Issa Rae on Friendships That Need to Go, from IMO

Sharing a new show from our friends at Higher Ground. On IMO, Michelle and her big brother Craig Robinson bring their candid perspectives to the everyday questions shaping our lives, relationships and the world around us. Each week, they’re joined by a guest to tackle real questions from real folks just like you offering practical advice, personal storytelling, and plenty of laughs. Topics range from dating and relationships, to family and faith. Michelle and Craig share stories about being there for each other throughout their lives, from first crushes and fraught college years, to landing at the White House, to losing their mom. For six decades they’ve been each others’ most trusted counsel—and now, they want to be that counsel for you. In this episode, they’re joined by actress Issa Rae for a conversation about navigating the challenges of mismatched expectations in adult friendships. You can find more episodes of IMO at https://lnk.to/imomichellecraigGL Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  Hey Good Life Project listeners. I am dropping into your feed with something a little bit different and really special today. It's a new show from our friends at Higher Ground hosted by Michelle Obama called IMO. So you know on Good Life Project, we have insightful conversations that give fresh perspectives, uplift you, and leave you feeling more fulfilled. Well, similarly on IMO, Michelle and her big brother Craig Robinson tackle real questions from real folks just like you, offering practical advice, personal storytelling, and plenty of laughs. Each week, they're joined by a guest bringing candid perspectives to the everyday questions shaping our lives, relationships, and the world around us. Topics range from dating and relationships to family and faith.

• 0:41Jonathan Fields?

  Michelle and Craig share stories about being there for each other throughout their lives, from first crushes to fraught college years, to landing at the White House, to losing their mom. For six decades, they have been each other's most trusted counsel, and now they want to be that counsel for you. In this episode, they're joined by actress Issa Rae for a conversation about navigating the challenges of mismatched expectations in adult friendships. Okay, here comes the preview. You can find more episodes of IMO wherever you get podcasts.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Like the crisis would require an emergency session.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Like somebody's on a train.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, flying.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  You know, there's movement and you're not gonna deal with a crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming, we're coming. It's a crisis.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like this is... Took off work.

• 1:32Speaker 03

  That is a script. That is something that you could write on television.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Plan and do it in text, like, you know, she not gonna be good. Like she's, she doesn't need this right now, you know?

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Not a crisis. Obviously not a crisis.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  Sorry.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Or the dog emojis.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Dude, I didn't know you had a dog.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog?

• 2:00Speaker 03

  Okay. We are mad.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  Hey.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Well, hi again, you. It's you again. Oh, I like your, is that pink?

• 2:20Speaker 03

  It's, uh, my wife called it coral, but it could be pink.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is coral and it's a little pleated. Well, this is, this is breaking out of the, you know, basketball thing.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Watch out now.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  And that little collar. Okay, I see you. Craig Robinson.

• 2:36Speaker 03

  I am, uh, I'm thrilled that you like my clothes.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  See, you guys, it's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  You know, you don't even need much closet space. But you're stepping out, you're stepping out.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  What's new and exciting?

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Well, I gotta tell you, while we're out here in LA, Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in. And since you won't be able to drive one, since you don't, you don't drive.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  I might, no, no, I'm starting to drive.

• 3:08Speaker 03

  Really?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can drive.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  How's that? How, how's the Secret Service letting you drive?

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Well, it's a secret. You, you could take me for a spin.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  They'll let me take you for a spin?

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee? And the boys wanted me to pick them up from school? And we did.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  And you tooled up in a motorcade to their school?

• 3:28Speaker 01

  In the pickup line. They were just like, "Neeesh." I was like, "Yeah, yeah."

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Four cars deep in the pickup line?

• 3:36Speaker 01

  That was so much fun. I'm sure their friends were like, "What the heck?"

• 3:42Speaker 03

  And then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like, "Meep."

• 3:45Speaker 01

  I'm like, "Sssss, like, get in." And don't touch the guns.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  I do remember that.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness. But, um, so we're talking about friendship today.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and people know by now that you and I are like, have been best friends since you were born.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yep, because it couldn't happen before then.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  Nope, it could not happen before then. But, um, my, my first question to you is, how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Like the little, little, I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little, little time, although as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral. They did, right. And two of my girl-girls from grammar school, the Gores, Pam and Nikki, and they had a little sister, Gina, but they came to the funeral. And it was funny, we got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't, I hadn't missed a minute with them. But, so we vowed to keep, to keep in touch, but outside of childhood, I can say that

