, later would be better for an evening type. So if you can push your breakfast a little bit, and if you can pull your dinner back a little bit, amazing. And just try to repeat that, because, again, the timing of our meals, the timing of our sleep, all of these behaviors are interrelated. And timing really is important for our circadian system to know what it should expect. When do I want to be falling asleep? When should I be secreting the hormone melatonin?

• 46:37Jonathan Fields?

  We've talked about some interesting behavioral considerations, and then you just shared a handful of environmental considerations. Is there another bucket here that we should be looking at, or are those the main things?

• 46:47Speaker 06

  The environment matters. We talked about that. Other health behaviors. So we talked about exercise and nutrition. Another category is not only the timing and kind of the volume of food, but what we're eating or drinking. So keeping caffeine to a minimum in the later part of our day. Also being mindful of how much caffeine you consume, because there is a kind of dose-response relationship. The more you drink, the longer it can stay in your system. It has a half-life, much like a drug. So if you basically feel your heart racing as you approach bedtime, that could be a sign that maybe you've had a little too much caffeine and to pull back a little bit tomorrow. Alcohol is in that bucket also, being mindful of alcohol consumption.

• 47:28Speaker 06

  I like to joke that I encourage day drinking, because drinking close to bedtime can sometimes not be good for our sleep. It alters the structure of our sleep at night. So we'll go through fewer cycles and spend more time in lighter stages, which is why, if you've ever drank a few beverages, gone to sleep, maybe slept for five, six hours, seven, however many hours, but you feel like you hardly slept a wink, that can be why. Another category of things I really like to talk about are the bedtime routine. I actually like to use the word ritual to think about the time that you spend before sleep. And I think there's this idea of like, we can work and we can do it all. We can work up until we want to be falling asleep, and then just shut your laptop, and

• 48:13Speaker 06

  then head to bed, and then go to sleep. But we really need to think about the time before sleep as a vital part of sleep itself. It is very hard for us to go from all of the stimulation on a rich screen, email, social media, and getting all of that rich information, and sometimes blue light exposure, and then slip into sleep. We're really not built for that. We talked a lot about the circadian rhythm. So I love to talk about bedtime routines and building them out, because our children are doing this so well, and they are the most well-rested in our society, right? They fall asleep at the same time, they wake up at the same time. And I think as adults, we sometimes think that we're somehow immune to those needs.

• 48:54Speaker 06

  But consistency, our research is finding, is as important, if not more, than duration. It's critical. And then building in time to rest and relax around your habitual bedtime. And that can serve as kind of a buffer from your day and create the space and the kind of landing strip onto which you can land and fall asleep. But without that, our heart rate can be elevated, all the wrong parts of the brain can be illuminated and activated when we want to be falling asleep. So if you can give me five minutes, if you can give me 10 minutes, if you can give me 20 minutes, if you can give me more, great. But start small. If you're not doing anything as far as a bedtime routine, start with literally five minutes. Most people are not doing this.

• 49:38Speaker 06

  It's shocking how little time people spend before bedtime. And consciously, yeah, fill it with things you love. Consciously start to slow down your breathing, and tell yourself, this is my time, this is my bedtime routine. I'm switching off screens. I'm going to maybe turn my phone to airplane mode, or do not disturb, I'm going to put that down, and I'm going to switch my breathing to be a little bit more thoughtful. I'm going to get ready for bed. And then you kind of move through the steps, maybe that's brushing your teeth, washing your face. If you have time and if it's relaxing to you, take a warm shower. A warm shower or a warm bath is a really healthy reset, and kind of psychologically and actually rinsing off the day.

• 50:21Speaker 06

  It can just be a really great kind of bookend to your day. And then pick two or three things that you love. If that's reading, if it's journaling, if it's sewing, if it's needlepointing, whatever it is that you love to do, do that before bed. And if you need ideas, another great one is thinking about one good thing from your day. Focus on one really positive experience. Maybe someone that did something particularly nice for you, or something you did that made you feel good. I think so often, at the end of the day, we kind of come crashing down. We live in a society that's very reactionary. We send emails, we make reports, we send them off, and we're kind of putting out fires.

• 51:04Speaker 06

  We very rarely leave time to process our emotions, to think, to breathe, over the course of the day. And if we're not doing that, our day can kind of really hit us at nighttime. So the last part of a great bedtime routine are breathing exercises. And so if you can do and commit to doing even two rounds of a breathing exercise, I'd love to do one with you. That is a fabulous way, another way to bookend your day and kind of release some of the stress. So if you would humor me, I'd love to do one. So uncross your legs if they're crossed, and anyone listening, follow along. And let's all close our eyes together and start to shift your breath to be in and out through your nose.