• 5:03Speaker 01

  I have at least, almost at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life. Okay. So what I found is like, one of, you know, my best friend roommate, who you know, Angela from Princeton, she was my roommate, she's my girl, always talked to her. From law school, my friend Verna, just went to her house for lunch just the other day. She's in DC, you know, and then there are my mom friends, because as I got married. But then even before that, that was Pam, she was more my professional friend when I was, when, when we were grownups and had jobs at law firms and, you know, I could go on and on like that.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said, when Barack won and we got into the White House, you know, one of the things we were like, no new friends, that's it. And I was like, ah, you know. I did say that. Yeah, you were kind of joking, but it was important for me, in the normalcy of my life, to be able to, or to keep my life normal, even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I, I, I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  Right. And, and this today's show is talking about differences with those friends.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Falling out of friendship.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  With, with, with good friends and, um, and I'm just, I'm just thinking, see, guys are a little different. Guys are, their friendships are more transactional, right?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  What do you mean by that?

• 6:45Speaker 03

  Well, what I mean is after sort of grammar school and high school where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character. Most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a sporting event.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  You've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't want to go, so you, alright, I'm gonna take three friends.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, let's be friends. Come to the game with me.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  Guys do that. Guys would.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  That's why y'all are broken.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  We are not broken, but, but we, we, we don't go as deep.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  So if something happens, we're not as hurt.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Is that, are you, is that more men, y'all scared?

• 7:38Speaker 03

  No, nobody said it was scared. It's just a.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  I don't want my feelings hurt, so I don't, I can't know you.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  It's a, it's just a function of how we socialize with each other. And, and like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:57Speaker 03

  In a year, or I could talk to every week and the relationship is mostly the same.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  That's because y'all don't talk about nothing.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  Well, we don't. You're right about that. It's, it's, it's hard to go deep. You, you know when we go deep?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Is when it's too late.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Deathbed. It's like, woo.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Or, you know.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Bubba, I wish I had asked him about his family.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  We're getting a divorce.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And then there's some tragedy. It's like, why didn't you say anything?

• 8:26Speaker 03

  I didn't say anything because I didn't want to burden you and I was going to thug through it myself.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  But today's show, we're going to talk about, you know, sort of falling out of friendship with close friends and.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  We are company.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  We do have company and I can't tell you how excited I am for this company. Because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch rom-com-ish type shows. And my wife said, you gotta watch This Insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. And she said, you gotta watch it. It's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And, and, and she said, you're, you're gonna like it. I said, I'm not gonna like it. She made me watch the first two episodes back to back. Because she was like on episode four. I was, I watched the first one. I was like, all right, it's not bad.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  I watched the second one and then I watched the third and the fourth because I was only going to watch the first two. And I just fell in love with this actress. Who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer and she was now getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a, and a community folk, you know?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  Kind of like y'all.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Just in the community, doing stuff for black folks.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Giving it, giving it back.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  Giving it back and just so supremely talented. Let's bring on Issa Rae.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Issa, watch him, watch him.

• 9:59Speaker 03

  See, I'm just meeting her for the first time. Oh, so happy to have you here.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Well, welcome to the table.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. I was just nodding and mm-hmm back there. I had so many times I wanted to jump in.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Well, what's been going on?

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Oh, so much. I'm doing really well. I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned a restaurant. That is called Somerville, that's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.

• 10:33Speaker 03

  What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant? Is that a dream or was it just circumstantial?

• 10:39Speaker 02

  You know, it's twofold. I've always said if I wasn't a writer, I'd be a bartender or a waitress.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Really?

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Well, there you go.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  I like, I like the food environment. I love serving. I love hosting. And there is a degree of that. And I love eating out. And so since I was young, I've even play, like doing play dates with my brother, my little brother. Our play dates would be.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Restaurant.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Restaurant. Yes. And I would be the bossy restaurant owner.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Sounds familiar.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  And then also, I remember having my best friend and I have the same birthday. And it was like the 30-something birthday.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  You're a Capricorn, too.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  I'm a Capricorn.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Like me, 17.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Yes, you already know, 12th over here.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  That's why we bossy.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. I know. I don't like to say it. I want to give my mother that satisfaction. But we were just out. We always celebrate our birthday together. We went to dinner. And we were just like, ah, let's go. Like, we trying to go out. And in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club. You're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time. It was so hard. We went to like so many different spots. And it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just, and it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from LA. We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that was like my villain origin story where I was like, I want to, I want that in my neighborhood.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Man, doing it with your little baby boss self.

• 12:08Speaker 03

  Were you gonna say something?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  I wanted to find out.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Go ahead.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  We talk about friendships and we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships. But something people ask me, you know, which applies to you, is that as you've become. Issa Rae. You know, how has that affected friendships for you? Or has it? You know, have you become more cautious? Have you, have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently? You're felt like you needed to think about friendships differently? Given your, you know, your ascent and who you've become.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  I have been very lucky that I've had, you know, friends since high school. Because I'm from LA. And there is a sense of this feeling like my job. Like I don't, I didn't, I didn't move here to become myself.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  I was already here and I grew up around this environment. And a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is Joey Sejoke. That's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, those are people who don't really know me.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation. But I've had, I've definitely had friendship breakups.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  As a result, some as a result of working together. As we both descended, some as a result of not being able to handle the, the change in position, the time. Like I have, I had a friend who I thought I was going to be friends with forever. But she went through two major milestones. Kind of traumatic milestones, really young. She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things. And I didn't, as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was, that was actually strike two, I think, on my part for her.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Strike one was her father died when she was in college. And that was, she was the first friend whose parent had passed away. And I felt like I wasn't equipped to like truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started like, I'm rising in my own career. And I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously. So we fell apart and drifted apart. And we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  One of my most painful friendship breakups. Because it wasn't acknowledged.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  In that way.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  But I haven't had any like, you're famous, I'm using you type things.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Well, that's a perfect segue for our listener letter. It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So Natalie, are you ready to?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Read us.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Read us the letter?

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  All right.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:28Speaker 04

  Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Eva and I'm 32 years old. In my early twenties, I met my friend Kristen through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest, though, my friendship with Kristen felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless. Like, both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in, show up for each other. But I noticed right away that Kristen wanted to make plans pretty often. I'm a people pleaser, and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates. And when it came to my dating in particular,

• 16:13Speaker 04

  she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts, and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends. Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristen. She's incredibly thoughtful, and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together, and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years.

• 16:43Speaker 04

  Recently, though, Kristen lost a close family member. And when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me. She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over. Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect. But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners,

• 17:26Speaker 04

  but they are people we love and I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself. How do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations? Is it possible? What do adult friends owe each other? Thanks for your thoughts, Eva.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  That took so many turns.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Can I just say, before we dig into this, there would never be a guy that wrote a question like that. We just don't, it's not our thing.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated because we are, we go there, we are, you know, we, and we spend so much time playing out the sociology. I think women, and I don't want to generalize, but women more so, we are sociologists. I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just gonna throw a ball, you know? We're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I want to know why, how? Tell me more. What did that, well, let's talk about that a little bit more.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  And in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts, why it hurts so much.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful. And they don't always last, but, but because of that, you, you don't end it without the hurt, you know? It is complicated.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a, a piece of you that you're giving so many of, I mean, so many of the women in my life know, things that I just would never share with them, that I've. As a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means like you mean a lot to me. And that I see a future with you. And automatically, if I deem you as a friend, then that's like for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable, or if I feel betrayed by you, that is devastating. And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend to begin with. And then ultimately was just like, oh, okay,

• 19:57Speaker 02

  I see the value in my life. But there was, there were tinges of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship. But it still felt like she was, in any version of this, I don't know, I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman. Is the way that I read it. And that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships, and hurts is strong. When there, when I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity, right? Because, you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that's, you know, that's always present.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Someone in every relationship is given a little more, given a little less, you know? Some people have more or less at a given time. I mean, people are complicated and flawed, and all of us are. And that is, has never been a problem for me. Like, the complicated nature of my friends, right? When I felt most, almost betrayed is when I felt like we're all at the table, giving, sharing, and you weren't. You were at the table. But it's sort of like, like, it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  There probably felt like a little emotional, you know? I felt emotionally robbed.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Because it was like, you weren't telling me.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  You weren't telling me, and you know, and maybe it's because you didn't trust me, you didn't trust yourself.

• 21:48Speaker 03

  See, she's still hot about it, can't you tell?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  But I'm just using it as an example in the table of, for me at least, that becomes more important. You know, and maybe it's because of who I am and trust and, you know, when you, and I let people in. So when I let people in, you're in.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  You know, and I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself. But that means, I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  That's so complicated.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Why?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  You really say, what's your problem?

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know,

• 22:50Speaker 03

  relationships ebb and flow. So it's rarely gonna be where everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't life always out of balance?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  I think I don't disagree with that.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  But there is the, if you're, if you're always showing up, if you're always the one that's like checking in, if you're, even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine. Like tickets to the games, I'm always one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you and you're not, like that's still, there's an imbalance. Like, I'm always thinking of you first, but you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not gonna show up for me in the same way that I show up for you.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  I mean, that, that, that's a problem, you know? If I, I don't mind hosting, I don't mind being, because oftentimes in my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one, I have the resources, I've got the, you know, I have more of the special, oh, guess what we can do? And there's a natural imbalance, but it's like, You, if you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner,

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Or whatever the equivalent of, I know your effort is, yes. Even if it's just pizza, like, girl, I know you like pizza and you invited me. This means a lot, you know? And I'm fine, I will meet you where you're at, because I know that this is your love language. But you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort. Or that you don't rank as high on their, on their list of friends.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  So what's your version of balanced in friendship?