• 51:47Speaker 06

  Take a deep, thoughtful breath in and expand your belly out to the sides of the room.

• 51:55Speaker 06

  And now purse your lips and exhale that breath through the mouth.

• 52:01Speaker 06

  Nice and slow.

• 52:04Speaker 06

  Breathe in, slow and steady, through the nose.

• 52:10Speaker 06

  Think about taking up time and space, and then exhale that breath, purse the lips through the mouth.

• 52:19Speaker 06

  And now let's try that again, breathing in through the nose for a count of four.

• 52:28Speaker 06

  Now hold the breath for a count of seven.

• 52:36Speaker 06

  And then purse the lips again and exhale for a count of eight.

• 52:49Speaker 06

  And inhale, open your eyes. We just did one round of the four, seven, eight technique. It's a technique that's used by the military to build focus, to help with relaxation. And it's extremely powerful for a couple of reasons. There are a random set of numbers.

• 53:05Jonathan Fields?

  I literally feel like it like slightly down regulate even just that one cycle.

• 53:09Speaker 06

  It's insane. It's so powerful. It's my favorite because I am very type A and my brain is just constantly flying from one thing to another. And I've found that that exercise has done a world of good for me and my ability to relax, to find, you know, for stress management and for my bedtime routine. So whether you like that, there are a lot of other breathing exercises. The box breathing technique, alternate nostril breathing. I'd encourage you to experiment with a couple of breathing exercises. And I hope if you were able to do that with us, that you found that you put yourself in the driver's seat in 60 seconds of your nervous system. It's just so powerful.

• 53:51Speaker 06

  So committing to practicing even one round of a breathing exercise in your bedtime routine is another great addition. So we've talked about a number of options, but I encourage anyone listening, find one, two, maybe three things that you can do as many nights of the week as possible. I call it a ritual because a ritual is something we do night in and night out. And so if you're doing it consistently, your brain starts to understand what comes next is sleep. So that can be the power behind the bedtime ritual.

• 54:21Jonathan Fields?

  And I think that it's, I love the fact that there's a whole bunch of things that you can just try and see what works for you. Again, we keep coming back to this theme of run the experiment, see what works for you. Let's say somebody does all these things. They find the thing that works for them. They doze off or they don't like they're doing every quote, everything right. They've run the experiment. They've really tried to dial in everything. They're trying all the different things and either it's not helping them drift off easily or they're fitful throughout the night. They just wake up regularly all night long. A lot of people in that situation will often reach for, either they'll reach for a screen or a phone or a device or something like that. Some people will reach for medication.

• 55:06Jonathan Fields?

  If somebody is regular, if they're doing all these things and they really want to improve the quality and duration of their sleep because they feel like it's affecting them and they want to make a difference, but it just doesn't seem to be moving the needle. Where do you go from there?

• 55:22Speaker 06

  Sometimes people have kind of will say, no, I've tried everything. If you're really struggling, I would encourage you, all of those strategies we walked through, really be honest with yourself. Have I tried to move my bedtime a little bit earlier? Have I tried to implement those breathing exercises? Have I got enough screens before bedtime? Have I, you know, looked at the caffeine? Have I looked at alcohol? Have I been mindful about my, you know, meals? All the things that we just talked about. And if you're being honest with yourself and, and still struggling and specifically experiencing one of, well, one of or more of the following, difficulty falling asleep. So taking 30 minutes or longer and really tossing and turning, really struggling to calm the mind, lower your heart rate, get to bed.

• 56:07Speaker 06

  The other, and this is kind of chronic, is several nights of the week and into, over the course of several weeks or longer. Another complaint is maybe you're able to fall asleep, but you wake up and you can't fall back asleep. So those are two of the primary complaints of insomnia. When experienced night in and night out for several weeks or longer, we really encourage you to speak to a healthcare provider. Speak to your primary care provider and ask for a referral for a sleep medicine specialist. That specialist will be able to talk you through the options, either pharmacotherapy or working with a behavioral coach to nudge and navigate you and, and make some small changes that can kind of kickstart a healthy sleep routine and get us out of some ruts that we can just develop.