• 24:32Speaker 03

  You know, I guess with me and my friends, because I, like you, I don't want to generalize. As long as every now and then, somebody else buys a round of drinks, or it's lightweight. You use tickets, that tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means. So inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing. Or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalency to me.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 25:09Speaker 03

  But what I, I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning. To your point, Issa, my friends and I don't, we don't roll that way. We're, we're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay. We're just, we don't go as deep. And like you were saying, how you're, it's sociology for women. It's not, it's carpentry for men, you know?

• 25:40Speaker 01

  It's shop.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  It's, it's, it's, I didn't want to say gym, but it's,

• 25:47Speaker 03

  we, we enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment. And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  To what extent? So like even if, I'm not getting in your business. But like for the divorce of it, right?

• 26:00Speaker 01

  We are getting in this business.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  For the divorce.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Two Capricorns.

• 26:05Speaker 03

  I told.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  We in your business.

• 26:07Speaker 03

  I told, like, I tell her everything. But what she left out, the reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would work out. Because if it didn't work out. And I got over it. She would never get over it.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  So I was trying to save everybody's relationship. Now, when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  You did go deep with it?

• 26:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  So you actually brought up, like, this is the thing that I'm going through.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Or did you, did you bring up, we're having problems and let's talk about, or did you wait until?

• 26:47Speaker 03

  Like I said at the outset, I waited until it was.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  You didn't go deep.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  But, but, no, see, now, see, there's no timing to it. I mean.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  But there is.

• 26:57Speaker 03

  So it was deep for me. It was deep for me, irrespective of the timing.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Just the mere fact that you told somebody, the obvious. You told your friends.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  That it happened.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  That it happened.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  That it's happening.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  That it's happening, not that it.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  So when you were going through it, right?

• 27:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  And it was hard, who did you talk to?

• 27:19Speaker 03

  I talked to two really good friends of mine.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  And we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday after the market stopped trading. And we'd have cigars and margaritas. And it was three of us. And we had one chair in the middle, so it was the whoever, and we called it the Chair of Angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the Chair of Angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the Chair of Angst for like seven months because I was going through this.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  And I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want, if, if I could somehow kick save this thing.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  That's fair.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  I could tell them after the fact, yeah, you know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family. And if I-

• 28:19Speaker 02

  He's right about that? Is he right?

• 28:20Speaker 01

  It's a sort of, it's sort of right. We would have been, but you know, you go, you do what your family needs at the time. You know, there's, there's, there's no way we, we wouldn't have gone through a recovery of things. It would just have been good to know that before it was like, everything's great and now everything is over. That's how we found out.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  That's how they found out. They found out.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  So, so it was like, what? How did, you know, it's sort of the, the sharpness of it.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  I'm not saying it's the, it was the right thing to do. It was a plan. That was my plan.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's why I think we were confused. Cause it sounded like you were, you did to them what you did to-

• 29:03Speaker 03

  No, what I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Okay, well that, but that's, you know.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  We, we, it's not like a friendship is, there's always something to dig into.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  But I find that in my friends, we always go in deep.

• 29:18Speaker 03

  There's always something to dig into.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Because we talk about everything and there's, there's just, there are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to like, oh, this happened to me and this is how I was affected by it. And there's just, and nothing is off limits and that's the beauty of it is just, you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You were the safe space or, and I didn't even see that it was a malicious space. Which, you know, getting back to this letter, it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this, to Eva. And Eva was like hit or miss.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  I'm not even sure.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  I don't even know if I like you, girl. I think you're cool, but, oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's, that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not? Are we, are we good or not? And now someone, something happened that's tragic and I, I think- You're one of the last people I heard from. So maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend? Right? I mean, I think, I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friend she is close with in real time.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  If she does have those in, you know, and this is what women do. Like, this would have happened to me in one friendship, and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, hey, hey.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, yes.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  This is what happened to me.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Am I messing up here?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Am I, did I, was I wrong, right? And the, the crew would be, they would dissect it. They would be IMO in real time, you know? And I, I think, you know, with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit, you know? Think a little bit because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic, and then in their letter with, I think this friendship is over, because it's not giving me enough. In this particular situation, she probably would check herself to say, you're right. I wasn't, I wasn't fully in this. I was ambivalent, and I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to the, to, to her friend.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  I have to say that I'm also guilty, because part of this also triggered me in a way, because I am guilty of, again, like you said, I am not a check-in every day type of person. I'm a very much, when, when I'm here, it's all about you. But I don't check in as often as I should with friends. And I've been, I've been told that in the past, and I've adjusted. But you just have to tell me, but it's not a natural instinct. And so. With this, I understand like Eva being like this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I can't, I'm not gonna be the same type of giving friend that you are to me,

• 32:27Speaker 02

  but I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there. And so that is, that would make me consider like, oh, am I, am I a bad friend? Because I don't think, I think about you, but I might not text you to be like, hey, I just wanna make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay and know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the, I'm not considerate.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be.

• 32:58Speaker 03

  That's a pronouncement there.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  It's, it's true. And it's like one of my biggest flaws. Because I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you, but not tell you that I'm thinking about you.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  Right, and that's fair.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  But that's also part of friendship, right? Because, you know, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend. And the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  You know, or she's busy, or, you know. And that's when you feel the security of friendship. Because you can completely show up as yourself, flaws and all. The inconsiderate or the, you know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not gonna be the one to call, cuz she just doesn't do that, you know? I'm not a great, you know, I don't, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  For the same.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Like, I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this. Or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And, and that was because of eight years also. I mean, you, you know, it's hard, it was hard to reach me for, for eight years without a whole lot of goings on. In order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  And over the years, I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am. Think people just assume, I don't want to bother you.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, same.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  You know, um, because I'm not going to bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff and I'm like, you didn't tell me. You know, I didn't want to bother you.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  And I, so that means I, I often have to bend over even more.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  To, to check in so people know that when things are tough, do not not call me.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Because I may not be able to do anything. Right. It's like, nah, I'm mad at you for that.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  I don't care that you're going through it. I'm mad at you.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Right, right. But you were going to say something before I cut you off.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  No, no, no. That, that was great. That, I, I, I appreciate that. And, and I also appreciate, now you see, she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  It wouldn't have lasted. It would. You know, Capricorns, we get mad, but it doesn't, we don't say that.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely not.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, you don't.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Can I ask you a question about the Chair of Angst?

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Did they, did they ask you questions or was it more of like a venting space?

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Was it, was it an inquiry?

• 35:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  It was, it was all of the above. Because sometimes the person who was in the Chair of Angst just needed to vent.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  And in the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, okay, is this really what's going on? Or is there anything we can do? Or what predicated this? And it was just, it was a give and take. It wasn't just a venting session. But it was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that, you know, that were deep and private that I didn't, I wasn't ready to share with the, the whole world.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  That's dope. But y'all had to make a whole construct with, with cigars and margaritas and whatnot.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  That's how my guys are.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Once you out the Chair of Angst, you can't be angry no more.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  No more questions. No more questions.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  No more questions, no more problems. That's it.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Well, but see, and that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me or your sister. We, we don't let it go.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  They don't let it go.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  You were never out of the chair. Because now I'm calling you and going, okay, what happened to that?

• 36:38Speaker 02

  What happened? Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  So not only do I have a sister, I have a wife. And, which has helped me communicate, right? Because I say all the time, our relationship, the relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28, I'm a better communicator, not just with women, but in general. Because I, I get it, I get it. There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't want to talk. But I have to be intentional about, she needs this.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  And you, and you needed to.

• 37:10Speaker 03

  Well, if I need it, I will go get it. But with my friends, it's, we, we never get there like that.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  So a friend has never disappointed you?

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Because you don't have expectations of them?

• 37:25Speaker 03

  No, friends have disappointed. But I, it doesn't injure me as deeply. And, and if your next question is, do I approach them and say, hey, you really disappointed me? I have. And I think that's why we keep our friendship.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends? Where they've approached you and said, hey, this is, you just show up in this way and I'm, I'm upset?

• 37:50Speaker 03

  I have not.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Have you, have you ended a friendship?

• 37:55Speaker 03

  At the risk of sounding cocky, I have not.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Oh, because you're a good, you're a good friend. I keep hitting this drum. Because you're a good friend.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  I hope that I am.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  You seem like you're a good friend.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  But it's, it is, it is.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  You have a sister, you have to be a good friend.

• 38:09Speaker 03

  It, it, but it's, it's, it's, it doesn't have to be deep friendship. It can be just below the surface.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  But I think you're, you, you allow people to just be comfortable with you. And I think that that, that is essential in a friendship. And you may not challenge them in a way. But if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going? Like keep them around? You'll never be like, hey, I kind of don't like hanging around. You kind of get on my nerves.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, so this is a really good question. And I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult. You know, after a certain period, I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as, as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends and they're gonna be my friends. And new people that I met, meet that I haven't known for a long time, who are friends, the shift to the right and they don't make the shift to the right, we just don't communicate as much.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I call that the slow ghost.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  She does. She calls it the slow ghost. It doesn't, it doesn't.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  It's not enough to have a conversation with because, you know, and do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy, you just sort of.