• 56:49Speaker 06

  We can sometimes develop these patterns through professional, for professional reasons or personal reasons, you know, whether you were up to care for a baby and then that, you know, middle of the night awakening stuck or, you know, a call with Asia that, you know, you took in your twenties and now, you know, you're a, you know, a person that gets up in the middle of the night. Generally speaking, barring sleep disorders, there's not such a type of person. So think about really being diligent, trying all the tools and techniques. I'm also a huge believer of the bedtime ritual. Really work on that. You know, really unplug from screens, even 10 minutes and practice the relaxation, maybe reading, and then try to fall asleep. And if those strategies are not working and you're experiencing those chronic insomnia like symptoms, that's when you speak to a healthcare provider.

• 57:34Speaker 06

  There's another sleep disorder, there are actually more than 90 differentially diagnosable that I don't think we have enough time disorders to go through today. But another one that is concerning is obstructive sleep apnea. A patient with OSA will report excessive daytime sleepiness. Often a bed partner might say that they choke or gasp for air. Will also wake with kind of a dry mouth. Often people in the household will report a very loud, raucous snoring. If those symptoms sound like they might impact you or a loved one, then another reason to speak to your primary care provider and ask for a referral to a sleep specialist.

• 58:08Jonathan Fields?

  Okay. So you just brought up a bedtime partner and that, that opens another door because a lot of people don't sleep alone. And if you are coupled with somebody else culturally, you know, like we're quote, supposed to sleep in the same bed, in the same bedroom. But if one person, even if they don't have an obstructive sleep happening, but they're a snorer and they seem to be sleeping fine with it, but you can't sleep with it. It brings up this question of do we sleep in separate beds, in separate bedrooms? And it's an interesting question, right? Because practically, maybe you're thinking, well, that makes a lot of sense, but culturally there's a lot that rides along with this.

• 58:52Speaker 06

  This is a great question. And sleep, especially if you have a partner, really it's not an individual thing. And we have so many couples that either have mismatched schedules, work schedules, sleep schedules, or snoring impacts, you know, both, you know, one or more, or both partners. I think unfortunately, this is starting to be referred to as a sleep divorce where people are choosing to sleep separately. But I love, a patient once told me, she was like, no, it's a sleep marriage because it's saving my marriage. And I loved that reframe. And I think, you know, the key question, sometimes people will be like, but I love cuddling with my partner, you know, we're missing out. But truly, you're not creating lasting memories while you're sleeping. And, you know, if it's cuddling before bedtime and then sneaking off into your separate beds

• 59:33Speaker 06

  that will allow you both to get restorative, deep sleep that will allow you to wake up and be the best spouse you want to be, to be the best mother, father, caregiver to your kids or older adults or dog, you know, whatever your goals are, personal, professional, you really can meet them with better sleep. And so of course I'm biased as a sleep scientist, but when we can put sleep at the center of our relationships, of our lives, there are so many positive things that follow.

• 59:58Jonathan Fields?

  And that feels like a good place for us to come full circle to. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 1:00:06Speaker 06

  You must get great sleep.

• 1:00:08Jonathan Fields?

  Thank you. So let's talk about some of the big insights and takeaways here. One thing that's really stayed with me is how much I'd been quietly accepting that groggy afternoons and restless nights are just what happens now without ever asking what my body was actually trying to tell me. Three things I want you to walk away with in addition to that. The 15 minute nudge. If you're trying to shift your bedtime, moving it in small increments works a lot better and jumping straight into an hour or sometimes more, trying to move it earlier by too much, it almost never does. It may really sabotage your desire to change things. The overnight wash cycle, something else that she described. Your brain has a genuine mechanism for clearing out the buildup tied to long-term cognitive

• 1:00:53Jonathan Fields?

  decline while we sleep. It only runs when you're asleep. And sleep marriage, not sleep divorce. I love sort of like the rephrasing there. If separate rooms get both of you the actual rest that you need, that's not a relationship failing, that is one succeeding. So here's what I'd ask this week. Pick one thing that Dr. Robbins mentioned, maybe the 15 minute nudge. That's actually one I'm going to be trying. Or the breathing exercise, that four, seven, eight breathing exercise is really fascinating. An earlier dinner or just try it for three nights, maybe not perfectly, just give it a try and see what happens. Hey, before you leave also, next week, we're sitting down with Tommy Wood to talk about what the research actually shows about keeping your brain sharp across decades, including

• 1:01:36Jonathan Fields?

  which levers matter most, what is mostly noise and what you can realistically start doing tomorrow, whether you're 45 or 65 or 75. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss that or any other upcoming episodes. And if this episode landed, or maybe you know somebody who could use a little help with their sleep, go ahead and share it with just one person. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Troy Young, Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already, take just an extra second here and follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss a conversation. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

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