• 39:29Speaker 03

  Just let it, let it die on the vine.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Let it die in natural, quiet death.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  And, and, and, and which brings me to another point that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this, is that I don't mind being ghosted.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Me neither.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  I don't mind that.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  If it didn't matter.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  It, it, if it didn't matter, it didn't matter. I'm not, I'm not. But let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost and then a year later, the guy texts me and say, hey, I'mma be in town. Wanna go get a drink? I'll be like, yeah, sure.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  And you all are laughing, but that is how we operate. That is how we operate.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  I'll forgive him.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Just look at, the guys in here all smiling, trying not to get in trouble. They are trying for me not to get in trouble.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. I had too many people I messed with. Cause there's nothing worse than like, like having, sometimes you just don't have time and making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about. And then you have to like make plans together. If the slow ghost allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything, and it's, it's fine.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Ouch.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  But even with your friends, I'm sorry, your friends that you grew up with.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Inevitably, you guys, like you, you grow up, you become who you are supposed to be, right? There are no friends that you've grown up with, that you have, where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally, or they, you know, don't necessarily, we don't vibe the same anymore. There's never been that. And that thought has never crossed your mind.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  The guys who, like, say, grammar school people who were my friends, I'm still in touch with.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  And they've never, since grammar school?

• 41:19Speaker 03

  Since, since high school, first day of high school.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought?

• 41:31Speaker 03

  No, we fought, yeah. But it's, it's-

• 41:34Speaker 02

  It's not an emotional fight?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  There's no, I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like, there's just, there's not a lot going on.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  There's no emotional fight. You're talking about, I thought you were talking about like a fight, like-

• 41:46Speaker 02

  No, that's not, like, guys, to me, y'all will be like, buh buh buh, like, y'all will physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha, I'm the beta, that's it, and we're good for life.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  Let's go have a beer.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And no, if I, if I physically fight with my female friends, it's over.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  Well, you all don't physically fight.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  No, but in-

• 42:05Speaker 03

  But I get it, I get it.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  But the emotional fights allow you to get closer, or, you know, decide this isn't the right relationship.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  I just think it goes back to the, the level, you know? And again, this isn't true for everyone, but even just watching my, my brother, it's like, you know, your, your friends sort of hover around the surface. And it's real, meaningful friendships, but they, they're, they're, they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Until there is a crisis, then we go deep.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, it's, it's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff.

• 42:43Speaker 03

  Go straight to death, we're not the funeral.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Because that's what a crisis is for these superficial friendships. There's gotta be like a thing that happens.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  It could be something going on with your kids, or it could be a divorce, or it could be, you know, a car accident.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Something super dire.

• 42:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, a crisis, but it's not-

• 43:01Speaker 01

  And a crisis for women is just like-

• 43:03Speaker 03

  Every day.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Don't be like that.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  You know. Like I

• 43:09Speaker 03

  Oh man, I'm gonna get it when I get home.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Example, because my husband doesn't fully understand it and he's got great friends, friends that he has since high school. I know his friends, meaningful. But when I'm, when a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you gotta stay for two days because it's going to take us

• 43:31Speaker 02

  So much time to have to

• 43:32Speaker 01

  to check up, right? And we're not planning anything. We're gonna sit right here and we will be here.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Too many rules.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  I've got, no, but it's not even a rule.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  It's just kicking it.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  And this is what it's gonna take.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  You gotta stay for two days.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  So I'll have one of my good girlfriends over, spending the night, friends with Barack.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Oh, heaven.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Love, all that. We're, we sit on a couch, we trans, there's something in front of us, tea, crackers, move to wine, you know, but we get up at 10 a.m. And we start the check in.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Ah, that sounds beautiful.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  And it begins with, first of all, girl, how you? You know, tell me about you. Now, now, now that's an hour. Just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in, right? Hour two is like, okay, what about work? And tell me about, because we know all about it. Remember that HR person you were gonna let go? What happened with that girl?

• 44:24Speaker 02

  She's still there?

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  What?

• 44:26Speaker 01

  What did she do next? And then you gotta give an example of what she did. Now, now it's lunchtime, right? On, on day one. Now Barack has come in, he's come out and he's like, y'all still talking? And he'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how are the boys?

• 44:41Speaker 02

  He's interrupting the play.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  You're contributing nothing.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  You just interrupted the time.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  You know? And then it's three o'clock and he's like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend, we each have two kids. That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  It's 48 hours, because each kid has, you know, we know the issues and the things we've, you know, now we're at dinner on day one, right? So this is what I'm saying, and my husband is like, how, what are you all talking about all day? And it's like, we're not eat, we're just scratching the surface.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  And do you know that it's so, oh my, it feels so good after.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  It's just like, there's no better feeling than like, I just got, ugh, I reconnected with my girl. She knows everything. I've been holding, I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it. Like, I can't tell, like, there's, there's friendship. There's, even in my groups, there's my friends who, if I want to be mad at someone, and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her. Cause she's never gonna, she's never gonna tell me I'm wrong. It's always, yeah, girl, okay, who we?

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  She's a, you know, like, yeah.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I needed that.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need, I need to know.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  The truth.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Yes, I need to know the truth. I need to know that I'm not it and they're gonna give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just like, gonna listen and I could grab, but everybody has a function in some way and they're just, it's just, it's cathartic. It's so, it's so beautiful and that's why I'm just.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  And the flip side of my, my husband, right? Cause he golfs and golfing takes as long as the first session of our, you know, it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X? He's good. He's like, what'd y'all talk about? Nothing. And I was like, I will have heard like, like somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X? Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, what? You were golfing all day.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  And it never came up.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Never came up. You never asked about our godson. For example, you're with his father, how is he? I don't know. I think he's good. It's like, what, what were you all doing? Sitting in a cart?

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Talking about.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  You know, and I'm like.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Literally nothing.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Y'all have no information and that's the difference because you'll be with each other all day, looking directly away from each other at a ball, right? Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned, we are physically turned in towards one another. Feet off comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, there are tears. It's like, and that can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt when, when you break up or somebody's gonna get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Intimacy.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Intimacy.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  I maintain.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:40Speaker 03

  That the chair of angst with me, Jimmy and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Okay. I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Cause you're also not, it also has to be around a crisis, right?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:02Speaker 03

  It does. It, it, it takes a crisis to get it going.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  This is also why women live longer, I think, man, because we're getting a lot of that out.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  And not to take it there, but y'all keep it in here.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  We do.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Like the crisis would require an emergency session.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Like somebody's on a train.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, flying.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  You know, there's, there's movement and you're not gonna deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming, we're coming. It's a crisis.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house, bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is, took off work.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  That is a script. That is something where you could write on television.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Plan and doing a text, like, you know, she's not gonna be good. Like, she's, she doesn't need this right now, you know?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 48:48Speaker 03

  You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Not a crisis. Obviously, not a crisis.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Sorry.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Or the dog emojis.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  I didn't know you had a dog.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog?

• 49:03Speaker 03

  Okay, we are, we are, we are mad. That is.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  One of my friends was talking about how guys don't know how to express.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Thought you had a cat.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Guys in texts don't know how to express the emotions and use emojis like the wrong, like, ah, y'all, I lost my aunt. Dang, fire emoji, ghost emoji.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  You just don't have the language for it.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings. You're so disconnected from feelings. I don't know what they are, but I'm, I'm 60.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Trying to give you something.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  So, I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. And so why do we have emotion OGs? They, they're literal. It's like, hot dog, hot dog, I'm hungry. I want lunch.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Fire is like.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issue seriously.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, I forgot about Eva, not right.

• 50:02Speaker 03

  No, we almost.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Well, she lost the friend.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  I know.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  But, well, is it possible to set boundaries?

• 50:13Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  In a friendship that's unbalanced?

• 50:17Speaker 02

  That's how I'm like, you have to be honest about like, hey, girl, like, um, I have a lot on my plate and I'm, that's hard to say.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Because I was, yeah, I was gonna say like, I just wanna be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about like, hey, cuz I have been, I feel like I give you more energy than I have just been like, I blamed it on work, I blamed it on, I'm busy, but I haven't said, I don't wanna devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse and they can choose to pleasantly ghost me and I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me because you, you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend. And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are higher tier friends

• 51:09Speaker 02

  that like do get your time and energy, that you do consider those people. Or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends. Um, and that's a whole different situation. But I don't, I'm confused by the loss because you had this person who cared about you, invested in you, that that is kinda selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's, it's fair to set boundaries, but I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you wanna be? How do you, how do you wanna show up?

• 51:38Speaker 01

  You know, and, and the honesty first has to be within yourself. You know, I mean, I think both of us probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want. And, you know, and even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't, you know, we don't spend that time cuz we're pouring that energy out, like, I'm, I'm, I understand you before I understand me.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  And it's, that's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know,

• 52:09Speaker 02

  That's so real.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  without opening themselves up cuz that's hard, you know? And maybe what I would say to Eva is, maybe it's time for her to just, she's asking, do some personal reflection. About what does she want in friendship? Um, and how does she want to show up? How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and is is somebody who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  And make some friends with some guys.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Right, or or, you know, be okay. Then understand that there will be times and then that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this and we're not. You hurt my feelings and it's over.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Right? And not take it to heart. If that's the kind of friend you are, because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you gotta take stock about how you wanna, how you need to show up for people.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  And what's what's an example of that? How showing up? Is that just? I hear, I hear communication.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But understanding who your friend is and what they need.

• 53:22Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Like, you know, being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need. And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship. Sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. And with friends, you don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner. But you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then. And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend. And so you gotta, you know, you, you, you're gonna have to give people what they need to get at some point to get what you need. It's this, it's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management? Is it, you know, um,

• 54:08Speaker 03

  Brutal honesty.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Is it acts of service? Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I, I value people's honest emotional vulnerability. That, that means a lot to me.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  But even hearing you say this, there's, you also have to have the recognition.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  That maybe you're also not compatible. Because some of it, some friendships, the most beautiful friendships are just instinctive. They're instinctual, like you.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  You don't have to.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  You don't have to try. You are the yin to the yang. You fit in like puzzle pieces. And then there, you know, when there are missteps, you can talk about them comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're offending. And this feels like, very much like Eva had to try too hard.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  To be something she was not.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  To be something that she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself. But the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that. And the worst friendships I've had, that have, I've silently ghosted her, that have silently ghosted me, it was hard to manage. Like there were just, there was always something and it felt uncomfortable. So, yeah, being honest with yourself about that is crucial.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  And how old is Eva again?

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was wondering that too.

• 55:28Speaker 04

  Thirty-two.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Thirty-two? Oh yeah, this is when people start falling off, girl. Your 30s is like when it whittles down to who's gonna be there. And does she have kids?

• 55:39Speaker 04

  No.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  And it's gonna whittle even more, you know? If she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes. Anyway, I think that's also what I would say to Eva. It's like, this is life.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  You know? And like she said in her letter, friends aren't family, you know? And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not, you know? Friends will, there are seasons for friends. And who knows? In their 40s or 50s, they may reconnect, you know?

• 56:09Speaker 03

  So this is perfect because I'm thinking, back to Eva, one of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to end the relationship. If you want it to be another way, based, I'm learning from you all. If I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I gotta go to the person and say, hey, look, this is what I want out of a relationship. And if they can't provide it, then we gotta think about it ending.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Well, and that's what her friend essentially did, you know?

• 56:43Speaker 02

  But her friend did it during the breakup. I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like,

• 56:47Speaker 01

  And said beforehand, I feel.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is what I need from a relationship. I feel like this is unbalanced. It seems like she was like, this is the last draw. Like, my relative died, you didn't show up, this has been unbalanced. And maybe, maybe it became clear to her in that moment, which I think she said.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, she did.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  All of a sudden, you ain't shit.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  Like, I realized that. And that's just, that's the way the cookie comes. I wonder if Eva also fought for it.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Doesn't, it sounds like she's in contemplation about it.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  About fighting for it?

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Or letting it go. It sounds, it feels like she's let it go. It feels like she didn't fight for it. But I don't think we have that.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  Do you guys do follow?

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Well, we could, you know?

• 57:29Speaker 02

  I need to know.

• 57:30Speaker 03

  Well, let's, let's figure out a couple, three things that we can tell Eva, and then maybe we could figure out a follow up with her.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Well, one of the things, I think you mentioned it, is if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, hey, guys, how do I?

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Am I selling my secret?

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Take it to your counsel.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  What are the ways that I don't show up? Have I been a bad, bad friend? And like, use that to become a better friend.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  I completely agree with that. And also, you know, be easy on yourself. You're 32, this is how it goes. You know, people come, people go. You know, even hurts can be healed because, you know, who, who knows where you'll be when you're 50? You know, life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows. And in, in the meantime, I, what I would tell her is, use this as an opportunity, since you're bothered by it, to figure out how you can grow.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no expectation of a response. If you, if you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology, say where you're coming from, and...

• 58:53Speaker 02

  Let that person know, hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that you, I really valued you. I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way. The door is still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again, but feel free not to respond. I just wanted to get this off. Like, if you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 59:14Speaker 03

  I like that, too. But you know what I like even more is when Issa said, "Just get a guy friend."

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Honestly, you want a low-maintenance relationship.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  You want a low-maintenance relationship. Get a guy friend.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Get a guy friend. And don't worry, you don't have to even know if he has a dog.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  Eva, we really care about you.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  No, for real.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  You'll be good, girl.

• 59:37Speaker 03

  You'll be all right.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  This is, this is how, as you said, Issa, the cookie crumbles. Life is like this. But this has been fun.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is so fun. What's the next letter?

• 59:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, come on.

• 59:52Speaker 03

  Got that one down. Thank you so much.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:00:14Jonathan Fields?

  That was a preview of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. You can find more episodes wherever you get podcasts.